Fight to save English spelling
MC
A campaign is being launched to protect English words from being
replaced by American spellings.
Colchester MP Bob Russell wants to prevent youngsters from being shown
words such as "utilize", "color" and "traveling".
He wants to force computer companies to install spellchecking software
which offers English instead of American definitions.
Mr Russell said: "I also want the government to lead by example so all
our schoolchildren, and the public generally, use the English spelling
and not the American spelling."
Many operating systems, such as Microsoft's Windows, already allow users
to select the language they use on the computer. But often popular web
sites utilise American English.
The primary school at Eight Ash Green in Essex, in Mr Russell's
constituency, is sticking up for traditional British English.
Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/essex/2967046.stm
Published: 2003/06/05 20:30:49 GMT
Michael Hamm
in part, quoting the BBC [1]:
> MP Bob Russell wants to prevent youngsters from being shown words such
> as "utilize", "color" and "traveling".
>
> He wants to force computer companies to install spellchecking software
> which offers English instead of American definitions.
>
> Mr Russell said: "I also want the government to lead by example so all
> our schoolchildren, and the public generally, use the English spelling
The above is very different from the below:
> The primary school at Eight Ash Green in Essex, in Mr Russell's
> constituency, is sticking up for traditional British English.
>
> Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
> the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
The first quote is trying to force the public (at least under certain
circumstances) to spell something correctly, which many might find
offensive (I do). The latter is just teaching proper orthography to
schoolchildren, something I think most people would agree is appropriate.
Incidentally, the MP's reference to "the English spelling" is offensive
also. If he's refering to the English language, it's offensive to us
Americans; if he's refering to England, to Scotsmen (inter alia).
[1] Why is it "the BBC" but just "CBS", "NBC", "ABC", "TNT", et al. (each
sans the article)? Is it a BrE/AmE distinction? Or just tradiiton
(the traditional name for the BBC is "the BBC" so it continues)?
Michael Hamm Since mid-September of 2003,
BA scl Math, PBK, NYU I've been erasing too much UBE.
msh...@math.wustl.edu Of a reply, then, if you have been cheated,
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ Likely your mail's by mistake been deleted.
R F
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, Michael Hamm wrote:
> [1] Why is it "the BBC" but just "CBS", "NBC", "ABC", "TNT", et al. (each
> sans the article)? Is it a BrE/AmE distinction? Or just tradiiton
> (the traditional name for the BBC is "the BBC" so it continues)?
Just tradition, is my guess. Consider the WB Network, assuming it still
exists: don't they call themselves "the WB"?
Actually, I think it may be more than just tradition. The structure of
the names "American Broadcasting Corporation" and "National Broadcasting
Corporation" (let's leave CBS aside FTM) resemble the structure of
"British Broadcastiing Corporation". But there always was a difference:
the BBC was a state monopoly, while ABC and NBC have always been
privately-owned companies. So I think the "American" and the "National"
started out as wishful thinking, like "We want to be *the* broadcaster for
the US"; you see this in lots of private entity names in the US. But the
"British" in BBC connoted "owned by the British state entity" from the
get-go. No?
Harvey Van Sickle
>
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, Michael Hamm wrote:
snip re: why "the" BBC?
> Just tradition, is my guess. Consider the WB Network, assuming it
> still exists: don't they call themselves "the WB"?
> Actually, I think it may be more than just tradition. The
> structure of the names "American Broadcasting Corporation" and
> "National Broadcasting Corporation" (let's leave CBS aside FTM)
> resemble the structure of "British Broadcastiing Corporation".
> But there always was a difference: the BBC was a state monopoly,
> while ABC and NBC have always been privately-owned companies. So
> I think the "American" and the "National" started out as wishful
> thinking, like "We want to be *the* broadcaster for the US"; you
> see this in lots of private entity names in the US. But the
> "British" in BBC connoted "owned by the British state entity" from
> the get-go. No?
In support of that, I'm fairly certain the Canadian Broadcasting
Corporation (also state-owned) tends towards "the CBC" rather than
an unarticled "CBC".
(Or at least it used to be -- I'm not sure of the current practice.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
R H Draney
>
>The primary school at Eight Ash Green in Essex, in Mr Russell's
>constituency, is sticking up for traditional British English.
>
>Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
>the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
Next year, he hopes to return the thorn and yogh to their rightful place in the
language....r
Matti Lamprhey
Actually no. The B.B.C. (period periods, there) was originally The
British Broadcasting Company, a private company.
You can get a good idea of it all from here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/thenandnow/history/index.shtml
"The British Broadcasting Company, as the BBC was originally called, was
formed on 18 October 1922 by a group of leading wireless manufacturers
including Marconi. Daily broadcasting by the BBC began in Marconi’s
London studio, 2LO, in the Strand, on November 14, 1922. This was
followed the next day by broadcasts from Birmingham and Manchester."
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
I heard on the radio today that woad is due for a comeback.
Matti
david56
The BBC is not owned by the state. What a terrible idea. It is a
corporation established by Royal Charter.
--
David
=====
Adrian Bailey
news:copeSP-1BDA4A....@mail.inter.net...
> Fight to save English spelling
>
> A campaign is being launched to protect English words from being
> replaced by American spellings.
>
> Colchester MP Bob Russell wants to prevent youngsters from being shown
> words such as "utilize", "color" and "traveling".
Although I think British children should be taught British spelling, I don't
think it matters that much if they use US spellings or if Britain drifts
over to US spelling.
> He wants to force computer companies to install spellchecking software
> which offers English instead of American definitions.
I do agree that much of the WP software being used in the UK has US
spell/grammar checkers installed and this is leading to confusion, error and
inconsistency. Whether the government should legislate to mitigate this
problem, I'm not sure.
Adrian
sage
"Harvey Van Sickle" <harve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9415A92D...@194.168.222.41...
Both get used, in fact.
"Royal Canadian Air farce is on CBC tonight." (As opposed to being on CTV.)
But: "The CBC had its budget cut again today." (so the G-G could explore
Vanuatu's culture scene.)
Cheers, Sage
>
sage
"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:bmjrv8$nhcc4$1...@ID-103223.news.uni-berlin.de...
You mean the Conservatives'll prevail ... somewhere?
Cheers, Sage
>
Matti Lamprhey
Isn't it effectively owned by the nation? Certainly not by the
government. I would equate "state" with nation rather than government.
Matti
Alan Jones
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:T_ejb.400$l37...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
If it's Microsoft software, it can easily be modified to use a British
English spell-checker. There is no need to install additional software. (Of
course, as reference to any Oxford dictionary will confirm, "utilize" is an
acceptable BrE spelling. But pupils should be taught that "use" would
normally be a better choice of word.)
Alan Jones
M. J. Powell
<matti-...@totally-official.com> writes
Doaw!
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Ross Howard
wrought:
I think you may be right. As an institution, rather than a private
company, it's treated like "the CIA", "the UN", etc. This would seem
to be borne out by the articlelessness (TM) of the traditional "other
side", ITV, which is a consortium of private firms (although now, *de
facto*, a consortium of one).
***********
Ross Howard
MC
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think most half-decent word-processors let you choose between a
variety of "national" dictionaries, don't they?
Adrian Bailey
> I think most half-decent word-processors let you choose between a
> variety of "national" dictionaries, don't they?
They might let you choose, but most are set to "US English", even for
British sales, and most people don't realise this unless it's pointed out to
them.
Adrian
MC
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I think most half-decent word-processors let you choose between a
> > variety of "national" dictionaries, don't they?
>
> They might let you choose, but most are set to "US English", even for
> British sales, and most people don't realise this unless it's pointed out to
> them.
You can lead 'em to water but you can't make 'em drink, I suppose.
Harvey Van Sickle
That's usually the case, but I don't think this is the invariable
default for the oft-maligned MS Word.
I seem to recall that when I last installed it, it recognised that my
machine was set to UK timte, and defaulted to the British English
dictionary.
Richard Chambers
"MC" <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote
> Fight to save English spelling
>
> A campaign is being launched to protect English words from being
> replaced by American spellings.
>
> Colchester MP Bob Russell wants to prevent youngsters from being shown
> words such as "utilize", "color" and "traveling".
------------------
Mr Russell will have to provide some additional explanation if he is to
receive my support in this campaign. He wants a double-l in "travelling",
contrary to the US American preference for a single-l in "traveling". But, I
assume, he wants a single-l at the end of "fulfil", contrary to the US
American preference for a double-l at the end of "fulfill". Does he do this
purely to be contrary? Let him decide whether he wants a single-l or a
double-l, then ask him to apply rules consistently across all spellings.
