Can a brunette have black hair?
Bertel Lund Hansen
In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
so.
What is right?
--
Bertel
http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/ FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/
Harvey Van Sickle
> Hi all
>
> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> so.
>
> What is right?
Idiomatically I think there's usually a distinction made between
"brunette" and "black-haired".
But as for "brun" meaning "dark": the person you've quoted seems to be
ignoring the "-ette" suffix. "Brunette" is a dimunitive form of
"brun", and the "dark" meaning in the word is modified by the suffix.
"Brunette" thus means having "dark brown hair".
Brunettes have dark brown hair. Dark (brun-), but not entirely so (-
ette).
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
Skitt
> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> so.
>
> What is right?
The dictionary is your friend.
From MWCD10 at www.m-w.com:
Main Entry: 1bru·net
Variant(s): or bru·nette /brü-'net/
Function: noun
Date: circa 1539
: a person having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
complexion
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Adrian Bailey
news:bmuvp8$qkq8h$1...@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> > In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> > brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> > means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> > brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> > so.
> >
> > What is right?
>
> The dictionary is your friend.
>
> From MWCD10 at www.m-w.com:
> Main Entry: 1bru·net
> Variant(s): or bru·nette /brü-'net/
> Function: noun
> Date: circa 1539
> : a person having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
> complexion
The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can mean
"having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few people use the
word with that meaning, or how many/few people think the word has that
meaning when they hear it. I for one would never use "brunette" about a
black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman had black hair if she was
described as "brunette". It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
Adrian
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
>>> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
>>> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
>>> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
>>> so.
>>>
>>> What is right?
>>
>> The dictionary is your friend.
>>
>> From MWCD10 at www.m-w.com:
>> Main Entry: 1bru·net
>> Variant(s): or bru·nette /brü-'net/
>> Function: noun
>> Date: circa 1539
>>> a person having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
>>> complexion
>
> The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can
> mean "having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few
> people use the word with that meaning, or how many/few people think
> the word has that meaning when they hear it. I for one would never
> use "brunette" about a black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman
> had black hair if she was described as "brunette".
Well, that's you. Unfortunately, you don't have quite the references as the
dictionaries do.
> It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
Do it. I'd be interested in the results, not that they would change what's
in the dictionaries. I'm sure that there are many people that would allow
black-haired people to be included among the brunets.
Robert Lieblich
Here's a straw: I start from the phrase "blonde, brunette, or
redhead." A brunette is any woman who isn't a blonde or a
redhead.[1] I don't use brunette in relation to groups of people
whose hair is invariably black, such as Africans or Chinese people.
[1] There are some shades that don't fit any of those three, but
they're all lighter than brunette, which to me extends all the way
to jet black.
--
Bob Lieblich
Whose hair is white (which category is that?)
mUs1Ka
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YuEkb.277$wd3.2...@news-text.cableinet.net...
... It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
>
More blonde, I would think.
m.
Richard Maurer
The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can mean
"having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few people use the
word with that meaning, or how many/few people think the word has that
meaning when they hear it. I for one would never use "brunette" about a
black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman had black hair if she was
described as "brunette". It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
The choice has for a long time been one of
< blonde brunette redhead >
so for me, black hair goes in the brunette category.
Each can have a gamut of distinctions, such as flaxen,
jet-black, or ginger.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MC
Robert Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
> Here's a straw: I start from the phrase "blonde, brunette, or
> redhead." A brunette is any woman who isn't a blonde or a
> redhead.[1] I don't use brunette in relation to groups of people
> whose hair is invariably black, such as Africans or Chinese people.
>
Invariably?
Not so sure about that. Maybe in Africa, but red -- or at least
reddish/blondish hair is far from uncommon amongst Afro-Americans. And
blonde hair crops up too...
And, some Japanese people have reddish hair too, that as far as I know
doesn't come from a bottle.
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Robert Lieblich wrote:
> Here's a straw: I start from the phrase "blonde, brunette, or
> redhead." A brunette is any woman who isn't a blonde or a
> redhead.[1] I don't use brunette in relation to groups of people
> whose hair is invariably black, such as Africans or Chinese people.
How 'bout albinos? (Albini?)
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Adrian Bailey wrote:
> The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can mean
> "having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few people use the
> word with that meaning, or how many/few people think the word has that
> meaning when they hear it. I for one would never use "brunette" about a
> black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman had black hair if she was
> described as "brunette". It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
Brunette includes the black-haired.
Pat Durkin
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YuEkb.277$wd3.2...@news-text.cableinet.net...
