Target - 'tar-get' or 'tar-jay' ?

[occam]

In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.

A google search says:

"Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
Target's fashions were chic but affordable."


Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
behalf of the Target marketing group?

[Peter Moylan]

It's a commonly-used joke here, but it's not the chain's name.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[bil...@shaw.ca]

We have Target stores here in Western Canada. That's Tar-get, not
Tar-jay or Tar-gay. Often found in the same building as Winners stores.

bill

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam wrote:

> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>
>
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

Wikipedia has an article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation

Text-search for "pronun".

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Hibou]

Ha! Cod French. (The French word for target is 'cible'.)

[Janet]

In article <kk8g2v...@mid.individual.net>,
oc...@nowhere.nix says...

or Hyacinth Bucket.

Janet

[Snidely]

On Thursday, occam yelped out that:

It's a widely used joking pronunciation that's been around since at
least 1987. My then-wife used it on occasion, and I've heard it from
other people since then (and have used it myself).

As far as I know, it hasn't been used in a Target ad, and the corporate
symbol is a simplified target (red dot centered in a red ring).

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

[occam]

On 18/08/2023 09:16, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>  occam wrote:
>
>> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
>> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
>> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>>
>>
>> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
>> behalf of the Target marketing group?
>
> Wikipedia has an article:
>
>       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation
>

Fron the web page:

"Targét
Some people jokingly give Target the pseudo-French pronunciation
/tɑːrˈʒeɪ/ tar-ZHAY, as though it were an upscale boutique.[130][131]
Though this practice is often attributed to Oprah Winfrey's usage on her
television show, it is first attested in 1962, the year the first Target
store opened."




>

[Peter T. Daniels]

It was a gay thing in Chicago in the 1970s, when they positioned themselves
as a step above K-Mart. (And it's "tar-ZHAY.") That was before Walmart was
even in the suburbs.

Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
known as the noo-zhay d'or.

[Peter Moylan]

On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")

You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 5:40:00 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

That's so people can tell it's French.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

And so French people can tell it isn't.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
last syllable.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Peter Moylan]

On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>
>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> last syllable.

That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's different
from what your native language does, there's a tendency to hear stuff,
like stresses, that isn't there. We force foreign words into
pigeon-holes that fit our preconceptions.

English speakers often think that Japanese people say 'r' when it should
be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using an intermediate
consonant that doesn't occur in English.

P.S. It's probably not all Americans.

[Hibou]

Le 19/08/2023 à 07:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>
>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> last syllable.

IncroyABLE !

(Or one can click on the little loudspeaker:

<https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/incroyable>)

[Bebercito]

noo-gay would have been more adequate.

[Bebercito]

Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >
> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>
> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >>
> >> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
> >
> > Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> > unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> > last syllable.
> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's different
> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to hear stuff,
> like stresses, that isn't there.

There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French. Spanish is
well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
"ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
Spanish -mán:

https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:

> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
>> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
>> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
>> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
>> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
>> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
>> > last syllable.
>> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
>> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
>> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
>
> There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.

Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't

in French.

> Spanish is
> well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
> "ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
> the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
> Spanish -mán:
>
> https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
> https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/
>
>
>> We force foreign words into> pigeon-holes that fit our
>> preconceptions.>> English speakers often think that Japanese people say
>> 'r' when it should> be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using
>> an intermediate> consonant that doesn't occur in English.>> P.S. It's
>> probably not all Americans.
>> --
>> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org> Newcastle, NSW

[Bebercito]

Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
>
> > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
> >> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> >> > last syllable.
> >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> >
> > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.
> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> in French.

But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

[occam]

Oui! Incroyable et inacceptable!

https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/inacceptable

(don't think much of M. Le Robert's diction. It is almost unacceptable.)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 7:55:38 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> > On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
> >
> > > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> > >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
> > >> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> > >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> > >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> > >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> > >> > last syllable.
> > >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> > >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> > >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> > >
> > > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.

> > Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> > in French.

> But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
> English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

Not only that, it's a joke. When I've heard "tarZHAY", there's been no
attempt at a French pronunciation of the <r> or anything else.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke. I've never
heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's transcription suggests
that even the people who could speak French weren't attempting a French
"u" there.

Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more adequate"
"Adequate" suggests that there's a criterion that something meets, but
there's no criterion for anglicized French that's anywhere near "noo-zhay"
or "noo-gay". "Careful writers" probably don't use "more adequate" at all,
as something is either adequate or not.

--
Jerry Friedman

[musika]

On 19/08/2023 15:07, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:10:26 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
>> :

>>> Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants
>>> around the city called Golden Nugget (at some point they became
>>> independent and each took a name that was similar). The one in
>>> the main gay neighborhood was known as the noo-zhay d'or.
>
>> noo-gay would have been more adequate.
>
> Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke.
>

So was Bebe's comment.

> I've never heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's
> transcription suggests that even the people who could speak French
> weren't attempting a French "u" there.
>
> Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more
> adequate"

I think he meant apposite. It was in a gay community after all.

--
Ray
UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 7:40:00 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

Prsumably most of the people who used the pronunciation never
studied French, but they know from Maurice Chevalier and Charles
Boyer movies what a French accent sounds like in English.

(I don't think I've heard Depardieu speak, and Louis Jourdain uses
a sort of mid-Atlantic accent in English, so he's no help.)

