The meaning of "2 cents"
gmax2006
I guess when somebody says:
"This is my 2 cents"
It means he gives me his opinion. But I don't know the exact meaning
and also in which context should I use it.
Any help would be appreciated,
Max
Lars Eighner
<1152908592.5...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented gmax2006
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Hi,
> I guess when somebody says:
> "This is my 2 cents"
> It means he gives me his opinion. But I don't know the exact meaning
You just said the exact meaning, although "2-cents-worth" is more common.
> and also in which context should I use it.
It is an informal expression.
> Any help would be appreciated,
> Max
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
If you have one strong idea, you can't help repeating it and embroidering it.
Sometimes I think that authors should write one novel and then be
put in a gas chamber. --John P. Marquand
Tony Cooper
<mapsetah200...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I guess when somebody says:
>
>"This is my 2 cents"
>
>It means he gives me his opinion. But I don't know the exact meaning
>and also in which context should I use it.
>
It does mean he's offering you his opinion, but he's putting a low
value on it to indicate that his opinion might not be worth much in
this area.
"I think you should take an art course, but that's just my two cents"
means the person saying this thinks you would do well in or gain from
a course in art, but he realizes this is your decision and not his.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
John Dean
> In our last episode,
> <1152908592.5...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> the lovely and talented gmax2006
> broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
>> Hi,
>
>> I guess when somebody says:
>
>> "This is my 2 cents"
>
>> It means he gives me his opinion. But I don't know the exact meaning
>
> You just said the exact meaning, although "2-cents-worth" is more
> common.
>
>> and also in which context should I use it.
>
> It is an informal expression.
>
>> Any help would be appreciated,
"Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth" ("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem
to have come into use around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
if anyone can establish precedence and if they just growed or one derived
from t'other.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Hatunen
It carries a connotation of humility, as well, as in "my humble
opinion".
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
tinwhistler
John Dean wrote:
> "Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth" ("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem
> to have come into use around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
> if anyone can establish precedence and if they just growed or one derived
> from t'other.
An 1826 journal article had the vow of a Masonry candidate in which the
candidate vowed not to wrong the Lodge or a Brother "to the value of
two cents" - this strange qualification in the secret society's
procedure could have been a source of commentary, gossip, etc, creating
the popularization of the phrase "two cents:"
[Excerpt] "...Furthermore do I promise and swear, that I will not
wrong this Lodge, nor a Brother of this degree, to the value of two
cents knowingly, myself, nor suffer it to be done by others if in my
power to prevent it...."
Since Freemasonry was (and is, but maybe to a lesser extent) in vogue
on both sides of the pond, that could explain why the popular usage
seems to have arisen on both sides at about the same time.
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented tinwhistler broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> John Dean wrote:
>> "Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth" ("Two pennorth" et al, UK)
>> seem to have come into use around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting
>> to know if anyone can establish precedence and if they just growed or one
>> derived from t'other.
There is something seriously wrong with the MWCD11 entry for "two cents or
two cents worth" which is dated to ca. 1939.
I cannot find "two cents" or "two cents worth" for an opinion before the
20th century. I find "two cents" as the price of things that are cheap or
nearly worthless -- or more often as wages sought for doing something one is
already inclined to do -- well back into the 19th Century (when, of course,
two cents actually could buy something) as in the following:
> An 1826 journal article had the vow of a Masonry candidate in which the
> candidate vowed not to wrong the Lodge or a Brother "to the value of
> two cents" - this strange qualification in the secret society's
> procedure could have been a source of commentary, gossip, etc, creating
> the popularization of the phrase "two cents:"
> [Excerpt] "...Furthermore do I promise and swear, that I will not
> wrong this Lodge, nor a Brother of this degree, to the value of two
> cents knowingly, myself, nor suffer it to be done by others if in my
> power to prevent it...."
> Since Freemasonry was (and is, but maybe to a lesser extent) in vogue
> on both sides of the pond, that could explain why the popular usage
> seems to have arisen on both sides at about the same time.
But MWCD11, which is supposedly organized on historic principles, lists the
sense of an opinion first and the sense of a thing of dubious value second
while dating the whole to 1939 (clearly off by about a century). That
cannot be correct because in the above from 1826 it has the second sense (as
it does in citations following).
However, for the opinion sense, it gives this as a usage illustration (not a
citation) "<send your _two_ _cents_' _worth_ to your senator>." That does
suggest to me the possibility that in the sense of a (perhaps unsolicited)
opinion, the cost of postage might have had something to do with it. (I
don't infer any endorsement of this theory from MW's usage illustration.)
(not really on point, but I liked it:)
beer that lay in barrels set outside of the saloons; and after he had
doctored it with chemicals to make it "fizz," he sold it for two cents a
can, the purchase of a can including the privilege of sleeping the night
--The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair
"By jingo! for two cents I WILL do it."
--The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, by Mark Twain
old Thatcher so to his face. Lots of 'em heard me, and can tell what I
said. Says I, for two cents I'd leave the blamed country and never come
a-near it agin. Them's the very words. I says look at my hat--if you
--The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain
"My gun? ... For two cents I'd have shipped her to our Filipeens. 'Came
mighty near it too; but from what I'd read in the papers, you can't trust
--Traffics and Discoveries, by Rudyard Kipling
same scene is now transpiring in New York, Chicago, St.
Louis, and rival business centres! For two cents, I would try a
flutter with the boys myself," he cried, rubbing his hands; "only
--The Wrecker, by Robert Louis Stevenson and Lloyd Osbourne
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. --Jonathan Swift
Donna Richoux
> There is something seriously wrong with the MWCD11 entry for "two cents or
> two cents worth" which is dated to ca. 1939.
>
> I cannot find "two cents" or "two cents worth" for an opinion before the
> 20th century.
Interesting.
> I find "two cents" as the price of things that are cheap or
> nearly worthless -- or more often as wages sought for doing something one is
> already inclined to do -- well back into the 19th Century (when, of course,
> two cents actually could buy something)
Yes, Literaturepost turns up a great quantity of those, where "two
cents" is a proverbial small amount, especially "For two cents I'd..."
meaning the least push it would take to provoke the speaker into doing
something. More examples like the ones you provide:
Under the Lilacs by Alcott, Louisa May - Chapter 13
"I wouldn't give two cents for such a slow old place
as this.
The Jacket Star-Rover by London, Jack - Chapter 14
"For two cents I'll put you back in the jacket," he
broke in
I have this feeling that "For two pins" is an even older proverbial
expression of the same idea. We just talked about the age and worth of
pins a week or two ago.
>>as in the following:
>
> > An 1826 journal article had the vow of a Masonry candidate in which the
> > candidate vowed not to wrong the Lodge or a Brother "to the value of
> > two cents" - this strange qualification in the secret society's
> > procedure could have been a source of commentary, gossip, etc, creating
> > the popularization of the phrase "two cents:"
>
> >
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&xc=1&idn
o=ahk6870.0001.001&g=moagrp&q1=two+cents&frm=frameset&view=text&seq=39
>
> > [Excerpt] "...Furthermore do I promise and swear, that I will not
> > wrong this Lodge, nor a Brother of this degree, to the value of two
> > cents knowingly, myself, nor suffer it to be done by others if in my
> > power to prevent it...."
>
> > Since Freemasonry was (and is, but maybe to a lesser extent) in vogue
> > on both sides of the pond, that could explain why the popular usage
> > seems to have arisen on both sides at about the same time.
>
> But MWCD11, which is supposedly organized on historic principles, lists the
> sense of an opinion first and the sense of a thing of dubious value second
> while dating the whole to 1939 (clearly off by about a century).
You may be right. They may have erred in putting the "opinion"
definition first and should have put "small sum" definition first.
Unless they found some evidence that doesn't turn up for us.
I don't see that the Masonry dogma has anything to do with it, though.
