Three dexter buckles on a sable ground gules
Marius Hancu
These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual ones?
Also
"The arms he hugged to himself"
does it mean
"The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
--------
[Swithin Forsyte, three generations remote (or so) a yeoman, takes care
of the family's heraldry:-)]
It was Swithin who, following the impulse which sooner or later urges
thereto some member of every great family, went to the Heralds' Office,
where they assured him that he was undoubtedly of the same family as the
well-known Forsites with an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles
on a sable ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take them up.
Swithin, however, did not do this, but having ascertained that the crest
was a 'pheasant proper,' and the motto 'For Forsite,' he had the
pheasant proper placed upon his carriage and the buttons of his
coachman, and both crest and motto on his writing-paper. The arms he
hugged to himself, partly because, not having paid for them, he thought
it would look ostentatious to put them on his carriage, and he hated
ostentation, and partly because he, like any practical man all over the
country, had a secret dislike and contempt for things he could not
understand he found it hard, as anyone might, to swallow 'three dexter
buckles on a sable ground gules.'
He never forgot, however, their having told him that if he paid for them
he would be entitled to use them, and it strengthened his conviction
that he was a gentleman.
The Forsyte Saga by John Galsworthy, p. 162
http://www.online-literature.com/john-galsworthy/forsyte-saga/17
--------
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Barbara Bailey
> Hello:
>
> These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual
> ones?
It's a one-time payment.
> Also
> "The arms he hugged to himself"
> does it mean
> "The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
He kept the arms private; he didn't show them around or display them, but
cherished them all the same, because they "strengthened his conviction that
he was a gentleman."
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>Hello:
>
>These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual ones?
>
I understand that there is a one-time fee paid to the College of Arms (for
England and Wales) for a Grant of Arms.
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/02.htm
The College of Arms, although a branch of the Royal household, is
self-supporting. It has always been the case (and continues to be so)
that the funds needed for the maintenance of the College building, and
the preservation of its records are derived from the fees payable upon
grants of arms, and not from public funds.
....
When an officer of arms is the agent for a grant of arms he is remunerated
for his work on the case, and related expenses, by a payment out of the
fees a petitioner pays to the College.
>Also
>"The arms he hugged to himself"
>does it mean
>"The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
>
That's how I read it.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Hello:
>
> These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual ones?
>
> Also
> "The arms he hugged to himself"
> does it mean
> "The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
>
> --------
> [Swithin Forsyte, three generations remote (or so) a yeoman, takes care
> of the family's heraldry:-)]
>
> It was Swithin who, following the impulse which sooner or later urges
> thereto some member of every great family, went to the Heralds' Office,
> where they assured him that he was undoubtedly of the same family as the
> well-known Forsites with an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles
> on a sable ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take them up.
By the way, the only sense I can make out of this blazon is that the
buckles are gules and the field (background) is sable. This is
extremely strange, as you put colors on "metals" (gold and silver) and
vice-versa, but you can't put any "color" on any other, including red
on black. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#The_rule_of_tincture
which mentions exactly four exceptions to the rule, none of them
British.
My first thought was that "sable" and "gules" both apply to "ground",
but that makes no sense at all.
--
Jerry Friedman
Wood Avens
Sable is a fur.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Barbara Bailey
news:2kjij4pn1v86r83ta...@4ax.com:
No, in heraldry, "sable" is black. The furs are ermine and its variants,
and vair. It's basically a nonsense blazon or a garbled version Swithin
remembers. The proper form lists the field (not "ground") first, then the
charges, then any specifications about their posture or orientation, then
the color of the charges. All charges are assumed to be oriented to
dexter, unless otherwise noted. So the correct blazon would be "Sable,
three buckles gules." And the color on color rule is a strong tradition,
but wasn't always a hard and fast rule. The idea is to have high contrast
between the field and the charges, and color on color doesn't always
provide that, depending on the shades of the colors used. If the red is
bright scarlet, it would show up nicely against black, but if it's a dark
red, it won't.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
Fur enough.
But as Barbara has explained, in heraldry it is the colour black.
