"Linen"
Mardon
name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you expect this to mean the
tablecloths are made of real linen? I know for a fact that they are not.
They are some kind of cotton and polyester blend. Is it correct to use the
word "linen" in this way, as a synonym for any kind of fabric?
Don Phillipson
news:Xns9A8BCB1CB5C81m...@194.177.96.78...
Linen has this meaning only in certain retail trades, e.g.
selling bedsheets and bath towels. The poster in your NG
probably meant to emphasize the restaurant used traditional
tablecloths instead of paper place mats, plastic tablecloths etc.
Not many people nowadays use linen to specify flax-based
textiles despite the functional difference (viz. that genuine linen
tea-towels polish glassware better than cotton fabrics.) In
old-fashioned stores, "personal linen" = underwear (cf. French
lingerie, linge, etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
tony cooper
Perfectly acceptable in this context to mean cloth, not paper or
plastic.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
irwell
<mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes. Table linen covers almost any fabric used for napkins, table
cloths, especially in the restaurant business.
Oleg Lego
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:28:01 +0200 (CEST), Mardon posted:
I have a linen closet in which no item is actually made of linen. We
refer to the contents collectively as 'linen'.
Maria C.
Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
"cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
A Stickler (at times),
Maria
tony cooper
wrote:
Then you object to "bed linen", "table linen", "linen closet", etc?
And this company's ad: http://www.tablecloth.com/ ?
Maria C.
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Mardon wrote:
>>
>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you
>>> expect this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know
>>> for a fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and
>>> polyester blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this
>>> way, as a synonym for any kind of fabric?
>>
>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic,
>> then "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>>
> Then you object to "bed linen", "table linen", "linen closet", etc?
No. "Linen" used in this way doesn't bother me. It is a noun and refers
to a group of various items, whereas "linen tablecloth" doesn't. "Linen
tablecloth" is specific: it means (or is taken by me to mean) a
tablecloth made of linen.
Also: I use the terms "bed linen," (and "bedclothes"), and "table
linen," and have a "linen closet." Very few of the items are actually
made of linen, though some are.
> And this company's ad: http://www.tablecloth.com/ ?
Again, no. "Table linen" refers to a group of items for the table, and
it doesn't really describe the items in detail. (I debated emailing the
company and asking what material the table linens are made of, but
decided against the idea. Anyone else want to?)
--
Maria C.
Bob Cunningham
From m-w.com:
linen
[...]
2 : clothing or household articles made of linen
cloth or similar fabric
"Similar" is a word whose meaning can conceivably be
extended to embrace any comparison.
TsuiDF
> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
> "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
I'm with Maria: if the person quoted had said, 'X restaurant uses
table linen!' then I would have understood they meant 'instead of
paper'. But the original quote said the place used 'linen
tablecloths' -- in which case there is *no* way I would have
understood the speaker to mean 'well, something made of cloth at any
rate'.
I too have a linen cupboard and understand when shops advertise
'linens' that they don't mean items made only from a flax-derived
fibre. But I also know which ones of my linens are linen and which
are not. I'm very glad I bought the real linen linens decades ago
because even a linen dinner napkin would be off the budget scale these
days, it seems.
cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels
James Silverton
??>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a
??>> local restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths."
??>> Would you expect this to mean the tablecloths are made of
??>> real linen? I know for a fact that they are not. They are
??>> some kind of cotton and polyester blend. Is it correct to
??>> use the word "linen" in this way, as a synonym for any
??>> kind of fabric?
MC> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
MC> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen.
MC> If that someone just means that the table covering is not
MC> paper or plastic, then "cloth" tablecloth would be the
MC> better term.
Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
goods made from them.
3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
Often spec. = undergarments, e.g. shirts; also = bed-linen,
table-linen. to wash one's dirty linen at home: to say nothing
in public about family affairs, disputes, or scandals. to wash
one's dirty linen in public: to discuss an essentially private
matter, esp. a dispute or scandal, in public.
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Woody Wordpecker
<not.jim....@verizon.not> said:
> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
> goods made from them.
>
> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
Or the cups and saucers we wash when we wash the other
"dishes".
Fred Springer
> On Apr 26, 6:51 am, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
>> "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>
> I'm with Maria: if the person quoted had said, 'X restaurant uses
> table linen!' then I would have understood they meant 'instead of
> paper'. But the original quote said the place used 'linen
> tablecloths' -- in which case there is *no* way I would have
> understood the speaker to mean 'well, something made of cloth at any
> rate'.
Yes, in this context the word order is vital, because it distinguishes
the noun from the adjectival usage of the word. A "linen tablecloth" is
made from flax fibres; "bed linen" and "table linen" can be made from
any textile fibre.
The joker in the pack is "linen cupboard" which is not made from any
textile fibre at all. How complex language is, to be sure.
Maria C.
> Maria wrote on Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400:
>
>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a
>
>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>
> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
> goods made from them.
>
> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
> Often spec. = undergarments, e.g. shirts; also = bed-linen,
> table-linen. to wash one's dirty linen at home: to say nothing
> in public about family affairs, disputes, or scandals. to wash
> one's dirty linen in public: to discuss an essentially private
> matter, esp. a dispute or scandal, in public.
But: the term in question is "linen tablecloths," not "table linen[s]."
I see a definite difference. For one thing, "linen tablecloth" is not a
common term for a tablecloth made of something other than linen, whereas
the term "table linens" can (and does), in common usage, cover a
multitude of items and fabrics.
(And, btw, thanks to Stephanie and Fred. GMTA.)
--
Maria C.
Maria C.
> James Silverton said:
>
>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>> goods made from them.
>>
>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>
> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
"Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
changes.
> Or the cups and saucers we wash when we wash the other
> "dishes".
Properly or not, I think of "dishes" as just about anything in the
cupboard (which holds much more than cups, of course).
--
Maria
tony cooper
wrote:
>James Silverton wrote:
A tablecloth made of some natural material other than linen would be
"cloth tablecloth". That just sounds too awkward for me. To say that
the restaurant serves on "Polyester blend table coverings"
The idea of saying "The restaurant uses linen tablecloths" is not
intended to deceive, but to distinguish that the restaurant does not
serve on plastic table coverings. It's part of a description of the
overall tone of the place. To say that the restaurant serves on
"Polyester blend table coverings" may be accurate, but it's an
off-putting description.