How many times do I have to repeat that

Just because stress is not phonemic in French -- so native speakers
don't notice it -- there is in fact stress at the end of every breath-group

?

(Just as aspiration of stops is not phonemic in English, but if you omit
it, everyone knows you're not a native speaker.)

("Breath-group" is the term R. A. Hall Jr. used in his *French: A Structural
Sketch* [1948] to avoid using "word," which is not useful in French, where
all the little enclitics and such are written between spaces but are not
independent of what they go with -- they're part of the "breath group.")

Incidentally, if you've worked very hard to not put any stress anywhere
in a French breath-group, you will be perceived as having a, perhaps
unidentifiable, foreign accent.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 8:59:48 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 10:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 5:40:00 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
> > That's so people can tell it's French.
>
> And so French people can tell it isn't.

How are the Paris Target stores pronounced?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 2:36:40 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> > On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> > You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> last syllable.

That is about the zillionth time you have repeated that.

Where did "heavy" come from?

Why do you and PM refuse to believe that nonphonemic stress is
as common in French as it is in Polish or Hungarian? (Penultimate
]in the former, initial in the latter.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:44:06 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 19/08/2023 à 07:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> > On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
> > Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> > unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> > last syllable.
>
> IncroyABLE !

That's incroYAble. Clean your ears.

> (Or one can click on the little loudspeaker:
>
> <https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/incroyable>)

Interesting. She has greater stress on the in- than on the -ab-.

(If you don't believe it, do a sound-spectrogram.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

There's nothing French-like about [g], but [Z] is very French.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 9:35:15 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
> > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
> >> Daniels wrote:> >>

[As usual, it was Athel who screwed up the line breaks]

> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> >> > last syllable.
> >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.

See, when you talk about French, you speak the truth.

> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> in French.

And you have been corrected on that canard so many times that
every time you repeat it, it is simply a lie.

> > Spanish is
> > well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
> > "ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
> > the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
> > Spanish -mán:
> >
> > https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
> > https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/

That's because in Spanish, stress is phonemic.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 9:55:38 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> > On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
> > > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> > >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
> > >> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> > >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> > >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> > >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> > >> > last syllable.
> > >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> > >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> > >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> > > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.
> > Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> > in French.
>
> But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
> English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

Did you notice that at the end of my message -- which you kindly
quoted in full -- I noted that "Golden Nugget" was rendered, in the
same community, as "noo-zhay d'or" -- indicating even stress on the
three syllables?

[Peter T. Daniels]

That would be code-switching mid-word!

> Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more adequate"
> "Adequate" suggests that there's a criterion that something meets, but
> there's no criterion for anglicized French that's anywhere near "noo-zhay"
> or "noo-gay". "Careful writers" probably don't use "more adequate" at all,
> as something is either adequate or not.

bebe... has used "adequate" for "appropriate" before. I suspect a faux ami

[Jerry Friedman]

Ah, j'étais whooché.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 9:00:30 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:10:26 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

...

> > > > Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
> > > > called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
> > > > took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
> > > > known as the noo-zhay d'or.
> > > noo-gay would have been more adequate.
> >
> > Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke. I've never
> > heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's transcription suggests
> > that even the people who could speak French weren't attempting a French
> > "u" there.

> That would be code-switching mid-word!

> > Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more adequate"
> > "Adequate" suggests that there's a criterion that something meets, but
> > there's no criterion for anglicized French that's anywhere near "noo-zhay"
> > or "noo-gay". "Careful writers" probably don't use "more adequate" at all,
> > as something is either adequate or not.

> bebe... has used "adequate" for "appropriate" before. I suspect a faux ami

Como siempre, pero en este caso será un falso amigo.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-08-19 13:55:32 +0000, Bebercito said:

> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:>> > Le samedi 19 août
>> 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :> >> On 19/08/23 16:36,
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18> >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter
>> Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.> >> Daniels wrote:> >>>
>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use> >> final-syllable stress
>> even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not> >> really. Americans,
>> even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >> >> unshakeable conviction
>> that all French words have heavy stress on the>> >> > last syllable.>
>> >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's> >>
>> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to>
>> >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.> >> > There is indeed
>> stress on the final syllable of words in French.
>> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
>> in French.
>
> But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
> English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

By listening to Americans.

[Peter T. Daniels]

With English ears.

He was asking how else you would _notate_ it.

[Bebercito]

Correct.

>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

[Bebercito]

Correct.

[lar3ryca]

я також

--
Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on
the roof and gets stuck.

[Silvano]

Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 19.08.2023 um 15:35 geschrieben:

> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
>> There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.
>
> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> in French.

It depends very much on your definition of _heavy_ stress. After being
called Silvanó in France I tend to call it a very heavy stress.

P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent
like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native
language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.

[lar3ryca]

Interesting. How is your surname stressed?
I would have said it sil-VAN-o.
My sole Italian experience was a 6-week TD (Temorary Duty) in Sardinia.

[lar3ryca]

On 2023-08-19 01:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>>
>>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>>
>> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
>> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
>>  last syllable.
>
> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's different
> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to hear stuff,

> like stresses, that isn't there. We force foreign words into

> pigeon-holes that fit our preconceptions.
>
> English speakers often think that Japanese people say 'r' when it should
> be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using an intermediate
> consonant that doesn't occur in English.