OED etymology for the colour sable:
[a. F. sable sable (as heraldic term: in Godef. cited only from 15th c.),
whence Sp., Pg. sable, MDu., Du. sabel. The identity of the word with
SABLE n.1 is commonly assumed, though some difficulty is presented by the
fact that the fur of the sable, as now known, is not black but brown.
Some have conjectured that it may have been customary to dye sable-fur
black (as is now often done with sealskin), perh. in order to heighten
its contrast with ermine, with which it was often worn.
The development by which the heraldic term has become a general (poetical
or rhetorical) synonym for 'black' is peculiar to English.]
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> [ ... ]
> the same family as the well-known Forsites with an 'i,' whose arms
>>>> were 'three dexter buckles on a sable ground gules,' hoping no doubt
>>>> to get him to take them up.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> By the way, the only sense I can make out of this blazon is that the
>>> buckles are gules and the field (background) is sable. This is
>>> extremely strange, as you put colors on "metals" (gold and silver) and
>>> vice-versa, but you can't put any "color" on any other, including red
>>> on black. See
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#The_rule_of_tincture
>>>
>>> which mentions exactly four exceptions to the rule, none of them
>>> British.
>>>
>>> My first thought was that "sable" and "gules" both apply to "ground",
>>> but that makes no sense at all.
>>
>> Sable is a fur.
>>
>
> No, in heraldry, "sable" is black. The furs are ermine and its variants,
> and vair. It's basically a nonsense blazon or a garbled version Swithin
> remembers.
It's been a long time since I thought I could understand heraldic
descriptions, but I read this exactly as you did, as a deliberately
garbled version. I feel sure that if Galsworthy had wanted a meaningful
one he'd have got it right. He had enough armigerous readers to point
it out if they thought he'd blundered.
> The proper form lists the field (not "ground") first, then the
> charges, then any specifications about their posture or orientation, then
> the color of the charges. All charges are assumed to be oriented to
> dexter, unless otherwise noted.
though "dexter" means left as a modern person would understand it, and
"sinister" means right, because they refer to the point of view of a
person looking over the shield towards his assailant, not the way the
assailant sees it, or the person looking at it in a book or on a
wealthy person's house or window.
> So the correct blazon would be "Sable,
> three buckles gules."
I agree, and I note that your example illustrates that an adjective
normally follows its noun, whereas in the original "dexter buckles" it
didn't.
> And the color on color rule is a strong tradition,
> but wasn't always a hard and fast rule. The idea is to have high contrast
> between the field and the charges, and color on color doesn't always
> provide that,
something that many modern designers of web pages and PowerPoint
presentations don't seem to have understood (how often have you seen
dark blue against black, or azure on sable if you prefer?).
> depending on the shades of the colors used. If the red is
> bright scarlet, it would show up nicely against black, but if it's a dark
> red, it won't.
Incidentally, did anyone mention that "gules" means red? Azure, argent,
or and vert one can understand, but gules seems on the obscure side.
(The SOED says it's cognate wth modern French "gueule", a rather rude
word for mouth, as in "ferme ta gueule", but that only partially lifts
the obscurity.)
--
athel
Marius Hancu
wrote:
> >These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual ones?
>
> I understand that there is a one-time fee paid to the College of Arms (for
> England and Wales) for a Grant of Arms.
> http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/02.htm
>
> The College of Arms, although a branch of the Royal household, is
> self-supporting. It has always been the case (and continues to be so)
> that the funds needed for the maintenance of the College building, and
> the preservation of its records are derived from the fees payable upon
> grants of arms, and not from public funds.
> ....
> When an officer of arms is the agent for a grant of arms he is remunerated
> for his work on the case, and related expenses, by a payment out of the
> fees a petitioner pays to the College.
>
> >Also
> >"The arms he hugged to himself"
> >does it mean
> >"The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
>
> That's how I read it.
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Wood Avens
<rabr...@yayhu.comm> wrote:
>Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote in
>news:2kjij4pn1v86r83ta...@4ax.com:
>> Sable is a fur.
>>
>
>No, in heraldry, "sable" is black. The furs are ermine and its variants,
>and vair.
Oops. I've been too long out of the bend.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote innews:2kjij4pn1v86r83ta...@4ax.com:
I think a herald talking to someone who didn't know the subject would
be likely to anglicize the syntax and even the vocabulary--though not
the way Swithin remembers it.
