CRT in math testbooks

[Peter T. Daniels]

This afternoon on WHYY's "Fresh Air," Terry Gross interviewed the NYT's
Dana Goldstein about the "Don't Say Gay" Bill in Florida.

Turns out the problem with math textbooks isn't that they embody or
teach Critical Race Theory, but that they are suffused with something
called "social-emotional learning," a new threat invented by one Chris
Ruffo of the Manhattan Institute (McWhorter's old stomping ground,
which is what brought him to NYC).

Social-emotional learning encourages children to talk about their
feelings. Ruffo says. Ruffo thinks that the perpetrators of this horror
are trying to turn them into homosexuals or transes, or they're
grooming them for their pedophilic use. (He wasn't willing to be
interviewed by her, so she doesn't have him saying that stuff on
tape, but he had an extended email conversation with her, and she
quoted extensively from it.)

Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)

[spains...@gmail.com]

I think Family Guy can clear up this puzzle:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDAb4hlof0>

[S K]

for someone who is only marginally human, this is not an issue.

But if your teenage daughter suddenly announces to you that she identifies as a male going forward- very few present day parents are equipped to handle it.

I am with the New York Jew in "coming to America"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv8fUNSKieQ

"A man has a right to change his name to whatever he wants to change it to"

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:04:23 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

This Rufo is quite a piece of work. His WP article (which "may not
be unbiased") says he deliberately lies about everything so as to
foment hatred of pubic education.

And appears regularly with Tucker Carlson.

[Tony Cooper]

"Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

"It turns out..." is not a correct assessment. All of the news
articles I've read on the math books issue have covered that the
excluded books included references to "Critical Race Theory" and
"Social & Emotional Learning". Or, as the Florida Department of
Education officials put it, "prohibited topics".

CRT, though, is the red-meat term and most people read the articles,
glommed on to CRT, and glossed over the SEL term.

The real problem has been that the Florida Department of Education
spokespeople didn't identify what was in any of the textbooks that was
a "prohibited topic", refused to provide any examples, and refused to
even name the textbooks.

The New York Times did some extensive research and reviewed 21 books
they felt were on the list, but were unable to determine what in those
books would have been considered to be examples CRT or SEL aspects
because the FDoE won't reveal what they were looking for.

Florida has now re-evaluated some of the textbooks and removed them
from the list of rejections. But, without explanation of why the book
was rejected in the first place.

Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
math textbooks in time for the next school year.

Rufo, by the way, did not "invent" SEL. It's been around since 1994
and was advanced by Daniel Goleman and his associates at Yale's
"Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning" child
studies center. Goleman is now at Rutgers.

Rufo's position is that it is the invention of the devil and he's here
to expose it as such...and to get some media exposure.






--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
> that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
> and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
> math textbooks in time for the next school year.

Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
mathematics without political interference?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Lewis]

In message <k46m6hdgnrdmme6s0...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> CRT, though, is the red-meat term and most people read the articles,
> glommed on to CRT, and glossed over the SEL term.

And I would be shocked if even 1 in 1000 people had the slightest idea
what CRT or SEL actually are.

> The New York Times did some extensive research and reviewed 21 books
> they felt were on the list, but were unable to determine what in those
> books would have been considered to be examples CRT or SEL aspects
> because the FDoE won't reveal what they were looking for.

I saw a cartoon that summed up Florida's Education stance quite clearly,
it shows a line of three white-faced children a space, and then six
dark-faced children. In between was a '>'.

> Rufo, by the way, did not "invent" SEL. It's been around since 1994
> and was advanced by Daniel Goleman and his associates at Yale's
> "Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning" child
> studies center. Goleman is now at Rutgers.

> Rufo's position is that it is the invention of the devil and he's here
> to expose it as such...and to get some media exposure.

Angry dudebros really hate the idea of children being raised to not be
angry dudebros.

(I am well familiar with SEL since it was a large part of my wife's
coursework for her master's degree).

--
Don't be afraid to be weak, Don't be too proud to be strong.

[Lewis]

In message <t4febp$88q$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:

>> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
>> that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
>> and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
>> math textbooks in time for the next school year.

> Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
> mathematics without political interference?

Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone is
allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot brown
people.

--
I would rather be a mute poet, a blind artist or a deaf musician than
a heartless man. -Graffiti, bathroom wall @ The Napoleon House
New Orleans 1967 (via @johnlarroquette)

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)

I guess that depends on how white exactly. The host of the Greek
mythology podcast I've mentioned here before does criticize that ancient
Greeks in Hollywood movies are usually played by typical Hollywood white
Americans, i.e. Northern European types, rather than Mediterranean
types.

Anthony Quinn wasn't Greek, but he was probably a somewhat more
convincing choice for Zorba the Greek than Brad Pitt would be.

--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 12:59, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t4febp$88q$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill
>>> - that should never have been drafted and should not have been
>>> passed, and now many Florida schools will not be able to order
>>> and receive math textbooks in time for the next school year.
>
>> Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
>> mathematics without political interference?
>
> Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone
> is allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot
> brown people.

Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but exemptions
are made for people with senile dementia or other forms of insanity.

Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 29/04/2022 4:36 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/04/22 12:59, Lewis wrote:

<snip>

>> Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone
>> is allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot
>> brown people.
>
> Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but exemptions
> are made for people with senile dementia or other forms of insanity.

What about infantility? For example, the infantility that leads one to
demonise one's political opponents (as quoted above), making much more
difficult any kind of meaningful political discourse.

> Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.

I think you're better than that.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-04-28 21:36, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/04/22 12:59, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t4febp$88q$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill
>>>> - that should never have been drafted and should not have been
>>>> passed, and now many Florida schools will not be able to order
>>>> and receive math textbooks in time for the next school year.
>>
>>> Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
>>> mathematics without political interference?
>>
>> Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone
>> is allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot
>> brown people.
>
> Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but exemptions
> are made for people with senile dementia or other forms of insanity.

I did not know that, but it makes me wonder about a few things.

How is that enforced?

What percentage of ballots are deliberately spoiled?

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 14:40, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-04-28 21:36, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but
>> exemptions are made for people with senile dementia or other forms
>> of insanity.
>
> I did not know that, but it makes me wonder about a few things.
>
> How is that enforced?

The compulsory voting, you mean? Your name is checked off a list as the
polling booth officers hand you the blank ballot papers. After the
election, the Electoral Commission checks those lists, and issues fines
to those who didn't vote. The fine can be waived if you have a good excuse.

> What percentage of ballots are deliberately spoiled?

The total of invalid votes seems to hover at about 5%, but I don't know
of a breakdown between deliberately spoiled and accidentally
invalidated. It is known that the rate is higher in places with a large
immigrant population, and for example one way of voting incorrectly is
to use ticks and crosses instead of numbers, which suggests that some
people are trying to carry over rules from other countries.

Pre-poll and postal votes show an invalidity rate of 2%-3%. These are
cases where the voter has made an extra effort to vote, so the
"deliberately spoiled" rate should be close to zero. That suggests to me
that the above 5% can be split about half-and-half between deliberately
and accidentally spoiled.

Deliberately spoiled ballots tend to show up as cases where someone
writes "I don't trust any of the bastards" on the voting paper, or some
similar clue. The above figures suggest that this is uncommon.

A document with more detailed analysis can be found at

<https://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/research/files/informal-voting-2016.pdf>

A complicating factor is the so-called "donkey vote", where someone
numbers the candidates from 1 to 8 (or however many candidates there
are), starting with 1 at the top and continuing in the order the
candidates are listed. This is a valid vote, and is indistinguishable
from the case where someone really wanted to vote that way. (Most
voters, I suspect, fill in their first two or three preferences with
care, and then number randomly after that.) The only guard we have
against donkey voting is random allocation of the candidates on the paper.

My overall impression is that, although protest votes exist, they seem
to be at a fairly low level. Accidentally producing an invalid vote
seems to be more common.

[Silvano]

Peter Moylan hat am 29.04.2022 um 09:39 geschrieben:

> A complicating factor is the so-called "donkey vote", where someone
> numbers the candidates from 1 to 8 (or however many candidates there
> are), starting with 1 at the top and continuing in the order the
> candidates are listed.

A problem with your otherwise excellent voting system is the obligation
to number all candidates. I can see the advantage of making absolutely
sure that all votes count, even if it's the choice between number 7 and
8 on that ballot - i. e. two candidates that voter does not like at all
- but I remember a ballot with 46 parties, when I had never heard
anything about a dozen of them and had no idea what they stood for, if
their name did not make it obvious.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-04-29 07:39:36 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 29/04/22 14:40, lar3ryca wrote:
>> On 2022-04-28 21:36, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but
>>> exemptions are made for people with senile dementia or other forms
>>> of insanity.
>>
>> I did not know that, but it makes me wonder about a few things.
>>
>> How is that enforced?
>
> The compulsory voting, you mean? Your name is checked off a list as the
> polling booth officers hand you the blank ballot papers. After the
> election, the Electoral Commission checks those lists, and issues fines
> to those who didn't vote. The fine can be waived if you have a good excuse.

In the past (no longer) voting was compulsory in Chile. When my
mother-in-law she was well into her 90s and unable to get to the
polling station. They sent someone round to ask her why she hadn't
voted. They were eventually convinced that her excuse was good enough.

>
>> What percentage of ballots are deliberately spoiled?
>
> The total of invalid votes seems to hover at about 5%, but I don't know
> of a breakdown between deliberately spoiled and accidentally
> invalidated. It is known that the rate is higher in places with a large
> immigrant population, and for example one way of voting incorrectly is
> to use ticks and crosses instead of numbers, which suggests that some
> people are trying to carry over rules from other countries.

It probably depends on where you live. In Liverpool, with a large Irish
population, it is common for people to number their preferences. That
is normal in the Republic of Ireland, which has the single transferable
vote. I understand that in Liverpool they treat 1 as an X and ignore
the other other numbers. In other places they may treat it as a spoiled
ballot.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

My brother-in-law's sister (in Australia) complained about exactly that.

[CDB]

On 4/28/2022 11:09 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

>> Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
>> Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both male and
>> white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted as non-white, but
>> Euclid or Archimedes?)