It would be an entirely different thing to see an advertisement for
the sale of "linen tablecloths" and to find that what was being
offered was something other than actual linen.
irwell
wrote:
>James Silverton wrote:
Then there is Pure Irish Linen, no other fibres included.
Nick
> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>> James Silverton said:
>>
>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>> goods made from them.
>>>
>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>
>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>
> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
> circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
> spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
> usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
> one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
> changes.
But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
HVS
"Plastic cutlery" is definitely the term I'd use for the picnic
kit; I don't think I've ever encountered the term "plastic
silverware".
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
We've pushed this topic about the plate before. Originally, and
I believe still in some contexts, "cutlery" refers to knives.
There is a clue in "cut-".
I'm trying to recall without success whether "cutlery" is more
common for "eating irons" (not necessarily made of iron) in BrE
than in AmE.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
tony cooper
<1-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
Or, indeed, "flatware". In the US, "cutlery" would be knives.
Flatware is knives, forks, spoons, etc. While sterling, silverplate,
and stainless implements are all "flatware", the use of the unadorned
"flatware" connotes stainless steel.
Mardon
> But: the term in question is "linen tablecloths," not "table linen[s]."
> I see a definite difference. For one thing, "linen tablecloth" is not a
> common term for a tablecloth made of something other than linen, whereas
> the term "table linens" can (and does), in common usage, cover a
> multitude of items and fabrics.
Thanks to everyone for the replies. Some good arguments have been put
forward. Personally, I agree with Maria. I think "table linen" might mean
any fabric but that "linen tablecloths" ought to mean real linen. I
checked the M-W dictionary before making my original post and this is also
the way that I interpreted the dictionary definition.
I recognize that in the 'real world' linen is rare, so I never really
expected the restaurant to have real linen. I was just curious about the
correct usage of the term "linen tablecloths". It appears even the experts
are not unanimous.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> tony cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mardon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>>>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you
>>>> expect this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know
>>>> for a fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and
>>>> polyester blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this
>>>> way, as a synonym for any kind of fabric?
>>>
>>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>>> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic,
>>> then "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
[ ... ]
>
>> And this company's ad: http://www.tablecloth.com/ ?
>
> Again, no. "Table linen" refers to a group of items for the table, and
> it doesn't really describe the items in detail.
I was expected Maria to say yes, and I was going to say I agreed. As it
turns out, however, I disagree with you both. What companies say in
advertisements should be strictly true, and if it isn't they should be
liable. What people say in news groups comes with no guarantee.
Getting back to the original question, therefore, I have no objection
to someone say that in a news group, but I might object if the
restaurant in question had an advertisement claiming something that
wasn't true.
What I don't know, however, if the word "linen" has a legally
established meaning. It's probably quite different from writing "Irish
Linen" followed by a trademark symbol.
--
athel
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:50:32 -0400:
That is an odd word to use. What is flat about it?
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
HVS
It's flat when compared with tableware in the form of platees, cups,
tureens, etc.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> said:
[ ... ]
>>
>> But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
>
> We've pushed this topic about the plate before. Originally, and
> I believe still in some contexts, "cutlery" refers to knives.
> There is a clue in "cut-".
>
> I'm trying to recall without success whether "cutlery" is more
> common for "eating irons" (not necessarily made of iron) in BrE
> than in AmE.
When I was a child we didn't use any of the terms mentioned so far, we
talked about "knives and forks" (which included spoons). I don't think
I encountered "flatware" at all before I went to the US, and I would
have been surprised to hear "silverware" used to refer to stuff that
wasn't made of silver (or at the very least looked as if it was, like
EPNS).
--
athel (BrE)
Skitt
> tony cooper wrote:
>>> But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
>>
>> Or, indeed, "flatware". In the US, "cutlery" would be knives.
>> Flatware is knives, forks, spoons, etc. While sterling, silverplate,
>> and stainless implements are all "flatware", the use of the unadorned
>> "flatware" connotes stainless steel.
>
> That is an odd word to use. What is flat about it?
I know -- flat spoons don't work well at all.
--
Skitt (AmE)
R H Draney
There may be regional variations here...the character of "The Blue Rajah" in the
movie "Mystery Men" had as his superpower the ability to throw "cutlery", but
decided that knives were too much of a cliche...so he subdued the bad guys by
throwing forks at them....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
tony cooper
wrote:
It contrasts to the rest of the silver on the table which is called
"holloware".
tony cooper
If you can't deal with "linen tablecloths", how are you going to deal
with "home-cooking" in restaurants?
Will you be disappointed when the check arrives and it's not made out
to you? And is, instead, an invoice?
Mardon
news:h0t614tb6eebucaba...@4ax.com:
> If you can't deal with "linen tablecloths", how are you going to deal
> with "home-cooking" in restaurants?
I don't accept the term "home-cooking" unless it's cooked in a home. Every
time I see it on a menu in a restaurant it annoys me. :)
> Will you be disappointed when the check arrives and it's not made out
> to you? And is, instead, an invoice?
I'm a stickler but not naive. I'm not disappointed when this happens; just
annoyed. In the area where I live it's called a "guest cheque".
"Invoice" would be so much more accurate.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Ian Noble
wrote:
>Mardon wrote:
>
>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you expect
>> this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know for a
>> fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and polyester
>> blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this way, as a
>> synonym for any kind of fabric?
>
>Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
>"cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>
>A Stickler (at times),
>Maria
Agreed. Although I have to point out that Mardon's convictions to the
contrary don't preclude the possibility that the poster refered may
have genuinely believed the tablecloths to be linen.
Cheers - Ian
Hatunen
I always assumed it came from the fact that stainless and other
"silverware" are made by stamping and die-cutting flat sheets of
metal.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:08:06 +0200 (CEST), Mardon
><mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> But: the term in question is "linen tablecloths," not "table linen[s]."
>>> I see a definite difference. For one thing, "linen tablecloth" is not a
>>> common term for a tablecloth made of something other than linen, whereas
>>> the term "table linens" can (and does), in common usage, cover a
>>> multitude of items and fabrics.