In general, the literary descriptions of shields I've seen are seldom
formally correct blazons.
> All charges are assumed to be oriented to
> dexter, unless otherwise noted.
I'd forgotten that (if I ever knew it). That redundant word is hard
to account for. Why would the chap at the Heralds' Office make that
mistake, or if he didn't, why would Swithin add a word he hadn't heard
from the chap?
People here seem to have a lot of faith in Galsworthy, but I'm
wondering whether the mistakes are his.
> So the correct blazon would be "Sable,
> three buckles gules." And the color on color rule is a strong tradition,
> but wasn't always a hard and fast rule. The idea is to have high contrast
> between the field and the charges, and color on color doesn't always
> provide that, depending on the shades of the colors used. If the red is
> bright scarlet, it would show up nicely against black, but if it's a dark
> red, it won't.
I'd be interested in an example of color on color from Britain, say
before WW I.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Silverton
> These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or
> annual ones?
> Also
> "The arms he hugged to himself"
> does it mean
> "The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
> --------
> [Swithin Forsyte, three generations remote (or so) a yeoman,
> takes care of the family's heraldry:-)]
> It was Swithin who, following the impulse which sooner or
> later urges thereto some member of every great family, went to
> the Heralds' Office, where they assured him that he was
> undoubtedly of the same family as the well-known Forsites with
> an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles on a sable
> ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take them up.
In the extensive discussion of arcane heraldic terminology no-one seems
to have said much about the "dexter buckles". I thought dexter would
mean right-handed but how is a buckle so? Perhaps, and I am disinclined
to investigate, a "buckle" is not what it seems.
I am reminded of what Chesterfield is supposed to have said to the
Garter King at Arms; "You foolish man, you don't even know your own
foolish business."
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Barbara Bailey
> Marius wrote on Fri, 05 Dec 2008 05:34:08 -0500:
>> [Swithin Forsyte, three generations remote (or so) a yeoman,
>> takes care of the family's heraldry:-)]
>
>> It was Swithin who, following the impulse which sooner or
>> later urges thereto some member of every great family, went to
>> the Heralds' Office, where they assured him that he was
>> undoubtedly of the same family as the well-known Forsites with
>> an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles on a sable
>> ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take them up.
> In the extensive discussion of arcane heraldic terminology no-one seems
> to have said much about the "dexter buckles". I thought dexter would
> mean right-handed but how is a buckle so? Perhaps, and I am disinclined
> to investigate, a "buckle" is not what it seems.
The only way that I can make "dexter buckles" work is that the tongue of
the buckle is pointing to the dexter, but that would only require the
"dexter" if the tongue is presumed to point in another direction as a rule.
Ah, in the Hadley arms
<http://people.ku.edu/~art/coa.html>
there are several examples of buckles, and all of them specify which
direction the tongues point, and specify whether they are square or round
buckles. But the blazon is "Three square buckles, tongues to the dexter"
not "dexter buckles".
That makes me more confident that the description of the arms is Swithin's
description of the arms, and that he knows what the device looks like, and
remembered the words that were used in the official blazon but garbled it.
Barbara Bailey
> Barbara Bailey wrote:
>> And the color on color rule is a strong tradition,
>> but wasn't always a hard and fast rule. The idea is to have high
>> contrast between the field and the charges, and color on color
>> doesn't always provide that, depending on the shades of the colors
>> used. If the red is bright scarlet, it would show up nicely against
>> black, but if it's a dark red, it won't.
> I'd be interested in an example of color on color from Britain, say
> before WW I.
Hadley:
Gules, a chevron Argent between three plates and overall a fesse Azure.
<http://people.ku.edu/~art/coa.html>
That's blue on red.
Third row of colored plates.
And in the sixth row of colored plates, there an example of metal on metal,
with the Gold Fesse overlaying the silver chevron.
I don't know exactly when they're from, but they were gathered "nearly a
hundred years ago" and the Hadley family has traced back to Somerset in the
late 1500's.
There are probably more, but I don't have a searchable British armorial.
James Silverton
Yes, "tongues to the dexter" would be much clearer. I did have a vague
knowledge of the old French that heralds apparently use. Thanks!