> I guess that depends on how white exactly. The host of the Greek
> mythology podcast I've mentioned here before does criticize that
> ancient Greeks in Hollywood movies are usually played by typical
> Hollywood white Americans, i.e. Northern European types, rather than
> Mediterranean types.

Their sculpted images look pretty Northern European. I suppose there
has been a lot of genetic mixing since the Golden Age.

[Lewis]

Oh no, if that were true the results would be randomized and much
better.

The problem in Florida, and in most states, is that the are a wide
variety of mechanisms in place to discourage poor people and minorities
from voting while making it as easy as possible for rich and middle
class people to vote.

In 2016, Trump Lost Colorado, but even so at our polling place there
were 6 machines and no lines all day (I voted early, but I helped get
people to the polling place). When one of my wife's schools is is a
poor neighborhood, Title 1¹ school, and majority Hispanic and black (and
quite a lot of "Blaxicans").

That school was a polling location for three precincts (ours is one).
There were three machines, total. The lines were 2-4 hours long.

In addition, election day is a weekday, and while employers are required
by law to allow employees time to vote, many do not.

Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
and Hispanic voters.

¹ Title 1 is a classification for schools in which 90% of the students
qualify for free or reduced lunch. (Or around 90%?)


--
Hi, I'm Gary Cooper, but not the Gary Cooper that's dead.

[Peter Moylan]

We vote for two houses of parliament. In the House of Representatives
vote there are almost never more than ten candidates per electorate, and
typically you get only four or five. Under those conditions, having to
number every square is not a problem.

The Senate is another matter. In that case the entire state is one
electorate, and we are voting to elect six candidates in our state.
Multiple parties compete, each putting up multiple candidates, and some
have misleading names. (Misleading party names are a long-term gripe of
mine. For example, the "Informed Medical Opinions Party" exists solely
to oppose covid-19 vaccination.) That means that there can be 100 names
on the ballot paper. Some elections ago it was worse, giving us the
infamous "tablecloth ballot paper".

That problem has now been recognised, and the rules changed so that we
don't have to number all the squares. In fact, we even have the option
of voting for just one party, after which our preferences are allocated
according to a list prepared by that party.

All of the above is for federal elections. In state elections each state
can have different rules, and some states have optional preferential voting.

[Lewis]

In message <1x57lo93j27de$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

>> Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
>> Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
>> male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
>> as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)

> I guess that depends on how white exactly. The host of the Greek
> mythology podcast I've mentioned here before does criticize that ancient
> Greeks in Hollywood movies are usually played by typical Hollywood white
> Americans, i.e. Northern European types, rather than Mediterranean
> types.

It is also very easy to assume that what people in Greece look like now
is what they always looked like. We know, quite well, what Alexander the
Great looked like, and there's even a note in something or other that a
particular painting made him "too dark and swarthy" when he was know to
be "fair and ruddy". He also had a blue eye and a blown eye, though i
can't find that reference right now. It's possible I no longer have that
book.

A lot has happened in 2400 years.

--
If Daniel Dennett is right that there’s a human genetic need for
religion— then I’d like to imagine that my atheism is proof of
evolutionary biology in action. -- Adam Savage

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 21:30, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t4fmfe$ote$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.
>
> Oh no, if that were true the results would be randomized and much
> better.
>
> The problem in Florida, and in most states, is that the are a wide
> variety of mechanisms in place to discourage poor people and
> minorities from voting while making it as easy as possible for rich
> and middle class people to vote.
>
> In 2016, Trump Lost Colorado, but even so at our polling place there
> were 6 machines and no lines all day (I voted early, but I helped
> get people to the polling place). When one of my wife's schools is
> is a poor neighborhood, Title 1¹ school, and majority Hispanic and
> black (and quite a lot of "Blaxicans").
>
> That school was a polling location for three precincts (ours is one).
> There were three machines, total. The lines were 2-4 hours long.
>
> In addition, election day is a weekday, and while employers are
> required by law to allow employees time to vote, many do not.

That's one non-obvious advantage of compulsory voting. It effectively
forces the state to make voting easier. All of our elections are on
Saturdays, and in the worst voting queue I remember the delay was under
ten minutes. That was in a voting place that was right on the border
between two electorates, making its procedures more complicated than usual.

Admittedly there are still some people for whom Saturday is not a
suitable day, but they can be handled by pre-poll voting and postal voting.

> Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of
> thousands of voters from the roles based on their last names, trying
> to purge black and Hispanic voters.

Removing voters from the roll, whether it be because of racial
discrimination or any other reason, would be a serious crime in this
country. I haven't checked the penalties, but I wouldn't be surprised by
a 20-year prison sentence for someone who did that. How can Florida
officials get away with that? I would have thought that they would be in
violation of federal law, even if state law allowed it.

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 21:41, Lewis wrote:
> In message <1x57lo93j27de$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>>> Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
>>> Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both male
>>> and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted as
>>> non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
>
>> I guess that depends on how white exactly. The host of the Greek
>> mythology podcast I've mentioned here before does criticize that
>> ancient Greeks in Hollywood movies are usually played by typical
>> Hollywood white Americans, i.e. Northern European types, rather
>> than Mediterranean types.
>
> It is also very easy to assume that what people in Greece look like
> now is what they always looked like. We know, quite well, what
> Alexander the Great looked like, and there's even a note in something
> or other that a particular painting made him "too dark and swarthy"
> when he was know to be "fair and ruddy". He also had a blue eye and a
> blown eye, though i can't find that reference right now. It's
> possible I no longer have that book.
>
> A lot has happened in 2400 years.

As I understand it, the Greek peninsula has been invaded numerous times
over the centuries. That would give Greece more than its fair share of
genetic mixing.

[Adam Funk]

Interesting typo and/or satire.

> And appears regularly with Tucker Carlson.

--
Random numbers should not be generated with a method chosen at random.
---Donald Knuth

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
>voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
>and Hispanic voters.

What's this? I have no idea what you might be thinking of, and I
follow Florida news very closely.

In 2020 the Division of Elections for the state announced that there
were an estimated 85,000 registered voters that have been convicted of
a felony and are ineligible to vote. Some have been removed, but it's
a difficult process because someone who has never been convicted of a
felony could have the same name as someone who does.

Several years ago there was a huge flap because a number of "convicted
felons" were removed from the rolls, but it turned out that the state
was using a list of convicted felons that included people who had been
convicted of a felony in some other state. That does not make them
ineligible to vote in Florida.

The individual election offices in each county attempt to purge their
lists of names of people who are no longer in the county and are
registered somewhere else. That's a valid reason to purge the list.

We are not required to notify the election office when we move to a
different county, and can register at the county where we move to, so
some names are on multiple county's polls.

The requirement to show identification at the time we vote prevents
someone voting in two places, though. The identification must show
the current address.

I think your statement above is a total fabrication, but I do
understand how you could bite on even the wildest false claim about
Florida. Who wouldn't believe anything said about a state that won't
allow a school to use a math textbook that encourages childrens to get
along with each other.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 29/04/2022 1:52 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Who wouldn't believe anything said about a state that won't
> allow a school to use a math textbook that encourages childrens to get
> along with each other.

Shouldn't that stuff be in the Getting Along With Each Other textbook?
Putting it in the Mathematics textbook means either less room for
teaching mathematical skills (so less fit for purpose) or a bigger book
(so more expensive). I suppose these getting along with each other
skills are being shoehorned into Physics books and Chemistry books and
French books and Economics books, making them all either less fit for
purpose or more expensive? What a bloody stupid idea!

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:54:26 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >This afternoon on WHYY's "Fresh Air," Terry Gross interviewed the NYT's
> >Dana Goldstein about the "Don't Say Gay" Bill in Florida.
> >
> >Turns out the problem with math textbooks isn't that they embody or
> >teach Critical Race Theory, but that they are suffused with something
> >called "social-emotional learning," a new threat invented by one Chris
> >Ruffo of the Manhattan Institute (McWhorter's old stomping ground,
> >which is what brought him to NYC).
> >
> >Social-emotional learning encourages children to talk about their
> >feelings. Ruffo says. Ruffo thinks that the perpetrators of this horror
> >are trying to turn them into homosexuals or transes, or they're
> >grooming them for their pedophilic use. (He wasn't willing to be
> >interviewed by her, so she doesn't have him saying that stuff on
> >tape, but he had an extended email conversation with her, and she
> >quoted extensively from it.)
> >
> >Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> >Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> >male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> >as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
> "Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
> attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html

You really don't read what you respond to. You managed to find
the very article that was being discussed, by its author, on that
radio program (which for some reason I cannot view because
I have "reached my limit" of free articles -- going back how many
years, I wonder, since I only go there when someone provides
an intriguing link, which is quite rare).

> "It turns out..." is not a correct assessment. All of the news
> articles I've read on the math books issue have covered that the
> excluded books included references to "Critical Race Theory" and
> "Social & Emotional Learning". Or, as the Florida Department of
> Education officials put it, "prohibited topics".
>
> CRT, though, is the red-meat term and most people read the articles,
> glommed on to CRT, and glossed over the SEL term.
>
> The real problem has been that the Florida Department of Education
> spokespeople didn't identify what was in any of the textbooks that was
> a "prohibited topic", refused to provide any examples, and refused to
> even name the textbooks.
>
> The New York Times

Metonymy for the author's actual name?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:17:49 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:

> > Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
> > that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
> > and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
> > math textbooks in time for the next school year.

(If he knew all that, why didn't he provide clarifications when the
question came up a week or two ago?)

> Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
> mathematics without political interference?

No, see Rufo's ultimate goal -- the elimination of public schools.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 11:10:04 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

> > Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> > Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> > male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> > as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
>
> I guess that depends on how white exactly. The host of the Greek
> mythology podcast I've mentioned here before does criticize that ancient
> Greeks in Hollywood movies are usually played by typical Hollywood white
> Americans, i.e. Northern European types, rather than Mediterranean
> types.
>
> Anthony Quinn wasn't Greek, but he was probably a somewhat more
> convincing choice for Zorba the Greek than Brad Pitt would be.