Do Japanese words have any stress at all? Most Japanese I've heard souns
like they have no stress at all.

A Chinese man tells his sone that he goes to a certain restaurant every
day, and on Fridays, the owner asks him, "Hey Wong, what day is it
today?", and when he says, "It Fliday", everyone laughs.

The son coaches his father in an attempt to have him say "Friday".

The next Friday, Wong goes into the restaurant, and the owner asks "Hey
Wong, what day is it?"

Wong glares back at the owner and says "It FRIDAY, you Gleek Plick!"

> P.S. It's probably not all Americans.

--

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:27:22 PM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2023-08-19 01:07, Peter Moylan wrote:

> > English speakers often think that Japanese people say 'r' when it should
> > be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using an intermediate
> > consonant that doesn't occur in English.
>
> Do Japanese words have any stress at all? Most Japanese I've heard souns
> like they have no stress at all.

Japanese has pitch-accent rather than stress-accent.

Presumably he adjusted his Cone of Silence to re-exclude my messages,
so he'll never learn that fact.

[Silvano]

lar3ryca hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:17 geschrieben:

> On 2023-08-19 13:58, Silvano wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 19.08.2023 um 15:35 geschrieben:
>>> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
>>>> There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.
>>>
>>> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
>>> in French.
>>
>>
>> It depends very much on your definition of _heavy_ stress. After being
>> called Silvanó in France I tend to call it a very heavy stress.
>>
>> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent
>> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native
>> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
>
> Interesting. How is your surname stressed?
> I would have said it sil-VAN-o.

YOU would say so and I do too, but we are not French.

[Jerry Friedman]

Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Actually it seems it could be both. "Adéquat" and "adecuado" both mean
"appropriate" and similar things, not "adequate". For some reason I knew
the Spanish word but not the French one.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Silvano]

Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:

Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.

A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.

[Peter Moylan]

Yes, on the last syllable of a phrase. If tarzhay (pretending it's a
French word) came earlier in the phrase, you wouldn't hear any stress.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[Peter T. Daniels]

I did not know that. (Hence "suspect.")

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:15:57 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/08/23 00:43, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 2:36:40 AM UTC-4, Athel
> > Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's
> >>> weird.
> >>
> >> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on
> >> the last syllable.
> >
> > That is about the zillionth time you have repeated that.
> >
> > Where did "heavy" come from?
> >
> > Why do you and PM refuse to believe that nonphonemic stress is as
> > common in French as it is in Polish or Hungarian? (Penultimate ]in
> > the former, initial in the latter.)
>
Yes, on the last syllable of a phrase.

of a breath-group -- smaller than a phrase

> If tarzhay (pretending it's a
> French word) came earlier in the phrase, you wouldn't hear any stress.

Can you construct an example where it isn't at the end of a
breath-group?

(Note that the post-clitics complicate it a bit -- "Sonnez-la!" 'ring it
[the bell]' is [s@'ne.la].

[Bebercito]

Certains magasins ne sont pas ouverts aujourd'hui. *Target l'est*.

[Bebercito]

Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 15:47:16 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:59:24 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 9:13:26 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 9:00:30 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:10:26 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > > > Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
> > > > > > > Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
> > > > > > > called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
> > > > > > > took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
> > > > > > > known as the noo-zhay d'or.
> > > > > > noo-gay would have been more adequate.
> > > > > Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke. I've never
> > > > > heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's transcription suggests
> > > > > that even the people who could speak French weren't attempting a French
> > > > > "u" there.
> > > > That would be code-switching mid-word!
> > > > > Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more adequate"
> > > > > "Adequate" suggests that there's a criterion that something meets, but
> > > > > there's no criterion for anglicized French that's anywhere near "noo-zhay"
> > > > > or "noo-gay". "Careful writers" probably don't use "more adequate" at all,
> > > > > as something is either adequate or not.
> > > > bebe... has used "adequate" for "appropriate" before. I suspect a faux ami
> > > Como siempre,

? Otros ejemplos, por favor.

[Peter T. Daniels]

TAINS SINS VERTS HUI (I don't know how to pronounce "Target l'est" in
French -- maybe the "l'est" syllable cliticizes.)

[Jerry Friedman]

...

He always suspects that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bebercito]

Sorry, I thought you meant I always use faux amis in English.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

[Bebercito]

(That was just for context.)

(I don't know how to pronounce "Target l'est"

Tarzhay* lé.

*Since that's the assumed French pronunciation, but actually, the French
pronounce it /target/ (hard g and è vowel in -get).

[Peter Moylan]

Well, that depends on how you define a breath-group. But in "Je suis
allé au Target hier", the final stress is definitely on the "hier".

> (Note that the post-clitics complicate it a bit -- "Sonnez-la!" 'ring it
> [the bell]' is [s@'ne.la].

With stress on the the "la".

[Jerry Friedman]

Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16?PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:

> > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58?PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> > >> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent
> > >> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native
> > >> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
> > >
> > > Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
> > > say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.
>
> > Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
> > correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
> > over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
> >
> > A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
>
> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.

Like Vaterland?

Jan
(ducks)

[charles]

In article <f3a8c8f4-1525-4cb8...@googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:

> > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> > >> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent

> > >> like Calņ or Foą, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native

> > >> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
> > >
> > > Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
> > > say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.

> > Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
> > correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
> > over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
> >
> > A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.

> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.

And there were also the V1 & the V2.