------------------
>
> [ . . .]
>
> Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
> the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
>
------------------
Such teaching may become laborious, especially when the teachers have to
explain that the u *must* be left out of "labour" to form the adjective.
Similarly, "colour" becomes "coloration" in BrE spelling.
I have little patience with Britishness for Britishness's sake, where there
is no other logical or practical justification. If an AmE spelling is
superior to its BrE counterpart, it is common sense for us to adopt it. Such
examples are indeed the very words quoted by Mr Rusell, such as "color" and
"labor", since the AmE spelling leads to greater self-consistency when
derivative words (coloration, laborious) are formed from the main stem.
The opposition to American spelling is motivated by the desire to be
patriotic. The patriotism becomes counter-productive if it over-complicates
our spellings without good reason. The big weakness of the English language
is its over-complicated spelling. Some standardisation is overdue. The USA,
with five times our population, is now the major player in the English
language, and Mr Russell should reconcile himself to that fact.
Why am I arguing this way when all my postings are consistently in BrE
spelling? That's because I have no control over where my fingers go on the
keyboard. The fingers have typed the BrE spelling even before my conscious
brain has thought about it. There is nothing I can do about it, it always
comes out as BrE. But that sort of ad hominem argument is no reason why our
schoolchildren should be narrow-mindedly taught BrE rather than AmE
spelling.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )
R F wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, Michael Hamm wrote:
>
> > [1] Why is it "the BBC" but just "CBS", "NBC", "ABC", "TNT", et al. (each
> > sans the article)? Is it a BrE/AmE distinction? Or just tradiiton
> > (the traditional name for the BBC is "the BBC" so it continues)?
>
> Just tradition, is my guess. Consider the WB Network, assuming it still
> exists: don't they call themselves "the WB"?
>
ABC needs to differentiate itself from The ABC, The Australian
Broadcasting Corporation.
Charles Riggs
<harve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>That's usually the case, but I don't think this is the invariable
>default for the oft-maligned MS Word.
>
>I seem to recall that when I last installed it, it recognised that my
>machine was set to UK timte, and defaulted to the British English
>dictionary.
Mine too. I wonder if it has something to do with changing, on Windows
installation, the default US settings to the optional British and
Irish ones for region, keyboard, and...uh...something else.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggsŚatŚeircomŚdotŚnet
Raymond S. Wise
news:qgrsov0ifqudeb8sg...@4ax.com...
I don't know if I've asked this before in this newsgroup, but there's a
problem I need solved. I have an account in Yahoo! France and used to be
able to go to it and have everything in French, including, most usefully,
the spelling checker. Now when I go to it, it's always in English. Anyone
know how to fix this?
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> I don't know if I've asked this before in this newsgroup, but
> there's a problem I need solved. I have an account in Yahoo!
> France and used to be able to go to it and have everything in
> French, including, most usefully, the spelling checker. Now when I
> go to it, it's always in English. Anyone know how to fix this?
(This may qualify for the "egg-sucking-by-grannies Teaching
Certificate"; if so, apologies.)
Do you clear your cookies regularly -- no, *not* toss them: *do*
behave yourself in the back row, there -- or do you use a cookie
manager?
The most likely reasons, to me, would be either (a) you've got a cookie
on your system that's identifying where you're from -- and identifying
that as an English nation; or (b) you've cleared all the cookies off
your system, and it's "re-defaulting" to where you're coming from each
time you access the site.
On a lot of sites -- google, the BBC, weather sites, and such-like --
you can opt for geographical preferences, but they'll only "save" those
if you retain the appropriate cookie on your machine.
Dunno if this will help; hope so.
Dr Robin Bignall
They are talking this week about the power generation margin between
everyone being able to cook Christmas luncheon and then watch HM, and total
nationwide blackout, is only 2% because of the closure and mothballing of
power stations. We're in for a bad winter, then, and will need something to
wear to keep warm.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
R F
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
> They are talking this week about the power generation margin between
> everyone being able to cook Christmas luncheon and then watch HM, and total
> nationwide blackout, is only 2% because of the closure and mothballing of
> power stations.
"Christmas luncheon"? Should I ask what that is?
Skitt
Something you have to tide you over until Christmas dinner, I suppose.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Linz
<harve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 15 Oct 2003, Adrian Bailey wrote
>
>> "MC" <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote in message
>> news:copeSP-D5D902....@mail.inter.net...
>>> I think most half-decent word-processors let you choose between a
>>> variety of "national" dictionaries, don't they?
>>
>> They might let you choose, but most are set to "US English", even
>> for British sales, and most people don't realise this unless it's
>> pointed out to them.
>
>That's usually the case, but I don't think this is the invariable
>default for the oft-maligned MS Word.
It seems to be - one of the first things I do when my lecturers get
upgraded pcs at work is remind them to change the dictionary.
>I seem to recall that when I last installed it, it recognised that my
>machine was set to UK timte, and defaulted to the British English
>dictionary.
You lucky thing. Our machines come set to UK time but still default to
the US English dictionary.
--
Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen
david56
I supposed that "by the nation" is about the closest one can get to
describing the ownership of the BBC.
I understand "the state" to be the machineries of the state, not the
people of the nation.
--
David
=====
Robert Bannister
> R F wrote:
>
>>Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>
>>>They are talking this week about the power generation margin between
>>>everyone being able to cook Christmas luncheon and then watch HM,
>>>and total nationwide blackout, is only 2% because of the closure and
>>>mothballing of power stations.
>>
>>"Christmas luncheon"? Should I ask what that is?
>
>
> Something you have to tide you over until Christmas dinner, I suppose.
Since I've recently taken to having the Christmas meal in a hotel, I've
noticed I have to be careful to distinguish between 'lunch(-eon)' and
'dinner' if I don't want to have it at the wrong time. At home, it is
traditional to have Xmas dinner at lunchtime, which, because of panics
over the turkey cooking time, usually ends up being somewhere between 2
and 3 pm. When I say 'at home', I mean at home here in Australia - us
Poms still stick to the English hot meal routine. Real born & bred
Ozzies eat cold seafood and salad on the beach.
--
Rob Bannister
R F
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Robert Bannister wrote:
> Since I've recently taken to having the Christmas meal in a hotel, I've
> noticed I have to be careful to distinguish between 'lunch(-eon)' and
> 'dinner' if I don't want to have it at the wrong time.
That's an odd use of "recently" if what you mean is "in recent
Christmases" (I can't figure out what else you might mean, assuming
Christmas meals are only had once a year), but others may disagree.
Robert Bannister
I did it for the first time last Xmas and have just booked again for the
coming one. Compared with the 63 years of my life, this is recent
practice for me.
--
Rob Bannister
Matt Davis
news:oNkjb.704$ov2...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> "MC" <cop...@AMZAPca.inter.net> wrote
>
> > Fight to save English spelling
> >
> > A campaign is being launched to protect English words from being
> > replaced by American spellings.
> >
> > Colchester MP Bob Russell wants to prevent youngsters from being shown
> > words such as "utilize", "color" and "traveling".
> ------------------
> Mr Russell will have to provide some additional explanation if he is to
> receive my support in this campaign. He wants a double-l in "travelling",
> contrary to the US American preference for a single-l in "traveling". But, I
> assume, he wants a single-l at the end of "fulfil", contrary to the US
> American preference for a double-l at the end of "fulfill". Does he do this
> purely to be contrary? Let him decide whether he wants a single-l or a
> double-l, then ask him to apply rules consistently across all spellings.
> ------------------
The rules used in determining the spelling of words such as "travelling" are a
different set of rules to those used to determine the spelling of words such as
"fulfil". "travelling" is based on the rules followed when spelling bisyllabic
(?) words with no stress on the second syllable, and using the "-ing" form - you
double the final consonant in these cases in English English. "fulfil" comes
under a different set of rules.
> > Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
> > the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
> >
> ------------------
> Such teaching may become laborious, especially when the teachers have to
> explain that the u *must* be left out of "labour" to form the adjective.
> Similarly, "colour" becomes "coloration" in BrE spelling.
>
> I have little patience with Britishness for Britishness's sake, where there
> is no other logical or practical justification. If an AmE spelling is
> superior to its BrE counterpart, it is common sense for us to adopt it. Such
> examples are indeed the very words quoted by Mr Rusell, such as "color" and
> "labor", since the AmE spelling leads to greater self-consistency when
> derivative words (coloration, laborious) are formed from the main stem.
Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically pleasing
when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
> The opposition to American spelling is motivated by the desire to be
> patriotic. The patriotism becomes counter-productive if it over-complicates
> our spellings without good reason. The big weakness of the English language
> is its over-complicated spelling. Some standardisation is overdue. The USA,
> with five times our population, is now the major player in the English
> language, and Mr Russell should reconcile himself to that fact.
Yes, but English originated in England, and Americans should not change our fine
language without our permission. You are English yourself, so why stick up for
THEM?
Cheers,
Matt
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically pleasing
> when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
And of course the fact that you've seen them with a "u" all your
life has nothing to do with your aesthetic judgment. (I don't know
you well enough to be sure your remark was tongue-in-cheek.)
[ ... ]
> Yes, but English originated in England, and Americans should not change our fine
> language without our permission. You are English yourself, so why stick up for
> THEM?
From the AUE FAQ's list of things posters should avoid:
"(4) assertions that one variety of English is "true English".
See <http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxguidel.html>.
(Prior parenthetical remark incorporated by reference.)
--
Bob Lieblich
Murrican
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Matt Davis wrote:
> Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically pleasing
> when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
You're more right than you realize, Matt. You're like Enoch Powell in
this case. Americans may use "color" and "labor", but most honest ones
who (= TC 'that') have considered the matter will agree with you that
these spellings are uglier than BrE "colour" and "labour". Indeed,
you'll sometimes see BrE spellings used for stylized effect in AmE
contexts, for their aesthetic value. Not so much with "colour" or
"labour", but you'll see lots of Midwestern shopping malls with "Centre"
in their names, frex.
But the other side of this is that "colour" and "labour" also seem sort of
dainty and effete. Rather like French, only less so. So it comes down to
this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular manly
football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want to be
a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user of
"colour" and "labour"? Your choice, son. Just as every BrE citizen
defines himself by what newspaper he reads (_The Guardian_ in John Dean's
case), so too every BrE citizen defines himself by whether he wishes to
adhere to BrE spelling conventions.
> Yes, but English originated in England, and Americans should not change our fine
> language without our permission. You are English yourself, so why stick up for
> THEM?
Actually, English originated in the Angul district of Schleswig.
Maria Conlon
<laughter>
Do you realize, Richard, that you have taken on not only the people of
England, but of Ireland as well? Calling the men less than men is a
serious thing.
You may be hearing from them, and despite what others in aue may say,
the Irish are a quick-tempered group. (I'm going by the way my
father-in-law behaved almost to the end of his life.)
Maria Conlon
Simon R. Hughes
>
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Matt Davis wrote:
>
> > Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically pleasing
> > when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
>
> You're more right than you realize, Matt. You're like Enoch Powell in
> this case. Americans may use "color" and "labor", but most honest ones
> who (= TC 'that') have considered the matter will agree with you that
> these spellings are uglier than BrE "colour" and "labour". Indeed,
> you'll sometimes see BrE spellings used for stylized effect in AmE
> contexts, for their aesthetic value. Not so much with "colour" or
> "labour", but you'll see lots of Midwestern shopping malls with "Centre"
> in their names, frex.
>
> But the other side of this is that "colour" and "labour" also seem sort of
> dainty and effete. Rather like French, only less so. So it comes down to
> this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular manly
> football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want to be
> a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user of
> "colour" and "labour"? Your choice, son. Just as every BrE citizen
> defines himself by what newspaper he reads (_The Guardian_ in John Dean's
> case), so too every BrE citizen defines himself by whether he wishes to
> adhere to BrE spelling conventions.
Is there something wrong with "dainty", Richard?
Something wrong with "effete"?
Is there something wrong with liking the ballet, Bob?
And how would you define "girly-man"?
Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
insult.
I would have thought such a stone-caster as you would make sure he
was without sin.
> > Yes, but English originated in England, and Americans should not change our fine
> > language without our permission. You are English yourself, so why stick up for
> > THEM?
>
> Actually, English originated in the Angul district of Schleswig.
Not good enough. We want a street address.
--
Simon R. Hughes <!-- Note correct email address. -->
<!-- Roger Rabbit for President!
(Don't say it couldn't happen.) -->
Simon R. Hughes
Gay is less than a man? Oh dear.
> You may be hearing from them, and despite what others in aue may say,
> the Irish are a quick-tempered group. (I'm going by the way my
> father-in-law behaved almost to the end of his life.)
He liked the ballet?
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Maria Conlon wrote:
> Do you realize, Richard, that you have taken on not only the people of
> England, but of Ireland as well? Calling the men less than men is a
> serious thing.
>
> You may be hearing from them, and despite what others in aue may say,
> the Irish are a quick-tempered group. (I'm going by the way my
> father-in-law behaved almost to the end of his life.)
"Well," as Irish-descended and Illinois native Ronald "Dutch" Reagan used
to say, this is certainly true of AUE's most actively-posting Irishman,
Padraig Breathnach. He's real into this whole chivalry thing too, I
think, which I guess has something to do with outmoded gender roles and
Hibernian _machismo_ (there must be a good Gaelic synonym for
"machismo") and such. I can see why the Hemingwayesque Chuck
Riggs chose Ireland as his post-American home. (I hope CR is not insulted
by my calling him Hemingwayesque, which is more compliment than insult,
but I know he's a Faulkner fan.)
Tony Cooper likes to emphasize his tenuous links to Ireland and Irish
culture, but the proof is in the pudding; Coop, unlike Edmund Burke,
Bono Vox, and other famous Irishmen, is very slow to anger. Coop would
like you to think that it's that whole lace-curtains vs. shanty thing,
"domestic service Irish" vs. "field Irish" (OPISW "irish"), BIDTS. Truth
is, Coop's a Hoosier, and there's naught wrong with that.
Simon R. Hughes
> He's real into this whole chivalry thing too, I
> think, which I guess has something to do with outmoded gender roles
What about outmoded gender *stereotypes*, Bob?
Richard Chambers
"R F" <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote
>
> [. . .]
> [. . .] Americans may use "color" and "labor", but most honest ones
> who (= TC 'that') have considered the matter will agree with you that
> these spellings are uglier than BrE "colour" and "labour". Indeed,
> you'll sometimes see BrE spellings used for stylized effect in AmE
> contexts, for their aesthetic value. Not so much with "colour" or
> "labour", but you'll see lots of Midwestern shopping malls with "Centre"
> in their names, frex.
>
That's a strange coincidence. Over here, it is a relatively common sight to
see signs incorporating the word "Center". For the same twee reasons that
you have described. Although the British, in general, tend to disdain all
foreigners, we can never resist the opportunity to use foreign words or
foreign spellings.
We have also enthusiastically adopted the execrable US American habit of
deliberately and knowingly mis-spelling words in advertisements and product
names. The latest example, which I saw for the first time yesterday, was an
advertisement hoarding which extolled the virtues of the New!!! New!!!
New!!! product KitKat Kubes [1].
[1] KitKat is the product name of a brand of wafer biscuit, covered with
rather sweet milk chocolate, and very popular in Britain. To judge by the
advertisement, KitKat Kubes are packets of individual bite-size KitKats,
approximating in shape to Kubes.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
MC
"Richard Chambers" <richard....@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
What do you think of this pair?
BrE "kerb"
AmE "curb"
Alison
wrote:
>In article <NgEkb.992$427...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net>,
> "Richard Chambers" <richard....@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "R F" <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote
>>
>> We have also enthusiastically adopted the execrable US American habit of
>> deliberately and knowingly mis-spelling words in advertisements and product
>> names. The latest example, which I saw for the first time yesterday, was an
>> advertisement hoarding which extolled the virtues of the New!!! New!!!
>> New!!! product KitKat Kubes [1].
>>
>> [1] KitKat is the product name of a brand of wafer biscuit, covered with
>> rather sweet milk chocolate, and very popular in Britain. To judge by the
>> advertisement, KitKat Kubes are packets of individual bite-size KitKats,
>> approximating in shape to Kubes.
>
>What do you think of this pair?
>
>BrE "kerb"
>
>AmE "curb"
Both curb and kerb exist in BrE. They just mean different things.
The kerb is the edge of the pavement (that's sidewalk to Americans).
To curb is a verb, as in "Curb your enthusiasm"
--
Alison
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Richard Chambers wrote:
>
> "R F" <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote
> >
> > [. . .]