I did once see far too much of *Troy* ...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 12:18:53 AM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 4:36 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 29/04/22 12:59, Lewis wrote:

> >> Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone
> >> is allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot
> >> brown people.
> > Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but exemptions
> > are made for people with senile dementia or other forms of insanity.
>
> What about infantility? For example, the infantility that leads one to
> demonise one's political opponents (as quoted above), making much more
> difficult any kind of meaningful political discourse.
> > Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.
> I think you're better than that.

Not only was he too lazy to find out anything about Tucker Carlson,
now he can't be arsed to find out anything about Christopher Rufo.

What's his attitude toward home-grown media-star nutcases?

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Yes, that's where Brad Pitt comes in. I too didn't make it through the
whole movie.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:51:48 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Of course I did. Your post starts out saying "It turns out.." as if
something new was revealed in the "Fresh Air" program, but nothing new
was revealed. There's nothing wrong with "Fresh Air" devoting a
segment to something that is already known, but your phrasing
suggested that it was somehow revealing that SEL was part of the
"prohibited topics" angle.

I waded through your comments about a Eucld, Archimedes, and John
McWhorter although I have no idea why you brought those names up, and
went to gist of the issue: SEL has always been acknowledged as one of
the "prohibited topics" although no examples of inclusions of SEL were
provided.

I also noticed that you gave Rufo credit for "inventing" SEL. What
you probably had in mind was tha Rufo invented the concept of SEL
being a threat, but when I read what I respond to I read what is
written, not what the inarticulate writer had in mind.

> You managed to find
>the very article that was being discussed, by its author, on that
>radio program (which for some reason I cannot view because
>I have "reached my limit" of free articles -- going back how many
>years, I wonder, since I only go there when someone provides
>an intriguing link, which is quite rare).
>
>> "It turns out..." is not a correct assessment. All of the news
>> articles I've read on the math books issue have covered that the
>> excluded books included references to "Critical Race Theory" and
>> "Social & Emotional Learning". Or, as the Florida Department of
>> Education officials put it, "prohibited topics".
>>
>> CRT, though, is the red-meat term and most people read the articles,
>> glommed on to CRT, and glossed over the SEL term.
>>
>> The real problem has been that the Florida Department of Education
>> spokespeople didn't identify what was in any of the textbooks that was
>> a "prohibited topic", refused to provide any examples, and refused to
>> even name the textbooks.
>>
>> The New York Times
>
>Metonymy for the author's actual name?

I have no idea what your point is there. The article linked to was
authored by Dana Goldstein and Stephanie Saul, but there's no
indication that the research and review of the textbooks was done by
them. In fact, I would not expect it to be. The actual searching
through the 21 textbooks would be done by unnamed staff and the
results provided to Goldstein and Saul.

>
>> did some extensive research and reviewed 21 books
>> they felt were on the list, but were unable to determine what in those
>> books would have been considered to be examples CRT or SEL aspects
>> because the FDoE won't reveal what they were looking for.
>>
>> Florida has now re-evaluated some of the textbooks and removed them
>> from the list of rejections. But, without explanation of why the book
>> was rejected in the first place.
>>
>> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
>> that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
>> and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
>> math textbooks in time for the next school year.
>>
>> Rufo, by the way, did not "invent" SEL. It's been around since 1994
>> and was advanced by Daniel Goleman and his associates at Yale's
>> "Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning" child
>> studies center. Goleman is now at Rutgers.
>>
>> Rufo's position is that it is the invention of the devil and he's here
>> to expose it as such...and to get some media exposure.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:53:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:17:49 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> > Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill -
>> > that should never have been drafted and should not have been passed,
>> > and now many Florida schools will not be able to order and receive
>> > math textbooks in time for the next school year.
>
>(If he knew all that, why didn't he provide clarifications when the
>question came up a week or two ago?)

DeSantis isn't concerned with the fall-out of his actions. His only
concern is how his actions will be perceived by the electorate. He
has total control of the legislature, and has coerced them into
passing numerous bills that everyone knew would be overuled and
reversed in court.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:36:11 +1000, Peter Moylan

<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 29/04/22 12:59, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t4febp$88q$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 29/04/22 09:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>> Florida now has a bill - the "Parental Rights in Education" bill
>>>> - that should never have been drafted and should not have been
>>>> passed, and now many Florida schools will not be able to order
>>>> and receive math textbooks in time for the next school year.
>>
>>> Do those rights include the right to have one's children taught
>>> mathematics without political interference?
>>
>> Florida, like all GOP-controlled states, does not believe that anyone
>> is allowed to do anything without political interference except shoot
>> brown people.
>
>Australia, as you probably know, has compulsory voting, but exemptions
>are made for people with senile dementia or other forms of insanity.
>
>Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.

Some people would claim that only the senile live in Florida.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-04-29 11:55:38 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 29/04/22 21:30, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t4fmfe$ote$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.
>>
>> Oh no, if that were true the results would be randomized and much
>> better.
>>
>> The problem in Florida, and in most states, is that the are a wide
>> variety of mechanisms in place to discourage poor people and
>> minorities from voting while making it as easy as possible for rich
>> and middle class people to vote.
>>
>> In 2016, Trump Lost Colorado,

I expect in Colorado you're very proud of Lauren Boebert.

>> but even so at our polling place there
>> were 6 machines and no lines all day (I voted early, but I helped
>> get people to the polling place). When one of my wife's schools is
>> is a poor neighborhood, Title 1¹ school, and majority Hispanic and
>> black (and quite a lot of "Blaxicans").
>>
>> That school was a polling location for three precincts (ours is one).
>> There were three machines, total. The lines were 2-4 hours long.
>>
>> In addition, election day is a weekday, and while employers are
>> required by law to allow employees time to vote, many do not.
>
> That's one non-obvious advantage of compulsory voting. It effectively
> forces the state to make voting easier. All of our elections are on
> Saturdays, and in the worst voting queue I remember the delay was under
> ten minutes.

When we voted a few days ago the queue was quite short, and the whole
operation took about 15 minutes. For our daughter, in Paris, it was 50

minutes.

> That was in a voting place that was right on the border
> between two electorates, making its procedures more complicated than usual.
>
> Admittedly there are still some people for whom Saturday is not a
> suitable day, but they can be handled by pre-poll voting and postal voting.
>
>> Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of
>> thousands of voters from the roles based on their last names, trying
>> to purge black and Hispanic voters.
>
> Removing voters from the roll, whether it be because of racial
> discrimination or any other reason, would be a serious crime in this
> country. I haven't checked the penalties, but I wouldn't be surprised by
> a 20-year prison sentence for someone who did that. How can Florida
> officials get away with that? I would have thought that they would be in
> violation of federal law, even if state law allowed it.


--

[Richard Heathfield]

How would such people deal with demographics data?

https://www.infoplease.com/us/census/florida/demographic-statistics

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:45:39 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

I'd like to post a retort to that, but I forget what I was going to
say.

You can't spoil my mood today. Matron has promised to add a second
cup of lime Jello to my lunch tray. I think it was Matron. It's some
woman who keeps coming into my room.

[Richard Heathfield]

Touché!

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
"spains...@gmail.com" <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:04:23 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > This afternoon on WHYY's "Fresh Air," Terry Gross interviewed the NYT's
> > Dana Goldstein about the "Don't Say Gay" Bill in Florida.
> >
> > Turns out the problem with math textbooks isn't that they embody or
> > teach Critical Race Theory, but that they are suffused with something
> > called "social-emotional learning," a new threat invented by one Chris
> > Ruffo of the Manhattan Institute (McWhorter's old stomping ground,
> > which is what brought him to NYC).
> >
> > Social-emotional learning encourages children to talk about their
> > feelings. Ruffo says. Ruffo thinks that the perpetrators of this horror
> > are trying to turn them into homosexuals or transes, or they're
> > grooming them for their pedophilic use. (He wasn't willing to be
> > interviewed by her, so she doesn't have him saying that stuff on
> > tape, but he had an extended email conversation with her, and she
> > quoted extensively from it.)
> >
> > Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> > Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> > male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> > as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
>

> I think Family Guy can clear up this puzzle:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDAb4hlof0>

You already posted that; there's B*all about mathematicians that I saw. (OK, I gave up at the 2nd advert)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:51:48 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:54:26 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >> >Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> >> >Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> >> >male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> >> >as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
> >> "Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
> >> attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.
> >>
> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
> >
> >You really don't read what you respond to.
>
> Of course I did. Your post starts out saying "It turns out.." as if
> something new was revealed in the "Fresh Air" program, but nothing new
> was revealed.

How many "Fresh Air" listeners, moron, do you think read the NYT
story?

> There's nothing wrong with "Fresh Air" devoting a
> segment to something that is already known, but your phrasing
> suggested that it was somehow revealing that SEL was part of the
> "prohibited topics" angle.

It was to hundreds of thousands of listeners. Many stories mentioned
the banning of math books because of CRT. They didn't look into or
explicate it, so an awful lot of news directors didn't read the story, either.

> I waded through your comments about a Eucld, Archimedes, and John
> McWhorter although I have no idea why you brought those names up, and

That's just because you're very, very stupid.

> >> The New York Times
> >Metonymy for the author's actual name?
>
> I have no idea what your point is there. The article linked to was
> authored by Dana Goldstein and Stephanie Saul, but there's no
> indication that the research and review of the textbooks was done by
> them. In fact, I would not expect it to be. The actual searching
> through the 21 textbooks would be done by unnamed staff and the
> results provided to Goldstein and Saul.

Then maybe the interview _did_ include new information, but you
wouldn't know that, would you. You prefer to go off with half-cocked
knee-jerk hostility rather than stew in your own vitriol.

> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

You'd never make it on Entertainment Tonight.

I assume. I have never seen it.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-04-29 05:39, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/04/22 18:08, Silvano wrote:
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.04.2022 um 09:39 geschrieben:
>>
>>> A complicating factor is the so-called "donkey vote", where
>>> someone numbers the candidates from 1 to 8 (or however many
>>> candidates there are), starting with 1 at the top and continuing in
>>> the order the candidates are listed.
>>
>> A problem with your otherwise excellent voting system is the
>> obligation to number all candidates. I can see the advantage of
>> making absolutely sure that all votes count, even if it's the choice
>> between number 7 and 8 on that ballot - i. e. two candidates that
>> voter does not like at all - but I remember a ballot with 46 parties,
>> when I had never heard anything about a dozen of them and had no idea
>> what they stood for, if their name did not make it obvious.