> --
> Je

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Peter T. Daniels]

Here's Hall's definition:

1.62. THE BREATH-GROUP is the minimum unit in which intonation
patterns are phonemically significant.

(Helpful, no? But he uses it so ,much that the meaning becomes clear.)
If you can get at an academic library (or the National Library?), it was a
Supplement to *Language* in 1948 and is included in JSTOR.

> But in "Je suis
> allé au Target hier", the final stress is definitely on the "hier".

Well, now you complicate it with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet" -- which
are both lousy terms.

[Snidely]

Remember when J. J. Lodder bragged outrageously? That was Sunday:

Effing better duck, since that's an effing eff to English ears.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

[Snidely]

charles explained :

> In article <f3a8c8f4-1525-4cb8...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:
>>>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>>>>> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent

>>>>> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native

>>>>> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
>>>>
>>>> Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
>>>> say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.
>
>>> Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
>>> correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
>>> over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
>>>
>>> A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
>
>> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.
>
> And there were also the V1 & the V2.

"Vee" or "Fau" ? (vau-zwei, except when A2)

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

[Bebercito]

Whether the h is aspiré or muet doesn't make any difference here.

> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"

"h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism) and masculine
(no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for "muet" (feminine is
"muette").

> -- which are both lousy terms.

"Muet" is quite suitable as it's the regular translation of "silent" in linguistics.
"H aspiré" OTOH is not accurate as no aspiration occurs for its realization.
However, in the lack of a better term, it's still useful to indicate the words with
which the liaison and elision must be avoided. For instance, "hauteur" ("height")
has an aspirated h, but when isolated is pronounced exactly like "auteur" ("author").
However, when uttered after another word, it's often pronounced with an initial
glottal stop, so that for instance "une [ʔ]hauteur" can be differentiated from "une
auteure" (a female author). (Would that be called "phonemic"?)

[Silvano]

Jerry Friedman hat am 20.08.2023 um 18:55 geschrieben:

> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16 PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>> A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
>
> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.

I read some wrong comments, so let me try a better explanation.
In German, a written "v" is usually pronounced "fau" in Indo-Germanic
words (Vater, voll, the prefixes ver- and vor- and 1,000s more), but
"vee" in imported words (evangelisch, Vase, Vanille, Vokal, Vakuum and
many more).

[Peter T. Daniels]

I was writing in English.

> (no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for "muet" (feminine is
> "muette").

Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.

<muet> is more salient than <aspiré> -- which actually looks a bit bare.

> > -- which are both lousy terms.
>
> "Muet" is quite suitable as it's the regular translation of "silent" in linguistics.
> "H aspiré" OTOH is not accurate as no aspiration occurs for its realization.
> However, in the lack of a better term, it's still useful to indicate the words with
> which the liaison and elision must be avoided. For instance, "hauteur" ("height")
> has an aspirated h, but when isolated is pronounced exactly like "auteur" ("author").
> However, when uttered after another word, it's often pronounced with an initial
> glottal stop, so that for instance "une [ʔ]hauteur" can be differentiated from "une
> auteure" (a female author). (Would that be called "phonemic"?)

Of course.

The <h> is just as "mute" as the one in a word with a muet.

So, how do you pronounce "au Target hier"?

[Phil Carmody]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> writes:
> In article <f3a8c8f4-1525-4cb8...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>> > Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:
>> > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>> > >> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent

>> > >> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native

>> > >> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
>> > >
>> > > Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
>> > > say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.
>
>> > Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
>> > correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
>> > over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
>> >
>> > A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
>
>> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.
>
> And there were also the V1 & the V2.

Talking about such top secret stuff was verboten.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

[Bebercito]

No, that would work if you said "la lettre h" in full, not just "h".
On a different note, "félidés" (felidae), for instance, is masculine, but
"panthère" (panther) is feminine, etc.

>
> <muet> is more salient than <aspiré> -- which actually looks a bit bare.

?

> > > -- which are both lousy terms.
> >
> > "Muet" is quite suitable as it's the regular translation of "silent" in linguistics.
> > "H aspiré" OTOH is not accurate as no aspiration occurs for its realization.
> > However, in the lack of a better term, it's still useful to indicate the words with
> > which the liaison and elision must be avoided. For instance, "hauteur" ("height")
> > has an aspirated h, but when isolated is pronounced exactly like "auteur" ("author").
> > However, when uttered after another word, it's often pronounced with an initial
> > glottal stop, so that for instance "une [ʔ]hauteur" can be differentiated from "une
> > auteure" (a female author). (Would that be called "phonemic"?)
> Of course.
>
> The <h> is just as "mute" as the one in a word with a muet.

True, but as I've said, it can be realized with a glottal stop, which is audible, in some
cases.

>
> So, how do you pronounce "au Target hier"?

[otarget,jer]

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 08:36:40 +0200, Silvano
<Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>Jerry Friedman hat am 20.08.2023 um 18:55 geschrieben:

>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16?PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
>>> A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
>>
>> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.
>
>
>I read some wrong comments, so let me try a better explanation.
>In German, a written "v" is usually pronounced "fau" in Indo-Germanic
>words (Vater, voll, the prefixes ver- and vor- and 1,000s more), but
>"vee" in imported words (evangelisch, Vase, Vanille, Vokal, Vakuum and
>many more).