>>
>>Thanks to everyone for the replies. Some good arguments have been put
>>forward. Personally, I agree with Maria. I think "table linen" might mean
>>any fabric but that "linen tablecloths" ought to mean real linen. I
>>checked the M-W dictionary before making my original post and this is also
>>the way that I interpreted the dictionary definition.
>>
>>I recognize that in the 'real world' linen is rare, so I never really
>>expected the restaurant to have real linen. I was just curious about the
>>correct usage of the term "linen tablecloths". It appears even the experts
>>are not unanimous.
>
>If you can't deal with "linen tablecloths", how are you going to deal
>with "home-cooking" in restaurants?
"Linen" ahs become a sort of generic term. For instance the
sheets and pillowslips for a bed are sometimes called "bed
linens" even when they are cotton. I figure it's a hangover from
the days before the invention of the cotton gin when linen was
more common than cotton.
How come no one has written a song about "the girl with the
cottony hair"?
Nick
And yet the handles of metal knives and forks are often hollow, while
bowls are concave but no more so than spoons.
Mike Lyle
It must, since the distinction actually matters. I actually looked at
some pure linen teatowels in Waitrose the other week, as mine are
getting tatty, and was aghast at the price: £5.95. I have a linen
mixture suit, and would have been the victim of a fraud if the word on
the labels had been intended to mean no more than "buff-coloured" or
something.
I think I've reminisced before about a grandmother who in every
Christmas parcel used to include an Australian souvenir Irish linen
teatowel.
I'm with Maria, by the way.
--
Mike.
Bob Cunningham
<use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> said:
[...]
> I don't think I've ever encountered the term "plastic
> silverware".
I probably haven't either, but if I ever do decide to say
it, I'll expect a variety of reactions: Some people will
think nothing of it except to accept it with its intended
meaning; some will chuckle a bit at its absurdity, will take
it as a joke, but will still understand perfectly what is
meant; others will inwardly shudder at my ignorance, but
will politely make no comment; still others will shudder
inwardly or outwardly and will take me to task for my error.
It takes all kinds of others to make a world.
Woody Wordpecker
<non...@sbcglobal.net> said:
> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
> > James Silverton said:
> >
> >> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
> >> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
> >> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
> >> goods made from them.
> >>
> >> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
> >> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
> >> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
> >
> > Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>
> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
> circumstances given, is not deceptive, either.
Circling back to the topic under discussion, neither is
"linen". That's why I brought up plastic silverware as an
added example of the sort of thing we were discussing.
People have mentioned various possibilities for referring to
knives, forks, and spoons while avoiding the word
"silverware".
"Cutlery" has been rejected because we don't often use
spoons to cut. "Flatware" is under a cloud because spoons
aren't flat.
How about "utensils", or more specifically "eating
utensils"?
franzi
I suppose the cloud over flatware is stratus. The former Archbishop
Runcible (see Cantuar) ought to have an opinion on spooning, but is,
alas, absent. The Cutlers' Company in Sheffield should also have a
view on cutlery, but I can't even find a web site for them, though
there's one for Cutlers Hall which offers an Easter Egg Hunt, Win the
Wedding of your Dreams, and Brides Reunited. Sheffield, Sheffield,
can this be you?
>
> How about "utensils", or more specifically "eating
> utensils"?
Dull. And what is worse, we don't know where it ends. Those bendy,
snappy, plastic doll's tea-party pricks and paddles that airlines
offer to steerage class would be included, as would chopsticks and
cocktail sticks. "Knives-and-forks", mentioned by another poster
whose name is inaccessible to me right now, works if taught to a child
early enough, and "silver" does of course work for those who have
nothing else.
--
franzi
TsuiDF
>
> But: the term in question is "linen tablecloths," not "table linen[s]."
> I see a definite difference. For one thing, "linen tablecloth" is not a
> common term for a tablecloth made of something other than linen, whereas
> the term "table linens" can (and does), in common usage, cover a
> multitude of items and fabrics.
>
> (And, btw, thanks to Stephanie and Fred. GMTA.)
I have this on Good Authority, you know. By which I mean, LFS agrees
with us -- and we discussed it at lunch at a table covered with a
cloth that I'm fairly sure was made of linen, or something doing an
impressive imitation thereof.
But more on that in another thread, which I should start soon, or
she'll think I didn't take notes in my fabulous new notebook, which I
did, really I did.
cheers,
Stephanie
TsuiDF
> If you can't deal with "linen tablecloths", how are you going to deal
> with "home-cooking" in restaurants?
I could understand someone saying 'that place uses real tablecloths'
-- but 'linen' when it's polyester? No, just no. Of course, I tend
to go on weaving courses where we talk about fibres and have Finnish
and Estonian friends and colleagues, who are very picky about and
proud of their linen. But I really don't think that's where I picked
this up, I think it's a clear difference in usage between 'linen Xes'
and 'linens' or 'linen' in its non-count form.
But it *is* a pain to weave or to iron, I'll grant you that.
cheers,
Stephanie
Woody Wordpecker
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
[...]
> I'm with Maria, by the way.
I am too. What did she say?
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USA
I've been young and I've been old; young is better.
-- Woody Wordpecker
(Paraphrasing Sophie Tucker)
Barbara Bailey
b96c-c9e...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
> On Apr 26, 8:33 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> If you can't deal with "linen tablecloths", how are you going to deal
>> with "home-cooking" in restaurants?
>
> I could understand someone saying 'that place uses real tablecloths'
> -- but 'linen' when it's polyester? No, just no. Of course, I tend
> to go on weaving courses where we talk about fibres and have Finnish
> and Estonian friends and colleagues, who are very picky about and
> proud of their linen. But I really don't think that's where I picked
> this up, I think it's a clear difference in usage between 'linen Xes'
> and 'linens' or 'linen' in its non-count form.
I think that it could simpply be that many blends are now difficult to tell
from real, pure linen without doing a fiber test, and that, to many
Americans under a certain age, who have had little to no exposure to real
linen, "linen" used to describe a fabric means a texture or weight rather
than a fiber content.