I would include black-haired in the brunette category. I find that most
"black-haired" people do not have true black (with blue highlights), but
have a very uniformly dark brown hair.
--
Pat
durk...@msn.com
Durkin
Robert Bannister
OK - here's my vote: I do use "brunette" for people (I think always
women) who have black or dark hair. I disagree with MWCD10's bit about
complexion, since my brunettes are allowed to have fair skin too.
--
Rob Bannister
John Dean
Many dictionaries are our friends, but they are not each other's. OED says
<< A. n. a. A girl or woman of a dark complexion or with brown hair.
b. A variety of the satinette pigeon.
B. adj. Of dark complexion, brown-haired; nut-brown. Also absol. the
colour. >>
So, no black hair there. And they trace it back to French 'brunette' from
French 'brun' = brown. Anyone ever met a satinette pigeon?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Adrian Bailey
news:Xns9419E4CD...@194.168.222.40...
> But as for "brun" meaning "dark": the person you've quoted seems to be
> ignoring the "-ette" suffix. "Brunette" is a dimunitive form of
> "brun", and the "dark" meaning in the word is modified by the suffix.
> "Brunette" thus means having "dark brown hair".
The "dark" meaning in the word is *not* modified by the suffix. In the
original French a "brune" is a woman with brown or dark hair and a
"brunette" is a girl with brown or dark hair.
Adrian
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Not for me: blond(e) - red - brunette - black.
In German, _brünett_ means (dark) brown-haired ONLY.
To call a raven-haired, bluish-black-haired Irish woman (like my
former neighbor's six "black Irish" daughters) "brunette" is totally
wrong, in my world view.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Skitt
> Adrian Bailey wrote:
>> "Skitt" wrote
>>>> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
>>>> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
>>>> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
>>>> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
>>>> so.
>>>>
>>>> What is right?
>>>
>>> The dictionary is your friend.
>>>
>>> From MWCD10 at www.m-w.com: Main Entry: 1bru·net Variant(s): or
>>> bru·nette /brü-'net/ Function: noun Date: circa 1539 : a person
>>> having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
>>> complexion
>>
>> The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can
>> mean "having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few
>> people use the word with that meaning, or how many/few people think
>> the word has that meaning when they hear it. I for one would never
>> use "brunette" about a black-haired woman, nor would I think a
>> woman had black hair if she was described as "brunette". It'd be
>> interesting to do a straw poll on this.
>
> OK - here's my vote: I do use "brunette" for people (I think always
> women) who have black or dark hair. I disagree with MWCD10's bit about
> complexion, since my brunettes are allowed to have fair skin too.
Did you overlook the "usually" in MWCD10's definition?
Jonathan Miller
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> > brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> > means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> > brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> > so.
> >
> > What is right?
>
> Idiomatically I think there's usually a distinction made between
> "brunette" and "black-haired".
>
> But as for "brun" meaning "dark": the person you've quoted seems to be
> ignoring the "-ette" suffix. "Brunette" is a dimunitive form of
> "brun", and the "dark" meaning in the word is modified by the suffix.
> "Brunette" thus means having "dark brown hair".
>
> Brunettes have dark brown hair. Dark (brun-), but not entirely so (-
> ette).
>
Jon Miller
Joanne Marinelli
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YuEkb.277$wd3.2...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> "having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few people use the
> word with that meaning, or how many/few people think the word has that
> meaning when they hear it. I for one would never use "brunette" about a
> black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman had black hair if she was
> described as "brunette". It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on this.
>
> Adrian
I am with Adrian on this. Jane Russell and Sophia Loren are not brunettes.
They are raven-haired movie stars. I have dark brown hair. Hence, brunette.
Joanne
Jonathan Miller
news:copeSP-6F2F88....@mail.inter.net...
Beakman (of Beakman and Jax) said a few weeks (months) ago that red hair is
caused by retention of iron in the hair, and occurs in all ethnic groups in
roughly equal proportions. I do not know what Beakman's educational
background or areas of research are. It doesn't fit with my memory, but I
have not and am not about to count hair color of people I see. Especially
considering that red is certainly harder to detect on a black background
than a blond one.
I just know what I read in the paper, and all I read is the comics.
Jon Miller
Jonathan Miller
news:bmv8lj$a6j$1...@e250.ripco.com...
> was black.
My sister has dark brown hair that lightens in the sun (shading towards
auburn, but not quite making it). When she lived in Mexico City, her
nickname was "Goldilocks".