It's *not* an example of "two cents worth" meaning "humble opinion."
Furthermore, Mason lore is secret society stuff, it's not supposed to be
spoken of in general society, so the mention of two cents in their
documents just doesn't seem important.
Literaturepost has two hits for "two cents worth":
The Innocents Abroad by Twain, Mark - Chapter 29
[In Naples] One can not buy and pay for two cents'
worth of clams without trouble and a quarrel.
Martin Eden by London, Jack - Chapter 3
was his thought; "too miserly to burn two cents'
worth of gas and save his boarders' necks."
So, both refer to literally possible purchases, of a tiny amount. We're
still missing something that gets us to the 1939 use.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
tinwhistler
Donna Richoux wrote:
> So, both refer to literally possible purchases, of a tiny amount. We're
> still missing something that gets us to the 1939 use.
FWIW, an earlier AUE post dates it to the 19th century:
Lars Eighner
<1152983302....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Donna Richoux wrote:
Pity there are no citations. I see, however, that my postage theory has
appeared before.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail
better. --Samuel Beckett
tinwhistler
> I see, however, that my postage theory has
> appeared before.
Your postage theory has a near parallel with the phrase, "green ink
brigade," apparently a reference to one or more frequent writers to
newspaper editors who use green ink (some say this is an oblique
reference to Prince Charles).
Donna Richoux
That post just refers to the AUE FAQ entry, which is worth knowing about
but does not give any 19th century evidence -- it merely asserts that
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxputino.html
This expression meaning "to contribute one's opinion" dates from
the late nineteenth century.
Mark Israel did not say such things lightly, but it would be nice if he
had backed it up.
The postage theory is very nice -- sorry if I missed it before. If the
idea was, as much of one's thought as can fit on a postcard, then that
does match. If any of our ProQuest Patrol are reading this, maybe they
can find the earliest use of "two cents' worth" to mean an opinion, in
their archives. (Although the phrase "a penny postcard" is coming to the
front of my mind...)
Richard Maurer
"Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth"
("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem to have come into use
around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
if anyone can establish precedence and if they
just growed or one derived from t'other.
What then do we make of this earlier line,
from _The Poetaster_ , Act 3, by Ben Jonson?
I will not, my good two-penny rascal;
reach me thy neuf.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna Richoux
> John Dean wrote:
> "Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth"
> ("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem to have come into use
> around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
> if anyone can establish precedence and if they
> just growed or one derived from t'other.
>
> What then do we make of this earlier line,
> from _The Poetaster_ , Act 3, by Ben Jonson?
>
> I will not, my good two-penny rascal;
> reach me thy neuf.
Well, "worthless rascal" comes to mind, or "worth little." But what's a
neuf? Besides French for nine.
The full text of the play is at
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ptstr10.txt
Besides your quote, he also has "you twopenny tear-mouth" and "two-penny
rooms." I can't get "neuf" from context, though.
Robert Bannister
> Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>
>
>>There is something seriously wrong with the MWCD11 entry for "two cents or
>>two cents worth" which is dated to ca. 1939.
>>
>>I cannot find "two cents" or "two cents worth" for an opinion before the
>>20th century.
>
>
> Interesting.
>
>
>>I find "two cents" as the price of things that are cheap or
>>nearly worthless -- or more often as wages sought for doing something one is
>>already inclined to do -- well back into the 19th Century (when, of course,
>>two cents actually could buy something)
>
>
> Yes, Literaturepost turns up a great quantity of those, where "two
> cents" is a proverbial small amount, especially "For two cents I'd..."
> meaning the least push it would take to provoke the speaker into doing
> something. More examples like the ones you provide:
>
> Under the Lilacs by Alcott, Louisa May - Chapter 13
> "I wouldn't give two cents for such a slow old place
> as this.
I wonder whether "I wouldn't give tuppence" might be even older.
>
> I have this feeling that "For two pins" is an even older proverbial
> expression of the same idea. We just talked about the age and worth of
> pins a week or two ago.
I like the "two pins" suggestion, which does seem to be parallel.
--
Rob Bannister
Isabelle Cecchini
> Richard Maurer <rcpb1_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> John Dean wrote:
>> "Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth"
>> ("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem to have come into use
>> around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
>> if anyone can establish precedence and if they
>> just growed or one derived from t'other.
>>
>> What then do we make of this earlier line,
>> from _The Poetaster_ , Act 3, by Ben Jonson?
>>
>> I will not, my good two-penny rascal;
>> reach me thy neuf.
>
> Well, "worthless rascal" comes to mind, or "worth little." But what's a
> neuf? Besides French for nine.
>
> The full text of the play is at
> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ptstr10.txt
A glossary can be found at the end of that text, in which "neuf" is
explained:
NEUF (NEAF, NEIF), fist.
I suppose that the meaning of "reach me thy neuf" is the same as "give
me thy hand"", uttered elsewhere in the play by the same character.
>
> Besides your quote, he also has "you twopenny tear-mouth" and "two-penny
> rooms." I can't get "neuf" from context, though.
>
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Donna Richoux
> Donna Richoux wrote:
[snip discussion of "for two cents" etc]
> >
> > I have this feeling that "For two pins" is an even older proverbial
> > expression of the same idea. We just talked about the age and worth of
> > pins a week or two ago.
>
> I like the "two pins" suggestion, which does seem to be parallel.
I thought Literaturepost had early references for "two pins," but
looking at them carefully, I see they are all late 19th-early 20th
century: D.H. Lawrence, P.G. Wodehouse, E.M. Forster... the oldest one
is from 1870, and American, too:
An Old Fashioned Girl by Alcott, Louisa May - Chapter 4
"Most girls don't care two pins about their brothers;
The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs has only the singular "pin"
under "care not a pin." But they also show "a button" and "a straw' as
proverbial objects that something is below caring or without worth --
and for straws it can be two or three, in the 19th century on:
1834 He does not care two straws for her
1861 Drysdale, who didn't care three straws about...
I find this interesting to untangle, but it doesn't get us back to the
"For two cents, I'd..." nor to "Here's my two cents' worth."
The other literary image I am reminded of, by "pins," is in "Penrod"
(1915) by Booth Tarkington, which is on-line. The boys put on a show and
make this sign:
SCHoFiELD & WiLLiAMS
BiG SHOW
ADMiSSioN 1 CENT oR 20 PiNS
MUSUEM oF CURioSiTES
...[They obtained] a most satisfactory audience, although,
subsequent to Miss Rennsdale and governess, admission was wholly by
pin.
[Penrod announced a second showing:] "RE-MEM-BUR the price is only
one cent, the tenth part of a dime, or twenty pins, no bent ones
taken."
...all of the first audience returned, most of them having occupied
the interval in hasty excursions for more pins; Miss Rennsdale and
governess, however, again paying coin of the Republic and receiving
deference and the best seats accordingly.
[Later] ...perhaps because of sated curiosity, perhaps on account
of a pin famine, the attendance began to languish.
John Dean
Hey - pins cost money ya know.
I note the Eggcorn database already has the obvious mishearing:
http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/398/sense/
"Sorry this is so long, but I felt compelled to add my two sense worth"
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> Donna Richoux a écrit :
>> Richard Maurer <rcpb1_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Dean wrote:
>>> "Two cents worth" (US) and "two pennyworth"
>>> ("Two pennorth" et al, UK) seem to have come into use
>>> around the same time - mid 19th C. Interesting to know
>>> if anyone can establish precedence and if they
>>> just growed or one derived from t'other.
>>>
>>> What then do we make of this earlier line,
>>> from _The Poetaster_ , Act 3, by Ben Jonson?
>>>
>>> I will not, my good two-penny rascal;
>>> reach me thy neuf.
>>
>> Well, "worthless rascal" comes to mind, or "worth little." But
>> what's a neuf? Besides French for nine.