Charles Bishop
<non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Mardon wrote:
>
>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you expect
>> this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know for a
>> fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and polyester
>> blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this way, as a
>> synonym for any kind of fabric?
>
>Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
>"cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>
The people who bring fresh ones for a restaraunt, will probably be a Linen
Supply company.
>A Stickler (at times),
>Maria
charles, I have a feeling it's a losing battle, bishop
R H Draney
Chopsticks are definitely included in my standard definition of "eating
utensils", both at home and in the supplies I keep in the bottom desk drawer at
the office...there are some dishes that simply feel "wrong" to eat with a
fork....r
Oleg Lego
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:50:32 -0400, tony cooper posted:
Interesting. "Flatware" to me is the same as cutlery, but is a
particular kind; that which is die-cut and stamped to shape.
tony cooper
wrote:
I have mentioned before that I collect early sterling silver items.
Among the reference books I have to identify sterling silver patterns
is Mary Ann Dolan's "American Sterling Silver Flatware". Any research
I do on makers or patterns starts with looking up "sterling silver
flatware". "Flatware" would be the category of any table knife,
fork, spoon, or specialty utensil made by a US firm or silvermaker.
In my world, "cutlery" is reserved for carving knives. The dinner
knife, butter knife, or fish knife is not in the cutlery group.
All eating utensils are "flatware", but the sugar bowl or the serving
bowl would be "holloware". The only real difference in researching
American-made sterling silver items and European-made sterling silver
is that we don't use "hallmarks". The mark on an American piece is
the "trademark" or "maker's mark". My "Encyclopedia of American
Silver Manufacturers" lists 2,200 "marks" going back to silversmiths
of the early 1800s, but doesn't mention the word "hallmark".
The modern, die-cut, stamped-to-shape, stainless steel utensil is
"flatware", but in the broad usage of the term "flatware".
Paul Wolff
>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:31:35 -0400, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net>
>wrote:
>>James Silverton wrote:
>>> Maria wrote on Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400:
>>>
>>>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a
>>>>> local restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths."
>>>>> Would you expect this to mean the tablecloths are made of
>>>>> real linen? I know for a fact that they are not. They are
>>>>> some kind of cotton and polyester blend. Is it correct to
>>>>> use the word "linen" in this way, as a synonym for any
>>>>> kind of fabric?
>>>
>>>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>>>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen.
>>>> If that someone just means that the table covering is not
>>>> paper or plastic, then "cloth" tablecloth would be the
>>>> better term.
>>>
>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>> goods made from them.
>>
>>I see a definite difference. For one thing, "linen tablecloth" is not a
>>common term for a tablecloth made of something other than linen, whereas
>>the term "table linens" can (and does), in common usage, cover a
>>multitude of items and fabrics.
>>
>>(And, btw, thanks to Stephanie and Fred. GMTA.)
Even mine does.
>
>A tablecloth made of some natural material other than linen would be
>"cloth tablecloth". That just sounds too awkward for me.
But there is no compulsion to say "cloth tablecloth". You could say:
tablecloth
fabric tablecloth
woven tablecloth
textile tablecloth
printed tablecloth
cotton tablecloth
polyester tablecloth
nylon tablecloth
linen tablecloth
according to the information you wanted to convey -- and to say that the
tablecloth is a linen tablecloth is a very clear statement which
qualifies the cloth. It is a linen cloth. If I say I have linen
bedsheets, exactly the same considerations apply: my bedlinen is of
linen. The fact that 'linen' does double duty at other times as meaning
household textiles of various kinds doesn't get in the way.
>
>The idea of saying "The restaurant uses linen tablecloths" is not
>intended to deceive, but to distinguish that the restaurant does not
>serve on plastic table coverings. It's part of a description of the
>overall tone of the place. To say that the restaurant serves on
>"Polyester blend table coverings" may be accurate, but it's an
>off-putting description.
It's off-putting because it makes the place sound like the canteen in a
polyester textile mill. There's no point in giving that level of detail
in the information unless it is important - maybe the food is
indescribable, so the restaurant critic tries to do an honest job with
the table coverings instead.
>
>It would be an entirely different thing to see an advertisement for
>the sale of "linen tablecloths" and to find that what was being
>offered was something other than actual linen.
>
I see it as entirely the same thing.
--
Paul
Woody Wordpecker
<et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> said:
[...]
> "Knives-and-forks", mentioned by another poster
> whose name is inaccessible to me right now, works if taught to a child
> early enough,
Especially if you want the child to grow up thinking spoons
have no name.
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USofA
Let those who have the least to lose be spearheads of new forms.
Let those who want to win respect observe accepted norms.
-- Woody Wordpecker
Chuck Riggs
<acor...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2008-04-26 08:28:28 +0200, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> said:
>
>> tony cooper wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mardon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>>>>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you
>>>>> expect this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know
>>>>> for a fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and
>>>>> polyester blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this
>>>>> way, as a synonym for any kind of fabric?
>>>>
>>>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>>>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>>>> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic,
>>>> then "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>
>[ ... ]
>>
>>> And this company's ad: http://www.tablecloth.com/ ?
>>
>> Again, no. "Table linen" refers to a group of items for the table, and
>> it doesn't really describe the items in detail.
>
>I was expected Maria to say yes, and I was going to say I agreed. As it
>turns out, however, I disagree with you both. What companies say in
>advertisements should be strictly true, and if it isn't they should be
>liable. What people say in news groups comes with no guarantee.
>
>Getting back to the original question, therefore, I have no objection
>to someone say that in a news group, but I might object if the
>restaurant in question had an advertisement claiming something that
>wasn't true.
>
>What I don't know, however, if the word "linen" has a legally
>established meaning. It's probably quite different from writing "Irish
>Linen" followed by a trademark symbol.
From the Wikipedia entry:
Irish Linen yarn is defined as yarn which is spun in Ireland from 100%
flax fibres. Irish Linen fabric is defined as fabric which is woven in
Ireland from 100% linen yarns. Some people mistakenly believe, that to
be genuine Irish linen, every stage, from the growing of the flax, to
the weaving, must take place in Ireland. Flax is not Irish linen,
Irish linen is made from flax. What constitutes genuine Irish linen
has been defined by the Irish Linen Guild. To be Irish linen fabric
the yarns do not necessarily have to come from an Irish spinner, and
to be Irish linen yarn the flax fibre does not have to be grown in
Ireland. However, the skills, craftsmanship, and technology that go
into spinning the yarn must be Irish, as is the case with Irish linen
fabric, the design and weaving skills must be Irish, and must take
place in Ireland.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>> James Silverton said:
>>
>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>> goods made from them.