Jon Miller
J. W. Love
>R F wrote: . . .
>> Brunette includes the black-haired.
>
>Not for me: blond(e) - red - brunette - black.
>
>In German, _brünett_ means (dark) brown-haired ONLY.
>
>To call a raven-haired, bluish-black-haired Irish woman (like
>my former neighbor's six "black Irish" daughters) "brunette"
>is totally wrong, in my world view.
In my worldview (though I have the disadvantage of not having sampled the sight
of those six voluptuous tempters), Rey is totally right.
Newsgroup ConTROLLer
> Hi all
>
> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> so.
>
> What is right?
You know what they say, turn most blondes or redheads upside down and
they become brunettes.
Jim
John Varela
> Brunette includes the black-haired.
I agree.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.
John DeFiore
"John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:bmv9s1$f5g$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> So, no black hair there. And they trace it back to French 'brunette' from
> French 'brun' = brown. Anyone ever met a satinette pigeon?
> --
Regards,
John
Denny Wheeler
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>Bob Lieblich
>Whose hair is white (which category is that?)
Albino or senior and unashamed.
--
-denny-
Some people are offence kleptomaniacs -- whenever they see
an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-)
--David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans
khann
I concur wholeheartedly.
KHann
Robert Lieblich
Betcha Rey would call them "temptresses."
--
Bob Lieblich
I might do so myself
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>OK - here's my vote: I do use "brunette" for people (I think always
>>women) who have black or dark hair. I disagree with MWCD10's bit about
>>complexion, since my brunettes are allowed to have fair skin too.
>
>
> Did you overlook the "usually" in MWCD10's definition?
No, because the black-haired people I have known mainly had pale
complexions. Depends where you have lived, I suppose. Obviously, here in
Australia, very few people have pale complexions.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
> khann wrote in message
>> I concur wholeheartedly.
>>
>> KHann
>
> OMG! She's back!!
You still haven't grasped the difference between KHann and Kahn.
R H Draney
>
>"J. W. Love" wrote:
>>
>>In my worldview (though I have the disadvantage of not having sampled the sight
>> of those six voluptuous tempters), Rey is totally right.
>
>Betcha Rey would call them "temptresses."
>
>--
>Bob Lieblich
>I might do so myself
Subject to some whimsical spelling adjustment: one temptrix, two or more
temptrices....r
Javi
> Hi all
>
> In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> so.
>
> What is right?
Nowadays, any woman can have the hair's color she choose.
As for your question, I guess that different cultures have different
concepts. I guess that most cultures do not have single words *only* for
person with a certair hair color, but for person with a certain overall
apparience, this is, skin and hair color. I'm not sure whether this is the
case in English cultures, but if we can make clear that "brunette" is only
used for hair color or for skin and hair color, the discussion might
advance. I, non-native English speaker, have been using "brunette" and
"blonde" as a descriptor for a mix of hair and skin color, and my Oxford
dictionaries seem to agrre with my use:
"Brunette": European (i.e. Caucasian) with dark skin and brown or black
hair.
"Blonde": woman having fair complexion and golden hair.
So, it seems to be not a matter of *only* hair color, and a woman with black
hair and fair complexion is nor a brunette nor a blonde, and a woman with
dark skin and golden hair is not a blonde, though she has blond hair; I
think I'd call the latter "a blond brunette".
I hope this can help.
--
Saludos cordiales
Javi
Mood conjugation:
I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic
(Craig Brown)
Steffen Buehler
> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió :
>
> > In the Danish newsgroup, about language one person claims that a
> > brunette may have black hair, based on the fact that "brun" also
> > means "dark". Another claims that a brunette has some sort of
> > brown hair, and that a person with black hair cannot be called
> > so.
> >
> > What is right?
>
>
> Nowadays, any woman can have the hair's color she choose.
Does anyone still remember?
Said the fair-haired Rebecca of Klondike,
"Of you I'm exceedingly fond, Ike.
To prove I adore you
I'll dye, darling, for you,
And be a brunette, not a blonde, Ike."
Best regards
Steffen
Edward
I'm with this feller. My wife has similar colouring (very dark hair,
pale complexion) and brunette she ain't.
Edward
--
The reading group's reading group:
http://www.bookgroup.org.uk
khann
>
> DE781 wrote:
> > khann wrote in message
>
> >> I concur wholeheartedly.
> >>
> >> KHann
> >
> > OMG! She's back!!
>
> You still haven't grasped the difference between KHann and Kahn.