>>
>> The full text of the play is at
>> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ptstr10.txt
>
> A glossary can be found at the end of that text, in which "neuf" is
> explained:
>
> NEUF (NEAF, NEIF), fist.
>
> I suppose that the meaning of "reach me thy neuf" is the same as "give
> me thy hand"", uttered elsewhere in the play by the same character.
OED identifies it as "erron. form of neaf, nieve, fist."
"neuf" (in English) was properly a sword knot - from Old French "neuf".
variant of "nou" which led to modern "n½ud" which I always copy and paste
because I don't trust myself to spell it.
The significance in "Poetaster" really does seem to be "fist". Tucca is
abusing Histrio and trying to pick a quarrel:
Tuc. ...an you stage me, stinkard, your mansions
shall sweat for't, your tabernacles, varlets, your Globes, and your
Triumphs.
Hist. Not we, by Phoebus, captain; do not do us imputation without
desert.
Tuc. I will not, my good twopenny rascal; reach me thy neuf. Dost
hear?
The later usage seems to indicate the quarrel is resolved without violence:
Hist. If I have exhibited wrong, I'll tender satisfaction, captain.
Tuc. Say'st thou so, honest vermin! Give me thy hand; thou shalt
make us a supper one of these nights.
(In the Gutenberg version there's also a usage of "neufts": "sting him, my
little neufts" which the footnote identifies as "newts" (as does OED).)
Imagine the Cowardly Lion saying "reach me thy neuf" instead of "pudd 'em
up, pudd 'em up" and I think we're in the zone.
--
John Dean
Oxford
tinwhistler
> Furthermore, Mason lore is secret society stuff, it's not supposed to be
> spoken of in general society,
The 1826 book (I called it a "journal article" in error) is in the
public domain. If it's public, what moral code informs us against
speaking about it? Does the free marketplace of ideas proscribe
speaking about secret cults (say Scientology)? When gays had their
code-word question, "Are you a friend of Dorothy's" become too widely
known, they may have replaced it -- I'll respect the secrecy of any
replacement if I learn of it ahead of the general public. But I feel
no moral restraint about referring to the one now publicly known -- why
should I? ("Friends of Dorothy" is a registered trademark for a San
Francisco travel agency.)
Donna Richoux
I wasn't wondering whether it's OK for us to talk about it. My point was
that if this stuff was generally kept secret *at the time* then it
couldn't have had a tremendous influence on the language of the society
*of the time.*
Donna Richoux
Did we have the price of newspapers as a theory yet?
F. Scott Fitzgerald, This Side of Paradise. 1920.
"...Any rich, unprogressive old party with that
particularly grasping, acquisitive form of mentality
known as financial genius can own a paper that is
the intellectual meat and drink of thousands of
tired, hurried men, men too involved in the business
of modern living to swallow anything but predigested
food. For two cents the voter buys his politics,
prejudices, and philosophy. A year later there is a
new political ring or a change in the paper's
ownership, consequence: more confusion, more
contradiction, a sudden inrush of new ideas, their
tempering, their distillation, the reaction against
them --"
tinwhistler
Donna Richoux wrote:
> I wasn't wondering whether it's OK for us to talk about it. My point was
> that if this stuff was generally kept secret *at the time* then it
> couldn't have had a tremendous influence on the language of the society
> *of the time.*
Au contraire, I'm thinking that secrets like "Deep Throat" become
widely talked about and broadly influential in our society once their
existence is leaked. That Masonry criterion of two cents' value would
look very strange in 1826 and probably generated lots of talk when
publicized in the book. The events surrounding the publication of the
book gained tremendous notoriety -- the author was abducted by group of
Masons, according to accounts I've seen.
tinwhistler
tinwhistler wrote:
These excerpts from a Wikipedia article support my argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morgan_(anti-Mason)
[Wikipedia: The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article is
disputed.]
William Morgan was a resident of Batavia, New York, whose disappearance
in 1826 sparked a powerful anti-Freemason movement in the United
States....Soon after Morgan disappeared, Miller published his book,
which became a best-seller ... some members of the Batavia lodge
responded to Morgan's "betrayal" by publishing an advertisement
denouncing Morgan, and several attempts were made by unknown
individuals to set fire to Miller's newspaper office. ...Despite the
prompt disavowal of the actions of the kidnapers by the Masonic
hierarchy, all Masons found themselves being criticised. Under the
leadership of a New York politician named Thurlow Weed, an anti-Masonic
and anti-Andrew Jackson (Jackson was a Mason) movement was formed, the
Anti-Masonic political party, which ran a candidate for the presidency
in 1828, gaining the support of such politicians as William H. Seward,
and Howard Thinser.[citations?] Its influence was such that other
Jackson rivals, including John Quincy Adams, joined in denouncing the
Masons. Adams in 1847 wrote a widely distributed book titled "Letters
on the Masonic Institution" that was highly critical of the Masons.
...On September 13, 1882 a large monument to Morgan was unveiled in the
Batavia City cemetery by the National Christian Association, a group
opposed to secret societies. The ceremony was witnessed by a 1,000
people including representatives from local masonic lodges.[9] The
monument reads: "Sacred to the memory of Wm. Morgan, a native of
Virginia, a Capt. in the War of 1812, a respectable citizen of Batavia,
and a martyr to the freedom of writing, printing and speaking the
truth. He was abducted from near this spot in the year 1826, by
Freemasons and murdered for revealing the secrets of their order. The
court records of Genesee County, and the files of the Batavia Advocate,
kept in the Recorders office contain the history of the events that
caused the erection of this monument."
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>
> [snip discussion of "for two cents" etc]
>
>>>I have this feeling that "For two pins" is an even older proverbial
>>>expression of the same idea. We just talked about the age and worth of
>>>pins a week or two ago.
>>
>>I like the "two pins" suggestion, which does seem to be parallel.
>
>
> I thought Literaturepost had early references for "two pins," but
> looking at them carefully, I see they are all late 19th-early 20th
> century: D.H. Lawrence, P.G. Wodehouse, E.M. Forster... the oldest one
> is from 1870, and American, too:
>
> An Old Fashioned Girl by Alcott, Louisa May - Chapter 4
> "Most girls don't care two pins about their brothers;
>
> The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs has only the singular "pin"
> under "care not a pin." But they also show "a button" and "a straw' as
> proverbial objects that something is below caring or without worth --
> and for straws it can be two or three, in the 19th century on:
I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps, then, they were just euphemisms for
"two figs", which was itself a euphemism for something ruder.
--
Rob Bannister
Isabelle Cecchini
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>> Donna Richoux a écrit :
>>> what's a neuf? Besides French for nine.
>>>
>>> The full text of the play is at
>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ptstr10.txt
>> A glossary can be found at the end of that text, in which "neuf" is
>> explained:
>>
>> NEUF (NEAF, NEIF), fist.
>>
>> I suppose that the meaning of "reach me thy neuf" is the same as "give
>> me thy hand"", uttered elsewhere in the play by the same character.
>
> OED identifies it as "erron. form of neaf, nieve, fist."
> "neuf" (in English) was properly a sword knot - from Old French "neuf".
>
> The significance in "Poetaster" really does seem to be "fist". Tucca is
> abusing Histrio and trying to pick a quarrel:
Tucca is using wonderfully colourful abusive language, but I don't think
he's trying to pick up a quarrel: Histrio is obviously no match for him,
and consistently behaves in a very humble manner.
> Tuc. ...an you stage me, stinkard, your mansions
> shall sweat for't, your tabernacles, varlets, your Globes, and your
> Triumphs.
That line certainly sounds like a challenge.
> Hist. Not we, by Phoebus, captain;
Histrio protests that he has no intention of "staging" Tucca, which
would indeed be foolhardy of him, and tries to defuse Tucca's anger:
> do not do us imputation without
> desert.
which I take to mean: "Do not accuse us of doing something we have never
done and have no intention of doing."