>>>
>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>
>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>
>"Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
>circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
>spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
>usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
>one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
>changes.
>
>> Or the cups and saucers we wash when we wash the other
>> "dishes".
>
>Properly or not, I think of "dishes" as just about anything in the
>cupboard (which holds much more than cups, of course).
I don't think of cupboard contents as _dishes_, as in "You'll find the
dishes in the cupboard". That, and variations on it, isn't in my
vernacular, for I'd be thinking "What, dirty dishes in the cupboard?".
I've generally had cups, mugs, glasses, bowls and plates in my
cupboards, but never _dishes_, as such. I have "washed the dishes"
many times, but when retrieving them or using them, they become
specific articles. I'd find nothing remarkable about "put away the
dishes", though.
Chuck Riggs
<1-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>Maria C. wrote:
>> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>>> James Silverton said:
>>>
>>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>>> goods made from them.
>>>>
>>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>>
>>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>>
>> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
>> circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
>> spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
>> usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
>> one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
>> changes.
>
>But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
Isn't the first typical in AmE and the second in BrE, only?
Chuck Riggs
>On 26 Apr 2008, Nick wrote
>
>> Maria C. wrote:
>>> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>>>> James Silverton said:
>>>>
>>>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English
>>>>> Dictionary supports the extension of "linen" to include other
>>>>> fabrics and goods made from them.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>>>
>>>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>>>
>>> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware"
>>> alone, in the circumstances given, is not deceptive, either.
>>> Most forks and knives and spoons in the silverware drawer are
>>> not made of silver; people do not usually expect to see real
>>> silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if one says, "I'm
>>> going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
>>> changes.
>>
>> But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
>
>"Plastic cutlery" is definitely the term I'd use for the picnic
>kit; I don't think I've ever encountered the term "plastic
>silverware".
The way I usually solve this conundrum is to say "plastic knife,
plastic fork or plastic spoon". I don't recall a time when I've been
forced to use the awkward "plastic ware" or the sissy "plastic
utensils".
Chuck Riggs
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:22:19 +0100, Nick
><1-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Maria C. wrote:
>>> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>>>> James Silverton said:
>>>>
>>>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>>>> goods made from them.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>>>
>>>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>>>
>>> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
>>> circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
>>> spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
>>> usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
>>> one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
>>> changes.
>>
>>But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
>
>We've pushed this topic about the plate before. Originally, and
>I believe still in some contexts, "cutlery" refers to knives.
>There is a clue in "cut-".
>
>I'm trying to recall without success whether "cutlery" is more
>common for "eating irons" (not necessarily made of iron) in BrE
>than in AmE.
That sounds like something a cowboy might utter. I'll have to remember
to ask my sister, living in New Mexico, if the bucks there talk that
way, perhaps around the ole campfire.
Chuck Riggs
>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:22:19 +0100, Nick
><1-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Maria C. wrote:
>>> Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>>>> James Silverton said:
>>>>
>>>>> Despite the logic of your opinion, it seems a bit too late to
>>>>> change a long-established usage. The Oxford English Dictionary
>>>>> supports the extension of "linen" to include other fabrics and
>>>>> goods made from them.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. collect. a. Garments or other articles made of linen;
>>>>> often by extension applied to garments normally or originally
>>>>> made of linen, even when other materials are actually used.
>>>>
>>>> Like the "plastic silverware" we might take for a picnic.
>>>
>>> "Plastic silverware" is not a deceptive term. "Silverware" alone, in the
>>> circumstances given, is not deceptive, either. Most forks and knives and
>>> spoons in the silverware drawer are not made of silver; people do not
>>> usually expect to see real silver when "silverware" is mentioned. But if
>>> one says, "I'm going to get out the silver for dinner, the expectation
>>> changes.
>>
>>But why use "silverware" at all when you have "cutlery"?
>
>Or, indeed, "flatware".
...a pussy term seen in advertisements occasionally, but one that no
red-blooded man or woman actually uses.
In the US, "cutlery" would be knives.
>Flatware is knives, forks, spoons, etc. While sterling, silverplate,
>and stainless implements are all "flatware", the use of the unadorned
>"flatware" connotes stainless steel.
--
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
This webpage agrees:
http://www.martsville.co.uk/The_Wild_West_Western_Talk.htm#E%20E%20E
EATING IRONS
Cowboy talk for silverware. [Adams]
I know it from BrE. I probably first met the phrase in the RAF
(Royal Airforce):
http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/rafanasaurus.html
Eating Irons - See Diggers, Scran Rods.
Diggers - Cutlery for eating your scran in the mess. Also
known as Scran Rods, Eating Irons.
Scran is food.
The British Army knows the phrase:
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Eating_Irons
Eating Irons
Same as KFS.
See also Gobblin Rods, Scran Spanners, Racing Spoon
Warning: following links on that site can be a seriously time
gobblin activity and can lead to yet another slang term for
penis: middle wicket (cricket not croquet):
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Middle_wicket
That entry has some terms that I've not met before.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
R J Valentine
I may be on the other side of that. I've got a drawer full of plastic
silverware that I use in preference to the stainless-steel silverware my
wife likes. But it's not the breakable pastic you see in fast-food
restaurants. It's something like Lexan, and I got it all at a camping
store back in Greater Laurel (Fourth Largest Metropolitan Area in
America). The forks feel right and the knives cut anything and the spoons
come in both right sizes (stirring and eating). But, when we get Amish
barbecued chicken Saturdays at the farm up the road (comes with sides and
soda) I toss the plastic silverware that comes free with it into the bin
we have for things too good to throw out and use the *real* plastic
silverware.
The only thing I use the stainless-steel silverware for is poking holes in
the semibulletproof plastic that covers the microwaveable dish that
Compleats come in. (9, 0, Start on the microwave, now that I've branched
out from just pressing Popcorn.)
