Rupert Sheldrake
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Mack A. Damia
Mar 2, 2023, 6:47:35 AMMar 2
to
"As part of my research on the sense of being stared at, I am studying
how sleeping animals and people can be woken by stares. I am curious
to know if any researchers or technicians who work with laboratory
rats, mice or fruit flies have ever noticed that they can wake these
animals by staring at them. If you have any experience of this
phenomenon in a laboratory setting, please let me know about it by
writing to me at shel...@sheldrake.org "
Adam Funk
Mar 3, 2023, 9:00:08 AMMar 3
to
--
We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. But then, so did
the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed
by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art. Very often
in the art of words. ---Ursula Le Guin
Mack A. Damia
Mar 3, 2023, 5:59:24 PMMar 3
to
On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 13:51:37 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
>On 2023-03-02, Mack A Damia wrote:
>
>> "As part of my research on the sense of being stared at, I am studying
>> how sleeping animals and people can be woken by stares. I am curious
>> to know if any researchers or technicians who work with laboratory
>> rats, mice or fruit flies have ever noticed that they can wake these
>> animals by staring at them. If you have any experience of this
>> phenomenon in a laboratory setting, please let me know about it by
>> writing to me at shel...@sheldrake.org "
>
>Have you tried it?
Scotland Yard detective, Gregory: "Is there any other point to which
you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."
wrote:
>On 2023-03-02, Mack A Damia wrote:
>
>> "As part of my research on the sense of being stared at, I am studying
>> how sleeping animals and people can be woken by stares. I am curious
>> to know if any researchers or technicians who work with laboratory
>> rats, mice or fruit flies have ever noticed that they can wake these
>> animals by staring at them. If you have any experience of this
>> phenomenon in a laboratory setting, please let me know about it by
>> writing to me at shel...@sheldrake.org "
>
>Have you tried it?
you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."
Anton Shepelev
Mar 4, 2023, 7:41:41 AMMar 4
to
Mack A. Damia:
Filine reactions to Bearded men:
https://www.neatorama.com/pet/2011/01/04/feline-reactions-to-bearded-men/
Cats were exposed to photographs of bearded men. The beards
were of various sizes, shapes, and styles. The cats'
responses were recorded and analyzed.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
https://www.neatorama.com/pet/2011/01/04/feline-reactions-to-bearded-men/
Cats were exposed to photographs of bearded men. The beards
were of various sizes, shapes, and styles. The cats'
responses were recorded and analyzed.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Paul Epstein
Mar 5, 2023, 6:57:36 AMMar 5
to
confusion of correlation and causation.
When people stare at animals, they are also likely to have made a noise
near the animal, and to be breathing in the direction of the animal and they
are likely to have been in the vicinity of the animal for longer than a casual
glance -- rarely do people stare while walking.
It isn't the staring that woke them up -- Duh.
Paul Epstein
Paul Epstein
Mar 5, 2023, 7:01:35 AMMar 5
to
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 2:00:08 PM UTC, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2023-03-02, Mack A Damia wrote:
>
> > "As part of my research on the sense of being stared at, I am studying
> > how sleeping animals and people can be woken by stares. I am curious
> > to know if any researchers or technicians who work with laboratory
> > rats, mice or fruit flies have ever noticed that they can wake these
> > animals by staring at them. If you have any experience of this
> > phenomenon in a laboratory setting, please let me know about it by
> > writing to me at shel...@sheldrake.org "
> Have you tried it?
But what does "trying it" mean?
> On 2023-03-02, Mack A Damia wrote:
>
> > "As part of my research on the sense of being stared at, I am studying
> > how sleeping animals and people can be woken by stares. I am curious
> > to know if any researchers or technicians who work with laboratory
> > rats, mice or fruit flies have ever noticed that they can wake these
> > animals by staring at them. If you have any experience of this
> > phenomenon in a laboratory setting, please let me know about it by
> > writing to me at shel...@sheldrake.org "
> Have you tried it?
Yes, rats, mice and fruit flies sometimes wake up while they're being stared at.