<snippage>

> That problem has now been recognised, and the rules changed so that we
> don't have to number all the squares. In fact, we even have the option
> of voting for just one party, after which our preferences are allocated
> according to a list prepared by that party.

Glad to hear it. I can think of several candidates in various elections
that I would not consider to belong in a list, regardless of the length
of same.

[Peter T. Daniels]

How is that supposed to explain why C**p*r failed to answer
the question back when it was asked?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:33:36 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>How many "Fresh Air" listeners, moron, do you think read the NYT
>story?

Moron, nomor.
Just a thought.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:33:36 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:51:48 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:54:26 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >> >Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
>> >> >Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
>> >> >male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
>> >> >as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
>> >> "Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
>> >> attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
>> >
>> >You really don't read what you respond to.
>>
>> Of course I did. Your post starts out saying "It turns out.." as if
>> something new was revealed in the "Fresh Air" program, but nothing new
>> was revealed.
>
>How many "Fresh Air" listeners, moron, do you think read the NYT
>story?
>

Whew! Is that another question I am expected to answer? Maybe
provide a Ven diagram?

Are you somehow under the impression that the NYT was the only source
that covered the story?

When the phrase "It turns out that..." is used, it's used to mean that
something has been revealed that contradicts previous information or
provides information that casts a new light on what was previously
known.

>> There's nothing wrong with "Fresh Air" devoting a
>> segment to something that is already known, but your phrasing
>> suggested that it was somehow revealing that SEL was part of the
>> "prohibited topics" angle.
>
>It was to hundreds of thousands of listeners. Many stories mentioned
>the banning of math books because of CRT. They didn't look into or
>explicate it, so an awful lot of news directors didn't read the story, either.

Those "many" stories must have circulated only in Jersey City NJ, and
those lackadaisical news directors must all work for outlets in
Hudson County NJ. Every one I came across either mentioned both CRT
and SEL or simply "prohibited topics".

>> I waded through your comments about a Eucld, Archimedes, and John
>> McWhorter although I have no idea why you brought those names up, and
>
>That's just because you're very, very stupid.

Screw Archimedes.

>
>> >> The New York Times
>> >Metonymy for the author's actual name?
>>
>> I have no idea what your point is there. The article linked to was
>> authored by Dana Goldstein and Stephanie Saul, but there's no
>> indication that the research and review of the textbooks was done by
>> them. In fact, I would not expect it to be. The actual searching
>> through the 21 textbooks would be done by unnamed staff and the
>> results provided to Goldstein and Saul.
>
>Then maybe the interview _did_ include new information, but you
>wouldn't know that, would you. You prefer to go off with half-cocked
>knee-jerk hostility rather than stew in your own vitriol.

There's an image that one might expect drawn by William Hogarth...a
man with half a cock and twitching knees stewing in a vat of vitriol.

>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>
>You'd never make it on Entertainment Tonight.
>

Your wit is only exceed by your charm.

[Lewis]

In message <jd2gae...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2022-04-29 11:55:38 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

>> On 29/04/22 21:30, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <t4fmfe$ote$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Florida gives me the impression that only the senile vote.
>>>
>>> Oh no, if that were true the results would be randomized and much
>>> better.
>>>
>>> The problem in Florida, and in most states, is that the are a wide
>>> variety of mechanisms in place to discourage poor people and
>>> minorities from voting while making it as easy as possible for rich
>>> and middle class people to vote.
>>>
>>> In 2016, Trump Lost Colorado,

> I expect in Colorado you're very proud of Lauren Boebert.

I was very disappointed to hear that her fight with Marjorie did not
result in a double fatality, Neither one of them should have been
allowed to even take their seat, as both had committed felonies between
the election and being sworn in.

--
I WILL NOT TRADE PANTS WITH OTHERS Bart chalkboard Ep. 7F05

[Lewis]

In message <gkln6h5vgso3d60ig...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
>>voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
>>and Hispanic voters.

> What's this? I have no idea what you might be thinking of, and I
> follow Florida news very closely.

<https://prospect.org/power/florida-s-voter-purge-hell/>

Just one example, but there have been other instances of Florida
removing voters, strangely almost always minorities.


--
'When you've been a wizard as long as I have, my boy, you'll learn
that as soon as you find anything that offers amazing
possibilities for the improvement of the human condition, it's
best to put the lid back on and pretend it never happened.' --The
Last Continent

[Lewis]

In message <t4gios$p8e$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/04/22 18:08, Silvano wrote:
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.04.2022 um 09:39 geschrieben:
>>
>>> A complicating factor is the so-called "donkey vote", where
>>> someone numbers the candidates from 1 to 8 (or however many
>>> candidates there are), starting with 1 at the top and continuing in
>>> the order the candidates are listed.
>>
>> A problem with your otherwise excellent voting system is the
>> obligation to number all candidates. I can see the advantage of
>> making absolutely sure that all votes count, even if it's the choice
>> between number 7 and 8 on that ballot - i. e. two candidates that
>> voter does not like at all - but I remember a ballot with 46 parties,
>> when I had never heard anything about a dozen of them and had no idea
>> what they stood for, if their name did not make it obvious.

> We vote for two houses of parliament. In the House of Representatives
> vote there are almost never more than ten candidates per electorate, and
> typically you get only four or five. Under those conditions, having to
> number every square is not a problem.

It is if you are expected to know anything at all about more than three
or four of them.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our
size?"

[Quinn C]

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
> "spains...@gmail.com" <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:04:23 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> This afternoon on WHYY's "Fresh Air," Terry Gross interviewed the NYT's
>>> Dana Goldstein about the "Don't Say Gay" Bill in Florida.

>>> [...]

>>> Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
>>> Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
>>> male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
>>> as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)
>>
>> I think Family Guy can clear up this puzzle:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDAb4hlof0>
>
> You already posted that; there's B*all about mathematicians that I
> saw. (OK, I gave up at the 2nd advert)

There's an explanation who's really white, "white white" right at the
beginning.

--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:54:26 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> "Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
>> attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
>
> You really don't read what you respond to. You managed to find
> the very article that was being discussed, by its author, on that
> radio program (which for some reason I cannot view because
> I have "reached my limit" of free articles -- going back how many
> years, I wonder, since I only go there when someone provides
> an intriguing link, which is quite rare).

Those limits are usually per month, but can be very low, 2 or even 1
with some publications.

--
The wrong body ... now comes not to claim rightness but to
dismantle the system that metes out rightness and wrongness
according to the dictates of various social orders.
-- Jack Halberstam, Unbuilding Gender

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <gkln6h5vgso3d60ig...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>>>Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
>>>voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
>>>and Hispanic voters.
>
>> What's this? I have no idea what you might be thinking of, and I
>> follow Florida news very closely.
>
><https://prospect.org/power/florida-s-voter-purge-hell/>
>
>Just one example, but there have been other instances of Florida
>removing voters, strangely almost always minorities.

I assume you read the article, and that whatever schools you attended
did provide math textbooks that gave you a working knowledge of how
numbers are represented.

That article refers to a list of 180,000 *potential* non-citizens. The
list was then narrowed down to 2,700 *potential* non-citizens. The
list was based on DMV records of driver's license applications.

The narrowed-down list was then sent to county Election officials.
Some did not take any action, and some sent out letters to those on
the list.

The article then goes on about the "purge", but does not state that
any on the list were removed as ineligible voters. It does not even
say if any on the list actually registered to vote. All they did was
apply for a driver's license or a state ID.

No one can be purged from the voter rolls who has not registered. They
are not on the rolls unless they are registered.

So...we go from "hundreds of thousands" to 180,000 to 2,700 to 26 in
Collier County. Oh, and 8 of the 26 were removed only because they
didn't respond to the letter and it's not known if they were eligible.

I do wonder if your "other instances" are any more credible than this
instance.

The Governor of Florida, and the legislature of Florida, *is* actively
attempting (and succeeding to) the suppression of the Black and brown
vote in Florida. They're doing it by gerrymandering voting districts
to eliminate districts that are likely to elect Democrats, and by
creating election laws that make it more difficult to register and to
vote.

The thing that bothers me is that there are some real problems that
should be addressed, but there are too many people - like you - that
ignore the real problems but swallow the webmyths and propogate them.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:54:26 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >This afternoon on WHYY's "Fresh Air," Terry Gross interviewed the NYT's
> >Dana Goldstein about the "Don't Say Gay" Bill in Florida.
> >

> >Turns out the problem with math textbooks isn't that they embody or
> >teach Critical Race Theory, but that they are suffused with something
> >called "social-emotional learning," a new threat invented by one Chris
> >Ruffo of the Manhattan Institute (McWhorter's old stomping ground,
> >which is what brought him to NYC).
> >
> >Social-emotional learning encourages children to talk about their
> >feelings. Ruffo says. Ruffo thinks that the perpetrators of this horror
> >are trying to turn them into homosexuals or transes, or they're
> >grooming them for their pedophilic use. (He wasn't willing to be
> >interviewed by her, so she doesn't have him saying that stuff on
> >tape, but he had an extended email conversation with her, and she
> >quoted extensively from it.)
> >

> >Though she did say that one of the books had a unit on Great
> >Mathematicians of the Past, and only one of them was both
> >male and white. (I suppose medieval Arabs could be counted
> >as non-white, but Euclid or Archimedes?)

> "Fresh Air" is a bit late to the party. Rufo (one "f") has been
> attacking "Social & Emotional Learning" (SEL) in schools since March.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
>

> "It turns out..." is not a correct assessment. All of the news
> articles I've read on the math books issue have covered that the
> excluded books included references to "Critical Race Theory" and
> "Social & Emotional Learning". Or, as the Florida Department of
> Education officials put it, "prohibited topics".
>
> CRT, though, is the red-meat term and most people read the articles,
> glommed on to CRT, and glossed over the SEL term.
>
> The real problem has been that the Florida Department of Education
> spokespeople didn't identify what was in any of the textbooks that was
> a "prohibited topic", refused to provide any examples, and refused to
> even name the textbooks.
>

Ah so. Well Chris Ruffo is quoted as having an additional concern. I
don't see why he should fear that either CRT or SEL promotes
homosexuality.