Perhaps "DE781" is dyslexic rather than simple. Nonetheless (horror of
horrors) Mimi Kahn _is_ back, though in another thread -- one in which I
cannot bring myself to post as whatever is said there will only
contribute to what she seeks to achieve. It is so nice to see that Mimi
hasn't lost her sure touch for generating strife within AUE. It is not
so nice to see that so many posters have leapt joyously into her trap,
like Disney lemmings swarming over the nearest cliff. She must be
gratified with the response.
KHann
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Robert Lieblich filted:
> >"J. W. Love" wrote:
Actually, I called all six of them "Kathleen" because I couldn't tell
them apart. They were all stunningly beautiful jailbaits about whom
I'm still fantasizing after all these years. Yum!
Kathleen go bragh! (brách, bráth)
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Anna Skipka
I'm told they make excellent stools.
-skipka
MC
annas...@yahoo.com (Anna Skipka) wrote:
> > > Anyone ever met a satinette pigeon?
> >
> > Yep. They taste just like chicken.
>
> I'm told they make excellent stools.
I'll let you know tomorrow morning after I've had a cup of coffee and a
bran muffin.
Robert Lieblich
No shit?
Dena Jo
> Bob Lieblich
> Whose hair is white (which category is that?)
Many years ago a friend of mine was bemoaning the fact that his hair
was going grey.
I told him, in all sincerity, that I'd never thought of him as having
grey hair.
"What color hair do you think I have?" he asked.
I replied, "I've always thought of it as kind of light black."
So now that's what he tells people, that he light black hair.
--
Dena Jo
Strawberry blonde
(Email: Replace TPUBGTH with denajo2)
Anna Skipka
On the contrary.
-skipka
MC
Dena Jo <TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Many years ago a friend of mine was bemoaning the fact that his hair
> was going grey.
>
> I told him, in all sincerity, that I'd never thought of him as having
> grey hair.
>
> "What color hair do you think I have?" he asked.
>
> I replied, "I've always thought of it as kind of light black."
>
> So now that's what he tells people, that he light black hair.
B-b-b-b-but DJ -- how come you're spelling it "grey" and not "gray"?
You're a US-ian! I don't want you scoping any trial in which I'm the
defendant. (Or the decedent).
J. W. Love
>Betcha Rey would call them "temptresses."
And no doubt aptly. I had in mind the scene in _The Breasts of Tiresias_ where
the heroine, before snipping the strings that hold her balloons,* sings (in the
authorized translation):
Such charming attractions can lead to disaster
They tempt a man.
Men tempt a miss
Who knows what end comes of this?
And so farewell to vice
With its doubly dangerous tempters.
*Surely, this being aue and all, these need no explanation.
Mark Browne
<Robert....@Verizon.net> writes
>Anna Skipka wrote:
>>
>> I'm told they make excellent stools.
>
>No shit?
It is good to know that other people do this too. I have particular
problems with the phrase "between two stools".
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
Dena Jo
> B-b-b-b-but DJ -- how come you're spelling it "grey" and not "gray"?
Since you asked, you too with your light black hair, I'll tell you. I
don't know why I do that, but I've spelled it that way most of my life.
Gray, to me, looks like a man's name instead of a color.
--
Casey's dance partner
Mike Oliver
> Gray, to me, looks like a man's name instead of a color.
Speaking of which, how much longer has he got? I was
hearing Novemberish, kind of vague.
Dena Jo
I was told that Ahnold takes office within ten days of the election's
(?) being certified. I don't know if it's been certified yet.
--
Dena Jo
John Holmes
> Adrian Bailey wrote:
>> "Skitt" wrote:
>>>
>>> The dictionary is your friend.
>>>
>>> From MWCD10 at www.m-w.com:
>>> Main Entry: 1bru·net
>>> Variant(s): or bru·nette /brü-'net/
>>> Function: noun
>>> Date: circa 1539
>>>> a person having brown or black hair and usually a relatively dark
>>>> complexion
>>
>> The dictionary is *not* our friend. It suggests that "brunette" can
>> mean "having black hair" but it says nothing about how many/few
>> people use the word with that meaning, or how many/few people think
>> the word has that meaning when they hear it. I for one would never
>> use "brunette" about a black-haired woman, nor would I think a woman
>> had black hair if she was described as "brunette".
>
> as the dictionaries do.
Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
Oxford says:
_brunette_
n., a woman with dark brown hair
adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
[ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
--
Regards
John
R F
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, John Holmes wrote:
> Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
> Oxford says:
>
> _brunette_
> n., a woman with dark brown hair
> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>
> I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
Query whether "black" hair is not actually dark brown.
Since the French presumably gave us "blonde" and "brunette", what do the
French call a woman with black hair (= FrE "how do ze Frawnsh call ze
woman avec ze black hair okay")?
Ross Howard
wrought:
Also, anyone answering the question "So, is your girlfriend a blonde
or a brunette?" with "Neither; her hair's black" needs to get out
more. Surely the only acceptable response with "neither" is "she's a
redhead".
--
Ross Howard
John Holmes
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, John Holmes wrote:
>
>> Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The
>> Australian Oxford says:
>>
>> _brunette_
>> n., a woman with dark brown hair
>> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
>> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>>
>> I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
>
> Query whether "black" hair is not actually dark brown.
That's beside the point. If the hair was dark enough that I'd call it
black, then I wouldn't also describe it as brunette.
Different people might have different ideas about exactly where the
cutoff lies between very dark brown and black, but that's no different
from deciding how light hair has to be before you'd call it blonde.
--
Regards
John
Peter Moylan
>Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
>Oxford says:
>
> _brunette_
> n., a woman with dark brown hair
> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>
>I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
"Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
colour that is found among some East Asians.
My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
match up precisely in the two languages.
--
Peter Moylan Peter....@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
R F
On Wed, 30 Oct 2003, Peter Moylan wrote:
> John Holmes <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
> >Oxford says:
> >
> > _brunette_
> > n., a woman with dark brown hair
> > adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
> > [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
> >
> >I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
>
> Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
> "Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
> black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
> hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
> colour that is found among some East Asians.
That sounds like the usage in my idiolect and, possibly, meta-dialect.
I've heard people claim that I have (actually had, prior to
becoming a member of the grey-haired community) "black" hair, but to me
it's always been very dark brown. Without exception, I believe, those
persons who have said that I have "black" hair hail from a different
dialectal region than that from which I hail. Koinkidenk?
> My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
> would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
> match up precisely in the two languages.
My maternal grandmother used to be called "Blondie" back in the day in
County Morris (hey, isn't Young Joey from 'round there?) but her hair was
medium brown. I used to say that my younger brother had "blond" hair when
he was a child (it was a slightly lighter shade of brown than his other
siblings').
The so-called "black Irish", they have black hair; black hair is
jet-black. BTW, Coop's what they call "clear Irish" (ATNCAUFE).
Robert Bannister
> John Holmes <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
>>Oxford says:
>>
>> _brunette_
>> n., a woman with dark brown hair
>> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
>> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>>
>>I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
>
>
> Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
> "Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
> black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
> hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
> colour that is found among some East Asians.
>
> My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
> would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
> match up precisely in the two languages.
>
Like 'jaune'. As far as I can make out, un chien jaune seems to be a
light-haired dog, but un chat jaune seems to ginger. Please tell me I'm
wrong.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> John Holmes <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The Australian
>>Oxford says:
>>
>> _brunette_
>> n., a woman with dark brown hair
>> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
>> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>>
>>I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
>
>
> Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
> "Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
> black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
> hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
> colour that is found among some East Asians.
>
> My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
> would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
> match up precisely in the two languages.
>
Also, with eyes, 'brun' is never used - always marron (sometimes with an
's').
--
Rob Bannister
Mark Browne
<rob...@it.net.au> writes
>Also, with eyes, 'brun' is never used - always marron (sometimes with
>an 's').
I have heard brown eyes described as "chestnut", so that seems to be OK.
I wonder why not "brun"?
Javi
Do English speakers use "yellow" for any dog? In Spanish we have a saying
"es más raro que un perro amarillo" (it/he is rarer/stranger than a yellow
dog).
--
Saludos cordiales
Javi
Mood conjugation:
I've been to hell and back
You've taken a wrong turn
He is a loser
(Craig Brown)
John Holmes
> John Holmes <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Not all dictionaries use the same references, evidently. The
>> Australian Oxford says:
>>
>> _brunette_
>> n., a woman with dark brown hair
>> adj., (of a woman) having dark brown hair
>> [ORIGIN: French fem. of brunet, diminutive of brun, BROWN]
>>
>> I've never heard of black hair being called brunette.
>
> Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
> "Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
> black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
> hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
> colour that is found among some East Asians.
>
> My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
> would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
> match up precisely in the two languages.
Sure, but even in French 'cheveux noirs' wouldn't be a subgroup of
'brunette', would they?