No, rats, mice and fruit flies don't always wake up while they're being stared at.
Yes, rats, mice and fruit flies are more likely to wake up while they're being stared at
than when someone is staring away from them -- because the loud breathing would
be towards the animal rather than away from them.
Paul Epstein
J. J. Lodder
Mar 5, 2023, 8:53:50 AMMar 5
to
Paul Epstein <peps...@gmail.com> wrote:
What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
that pigeons can find their till because
there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
which they can somehow feel.
He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
when it was still in sight, and no,
they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
So no support for Sheldrake there,
Jan
FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
that pigeons can find their till because
there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
which they can somehow feel.
He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
when it was still in sight, and no,
they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
So no support for Sheldrake there,
Jan
Paul Epstein
Mar 5, 2023, 10:34:42 AMMar 5
to
I have 100 trials where I stare at a photograph of Sheldrake,
and 100 trials where I stare at a blank canvas.
Suppose that, to within a p value of < 0.0001%, I am far more likely
to be staring at an idiot when I stare at a photo of Sheldrake than
when I stare at the blank canvas.
Would that prove Sheldrake's theory or disprove it?
I think the experiment would be somewhat paradoxical.
Paul Epstein
Jerry Friedman
Mar 5, 2023, 7:09:16 PMMar 5
to
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
...
> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> that pigeons can find their till because
> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> which they can somehow feel.
>
> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
have a Dutch cognate.
I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> when it was still in sight, and no,
> they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> So no support for Sheldrake there,
Obviously the professor's skepticism disrupted the morphic resonance.
--
Jerry Friedman
...
> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> that pigeons can find their till because
> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> which they can somehow feel.
>
> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
have a Dutch cognate.
I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> when it was still in sight, and no,
> they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> So no support for Sheldrake there,
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross Clark
Mar 5, 2023, 9:49:21 PMMar 5
to
On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> ...
>
>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> that pigeons can find their till because
>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> which they can somehow feel.
>>
>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>
> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> have a Dutch cognate.
>
> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> ...
>
>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> that pigeons can find their till because
>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> which they can somehow feel.
>>
>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>
> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> have a Dutch cognate.
>
> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
Don't know of any cognates.
Mack A. Damia
Mar 5, 2023, 10:13:32 PMMar 5
to
On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 15:49:09 +1300, Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
>On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
Yet Carl Jung created and believed in a collection of preposterous
theories that capyured fantasies and imagination. But there is as
enough evidence for the existence of "morphic resonance" as there is
for the existence of the "collective unconscious"; yet we seem to
grasp Jung's ideas much more readily than, say, the ideas of Sheldrake
who is usually painted as a crackpot.
wrote:
>On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
theories that capyured fantasies and imagination. But there is as
enough evidence for the existence of "morphic resonance" as there is
for the existence of the "collective unconscious"; yet we seem to
grasp Jung's ideas much more readily than, say, the ideas of Sheldrake
who is usually painted as a crackpot.
Jerry Friedman
Mar 6, 2023, 12:16:29 AMMar 6
to
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 7:49:21 PM UTC-7, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >> that pigeons can find their till because
> >> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >> which they can somehow feel.
> >>
> >> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
> >
> > There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> > be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> > OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> > have a Dutch cognate.
> >
> > I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> Don't know of any cognates.
That certainly makes sense. Thank you.
> On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >> that pigeons can find their till because
> >> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >> which they can somehow feel.
> >>
> >> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
> >
> > There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> > be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> > OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> > have a Dutch cognate.
> >
> > I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> Don't know of any cognates.
> >> when it was still in sight, and no,
> >> they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> >> So no support for Sheldrake there,
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
Mar 6, 2023, 4:57:55 AMMar 6
to
Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> ...
>
> > What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> > FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> > that pigeons can find their till because
> > there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> > which they can somehow feel.
> >
> > He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> > And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>
> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> have a Dutch cognate.
The 'duiventil' is a particular kind,
a dovecote mounted on top of a pole.
English is less discriminate,
a 'dovecote' can be any kind,
even a big stone building.
'Pigeon loft' isn't right either.
The 'til' part is from old Frisian.
> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
They live in it. The pole mounting was originally invented
against fox predation.
> > when it was still in sight, and no,
> > they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> > So no support for Sheldrake there,
>
> Obviously the professor's skepticism disrupted the morphic resonance.
No doubt the correct explanation.
The professor's skeptic field must increase with distance,
Jan
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> ...
>
> > What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> > FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> > that pigeons can find their till because
> > there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> > which they can somehow feel.
> >
> > He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> > And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>
> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> have a Dutch cognate.
a dovecote mounted on top of a pole.
English is less discriminate,
a 'dovecote' can be any kind,
even a big stone building.
'Pigeon loft' isn't right either.
The 'til' part is from old Frisian.
> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
against fox predation.
> > when it was still in sight, and no,
> > they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> > So no support for Sheldrake there,
>
> Obviously the professor's skepticism disrupted the morphic resonance.
The professor's skeptic field must increase with distance,
Jan
Jerry Friedman
Mar 6, 2023, 9:49:43 AMMar 6
to
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 8:13:32 PM UTC-7, Mack A. Damia wrote:
...
> >On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >>> which they can somehow feel.
> >>>
> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
...
> >>> when it was still in sight, and no,
> >>> they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> >>> So no support for Sheldrake there,
> >>
> >> Obviously the professor's skepticism disrupted the morphic resonance.
> Yet Carl Jung created and believed in a collection of preposterous
> theories that capyured fantasies and imagination. But there is as
> enough evidence for the existence of "morphic resonance" as there is
> for the existence of the "collective unconscious"; yet we seem to
> grasp Jung's ideas much more readily than, say, the ideas of Sheldrake
> who is usually painted as a crackpot.
I can think of three reasons for that difference.
I find what I know of Jung's ideas much more entertaining than what I
know of Sheldrake's, and I don't think I'm the only one.
Jung came up with most or all of his ideas before people were doing
much experimental testing of psychological theories, so it was quite
a while before they were shown to be preposterous. On the other hand
Sheldrake's ideas are easily refuted by obvious experiments.
One of Jung's ideas, the introvert-extravert distinction, turned out to
be a real thing, as I understand it.
--
Jerry Friedman
...
> >On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >>> which they can somehow feel.
> >>>
> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
> >>> when it was still in sight, and no,
> >>> they had much more trouble when it was moved out of sight.
> >>> So no support for Sheldrake there,
> >>
> >> Obviously the professor's skepticism disrupted the morphic resonance.
> Yet Carl Jung created and believed in a collection of preposterous
> theories that capyured fantasies and imagination. But there is as
> enough evidence for the existence of "morphic resonance" as there is
> for the existence of the "collective unconscious"; yet we seem to
> grasp Jung's ideas much more readily than, say, the ideas of Sheldrake
> who is usually painted as a crackpot.
I find what I know of Jung's ideas much more entertaining than what I
know of Sheldrake's, and I don't think I'm the only one.
Jung came up with most or all of his ideas before people were doing
much experimental testing of psychological theories, so it was quite
a while before they were shown to be preposterous. On the other hand
Sheldrake's ideas are easily refuted by obvious experiments.
One of Jung's ideas, the introvert-extravert distinction, turned out to
be a real thing, as I understand it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
Mar 6, 2023, 10:30:07 AMMar 6
to
as a bunch of unconnected incidences and things. They don't realize
that there's this like lattice of coincidence that lays on top of
everything. I'll give you an example, show you what I mean. Suppose
you thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly somebody will say like
plate or shrimp or plate of shrimp out of the blue no explanation. No
point in looking for one either. It's all part of a cosmic
unconsciousness." (Miller in _Repo Man_)
--
I'm after rebellion: I'll settle for lies.
Adam Funk
Mar 6, 2023, 10:45:07 AMMar 6
to
On 2023-03-06, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> > What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> > FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> > that pigeons can find their till because
>> > there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> > which they can somehow feel.
>> >
>> > He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> > And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>>
>> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> have a Dutch cognate.
>
> The 'duiventil' is a particular kind,
> a dovecote mounted on top of a pole.
> English is less discriminate,
> a 'dovecote' can be any kind,
> even a big stone building.
> 'Pigeon loft' isn't right either.
> The 'til' part is from old Frisian.
OK, but "dovecote on a pole" (or something like that) would have made
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> > What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> > FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> > that pigeons can find their till because
>> > there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> > which they can somehow feel.
>> >
>> > He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> > And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>>
>> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> have a Dutch cognate.
>
> The 'duiventil' is a particular kind,
> a dovecote mounted on top of a pole.
> English is less discriminate,
> a 'dovecote' can be any kind,
> even a big stone building.
> 'Pigeon loft' isn't right either.
> The 'til' part is from old Frisian.
sense immediately to your anglophone readers.
--
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled. –--Richard P. Feynman
Adam Funk
Mar 6, 2023, 10:45:08 AMMar 6
to
On 2023-03-06, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>>> that pigeons can find their till because
>>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>>> which they can somehow feel.
>>>
>>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>>
>> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> have a Dutch cognate.
>>
>> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
>
> Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> Don't know of any cognates.
Thanks. Having no experience of pigeon-farming, I had no idea whether
> On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>>> that pigeons can find their till because
>>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>>> which they can somehow feel.
>>>
>>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>>
>> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> have a Dutch cognate.
>>
>> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
>
> Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> Don't know of any cognates.
that was a specialist word in English or not.
--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
---Hunter S Thompson
Jerry Friedman
Mar 6, 2023, 10:51:06 AMMar 6
to
their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
Mar 6, 2023, 12:38:33 PMMar 6
to
Campbell.
J. J. Lodder
Mar 7, 2023, 6:08:55 AMMar 7
to
Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Google find zero results for both expressions.
You could short circuit the question by substituting 'nest',
Jan
You could short circuit the question by substituting 'nest',
Jan
Adam Funk
Mar 7, 2023, 8:00:08 AMMar 7
to
On 2023-03-06, Jerry Friedman wrote:
wrong (maybe it's used by pigeon/dove enthusiasts).
In the UK & many US cities a lot of people consider "pigeons" as
nuisance birds, AKA "rats with wings" (a phrase that Greg used on
_Dharma & Greg_). Racing pigeons are a higher class variety & (in the
UK) live in "[pigeon] lofts", which to me look a lot like sheds (cf.
hut/shed subthread).
However, a British bird authority says "[t]here is no strict division
between pigeons and doves, which share certain features".
<https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/pigeons-and-doves/>
--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston
Bertel Lund Hansen
Mar 7, 2023, 9:52:29 AMMar 7
to
Den 07.03.2023 kl. 12.08 skrev J. J. Lodder:
>> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
> Google find zero results for both expressions.
> You could short circuit the question by substituting 'nest',
An Ngram with "pigeons can find their *" gives only one option for the
>> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
> Google find zero results for both expressions.
> You could short circuit the question by substituting 'nest',
last word: "way".
--
Bertel, Denmark
Phil Carmody
Mar 9, 2023, 8:25:09 AMMar 9
to
r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> and other expressions of what usually is unconscious, one cannot
> avoid discovering similarities between different people. Web:
>
> |In a minimalist interpretation of what would then appear as
> |"Jung's much misunderstood idea of the collective unconscious",
> |his idea was "simply that certain structures and predispositions
> |of the unconscious are common to all of us ... [on] an
> |inherited, species-specific, genetic basis". Thus "one could as
> |easily speak of the 'collective arm' – meaning the basic pattern
> |of bones and muscles which all human arms share in common."
If you try to turn that statement into anything which isn't somewhere
between mundane and meaningless, you'll end up with something that's
just plain wrong.
Which is generally what happens when Jung is brought into any argument.
Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>"A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life
>>as a bunch of unconnected incidences and things. They don't realize
>>that there's this like lattice of coincidence that lays on top of
>>everything. I'll give you an example, show you what I mean. Suppose
>>you thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly somebody will say like
>>plate or shrimp or plate of shrimp out of the blue no explanation. No
>>point in looking for one either. It's all part of a cosmic
>>unconsciousness." (Miller in _Repo Man_)
>
> Regarding the "collective unconscious": When one looks at dreams
>>"A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life
>>as a bunch of unconnected incidences and things. They don't realize
>>that there's this like lattice of coincidence that lays on top of
>>everything. I'll give you an example, show you what I mean. Suppose
>>you thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly somebody will say like
>>plate or shrimp or plate of shrimp out of the blue no explanation. No
>>point in looking for one either. It's all part of a cosmic
>>unconsciousness." (Miller in _Repo Man_)
>
> and other expressions of what usually is unconscious, one cannot
> avoid discovering similarities between different people. Web:
>
> |In a minimalist interpretation of what would then appear as
> |"Jung's much misunderstood idea of the collective unconscious",
> |his idea was "simply that certain structures and predispositions
> |of the unconscious are common to all of us ... [on] an
> |inherited, species-specific, genetic basis". Thus "one could as
> |easily speak of the 'collective arm' – meaning the basic pattern
> |of bones and muscles which all human arms share in common."
If you try to turn that statement into anything which isn't somewhere
between mundane and meaningless, you'll end up with something that's
just plain wrong.
Which is generally what happens when Jung is brought into any argument.
Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
Peter Moylan
Mar 10, 2023, 6:55:28 PMMar 10
to
On 07/03/23 01:49, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> One of Jung's ideas, the introvert-extravert distinction, turned out
> to be a real thing, as I understand it.
Someone who can spell those two words correctly! My faith in humanity is
> One of Jung's ideas, the introvert-extravert distinction, turned out
> to be a real thing, as I understand it.
(partly) restored.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter Moylan
Mar 10, 2023, 7:00:00 PMMar 10
to
On 07/03/23 02:51, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
In Italy you can observe lost pigeons wandering around saying "Dove?"
> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
I'll get me cote.
Ken Blake
Mar 10, 2023, 7:12:15 PMMar 10
to
On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:59:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 07/03/23 02:51, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
>In Italy you can observe lost pigeons wandering around saying "Dove?"
La risata!
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 07/03/23 02:51, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
>In Italy you can observe lost pigeons wandering around saying "Dove?"
Jerry Friedman
Mar 10, 2023, 7:41:48 PMMar 10
to
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:00:00 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 07/03/23 02:51, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
> In Italy you can observe lost pigeons wandering around saying "Dove?"
>
> I'll get me cote.
Is it tyrrhénienne?
> On 07/03/23 02:51, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
> In Italy you can observe lost pigeons wandering around saying "Dove?"
>
> I'll get me cote.
--
Jerry Friedman
bil...@shaw.ca
Mar 11, 2023, 5:15:27 PMMar 11
to
On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:51:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
When I was editing newspaper copy, I'd avoid such conundrums by
> My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>
saying something like "pigeons can find their way home".
When I was a kid in the Netherlands in the 1950s, many people,
including my father, raced pigeons. Participants would put their pigeons
in a carrier, release them an agreed-upon distance from home and record
their return to the home cote. I have no idea how cheating by recording false
times was kept out of pigeon racing. I was a kid and didn't have to worry
about that kind of thing. Similarly, what if a hawk ate your pigeon? Tough luck?
bill
Jerry Friedman
Mar 11, 2023, 5:27:53 PMMar 11
to
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:15:27 PM UTC-7, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:51:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
> >
> When I was editing newspaper copy, I'd avoid such conundrums by
> saying something like "pigeons can find their way home".
There are various Google hits for "their cote" referring to pigeons.
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:51:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
> >
> When I was editing newspaper copy, I'd avoid such conundrums by
> saying something like "pigeons can find their way home".
> When I was a kid in the Netherlands in the 1950s, many people,
> including my father, raced pigeons. Participants would put their pigeons
> in a carrier, release them an agreed-upon distance from home and record
> their return to the home cote. I have no idea how cheating by recording false
> times was kept out of pigeon racing.
they've seen. Possibly dealing with birds makes people completely
honest.