> Tuc. I will not, my good twopenny rascal;
I read "I will not" as "I will not do you imputation without desert", "I
will not accuse you of harbouring such an intention". I don't think it
means "I will" = "I will go on accusing you without any base for it."
> reach me thy neuf.
=Let's shake hands on that, old chap! (BrE)
=Gimme five! (AmE)
> Dost hear?
What comes next shows that Tucca has already gone on to something else:
he is starting some (mock) negotiations to have two actors hired by Histrio.
> The later usage seems to indicate the quarrel is resolved without violence:
>
> Hist. If I have exhibited wrong, I'll tender satisfaction, captain.
>
> Tuc. Say'st thou so, honest vermin! Give me thy hand; thou shalt
> make us a supper one of these nights.
[...]
Yabbut, that exchange doesn't occur after, but before the passage about
which we have been exercising our wits.
I'm wondering whether all that talk about giving one's hand might not
also be related with the giving and taking of money, as it's one of the
themes of the scene.
> Imagine the Cowardly Lion saying "reach me thy neuf" instead of "pudd 'em
> up, pudd 'em up" and I think we're in the zone.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
"I do believe in ghosts! I do, I do, I do believe in ghosts!"
Donna Richoux
with Merriam-Webster dating the "opinion" meaning of "two cents' worth"
to ca. 1939. Namely, the first citations for that meaning are from a
1937 novel and a 1940 government report, along with a third possible in
a 1940 script (though with an indeterminate meaning):
The Laurels are Cut Down - Page 308 by Archie Binns - 1937 - 332
pages Listen, Tucker, you may have reason for personal feelings.
But in a national emergency we can't have everyone putting in his
two cents' worth. ...
Special Committee to Investigate the National Labor Relations Board
- 1940 They did the job; I didn't have anything -- I didn't do
anything after giving my "two cents" worth of advice as to the
means of obtaining evidence of that kind
The Installment Plan: A Comedy in Three Acts - Page 84 by Roscoe J.
Lonsway - 1940 - 171 pages
Besides, Jim here votes Democratic, and that knocks my two cents'
worth in the head.
JUNIOR Oh, Grandfather, you're just an old cynic
Before 1937, nearly a hundred percent of the hits for the phrase were
for two cents' worth of actual goods: milk, bread, rum, wine, metal,
etc.
There was one that almost used it figuratively but appeared to mean that
literally two cents worth of a substance would have prevented injury:
And there was only one that appears to mean "a small amount of" an
abstract quality:
Economics and Jurisprudence - Page 238
by Henry Carter Adams - 1897 - 48 pages
... all doubtful names even at the risk of double
enumeration, also invites him to pass by those whom
it is more than two cents' worth of trouble to
reach. ...
However, I'm now ot on the trail of what I think is going to turn out to
be the real origin of "two cents' worth." I will leave that post for
tomorrow so that I can gather the evidence properly.
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Evan Kirshenbaum
> tinwhistler <ozzie...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>> Donna Richoux wrote:
>>
>> > So, both refer to literally possible purchases, of a tiny amount. We're
>> > still missing something that gets us to the 1939 use.
>>
>> FWIW, an earlier AUE post dates it to the 19th century:
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/de3ac7ee94e06864?q=
> my+two+cents+group:alt.usage.english&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=3
>
> That post just refers to the AUE FAQ entry, which is worth knowing about
> but does not give any 19th century evidence -- it merely asserts that
>
> http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxputino.html
> This expression meaning "to contribute one's opinion" dates from
> the late nineteenth century.
>
> Mark Israel did not say such things lightly, but it would be nice if he
> had backed it up.
I can get it to the 19th century, but just barely...and in scare
quotes:
If talking will do any good and will bring us Flatbushers any
better service, just let an old reader of your esteemed paper put
in his "two cents' worth" on the mismanagement of the Flatbush
line of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company, and at the same time
thank "Worker" and "Vanderveer Park" for telling the truth about
the service that Mr. Rossiter is giving to this fine old town.
[_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 8/28/1899]
Most of the earlier hits there are amounts of this or that substance,
but I do see
In fact even the morning star did not twinkle so little as two
cents' worth. [12/14/1874]
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
> The other literary image I am reminded of, by "pins," is in "Penrod"
> (1915) by Booth Tarkington, which is on-line. The boys put on a show and
> make this sign:
>
> SCHoFiELD & WiLLiAMS
> BiG SHOW
> ADMiSSioN 1 CENT oR 20 PiNS
> MUSUEM oF CURioSiTES
>
> ...[They obtained] a most satisfactory audience, although,
> subsequent to Miss Rennsdale and governess, admission was wholly by
> pin.
>
> [Penrod announced a second showing:] "RE-MEM-BUR the price is only
> one cent, the tenth part of a dime, or twenty pins, no bent ones
> taken."
>
> ...all of the first audience returned, most of them having occupied
> the interval in hasty excursions for more pins; Miss Rennsdale and
> governess, however, again paying coin of the Republic and receiving
> deference and the best seats accordingly.
>
> [Later] ...perhaps because of sated curiosity, perhaps on account
> of a pin famine, the attendance began to languish.
Ah, that's something I've been meaning to ask for years. I think Tom
Sawyer set admission at two pins for boys and one for girls. Were pins
convertible currency for 19C American children? I have in mind that
perhaps grownups would give you money for them, or something like that.
I can't otherwise see what value pins would have had for children,
unless they were accepted throughout the US child world as an exact
analogue to money -- no intrinsic value.
--
Mike.
tinwhistler
> I can get it to the 19th century, but just barely...and in scare
> quotes:
>
> If talking will do any good and will bring us Flatbushers any
> better service, just let an old reader of your esteemed paper put
> in his "two cents' worth" on the mismanagement of the Flatbush
> line of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company, and at the same time
> thank "Worker" and "Vanderveer Park" for telling the truth about
> the service that Mr. Rossiter is giving to this fine old town.
> [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 8/28/1899]
That's great researching -- congratulations! I used to try the search
engine at the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, but it was so difficult, and so
seldom produced anything of value, that I gave up on it. Glad you
didn't.
Donna Richoux
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> [...]
> > The other literary image I am reminded of, by "pins," is in "Penrod"
> > (1915) by Booth Tarkington, which is on-line. The boys put on a show and
> > make this sign:
> >
> > SCHoFiELD & WiLLiAMS
> > BiG SHOW
> > ADMiSSioN 1 CENT oR 20 PiNS
> > MUSUEM oF CURioSiTES
> >
> > ...[They obtained] a most satisfactory audience, although,
> > subsequent to Miss Rennsdale and governess, admission was wholly by
> > pin.
> >
> > [Penrod announced a second showing:] "RE-MEM-BUR the price is only
> > one cent, the tenth part of a dime, or twenty pins, no bent ones
> > taken."
> >
> > ...all of the first audience returned, most of them having occupied
> > the interval in hasty excursions for more pins; Miss Rennsdale and
> > governess, however, again paying coin of the Republic and receiving
> > deference and the best seats accordingly.
> >
> > [Later] ...perhaps because of sated curiosity, perhaps on account
> > of a pin famine, the attendance began to languish.
>
> Ah, that's something I've been meaning to ask for years. I think Tom
> Sawyer set admission at two pins for boys and one for girls.
Yes, I'd forgotten that.
A circus came. The boys played circus for three days
afterward in tents made of rag carpeting --
admission, three pins for boys, two for girls -- and
then circusing was abandoned.
>Were pins
> convertible currency for 19C American children? I have in mind that
> perhaps grownups would give you money for them, or something like that.
> I can't otherwise see what value pins would have had for children,
> unless they were accepted throughout the US child world as an exact
> analogue to money -- no intrinsic value.
Those are the only two passages I know of. Maybe it was completely
widespread and ordinary then, but it was forgotten by the mid-20th
century, which is why the Penrod passage stuck in my mind.