Now, I _say_ Lexan, but it seems to be a slightly different material than
the Lexan china that I got at the same camping store, which is all green
transparent stuff, where the silverware is green or grey but not
transparent. Plus which, all the "unbreakable" plastic china has cracked,
except the cereal bowls, which have survived nicely, for some reason. I
alternate between them and the deep (twice as deep as the ones that come
with the basic set, but the same lids fit) Corelle cereal bowls in the
company-china cabinet.
My favorite linen seems to be made of bamboo, anymore.
--
rjv
Nick Spalding
<lc0914hhb160jvt9u...@4ax.com>
on Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:01:58 +0100:
It was used in my family, possibly from my pa who was in the RN.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
tony cooper
<boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>The idea of saying "The restaurant uses linen tablecloths" is not
>>intended to deceive, but to distinguish that the restaurant does not
>>serve on plastic table coverings. It's part of a description of the
>>overall tone of the place. To say that the restaurant serves on
>>"Polyester blend table coverings" may be accurate, but it's an
>>off-putting description.
>
>It's off-putting because it makes the place sound like the canteen in a
>polyester textile mill. There's no point in giving that level of detail
>in the information unless it is important - maybe the food is
>indescribable, so the restaurant critic tries to do an honest job with
>the table coverings instead.
>>
>>It would be an entirely different thing to see an advertisement for
>>the sale of "linen tablecloths" and to find that what was being
>>offered was something other than actual linen.
>>
>I see it as entirely the same thing.
The reason that I feel the two misrepresentations are entirely
different is that if you went to a restaurant where a review noted
that they used linen tablecloths, and found that the tablecloths were
actually a cotton-polyester blend, your dining experience would not be
diminished by this one undelivered feature. You would rate the dining
experience on the food, the service, and the ambiance.
However, if you went to a store expecting to find "linen tablecloths"
on sale, and found only cotton-polyester blend tablecloths on sale,
you could be disappointed because of this - and no other - reason.
You might salvage the day if you found that the store stocked just the
right kind of fish slice, but you would feel that you had wasted your
time and gasoline because of the misleading ad.
Also, you would not necessarily expect a food critic to be
knowledgeable about fabrics. You would not fault A.A. Gill by saying
"He may know what makes a Bernaise sauce good, but he doesn't know
linen from cotton." You would expect a store to know what they are
advertising, though.
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> But there is no compulsion to say "cloth tablecloth". You could say:
> tablecloth
> fabric tablecloth
> woven tablecloth
Which raises one of my personal Danielisms. I'll try not to be too
irritating, but I've just got to mention it. How did "fabric" and
"material" shift so sharply in meaning?
I'd find it less baffling if the broader meanings had actually died out,
and if lay people never talked about the stuff non-clothy things are
made of. But we seem to have a situation in which the ordinary default
sense of both words is "cloth", but in which experts in numerous fields
still use the words properly and non-experts seem only to have "stuff".
irwell
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Also, you would not necessarily expect a food critic to be
>knowledgeable about fabrics.
A restaurant reviewer will not confine his/her remarks
to just the quality of the food.
Nick Spalding
on Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:20:46 -0700:
In fact A.A. Gill, whom Tony mentioned, typically only uses about one
third of each review for the actual food and making false claims about the
table linen is just the sort of thing he would comment on.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
CDB
"Etoffe", like? And, in Spanish, "madera" means "wood". What,
indeed, of the "fabric" on that loom? There may be a
human -headedness tendency unfolding here. Or a Western European one,
at least.
"Danielism" makes me feel guilty even as I 'preciate it. I fear
(ITBSOTW) it's a keeper.
J. J. Lodder
Paul Wolff
of fabric, of material, in contexts where it is important to be clear
that I mean a textile product. I suppose I am not adding much
information content to this discussion by saying that I find the
nomenclature confusing. Looking at Chambers, 36 years old, I see that
cloth means a woven material, while textile means a woven fabric.
Fabric is manufactured cloth, while material is a fabric. Stuff seems
to be the outsider, but may be cloth, quite far down the list. But as
for Mike's question about shifted meaning to fabric and material, is it
that the starting point for fabric is that which is made, perhaps even
by a faber, while for material it is matter? I guess I too have no
answer to the textile shift. Face it, stuff happens.
--
Paul
Robert Bannister
> The way I usually solve this conundrum is to say "plastic knife,
> plastic fork or plastic spoon". I don't recall a time when I've been
> forced to use the awkward "plastic ware" or the sissy "plastic
> utensils".
Precisely, although if we say "We'll use the plastic knives and forks",
we might be including spoons in that.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> In my world, "cutlery" is reserved for carving knives. The dinner
> knife, butter knife, or fish knife is not in the cutlery group.
Interesting. In my world, "cutlery" is only used for the tools you eat
with and so doesn't even usually cover serving spoons, let alone carving
knives.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Chopsticks are definitely included in my standard definition of "eating
> utensils", both at home and in the supplies I keep in the bottom desk drawer at
> the office...there are some dishes that simply feel "wrong" to eat with a
> fork....r
I went through a period when I was sufficiently skilful to pick up a
single grain of rice with chopsticks. Then, I lost interest in Chinese,
Vietnamese and Japanese food and turned to Thai, whereupon I discovered
that all Thai restaurants (here, at least) supply you with knife, fork
and spoon. Since then, I have decided to use whichever utensil seems to
work best and frequently eat my spaghetti with a spoon, rather than with
the traditional fork-spoon-twirling method.
I can't help feeling that chopsticks are rather silly. They're okay, if
you eat in the disgusting Chinese way of just shovelling the food in
from your bowl, but unnecessarily complicated if you follow the finicky
Japanese method.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
There are restaurant reviewers and restaurant reviewers. Some seem to
have very little interest in whether the food is enjoyable and
satisfying, but are more concerned about presentation and trivia. I've
read a few like that and never once been persuaded to visit the
restaurant under review.
--
Rob Bannister
Nell
Ever try a "spork"? You can't eat a blasted thing with them.
Nell
--
Thou shouldst eat to live; not live to eat.
~~Socrates
Oleg Lego
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:40:59 -0400, Nell posted:
I like to use a floor.