It seems to me that 'black' and 'brunette' are disjoint sets in any one
person's terminology, even though what one person might class as black
might be brunette to someone else.
--
Regards
John
Brian Wickham
wrote:
>Do English speakers use "yellow" for any dog? In Spanish we have a saying
>"es más raro que un perro amarillo" (it/he is rarer/stranger than a yellow
>dog).
Yes. We have a Yellow Lab (Labrador Retriever).
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, in alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@it.net.au> writes
>
>> Also, with eyes, 'brun' is never used - always marron (sometimes with
>> an 's').
>
>
> I have heard brown eyes described as "chestnut", so that seems to be OK.
> I wonder why not "brun"?
It was explained to me that 'brun' was a light brown, which eyes never
are, and so 'marron' or 'chātain' were used. This, however, directly
contradicts what Peter was saying about hair.
--
Rob Bannister
Aaron J. Dinkin
> It was explained to me that 'brun' was a light brown, which eyes never
> are,
<snip>
Aren't what we call hazel eyes a light brown?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
MEow
University of Newcastle said:
>Warning: French "brun" is not the same colour as English brown.
>"Elle a les cheveux bruns" describes someone who would be called
>black-haired in English. The description "cheveux noirs" (black
>hair) is used in French to describe only that deep bluish-black
>colour that is found among some East Asians.
>
>My wife's hair is a moderately dark brown. Nevertheless, she
>would be called "blonde" in French. The colour words don't
>match up precisely in the two languages.
Maybe it also has to do with how blonde or dark haired the regular
population is?
I once took a lock of my hair to a colour-scale in the supermarket
and, much to my surprise, it's technically speaking blonde (a
hairdresser I went to once also said my hair is technically speaking
blonde). Not even dark blonde or anything, but plain blonde. However,
no one would ever dream of calling me blonde, due to me having very
dark brown eyes and eyebrows. Here "blonde" seems to be associated
with light blonde hair and blue eyes, so I count as brunette.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Naked women? I thought they only existed on the internet" Vinny (afdaniain)
John Holmes
>
> Do English speakers use "yellow" for any dog? In Spanish we have a
> saying "es más raro que un perro amarillo" (it/he is rarer/stranger
> than a yellow dog).
Not commonly, but it isn't unknown.
The word 'yellow' in English is often associated with cowardice, so
'yellow dog' sounds a bit derogatory. Dog breeds are more likely to be
called 'golden' instead (golden labrador, golden retriever).
W. C. Handy wrote a tune called Yellow Dog Blues. Does anyone know if it
had words, and if so what it was about?
--
Regards
John
Donna Richoux
The spelling "yaller dog" leaps to mind, but I don't know from which
19th-century context. I think it was just a color of dog.
...No, it seems to be a kind, not just a color. An early Google hit
says:
Did Carolina Dogs Arrive With Ancient Americans? The
old 'yaller' dog of the south is not a mutt after
all; in fact the yaller dog may be one of the oldest
breeds in the Americas... [National Geographic]
(beautiful photo of the yaller dog accompanies the
feature)
but there is no link to the mentioned picture. Switching to "carolina
dog" leads to pictures and text
"The Dixie Dingo"
"The Native American Dog"
"The American Dingo" " Southern Aboriginal Dog"
"The Indian's Dog"
Still living Wild in the bottom land swamps and
forests of the Southeastern United States.
Genetic (mitochondrial DNA) testing being performed
at the University of South Carolina, College of
Science and Mathematics, indicates that these dogs,
related to the earliest domesticated dogs, are the
remnant descendants of the feral pariah canids who
came across the Bering land mass 8,000 to 11,000
years ago as hunting companions to the ancestors of
the Native Americans. [snip]
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Robert Bannister
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 07:00:26 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>>It was explained to me that 'brun' was a light brown, which eyes never
>>are,
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Aren't what we call hazel eyes a light brown?
I suspect that's one of those words I should have looked up in a
dictionary 50 years ago. I always thought 'hazel' referred to a mixture
of green and brown. 'Hazel' in French is usually rendered as 'noisette',
which would also be brown.
--
Rob Bannister
Brian Wickham
wrote:
Yes, the words are on the web at http://ingeb.org/blues/yellowdo.html
But you need an explanation of "Yellow Dog" to make sense of Handy's
song. That's at http://www.earlyblues.com/Yellow%20Dog.htm
Until I read the above web sites I had only heard of a "Yellow Dog
Contract" where the employer makes an employee pledge never to join a
union. It turns out to be connected to the song.