Montgomery County in Maryland where I live, had the County coat of arms
checked out by the English Heralds. It turned out they were using the
wrong Montgomery crest and accepted the change. Maryland likes heraldic
badges, for example the distinctly unique state flag:
http://www.50states.com/flag/mdflag.htm
TsuiDF
wrote:
Hmmm, does this mean the Montgomery County T-shirt I bought in 1993
before leaving that hallowed ground is now actually something like a
stamp printed the wrong way up? Have I been hiding a collectable in
my wardrobe, I wonder?
cheers,
Stephanie
now in Brussels
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
Thanks, that's just the kind of thing I was asking for. So sable,
three buckles gules isn't as weird as I thought. I still think it
would be pretty weird.
--
Jerry Friedman
Robin Bignall
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:10:26 +0100 (CET), Barbara Bailey
><rabr...@yayhu.comm> wrote:
>
>>Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote in
>>news:2kjij4pn1v86r83ta...@4ax.com:
>
>>> Sable is a fur.
>>>
>>
>>No, in heraldry, "sable" is black. The furs are ermine and its variants,
>>and vair.
>
>Oops. I've been too long out of the bend.
Better than being in a bar sinister.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> Barbara wrote on Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:54:33 +0100 (CET):
>
>
>
> >> Marius wrote on Fri, 05 Dec 2008 05:34:08 -0500:
> >>> Forsites with an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles
> >>> on a sable ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take
> >>> them up.
> >> In the extensive discussion of arcane heraldic terminology
...
> Montgomery County in Maryland where I live, had the County coat of arms
> checked out by the English Heralds. It turned out they were using the
> wrong Montgomery crest and accepted the change. Maryland likes heraldic
> badges, for example the distinctly unique state flag:http://www.50states.com/flag/mdflag.htm
Do "foolish business" (snipped) and "arcane terminology" mean you're
not interested in the difference between "coat of arms", "crest", and
"badge"?
--
Jerry Friedman
James Silverton
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Hadley:
> Gules, a chevron Argent between three plates and overall a fesse Azure.
> <http://people.ku.edu/~art/coa.html>
Looking at the escutcheons there, I noticed one that showed two
compasses (for drawing) blazoned as "a pair of compasses". But some
of our British friends have told us a "pair of compasses" is one
instrument, like a pair of scissors. Is it different in heraldry, or
did the artist misinterpret the blazon?
--
Jerry Friedman
James Silverton
Possibly, I don't know when Montgomery county changed its badge, crest,
insignia or whatever.
Barbara Bailey
> Barbara Bailey wrote:
>> "jerry_friedman wrote:
>> > I'd be interested in an example of color on color from Britain, say
>> > before WW I.
>>
>> Hadley:
>> Gules, a chevron Argent between three plates and overall a fesse
>> Azure. <http://people.ku.edu/~art/coa.html>
>> That's blue on red.
>> Third row of colored plates.
>> And in the sixth row of colored plates, there an example of metal on
>> metal,
>> with the Gold fesse overlaying the Silver chevron.
>
> Thanks, that's just the kind of thing I was asking for. So sable,
> three buckles gules isn't as weird as I thought. I still think it
> would be pretty weird.
Pure serendipity, since it was the same page as the first one I looked at
when I was looking for blazons that included "three buckles". And you're
right, it would be odd.
John Dean
>
> Incidentally, did anyone mention that "gules" means red? Azure,
> argent, or and vert one can understand, but gules seems on the
> obscure side. (The SOED says it's cognate wth modern French "gueule",
> a rather rude word for mouth, as in "ferme ta gueule", but that only
> partially lifts the obscurity.)
OED sez:
The ulterior etymology is disputed: the word coincides in form with the pl.
of the Fr. and med.Lat. word for 'throat'. If the heraldic sense be the
original, the allusion may be to the colour of the open mouth of a heraldic
beast. It seems more likely, however, that the heraldic use is transferred
from the sense 'red ermine', in which case the word may represent some
oriental name; but the suggestion of derivation from Pers. gul, rose
(Hatz.-Darm.), is very improbable.]