[Lewis]

In message <rnmo6htb95cb37obj...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>In message <gkln6h5vgso3d60ig...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>
>>>>Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
>>>>voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
>>>>and Hispanic voters.
>>
>>> What's this? I have no idea what you might be thinking of, and I
>>> follow Florida news very closely.
>>
>><https://prospect.org/power/florida-s-voter-purge-hell/>
>>
>>Just one example, but there have been other instances of Florida
>>removing voters, strangely almost always minorities.

> I assume you read the article, and that whatever schools you attended
> did provide math textbooks that gave you a working knowledge of how
> numbers are represented.

> That article refers to a list of 180,000 *potential* non-citizens. The
> list was then narrowed down to 2,700 *potential* non-citizens. The
> list was based on DMV records of driver's license applications.

Yes. And that list was, please note, 180, 000.

> The narrowed-down list was then sent to county Election officials.
> Some did not take any action, and some sent out letters to those on
> the list.

The "narrowing" was a trial balloon . Nothing was ever said or even
implied that the full 180,000 were not going to be targetted.

But fine, here is another case.

<https://www.salon.com/2000/12/04/voter_file/>

Florida has also done run-arounds recently to thwart the will of those
people who WERE allowed to vote by ignoring or subverting the voter's
approval to end Florida's lifetime ban on felons. That represents a
THIRD of the black population in Florida, of course.

<https://www.huffpost.com/entry/florida-voter-purge-federal-warning_n_1564131>

Florida has a long and glorious history of suppressing the vote,
especially of minorities, going back to reconstruction.

And here is a story specifically about the efforst Florida is making to
fix the election this fall

<https://atlantadailyworld.com/2022/04/26/florida-at-it-again-more-anti-voter-laws-to-stop-voters-of-color/>

and another

<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/florida-enacts-new-election-laws-ahead-of-2022-midterm-elections/ar-AAWEqHW>

and another

<https://floridaphoenix.com/blog/republicans-were-trying-to-thwart-voters-on-the-fl-felon-voting-rights-proposal-all-along-aclu-attorney-says-and-new-law-is-proof/>

And naother

<https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-judge-florida-law-requiring-financial-payments-be-made-before-voting-unconstitutional>

And, if you subsribe to the Miami herald, this one

<https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article251500333.html>

How many do you need?

--
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:37:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <rnmo6htb95cb37obj...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>>>In message <gkln6h5vgso3d60ig...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>>>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Add to that that Florida, specifically, removed hundreds of thousands of
>>>>>voters from the roles based on their last names, trying to purge black
>>>>>and Hispanic voters.

Well, you might want to reconsider that claim about purging Hispanic
voters. That's a problem in Florida for the politicians. There's
growing indication that the Hispanic vote is skewing to the Republican
side because a lot of those Hispanics in Florida are Cuban or of Cuban
descent.

The Republicans don't know to suppress just the Hispanics who tend to
vote for Democrats.

>>>
>>>> What's this? I have no idea what you might be thinking of, and I
>>>> follow Florida news very closely.
>>>
>>><https://prospect.org/power/florida-s-voter-purge-hell/>
>>>
>>>Just one example, but there have been other instances of Florida
>>>removing voters, strangely almost always minorities.
>
>> I assume you read the article, and that whatever schools you attended
>> did provide math textbooks that gave you a working knowledge of how
>> numbers are represented.
>
>> That article refers to a list of 180,000 *potential* non-citizens. The
>> list was then narrowed down to 2,700 *potential* non-citizens. The
>> list was based on DMV records of driver's license applications.
>
>Yes. And that list was, please note, 180, 000.

That is not "hundreds of thousands".

>
>> The narrowed-down list was then sent to county Election officials.
>> Some did not take any action, and some sent out letters to those on
>> the list.
>
>The "narrowing" was a trial balloon . Nothing was ever said or even
>implied that the full 180,000 were not going to be targetted.
>
>But fine, here is another case.
>
><https://www.salon.com/2000/12/04/voter_file/>
>
>Florida has also done run-arounds recently to thwart the will of those
>people who WERE allowed to vote by ignoring or subverting the voter's
>approval to end Florida's lifetime ban on felons. That represents a
>THIRD of the black population in Florida, of course.
>
><https://www.huffpost.com/entry/florida-voter-purge-federal-warning_n_1564131>

I didn't read that link because I'm already very familiar with the
subject.

The problem with using "Florida" that way is that the voters in
Florida voted to repeal the law banning felons from voting, and then
the Republican legislature did an end-run and declared that the vote
would only be restored after all fines and penalties were paid and
that felons have to through a process to have their voting rights
restored.

In other words, the Republican politicians were doing the thwarting,
and the thwartees were the citizens of Florida who voted to overturn
the ban.

>Florida has a long and glorious history of suppressing the vote,
>especially of minorities, going back to reconstruction.

Be more specific. The intent is to supress the vote of those who are
expected to vote for candidates of the party not in power.

While the effect is racial, the intent is suppress votes for
Democrats.

>
>How many do you need?

None.

I snipped the links to all of your cites. Not because I disagree or
would argue with anything in any of them, but because they are all
references to issues that I already know about, and know about in more
depth that you might have gained from reading them. For every one
you've cited, I've read six or more other articles that present the
same facts.

I follow politics, and Florida politics, quite assidiously.

[Snidely]

Stefan Ram pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> writes:
>> On 29/04/2022 1:52 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Who wouldn't believe anything said about a state that won't
>>> allow a school to use a math textbook that encourages childrens to get
>>> along with each other.
>> Shouldn't that stuff be in the Getting Along With Each Other textbook?
>
> This might be due to the idea of "mainstreaming" as in
> "gender mainstreaming".
>
>> Mainstreaming involves ensuring that gender perspectives
>> and attention to the goal of gender equality are central
>> to /all/ activities
> The World-Wide Web (slashes added by me [S.R.])
>
> "/All/ activities" means that gender should be considered
> even in mathematics text books.
>
> So, may be they think that "Getting Along With Each Other"
> is so important that it, too, should be considered even in
> mathematics texts books.
>
> But others think that all those "applications" are distracting
> from the math! Web:
>
>> They said students who were taught abstract math concepts
>> fared better in experiments than those taught with
>> real-world examples, such as story problems.
>> Adding extraneous details makes it hard for students to
>> extract the basic mathematical concepts and apply them to
>> new problems, they said.
>> "We're really making it difficult for students because we
>> are distracting them from the underlying math," said
>> Jennifer Kaminski, a research scientist at Ohio State
>> University, whose study appears in the journal Science.
>>
> World-Wide Web, 2008.

Pretty useless quotation without a proper cite.

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[Peter Moylan]

As it happens, my voting papers are right beside me, and I'll probably
fill them in this afternoon. (The election is still a few weeks away,
but I applied for a postal vote because of covid-19.) There are nine
candidates in my electorate. My main problem in deciding how to vote is
that I want to put four of them equal last.

One party is called "Informed Medical Options Party". You might think
that they want to press the government to listen to medical advice. It's
actually the opposite: an anti-vaccination party.

For the other three, we have one racist party, one independent who used
to belong to the racist party, and one party whose sole raison d'etre is
to promote the business interests of a billionaire. And that's not even
counting one mainstream party whose policies are anathema to me.

I'm now leaning towards the idea of favouring optional preferential
voting, where you don't have to number all the squares. We already have
that in state elections.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 23:16, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 1:52 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:

>> Who wouldn't believe anything said about a state that won't allow a
>> school to use a math textbook that encourages childrens to get
>> along with each other.
>
> Shouldn't that stuff be in the Getting Along With Each Other

> textbook? Putting it in the Mathematics textbook means either less
> room for teaching mathematical skills (so less fit for purpose) or a
> bigger book (so more expensive). I suppose these getting along with
> each other skills are being shoehorned into Physics books and
> Chemistry books and French books and Economics books, making them all
> either less fit for purpose or more expensive? What a bloody stupid
> idea!

The impression I got from an upthread discussion is that the people
criticising these books are refusing to say which books they are talking
about, making their claims impossible to check.

[Peter Moylan]

On 29/04/22 22:52, Tony Cooper wrote:

> The individual election offices in each county attempt to purge
> their lists of names of people who are no longer in the county and
> are registered somewhere else. That's a valid reason to purge the
> list.
>
> We are not required to notify the election office when we move to a
> different county, and can register at the county where we move to,
> so some names are on multiple county's polls.
>
> The requirement to show identification at the time we vote prevents
> someone voting in two places, though. The identification must show
> the current address.

The system would be much simpler if you had, as we do, a single national
body in charge of running elections. When we register a change of
address with the Electoral Office, all relevant rolls are updated. If we
fail to register the change of address, we must vote in the old
electorate. (This also happens if the change of address is too close to
an election date.)

To forestall an obvious objection: voting in the old electorate does not
require a physical trip to the old address. Absentee votes are
available. If I happen to be travelling I can vote anywhere in the
country. (Or, in the case of a state election, anywhere in the state.)

[Peter Moylan]

On 30/04/22 08:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> quotes:

>>>> teach Critical Race Theory,
>
> There it is! "Critical Race Theory"!
> (So far, I was only aware of "Cathode Ray Tube".)

It did occur to me to wonder whether any textbooks had been banned for
mentioning cathode ray tubes.

[Richard Heathfield]

Cross-thread alert! Elsewhere, we have people claiming that Tucker
Carlson (whoever that might be) is a racist but refusing to provide any
supporting evidence for that claim. The answer in both cases is
Hitchens's Razor, surely?

[Tony Cooper]

It's an ongoing process. Some previously rejected books have been
re-evaluated and accepted. Some publishers are making some changes
that will make the books acceptable.

When the next school year begins, all schools will have math textbooks
available.

It's not to the Administration's benefit to make it clear why the
books were originally rejected or what changes are made. What
DeSantis wants is that the electorate remembers that he stepped in and
stopped the publishers from poisoning the minds of children. That he
did it, not why he did it, is the message.

