Knoydart

[Leslie Danks]

I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to comment:

<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>

<http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>

--
Les (BrE)
I am a conceptual thinker. Please don't bother me with facts.

[Jack Campin]

> I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
> peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to comment:
>
> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>
>
> <http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>

I've only heard "NOY-dart" here in Scotland. (I didn't follow the
links).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Mike Barnes]

Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>:

>I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
>peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to comment:
>
><http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>
>
><http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>

I'm familiar with Knoydart (assuming you mean the Scottish peninsula)
and have occasionally discussed it with other people who've been there
so I've a pretty clear idea of how it's normally spoken.

The first clip sounds rather Scandinavian but is fairly close to my
English. The first syllable, NOY, is fine. The speaker's second syllable
is "dirt" with a trilled "r". I say NOY-daht. He says NOY-dirrrt which I
would understand without difficulty.

The second clip is quite bizarre. I've never heard anything like that
and wouldn't understand it.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[James Hogg]

Leslie Danks wrote:
> I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
> peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to
> comment:
>
> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>
>
> <http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>

One is basically a spelling pronunciation of the English form of the
name. The other is the Gaelic Cnòideart. You get the same kind of
variation in Ireland. The Gaelic word for hill is "cnoc", which in
place-names often becomes "Knock" in English and thus is pronounced
"Nock". In some dialects of Gaelic an initial [kn] becomes [kr], and
therefore many place-names begin with Crock in English.

The "d" in the second syllable is palatal in Gaelic. This doesn't come
across in the anglicized version. This reminds me of the village of
Gortin in Tyrone, where the "t" is palatal in Gaelic, "Goirtín" (the "i"
before the "t" is there as an advance warning of that, like the "i" in
Cnòideart), and locals pronounce it Gorchin.

I confess I don't know why the "t" at the end of Cnòideart is pronounced
[st].

--
James

[Leslie Danks]

James Hogg wrote:

> Leslie Danks wrote:
>> I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
>> peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to
>> comment:
>>
>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>
>>
>> <http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>
>
> One is basically a spelling pronunciation of the English form of the
> name. The other is the Gaelic Cnòideart. You get the same kind of
> variation in Ireland. The Gaelic word for hill is "cnoc", which in
> place-names often becomes "Knock" in English and thus is pronounced
> "Nock".

The Gernan "Nock" also means "peak". Here is one in Upper Austria, not far
(for some values of far) from Hallstatt, a famous centre of ancient Celtic
culture.

<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoher_Nock>

Sorry it's in German. "Hoher Nock" could be translated as "High Peak".

> In some dialects of Gaelic an initial [kn] becomes [kr], and
> therefore many place-names begin with Crock in English.
>
> The "d" in the second syllable is palatal in Gaelic. This doesn't come
> across in the anglicized version. This reminds me of the village of
> Gortin in Tyrone, where the "t" is palatal in Gaelic, "Goirtín" (the "i"
> before the "t" is there as an advance warning of that, like the "i" in
> Cnòideart), and locals pronounce it Gorchin.
>
> I confess I don't know why the "t" at the end of Cnòideart is pronounced
> [st].

Many thanks to you and the other responders.

[James Hogg]

It seems to be a Gaelic corruption of a Norse place-name. Cnòid-eart is
from ON knút-fjörd, the first element of which can mean "knoll", if it
isn't Knut's fjord. Sunart (Gaelic Suaineart) is Sven's fjord.

--
James

[James Hogg]

Jack Campin wrote:
>> I've found two rather different pronunciations of "Knoydart" (as in
>> peninsula) on the Internet and I wonder if anyone would like to comment:
>>
>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knoydart.ogg>
>>
>> <http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart&submit=Submit>
>
> I've only heard "NOY-dart" here in Scotland. (I didn't follow the
> links).

The second one sounds like "cro-jarst".

--
James

[Robert Bannister]

"craw-jalst" - it's quite clear except what relevance it has to the word
in question.

--
Robert Bannister

[Andy Leighton]

It was a Gaelic speaker. In Gaelic Knoydart is Cnoideart.
Which some people pronounce something like Croin-dyarsht.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[John Dunlop]

James Hogg:

[...]

> I confess I don't know why the "t" at the end of Cnòideart is pronounced
> [st].

Some dialects have a sibilant, [s] or [S], between r and t and between
r and d, especially in stressed syllables.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100613005513/http://akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_rd.htm

http://tinyurl.com/ocrhs2z

--
John

[James Hogg]

John Dunlop wrote:
> James Hogg:
>
> [...]
>

>> I confess I don't know why the "t" at the end of Cnņideart is pronounced

>> [st].
>
> Some dialects have a sibilant, [s] or [S], between r and t and between
> r and d, especially in stressed syllables.
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20100613005513/http://akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_rd.htm
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ocrhs2z

Thanks!

--
James

[stuart...@icrea.cat]

Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi darsht

Oh yes and Mallaig is pronounced mal ik - emphasis on 1st

Stuart

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 08:20:21 -0700 (PDT), stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:

>Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi darsht

And I've just seen this thread, and I'm wondering what "both" mreans in this
context.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Leslie Danks]

Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 08:20:21 -0700 (PDT), stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:
>
>>Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct - my
>>gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it in
>>English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi darsht
>
> And I've just seen this thread, and I'm wondering what "both" mreans in
> this context.