There were basically no coins smaller than a penny (one cent) although
some coin collector will probably tell us that there were half-pennies
for a while. In a rural or generally depressed economy (including the
low-economic-status world of children), I can see that there would have
been need for a smaller coin, and apparently pins worked. Pins would
have been uniform, countable, and durable, all good qualities for money.
I happened to come across another passage that mentions using pins for
currency, the other day when I was searching on "two cents worth." It's
from a American memoir of a 1853 voyage that stopped in at Nicaragua:
Seated on the brawny shoulders of a Zambo (a person
of Indian and negro blood) while another carried my
satchel, I was borne high and dry through the surf.
I inquired, "How much do you charge?"
"One dime each."
My smallest change was a five franc silver piece,
current at ninety-five cents. Handing it to one, I
remarked: "You must both take your pay out of that."
Without thought of seeing either of them again, I
went some distance to a corral to obtain a mule, and
just before starting for Virgin Bay on Lake
Nicaragua one of the men brought me the exact
change; fifty cents in coin, two pieces of soap at
ten cents each, and a cake of chocolate at five
cents.
I mention this as an evidence of the honesty of
these people, and also to call attention to the fact
that articles of merchandise rather than coins were
used as money. Buying two cents worth of bananas, I
gave the five cent cake of chocolate, receiving in
change three rows of pins at one cent a row, these
current articles being always accepted without
complaint. The only inconvenience, you needed a
basket instead of a purse in which to carry your
change.
Salvatore Volatile
> Ah, that's something I've been meaning to ask for years. I think Tom
> Sawyer set admission at two pins for boys and one for girls. Were pins
> convertible currency for 19C American children? I have in mind that
> perhaps grownups would give you money for them, or something like that.
> I can't otherwise see what value pins would have had for children,
> unless they were accepted throughout the US child world as an exact
> analogue to money -- no intrinsic value.
This was well before the PIP merger, I suppose. A present-day "ink-pin"
might be worth a few pennies.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>There were basically no coins smaller than a penny (one cent) although
>some coin collector will probably tell us that there were half-pennies
>for a while. In a rural or generally depressed economy (including the
>low-economic-status world of children), I can see that there would have
>been need for a smaller coin, and apparently pins worked. Pins would
>have been uniform, countable, and durable, all good qualities for money.
>
Oh, yes. The American half-cent minted between 1793 and 1857. You
can buy one minted in the Civil War era for about $50.
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.chtml?type=date&filename=half_cent
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Salvatore Volatile
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> I can get it to the 19th century, but just barely...and in scare
>> quotes:
>>
>> If talking will do any good and will bring us Flatbushers any
>> better service, just let an old reader of your esteemed paper put
>> in his "two cents' worth" on the mismanagement of the Flatbush
>> line of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company, and at the same time
>> thank "Worker" and "Vanderveer Park" for telling the truth about
>> the service that Mr. Rossiter is giving to this fine old town.
>> [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 8/28/1899]
>
> That's great researching -- congratulations!
Indeed, Erk! BTW, have I mentioned that Flatbush (The Heart of Brooklyn
[Fourth Largest City in America]) is my home town? In fact, there's a
plaque of sorts outside the Newkirk Avenue train (= BradrE "subway")
station of the Brighton Line (NKASOO) in Newkirk Plaza that memorializes
the former existence of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company, or the BRT as
I believe it was known (the source of _The New Republic_'s TRB, as I
recall). Brooklynites developed a reputation for being Dodgers of
trolleys.
I hadn't known that "Flatbusher" was an old term for a resident of
Flatbush.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Donna Richoux
"two cents worth". The first was Evan Morris, Word Detective, who said
the same sort of thing as our FAQ and the conversation here, that it
simply meant a small amount of something.
Then I came across another explanation that struck me:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=49033
Just my two cents
(idea) by rischi (2.4 y) (print) ? 3 C!s Sat Oct
27 2001 at 1:18:18
"Just my two cents" or "My two cents worth" is used
to loosely mean "stating one's opinion". ...[snip]
Origin: The phrase "Put my two cents in" originates
from an older phrase "put my two bits in" which has
its origin in the game of Poker. When playing poker,
one starts with making a small bet before the cards
are dealt. This is called an "ante".
As ante gains entry in the game, this phrase gains
one an entry into the conversation.
Ante? Poker? I had mixed feelings. I was drawn to this because it makes
sense and feels right -- in the metaphorical use, one puts or throws
one's two cents in, just like anteing at a table; it's not like
purchasing a consumable amount of goods. The phrase using "two bits" is
just as recognizable to me as "two cents." But -- who were these people
(everything2.com), and what evidence did they have? And if the answer
was this easy, why didn't everyone know it?
I kept looking, and Wikipedia had much the same thing:
The phrase originates in betting card games, such as
poker. In these games, one must make a small bet, or
ante, before beginning play. Thus, the phrase makes
an analogy between entering the game and entering a
conversation.
Well, we all know we can't count on Wikipedia. But this gave me some
phrases to search for, like "put in my two cents" and "put my two cents
in", with various pronouns and action verbs. Also "bits".
In the Google Books collection, the first uses of put or throw (in
various forms) and "two bits" occur in the 1940s, which is after a few
uses of "put" and "two cents," but before the "cents" expression caught
on widely in the 1950s. First examples:
United States. Congress. House. Agriculture Committee - 1947
... I think I will put in my two bits worth on the matter of the
farm-labor camps
United States. Congress. House. Committee on Interstate and Foreign
Commerce - 1948
...I was glad to throw in my two bits for whatever it might be
worth.
Before that time, the hits for "two bits" referred to two actual small
pieces of something, or the money (a quarter of a dollar).
What this means about the relative history of "bits" and "cents" is
impossible to say. We found before (with "close to the chest/vest") that
early poker language is not documented very well. People might have been
saying "Here's my two bits" (literally, when anteing) for many decades
before it was used figuratively. Maybe some low-stakes players literally
ante'd two cents. Maybe inflation upped the ante. Or maybe the phrases
got conflated, the vanishing "bits" being replaced by the familiar small
"two cents."
Anyway, Evan, if you're up to searching for some combination like "put
in my two bits" I'd be very interested to know how far you can push it
back.
Pat Durkin
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1hiqd68.1c85m9mfzc0osN%tr...@euronet.nl...
>I looked to see what explanations were on the Web about the origins of
> "two cents worth". The first was Evan Morris, Word Detective, who said
> the same sort of thing as our FAQ and the conversation here, that it
> simply meant a small amount of something.
>
> Then I came across another explanation that struck me:
>
> http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=49033
>
> Just my two cents
>
> (idea) by rischi (2.4 y) (print) ? 3 C!s Sat Oct
> 27 2001 at 1:18:18
>
> "Just my two cents" or "My two cents worth" is used
> to loosely mean "stating one's opinion". ...[snip]
>
> Origin: The phrase "Put my two cents in" originates
> from an older phrase "put my two bits in" which has
> its origin in the game of Poker. When playing poker,
> one starts with making a small bet before the cards
> are dealt. This is called an "ante".
>
> As ante gains entry in the game, this phrase gains
> one an entry into the conversation.
>
>
He might compare "two cents" with "chipping in", which, I think, also
deals with asking to be dealt into a (game) conversation.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Anyway, Evan, if you're up to searching for some combination like "put
> in my two bits" I'd be very interested to know how far you can push it
> back.
Not too far:
From New Mexico--You recently treated of [sic] the word
*perspiration*. I'd like to put in my two-bits worth and state
that horses sweat, gentlement perspire and ladies glow. H.R.B.
[8/1/1940]
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology:
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | If they're doing something you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art.
(650)857-7572
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > Anyway, Evan, if you're up to searching for some combination like "put
> > in my two bits" I'd be very interested to know how far you can push it
> > back.