>
> > [. . .] Americans may use "color" and "labor", but most honest ones
> > who (= TC 'that') have considered the matter will agree with you that
> > these spellings are uglier than BrE "colour" and "labour". Indeed,
> > you'll sometimes see BrE spellings used for stylized effect in AmE
> > contexts, for their aesthetic value. Not so much with "colour" or
> > "labour", but you'll see lots of Midwestern shopping malls with "Centre"
> > in their names, frex.
> >
>
> That's a strange coincidence. Over here, it is a relatively common sight to
> see signs incorporating the word "Center". For the same twee reasons that
> you have described. Although the British, in general, tend to disdain all
> foreigners, we can never resist the opportunity to use foreign words or
> foreign spellings.
What does the spelling "center" suggest to a BrE? Surely it doesn't
convey the elegance and opulence that "centre" conveys to the AmE.
> We have also enthusiastically adopted the execrable US American habit of
> deliberately and knowingly mis-spelling words in advertisements and product
> names. The latest example, which I saw for the first time yesterday, was an
> advertisement hoarding which extolled the virtues of the New!!! New!!!
> New!!! product KitKat Kubes [1].
Are you certain that this practice originated in the US and not in
Britain?
> [1] KitKat is the product name of a brand of wafer biscuit, covered with
> rather sweet milk chocolate, and very popular in Britain.
Kit Kats are well known in the US too; after all, we invented them.
We wouldn't describe them as "wafer biscuits", however. I'd put Kit Kats
in the "candy bar" class.
I'm surprised that they're popular in Britain, since Kit Kats combine
sweet and savoury flavours in ways that I thought were forbidden in the
UK. Granted, the end result is basically sweet.
> To judge by the
> advertisement, KitKat Kubes are packets of individual bite-size KitKats,
> approximating in shape to Kubes.
Are these also being marketed under that name in the US? "Kit Kat Kube"
is bound to suggest the Ku Klux Klan to some of us, such as me. In the
Netherlands and places like that, where (white) people worship famed
computer scientist and TeX inventor Don Knuth as a "Grand Wizard", things
like that might fly, but it can't happen here, OSIWT.
MC
Alison <news....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >BrE "kerb"
> >
> >AmE "curb"
>
> Both curb and kerb exist in BrE. They just mean different things.
> The kerb is the edge of the pavement (that's sidewalk to Americans).
> To curb is a verb, as in "Curb your enthusiasm"
Indeed... but in AmE the noun for the edge of the sidewalk (pavement) is
the curb... and it seems to me to make more sense than kerb, (which
always strikes me as a most un-English-looking word).
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Thus spake R F:
> > Matt Davis wrote:
> > > Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically
> > > pleasing when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
except French. BrE "colour" and "labour" are plain ugly, bastardized,
and look very silly. There's no sound reason for using the
superfluous <u> in these words. Any American -- writing in the USA --
who apes the Brits and writes "colour" and "labour" is either
pretentious or a faggot or both.
Br. English: colour labour [very silly & pretentious]
Am. English: color labor [cool & correct]
Latin: color labor
Italian: colore labor-
Spanish: color labor
Portuguese: color- labor
Rumanian: color- labor-
French: couleur labour
Q.E.D.
> > You're more right than you realize, Matt. You're like Enoch Powell in
> > this case. Americans may use "color" and "labor", but most honest ones
> > who (= TC 'that') have considered the matter will agree with you that
> > these spellings are uglier than BrE "colour" and "labour".
Heavy-dose-of-irony & dry wit alert!
[...]
> > But the other side of this is that "colour" and "labour" also
> > seem sort of dainty and effete.
Good man, Robert. They not only seem but *are*.
> > Rather like French, only less so. So it comes down to
> > this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular manly
> > football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want to be
> > a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user of
> > "colour" and "labour"? Your choice, son. Just as every BrE citizen
> > defines himself by what newspaper he reads (_The Guardian_ in John Dean's
> > case), so too every BrE citizen defines himself by whether he wishes to
> > adhere to BrE spelling conventions.
> Is there something wrong with "dainty", Richard?
For a man to be so, yes.
> Something wrong with "effete"?
For a man to be so, yes.
> Is there something wrong with liking the ballet, Bob?
For a man to do so, yes.
> And how would you define "girly-man"?
I would define "girly-man" as an American who writes "colour" and "labour."
> Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype
> as an insult.
Have you no sense of "humour," Simoun? Give Richard credit for
cleverly paraphrasing "faggot" as "a Gallophilic ballet-dancing
girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user of 'colour' and 'labour.'"
> I would have thought such a stone-caster as you would make
> sure he was without sin.
Professor Fontana *is* without sin! He's the purest spirit in this
foul group.
> > > Yes, but English originated in England, and Americans should not change
> > > our fine language without our permission. You are English yourself, so
> > > why stick up for THEM?
> > Actually, English originated in the Angul district of Schleswig.
> Not good enough. We want a street address.
Umlautstraße 14
D-20034 Holstein
Germany
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Alison wrote:
> Both curb and kerb exist in BrE. They just mean different things.
> The kerb is the edge of the pavement (that's sidewalk to Americans).
Well, to Americans the curb is the edge of the pavement as well as the
edge of the sidewalk, I suppose.
> To curb is a verb, as in "Curb your enthusiasm"
Or as in "please curb your dog", well-known to New York city residents.
MC
ar...@iname.com (Murray Arnow) wrote:
> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> > Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
> > Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
> > except French. BrE "colour" and "labour" are plain ugly, bastardized,
> > and look very silly. There's no sound reason for using the
> > superfluous <u> in these words. Any American -- writing in the USA --
> > who apes the Brits and writes "colour" and "labour" is either
> > pretentious or a faggot or both.
> >
> Ouch!
Source:
The Cambridge History of English and American Literature in 18 Volumes
(190721).
VOLUME XVIII. Later National Literature, Part III.
XXX. The English Language in America.
§ 7. American Spelling.
Dr. Johnson¹s spelling has undergone some simplification in both
countries: almanack, musick, errour, horrour, interiour, successour,
emperour, oratour, have everywhere dropped unnecessary letters. The
abandonment of the French -our for Latin -or has gone a little further
in the American printing-houses; honour, humour, vigour, harbour,
labour, neighbour, valour, clamour, clangour, saviour, and a few others
have joined the overwhelming majority of -or words. British men of
letters could be cited who have employed the same simplification. Other
French spellings like theatre and centre are less common in America than
in England. Parallel to the simplification of almanac(k) are wag(g)on,
travel(l)er. Of the British attempts to distinguish by the spelling
story, narrative (plural stories), from storey, floor (pl. storeys), and
curb (bit) from kerb (stone), the first has some etymological argument
in its favour, but neither has commended itself to American usage.
Britons themselves are quite as likely to spell cider and pajamas in the
fashion always employed in America as they are to write cyder and
pyjamas.
Matt Davis
news:bmjfu6$4l2$3...@newsreader.wustl.edu...
> The first quote is trying to force the public (at least under certain
> circumstances) to spell something correctly, which many might find
> offensive (I do). The latter is just teaching proper orthography to
> schoolchildren, something I think most people would agree is appropriate.
>
> Incidentally, the MP's reference to "the English spelling" is offensive
> also. If he's refering to the English language, it's offensive to us
> Americans; if he's refering to England, to Scotsmen (inter alia).
Why would Americans find it offensive? If it means English spelling as in the
spelling used in England, then surely that can't be found offensive?
Cheers,
Matt
Matt Davis
news:3F932BD2...@sonic.net...
> Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
> Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
> except French. BrE "colour" and "labour" are plain ugly, bastardized,
> and look very silly. There's no sound reason for using the
> superfluous <u> in these words. Any American -- writing in the USA --
> who apes the Brits and writes "colour" and "labour" is either
> pretentious or a faggot or both.
>
> Br. English: colour labour [very silly & pretentious]
> Am. English: color labor [cool & correct]
> Latin: color labor
> Italian: colore labor-
> Spanish: color labor
> Portuguese: color- labor
> Rumanian: color- labor-
> French: couleur labour
>
> Q.E.D.
Colour is more colourful than color. QED.
Cheers,
Matt
rzed
"Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals. You're right,
though. It is a shame about stereotypes.
>
> I would have thought such a stone-caster as you would make sure he
> was without sin.
--
rzed
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Kit Kats are well known in the US too; after all, we invented them.
> We wouldn't describe them as "wafer biscuits", however. I'd put Kit Kats
> in the "candy bar" class.
I wouldn't. Or rather, I might put Kit Kats in the "candy bar class", but
I wouldn't say that a Kit Kat is a candy bar. It is closely allied to
candy bars, but it's a different sort of thing. The shape and size
prevents a Kit Kat from being a candy bar. I might call a Kit Kat Big Kat
a candy bar, though.