What has not been brought up is whether or not the books are effective
tools for teaching math. Not a whisper about that.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 12:19:24 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 29/04/22 22:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> The individual election offices in each county attempt to purge
>> their lists of names of people who are no longer in the county and
>> are registered somewhere else. That's a valid reason to purge the
>> list.
>>
>> We are not required to notify the election office when we move to a
>> different county, and can register at the county where we move to,
>> so some names are on multiple county's polls.
>>
>> The requirement to show identification at the time we vote prevents
>> someone voting in two places, though. The identification must show
>> the current address.
>
>The system would be much simpler if you had, as we do, a single national
>body in charge of running elections.

Impossible here. For that to happen would require a Constitutional
Amendment. the Constitution of the United States reads: "Article I,
Section 4, Clause 1: The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections
for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by
the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make
or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing [sic]
Senators."

To "alter such Regulations" means that a majority of the members of
Congress would have to vote for their state to relinquish the right of
their state to conduct the elections. That ain't gonna happen.

[CDB]

On 4/29/2022 9:08 PM, Snidely wrote:
> Stefan Ram:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1154659

[Peter T. Daniels]

2/3 of the members of each House

> would have to vote for their state to relinquish the right of
> their state to conduct the elections.

AND 3/4 of the states (38 of them) would have to ratify it.

Someone didn't bother to scroll down to Article V.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Do you have constituencies smaller than states?

If we move out of a district (congressional or state/local legislative),
we have to change our registration, because the districts are drawn
by population (very strictly), and someone living in another district
doesn't get to choose the representatives for where they used to live.

[Tony Cooper]

As far as I know, no state requires a person to de-register when the
move from one district to another. What is required to vote is to
register in the new district.

Theoretically, my name appears on the registered voter rolls in two
Indiana districts, three Illinois districts, and three Florida
districts. My name may have been purged from any or all except my
current district's roll, but I did not remove my name from them.

I don't know if any of the districts was registered in, but no longer
live in, purged the list of inactive names.

I am only eligible to vote in one Florida district. When I next vote,
the address on the ID I'll present must agree with the address on
registered voter list for that district.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Did anyone suggest that they do?

Stop inventing non-problems to try to start fights about.

[Ken Blake]

On 29 Apr 2022 22:35:35 GMT, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)

wrote:

>Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> quotes:
>>>>teach Critical Race Theory,
>
> There it is! "Critical Race Theory"!
> (So far, I was only aware of "Cathode Ray Tube".)

Me too.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

My post was intended to add additonal information, not to contradict.

However, a "change" is an action that alters something. No change is
made to the records of the district one leaves, and the record in the
new district is an addition, not a change.

My post brought out the fact that no change is made to the records in
the previous district in the US system. In Peter Moylan's case, a
change is made to the records when an old address is changed to a new
address.

I do note that you have maliciously snipped my additional information
and presented a "snippet" of that post. Tut, tut.

>
>> move from one district to another. What is required to vote is to
>> register in the new district.

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> On 30/04/22 08:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> quotes:
>
>>>>> teach Critical Race Theory,
>>
>> There it is! "Critical Race Theory"!
>> (So far, I was only aware of "Cathode Ray Tube".)
>
> It did occur to me to wonder whether any textbooks had been banned for
> mentioning cathode ray tubes.

Textbooks mentioning those might be up for a purge for being outdated.
Today's students might have never seen a cathode ray tube.

--
For since no male
Has ruled me or has fed,
I think my own thoughts
In my woman's head. -- Lesbia Harford, Fatherless

[Lewis]

In message <kkso6h11gs5apiuqv...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:37:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> Well, you might want to reconsider that claim about purging Hispanic
> voters. That's a problem in Florida for the politicians. There's
> growing indication that the Hispanic vote is skewing to the Republican
> side because a lot of those Hispanics in Florida are Cuban or of Cuban
> descent.

> The Republicans don't know to suppress just the Hispanics who tend to
> vote for Democrats.

They do, if you're in Miami, you're OK. If you're elsewhere in the state,
you re liberal scum.

>>Yes. And that list was, please note, 180, 000.

> That is not "hundreds of thousands".

It is two hundred thousand, and it is not the only time that numbers
that high have been targeted. So yes, it is hundreds of thousands.

--
oh no! there's been unauthorized access to my paypal account!!! ...
how nice of someone at a grade school in korea to notice and
inform me of it

[Lewis]

they are also refusing to say WHY the books they are banning fail their
'test'. Or say anything at all.

It's all bullshit posturing by the TreasonParty in their effort to
spread disinformation and instill a sense of panic, hoping that they mange
to keep enough power until they can try again to overthrow the
government. This time they will have a better plan.

--
I went down the street to the 24-hour grocery. When I got there, the
guy was locking the front door. I said, "Hey, the sign says
you're open 24 hours." He said, "Yes, but not in a row." --
Steven Wright

[Tony Cooper]

You do offer some over-the-top opinions.

I agree it's posturing, but discount the rest of your description.

My take: DeSantis is doing it the way does in order to establish
himself as a defender of children and an advocate of parental rights
to restrict unwanted messaging to the children. He isn't interested
in providing specifics because he's just interested in creating the
image. So far, that's working.

He already has the power and is in no danger of losing it. He's a
sure bet for re-election to the governorship of Florida, and the
odds-on favorite to be President of the United States starting with
the election in 2024 or 2028.

If Trump runs in 2024, DeSantis may not. (I would not bet money that
he *will not* run in 2024 even if Trump runs)

I wish I could describe the situation in other terms, but I'm
realistic enough to know that the dreadful scenario I'm describing
above is probably dead-on.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Don't forget about the attempt to violate the XXIVth Amendment
by requiring all former convicts to pay all the fees and fines and
whatnot incurred during their legal procedures and confinement
before registering to vote.

"AMENDMENT XXIV"
Passed by Congress August 27, 1962. Ratified January 23, 1964.

"Section 1.
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or
other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President
or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall
not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason
of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

"Section 2.
"The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate
legislation."

Interestingly, it was proposed and ratified well before the Civil Rights
Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 30-Apr-22 3:05, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> I'm now leaning towards the idea of favouring optional preferential
> voting, where you don't have to number all the squares. We already have
> that in state elections.

Where there are large numbers of candidates, and you are asked to number
them in order of preference...
Is there any rule which states you must use the decimal numbering system?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:13:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <kkso6h11gs5apiuqv...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:37:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>> Well, you might want to reconsider that claim about purging Hispanic
>> voters. That's a problem in Florida for the politicians. There's
>> growing indication that the Hispanic vote is skewing to the Republican
>> side because a lot of those Hispanics in Florida are Cuban or of Cuban
>> descent.
>
>> The Republicans don't know to suppress just the Hispanics who tend to
>> vote for Democrats.
>
>They do, if you're in Miami, you're OK. If you're elsewhere in the state,
>you re liberal scum.

Your map of Florida omits Tampa and the surrounding counties? The
those-of-Cuban-descents in that area are mostly third- and
fourth-generation, though, and less of a voting bloc. Still, there
are about 80,000 in Tampa, and that's a lot of votes to go after.

Actually, the city in Florida that has the highest Cuban-American
population is Hialeah at 73.3% of the city's population.

>
>>>Yes. And that list was, please note, 180, 000.
>
>> That is not "hundreds of thousands".
>
>It is two hundred thousand, and it is not the only time that numbers
>that high have been targeted. So yes, it is hundreds of thousands.

I think your school must have provided a deficient math textbook.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 30-Apr-22 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>> As far as I know, no state requires a person to de-register when the
>>
>> Did anyone suggest that they do?
>>
>> Stop inventing non-problems to try to start fights about.
>
> My post was intended to add additonal information, not to contradict.
>
> However, a "change" is an action that alters something. No change is
> made to the records of the district one leaves, and the record in the
> new district is an addition, not a change.
>
> My post brought out the fact that no change is made to the records in
> the previous district in the US system. In Peter Moylan's case, a
> change is made to the records when an old address is changed to a new
> address.

I for one thank you for that information.
There has been a fair amount of talk about the fact that Mark Meadows
was registered to vote in (I think) three different states.
The reports made it seem like an illegal act, but your text implies that
he may have actually done nothing wrong.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter T. Daniels]

If he maintained domiciles in three districts, he did; for there was
nothing to stop him from submitting ballots in all three of them.

In other times, Congresspeople with their families lived in the DC area
full-time and rarely visited their home district. They looked after the
district's interests from the capital. Chicago was delighted to have
Sidney Yates represent the Illinois Ninth District for many, many years
-- the North Lake Shore affluent area -- and those of us who lived there
were very happy that he was the guardian of all sorts of cultural
funding (NEH, NEA, NSF, and all that), and that he had a crackerjack
Constituent Services team in his offices in the Federal Buildings. I
don't recall any office in the district.

Of course he maintained a residential address in the district.

I don't know what sort of family he might have had at his advanced
age, but if he had a spouse, presumably she voted in Maryland or
Virginia. He didn't.

How does it work in "pocket boroughs"?

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 3:47:39 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 30-Apr-22 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> > On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >>> As far as I know, no state requires a person to de-register when the
>> >> Did anyone suggest that they do?
>> >> Stop inventing non-problems to try to start fights about.
>> > My post was intended to add additonal information, not to contradict.
>> > However, a "change" is an action that alters something. No change is
>> > made to the records of the district one leaves, and the record in the
>> > new district is an addition, not a change.
>> > My post brought out the fact that no change is made to the records in
>> > the previous district in the US system. In Peter Moylan's case, a
>> > change is made to the records when an old address is changed to a new
>> > address.
>>
>> I for one thank you for that information.
>> There has been a fair amount of talk about the fact that Mark Meadows
>> was registered to vote in (I think) three different states.
>> The reports made it seem like an illegal act, but your text implies that
>> he may have actually done nothing wrong.
>
>If he maintained domiciles in three districts, he did; for there was
>nothing to stop him from submitting ballots in all three of them.

You want to stand by that comment as written, Petey?

This was the 2020 Presidential election.

[Tony Cooper]

Yes, but he did do something wrong. He voted using a registered
address that he was not entitled to register.

North Carolina requires that the address used must be one in which the
person actually lives. The person need not live at that address
full-time, but there are minimum requirements.