Reminds me of a lame joke.

Two guys on a plane flying to Hawaii, one of them is a German, and the
other is an American.

The American asks the German, "Excuse me, but how do you pronounce the
name, Hawaii or Havaii?"

The German replies, "Havaii".

American: "Thank you!"

German: "You're velcome!"

[J. J. Lodder]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Remember when J. J. Lodder bragged outrageously? That was Sunday:
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16?PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >>> Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:
> >>>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58?PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >>>>> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent
> >>>>> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native
> >>>>> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
> >>>> say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.
> >>> Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
> >>> correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
> >>> over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
> >>>
> >>> A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
> >>
> >> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.
> >
> > Like Vaterland?
> >
> > Jan
> > (ducks)
>
> Effing better duck, since that's an effing eff to English ears.

Yes, by Americanised Germans,

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
>>
>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism) and masculine
>
> I was writing in English.
>
>> (no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for "muet" (feminine is
>> "muette").
>
> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
> term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.

Is that a rule in French? I've never heard of it.

[Silvano]

Peter Moylan hat am 22.08.2023 um 01:49 geschrieben:

FWIW, let me copy.
h, n.m. ou f. (masculine or feminine noun) ...
h muet, simple signe graphique qui ne correspond à aucune modification
dans la prononciation

My source is "Le petit Robert", one of the most authoritative French
dictionaries.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Neither have I. More important, neither have the compilers of Nouveau
Larousse Encyclopédique, in which the very first line (out of many many
thousands) reads

> A. n.m. inv. -1. Première lettre de l'alphabet,

Many pages later (p. 731 in my edition), we find

> Si l'h est muet, il y a élision ou liaison : l'homme ; les hommes. Si
> l'h est aspiré ...

So not only does the supposed rule not apply generally; it doesn't even
apply to the specific case invoked. It's a nonsense rule.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Hibou]

Le 21/08/2023 à 15:48, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
> term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.

N'importe quoi (nonsense) ! Un h, la lettre h.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=ajouter+un+e%2Cajouter+une+e&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=fr-2019&smoothing=3>

D'ailleurs (besides)...

« /La/ Loire est, avec une longueur de 1 006 kilomètres, /le/ plus long
fleuve s'écoulant entièrement en France » (my emphasis) -
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire>

[Hibou]

There is a problem in that superordinate terms can be of different
genders: is h une lettre or un caractère? Is flowing water un fleuve or
une rivière? Is a car une voiture or un SUV (un véhicule)?...

Une Citroën C4, un Citroën C5 Aircross -
<https://pdlv.fr/2020/09/20/votre-voiture-a-t-elle-un-nom-masculin-et-feminin-100-modeles-references/>

(When even the French need help, it's an appropriate moment for despair.)

[J. J. Lodder]

Phil Carmody <pc+u...@asdf.org> wrote:

> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> writes:
> > In article <f3a8c8f4-1525-4cb8...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:23:16#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >> > Jerry Friedman hat am 19.08.2023 um 22:56 geschrieben:
> >> > > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 1:58:58#PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> >> > >> P.S. My surname, like all surnames in Italy without a written accent
> >> > >> like Calò or Foà, is NOT stressed on the last syllable in my native
> >> > >> language. But everyone in France says it as if it were.
> >> > >
> >> > > Since you live in Germany, I've occasionally wondered how Germans
> >> > > say your name--with an /s/ and a /v/, or a /z/ and an /f/.
> >
> >> > Definitely with a /z/ before I correct them, and sometimes even after I
> >> > correct them, especially older acquaintances. Usually I give up. People
> >> > over 80 will probably not live for decades anyway.
> >> >
> >> > A /v/ is not a problem to most Germans: Vase, Vanille usw.
> >
> >> Thanks, I didn't know about those German V words.
> >
> > And there were also the V1 & the V2.
>
> Talking about such top secret stuff was verboten.

Why? Hitler himself ranted about his V-waffen all the time,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

I've heard of it for proper nouns in a class, e.g., "une voiture"
therefore "une Renault".


--
svn ci -m 'come back make, all is forgiven!' build.xml

[Peter Moylan]

That raises another question in my mind. I would expect

Si l'h est muet ... (OK)
but
Si le h est aspiré ...

to be consistent with what I know about h aspiré.

Anyway, that's a side issue.

I was surprised by Silvano's saying that 'h', as a noun, could be
masculine or feminine, but he quoted an impeccable source.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I wondered that as well, but I expect Larousse knows better than I do.

>
> Anyway, that's a side issue.
>
> I was surprised by Silvano's saying that 'h', as a noun, could be
> masculine or feminine, but he quoted an impeccable source.


--

[Peter Moylan]

On 22/08/23 17:42, Silvano wrote:

> FWIW, let me copy. h, n.m. ou f. (masculine or feminine noun) ... h
> muet, simple signe graphique qui ne correspond à aucune modification
> dans la prononciation
>
> My source is "Le petit Robert", one of the most authoritative French
> dictionaries.

That sent me looking at other sources. I'm only halfway through the
alphabet so far, but it's starting to look as if every letter but one is
masculine in French. The sole exception is h, which is bisexual.

Atilf explains it all. The entry for h starts with

H, h, subst.

while those for other letters say subst. masc. Further down, we find
this note.