Oleg Lego
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:40:59 -0400, Nell posted:
>R H Draney pretended :
Drat! Hit the wrong button on the spall chukar.
I like to use a fpoon.
Hatunen
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> But there is no compulsion to say "cloth tablecloth". You could say:
>> tablecloth
>> fabric tablecloth
>> woven tablecloth
>[...]
>
>Which raises one of my personal Danielisms. I'll try not to be too
>irritating, but I've just got to mention it. How did "fabric" and
>"material" shift so sharply in meaning?
You mean like how did the word for a workshop or factory come to
mean a textile?
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
K. Edgcombe
Paul Wolff <pa...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote
>>>>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a
>>>>>> local restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths."
>>>>> better term.
>>"cloth tablecloth". That just sounds too awkward for me.
"Real tablecloths" is what I would say.
Of course, there is a bit of a blur between synthetic fabric and the
better sorts of plastic. The proper distinction might be "woven" but, while I
doubt whether people knit tablecloths, I'm sure they crochet them. "Real"
conveniently skates over all these difficulties.
Katy
James Silverton
??>> Chopsticks are definitely included in my standard
??>> definition of "eating utensils", both at home and in the
??>> supplies I keep in the bottom desk drawer at the
??>> office...there are some dishes that simply feel "wrong" to
??>> eat with a fork....r
RB> I went through a period when I was sufficiently skilful to
RB> pick up a single grain of rice with chopsticks. Then, I
RB> lost interest in Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese food and
RB> turned to Thai, whereupon I discovered that all Thai
RB> restaurants (here, at least) supply you with knife, fork
RB> and spoon. Since then, I have decided to use whichever
RB> utensil seems to work best and frequently eat my spaghetti
RB> with a spoon, rather than with the traditional
RB> fork-spoon-twirling method.
Perhaps, your favorite Thai restaurants supply you with a knife
but, in Thailand and the better Thai restaurants around here, a
knife is not usual.
I have never lost interest in any type of Asian food and I
maintain my dexterity with chopsticks. I do use a fork with
Indian food, not the fingers of my *right* hand as was
traditional. I would disagree with you about spaghetti, I don't
use a spoon and fork; only a fork. If I had to use only a spoon,
I think I would have to cut up the pasta.
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Hatunen
wrote:
So where do you figure oilcloth fits in this scheme?
Skitt
> Robert wrote:
>>> Chopsticks are definitely included in my standard
>>> definition of "eating utensils", both at home and in the
>>> supplies I keep in the bottom desk drawer at the
>>> office...there are some dishes that simply feel "wrong" to
>>> eat with a fork....r
>
>> I went through a period when I was sufficiently skilful to
>> pick up a single grain of rice with chopsticks. Then, I
>> lost interest in Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese food and
>> turned to Thai, whereupon I discovered that all Thai
>> restaurants (here, at least) supply you with knife, fork
>> and spoon. Since then, I have decided to use whichever
>> utensil seems to work best and frequently eat my spaghetti
>> with a spoon, rather than with the traditional
>> fork-spoon-twirling method.
>
> Perhaps, your favorite Thai restaurants supply you with a knife
> but, in Thailand and the better Thai restaurants around here, a
> knife is not usual.
That must be to limit the range of weapons at hand, I guess. There was a
time in the earlier days of my current marriage (to a Filipina) when there
were no knives on the table -- just forks and some slightly disformed
spoons.
--
Skitt (AmE)
more trusting and trustworthy these days
Ian Noble
wrote:
>I don't think of cupboard contents as _dishes_, as in "You'll find the
>dishes in the cupboard". That, and variations on it, isn't in my
>vernacular, for I'd be thinking "What, dirty dishes in the cupboard?".
>I've generally had cups, mugs, glasses, bowls and plates in my
>cupboards, but never _dishes_, as such. I have "washed the dishes"
>many times, but when retrieving them or using them, they become
>specific articles. I'd find nothing remarkable about "put away the
>dishes", though.
I'd never thought of that, but you're right. "The dishes" are the
things I wash up and put away, irrespective of what they are. The
breakable stuff in the cupboards is "the crockery".
Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.)
Skitt
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> I don't think of cupboard contents as _dishes_, as in "You'll find
>> the dishes in the cupboard". That, and variations on it, isn't in my
>> vernacular, for I'd be thinking "What, dirty dishes in the
>> cupboard?". I've generally had cups, mugs, glasses, bowls and plates
>> in my cupboards, but never _dishes_, as such. I have "washed the
>> dishes" many times, but when retrieving them or using them, they
>> become specific articles. I'd find nothing remarkable about "put
>> away the dishes", though.
>
> I'd never thought of that, but you're right. "The dishes" are the
> things I wash up and put away, irrespective of what they are. The
> breakable stuff in the cupboards is "the crockery".
You have a bunch of stuff made of clay, huh? How quaint.
--
Skitt
Still posting after all these years ...
Oleg Lego
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:29:24 -0700, Skitt posted:
Ummm... most dishes are made of clay.
Skitt
OK, but "crockery" (earthenware) is pretty much reseved for clayware, not
dishes, innit? I could be wrong, of course.
--
Skitt (AmE)
with feet of clay?
irwell
Robert Bannister
> I have never lost interest in any type of Asian food and I maintain my
> dexterity with chopsticks. I do use a fork with Indian food, not the
> fingers of my *right* hand as was traditional.
The only place I had to do that was in some outback hamlet in Iran. The
problem was, the rice was the fluffiest I've ever had, so having got it
into some kind of ball shape, I'd get it about halfway to my mouth
before it all fell apart. Once the bread was gone, there was a lot of
furtive fumbling with the forbidden left.
I would disagree with you
> about spaghetti, I don't use a spoon and fork; only a fork. If I had to
> use only a spoon, I think I would have to cut up the pasta.
Sorry, I should have said "only at home", where anything goes.
--
Rob Bannister
Oleg Lego
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:23:08 -0700, Skitt posted:
Hmm... crockery, in my dialect, usually means "everyday dishes",
unless used in a jocular form. Calling bone china "crockery" is
definitely jocular. A "crock", on the other hand, is usually a round
earthenware vessel with straight sides.