> I was a kid and didn't have to worry
> about that kind of thing.
reference to my opponents in whatever game it was.
> Similarly, what if a hawk ate your pigeon? Tough luck?
though.
--
Jerry Friedman
TonyCooper
Mar 11, 2023, 6:22:28 PMMar 11
to
On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:27:50 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:15:27?PM UTC-7, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
large group of bird watchers from the UK and Europe there. I chatted
with some and found them both quite interesting and the damndest group
of gossips I've ever been around.
All carried books in which they checked off their spots. The gossip
aspect was the many references to individual "twitchers" who recorded
dubious sightings. The ones there were honest recorders (according to
their own account), but all knew and spoke of someone who wasn't.
My interest in the group was, as you can imagine, was the photographic
equipment. I was hesitant to even carry my camera around them. Mine,
by their standards, was kindergarten kit. What was of interest to
them was my Zeiss binoculars*. Members of the group would see my
binoculars and stop to examine them and compare them to their
binoculars. (Unfavorably because mine were chosen for wide-field
sports viewing)
One pair went out on the lake in a small boat, but with a huge tripod
and long-lens-mounted camera to get from lake-to-shore photos. The
Kenyan boat operator brought them back in quickly when some hippos got
close to the boat. Hippos think it's great fun to go under a boat,
rise up, and tip over the occupants.
*I'm not if it should be "...were my Zeiss binoculars." or "...was my
Zeiss binoculars." It's a plural form of a singular item.
>
>> I was a kid and didn't have to worry
>> about that kind of thing.
>
>When I was a kid I worried a lot about cheating, though mostly in
>reference to my opponents in whatever game it was.
>
>> Similarly, what if a hawk ate your pigeon? Tough luck?
>
>I imagine so. Racing pigeons are probably not the easiest prey,
>though.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:15:27?PM UTC-7, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:51:06?AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>> >
>> When I was editing newspaper copy, I'd avoid such conundrums by
>> saying something like "pigeons can find their way home".
>
>There are various Google hits for "their cote" referring to pigeons.
>
>> When I was a kid in the Netherlands in the 1950s, many people,
>> including my father, raced pigeons. Participants would put their pigeons
>> in a carrier, release them an agreed-upon distance from home and record
>> their return to the home cote. I have no idea how cheating by recording false
>> times was kept out of pigeon racing.
>
>There's also competitive birdwatching, where people report what
>they've seen. Possibly dealing with birds makes people completely
>honest.
When we were staying in the lodge at Lake Baringo (Kenya) there was a
>>
>> > My English-usage question is whether you can say "pigeons can find
>> > their cote" or have to say "pigeons can find their dovecote".
>> >
>> When I was editing newspaper copy, I'd avoid such conundrums by
>> saying something like "pigeons can find their way home".
>
>There are various Google hits for "their cote" referring to pigeons.
>
>> When I was a kid in the Netherlands in the 1950s, many people,
>> including my father, raced pigeons. Participants would put their pigeons
>> in a carrier, release them an agreed-upon distance from home and record
>> their return to the home cote. I have no idea how cheating by recording false
>> times was kept out of pigeon racing.
>
>There's also competitive birdwatching, where people report what
>they've seen. Possibly dealing with birds makes people completely
>honest.
large group of bird watchers from the UK and Europe there. I chatted
with some and found them both quite interesting and the damndest group
of gossips I've ever been around.
All carried books in which they checked off their spots. The gossip
aspect was the many references to individual "twitchers" who recorded
dubious sightings. The ones there were honest recorders (according to
their own account), but all knew and spoke of someone who wasn't.
My interest in the group was, as you can imagine, was the photographic
equipment. I was hesitant to even carry my camera around them. Mine,
by their standards, was kindergarten kit. What was of interest to
them was my Zeiss binoculars*. Members of the group would see my
binoculars and stop to examine them and compare them to their
binoculars. (Unfavorably because mine were chosen for wide-field
sports viewing)
One pair went out on the lake in a small boat, but with a huge tripod
and long-lens-mounted camera to get from lake-to-shore photos. The
Kenyan boat operator brought them back in quickly when some hippos got
close to the boat. Hippos think it's great fun to go under a boat,
rise up, and tip over the occupants.