Twix presents a similar problem. Empirically, a Twix seems to resemble a
candy bar more closely than does a Kit Kat, but my gut feeling is that
Twix are more closely allied to cookies than to candy bars. This may be
just personal idiosyncrasy. On the other hand, I have this notion that
Twix are sold in boxes of a couple dozen or so, like cookies, rather than
individually wrapped at the cashier's counter like candy bars - is this
so?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Maria Conlon
> Thus spake Maria Conlon:
>> <laughter> [in response to RF's post]
>>
>> Do you realize, Richard, that you have taken on not only the people
>> of England, but of Ireland as well? Calling the men less than men is
>> a serious thing.
>
> Gay is less than a man? Oh dear.
Richard (Robert, to you) used this comparison:
'So it comes down to this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular
manly football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want
to be a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user
of "colour" and "labour"?'
Sounds like "less than men" to me. "Girly-man" alone hints at that,
don't you think?
>
>> You may be hearing from them, and despite what others in aue may say,
>> the Irish are a quick-tempered group. (I'm going by the way my
>> father-in-law behaved almost to the end of his life.)
>
> He liked the ballet?
To watch sometimes on TV, perhaps. I mentioned him because of his
Irishness (born and raised there) and behavior. No matter how he spelled
certain words, he would take exception to what Richard said, and Richard
would be the sadder for it.
Maria Conlon
mUs1Ka
"R F" <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53.03...@alumni.wesleyan.edu...
>
>
> Kit Kats are well known in the US too; after all, we invented them.
Yeah, sure.
Kit Kat was introduced in England in 1935 and was brought to the United
States by Hershey Foods Corporation in 1969.
> We wouldn't describe them as "wafer biscuits", however. I'd put Kit Kats
> in the "candy bar" class.
Yeah, sure.
Kit Kat Big Kat wafer bars are five layers of crunchy wafer crisps layered
with chocolatey praline and covered in Hershey's milk chocolate.
Extracts from: http://www.hersheynewsroom.com/press/kitkat_story.html
m.
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, mUs1Ka wrote:
> > Kit Kats are well known in the US too; after all, we invented them.
>
> Yeah, sure.
> Kit Kat was introduced in England in 1935 and was brought to the United
> States by Hershey Foods Corporation in 1969.
>
> > We wouldn't describe them as "wafer biscuits", however. I'd put Kit Kats
> > in the "candy bar" class.
>
> Yeah, sure.
>
> Kit Kat Big Kat wafer bars are five layers of crunchy wafer crisps layered
> with chocolatey praline and covered in Hershey's milk chocolate.
Where in that does it say "wafer biscuits"? Kit Kats aren't *biscuits*,
man!
Plus, if Kit Kats originated in Britain, then how can they have been
covered in *Hershey*'s milk chocolate, eh?
MC
"Richard Chambers" <richard....@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote:
> We have also enthusiastically adopted the execrable US American habit of
> deliberately and knowingly mis-spelling words in advertisements and product
> names. The latest example, which I saw for the first time yesterday, was an
> advertisement hoarding which extolled the virtues of the New!!! New!!!
> New!!! product KitKat Kubes [1].
>
> [1] KitKat is the product name of a brand of wafer biscuit, covered with
> rather sweet milk chocolate, and very popular in Britain. To judge by the
> advertisement, KitKat Kubes are packets of individual bite-size KitKats,
> approximating in shape to Kubes.
According to Nestlé's site, the Kit-Kat biscuit was named after an 18th
century British political club (Whig to be precise) called the Kit-Kat
Club.
http://www.kitkat.co.uk/flash/
Other links:
http://www.gole.org.uk/kitkatclub.htm
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/portraits/kneller.html
So it seems this isn't an execrable American abomination after all.
R J Valentine
} Simon R. Hughes wrote:
}
}> Thus spake R F:
...
}> > Rather like French, only less so. So it comes down to
}> > this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular manly
}> > football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want to be
}> > a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user of
}> > "colour" and "labour"? Your choice, son.
...
}> Is there something wrong with liking the ballet, Bob?
}
} For a man to do so, yes.
Hey, I went to _Swan Lake_ once. The music was pretty good, and the
pat-a-cat routine was pretty good (and seemed to be well received.
}> And how would you define "girly-man"?
}
} I would define "girly-man" as an American who writes "colour" and "labour."
Before this gets too serious, "girly-man" is the hook to hang a routine on
that evokes the "Hans und Franz" segment of _Saturday Night Live_ some
years ago, which in turn may evoke the newly relevant Governor of
California, his history, and his recent campaign. Anyone who didn't look
like the old (WITS "young" (ObBob)) Arnold could count on being called a
girly-man, as could some who did.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
mUs1Ka
"R F" <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53.03...@alumni.wesleyan.edu...
>
American site for you.
Here's the uk site - kitkat.co.uk
Let me tell you everything there is to know about the UK's favourite
chocolate bar, Kit Kat.
History
You know Kit Kat was never originally called Kit Kat. The chocolate crisp
bar was made and originally launched in London and the South East of England
in September 1935, and was called Rowntree's Chocolate Crisp. It only became
'Kit Kat' in 1937, two years before the Second World War.
The name
Kit Kat was supposedly named after the Kit Kat club, an 18th Century Whig
literary club. As the building had very low ceilings, it could only
accommodate paintings, which were wide and not very high. In the art world,
these paintings were known as 'kats'. It's believed that Kit Kat derived its
name from paintings, which had to be snapped off to fit into the rooms with
the low ceilings. Sounds a bit bizarre to me!
Within two years of it first being sold, around 1937, Kit Kat was
established as Rowntree's leading product, a position it has maintained ever
since. During the Second World War, Kit Kat was viewed as a valuable wartime
food and its advertising described the brand as 'What active people need',
so my grandmother has told me.
m.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" wrote:
> > Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
> > Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
> > except French. BrE "colour" and "labour" are plain ugly, bastardized,
> > and look very silly. There's no sound reason for using the
> > superfluous <u> in these words. Any American -- writing in the USA --
> > who apes the Brits and writes "colour" and "labour" is either
> > pretentious or a faggot or both.
> Ouch!
Nu? What did I do? Is "Ouch!" more painful than "Oy!"?
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
> } Simon R. Hughes wrote:
> }> Thus spake R F:
> ...
> }> > Rather like French, only less so. So it comes down to
> }> > this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular manly
> }> > football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want
> }> > to be a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean
> }> > user of "colour" and "labour"? Your choice, son.
> ...
> }> Is there something wrong with liking the ballet, Bob?
> } For a man to do so, yes.
> Hey, I went to _Swan Lake_ once.
[...]
I *knew* there's something swishy about you, Señor Torquemada.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
R F
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, MC wrote:
> According to Nestlé's site, the Kit-Kat biscuit was named after an 18th
> century British political club (Whig to be precise) called the Kit-Kat
> Club.
How can you call the Kit Kat a "biscuit"? AFAWK, BrE "biscuit" means
usually (a) AmE "cookie", and less usually (b) AmE "cracker". We agree
that the Kit Kat is more sweet than savoury. So if it's a biscuit it has
to be a cookie. But no AmE in his or her right or left mind would
consider a Kit Kat to be a cookie. Twix is a whole nother story; see what
Dinkin has written on the subject.
I've had chocolate wafer cookie-type things. I can see how the Kit Kat
might have been inspired by such traditional confections. But the Kit Kat
is not a chocolate wafer cookie-type thing. Are we sure that the BrE Kit
Kat and the AmE Kit Kat are one and the same sort of thing?
Simon R. Hughes
> Simon R. Hughes wrote:
> > Thus spake Maria Conlon:
>
> >> <laughter> [in response to RF's post]
> >>
> >> Do you realize, Richard, that you have taken on not only the people
> >> of England, but of Ireland as well? Calling the men less than men is
> >> a serious thing.
> >
> > Gay is less than a man? Oh dear.
>
> Richard (Robert, to you) used this comparison:
>
> 'So it comes down to this, Matt: Do you want to be a rugged muscular
> manly football-hooligan-type user of "color" and "labor", or do you want
> to be a Gallophilic ballet-dancing girly-man RP-accented Oxbridgean user
> of "colour" and "labour"?'
>
> Sounds like "less than men" to me. "Girly-man" alone hints at that,
> don't you think?
OK, so let's pretend it wasn't supposed to be a homosexual
stereotype. He was saying that girlhood is some lesser state of
being than manhood. You would agree with such a sentiment?
> >> You may be hearing from them, and despite what others in aue may say,
> >> the Irish are a quick-tempered group. (I'm going by the way my
> >> father-in-law behaved almost to the end of his life.)
> >
> > He liked the ballet?
>
> To watch sometimes on TV, perhaps. I mentioned him because of his
> Irishness (born and raised there) and behavior. No matter how he spelled
> certain words, he would take exception to what Richard said, and Richard
> would be the sadder for it.
In the spirit of total disclosure, let me state here that I think
the ballet is as boring to watch as a game of football. I think the
game of football is more culturally relevant, though. (Had I the
power, I would cut funding to the ballet (and the opera)
completely.)
Yet my spelling is self-consciously, and reactionarily, British.
Simon R. Hughes
> Before this gets too serious, "girly-man" is the hook to hang a routine on
> that evokes the "Hans und Franz" segment of _Saturday Night Live_ some
> years ago, which in turn may evoke the newly relevant Governor of
> California, his history, and his recent campaign. Anyone who didn't look
> like the old (WITS "young" (ObBob)) Arnold could count on being called a
> girly-man, as could some who did.
So allusions to Mark Twain's usage of "nigger" are acceptable, too,
right? As long as they're offered in a spirit of fun, perhaps.
Simon R. Hughes
>
> "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
> > Thus spake R F:
[Snip]
> > Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> > homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
> > insult.
>
> I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals.
A liking for the "fine arts", being considered less than a man, and
being considered feminine are all traditional, negative stereotypes
of homosexuals.
Simon R. Hughes
> In the
> Netherlands and places like that, where (white) people worship famed
> computer scientist and TeX inventor Don Knuth as a "Grand Wizard", things
> like that might fly, but it can't happen here, OSIWT.
You shouldn't throw stones any more, Robert. Despite Fr Aman's
attempt at absolution, your sins are still as scarlet.
R J Valentine
} Thus spake R J Valentine:
}
}> Before this gets too serious, "girly-man" is the hook to hang a routine on
}> that evokes the "Hans und Franz" segment of _Saturday Night Live_ some
}> years ago, which in turn may evoke the newly relevant Governor of
}> California, his history, and his recent campaign. Anyone who didn't look
}> like the old (WITS "young" (ObBob)) Arnold could count on being called a
}> girly-man, as could some who did.
}
} So allusions to Mark Twain's usage of "nigger" are acceptable, too,
} right? As long as they're offered in a spirit of fun, perhaps.
Nigger Joe on the raft and all? Yeah, I suppose so, though that word has
wider usage. Ugly John and Dago Red also have a certain evocatability,
but I don't guess I'd use the words in isolation much. Has "girly-man"
been used elsewhere with any sting to it? The only other place I've heard
it was on _Saturday Night Live_, but I'm willing to avoid it if it causes
people pain, or if it's the standard Schimpfwort for a particular group,
beyond being a direction on a continuum. Is "manly-man" equally
offensive? Actually, if this is a serious issue, someone ought to be
doing a better job of chiding Prof. F, because he's quick enough to catch
other hints of prejudice.
Ross Howard
wrought:
They used to be covered in the quite acceptable Rowntree's chocolate.
Now they're covered in Nestlé chocolate, which is about as acceptable
as Hershey's -- i.e. not.
ObEsity: Twixes are called Snickers in Europe now, in apparent homage
to the popular British expression "Don't get your snickers in a twix."
***********
Ross Howard
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Ross Howard wrote:
> ObEsity: Twixes are called Snickers in Europe now, in apparent homage
> to the popular British expression "Don't get your snickers in a twix."
Wait, so we have:
AmE "Twix" = BrE "Snickers"
AmE "Snickers" = BrE "Mars"
AmE "Mars Bar" = BrE ?
Something's not right here.
The British delicacy known as a "deep-fried Mars bar" -- I thought that
was a deep-fried AmE Snickers bar.
We need a true international person like Fran Kemmish to sort this out.
Mike Barnes
>
>On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, MC wrote:
>
>> According to Nestlé's site, the Kit-Kat biscuit was named after an 18th
>> century British political club (Whig to be precise) called the Kit-Kat
>> Club.
>
>How can you call the Kit Kat a "biscuit"? AFAWK, BrE "biscuit" means
>usually (a) AmE "cookie", and less usually (b) AmE "cracker". We agree
>that the Kit Kat is more sweet than savoury. So if it's a biscuit it has
>to be a cookie.
The KitKat contains a wafer biscuit, that is much lighter and thinner
than any "cookie" I can imagine. You should probably modify your
understanding of what we Brits call a "biscuit".
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Ross Howard
wrought:
>
Oh. Angabaht. I'm confused now. Twix is called something else here. I
thought it was "Snickers". If it isn't, then it's not a Mars bar,
because they're still called "Mars". I think.
I'll check the next time I go to a *chuchería* joint.
***********
Ross Howard
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, R J Valentine wrote:
> Ugly John and Dago Red also have a certain evocatability,
> but I don't guess I'd use the words in isolation much.
Well, "Dago Red" was the nickname of Father Mulcahy in _MASH_ (NTBCW
_M*A*S*H_), IIRC. Also a novel by whatsisname, the guy from
Colorado who was friends with Mencken. I don't know from Ugly John, but I
recently mentioned _The Ugly George Show_ in a posting responsive to
statements by A Sacred Raisin regarding Welfare Island.
> Has "girly-man"
> been used elsewhere with any sting to it? The only other place I've heard
> it was on _Saturday Night Live_, but I'm willing to avoid it if it causes
> people pain, or if it's the standard Schimpfwort for a particular group,
> beyond being a direction on a continuum.
I've only heard "girly-man" used in reference to the "Hans und Franz"
sketch on late '80s/early '90s _Saturday Night Live_.
Simon R. Hughes
Half serious. I would be content with his ceasing to throw stones.
Heavy accusations of homophobia upon one misdemeanour (hi, Rey!) are
not necessarily warranted.
So far, Robert Santana has refused to comment. Perhaps he's a little
shy.
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes wrote:
> Thus spake rzed:
> >
> > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
> > > Thus spake R F:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > > Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> > > homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
> > > insult.
> >
> > I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals.
>
> A liking for the "fine arts", being considered less than a man, and
> being considered feminine are all traditional, negative stereotypes
> of homosexuals.
Actually, I didn't mention homosexuals, nor did I have homosexuals in
mind. Also, you may be reading some condemnation into my remarks that
was not intended. I like the fine arts as much as the next
non-girly-man, and I'll bet the same is true of Dr. Rey Aman. The
interesting thing about 'Peans, from an AmE perspective, is that they can
be effete yet sort of hyper-bound to traditional gender roles at the same
time. I think you'll have found this to be especially true of Norway and
Sweden. I'll grant you that the Hiberno-Britic are a somewhat different
kettle of fish from (= HBrE "to") the Continentals.
It occurs to me that some of this is descriptive of Chuck Riggs, who's
both Hemingwayesque and foppish at the same time. But not in a European
way.
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> The name
> Kit Kat was supposedly named after the Kit Kat club, an 18th Century
> Whig literary club. As the building had very low ceilings, it could
> only accommodate paintings, which were wide and not very high. In
> the art world, these paintings were known as 'kats'. It's believed
> that Kit Kat derived its name from paintings, which had to be snapped
> off to fit into the rooms with the low ceilings. Sounds a bit bizarre
> to me!
Bizarrissimus, I'd say. Let's get the ODoP&F on the jobbie:
Kit-Cat Club
-- an association of prominent Whigs and literary figures founded in the
early part of the 18th century. [...] It was named after Kit
(Christopher) Cat, or Catling, who kept the pie-house in Shire Lane, by
Temple Bar, the original meeting place of the club.
And my ancient Brewer's DoP&F extends to include an inverted form of
your explanation:
-- a club formed about the beginning of the 18th century by the leading
Whigs of the day, and held in the house of Christopher Catt, a
pastrycook of Shire Lane, which used to run north from Temple Bar to
Carey Street (its site is now covered by the Law Courts). Christopher
Catt's mutton pies, which were eaten at the club, were also called
_kit-cats_, and in the _Spectator_ (No. IX) we are told that it was from
these the club got its name. [...] Sir Godfrey Kneller painted
forty-two portraits of the club members for Jacob Tonson, the secretary,
whose villa was at Barn Elms, where latterly the club was held. In
order to accommodate the paintings to the height of the club-room, he
was obliged to make them three-quarter lengths (28 in. by 36 in.), hence
a three-quarter portrait is still called a _kit-cat_. The set of
portraits is now in the National Portrait Gallery, London.
(I see before sending that MC has provided links to similar entries.)
Matti
rzed
> Thus spake rzed:
> >
> > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
> > > Thus spake R F:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > > Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> > > homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
> > > insult.
> >
> > I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals.
>
> A liking for the "fine arts", being considered less than a man, and
> being considered feminine are all traditional, negative stereotypes
> of homosexuals.
So I understand. But whose stereotype is it? RF says "artistic", Simon says
"you said homosexual; shame on you for stereotyping." Who is stereotyping?
BWTHDICA (or some such thing).
--
rzed
Donna Richoux
> Simon R. Hughes <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote:
>
> } Thus spake R J Valentine:
> }
> }> Before this gets too serious, "girly-man" is the hook to hang a routine on
> }> that evokes the "Hans und Franz" segment of _Saturday Night Live_ some
> }> years ago, which in turn may evoke the newly relevant Governor of
> }> California, his history, and his recent campaign. Anyone who didn't look
> }> like the old (WITS "young" (ObBob)) Arnold could count on being called a
> }> girly-man, as could some who did.
> }
> } So allusions to Mark Twain's usage of "nigger" are acceptable, too,
> } right? As long as they're offered in a spirit of fun, perhaps.
>
> Nigger Joe on the raft and all? Yeah, I suppose so, though that word has
> wider usage.
Jim. It was Jim on the raft with Huck.
And I don't understand Simon's question, or connect it to what went on
before. Is it, could Saturday Night Live have "gotten away" with a
light-hearted parody of Huckleberry Finn that used the word "nigger"?
What would qualify as "get away with" in this case? Be allowed to air?
Air without causing a loud public outcry? How loud of an outcry?
Wouldn't it depend on what SNL said?
And, Simon, you're not really implying that Mark Twain used "nigger" in
a spirit of simple merriment and buffoonery, are you? I think you know
better, but all you say is "a spirit of fun." ...It wasn't some sort of
unconscious, absent-minded racism on MT's part, either. I'd call it more
like deliberate consciousness-raising.
--
Concerned -- Donna Richoux
Simon R. Hughes
>
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes wrote:
>
> > Thus spake rzed:
> > >
> > > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
> > > > Thus spake R F:
> >
> > [Snip]
> >
> > > > Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> > > > homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
> > > > insult.
> > >
> > > I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals.
> >
> > A liking for the "fine arts", being considered less than a man, and
> > being considered feminine are all traditional, negative stereotypes
> > of homosexuals.
>
> Actually, I didn't mention homosexuals, nor did I have homosexuals in
> mind.
Right.
> Also, you may be reading some condemnation into my remarks that
> was not intended.
Right.
> I like the fine arts as much as the next
> non-girly-man, and I'll bet the same is true of Dr. Rey Aman. The
> interesting thing about 'Peans, from an AmE perspective, is that they can
> be effete yet sort of hyper-bound to traditional gender roles at the same
> time. I think you'll have found this to be especially true of Norway and
> Sweden.
Explain.
> I'll grant you that the Hiberno-Britic are a somewhat different
> kettle of fish from (= HBrE "to") the Continentals.
Ah, more racials. We give you enough time, and you'll hang yourself.
> It occurs to me that some of this is descriptive of Chuck Riggs, who's
> both Hemingwayesque and foppish at the same time. But not in a European
> way.
When was the last time you had a good shag?
Simon R. Hughes
>
> "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fda7957...@news.online.no...
> > Thus spake rzed:
> > >
> > > "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.19fd03647...@news.online.no...
> > > > Thus spake R F:
> >
> > [Snip]
> >
> > > > Sounds to me like you're guilty of negatively stereotyping
> > > > homosexuals, Dick. Shameful to use such a negative stereotype as an
> > > > insult.
> > >
> > > I must have missed the part where RF mentioned homosexuals.
> >
> > A liking for the "fine arts", being considered less than a man, and
> > being considered feminine are all traditional, negative stereotypes
> > of homosexuals.
>
> So I understand. But whose stereotype is it? RF says "artistic", Simon says
> "you said homosexual; shame on you for stereotyping." Who is stereotyping?
> BWTHDICA (or some such thing).
Society and history and our place in both is stereotyping. Or is RF
now the anti-Semite for drawing attention to the alleged anti-
Semitism he found in someone else's posting a Long Time Ago?
All I want is consistency. If he's going to yell discrimination at
every opportunity, he should at least own up to his prejudice(s).
The aue webmaster
>
We did that in 1998 - see
http://alt-usage-english.org/sym1/index_sym1.html
especially the picture "a.u.e doing what it does best". I can certainly
see KitKat and Snickers there. I don't know if any minutes were taken.
I'm sure that that tasting session came about as a result of discussion
in aue at around that time, so a Google Groups search might turn
something up.
I also found this (from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9158/kwui
ntlmktg3.html):
Mars abandoned successful European brand names in the pursuit of
standardized global brands: Raider was renamed Twix; Britain's
Marathon became Snickers and France's Bonitos became M&M.
Unfortunately the path is not as easy with Milky Way and Mars. Both
are sold worldwide but they refer to different products in different
countries. In the U.S., Milky Way has caramel and chocolate, in
Europe it has no caramel while the European version of the Mars bar
has no almond. Europeans view peanuts as something you feed horses.
To them, Hershey chocolate bars taste bitter
Personal notes: Peanuts in chocolate bars are not unknown here (e.g.
Marathon). To me Hershey's chocolate tastes not bitter but like a
mouthful of wax.
--
Mike Barnes
Webmaster, http://alt-usage-english.org/
Simon R. Hughes
Allusions to ... in a spirit of fun. I said nothing about the tone
in which Twain offered "nigger", nor his eptitude as an author.
If RF can cry "parody" to get away with negatively stereotyping
homosexuals, he should allow others the same liberty. What about
when Alec Owen came along telling a Jewish joke? RF was all over him
about his anti-Semitism, even though the context was humo(u)rous. In
that case, Alec did nothing but associate Jewish Americans with
Jewish Israelis. (I'm overlooking Alec Owen's subsequent indication
that he did harbo(u)r anti-Jewish sentiments as irrelevant--there's
no way RF could have known about that from the start.)
As I have said elsewhere, all I am looking for from RF is some
consistency. He's allowed to shout racist as long as he'll admit to
his prejudices.
Simon R. Hughes
> Ah, more racials. We give you enough time, and you'll hang yourself.
Rope. It's rope! Not time! R.O.P.E. Rope!
R F
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes wrote:
> If RF can cry "parody" to get away with negatively stereotyping
> homosexuals,
I don't believe I ever referred to homosexuals in the original posting
being discussed. That there was parody (OSLT) should be clear enough from
the reference to "football hooligans".
You can accuse me of negatively stereotyping Europeans, or
Hiberno-Britics, but it's my view that it's fair, for historical reasons,
for at least some Americans to do so.
> he should allow others the same liberty. What about
> when Alec Owen came along telling a Jewish joke? RF was all over him
> about his anti-Semitism, even though the context was humo(u)rous. In
> that case, Alec did nothing but associate Jewish Americans with
> Jewish Israelis. (I'm overlooking Alec Owen's subsequent indication
> that he did harbo(u)r anti-Jewish sentiments as irrelevant--there's
> no way RF could have known about that from the start.)
I think Alec Owen's anti-Jewish sentiments were clear from his first
posting. I believe I can prove this, if necessary.
> As I have said elsewhere, all I am looking for from RF is some
> consistency. He's allowed to shout racist as long as he'll admit to
> his prejudices.
The only prejudices I have are that the Coastal Northeast of the US is
better than the Rest of the Country, that New York (city) is better than
the rest of the Coastal Northeast, and that natives of Brooklyn are
superior to natives of other parts of New York city. Notice that I do not
say that the US is better than the rest of the world.
R F
If any stereotyping is going on here, it's in the other direction.
Remember it's Matt Davis who was the addressee.
The idea that there should be something bad or countermajoritarian about
likeing the fine arts is sort of odd to me, but I see a certain strain of
American culture that takes that view. It is the strain that, I believe,
maintains strongest links with its British descendants of common
predecessors. NTTAWWTOC.
I was observing to someone that people in the Midwest are obsessed with
sports. A casual observer of AmE culture might say that that's true of
the whole country, but I think it's more true of the Midwest and less true
of, say, certain urban population centers on the Northeastern Coast. The
Midwest is, if you will, more American than the rest of the country. Now,
fine arts? The fine arts, one, seem to be very weak in the Midwest
(CTTNEC), and that's bad, and that ain't good.
Simon R. Hughes
>
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes wrote:
>
> > If RF can cry "parody" to get away with negatively stereotyping
> > homosexuals,
>
> I don't believe I ever referred to homosexuals in the original posting
> being discussed.
That won't do. You disallow the denials of your victims; yours
should also be disallowed. You sent off enough cues to allow the
interpretation that you were negatively stereotyping homosexuals.
That interpretation stands.
> That there was parody (OSLT) should be clear enough from
> the reference to "football hooligans".
That Alec Owen's joke was a joke should have been clear enough from
the word "joke" all over it.
> You can accuse me of negatively stereotyping Europeans, or
> Hiberno-Britics, but it's my view that it's fair, for historical reasons,
> for at least some Americans to do so.
I accused you of negatively stereotyping homosexuals and then using
that negative stereotype as an insult.
> > he should allow others the same liberty. What about
> > when Alec Owen came along telling a Jewish joke? RF was all over him
> > about his anti-Semitism, even though the context was humo(u)rous. In
> > that case, Alec did nothing but associate Jewish Americans with
> > Jewish Israelis. (I'm overlooking Alec Owen's subsequent indication
> > that he did harbo(u)r anti-Jewish sentiments as irrelevant--there's
> > no way RF could have known about that from the start.)
>
> I think Alec Owen's anti-Jewish sentiments were clear from his first
> posting. I believe I can prove this, if necessary.
You tried that last time. Your prescience looked impressive only
after Owen outed himself. Your attack before he did so was
unwarranted.
> > As I have said elsewhere, all I am looking for from RF is some
> > consistency. He's allowed to shout racist as long as he'll admit to
> > his prejudices.
>
> The only prejudices I have are that the Coastal Northeast of the US is
> better than the Rest of the Country, that New York (city) is better than
> the rest of the Coastal Northeast, and that natives of Brooklyn are
> superior to natives of other parts of New York city. Notice that I do not
> say that the US is better than the rest of the world.
No, but you did negatively stereotype homosexuals and then use that
stereotype as an insult.
Disavow your homophobia[1], or refrain from ringing the alarm bells
everytime someone else says something that could, possibly, at a
stretch, be interpretted as prejudicial.
[1] Statements to the effect of "some of my best friends are gay"
won't pass muster.
R H Draney
>
>Has "girly-man"
>been used elsewhere with any sting to it? The only other place I've heard
>it was on _Saturday Night Live_, but I'm willing to avoid it if it causes
>people pain, or if it's the standard Schimpfwort for a particular group,
>beyond being a direction on a continuum. Is "manly-man" equally
>offensive?
No, because it represents an ideal rather than a deviation from one...one does
sometimes hear "manly woman" as a counterpart of "girly-man"; back in the early
1970s, cartoonist Jules Feiffer created a butch superheroine with precisely that
name....r
mb
...
> Bizarrissimus, I'd say. Let's get the ODoP&F on the jobbie:
>
> Kit-Cat Club
> a three-quarter portrait is still called a _kit-cat_. The set of
> portraits is now in the National Portrait Gallery, London.
Nice job on the origin. Look now where it has landed: a chocolate
snack in the US and canned cat food in Europe.
MC
azyt...@hotmail.com (mb) wrote:
B-b-b-b-but wait a minute...
The chocolate snack is Kit-Kat on both sides of the pond. And I think
the cat food is Kit-E-Kat, no?
david56
Don't let the Colonials fool you. There is a chocolate bar called
"Kit-Kat" in Leftpondia, but its flavour level has been artificially
reduced to satisfy palates weaned on Hershey <shudder>.
--
David
=====
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Don't let the Colonials fool you. There is a chocolate bar called
> "Kit-Kat" in Leftpondia, but its flavour level has been artificially
> reduced to satisfy palates weaned on Hershey <shudder>.
I thought the point of this section of the thread is that it's _not_ a
chocolate bar. It's in the same general family of things that chocolate
bars are also in, but as far as I can tell the Kit Kat is a class of its
own. It's a chocolate-covered wafer product.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J. Dinkin
> I was observing to someone that people in the Midwest are obsessed with
> sports. A casual observer of AmE culture might say that that's true of
> the whole country, but I think it's more true of the Midwest and less true
> of, say, certain urban population centers on the Northeastern Coast.
Tell that to Red Sox fans after last week.... <sigh>
Matti Lamprhey
> david56 <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Don't let the Colonials fool you. There is a chocolate bar called
> > "Kit-Kat" in Leftpondia, but its flavour level has been artificially
> > reduced to satisfy palates weaned on Hershey <shudder>.
>
> I thought the point of this section of the thread is that it's _not_ a
> chocolate bar. It's in the same general family of things that
> chocolate bars are also in, but as far as I can tell the Kit Kat is a
> class of its own. It's a chocolate-covered wafer product.
That's the sort of description a manufacturer can be expected to use;
for the consumer, however, I would hope that it eats less like
chocolate-flavoured wafer and more like wafer-textured chocolate.
Therefore the appropriate consumer-oriented description is "chocolate
bar".
But a "bar of chocolate" is something else.
Matti
R F
I agree that a Kit-Kat is not a "chocolate bar", but it *is*, I contend, a
"candy bar".
mb
...
> The chocolate snack is Kit-Kat on both sides of the pond.
Oh. Globalized since I last paid attention, perhaps, or limited to some countries?
> And I think
> the cat food is Kit-E-Kat, no?
Same there. Last time I paid attention, there was both Kit Kat and Kit-E-Kat.
As in: "Katzen wuerden Kit Kat waehlen" etc.
http://www.fressnapf.de/forum/entries/7,87742,0
http://www.javajim.de/kritiktank/gealdit/kitkatchunky.html
david56
>
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>
> > "Aaron J. Dinkin" <din...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote...
> > > david56 <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Don't let the Colonials fool you. There is a chocolate bar called
> > > > "Kit-Kat" in Leftpondia, but its flavour level has been artificially
> > > > reduced to satisfy palates weaned on Hershey <shudder>.
> > >
> > > I thought the point of this section of the thread is that it's _not_ a
> > > chocolate bar. It's in the same general family of things that
> > > chocolate bars are also in, but as far as I can tell the Kit Kat is a
> > > class of its own. It's a chocolate-covered wafer product.
> >
> > That's the sort of description a manufacturer can be expected to use;
> > for the consumer, however, I would hope that it eats less like
> > chocolate-flavoured wafer and more like wafer-textured chocolate.
> > Therefore the appropriate consumer-oriented description is "chocolate
> > bar".
I utterly concur.
> > But a "bar of chocolate" is something else.
Indeed.
> I agree that a Kit-Kat is not a "chocolate bar", but it *is*, I contend, a
> "candy bar".
Well, it's not a candy bar in the UK, as we don't have any of those.
--
David
=====
Robert Bannister
> Simon R. Hughes wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>Matt Davis wrote:
>>
>
>>>>Have you never considered the fact that "colour" is more aesthetically
>>>>pleasing when spelt that way? "color" and "labor" are plain ugly.
>>>
>
> Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
> Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
> except French.
What makes you think the source of these words was Latin? Surely they
all arrived in English via French.
--
Rob Bannister
AB
> Headteacher Nick Rudman told BBC Look East that when pupils there leave
> the "u" out of the word labour, they are soon put right.
>
What the hell is a "headteacher"? Is it some form of Newspeak for "headmaster"?
Don Aitken
On the offchance that you might be serious, it appears in the name of
at least two professional bodies:
http://www.ahts.org/
http://www.primaryheads.org.uk/
although another prefers "head teacher":
http://www.naht.org.uk/
Google finds 49,600 "headteacher" and 71,300 "head teacher". The term
has been in common use for at least forty years. I know, because my
father was one.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
MC
Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
> > Spelt, shmelt. You're wrong. "Color" and "labor" are true to their
> > Latin source and are the forms used in all major Romance languages
> > except French.
>
> What makes you think the source of these words was Latin? Surely they
> all arrived in English via French.
I don't know, 'owevaire... ze French word is <<couleur>> which leads me to
wonder if this might not be ze hareng rouge, un peu.
MC
and...@users.sf.net (AB) wrote:
If so it's double-plus good, don'tcha think?
MC
david56 <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > I agree that a Kit-Kat is not a "chocolate bar", but it *is*, I contend, a
> > "candy bar".
>
> Well, it's not a candy bar in the UK, as we don't have any of those.
We'll put together a CARE package right away. Your suffering is almost
at an end.