I found a political term, "Yellow Dog District", that I had never seen
before. It seems to be in use among US right wing radicals and I
don't fully understand what it means.
Brian Wickham
Aaron J. Dinkin
> I found a political term, "Yellow Dog District", that I had never seen
> before. It seems to be in use among US right wing radicals and I
> don't fully understand what it means.
It's a caricature of party loyalty: a "yellow-dog Democrat" is someone who
supports the Democratic Party so solidly that they would sooner vote for a
yellow dog than for a Republican.
Richard Maurer
I suspect that's one of those words I should have looked up in a
dictionary 50 years ago. I always thought 'hazel' referred to a mixture
of green and brown. 'Hazel' in French is usually rendered as 'noisette',
which would also be brown.
I also grew up knowing "hazel" as an eye color to mean a mixture
of separate spots of green and brown. Maybe that averages out
to a single hazel color at a distance. My dictionaries only give
the single color version.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Bannister
> << [Rob Bannister]
> I suspect that's one of those words I should have looked up in a
> dictionary 50 years ago. I always thought 'hazel' referred to a mixture
> of green and brown. 'Hazel' in French is usually rendered as 'noisette',
> which would also be brown.
> [end quote] >>
>
>
>
>
> I also grew up knowing "hazel" as an eye color to mean a mixture
> of separate spots of green and brown. Maybe that averages out
> to a single hazel color at a distance. My dictionaries only give
> the single color version.
When you think of 'hazel', do you see the tree's leaves, its bark or its
nuts? Come to think of it, 'chestnut' is a difficult one too, ranging
from the almost purple of horse chestnuts to the darker brown of a
cooked sweet chestnut.
--
Rob Bannister
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Richard Maurer wrote:
>
>> I also grew up knowing "hazel" as an eye color to mean a mixture
>> of separate spots of green and brown. Maybe that averages out
>> to a single hazel color at a distance. My dictionaries only give
>> the single color version.
>
> When you think of 'hazel', do you see the tree's leaves, its bark or its
> nuts?
I don't associate "hazel" as an (eye) color with the tree at all. In
fact, I'm not actually familiar with the tree, but if I were I'd probably
call it a "hazelnut tree". "Hazel" and "hazelnut" are nearly as
unconnected in my mind as "chest" and "chestnut".
> Come to think of it, 'chestnut' is a difficult one too, ranging
> from the almost purple of horse chestnuts to the darker brown of a
> cooked sweet chestnut.
I think of "chestnut", as a color word, as referring to a dark reddish
brown. Overlaps a bit with "auburn", which is slightly lighter, I think.
Jerry Friedman
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 07:00:26 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
>
> > It was explained to me that 'brun' was a light brown, which eyes never
> > are,
>
> <snip>
>
> Aren't what we call hazel eyes a light brown?
I have no idea.
Since "hazel" has gotten into this thread, I have a relevant citation
for "brunette". It's Robert Heinlein's only detective story, "They Do
It With Mirrors" (reprinted in _Expanded Universe_). Early in the
story the narrator sees two showgirls, who he refers to about a dozen
times as "the blonde" and "the brunette". Then he learns that the
blonde is named Estelle and the brunette is named Hazel. Still later,
he notes that no one could have mistaken "Hazel's blue-black mane" for
"Estelle's peroxided mop".
I think there's also one from Mark Twain. One of the twins in
_Pudd'nhead Wilson_ is described as "blond" and the other as "brunet".
I'm pretty sure. And I have a vague memory that at some point we
learn that the brunet's hair is black. But I could be wrong.
--
Jerry Friedman
John Holmes
> but there is no link to the mentioned picture. Switching to "carolina
> dog" leads to pictures and text
>
> http://www.carolinadogs.org/
>
> "The Dixie Dingo"
> "The Native American Dog"
> "The American Dingo" " Southern Aboriginal Dog"
> "The Indian's Dog"
> Still living Wild in the bottom land swamps and
> forests of the Southeastern United States.
>
> Genetic (mitochondrial DNA) testing being performed
> at the University of South Carolina, College of
> Science and Mathematics, indicates that these dogs,
> related to the earliest domesticated dogs, are the
> remnant descendants of the feral pariah canids who
> came across the Bering land mass 8,000 to 11,000
> years ago as hunting companions to the ancestors of
> the Native Americans. [snip]
Thanks, Donna. I had no idea that the Asiatic Wolf's cousins had spread
so far afield.