Two different pronunciations of Knoydart:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoydart>

This is the Gaelic:

<http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=knoydart>

I can't find an English pronunciation at the moment, though I'm sure there
must be one on the Internet somewhere.

--
Les (BrE)
This article is a honeypot for typo-spotters.

[Peter Young]

On 27 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:

> Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct
> - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it
> in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi
> darsht

I might even be going there during my upcoming holiday in Ardnamurchan
(1) with my daughter and family. I think my son-in-law might like to
go to "Britain's remotest pub".

> Oh yes and Mallaig is pronounced mal ik - emphasis on 1st

We'll definitely go there, on the steam train.

(1) Pronounced something like "Arsh na Murrachan". Gaelic spelling and
pronunciation are even more weird then English spelling and
pronunciation.

Peter

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[charles]

In article <69f6e2815...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,

Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:

> > Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct
> > - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it
> > in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi
> > darsht

> I might even be going there during my upcoming holiday in Ardnamurchan
> (1) with my daughter and family.

back to Strontian?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Peter Young]

On 27 Aug 2013 charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <69f6e2815...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:

>>> Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct
>>> - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it
>>> in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi
>>> darsht

>> I might even be going there during my upcoming holiday in Ardnamurchan
>> (1) with my daughter and family.

> back to Strontian?

Where else?

Or rather, Sron Nan t'Sithean, and Heaven knows how that's pronounced.

I hadn't realised that you were here, as well as in the c.s.a*
territory.

Peter.

[James Silverton]

On 8/27/2013 2:38 PM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 27 Aug 2013 charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <69f6e2815...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
>> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:
>
>>>> Well - I have just seen this thread and can say that both are correct
>>>> - my gran (a native Gaelic speaker from Knoydart) always pronounced it
>>>> in English as no aye dhart - the h is voiced - and in Gaelic as croi
>>>> darsht
>
>>> I might even be going there during my upcoming holiday in Ardnamurchan
>>> (1) with my daughter and family.
>
>> back to Strontian?
>
> Where else?
>
> Or rather, Sron Nan t'Sithean, and Heaven knows how that's pronounced.
>
> I hadn't realised that you were here, as well as in the c.s.a*
> territory.
>
> Peter.
>

I admit that it was strange to hear the Gaelic pronunciation of
Knoydart, almost like "no jazz", even if I was brought up on the West of
Scotland and used to hike in the Gaelic speaking areas.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Curlytop]

charles set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> back to Strontian?

That's the place that the metal strontium (as in strontium-90) is named
after.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[stuart...@icrea.cat]

It's always difficult to pronounce a place name in a foreign, or at least non-native, language - for example .... And I know this is a long way from Knoydart.....where I live is written Sitges, pronounced by many in Catalunya "Sit chess" but by real locals "Sit chass" - in Knoydart my Gran gave me a great list of little place names none of which appear on maps etc - and as a little 10 year old in Glasgow I copied them all down phonetically - these places and their pronunciation are lost if this doesn't happen! Still have them all mind you :)

[Peter Young]

Do you have the pronunciation of the Gaelic form of the name of the
town of Strontian, where I will be this time next week?

[James Hogg]

Peter Young wrote:
> On 29 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:
>
>> It's always difficult to pronounce a place name in a foreign, or at
>> least non-native, language - for example .... And I know this is a
>> long way from Knoydart.....where I live is written Sitges, pronounced
>> by many in Catalunya "Sit chess" but by real locals "Sit chass" - in
>> Knoydart my Gran gave me a great list of little place names none of
>> which appear on maps etc - and as a little 10 year old in Glasgow I
>> copied them all down phonetically - these places and their
>> pronunciation are lost if this doesn't happen! Still have them all
>> mind you :)
>
> Do you have the pronunciation of the Gaelic form of the name of the
> town of Strontian, where I will be this time next week?

http://www.forvo.com/word/sr%C3%B2n_an_t-s%C3%ACthein/

--
James

[Mike Barnes]

Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>:

>On 29 Aug 2013 stuart...@icrea.cat wrote:
>
>> It's always difficult to pronounce a place name in a foreign, or at
>> least non-native, language - for example .... And I know this is a
>> long way from Knoydart.....where I live is written Sitges, pronounced
>> by many in Catalunya "Sit chess" but by real locals "Sit chass" - in
>> Knoydart my Gran gave me a great list of little place names none of
>> which appear on maps etc - and as a little 10 year old in Glasgow I
>> copied them all down phonetically - these places and their
>> pronunciation are lost if this doesn't happen! Still have them all
>> mind you :)
>
>Do you have the pronunciation of the Gaelic form of the name of the
>town of Strontian, where I will be this time next week?

I can't answer your exact question, but IME local English speakers say
"stron-TEE-uhn".

[Peter Young]

Thank-you. That's been bugging me since I first went there in 2007.

[Robert Bannister]

What a mumbler. Sounds like "straw ent she-an", but all but the first
syllable are swallowed up.

--
Robert Bannister