>
> Not too far:
>
> From New Mexico--You recently treated of [sic] the word
> *perspiration*. I'd like to put in my two-bits worth and state
> that horses sweat, gentlement perspire and ladies glow. H.R.B.
> [8/1/1940]
Fascinating, that's the same decade I found. If this holds up, if it's
not just some sort of fluke, that shoots holes in all the
Wikipedia-copiers who are mindlessly repeating that "two bits" is the
older phrase and "two cents" is newer. We now know of the 1899 citation
you give, for example.
But it take more to find out whether "two bits" shows up in any form. I
also wonder if we can find a direct example of either of these amounts
shown to be the ante in poker.
... Rummaging through more examples of "two bits worth" in Google Books,
I see that _Dialect Notes_ of the American Dialect Society has something
about "two bits worth" in their 1896 volume. Google Books doesn't
display it. Does anyone have access to that?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> But it take more to find out whether "two bits" shows up in any form. I
> also wonder if we can find a direct example of either of these amounts
> shown to be the ante in poker.
>
> ... Rummaging through more examples of "two bits worth" in Google Books,
> I see that _Dialect Notes_ of the American Dialect Society has something
> about "two bits worth" in their 1896 volume. Google Books doesn't
> display it. Does anyone have access to that?
I'm not sure just what you're looking for. "Two bits" in the sense of
"twenty-five cents"[1] goes back as far as the _Brooklyn Daily Eagle_
does, both in business contexts and in gambling:
The parties, it appears, quarrelled and fought about a bet of two
bits in a game of cards. [9/22/1843]
I was just looking for "two bits" in the sense of expressing an
opinion.
[1] Or perhaps not always. The first hit in the _Brooklyn Daily
Eagle_ is
"... The stores in Brooklyn, opposite Front street, that bring
$400, would readily let for $1200 to $1700 on the levee, here
[St. Louis]; but then provisions are extremely cheap--for
instance, wild turkeys, weighing sixteen pounds, can be had for
four bits (40 cents); wild geese, two bits;--chickens, weighing
four pounds, one bit; and venison, prairie hens, &c. almost for
the asking." [1/29/1842]
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |who still remember how to read.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > But it take more to find out whether "two bits" shows up in any form. I
> > also wonder if we can find a direct example of either of these amounts
> > shown to be the ante in poker.
> >
> > ... Rummaging through more examples of "two bits worth" in Google Books,
> > I see that _Dialect Notes_ of the American Dialect Society has something
> > about "two bits worth" in their 1896 volume. Google Books doesn't
> > display it. Does anyone have access to that?
>
> I'm not sure just what you're looking for.
Several things, really. Not that I expect you to look for all this,
but...
l) My last item was very specific, of course, hoping that "Dialect
Notes" discusses "two bit worth" in the sense of "opinion." I think it
may just be a list of slang terms with brief definitions, though, from
what other things I've seen quoted from them in RHHDAS, so it might not
be worth the trouble.
2) I'm wondering if other forms of the "two bits" phrase (with meaning
"opinion") can be found earlier, if searched with different pronouns,
verb forms, and so on (like "throw my two bits in" or "Here's my two
bits.") This would close that 40-year gap we have between the "two
cents" and "two bits" forms.
3) I see you found a direct reference to two bits as a poker *bet*. I'm
wondering if the Web claims that this expression specifically comes from
the *ante* have any basis. Maybe two cents or two bits were *never*
truly customary amounts to ante up -- it just *sounds* plausible to us
now... I wonder if there are any old card manuals like Hoyle on line.
>"Two bits" in the sense of
> "twenty-five cents"[1] goes back as far as the _Brooklyn Daily Eagle_
> does, both in business contexts and in gambling:
>
> The parties, it appears, quarrelled and fought about a bet of two
> bits in a game of cards. [9/22/1843]
>
> I was just looking for "two bits" in the sense of expressing an
> opinion.
>
> [1] Or perhaps not always. The first hit in the _Brooklyn Daily
> Eagle_ is
>
> "... The stores in Brooklyn, opposite Front street, that bring
> $400, would readily let for $1200 to $1700 on the levee, here
> [St. Louis]; but then provisions are extremely cheap--for
> instance, wild turkeys, weighing sixteen pounds, can be had for
> four bits (40 cents); wild geese, two bits;--chickens, weighing
> four pounds, one bit; and venison, prairie hens, &c. almost for
> the asking." [1/29/1842]
Yep, I found it used, as "two cents worth" was, for all sorts of goods.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> 2) I'm wondering if other forms of the "two bits" phrase (with
> meaning "opinion") can be found earlier, if searched with different
> pronouns, verb forms, and so on (like "throw my two bits in" or
> "Here's my two bits.") This would close that 40-year gap we have
> between the "two cents" and "two bits" forms.
That's what I tried to find. It was pure coincidence that the
earliest I could find was precisely in the form ("put in my two bits")
that you mentioned.
> 3) I see you found a direct reference to two bits as a poker
> *bet*. I'm wondering if the Web claims that this expression
> specifically comes from the *ante* have any basis. Maybe two cents
> or two bits were *never* truly customary amounts to ante up -- it
> just *sounds* plausible to us now... I wonder if there are any old
> card manuals like Hoyle on line.
There's one, metaphorical, hit for "two bit ante" in the _Brooklyn
Daily Eagle_:
You must not go down to church to-morrow evening with less than
two bits in your pocket. You cannot expect to get a good sermon,
fine music and see the array of Kingston's beauty and fashion for
less than 25 cents. The old nickel doesn't go. It is a two bit
ante. [10/30/1887]
Two cents isn't mentioned as an ante.
The _Los Angeles Times_ has a two-bit ante in 1900. From testimony in
a divorce:
He made constant use of liquors, and was not averse to cards at a
two-bit "ante." [10/5/1900]
Given that two bits in 1900 is $5.54 in 2005 dollars, a two-bit ante
would presumably be reasonably high stakes. (Interestingly, two bits
in 1887 is only $5.13 in 2005. Apparently there was some deflation
going on.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't
|learn anything at the Harvard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Business School.
(650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen
| Harvard Business School
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > 2) I'm wondering if other forms of the "two bits" phrase (with
> > meaning "opinion") can be found earlier, if searched with different
> > pronouns, verb forms, and so on (like "throw my two bits in" or
> > "Here's my two bits.") This would close that 40-year gap we have
> > between the "two cents" and "two bits" forms.
>
> That's what I tried to find. It was pure coincidence that the
> earliest I could find was precisely in the form ("put in my two bits")
> that you mentioned.
Oh, that's good, thank you. No, I hadn't realized that it was only a
coincidence.
>
> > 3) I see you found a direct reference to two bits as a poker
> > *bet*. I'm wondering if the Web claims that this expression
> > specifically comes from the *ante* have any basis. Maybe two cents
> > or two bits were *never* truly customary amounts to ante up -- it
> > just *sounds* plausible to us now... I wonder if there are any old
> > card manuals like Hoyle on line.
>
> There's one, metaphorical, hit for "two bit ante" in the _Brooklyn
> Daily Eagle_:
>
> You must not go down to church to-morrow evening with less than
> two bits in your pocket. You cannot expect to get a good sermon,
> fine music and see the array of Kingston's beauty and fashion for
> less than 25 cents. The old nickel doesn't go. It is a two bit
> ante. [10/30/1887]
>
> Two cents isn't mentioned as an ante.
>
> The _Los Angeles Times_ has a two-bit ante in 1900. From testimony in
> a divorce:
>
> He made constant use of liquors, and was not averse to cards at a
> two-bit "ante." [10/5/1900]
>
> Given that two bits in 1900 is $5.54 in 2005 dollars, a two-bit ante
> would presumably be reasonably high stakes. (Interestingly, two bits
> in 1887 is only $5.13 in 2005. Apparently there was some deflation
> going on.)