<quote>
Rem. Les lettres dont le nom se termine en -e sont traditionnellement du
genre fém. H, « ache », subst. fém. ds Ac. à ce jour; masc. ou fém. ds
ROB., DAVAU-COHEN 1972; masc. ds DUB., Lar. Lang. fr., Lexis 1975. Il
est d'autre part masc. sous la désignation he [], ds Ac. 1762-1878 et
ailleurs.
</quote>

Executive summary: some authorities say it can be feminine, others don't.

I'd love to be able to report that it has one gender when mute and the
other when aspirated, but sadly this is not true.

[Bebercito]

That raises the question of how the name of the letter h would be spelled
if written out in full, which I haven't been able to find an answer to.
Both "le h" and "l'h" are found, but one shouldn't shift between them
depending on whether the h is silent or aspirated, as the issue is only about
the pronunciation of the name of the letter, not on the effects in terms of
liaison and elision of the h being silent or aspirated.

[Bebercito]

Le mardi 22 août 2023 à 14:04:59 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 22/08/23 17:42, Silvano wrote:
>
> > FWIW, let me copy. h, n.m. ou f. (masculine or feminine noun) ... h
> > muet, simple signe graphique qui ne correspond à aucune modification
> > dans la prononciation
> >
> > My source is "Le petit Robert", one of the most authoritative French
> > dictionaries.
> That sent me looking at other sources. I'm only halfway through the
> alphabet so far, but it's starting to look as if every letter but one is
> masculine in French. The sole exception is h, which is bisexual.
>
> Atilf explains it all. The entry for h starts with
>
> H, h, subst.
>
> while those for other letters say subst. masc. Further down, we find
> this note.
>
> <quote>
> Rem. Les lettres dont le nom se termine en -e sont traditionnellement du
> genre fém. H, « ache »,

That's interesting, because if h is indeed written out in full as "ache", one
should always say "l'h" and not "le h".

[Peter T. Daniels]

River names, I think, was the standard example.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:59:47 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-08-21 23:49:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

> >>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
> >>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism) and masculine
> >> I was writing in English.
> >>> (no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for "muet" (feminine is
> >>> "muette").
> >> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
> >> term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.
> > Is that a rule in French? I've never heard of it.
>
> Neither have I. More important, neither have the compilers of Nouveau
> Larousse Encyclopédique, in which the very first line (out of many many
> thousands) reads
>
> > A. n.m. inv. -1. Première lettre de l'alphabet,
>
> Many pages later (p. 731 in my edition), we find

Golly, is it organized alphabetically?

> > Si l'h est muet, il y a élision ou liaison : l'homme ; les hommes. Si
> > l'h est aspiré ...
>
> So not only does the supposed rule not apply generally; it doesn't even
> apply to the specific case invoked. It's a nonsense rule.

Did you bother to look at the entry quoted by Silvano from Le
Petit Robert, "h, n.m. ou f. "? (He kindly provided a translation
in case you couldn't figure out all those pesky abbreviations.)

[Bebercito]

Le mardi 22 août 2023 à 16:25:39 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:59:47 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-08-21 23:49:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >
> > > On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > >>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
> > >>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
> > >>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism) and masculine
> > >> I was writing in English.
> > >>> (no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for "muet" (feminine is
> > >>> "muette").
> > >> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
> > >> term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.
> > > Is that a rule in French? I've never heard of it.
> >
> > Neither have I. More important, neither have the compilers of Nouveau
> > Larousse Encyclopédique, in which the very first line (out of many many
> > thousands) reads
> >
> > > A. n.m. inv. -1. Première lettre de l'alphabet,
> >
> > Many pages later (p. 731 in my edition), we find
> Golly, is it organized alphabetically?
> > > Si l'h est muet, il y a élision ou liaison : l'homme ; les hommes. Si
> > > l'h est aspiré ...
> >
> > So not only does the supposed rule not apply generally; it doesn't even
> > apply to the specific case invoked. It's a nonsense rule.

Not at all. If, as Le Robert says, "h" is written out in full as "ache" (and
not "hache"), then writing both "l'h est muet" and "l'h est aspiré" quite
makes sense.

[Peter Moylan]

That wasn't the rule in question. The claim, as seen above, was

"Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate term
-- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine. "

(But nobody has yet agreed with it, and numerous counterexamples exist.)

[Bebercito]

Le mercredi 23 août 2023 à 01:36:03 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 23/08/23 02:28, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le mardi 22 août 2023 à 16:25:39 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:59:47 AM UTC-4, Athel
> >> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2023-08-21 23:49:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >>>
> >>>> On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42 PM UTC-4, Bebercito
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
> >>>>>> a écrit :
> >>
> >>>>>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
> >>>>>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism)
> >>>>>> and masculine
> >>>>> I was writing in English.

Then the hyphen was unjustified.