*I'm not if it should be "...were my Zeiss binoculars." or "...was my
Zeiss binoculars." It's a plural form of a singular item.
>
>> I was a kid and didn't have to worry
>> about that kind of thing.
>
>When I was a kid I worried a lot about cheating, though mostly in
>reference to my opponents in whatever game it was.
>
>> Similarly, what if a hawk ate your pigeon? Tough luck?
>
>I imagine so. Racing pigeons are probably not the easiest prey,
>though.
--
bil...@shaw.ca
Mar 11, 2023, 8:58:06 PMMar 11
to
On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:45:08 AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2023-03-06, Ross Clark wrote:
>
> > On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >>> which they can somehow feel.
> >>>
> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
> >>
> >> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> >> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> >> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> >> have a Dutch cognate.
> >>
> >> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> >
> > Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> > Don't know of any cognates.
> Thanks. Having no experience of pigeon-farming, I had no idea whether
> that was a specialist word in English or not.
>
People who raise pigeons are usually called pigeon fanciers. I've see a few
> On 2023-03-06, Ross Clark wrote:
>
> > On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
> >>> which they can somehow feel.
> >>>
> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
> >>
> >> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
> >> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
> >> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
> >> have a Dutch cognate.
> >>
> >> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
> >
> > Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
> > Don't know of any cognates.
> Thanks. Having no experience of pigeon-farming, I had no idea whether
> that was a specialist word in English or not.
>
references to pigeon fancying to mean what they do, and I don't doubt that is
used, but it strikes me as uncommon.
bill
TonyCooper
Mar 11, 2023, 9:25:01 PMMar 11
to
On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:58:03 -0800 (PST), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:45:08?AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2023-03-06, Ross Clark wrote:
>>
>> > On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
at state and county fairs. There's usually a judging with ribbons
awarded by type.
<bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:45:08?AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2023-03-06, Ross Clark wrote:
>>
>> > On 6/03/2023 1:09 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 6:53:50?AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
>> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> >>> which they can somehow feel.
>> >>>
>> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>> >>
>> >> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> >> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> >> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> >> have a Dutch cognate.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
>> >
>> > Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
>> > Don't know of any cognates.
>> Thanks. Having no experience of pigeon-farming, I had no idea whether
>> that was a specialist word in English or not.
>>
>People who raise pigeons are usually called pigeon fanciers. I've see a few
>references to pigeon fancying to mean what they do, and I don't doubt that is
>used, but it strikes me as uncommon.
It's very common in the US to see pigeon fanciers exhibit their birds
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>> What do you expect, it is Rupert Sheldrake.
>> >>> FYA, some Dutch professor actually tested Sheldrake's theory
>> >>> that pigeons can find their till because
>> >>> there is a 'morphogenetic field' linked to it,
>> >>> which they can somehow feel.
>> >>>
>> >>> He mounted their till on a trailer, and drove it away in their absence.
>> >>> And yes, the pigeons easily found their displaced till
>> >>
>> >> There's no appropriate sense of "till" in the OED. I thought it might
>> >> be a Dutch cognate of the "till" that means "money drawer", but the
>> >> OED says the origin of that sense is obscure, so it probably doesn't
>> >> have a Dutch cognate.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know whether you mean what they live in or what they eat from.
>> >
>> > Du til 'dove-cote', according to this little dictionary.
>> > Don't know of any cognates.
>> Thanks. Having no experience of pigeon-farming, I had no idea whether
>> that was a specialist word in English or not.
>>
>People who raise pigeons are usually called pigeon fanciers. I've see a few
>references to pigeon fancying to mean what they do, and I don't doubt that is
>used, but it strikes me as uncommon.
at state and county fairs. There's usually a judging with ribbons
awarded by type.