Excellent, I am now sufficiently convinced of the existence of a two-bit
ante. Now, was there also a two-cent ante for low-stakes games? That
might be the last piece of the puzzle.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Excellent, I am now sufficiently convinced of the existence of a
> two-bit ante. Now, was there also a two-cent ante for low-stakes
> games? That might be the last piece of the puzzle.
Not that I've seen, and I'd be somewhat surprised if there was. The
ante is, as I understand it, typically the smallest coin or chip that
you are allowed to use, so it's (usually?) a single coin or chip.
While it's true that there was a two-cent coin issued from 1864
through 1873, I'd guess that most low stakes games would have been
"penny ante". And, indeed, I find _Daily Eagle_ hits for that from
1867 through 1900. (There were no hits for "two cent ante")
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |He seems to be perceptive and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |effective because he states the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |obvious to people that don't seem
|to see the obvious.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Tony Cooper
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > Excellent, I am now sufficiently convinced of the existence of a
> > two-bit ante. Now, was there also a two-cent ante for low-stakes
> > games? That might be the last piece of the puzzle.
>
> Not that I've seen, and I'd be somewhat surprised if there was. The
> ante is, as I understand it, typically the smallest coin or chip that
> you are allowed to use, so it's (usually?) a single coin or chip.
Oh, I never heard that. The only game I've played with antes is
"Michigan" were you ante four white chips, each round.
> While it's true that there was a two-cent coin issued from 1864
> through 1873, I'd guess that most low stakes games would have been
> "penny ante". And, indeed, I find _Daily Eagle_ hits for that from
> 1867 through 1900. (There were no hits for "two cent ante")
"Penny ante" sounds right -- I should have thought of that before. I can
imagine my father using that to describe something trivial.
Merriam-Webster has an entry for it:
Main Entry: pen搖y-an暗e
Function: adjective
Date: 1865
: SMALL-TIME, TWO-BIT
Although they list the figurative "two-bit" as a general synonym for
"penny ante," a two-bit ante could not have been synonymous with a penny
ante!
Well, I'm disappointed that nothing turns up for anteing two cents. It
would have made such a tidy explanation for "putting in one's two
cents." Now we're left with a handful of citations and no way to account
for them.
Thanks for all the research.
Pat Durkin
family played poker, there was usually a "two-cent" or "two-penny" limit
to the betting, with a two-raise limit tacked on. That was to keep the
inevitable fights from costing anyone "big" money in a friendly family
game. No "side-bets" were allowed. (In 7-card stud, the two limit
raise clicked in for each round of betting, so with 4 or 5 people
playing, the pot could get pretty big.)
I've played with matchsticks and Christmas candy, but I think the most
fun was the "free" civil defense candy, given away when the CD shelters
were de-activated or re-supplied. We still held to the two-penny/two
raise limit.
Side thought: When someone calls for another to "ante up" (or put in
his share), does anyone hear "pony up"? I suppose I should look it up,
rather than leave it to Donna, who does such a lot of work on the
research.
Pat Durkin
"Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com> wrote in message
news:emNxg.75705$Lm5....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
> news:1hj32cn.4ut0eg1q7yqxwN%tr...@euronet.nl...
>> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>>>
>>> > Excellent, I am now sufficiently convinced of the existence of a
>>> > two-bit ante. Now, was there also a two-cent ante for low-stakes
>>> > games? That might be the last piece of the puzzle.
>>>
>>> Not that I've seen, and I'd be somewhat surprised if there was. The
>>> ante is, as I understand it, typically the smallest coin or chip
>>> that
>>> you are allowed to use, so it's (usually?) a single coin or chip.
>>
>> Oh, I never heard that. The only game I've played with antes is
>> "Michigan" were you ante four white chips, each round.
>>
>>> While it's true that there was a two-cent coin issued from 1864
>>> through 1873, I'd guess that most low stakes games would have been
>>> "penny ante". And, indeed, I find _Daily Eagle_ hits for that from
>>> 1867 through 1900. (There were no hits for "two cent ante")
>>
>> "Penny ante" sounds right -- I should have thought of that before. I
>> can
>> imagine my father using that to describe something trivial.
>> Merriam-Webster has an entry for it:
>>
Free dictionary:
pony up Slang
To pay (money owed or due).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably from obsolete French poulenet, diminutive of poulain, colt,
from Late Latin pullmen, young of an animal, from Latin pullus; see
pau-1 in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Thesaurus:
Verb 1. pony up - give reluctantly; "He coughed up some money for
his children's tuition"
cough up, spit up
give - transfer possession of something concrete or abstract to
somebody; "I gave her my money"; "can you give me lessons?"; "She gave
the children lots of love and tender loving care"
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Side thought: When someone calls for another to "ante up" (or put in
>his share), does anyone hear "pony up"? I suppose I should look it up,
>rather than leave it to Donna, who does such a lot of work on the
>research.
"Pony up" is familiar to me, but it's used - in my experience - when a
bet is collected or a small debt is owed. If I bet my son a quarter
that my daughter will not arrive before 2PM (when she said she'd here
by noon), at 2PM I'll say "Pony up". 'Course he won't take the bet,
but theoretically.
Donna Richoux
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
[snip]
> > Well, I'm disappointed that nothing turns up for anteing two cents. It
> > would have made such a tidy explanation for "putting in one's two
> > cents." Now we're left with a handful of citations and no way to
> > account
> > for them.
> >
> I wouldn't limit my association of "two-penny" to the ante. When my
> family played poker, there was usually a "two-cent" or "two-penny" limit
> to the betting, with a two-raise limit tacked on. That was to keep the
> inevitable fights from costing anyone "big" money in a friendly family
> game. No "side-bets" were allowed. (In 7-card stud, the two limit
> raise clicked in for each round of betting, so with 4 or 5 people
> playing, the pot could get pretty big.)
>
> I've played with matchsticks and Christmas candy, but I think the most
> fun was the "free" civil defense candy, given away when the CD shelters
> were de-activated or re-supplied. We still held to the two-penny/two
> raise limit.
That's what my husband just suggested over dinner, when I told him of
the latest on this question -- a two-cent *bet*. I'm glad you reported
remembering this.
Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to any more evidence in the literature
searches, as all of these come up empty in early Google Books and at the
Making of America collection:
"bet two cents"
"two cent bet"
"two cent limit"
"two cent raise"
"raised two cents"
poker "two cents"
Whatever this relationship is, it wasn't written about much.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> That's what my husband just suggested over dinner, when I told him of
> the latest on this question -- a two-cent *bet*. I'm glad you reported
> remembering this.
>
> Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to any more evidence in the literature
> searches, as all of these come up empty in early Google Books and at the
> Making of America collection:
Perhaps another tack. Now that I have access to the _New York Times_,
I see that their first hit for "my two cent[s]" is
Presently two longshoremen sauntered up, and brushed past the
woman.
"I want to get into ---'s," said one of them, as he tried the
side door of the saloon. "If he was here I'd get in."
"No you wouldn't," replied the woman; "he's not selling to-day.
He's closed up."
"Closed up, hey? Well, that's fine business, and I've been
getting my two-cent Sunday postage stamp here reg'ler. Have to
try somewhere else, I guess."
"That's the first time I evered heard Sunday rum called a
postage stamp," was Sergt. Thompson's comment, "and I had to laugh
over it. The place was closed tight, however." [8/26/1895]
I'm actually starting to wonder (although I can't find anything to
back it up) whether there wasn't some venue that either charged a
two-cent admission or for a two-cent fee allowed you to get up on
stage and address the audience.
Another possibility is that it had something to do with the _New York
Times_ itself costing two cents.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |English grammar is not taught in
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |primary or secondary schools in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |United States. Sometimes some
|mythology is taught under that
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |rubric, but luckily it's usually
(650)857-7572 |ignored, except by the credulous.
| John Lawler
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Richard Maurer
is that it changes value during the centuries.
Ben Jonson's "two penny rascal" might have been
someone who could only afford the cheap seats,
but he could still afford to attend the theater.
With inflation, perhaps today he would be
a "twenty dollar" rascal, and the pretty good
seats would go for a hundred dollars.
When Mark Twain said he did not care two cents,
it sounds a little strange when we convert to
modern currency and say "did not care two dollars";
but cents were the smallest practical unit
at the time.
The two cent postage stamp seemed like a good
theory; I am surprised that we find no evidence,
and so little before 1930.
Another guess is that it has to do with
telegraph rates, which for a while were
two cents per word. This fits in with the humility,
for if you add your "two cents" you are
only adding one word.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The trouble with "two cents" as a language term is that it changes
> value during the centuries. Ben Jonson's "two penny rascal" might
> have been someone who could only afford the cheap seats, but he
> could still afford to attend the theater. With inflation, perhaps
> today he would be a "twenty dollar" rascal, and the pretty good
> seats would go for a hundred dollars.
>
> When Mark Twain said he did not care two cents, it sounds a little
> strange when we convert to modern currency and say "did not care two
> dollars"; but cents were the smallest practical unit at the time.
It's not that bad. According to
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
two cents in 2005 dollars was
1800 $0.22 1900 0.44
1810 0.24 1910 0.41
1820 0.24 1920 0.21
1830 0.35 1930 0.22
1840 0.35 1940 0.27
1850 0.44 1950 0.16
1860 0.41 1960 0.13
1870 0.28 1970 0.10
1880 0.40 1980 0.05
1890 0.41 1990 0.03
So in Twain's day, it was never more than "four bits" today.
I can't find numbers from Jonson's day, but for 1665 the conversion
factors are essentially identical with 1890. The maximum value since
then appears to have been in 1739, when two cents was worth 71.4 cents
in 2005 money. We have a sense of inflation being a constant force,
but that's really only been the case since about 1900.
Historical conversion factors from
http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/infcf16652006.xls
Ah, here we go. According to
2d in 1600 was worth £1.09 in 2005, or about two bucks. A "twenty
dollar rascal" would be about ten pounds, and even in 1264 (the
earliest that calculator goes) two pence is only £3.91 (about $7.25)
today. (Note that I've switched here to British pence and British
purchasing power. According to that site, 2d in 1665 is £0.93 in
2005, 2d in 1739 is £1.00, and 2d in 1800 is £0.40.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If I may digress momentarily from
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |the mainstream of this evening's
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |symposium, I'd like to sing a song
|which is completely pointless.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Tom Lehrer
(650)857-7572
Richard Maurer
When Mark Twain said he did not care two cents,
it sounds a little strange when we convert to
modern currency and say "did not care two dollars";
but cents were the smallest practical unit
at the time.
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
It's not that bad. According to
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
two cents in 2005 dollars was
1800 $0.22 1900 0.44
1810 0.24 1910 0.41
1820 0.24 1920 0.21
1830 0.35 1930 0.22
1840 0.35 1940 0.27
1850 0.44 1950 0.16
1860 0.41 1960 0.13
1870 0.28 1970 0.10
1880 0.40 1980 0.05
1890 0.41 1990 0.03
So in Twain's day, it was never more than "four bits" today.
Are there two different recognized concepts --
cost inflation and wage inflation. If so,
then my "don't care two dollars" seems to work
for wage inflation, but not for cost inflation.
A spot check verifies Evan's 20x factor from 1893.
Here is an 1893 article [1] that includes prices
of several things
beef, sirloin ... 20 to 25 cents per pound
beef, round ... 16 cents per pound
smoked ham ... 14 cents per pound
codfish ... 8 cents per pound
milk ... 7 cents per quart
cheese, whole ... 15 cents per pound
cheese, skimmed ... 8 cents per pound
potatoes ... 1.25 cents per pound
In the late 1800s, "$5 per week man" was a
stock phrase. Later on, I surmise that this
became similar to "minimum wage", but before
that it was probably "entry level".
About a poor girl working in a mill (1896) [2]:
Oh, I've got on splendid the last year.
I make a dollar a day, an' I pay three
dollars a week for my board.
A 10 hour day implies about 60x wage inflation.
A 1855 article [3] implies that good journeyman printers
got paid about $500 per year, and carpenters about $300.
I reckon that at 100x wage inflation.
Now as for wages in 1832 [4]:
The Tariffville Carpet Manufactory.
[...]
the number of hands employed in the factory
and immediately dependent upon it is 367,
95 of whom are male weavers.
[...] the amount annually paid for labor
exceeds $30,000
Jefferson College.
[...]
Boarding and lodging will be furnished at
sixty-two and a half cents per week --
the students being required to cultivate
the garden for the use of the establishment ;
for any additional service they may render
the premises, compensation will be made,
and it is believed that an industrious student,
by laboring less than three hours per day,
will pay the expenses of his boarding [...]
Looks like those industrious students will be
working for maybe 3 cents per hour; less if they
they still have to pay lodging. Maybe they only
fed them potatoes.
Of course back in the day they did not have certain
expenses, such as internet connection fees,
cell phone plans, and high definition TVs.
So, yeah, 2 cents then would buy less than 50 cents
today, but people were paid much less then.
Maybe that is why moderately rich people
with a little extra attic space could afford servants.
Food for one, and two or three dollars per week
got someone to do all the hard work.
[1] Pecuniary Economy of Food, by Prof. W. O. Atwater, Jan 1888
Title:The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 35, Issue 3
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABP2287-0035-89
see p 440
[2] Girls in a Factory Valley, by Lillie B. Chace Wyman
Title:The Atlantic monthly. / Volume 78, Issue 468
Publisher:Atlantic Monthly Co.
Publication Date:Oct 1896
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-67
see p511
[3] Title:Harper's new monthly magazine. / Volume 11, Issue 64
Publisher:Harper & Bros.
Publication Date:September 1855
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK4014-0011-70
see p554
[4] Politics and Statistics, May 1832
The New-England magazine. / Volume 2, Issue 5
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABS8100-0002-133
see p432
Richard Maurer
Another guess is that it has to do with
telegraph rates, which for a while were
two cents per word. This fits in with the humility,
for if you add your "two cents" you are
only adding one word.
In partial support of this idea, I note that
there are 162 hits in the Making of America
Collection for
"add a word"
and there are plenty more for constructions
such as
"put in a word".
Donna Richoux
> Richard Maurer wrote:
> Another guess is that it has to do with
> telegraph rates, which for a while were
> two cents per word. This fits in with the humility,
> for if you add your "two cents" you are
> only adding one word.
>
>
>
> In partial support of this idea, I note that
> there are 162 hits in the Making of America
> Collection for
> "add a word"
> and there are plenty more for constructions
> such as
> "put in a word".
Perhaps I don't understand your point, because both phrases are older
than telegraphs. Google Books has several examples of "add a word` from
1700-1710, and for "put in a word" its first hit is 1745.
Now, if you had a game where people bought a word for two cents...
R H Draney
>
>Now, if you had a game where people bought a word for two cents...
Pretty chintzy...vowels cost $250....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
Richard Maurer
Another guess is that it has to do with
telegraph rates, which for a while were
two cents per word. This fits in with the humility,
for if you add your "two cents" you are
only adding one word.
Richard Maurer conti9nue:
In partial support of this idea, I note that
there are 162 hits in the Making of America
Collection for
"add a word"
and there are plenty more for constructions
such as
"put in a word".
Donna Richoux wrote:
Perhaps I don't understand your point,
because both phrases are older than telegraphs.
Google Books has several examples of "add a word`
from 1700-1710, and for "put in a word" its
first hit is 1745.
I may be too close to this. Perhaps someone else
can contribute a word or two on the topic.