Meadows never lived in the trailer (caravan) used for his address. It
was rented, not owned, by Meadows, and he was never there.

Multiple registrations are legal because we don't need to de-register,
but there are conditions that vary by state and district on what
constitutes the legal residence. Multiple registrations are legal,
but a vote can be cast using only one.

[Snidely]

Tony Cooper explained :

> My post was intended to add additonal information, not to contradict.
>
> However, a "change" is an action that alters something. No change is
> made to the records of the district one leaves, and the record in the
> new district is an addition, not a change.
>

And more information: voter registration in California is coordinated
if not administered at the state level (and the DMV provides a way to
update your registration when you update your reg^Wdrivers license,
forwarding the information to the elections department). Election
ballots, precinct lists, and voting locations are administered at the
county, but coordinated and/or updated with the state record. So one
stop changes the information everywhere.

More Question: (for PMoylan and the Ozzies) There was mention that a
change in registration that came in too close to the election meant
voting in the old district, but that was okay because absentee ballots.
Is the window for "came in too close" bigger than time to acquire
absentee ballots?

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/05/22 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:19:32 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> The system would be much simpler if you had, as we do, a single
>> national body in charge of running elections. When we register a
>> change of address with the Electoral Office, all relevant rolls
>> are updated. If we fail to register the change of address, we must
>> vote in the old electorate. (This also happens if the change of
>> address is too close to an election date.)
>>
>> To forestall an obvious objection: voting in the old electorate
>> does not require a physical trip to the old address. Absentee
>> votes are available. If I happen to be travelling I can vote
>> anywhere in the country. (Or, in the case of a state election,
>> anywhere in the state.)
>
> Do you have constituencies smaller than states?

Only in the case of local government elections. There, your address
affects which city council election you're voting in.

Ah, but I see that I snipped your description of "district", because I
misunderstood the meaning of "constituency". That's an electorate in our
terminology, and there are a number of them per state. Boundaries are
re-drawn now and then as the result of population changes.

My point above, though, is that if I'm absent from my home electorate I
can still vote (for the candidates in my home electorte) at any other
polling booth. Polling booths are able to hand out voting papers for
other electorates. I suppose in the past that meant that they had to
keep a collection of spares for the hundred or so electorates in the
country. These days they probably have some sort of print-on-demand system.

[Peter Moylan]

I had to check that recently, but now I can't find the rules about
deadlines. I applied for a postal vote, and got the papers in the mail a
few days later. The instructions do say that the postal vote must be
received by the Electoral Commission by "the 13th day after election
day". That's a more generous allowance than I expected. Now I understand
why, in the case of a close race, the vote-counters have to wait for the
outstanding postal votes to arrive.

But an absentee ballot is something different. To have an absentee vote,
you just have to turn up at any voting booth on election day. No notice
need be given, and one doesn't have to apply in advance.

The polling booths must have some mechanism for supplying ballot papers
for other electorates. As I mentioned in another post, they probably
have some sort of print-on-demand system, except in the remote places
where they can't get an internet connection.

Remark: all the stuff like registering to vote and registering a change
of address can be done on-line, so that takes effect immediately. No
doubt there are also people who want to do it the old-fashioned way.

If you turn up in person at the state or federal "services" office, you
can probably do the voting address change and the driver's licence
change in the same visit.

[CDB]

On 4/30/2022 3:38 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>> Well, you might want to reconsider that claim about purging
>>> Hispanic voters. That's a problem in Florida for the
>>> politicians. There's growing indication that the Hispanic vote
>>> is skewing to the Republican side because a lot of those
>>> Hispanics in Florida are Cuban or of Cuban descent.

>>> The Republicans don't know to suppress just the Hispanics who
>>> tend to vote for Democrats.

>> They do, if you're in Miami, you're OK. If you're elsewhere in the
>> state, you re liberal scum.

> Your map of Florida omits Tampa and the surrounding counties? The
> those-of-Cuban-descents in that area are mostly third- and
> fourth-generation, though, and less of a voting bloc. Still, there
> are about 80,000 in Tampa, and that's a lot of votes to go after.

> Actually, the city in Florida that has the highest Cuban-American
> population is Hialeah at 73.3% of the city's population.

>>>> Yes. And that list was, please note, 180, 000.

>>> That is not "hundreds of thousands".

>> It is two hundred thousand, and it is not the only time that
>> numbers that high have been targeted. So yes, it is hundreds of
>> thousands.

> I think your school must have provided a deficient math textbook.

Ping DeSantis.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:29:24 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/05/22 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:19:32 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> The system would be much simpler if you had, as we do, a single
> >> national body in charge of running elections. When we register a
> >> change of address with the Electoral Office, all relevant rolls
> >> are updated. If we fail to register the change of address, we must
> >> vote in the old electorate. (This also happens if the change of
> >> address is too close to an election date.)
> >>
> >> To forestall an obvious objection: voting in the old electorate
> >> does not require a physical trip to the old address. Absentee
> >> votes are available. If I happen to be travelling I can vote
> >> anywhere in the country. (Or, in the case of a state election,
> >> anywhere in the state.)
> >
> > Do you have constituencies smaller than states?
> Only in the case of local government elections. There, your address
> affects which city council election you're voting in.
>
> Ah, but I see that I snipped your description of "district", because I
> misunderstood the meaning of "constituency". That's an electorate in our
> terminology, and there are a number of them per state. Boundaries are
> re-drawn now and then as the result of population changes.
>
> My point above, though, is that if I'm absent from my home electorate I
> can still vote (for the candidates in my home electorte) at any other
> polling booth.

You've mentioned that before. I suppose it could work in a very small '
country! But if the stars are aligned correctly, in one quadrennial
November election we might vote for officials (and other things)
in a ward [division of a municipality represented on the City Council],
a municipality, a county, a state's two legislative houses, statewide
offices, one of the state's senators in DC, a Congressional district,
and president.

Almost none of the boundaries of those units within a state will
coincide. Only the few hundred people in one "Electoral District"
(the NJ term) or "precinct" (the Illinois term) can be absolutely
certain of having all the same representatives etc. as anyone else.

> Polling booths are able to hand out voting papers for
> other electorates. I suppose in the past that meant that they had to
> keep a collection of spares for the hundred or so electorates in the
> country. These days they probably have some sort of print-on-demand system.

Hundred or so! Yours is a _very_ tiny country, it's just spread out a lot!

The state of New Hampshire, one of the very smallest, has 400
legislative districts.in its House.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_General_Court

NYC has 51 City Council members, Chicago in my time had 50 --
there's your hundred or so districts right there!

[Adam Funk]

Someone will probably argue that the "fees and fines and whatnot" are
something other than taxes. (Just to be clear, I'm in favour of
letting them vote.)

> "Section 2.
> "The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate
> legislation."
>
> Interestingly, it was proposed and ratified well before the Civil Rights
> Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

--
One last word to the wise
While we got time to kill
If the X-rays don't get ya
Then the heartbreak surely will

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Ha - Montreal has 65 (from 48 districts, if I counted right), Frankfurt
has 93, for a population of only 760,000. But elections are always
staggered in Germany, I believe. We don't have that many levels, just
municipality, state, federal and Europe.

--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt

[Tony Cooper]

My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.

We could have changed the registration on-line.

I could also change my party affiliation on-line. (Or changed it to
no party affiliation)

Certain times of the year, when we are nearing an election, people can
register to vote at a library or many other places. There were
authorized people taking voter registrations at the universities in
the area.

[Peter Moylan]

And they say that Australia has too many politicians!

Our federal house of representatives has 151 members, so there are 151
federal electorates. The Senate uses a different system where an
electorate is an entire state, represented by 12 senators.

In NSW there are 47 state electorates. The boundaries of state
electorates do not necessarily coincide with the boundaries of federal
electorates.

When we vote, we are voting in a federal election OR a state election OR
a local municipal election. The dates of those three never coincide, as
far as I know, so there is never an election where we are voting for
both state and federal members. And, of course, we don't vote for things
like dog catchers.

In a federal election we are filling out just two ballot papers, one for
the house and one for the senate.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
scribeva:

> My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
> address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
> for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.

In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
there. Municipalities exchange the data when people move. For every
election, potential voters automatically get a card sent to their home
address so they can vote.

>applied
>for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.

Driver licenses do not contain an address, so no need for that here.

>We could have changed the registration on-line.
>
>I could also change my party affiliation on-line. (Or changed it to
>no party affiliation)

You mean the party people vote for or belong to is REGISTERED?
Unthinkable here. The EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation)
does not allow it. Publishing your vote on social media is
discouraged, because it could mean someone but pressure on you to vote
for a certain party or person, and the photo is proof.

>Certain times of the year, when we are nearing an election, people can
>register to vote at a library or many other places. There were
>authorized people taking voter registrations at the universities in
>the area.

Uncessary in NL, all automatic.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Peter Moylan]

On 02/05/22 15:29, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper
> <tonyco...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>> My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
>> address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we
>> applied for new driver's licenses because of the change in our
>> address.
>
> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
> because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
> there. Municipalities exchange the data when people move. For every
> election, potential voters automatically get a card sent to their
> home address so they can vote.

When I got married in Belgium I ran into the assumption that every
country does it that way. I had to supply a "certificat de domicile": an
official document specifying my nationality and current address, and
they wouldn't accept my statement that Australia doesn't have such a
thing. "Just ask for it at the town hall", they said. But the town hall
didn't know where I lived. "Then get it at the police station", they
said. Couldn't do that, because I didn't have a criminal record.

I thought I could solve the problem by asking the AEC (the body that
runs elections), because they do have my address. No luck there, either.
They could certify my registered address, but couldn't certify that I
was an Australian citizen, because of a grandfather clause that allows
some UK citizens to vote in Australia.

It took several months of back-and-forth mail to sort that out. I was
surprised to find Europeans, of all people, who didn't understand that
not all countries are the same.

[Janet]

In article <miqu6hpp2f3ir53jq...@4ax.com>, r...@rudhar.com
says...

>
> Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> scribeva:
> > My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
> > address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
> > for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>
> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
> because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
> there.