As for the term "clayware", I have never seen or used the term.
Everything from the most primitive pots to the finest porcelain, is
made from "clay"; different types to be sure, ut clay nonetheless.
Earthenware has a particular meaning, as do stoneware, bone china,
porcelain, etc., but those terms only serve to differentiate between
types of clay, primarily in the temperature at which they are fired.
Hatunen
wrote:
China (porcelain) is clayware.
I have alwys been a bit amused that Arabia of Finland, maker of
fine dinnerware, is also Finland's largest maker of toilets.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
Splayds, however, work quite well.
http://www.splayds.com/
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Nick
Crockery is pretty normal in my use for table pottery.
When washing up you do the glasses, then the cutlery, then the crockery
and finally the pots and pans.
Nell
Now, those are nice. Each part, tine, bowl, and blade, look very
functional and attractive as well.
It's about time somebody came up with something like that.
Nell
By the way, I enjoyed seeing one of the things that "Party Forks are
ideal for - . . .'The American Style of Eating' . . . ." lol
Oleg Lego
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:15:28 -0400, Nell posted:
Looks like a sort of squared-off fpoon to me.
irwell
Fairly common in the British potteries for makers
of china dinnerware to make bathroom bowls, toilets
etc.
I seem to recall seeing Royal Dalton urinals somewhere.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
That's my impression also, but I can't quote chapter and verse.
>
> I seem to recall seeing Royal Dalton urinals somewhere.
Google for Royal Doulton urinal and you'll find this:
http://jamessbloggerblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/what-toilet-trip.html
The videos are of very low quality, and I couldn't actually read Royal
Doulton on any of the ones I looked at, but that's what the author says
they are.
--
athel
John Varela
(in article <k4e514pe0090n51gp...@4ax.com>):
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400, "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Mardon wrote:
>>
>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a local
>>> restaurant's name was here] has linen tablecloths." Would you expect
>>> this to mean the tablecloths are made of real linen? I know for a
>>> fact that they are not. They are some kind of cotton and polyester
>>> blend. Is it correct to use the word "linen" in this way, as a
>>> synonym for any kind of fabric?
>>
>> Disagreeing with others who replied: If someone says "linen
>> tablecloths," I would expect the tablecloths to be linen. If that
>> someone just means that the table covering is not paper or plastic, then
>> "cloth" tablecloth would be the better term.
>>
> Then you object to "bed linen", "table linen", "linen closet", etc?
> And this company's ad: http://www.tablecloth.com/ ?
I agree with Maria. "Bed linen" is probably made of cotton, but a "linen
sheet" is made of linen. "Table linen" may be nylon, but a "linen
tablecloth" is made of linen. (On the other hand, a "linen closet" is not
made of linen, although a "cedar closet" is made of cedar.)
--
John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.
irwell
Had a look at the video, or rather the stills. He does show a close-up
of the logo, 'Royal Doulton, Vitreous china'.
I once wanted a quote for some Vitreous enamel signs,
they were very expensive at that time, some forty years ago.
James Silverton
??>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:51:49 -0400, "Maria C."
??>> <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
??>>
??>>> Mardon wrote:
??>>>
??>>>> Someone in one of my local news groups posted, "The [a
??>>>> local restaurant's name was here] has linen
JV> I agree with Maria. "Bed linen" is probably made of
JV> cotton, but a "linen sheet" is made of linen. "Table
JV> linen" may be nylon, but a "linen tablecloth" is made of
JV> linen. (On the other hand, a "linen closet" is not made of
JV> linen, although a "cedar closet" is made of cedar.)
And a linen closet is not restricted to containing actual linen
(from flax).
Skitt
M-W Online equates "crockery" with "earthenware", and that's what I based my
original comment on. It's just that I would never call our dishes
"crockery".
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robert Bannister
> M-W Online equates "crockery" with "earthenware", and that's what I
> based my original comment on. It's just that I would never call our
> dishes "crockery".
>
I still think M-W is the best English dictionary available online, but
it is very iffy at times, especially when it comes to non-American usage.
--
Rob Bannister
Maria C.
>
> It contrasts to the rest of the silver on the table which is called
> "holloware".
I agree with what Tony's been saying about flatware, silverware, etc.,
but I paused at "holloware" because of the spelling. I thought,
"hollowware." Lo and behold, the word can be spelled both ways. WCIRHR.
--
Maria C.
Maria C.
> Nell posted:
>> It happens that Richard Bollard formulated :
>>>> Ever try a "spork"? You can't eat a blasted thing with them.
>>>>
>>> Splayds, however, work quite well.
>>>
>>> http://www.splayds.com/
>>
>> Now, those are nice. Each part, tine, bowl, and blade, look very
>> functional and attractive as well.
>> It's about time somebody came up with something like that.
>
> Looks like a sort of squared-off fpoon to me.
1. There seem to be no profiles of the utensil, allowing one to see just
how deep the bowl is.
2. Anyway, I'd like to get some splayds ("splayds" = spoon/ladle? If so,
what indicates the fork part? Can someone think of a better term?)
3. Also, note the reflection in the largest picture on the URLed page.
It looks like someone who has a long white beard standing up in a canoe
to me. (Or do I mean a supposedly naked woman, like the one in the
picture of VP Cheney that stirred up so much interest a couple of weeks
ago?)
4. Going back a bit in the thread: I wish to go on record as thinking
that "cutlery" refers to knives, though I have heard it used as
reference to eating utensils (another term meaning "silverware" or
"flatware" and which I sometimes use).
5. It seems to me that the different English usages in these matters is
quite interesting and not yet on the verge of melding together. ("Meld"
being used as a combination of "melt" and "weld." [M-W Online])
6. I think I'll put some of my silver table items on eBay. My kids don't
want them, I have no use for them, they're nice -- but hell to polish--
and the not-really-silver stuff I use is pretty enough.
Back from a three-day trip to Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and hoping
that some of the photos I took are both usable and good,
Maria C.
tony cooper
wrote:
>tony cooper wrote:
I follow the style of the established experts in American holloware.
In this case, Dorothy Rainwater is the guru's guru, and her book is
titled _American Silverplate and Sterling Silver Holloware_.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida