Occupation-derived surnames

[Ramapriya D]

It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why is this so?

Thanks in advance,

Ramapriya

[Jack Campin]

> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such
> as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper
> but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's
> got to be *the* most traditional of occupations.

Scottish musicologist H.G. Farmer
Scottish car-repair mogul Sir Tom Farmer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Mark Brader]

Ramapriya D:

> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
> occupations. Why is this so?

I don't know why you've never come across it. Here are some examples,
if Wikipedia is correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_(surname)

Of that list, two names are familiar to me as real people, and one
as a fictional character. Curiously, all three have similar first
names: Fannie Farmer, Frances Farmer, and Frank Farmer.

I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)

it does exist.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | And perhaps another sigquote for Mark, who
m...@vex.net | seems to be running low... --Steve Summit

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[David Kleinecke]

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 6:15:48 PM UTC-7, Ramapriya D wrote:
> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why is this so?

Pure accident.

Farmer is a fairly common last name.

[RH Draney]

On 5/13/2017 6:24 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
>
> I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>
> it does exist.

"I want the following men to fall in on the double: Schmidt! Herrera!
Kovacs!"...

Would the OP accept occupational names with nonstandard spelling?...my
mother's maiden name was Shepard....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Related to Sam or Jean or Alan?

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <53685f6e-1007-4d36...@googlegroups.com>,

Ramapriya D <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>occupations. Why is this so?

Precisely because it's a very common occupation. Such surnames were
originally epithets: John Baker as distinct from John Smith as
distinct from John Cooper as distinct from John the Bishop's
man(servant). In a typical medieval town, there would be very few
people engaged in those occupations, so they would serve a
distinguishing function -- whereas "farmer" was the most common
occupation and therefore would not distinguish anyone. Thus, John
Farmer is more likely to be someone who *used to be* a farmer, or who
was the son of a farmer but moved to the city (or didn't inherit). In
some cases, such names may be alterations (e.g., anglicized) or
calques of foreign names (which may or may not have had any connection
to occupations).

I have no idea what a Wollmann did in Prussia at the point when
surnames became formalized. We assume it was something to do with
wool. And we don't know whether our earliest ancestor of that name
actually had anything to do with that trade (indeed, we don't know
anything at all about said ancestor, unless more information has come
to light in the past few decades since my grandfather died).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:
> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across
> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
> is this so?

According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation

> Thanks in advance,
> Ramapriya

India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and
Merchant. Late Field Marshal Maneckshaw's daughter Sherry married a
Batliwala (Bottler) and there's Motorwala, Cyclewala, Screwala, etc.
Sodabottleopenerwala strikes me as funny.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-behind-the-surnames-like-motorwala-chandiwala-etc-of-Parsi-people

[Ramapriya D]

It does appear so, yes. I'm sure I'll come across a Farmer someday. Garrett's take on the rarity of the surname too made for interesting reading.

Ramapriya

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/13/17 9:05 PM, RH Draney wrote:
> On 5/13/2017 6:24 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>>
>> it does exist.
>
> "I want the following men to fall in on the double: Schmidt! Herrera!
> Kovacs!"...

...

What happened to LeFevre, Kowalski, Taliaferro, and Tolliver?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Tobin]

In article <bogus-5A80B3....@four.schnuerpel.eu>,

Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such
>> as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper
>> but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's
>> got to be *the* most traditional of occupations.

>Scottish musicologist H.G. Farmer
>Scottish car-repair mogul Sir Tom Farmer

Conqueror of Southern Scotland Agricola

-- Richard

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

My local phone directory, for a quarter of Northern Ireland, has 12
entries for people with the surname Farmer.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 13 May 2017 20:24:53 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Ramapriya D:
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>> occupations. Why is this so?
>
>I don't know why you've never come across it. Here are some examples,
>if Wikipedia is correct:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_(surname)
>
>Of that list, two names are familiar to me as real people, and one
>as a fictional character. Curiously, all three have similar first
>names: Fannie Farmer, Frances Farmer, and Frank Farmer.
>
>I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>
>it does exist.

I've come across it in the older form "Iremonger".
https://www.houseofnames.com/iremonger-family-crest

The ancient name of Iremonger finds its origins with the ancient
Anglo-Saxon culture of Britain. It comes from a name for a person
who worked in iron. The surname Iremonger originally derived from
the Old English components iren and mangere which signified the
profession of ironmonger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iremonger

There was a man named Tom Iremonger who was a memeber of the UK
parliament from 1954 to 1974:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Iremonger

[Jack Campin]

>> I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>> it does exist.
> I've come across it in the older form "Iremonger".
> https://www.houseofnames.com/iremonger-family-crest
> The ancient name of Iremonger finds its origins with the ancient
> Anglo-Saxon culture of Britain. It comes from a name for a person
> who worked in iron. The surname Iremonger originally derived from
> the Old English components iren and mangere which signified the
> profession of ironmonger.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iremonger
> There was a man named Tom Iremonger who was a memeber of the UK
> parliament from 1954 to 1974:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Iremonger

And an Irish poet/diplomat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Iremonger

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:

> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
> occupations. Why is this so?
>

I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
(Schumacher, yes, but in German.)

According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
the UK in 1998.

1 Smith
31 Cooper
37 Baker
215 Potter
8418 Ironmonger
---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."

I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
the ranks are more or less what I expected.

So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
not the frequencies.

Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.


--
athel

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-14 18:52, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Sat, 13 May 2017 18:15:46 -0700 (PDT), Ramapriya D
> <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus
>> far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most
>> traditional of occupations. Why is this so?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>

> My local phone directory, for a quarter of Northern Ireland, has 12
> entries for people with the surname Farmer.

36 in the Newcastle phone book.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Ross]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 10:33:51 PM UTC+12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>
> > It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
> > Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
> > come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
> > occupations. Why is this so?
> >
> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>
> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> the UK in 1998.
>
> 1 Smith
> 31 Cooper
> 37 Baker
> 215 Potter
> 8418 Ironmonger
> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."

William Lee "Bill" Shoemaker, legendary American jockey. Also the principal
at a school where my mother used to teach.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-05-14 03:56:37 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:

> In article <53685f6e-1007-4d36...@googlegroups.com>,
> Ramapriya D <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>> occupations. Why is this so?
>
> Precisely because it's a very common occupation. Such surnames were
> originally epithets: John Baker as distinct from John Smith as
> distinct from John Cooper as distinct from John the Bishop's
> man(servant). In a typical medieval town, there would be very few
> people engaged in those occupations, so they would serve a
> distinguishing function -- whereas "farmer" was the most common
> occupation and therefore would not distinguish anyone. Thus, John
> Farmer is more likely to be someone who *used to be* a farmer, or who
> was the son of a farmer but moved to the city (or didn't inherit).

Exactly that sort of argument explains why Cornish is much more common
in Devon than in Cornwall, and Devenish is much more common in Somerset
than in Devon. My great^12 grandfather Robert Cornyshe was already in
Devon in 1500, but probably an ancestor came to Devon from Cornwall at
about the time that surnames were becoming stable.

> In
> some cases, such names may be alterations (e.g., anglicized) or
> calques of foreign names (which may or may not have had any connection
> to occupations).
>
> I have no idea what a Wollmann did in Prussia at the point when
> surnames became formalized. We assume it was something to do with
> wool. And we don't know whether our earliest ancestor of that name
> actually had anything to do with that trade (indeed, we don't know
> anything at all about said ancestor, unless more information has come
> to light in the past few decades since my grandfather died).
>
> -GAWollman


--

athel

[Ross]

I think I've seen people named Doctor and Engineer. And Ismail Merchant,
film producer, is quite well known through Merchant-Ivory pictures.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-05-14 06:00:59 +0000, Dingbat said:

> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across
>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
>> is this so?
>
> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Ramapriya
>
> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and
> Merchant.

Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).

> Late Field Marshal Maneckshaw's daughter Sherry married a
> Batliwala (Bottler) and there's Motorwala, Cyclewala, Screwala, etc.
> Sodabottleopenerwala strikes me as funny.
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-behind-the-surnames-like-motorwala-chandiwala-etc-of-Parsi-people
>

--
athel

[Janet]

In article <enqq4c...@mid.individual.net>, acor...@imm.cnrs.fr
says...

The surname Farmer denotes a rural tax collector (from French fermier)
rather than someone who tends the land with crops and livestock.

Janet

[Cheryl]

Nurse is a common enough surname around here, although the family I knew
weren't Parsis. 'Bishop' is even more common.

--
Cheryl

[RH Draney]

Well, Grandpa's brother was named Alan....r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 12:33:48 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>> occupations. Why is this so?
>>
>I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
>whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
>(Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>
>According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
>the UK in 1998.
>
> 1 Smith
> 31 Cooper
> 37 Baker
> 215 Potter
>8418 Ironmonger
>---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."

However, for Shoesmith:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=SHOESMITH&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name

>
>I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
>the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>
>So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
>not the frequencies.
>
>Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
>When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.

--

[Don Phillipson]

"Ramapriya D" <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:53685f6e-1007-4d36...@googlegroups.com...

> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
> Smith, Potter,
> Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across a
> Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
> is this so?

These intuitions may be unfactual e.g.
-- Fanny Farmer (1857-1915) was author of the most famous
American cookbook (and a real person, not a brand name.)
-- "Ironmonger" is not a "fairly common" name, e.g. scarcer
than Eisenhower (German for iron miner.)
The OP's intuitions about Baker, Smith and Potter seem correct.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Whiskers]

Farokh Engineer - cricket star in the '60s and '70s.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Yes. "Farmer" is really someone who has been allocated a section of
land; a tenant.

We still use the close-to-the-original sense of "farm" in the phrase
"farm out" jobs/tasks.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/farm

verb

2. "farm someone/something out" with object
Send out or subcontract work to others.

‘it saves time and money to farm out some writing work to
specialized companies’

More, selected, examples:
‘A lot of government services are farmed out to the private
sector.’
‘Rather, they are automatically farmed out to subcontractors, who
ship finished products directly to customers.’
‘All too frequently major issues that need decisions are farmed out
to outsiders to make reports.’
‘Many tasks have been farmed out to private, unaccountable
contractors.’

2.1 Arrange for a child to be looked after by someone, usually for
payment.
‘the babies are farmed out for five years’

2.2 dated Send a sports player temporarily to another team in
return for a fee.
‘he was farmed out in 1938 and '39 and came back for two games in
1940’

As for 2.1:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/baby_farm

baby farm
noun
historical, derogatory

A place where the lodging and care of (typically unwanted) babies or
young children is undertaken for profit; specifically one where the
care is unsatisfactory, children may be neglected, and mortality
rates are high.

It is not a farm in the agricultural sense. A baby farm does not breed
babies.

[Whiskers]

The OED entries for 'Farmer' (there are two) read like a social history.
Far too much stuff to quote in full. The 'growing food' meaning seems
to date only from the late sixteenth century - and several other
meanings continue into the present, or nearly so.

[occam]

On 14/05/2017 03:15, Ramapriya D wrote:
> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why is this so?
>

I'm looking forward to more modern occupations infiltrating the
surnames' roster - I know, unlikely. I'd love to see Mr. PRman, Ms.
Software, Mr. Advert, Phil Insurer, Tom Taxidriver, Jane Checkout...

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 03:43:27 -0700 (PDT), Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>

I've met several Doktors that were Doctors. At the medical
conventions I attended everyone wore name tags, so a Dr Doktor was
noticed. Never saw a "Doctor" ("c" instead of "k") though.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Did you ever meet a Major Major?


--
athel

[Peter Young]

Working at Cheltenham General Hospital many years ago there was a
Nurse Nurse. Dr Doctor is not unknown, too.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Peter Young]

On 14 May 2017 Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2017-05-14 06:00:59 +0000, Dingbat said:

>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:
>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
>>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
>>> across
>>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
>>> is this so?
>>
>> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
>> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
>> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Ramapriya
>>
>> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
>> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and
>> Merchant.

> Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).

The name of one of our local bus companies.

http://www.marchants-coaches.com/

For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
long-distance bus.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-14 20:42, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Exactly that sort of argument explains why Cornish is much more common
> in Devon than in Cornwall, and Devenish is much more common in Somerset
> than in Devon. My great^12 grandfather Robert Cornyshe was already in
> Devon in 1500, but probably an ancestor came to Devon from Cornwall at
> about the time that surnames were becoming stable.

The surname Walsh (or Breathnach in the Irish language) is, I suspect,
more common in Ireland than in England. It means someone from Wales.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-14 23:10, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I've met several Doktors that were Doctors. At the medical
> conventions I attended everyone wore name tags, so a Dr Doktor was
> noticed. Never saw a "Doctor" ("c" instead of "k") though.

Doctor Doctor my baby's sick
(Gonorrhea, gonorrhea).

[Peter Moylan]

This thread keeps reminding me of a Larry Niven short story (called One
Face, IIRC) where the characters' surnames are things like Zooman,
Spacercaptain, Astrophysics, FTLdrives, Farmer, ... .

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 14:31:27 +0100, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
wrote:

A former head of the judiciary in England and Wales is Igor Judge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Judge,_Baron_Judge

He was know to the news media as Judge Judge.

As this report of a farewell event in 2013 when he retired as Lord Chief
Justice says:
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jul/30/lord-chief-justice-igor-judge

So farewell then, Judge Judge – a title he never held, except in the
imagination of some reporters.

[CDB]

On 5/13/2017 9:22 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
> Ranjit:

>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as
>> Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've
>> never thus far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the*
>> most traditional of occupations.

> Scottish musicologist H.G. Farmer Scottish car-repair mogul Sir Tom
> Farmer

At least two Franceses Farmer, one of them going by "Fanny", and more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_(surname)

Disfarmer was a very interesting portrait photographer. His family had
been farmers, though not under that name, and he wanted to make a clean
break for it. There is a documentary about him that is worth seeing,
and many clips on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0yF2ovV-0A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Disfarmer

[Peter T. Daniels]

Wow, your great-uncle was the first American in Space! (If it's such a rare name.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 9:37:26 AM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
> On 14 May 2017 Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> > On 2017-05-14 06:00:59 +0000, Dingbat said:
>
> >> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:
> >>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
> >>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
> >>> across
> >>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
> >>> is this so?
> >>
> >> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
> >> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
> >> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
> >>
> >>> Thanks in advance,
> >>> Ramapriya
> >>
> >> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
> >> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and
> >> Merchant.
>
> > Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).
>
> The name of one of our local bus companies.
>
> http://www.marchants-coaches.com/
>
> For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
> long-distance bus.

Was it you who previously implied that that's unfamiliar in AmE?

[bebe...@aol.com]

Neither is Dr Procter/Proctor, but not all of them are proctologists.

[the Omrud]

On 14/05/2017 02:24, Mark Brader wrote:
> Ramapriya D:

>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>> occupations. Why is this so?
>

> I don't know why you've never come across it. Here are some examples,
> if Wikipedia is correct:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_(surname)
>
> Of that list, two names are familiar to me as real people, and one
> as a fictional character. Curiously, all three have similar first
> names: Fannie Farmer, Frances Farmer, and Frank Farmer.
>
> I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>
> it does exist.

Philip José Farmer is familiar to me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Jos%C3%A9_Farmer

--
David

[Ramapriya D]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 2:33:51 PM UTC+4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>
> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> the UK in 1998.
>
> 1 Smith
> 31 Cooper
> 37 Baker
> 215 Potter
> 8418 Ironmonger
> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>
> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>
> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
> not the frequencies.
>
> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
>
>

> --
> athel


The responses clearly point to my mistaken perception; I went by my never having coming across a Farmer.

Is Farrier too a surname or is it too obscure to qualify as a mainstream occupation as such?

Ramapriya

[Mack A. Damia]

Also, consider, PROCTOR, the origin of my name ("E by gum").

The name is a variant of the Roman "procurator".

Was this an "occupation" or an appointment? Currently, the Queen's
Proctor (or King's Proctor) is the proctor or solicitor representing
the Crown in the courts of probate and divorce.

Does the monarch select and appoint the Proctor?

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> I've met several Doktors that were Doctors. At the medical
> conventions I attended everyone wore name tags, so a Dr Doktor was
> noticed. Never saw a "Doctor" ("c" instead of "k") though.
>

Those doctors named "Doktor" were most likely Jews. "Doktor" and
"Doctor" are not uncommon Ashkenazi surnames. Also "Doctorov" and variants.

(Now wait for insane PeteY Daniels screech again "antisemite!")

BTW, "Aman" is also an occupation-derived surname. Originally
Celtic-Germanic "Ambahtmanno" (a cognate of _ombudsman_), then over the
past 2000 years, "Ambetmann" --> Amtmann --> Ammann --> Aman.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Did you ever meet a Major Major?
>

No, but a marshal Marshall at the San Francisco Federal Building.

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

In article
<7r0hhcp1ab06m35m5...@4ax.com>,
Mack A. Damia <drstee...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
> [...]

> Also, consider, PROCTOR, the origin of my name ("E by
> gum").
>
> The name is a variant of the Roman "procurator".
>
> Was this an "occupation" or an appointment? Currently,
> the Queen's Proctor (or King's Proctor) is the proctor or
> solicitor representing the Crown in the courts of probate
> and divorce.
>
> Does the monarch select and appoint the Proctor?

So "Proctor" does not come from proctology or proctologist?

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://bit.do/jaimaharaj

[bebe...@aol.com]

Funny that, through etymological pranks, a Celtic-Germanic name gave rise to an Arabic-sounding one to uninformed ears (mine, for that matter).

[GordonD]

On 14/05/2017 11:41, Ross wrote:

> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 10:33:51 PM UTC+12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>>

>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of

>>> occupations. Why is this so?

>>>
>> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
>> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
>> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>>
>> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
>> the UK in 1998.
>>
>> 1 Smith
>> 31 Cooper
>> 37 Baker
>> 215 Potter
>> 8418 Ironmonger
>> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>

> William Lee "Bill" Shoemaker, legendary American jockey. Also the principal
> at a school where my mother used to teach.
>

Also the planetary scientist Eugene Shoemaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Merle_Shoemaker
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[David Kleinecke]

Grayhound almost made it to being generic for long haul
buses in the US. But now that urge has receded. (As has
formica for plastic laminate.)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Mine too, though I've known Rey (at least, I've known his posts) for years.

Try this for information about his and other names are pronounced:

https://www.englishforums.com/English/PronunciationLieblichOtherRegulars-Names/hxnkd/post.htm


--
athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT), Ramapriya D
<d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:

Farrier is also a surname.

http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=FARRIER&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name

Occupational surnames were introduced hundreds of years ago in Britain.
Once a person had acquired such a surname it was passed on to children,
grandchildren and so on regardless of their occupations. An occupational
surname could still exist today even if that occupation no longer
exists.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

bebe...@aol.com a écrit :

My name is often mistaken for a Jewish one because of "-man" (as in
Goldman, Silverman, Adelman) or an Arabic one, because _aman_ is an
Arabic noun ("grace"; "peace," etc.). It's just a good thing that most
people don't know what _aman_ means in Mongolian slang.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 16:41:54 GMT, alt.fan.j...@googlegroups.com
(Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:

>In article
><7r0hhcp1ab06m35m5...@4ax.com>,
>Mack A. Damia <drstee...@yahoo.com> posted:
>>
>> [...]
>> Also, consider, PROCTOR, the origin of my name ("E by
>> gum").
>>
>> The name is a variant of the Roman "procurator".
>>
>> Was this an "occupation" or an appointment? Currently,
>> the Queen's Proctor (or King's Proctor) is the proctor or
>> solicitor representing the Crown in the courts of probate
>> and divorce.
>>
>> Does the monarch select and appoint the Proctor?
>
>So "Proctor" does not come from proctology or proctologist?

That is from the Greek. Proctor/Procurator is from the Roman.

[Peter Young]

Not I, but that terminology has been found obscure by Leftpondians
with whom I have been talking.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:31:27 PM UTC+3, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> bebe...@aol.com a écrit :
> >
> > Reinhold {Rey} Aman a écrit :
> >> Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've met several Doktors that were Doctors. At the medical
> >>> conventions I attended everyone wore name tags, so a Dr Doktor
> >>> was noticed. Never saw a "Doctor" ("c" instead of "k") though.
> >>>
> >> Those doctors named "Doktor" were most likely Jews. "Doktor" and
> >> "Doctor" are not uncommon Ashkenazi surnames. Also "Doctorov" and
> >> variants.
> >>
> >> (Now wait for insane PeteY Daniels screech again "antisemite!")
> >>
> >> BTW, "Aman" is also an occupation-derived surname. Originally
> >> Celtic-Germanic "Ambahtmanno" (a cognate of _ombudsman_), then over
> >> the past 2000 years, "Ambetmann" --> Amtmann --> Ammann --> Aman.
> >
> > Funny that, through etymological pranks, a Celtic-Germanic name gave
> > rise to an Arabic-sounding one to uninformed ears (mine, for that
> > matter).
> >
> My name is often mistaken for a Jewish one because of "-man" (as in
> Goldman, Silverman, Adelman) or an Arabic one, because _aman_ is an

'ama:n "security (through safeguarding), safeguarding, protection."

[Cheryl]

On 2017-05-14 8:03 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>

>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus
>> far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most
>> traditional of occupations. Why is this so?
>>

> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>
> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> the UK in 1998.
>
> 1 Smith
> 31 Cooper
> 37 Baker
> 215 Potter
> 8418 Ironmonger
> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>
> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>
> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken, not
> the frequencies.
>
> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
>
>

I knew a Schumacher family once, but they were of course German. I don't
think I've met a person of English ancestry named Shoemaker.

--
Cheryl

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:39:14 PM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
> On 14 May 2017 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 9:37:26 AM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:

> >>> Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).
> >> The name of one of our local bus companies.
> >> http://www.marchants-coaches.com/
> >> For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
> >> long-distance bus.
> > Was it you who previously implied that that's unfamiliar in AmE?
>
> Not I, but that terminology has been found obscure by Leftpondians
> with whom I have been talking.

Bcause why would you use an (a) old-fashioned (b) polysemous word when plain old
"bus" is readily available?

"Coach" invokes horse-drawn vehicles, hence the earlier "motor coach."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:27:40 PM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2017 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT), Ramapriya D
> <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Is Farrier too a surname or is it too obscure to qualify as a mainstream occupation as such?
>

> Farrier is also a surname.
>
> http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=FARRIER&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name

Famed singer Kathleen Ferrier.

Or was she in the water-borne rather than the land-borne transportation industry?

[Cheryl]

On 2017-05-14 11:01 AM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 14 May 2017 Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:01:01 PM UTC+12, Dingbat wrote:

>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:

>>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
>>>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
>>>> across
>>>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
>>>> is this so?
>>>

>>> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
>>> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
>>> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>> Ramapriya
>>>
>>> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
>>> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and

>>> Merchant. Late Field Marshal Maneckshaw's daughter Sherry married a
>>> Batliwala (Bottler) and there's Motorwala, Cyclewala, Screwala, etc.
>>> Sodabottleopenerwala strikes me as funny.
>>> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-behind-the-surnames-like-mot
>>> orwala-chandiwala-etc-of-Parsi-people
>
>> I think I've seen people named Doctor and Engineer. And Ismail Merchant,
>> film producer, is quite well known through Merchant-Ivory pictures.
>
> Working at Cheltenham General Hospital many years ago there was a
> Nurse Nurse. Dr Doctor is not unknown, too.

One of the Nurses I knew was a Dr. Nurse. I can't remember offhand if a
member of the next generation went to medical school, although I've
encountered a few Nurses who aren't in medical occupations.

That reminds me, there have been at least two Dr. Angels.

--
Cheryl

[charles]

In article <976c1d3c5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,

and recently (but he retired) there was: Judge Judge

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 10:52:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Context usually makes clear whether a horse-drawn vehicle is meant by
"coach".

In BrE a "coach" is a specific type of a bus.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/coach

1 British A comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer
journeys.

as modifier ‘a coach trip’

Then:

2 British A railway carriage.

2.1 North American The cheapest class of seating in an
aircraft or train.

3 A closed horse-drawn carriage.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I wonder.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/name-origin?surname=ferrier

Ferrier Name Meaning

Scottish: occupational name for a smith, one who shoed horses,
Middle English and Old French ferrier, from medieval Latin
ferrarius, from ferrus ‘horseshoe’, from Latin ferrum ‘iron’.
Compare Farrar. Scottish: possibly an occupational name for a
ferryman. Black reports that lands called Ferrylands in Dumbarton,
by a ferry across the Clyde, belonged to Robert Ferrier in 1512.
Possibly southern French: occupational name for a smith, a variant
of Ferrié (see Ferrie).

[bebe...@aol.com]

I'll bite, what does it mean?

[bill van]

In article <21f915b4-8d17-4a19...@googlegroups.com>,

Always with an "e", Greyhound. I think this usage is fading now, but at
one time in western Canada, it was widely called "the dog". If you were
sending Christmas gifts to another city (from Vancouver to Calgary in
our case) at the last minute, you could depend on Greyhound to get it
there, but not the post office. So you'd pack your gifts in a solid
cardboard box with lots of packing tape and "put it on the dog".
--
bill

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>>
>> My name is often mistaken for a Jewish one because of "-man" (as in
>> Goldman, Silverman, Adelman) or an Arabic one, because _aman_ is an
>
> 'ama:n "security (through safeguarding), safeguarding, protection."
>
>> Arabic noun ("grace"; "peace," etc.).
>

I believe you, Yusuf, because you are an impeccable super-scholar. My
above statement is based on information I received decades ago from my
(now late) friend J Milton Cowan, who edited Hans Wehr's
_A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic_.

As the Greeks exclaim, "Aman! Aman!"

[Tony Cooper]

RedCoach is a bus line that provides transportation to various cities
in Florida. They advertise as a "luxury" form of intercity
transportation.

When my brother last visited this country, his return flight to
Denmark was from Miami. He took a RedCoach from Orlando and had good
words about it. Cheaper and more flexible than the train, more
comfortable than a Greyhound, and far less hassle than flying.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Mark Brader]

Peter Duncanson:
> > My local phone directory, for a quarter of Northern Ireland, has 12
> > entries for people with the surname Farmer.

Peter Moylan:
> 36 in the Newcastle [Australia] phone book.

46 in the 2008 Toronto book. Only 2 Ironmongers, though.
--
Mark Brader | "Are you coming to bed?"
Toronto | "I can't. This is important... Someone is WRONG on the Internet."
m...@vex.net | --Randall Munroe

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:22:04 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 May 2017 10:52:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:39:14 PM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
>>> On 14 May 2017 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> > On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 9:37:26 AM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
>>
>>> >>> Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).
>>> >> The name of one of our local bus companies.
>>> >> http://www.marchants-coaches.com/
>>> >> For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
>>> >> long-distance bus.
>>> > Was it you who previously implied that that's unfamiliar in AmE?
>>>
>>> Not I, but that terminology has been found obscure by Leftpondians
>>> with whom I have been talking.
>>
>>Bcause why would you use an (a) old-fashioned (b) polysemous word when plain old
>>"bus" is readily available?
>>
>>"Coach" invokes horse-drawn vehicles, hence the earlier "motor coach."
>
>Context usually makes clear whether a horse-drawn vehicle is meant by
>"coach".
>
>In BrE a "coach" is a specific type of a bus.

Those Americans who use "bus" often use "Greyhound" as a synonym for a
vehicle taken for intercity travel. No one thinks it means
transportation by dog cart.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <enqtq9...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
wrote:

> On 2017-05-14 8:13 AM, Ross wrote:

> > On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:01:01 PM UTC+12, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:
> >>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
> >>> Smith,
> >>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
> >>> across
> >>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations.
> >>> Why
> >>> is this so?
> >>
> >> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
> >> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
> >> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
> >>
> >>> Thanks in advance,
> >>> Ramapriya
> >>
> >> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
> >> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and

> >> Merchant. Late Field Marshal Maneckshaw's daughter Sherry married a
> >> Batliwala (Bottler) and there's Motorwala, Cyclewala, Screwala, etc.
> >> Sodabottleopenerwala strikes me as funny.
> >> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-behind-the-surnames-like-motorwal
> >> a-chandiwala-etc-of-Parsi-people
> >
> > I think I've seen people named Doctor and Engineer. And Ismail Merchant,
> > film producer, is quite well known through Merchant-Ivory pictures.
> >

> Nurse is a common enough surname around here, although the family I knew
> weren't Parsis. 'Bishop' is even more common.

I was told that Bishop comes from the servants in a Bishop's household,
rather than descendants of the Bishop his own self.

--
charles

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I think you need to think of what "bite" means in French, but we'll
wait and see what Rey says.


--
athel

[Peter Young]

And I think there was a British doctor a while ago who spelled his
name Dr De'Ath.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 14 May 2017, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> posted:

There are three Saints, but no Sinners, in the Oxford Phone Book for
2014/2015.
--
Paul

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

>
> bebe...@aol.com said:
>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman a écrit :
>>>

>>> It's just a good thing that most people
>>> don't know what _aman_ means in Mongolian slang.
>>
>> I'll bite, what does it mean?
>
> I think you need to think of what "bite" means in French,
> but we'll wait and see what Rey says.
>

Close, but no cigar. I shan't say more.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 14 May 2017, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> posted:

Isn't that conventionally said as "Deeth"? World No. 17 James Death
would say so. What sport, do I hear you ask? Croquet, toujours croquet.
--
Paul

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 14 May 2017, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:

"Bus" invokes the omnibus, which was horse-drawn too.

The Holy Writ of Oxford says that "coach" derives from the town of Kocs
in Hungary, and among its meanings is "a large closed carriage for
public conveyance of passengers". The word goes back to Elizabethan
times. That's 500 years ago. The new-fangled "bus" will have to be
patient.
--
Paul

[the Omrud]

On 14/05/2017 21:29, Peter Young wrote:

> On 14 May 2017 Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> One of the Nurses I knew was a Dr. Nurse. I can't remember offhand if a
>> member of the next generation went to medical school, although I've
>> encountered a few Nurses who aren't in medical occupations.
>
>> That reminds me, there have been at least two Dr. Angels.
>
> And I think there was a British doctor a while ago who spelled his
> name Dr De'Ath.

I had a piano teacher named (and spelled) Mrs De'Ath.

--
David

[Cheryl]

Could be. When surnames were being established, bishops didn't actually
have descendants, although some of them helped pay for the care of
"nieces" and "nephews".

--
Cheryl

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Not in the case of my schoolfriend Peter De'Ath: "dee-ath".

[Peter T. Daniels]

It is in Peter Death Bredon Wimsey.

[Janet]

In article <87f4f880-9991-4ee0...@googlegroups.com>,
d.ram...@gmail.com says...

>
> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 2:33:51 PM UTC+4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > >
> > I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> > whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> > (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
> >
> > According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> > the UK in 1998.
> >
> > 1 Smith
> > 31 Cooper
> > 37 Baker
> > 215 Potter
> > 8418 Ironmonger
> > ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
> >
> > I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
> > the ranks are more or less what I expected.
> >
> > So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
> > not the frequencies.
> >
> > Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
> > When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
> >
> >

> > --
> > athel
>
>
> The responses clearly point to my mistaken perception; I went by my never having coming across a Farmer.

>
> Is Farrier too a surname

yes; sometimes spelled Ferrier.

>or is it too obscure to qualify as a mainstream occupation as such?

As an occupation, farrier is neither rare or obscure in UK.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <7r0hhcp1ab06m35m5...@4ax.com>,
drstee...@yahoo.com says...

>
> On Sun, 14 May 2017 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT), Ramapriya D
> <d.ram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> >On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 2:33:51 PM UTC+4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> >
> >> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> >> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> >> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
> >>
> >> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> >> the UK in 1998.
> >>
> >> 1 Smith
> >> 31 Cooper
> >> 37 Baker
> >> 215 Potter
> >> 8418 Ironmonger
> >> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
> >>
> >> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
> >> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
> >>
> >> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
> >> not the frequencies.
> >>
> >> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
> >> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> athel
> >
> >
> >The responses clearly point to my mistaken perception; I went by my never having coming across a Farmer.
> >

> >Is Farrier too a surname or is it too obscure to qualify as a mainstream occupation as such?
>
> Also, consider, PROCTOR, the origin of my name ("E by gum").
>
> The name is a variant of the Roman "procurator".
>
> Was this an "occupation" or an appointment? Currently, the Queen's
> Proctor (or King's Proctor) is the proctor or solicitor representing
> the Crown in the courts of probate and divorce.
>
> Does the monarch select and appoint the Proctor?

No.

You may be misinterpreting the above use of "the Crown"; it means the
state, not the Queen (or King).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crown

Janet

[quia...@yahoo.com]

On Sat, 13 May 2017 20:24:53 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Ramapriya D:

>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of

>> occupations. Why is this so?
>
>I don't know why you've never come across it. Here are some examples,
>if Wikipedia is correct:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_(surname)
>
>Of that list, two names are familiar to me as real people, and one
>as a fictional character. Curiously, all three have similar first
>names: Fannie Farmer, Frances Farmer, and Frank Farmer.
>
>I've never seen "Ironmonger" as a surname, though according to Wikipedia
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmonger_(disambiguation)
>
>it does exist.

That's the English version of 'Eisenhower / Eisenhauer'.

--
John

[Mack A. Damia]

But we learn in Comparative Politics that the monarch (Queen) is the
head of state in the UK. The PM is the head of the government.

In the USA, the POTUS is both the head of state and the head of
government.

[Jack Campin]

>>>> For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
>>>> long-distance bus.

> why would you use an (a) old-fashioned (b) polysemous word when
> plain old "bus" is readily available?
> "Coach" invokes horse-drawn vehicles, hence the earlier "motor coach."

There is no difference. The first buses were horsedrawn. The deeds
for our old flat in the centre of Edinburgh, built in 1824, have what
I think is the first surviving written use of the word "minibus" - one
of the flats on the stair was owned by a minibus driver.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Charles Bishop]

In article <billvan-2E46DF...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,
bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]

>
> Always with an "e", Greyhound. I think this usage is fading now, but at
> one time in western Canada, it was widely called "the dog". If you were
> sending Christmas gifts to another city (from Vancouver to Calgary in
> our case) at the last minute, you could depend on Greyhound to get it
> there, but not the post office. So you'd pack your gifts in a solid
> cardboard box with lots of packing tape and "put it on the dog".

One of my father's small jests was when I was driving and he was a
passenger. at a T intersection, I'd ask him if it was clear on the right
so I could make a left turn. "Only a dog", he'd say. And then, when I
began the turn: "Greyhound".

--
charles, sometimes I do it too, have to keep them alive

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/5/17 9:15 am, Ramapriya D wrote:
> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why is this so?

I have known a number of people with the surname Farmer, but I don't
think a farmer was the most traditional occupation. That might have been
peasant or villein, but you don't see those as surnames.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

The same is mainly true of "noble" surnames like King, Duke, Earl,
Baron, although in some cases one may suspect "sired by".

[Ramapriya D]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 9:55:01 PM UTC+4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=FARRIER&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name
>
> Famed singer Kathleen Ferrier.
>
> Or was she in the water-borne rather than the land-borne transportation industry?


Ah! Ferrier sounds a lot more familiar; didn't guess that that could be a variant of farrier!

Ramapriya

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/5/17 1:52 am, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 1:39:14 PM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
>> On 14 May 2017 "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 9:37:26 AM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
>
>>>>> Not uncommon in the West (at least if spelt Marchant).
>>>> The name of one of our local bus companies.
>>>> http://www.marchants-coaches.com/

>>>> For our Leftpondian readers, "Coach" is used in BrE for a
>>>> long-distance bus.

>>> Was it you who previously implied that that's unfamiliar in AmE?
>>
>> Not I, but that terminology has been found obscure by Leftpondians
>> with whom I have been talking.
>

> Bcause why would you use an (a) old-fashioned (b) polysemous word when plain old

> "bus" is readily available?
>
> "Coach" invokes horse-drawn vehicles, hence the earlier "motor coach."
>

We may use "omnibus" by all means, if we are ancient Romans. Weren't the
first buses horse-drawn too?

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/5/17 6:33 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>
>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus
>> far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most
>> traditional of occupations. Why is this so?
>>

> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>
> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
> the UK in 1998.
>
> 1 Smith
> 31 Cooper
> 37 Baker
> 215 Potter
> 8418 Ironmonger
> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>
> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>
> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken, not
> the frequencies.
>
> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
>
>

I'm not sure how much trust to place in that site. I found Patel, but
another traditional UK name like Kumah was not even listed.

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/5/17 1:15 am, GordonD wrote:
> On 14/05/2017 11:41, Ross wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 10:33:51 PM UTC+12, Athel Cornish-Bowden

>> wrote:
>>> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>>>
>>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>>>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far
>>>> come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
>>>> occupations. Why is this so?
>>>>
>>> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
>>> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
>>> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>>>
>>> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
>>> the UK in 1998.
>>>
>>> 1 Smith
>>> 31 Cooper
>>> 37 Baker
>>> 215 Potter
>>> 8418 Ironmonger
>>> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>>

>> William Lee "Bill" Shoemaker, legendary American jockey. Also the
>> principal
>> at a school where my mother used to teach.
>>
>
> Also the planetary scientist Eugene Shoemaker.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Merle_Shoemaker

Interestingly, the publicprofiler site above knows no UK surname
"Cobbler", which in my day was far more common description of the trade
than "Shoemaker", but it does know the German "Schuster", which I would
have thought was more common than "Schuhmacher".

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/5/17 12:16 am, Ramapriya D wrote:
> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 2:33:51 PM UTC+4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>

>> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
>> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
>> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>>
>> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
>> the UK in 1998.
>>
>> 1 Smith
>> 31 Cooper
>> 37 Baker
>> 215 Potter
>> 8418 Ironmonger
>> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>>

>> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
>> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>>
>> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken,
>> not the frequencies.
>>
>> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
>> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
>>
>>

>> --
>> athel
>
>
> The responses clearly point to my mistaken perception; I went by my never having coming across a Farmer.
>
> Is Farrier too a surname or is it too obscure to qualify as a mainstream occupation as such?

I think so. Also "Ferrier" and "Farr", although I don't know whether the
latter is connected.

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/5/17 1:52 am, Cheryl wrote:

> On 2017-05-14 8:03 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2017-05-14 01:15:46 +0000, Ramapriya D said:
>>
>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker,
>>> Smith, Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus
>>> far come across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most

>>> traditional of occupations. Why is this so?

>>>
>> I've known a number of Farmers, and I regard it as a familiar surname,
>> whereas I've never come across an Ironmonger or a Shoemaker.
>> (Schumacher, yes, but in German.)
>>
>> According to http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ Farmer ranked 447th in
>> the UK in 1998.
>>
>> 1 Smith
>> 31 Cooper
>> 37 Baker
>> 215 Potter
>> 8418 Ironmonger
>> ---- Shoemaker "No statistics were found for this name or category."
>>
>> I might have expected Farmer to rank higher than 447th, but in general
>> the ranks are more or less what I expected.
>>
>> So "Why is this so?": I think it's your perception that is mistaken, not
>> the frequencies.
>>
>> Also, I doubt whether Farmer is _the_ most traditional of occupations.
>> When I were a lad there were many more farm labourers than farmers.
>>
>>

> I knew a Schumacher family once, but they were of course German. I don't
> think I've met a person of English ancestry named Shoemaker.
>
I don't believe shoe maker, shoe-maker or shoemaker are English words.
Our shoes were cobbled together. I think a shoesmith worked with horses
like a farrier.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-15 05:40, Charles Bishop wrote:

> I was told that Bishop comes from the servants in a Bishop's household,
> rather than descendants of the Bishop his own self.

For a long time the Butler family held a lot of power in parts of
southern Ireland. The founder of that dynasty was literally a butler.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-15 02:52, charles wrote:
> In article <976c1d3c5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

>> On 14 May 2017 Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:01:01 PM UTC+12, Dingbat wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:45:48 AM UTC+5:30, Ramapriya D wrote:

>>>>> It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
>>>>> Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
>>>>> across
>>>>> a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of occupations. Why
>>>>> is this so?
>>>>

>>>> According to this list, 'farmer' originally meant a rent collector whereas
>>>> Ackerman, Bond and Cotterill were farming occupations:
>>>> https://surnames.behindthename.com/names/source/occupation
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>> Ramapriya
>>>>
>>>> India's Parsis have occupational surnames uncommon in the West. The
>>>> Anglicized ones that come to mind are Contractor, Doctor, Engineer and
>>>> Merchant. Late Field Marshal Maneckshaw's daughter Sherry married a
>>>> Batliwala (Bottler) and there's Motorwala, Cyclewala, Screwala, etc.
>>>> Sodabottleopenerwala strikes me as funny.
>>>> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-behind-the-surnames-like-mot
>>>> orwala-chandiwala-etc-of-Parsi-people
>
>>> I think I've seen people named Doctor and Engineer. And Ismail Merchant,
>>> film producer, is quite well known through Merchant-Ivory pictures.
>

>> Working at Cheltenham General Hospital many years ago there was a
>> Nurse Nurse. Dr Doctor is not unknown, too.
>

> and recently (but he retired) there was: Judge Judge

Not quite the same thing, but I can't resist mentioning Cardinal Sin.

[bill van]

In article <ensbj2...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

> On 14/5/17 9:15 am, Ramapriya D wrote:
> > It's fairly common to see occupation-derived surnames such as Baker, Smith,
> > Potter, Ironmonger, Shoemaker and Cooper but I've never thus far come
> > across a Farmer although it's got to be *the* most traditional of
> > occupations. Why is this so?
>
> I have known a number of people with the surname Farmer, but I don't
> think a farmer was the most traditional occupation. That might have been
> peasant or villein, but you don't see those as surnames.

I think it's important when a particular country or region began to
require surnames. I've just looked up the situation in the Netherlands,
where Napoleon Bonaparte decreed in 1811 that everyone was to follow the
French model, adopt surnames and register them with the regime. So you
got lots of people named "De Boer" -- "The Farmer" -- but few if any
that harken back to feudal times.
--
bill

[Mark Brader]

Charles Hope:

> > and recently (but he retired) there was: Judge Judge

Peter Moylan:

> Not quite the same thing, but I can't resist mentioning Cardinal Sin.

Which reminds me of Cardinal Law, who was in charge of the Boston
archdiocese at the time of their sex abuse scandal. (In the movie
"Spotlight", he was played by Len Cariou.)
--
Mark Brader | "It never occurred to me that a living person could be
Toronto | used as a blowtorch, but we admit human beings are a
m...@vex.net | bit special, don't we?" --Hal Clement: STILL RIVER

[RH Draney]

Whippet?...whippet, good....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

You mean Kumar? (As in the John Cho - Kal Penn movies.)