In the UK, not every resident is entitled to vote. YMMV

Those who are entitled to vote, are required to register on the
electoral roll.

From July each year Electoral Registration Offices (EROs) contact
households to check if the details on the electoral register are
correct. This is called the annual canvass.

https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register

Political Party membership in UK is entirely divorced from entries on
the Electoral Roll, the right to vote, and votes made.

I always vote, I've never registered as a member of any political
party. Tactical voting is widespread in UK.

https://tactical.vote/

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 1:29:14 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
> scribeva:

> > My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
> > address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
> > for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>
> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
> because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
> there. Municipalities exchange the data when people move. For every
> election, potential voters automatically get a card sent to their home
> address so they can vote.

That means you have those infamous "papers" you have to carry.

> >applied
> >for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
> Driver licenses do not contain an address, so no need for that here.

They're the de facto I.D. card. A "driver's license permitting driving
no class of vehicle" is a state I.D. card, used for identification
when needed.

> >We could have changed the registration on-line.
> >I could also change my party affiliation on-line. (Or changed it to
> >no party affiliation)
>
> You mean the party people vote for or belong to is REGISTERED?

In many states (in some, this has changed recently), only registered
party members can vote in that party's primary election, for the
candidate who will face the candidate of the other party in the
general election.

> Unthinkable here. The EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation)
> does not allow it. Publishing your vote on social media is

It is illegal in many places to do a selfie holding up your ballot paper,
because your vote is SECRET.

> discouraged, because it could mean someone but pressure on you to vote
> for a certain party or person, and the photo is proof.
>
> >Certain times of the year, when we are nearing an election, people can
> >register to vote at a library or many other places. There were
> >authorized people taking voter registrations at the universities in
> >the area.
>
> Uncessary in NL, all automatic.

Like Australia, yours is a tiny country.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 02 May 2022 07:29:08 +0200, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
wrote:

>Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
>scribeva:
>> My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
>> address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
>> for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>
>In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
>because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
>there. Municipalities exchange the data when people move. For every
>election, potential voters automatically get a card sent to their home
>address so they can vote.
>
>>applied
>>for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>
>Driver licenses do not contain an address, so no need for that here.
>
>>We could have changed the registration on-line.
>>
>>I could also change my party affiliation on-line. (Or changed it to
>>no party affiliation)
>
>You mean the party people vote for or belong to is REGISTERED?
>Unthinkable here. The EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation)
>does not allow it.

To "register", in the US, means to submit the necessary information to
become eligible to vote. It places the person on the rolls.

The "necessary information" is name, address, date of birth, and
either a party affiliation or independent (no party affiliation)
status. There is no requirement to vote for any or all of the
candidates of the party one is affiliated with by registration.

[CDB]

On 5/2/2022 7:04 AM, Janet wrote:
> r...@rudhar.com says...

Registering as a "party-supporter" in the US allows you to vote in the
primaries that determine who that party's candidate will be; it does not
commit you to vote for the candidate. Tony has long been a registered
Republican, but has said here that he has not voted for their candidate
for a long time.

[Tony Cooper]

Correct. Not for a Republican candidate for state or federal office.

I have voted for some Republican candidates for local (County)
offices. One in particular. The problem with supporting Democratic
candidates in any Florida election is that the state and county
Democratic party is so weak and ineffectual that no one with any
qualifications wants to run as a Democrat.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 2 May 2022 12:04:32 +0100: Janet <nob...@home.com> scribeva:

>In article <miqu6hpp2f3ir53jq...@4ax.com>, r...@rudhar.com
>says...
>>
>> Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
>> scribeva:
>> > My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
>> > address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
>> > for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>>
>> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
>> because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
>> there.
>
> In the UK, not every resident is entitled to vote. YMMV

Same here. They take that into account. There is a Kieswet, an
election law, that handles all that.

> Those who are entitled to vote, are required to register on the
>electoral roll.

Not necessary here, as I said.

>From July each year Electoral Registration Offices (EROs) contact
>households to check if the details on the electoral register are
>correct. This is called the annual canvass.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register
>
> Political Party membership in UK is entirely divorced from entries on
>the Electoral Roll, the right to vote, and votes made.

Same here.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 2 May 2022 09:08:03 -0400: CDB <belle...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On 5/2/2022 7:04 AM, Janet wrote:
>> r...@rudhar.com says...
>>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
>>>> My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
>>>> address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we
>>>> applied for new driver's licenses because of the change in our
>>>> address.
>
>>> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is
>>> necessary, because municipalities have a registration of the people
>>> who live there.
>
>> In the UK, not every resident is entitled to vote. YMMV
>
>> Those who are entitled to vote, are required to register on the
>> electoral roll.
>
>> From July each year Electoral Registration Offices (EROs) contact
>> households to check if the details on the electoral register are
>> correct. This is called the annual canvass.
>
>> https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register
>
>> Political Party membership in UK is entirely divorced from entries
>> on the Electoral Roll, the right to vote, and votes made.
>
>> I always vote, I've never registered as a member of any political
>> party. Tactical voting is widespread in UK.
>
>> https://tactical.vote/
>
>
>Registering as a "party-supporter" in the US allows you to vote in the
>primaries that determine who that party's candidate will be;

Yes, I know. I always perceived that as a bad practice. The French
system of two round voting is much better.

>it does not
>commit you to vote for the candidate. Tony has long been a registered
>Republican, but has said here that he has not voted for their candidate
>for a long time.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 2 May 2022 05:03:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 1:29:14 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Sun, 01 May 2022 11:15:41 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com>
>> scribeva:
>
>> > My wife and I changed our voter registration to reflect our new
>> > address at the DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles) office when we applied
>> > for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>>
>> In the Netherlands where I live, no voter registration is necessary,
>> because municipalities have a registration of the people who live
>> there. Municipalities exchange the data when people move. For every
>> election, potential voters automatically get a card sent to their home
>> address so they can vote.
>
>That means you have those infamous "papers" you have to carry.

Electronic voting would be much better. But they never managed to make
it 1. safe 2. secret. 3 traceable enough. Or reproducible, is probably
a better word. Recountable.

>> >applied
>> >for new driver's licenses because of the change in our address.
>> Driver licenses do not contain an address, so no need for that here.
>
>They're the de facto I.D. card. A "driver's license permitting driving
>no class of vehicle" is a state I.D. card, used for identification
>when needed.

For voting, you need to present that paper card, and an ID card,
passport or driver's license here.

>> >We could have changed the registration on-line.
>> >I could also change my party affiliation on-line. (Or changed it to
>> >no party affiliation)
>>
>> You mean the party people vote for or belong to is REGISTERED?
>
>In many states (in some, this has changed recently), only registered
>party members can vote in that party's primary election, for the
>candidate who will face the candidate of the other party in the
>general election.
>
>> Unthinkable here. The EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation)
>> does not allow it. Publishing your vote on social media is
>
>It is illegal in many places to do a selfie holding up your ballot paper,
>because your vote is SECRET.

That's what I meant to write, but my English writing skills "left me
in the stake" at the time. Lieten me in de steek. "My English language
skills let me down.", says Google Translate.

>> discouraged, because it could mean someone but pressure on you to vote
>> for a certain party or person, and the photo is proof.
>>
>> >Certain times of the year, when we are nearing an election, people can
>> >register to vote at a library or many other places. There were
>> >authorized people taking voter registrations at the universities in
>> >the area.
>>
>> Uncessary in NL, all automatic.
>
>Like Australia, yours is a tiny country.

It is, in terms of population size. Almost 18 million, versus
something like 22, I think. AU 25,991,100, CA 38,526,760, NL
17,717,000, Wikipedia thinks it knows are the 2022 estimates.

[Lewis]

In message <oq0r6h9946f2g9cmb...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your map of Florida omits Tampa and the surrounding counties? The
> those-of-Cuban-descents in that area are mostly third- and
> fourth-generation, though, and less of a voting bloc. Still, there
> are about 80,000 in Tampa, and that's a lot of votes to go after.

The conservative Rah-Rah Republican Cubans tend to be in Miami. The
TreasonParty does not care about the rest of them, and considers them
scum, just like anyone else with maybe somewhat darker skin.

--
Advance and attack! Attack and destroy! Destroy and rejoice!

[Lewis]

In message <hnvq6hha6gbfr1rlr...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:18:46 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>>In message <t4i5s5$65s$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 29/04/22 23:16, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 29/04/2022 1:52 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>>> Who wouldn't believe anything said about a state that won't allow a
>>>>> school to use a math textbook that encourages childrens to get
>>>>> along with each other.
>>>>
>>>> Shouldn't that stuff be in the Getting Along With Each Other
>>>> textbook? Putting it in the Mathematics textbook means either less
>>>> room for teaching mathematical skills (so less fit for purpose) or a
>>>> bigger book (so more expensive). I suppose these getting along with
>>>> each other skills are being shoehorned into Physics books and
>>>> Chemistry books and French books and Economics books, making them all
>>>> either less fit for purpose or more expensive? What a bloody stupid
>>>> idea!
>>
>>> The impression I got from an upthread discussion is that the people
>>> criticising these books are refusing to say which books they are talking
>>> about, making their claims impossible to check.
>>
>>they are also refusing to say WHY the books they are banning fail their
>>'test'. Or say anything at all.
>>
>>It's all bullshit posturing by the TreasonParty in their effort to
>>spread disinformation and instill a sense of panic, hoping that they mange
>>to keep enough power until they can try again to overthrow the
>>government. This time they will have a better plan.

> You do offer some over-the-top opinions.

> I agree it's posturing, but discount the rest of your description.

Yeah, like when I said in 2000 that the GOP would stage a coup, and that
the illegal appointment of Bush was just the start.

Yeah, that was sure over the top, huh?

To be fair, I did not predict that the President of the United State
would try to have his VP murdered, but I also cannot say I was at all
surprised when that happened.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but what would Pippi Longstocking look like with
her hair straight?"

[CDB]

On 5/2/2022 10:17 AM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> scribeva:

Are the candidates in France or the Netherlands nominated by party
members, as they are in the British (and Canadian) system? In the US,
anyone can present themself as a candidate in the primaries, and the
registered voters choose which of them is to represent their (pl) party.