> >>>>>> (no -e). But oddly enough, you used the masculine for
> >>>>>> "muet" (feminine is "muette").
> >>>>> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the
> >>>>> superordinate term -- la lettre, so the letters should be
> >>>>> feminine.
> >>>> Is that a rule in French? I've never heard of it.
> >>>
> >>> Neither have I. More important, neither have the compilers of
> >>> Nouveau Larousse Encyclopédique, in which the very first line
> >>> (out of many many thousands) reads
> >>>
> >>>> A. n.m. inv. -1. Première lettre de l'alphabet,
> >>>
> >>> Many pages later (p. 731 in my edition), we find
> >> Golly, is it organized alphabetically?
> >>>> Si l'h est muet, il y a élision ou liaison : l'homme ; les
> >>>> hommes. Si l'h est aspiré ...
> >>>
> >>> So not only does the supposed rule not apply generally; it
> >>> doesn't even apply to the specific case invoked. It's a nonsense
> >>> rule.
> >
> > Not at all. If, as Le Robert says, "h" is written out in full as
> > "ache" (and not "hache"), then writing both "l'h est muet" and "l'h
> > est aspiré" quite makes sense.
> That wasn't the rule in question. The claim, as seen above, was
> "Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate term
> -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine. "
> (But nobody has yet agreed with it, and numerous counterexamples exist.)

I've reread the thread and still understand Athel's "nonsense rule" as
referring to "l'h est muet" and "l'h est aspiré", but maybe he will clarify
this.

[Jerry Friedman]

I agree with Peter Moylan. The supposed rule was that members of a class
take the gender of the superordinate term, and the masculine adjectives
"muet" and "aspiré" were Athel's evidence against it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Hibou]

I can't find a reliable source for such a rule in the case of rivers,
but there are these statements:

« Or les noms de rivières, sauf erreur, sont féminins, tandis que les
noms de fleuves sont masculins.
- Faux. / Noms de fleuves féminins : la Charente, la Garonne, la Loire,
la Meuse, la Seine, la Somme, la Tamise, la Vistule, la Volga etc. /
Noms de rivières masculins : l'Ain, l'Allier, l'Arc, le Cher, le Doubs,
le Drac, l'Escaut, l'Inn, le Loir, le Lot, le Main, le Verdon etc. » -
<http://projetbabel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7942>

This is an assertion that there is such a rule, opposed by a list of
many exceptions.

« Les noms de rivières et de fleuves sont, selon l'usage, de l'un ou
l'autre genre. La Meuse - le Rhône. EN CAS DE DOUTE : UNE VERIFICATION
DANS LE DICTIONNAIRE S'IMPOSE ! » (emphasis is in the source) -
<https://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-francais-2/exercice-francais-23922.php>

Rivers can be either gender, according to usage. If in doubt, check in a
dictionary.

(Broadly speaking, un fleuve is a river that discharges into the sea,
une rivière one that discharges into a larger river.)


We're on safer ground for letters of the alphabet:

« Genre des noms des lettres de l'alphabet. Autrefois, on distinguait
entre les voyelles, qu'on faisait du féminin /(une a, une i)/, et les
consonnes, qu'on considérait comme du masculin quand leur prononciation
ne commence pas par une voyelle : /un d, un p/, et comme du féminin dans
le cas contraire : /une s, une f/, etc. Il existe aujourd'hui une
heureuse tendance à la simplification dans le sens du masculin : /un a,
un c, un h, un f, un r, un t, un y/, etc. » - Colin, 'Dictionnaire des
difficultés du français' (Le Robert), 1993.

In the past, vowels, and consonants whose pronunciation starts with a
vowel, were considered feminine, and other consonants masculine. Now
(i.e. thirty years ago) the tendency is to consider all letters to be
masculine.

[Hibou]

Le 23/08/2023 à 06:18, Hibou a écrit :
>
> We're on safer ground for letters of the alphabet:

Safer ground because the authority is more authoritative, not because
there's a superordinate rule here (there is in the case of motor brand
names¹).

> « Genre des noms des lettres de l'alphabet. Autrefois, on distinguait
> entre les voyelles, qu'on faisait du féminin /(une a, une i)/, et les
> consonnes, qu'on considérait comme du masculin quand leur prononciation
> ne commence pas par une voyelle : /un d, un p/, et comme du féminin dans
> le cas contraire : /une s, une f/, etc. Il existe aujourd'hui une
> heureuse tendance à la simplification dans le sens du masculin : /un a,
> un c, un h, un f, un r, un t, un y/, etc. » - Colin, 'Dictionnaire des
> difficultés du français' (Le Robert), 1993.
>
> In the past, vowels, and consonants whose pronunciation starts with a
> vowel, were considered feminine, and other consonants masculine. Now
> (i.e. thirty years ago) the tendency is to consider all letters to be
> masculine.

¹Which reminds me of a quote from Wodehouse:

"The automobile, a stout, silent man at the helm, throbbed in the
nervous way automobiles have when standing still, suggesting somehow
that it were best to talk quick, as they can give you only a few minutes
before dashing on to keep some other appointment" - 'Uneasy Money', 1916.

Cars were like that then.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm not sure what you don't understand, but the "nonsense rule" was the
claim that

>>>>>>>> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate term
>>>>>>>> -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.

That is clearly nonsense if we accept that Larousse and Robert know
what they're talking about.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-08-23 05:18:20 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 22/08/2023 à 15:20, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:50:00 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Normally, members of a class take the gender of the superordinate
>>>> term -- la lettre, so the letters should be feminine.
>>>
>>> Is that a rule in French? I've never heard of it.
>>
>> River names, I think, was the standard example.
>
> I can't find a reliable source for such a rule in the case of rivers,
> but there are these statements:
>
> « Or les noms de rivières, sauf erreur, sont féminins, tandis que les
> noms de fleuves sont masculins.
> - Faux. / Noms de fleuves féminins : la Charente, la Garonne, la Loire,
> la Meuse, la Seine, la Somme, la Tamise, la Vistule, la Volga etc. /
> Noms de rivières masculins : l'Ain, l'Allier, l'Arc, le Cher, le Doubs,
> le Drac, l'Escaut, l'Inn, le Loir, le Lot, le Main, le Verdon etc. » -
> <http://projetbabel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7942>
>
> This is an assertion that there is such a rule, opposed by a list of
> many exceptions.