The latest studies that I've heard about seem to indicate that the
Australian dingo came here only about 5,000 years ago, whereas there've
been native Australians for over 40,000 years.
--
Regards
John
John Holmes
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:35:38 +1100, "John Holmes" <hol...@smart.net.au>
> wrote:
>
>> Javi wrote:
>>>
>>> Do English speakers use "yellow" for any dog? In Spanish we have a
>>> saying "es más raro que un perro amarillo" (it/he is rarer/stranger
>>> than a yellow dog).
>>
>> Not commonly, but it isn't unknown.
>>
>> The word 'yellow' in English is often associated with cowardice, so
>> 'yellow dog' sounds a bit derogatory. Dog breeds are more likely to
>> be called 'golden' instead (golden labrador, golden retriever).
>>
>> W. C. Handy wrote a tune called Yellow Dog Blues. Does anyone know
>> if it had words, and if so what it was about?
>
> Yes, the words are on the web at http://ingeb.org/blues/yellowdo.html
>
> But you need an explanation of "Yellow Dog" to make sense of Handy's
> song. That's at http://www.earlyblues.com/Yellow%20Dog.htm
Thanks, Brian. I checked the lyrics page but can't raise anything from
the second URL. Maybe earlyblues hasn't woke up yet this mornin'.
--
Regards
John
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The spelling "yaller dog" leaps to mind, but I don't know from which
> 19th-century context. I think it was just a color of dog.
"Yaller" or "yeller" (vide "Old Yeller") is found in the song "Sweet
Betsy from Pike" (ca. 1850):
Oh, don't you remember sweet Betsy from Pike
Who crossed the wide prairie with her husband Ike
With two yoke of cattle and one spotted hog,
A tall Shanghai rooster, and an old yeller dog?
Many variants exist. That's the one I learned. I don't know the
original. PBS.org has a set that begins
Oh, do you remember Sweet Betsy from Pike,
Who went 'cross the plains with her lover Ike,
With one yoke of oxen, one spotted hog,
A tall Shanghai rooster, and a big yellow dog?
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/frontierhouse/resources/pdf/SWEETBETSY.pdf
and points to another that begins
Oh, do you remember Sweet Betsey from Pike
Who crossed the wide prairie with her lover Ike?
With two yoke of oxen, a big yellow dog,
A tall Shanghai rooster, and one spotted hog.
http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/betsey.html
so perhaps it was actually "yellow" in early lyrics. The lyrics to
the two are pretty similar, and I recognize several of the verses,
although I'm pretty sure I learned it as "husband", not "lover", which
means that the version I learned must not have had the verse about
them getting married at the end. One I had never seen before is in
the PBS set:
They stopped at Salt Lake to inquire the way,
And Brigham he swore that Sweet Betsy should stay.
But Betsy got scared and she ran like a deer,
While Brigham stood pawing the ground like a steer.
I can see why that one isn't common these days.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Feeling good about government is like
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |looking on the bright side of any
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |catastrophe. When you quit looking
|on the bright side, the catastrophe
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |is still there.
(650)857-7572 | P.J. O'Rourke
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I think there's also one from Mark Twain. One of the twins in
> _Pudd'nhead Wilson_ is described as "blond" and the other as "brunet".
If the copy at the University of Virginia site is to be believed, he
does it both ways:
As the talk wandered along, the old lady watched for the right
place to drop in a question or two concerning that matter, and
when she found it, she said to the blond twin, who was now doing
the biographies in his turn while the brunette one rested: [p. 78]
"I don't know about that," and Tom's countenance darkened, for his
memory reverted to his kicking. "I owe them no good will,
considering the brunet one's treatment of me that night. [p. 273]
http://tinyurl.com/tmvm
<URL:http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086/perl/toccer-new?
id=Twa2Pud.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/
parsed&tag=public&part=all>
> I'm pretty sure. And I have a vague memory that at some point we
> learn that the brunet's hair is black. But I could be wrong.
I don't see that. The only description I see is
Then entered the twins -- the handsomest, the best dressed, the
most distinguished-looking pair of young fellows the West had ever
seen. One was a little fairer than the other, but otherwise they
were exact duplicates. [p. 76]
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took
|place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn
(650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
| Kevin Wald
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Jerry Friedman
By the way, a "yellow-dog contract" is one in which the employee
agrees not to strike. The word was obviously invented by union
people, and I'm not sure how much the yellow refers to the
yellowish-brown color of a typical mongrel and how much it means
"cowardly".
--
Jerry Friedman