Or see
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/gules.htm
--
John Dean
Oxford
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:57:50 -0800
Nothing to forgive--I hardly think people are required to be
interested in heraldry.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms> shows a coat of arms,
including a crest--whatever that is on top of the wreath on top of the
helmet. I think "coat of arms" can also mean just the shield.
Barbara will tell you whether that's correct or not.
A badge is a personal emblem. Richard III's coat of arms as Duke of
Gloucester was a modification of that of England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England#Titles.2C_styles.2C_honours_and_arms
When he, um, inherited the throne, he used the arms of England. But
the whole time his badge was a boar, which appears nowhere in the arms
of England (or any other country in Britain). Hence "The cat, the
rat, and Lovel the Dog/ Rule all England under a hog."
--
Jerry Friedman
musika
By the use of "center" in the next one (and the .edu URL), I would say they
were written by an American.
--
Ray
UK
Barbara Bailey
> Barbara Bailey wrote:
>> Hadley:
>> Gules, a chevron Argent between three plates and overall a fesse Azure.
>> <http://people.ku.edu/~art/coa.html>
>
> Looking at the escutcheons there, I noticed one that showed two
> compasses (for drawing) blazoned as "a pair of compasses". But some
> of our British friends have told us a "pair of compasses" is one
> instrument, like a pair of scissors. Is it different in heraldry, or
> did the artist misinterpret the blazon?
Sloane-Evans, _A Grammar of British Heraldry, Consisting of Blazon and
Marshalling_, 1854, on page 151, under Artificial Charges-Civil-Trade has
the note "There are a few other bearings of this class. The Compasses (an
emblem of moderation), Cramp, Pincers, Trowel, Triangle, &c,&c.)
I couldn't find any examples of it being called a compass, though; all the
blazons I found used "a pair of compasses" for one, and "[number]
compasses" for more than one.
I suspect the artist is A) American and B) misinterpreted the blazon.
Barbara Bailey
> "James Silverton" wrote:
>> jerry_friedman wrote:
>> > Do "foolish business" (snipped) and "arcane terminology" mean
>> > you're not interested in the difference between "coat of
>> > arms", "crest", and "badge"?
>>
>> If I can be forgiven, yes!
>
> Nothing to forgive--I hardly think people are required to be
> interested in heraldry.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms> shows a coat of arms,
> including a crest--whatever that is on top of the wreath on top of the
> helmet. I think "coat of arms" can also mean just the shield.
> Barbara will tell you whether that's correct or not.
The arms is the escutcheon (the shield) alone, not any of the other bits.
Coat of arms is usually the escutcheon alone, but it can also be used to
indicate a surcoat or tabard displaying the arms.
The crest is specifically the thing standing on top of the helm.
I don't know of a single term for the whole works, including shield, helm,
mantling and crest.
Don Aitken
"Achievement"
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Amethyst Deceiver
wrote:
>Hello:
>
>These Heralds' Office payments, are they a one-time payment or annual ones?
>
>Also
>"The arms he hugged to himself"
>does it mean
>"The arms he kept to himself (didn't tell others)?"
It's times like this I really miss Graeme. He would have explained the
whole thing!
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Mike Page
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
Alan Jones
"James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ghc6ll$iqi$1...@news.motzarella.org...
Quite. It's all a joke at the Heralds' expense: red buckles on a black
ground is improper, since colours are not permitted to adjoin. Whatever a
buckle is, a red buckle would have to be on a gold or silver field, and a
black field would have to bear a silver or gold buckle. The "dexter" here is
just another bit of nonsense, demonstrating the Heralds' incompetence and
their readiness to say anything if it might get them a fee.
Alan Jones
Mike Lyle
The Oxford Bar in Edinburgh has a tie: arms of the City of Oxford and a
bar sinister on a dark-blue ground. This is, as you've already noticed,
a rebus. (I understand that coats of arms which play on words are called
"canting arms".) Sinister bends are not, I also read as a boy in /Simple
Heraldry Cheerfully Illustrated/, necessarily a mark of illegitimacy.
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
>> Do "foolish business" (snipped) and "arcane terminology" mean
>> you're not interested in the difference between "coat of
>> arms", "crest", and "badge"?
>
> If I can be forgiven, yes!
Nothing wrong with that, but you do need to bear in the back of your
mind that they /are/ different in case it comes up in your reading. The
history underlying the terms is interesting, though--see also "mantle"
and "mantling". (I wonder if those American women lawyers who so
absurdly style themselves "esquire" hanker after arms...)
--
Mike.
James Silverton
At least they don't insist on being addressed as "doctor" since they
often have JD degrees.
Robin Bignall
Thank you for the compliment, but until I looked up the historical
meaning of "rebus" I wondered what Scottish detective inspectors had
to do with it.
Cece
The first rule of heraldry (no metal on metal or color on color) is
very old. But there are exceptions! "Where a field is varied of a
metal and a colour, a charge of either metal or colour may be laid on
it, provided it rests o the field as a whole, and not only on one of
the tinctures of the field. The rule is likewise relaxe in the case
of bordures and chiefs, and of a charge surmounting both thefield and
another charge." The examples linked to earlier are in this
category. But no, those Forsite arms are not good. Neither are the
fetterlock arms given Ivanhoe; Scott misquotes the rule and apparently
doesn't understand it!
Again with Boutell in hand:
There are lots of varieties of buckles in heraldry, they should be
specified. Shape: oval, round, square, whatever. Positiion of the
tongue: pendent, point-in-chief, fesswise; if fesswise -- point in
dexter or in sinister.
From memory and impressions over the years:
Did the guy go to the College of Arms? "The Herald's Office" might be
one of those scammers. Really, it is up to the applicant to prove
that he is entitled to existing arms as the heir; heralds do not do
the work for him. Really, the heralds will not assure someone that he
must be related to a family and therefore can use their arms; this is
not the way right to use arms works! All those folks you hear from or
about telling people, "Your name is Smith; you must be related to the
Smiths and therefore you can use the arms John Smith the explorer used
-- if you just give us lots of money," are such conmen.
Paul Wolff
There's an as yet unanswered =SDC= question (Q13) that was hinted around
that connexion.
(Was hinted?)
--
Paul
CDB
> "James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ghc6ll$iqi$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>> Marius wrote on Fri, 05 Dec 2008 05:34:08 -0500:
>>> [Swithin Forsyte, three generations remote (or so) a yeoman,
>>> takes care of the family's heraldry:-)]
>>> It was Swithin who, following the impulse which sooner or
>>> later urges thereto some member of every great family, went to
>>> the Heralds' Office, where they assured him that he was
>>> undoubtedly of the same family as the well-known with
>>> an 'i,' whose arms were 'three dexter buckles on a sable
>>> ground gules,' hoping no doubt to get him to take them up.
>> In the extensive discussion of arcane heraldic terminology no-one
>> seems to have said much about the "dexter buckles". I thought
>> dexter would mean right-handed but how is a buckle so? Perhaps,
>> and I am disinclined to investigate, a "buckle" is not what it
>> seems.
>> I am reminded of what Chesterfield is supposed to have said to the
>> Garter King at Arms; "You foolish man, you don't even know your
>> own foolish business."
> Quite. It's all a joke at the Heralds' expense: red buckles on a
> black ground is improper, since colours are not permitted to
> adjoin. Whatever a buckle is, a red buckle would have to be on a
> gold or silver field, and a black field would have to bear a silver
> or gold buckle. The "dexter" here is just another bit of nonsense,
> demonstrating the Heralds' incompetence and their readiness to say
> anything if it might get them a fee.
I've been wondering if it wasn't Galsworthy's and the Heralds' clerks'
joke at the Forsytes' expense. "right buck" might have meant
"entirely dishonest", if the word in the phrase "buck cabbie",
dishonest cab-driver*, was used more generally.
Partridge, in his Historical Slang, has only a verb "to buck" with a
related meaning: to falsify (an account or balance-sheet). He also
has a use from _Vanity Fair_, "a most tremendous buck", a great dandy,
which may seem somewhat more likely. And an allusion to _Le Rouge et
le Noir_ might have been beyond the clerks, but was surely not beyond
Galsworthy.
* http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Castle/victorian_slang.html
Nick
Richard Bollard
Bear arms or bare arms, as is their right.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.