Mark Twain: "He runs his eye down and finds that there are more
exceptions to the rule than instances of it." For a long time I thought
that the idea that French nouns -al have plurals -aux was an example of
that, with cheval/chevaux being the only important instance one needed
to know. However, although there are rather few nouns in -al there are
great numbers of adjectives, which follow the rule.

>
> « Les noms de rivières et de fleuves sont, selon l'usage, de l'un ou
> l'autre genre. La Meuse - le Rhône. EN CAS DE DOUTE : UNE VERIFICATION
> DANS LE DICTIONNAIRE S'IMPOSE ! » (emphasis is in the source) -
> <https://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-francais-2/exercice-francais-23922.php>
>
>
> Rivers can be either gender, according to usage. If in doubt, check in
> a dictionary.
>
> (Broadly speaking, un fleuve is a river that discharges into the sea,
> une rivière one that discharges into a larger river.)

In Lyon they sometimes refer to their two rivers as Monsieur Rhône et
Madame Saône.

>
> We're on safer ground for letters of the alphabet:
>
> « Genre des noms des lettres de l'alphabet. Autrefois, on distinguait
> entre les voyelles, qu'on faisait du féminin /(une a, une i)/, et les
> consonnes, qu'on considérait comme du masculin quand leur prononciation
> ne commence pas par une voyelle : /un d, un p/, et comme du féminin
> dans le cas contraire : /une s, une f/, etc. Il existe aujourd'hui une
> heureuse tendance à la simplification dans le sens du masculin : /un a,
> un c, un h, un f, un r, un t, un y/, etc. » - Colin, 'Dictionnaire des
> difficultés du français' (Le Robert), 1993.
>
> In the past, vowels, and consonants whose pronunciation starts with a
> vowel, were considered feminine, and other consonants masculine. Now
> (i.e. thirty years ago) the tendency is to consider all letters to be
> masculine.

I have an idea that there was one weird case (maybe the letter g) for
which the singular was feminine and the plural was masculine. However,
neither Larousse not Robert-Collins say anything about that, so maybe I
imagined it.

[Bebercito]

Thanks.

[Bebercito]

Probably. However, some masculine nouns in the singular become feminine
in the plural, i.e. "amour/s", "orgue/s" and "délice/s", IIRC (but there may be
others).

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 6:12:09 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> Le mercredi 23 août 2023 à 10:48:32 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :

...

> > I have an idea that there was one weird case (maybe the letter g) for
> > which the singular was feminine and the plural was masculine. However,
> > neither Larousse not Robert-Collins say anything about that, so maybe I
> > imagined it.

> Probably. However, some masculine nouns in the singular become feminine
> in the plural, i.e. "amour/s", "orgue/s" and "délice/s", IIRC (but there may be
> others).

Wow, nobody told me that, and I never noticed.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:07:03 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > >>>> On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42 PM UTC-4, Bebercito
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
> > >>>>>> a écrit :

> > >>>>>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
> > >>>>>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism)
> > >>>>>> and masculine
> > >>>>> I was writing in English.
>
> Then the hyphen was unjustified.

Yeah, like you would know.

[Bebercito]

Then please splain why there should be one.

[Peter T. Daniels]

English is allergic to one-letter "words" (we only have one, and it even has
to be capitalized, plus "O," which is rarely seen any more). When the
occasion arises to use one, some means is found to remedy it.

[TonyCooper]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<petert...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:10:14?PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le mercredi 23 août 2023 à 17:52:57 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:07:03?PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> > > > >>>> On 22/08/23 00:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> > > > >>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:35:42?PM UTC-4, Bebercito

>> > > > >>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>> Le dimanche 20 août 2023 à 19:42:58 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
>> > > > >>>>>> a écrit :
>
>> > > > >>>>>>> with "h-aspirée" vs. "h-muet"
>> > > > >>>>>> "h aspiré", no hyphenation in French (that's an Anglicism)
>> > > > >>>>>> and masculine
>> > > > >>>>> I was writing in English.
>> > > Then the hyphen was unjustified.
>> > Yeah, like you would know.
>>
>> Then please splain why there should be one.
>
>English is allergic to one-letter "words" (we only have one, and it even has
>to be capitalized, plus "O," which is rarely seen any more). When the
>occasion arises to use one, some means is found to remedy it.

Which are you not considering to be a "word" A or I?

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[lar3ryca]

Absolutely unbelievable! That a linguist would make a statement like
that boggles the mind. One could assume, of course, that because he
claims that the only one-letter word in the English language must be
capitalized, it must be "I", but predicting the meaning of the
statements from him is nearly impossible.

--
I was looking for the stationery department,
but they moved it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

"a," of course. Having spaces around something doesn't make it a word.
E.g. "ice cream" is one word by any understanding except the spelling.

Even you probably don't capitalize "a" except when that's determined by
a different principle.