Islamic Rage Boys' Monikers
Vinny Burgoo
'attacker'", which is about an attacking attacker shot by police while
caught in mid-attack trying to kill a cartoonist by attacking him with
an axe, includes a quote from a Sheikh Rage:
'We appreciate the incident in which a Muslim Somali boy attacked the
devil who abused our prophet Mohammed and we call upon all Muslims
around the world to target the people like him.'
So it's official. The 28-year-old attacker (or 'attacker', if you
really must) is a Rage Boy.
<http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/islamic-
rage-boy-head-only.jpg>
That wacky Somali moniker, though: Sheikh Rage. It surely can't be a
nod towards the derisive Web phenomenon of a few years ago. Is it,
then, related to the Somali word 'raagee', meaning 'a bit behind the
times'?
It's certainly an alias. Sheikh Rage, a close chum of Sheikh Warsame(-
samepeace), was formerly known as Sheikh Dheere, which apparently
means 'tall' in Somali.
Why go from tall to archaic?
Any authoritative comments? (Cough! Lyle! Cough!)
Unauthoritative but heartfelt contempt for Islamic Rage Boys and their
axes and never-quite-exploding underpants is equally welcome.
--
VB
And don't spare the BBC
James Hogg
> Unauthoritative but heartfelt contempt for Islamic Rage Boys and
> their axes and never-quite-exploding underpants is equally welcome.
The Danish cartoonist offended a lot of people by implying an
association between the prophet who founded a religion and today's
fanatics who commit murder in the name of that religion. The fanatic who
tried to murder the cartoonist was merely trying to show how absurd that
alleged association is.
--
James
John Dean
> A pusillanimous newsfeed from the BBC entitled "Charges for cartoonist
> 'attacker'", which is about an attacking attacker shot by police while
> caught in mid-attack trying to kill a cartoonist by attacking him with
> an axe, includes a quote from a Sheikh Rage:
>
> 'We appreciate the incident in which a Muslim Somali boy attacked the
> devil who abused our prophet Mohammed and we call upon all Muslims
> around the world to target the people like him.'
>
> So it's official. The 28-year-old attacker (or 'attacker', if you
> really must) is a Rage Boy.
>
> <http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/islamic-
> rage-boy-head-only.jpg>
>
> That wacky Somali moniker, though: Sheikh Rage. It surely can't be a
> nod towards the derisive Web phenomenon of a few years ago. Is it,
> then, related to the Somali word 'raagee', meaning 'a bit behind the
> times'?
>
There's a Somali-British journalist called Rageh Omaar who used to work for
the BBC.
It's all in the transliteration.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mike Lyle
> A pusillanimous newsfeed from the BBC entitled "Charges for cartoonist
> 'attacker'", which is about an attacking attacker shot by police while
> caught in mid-attack trying to kill a cartoonist by attacking him with
> an axe, includes a quote from a Sheikh Rage:
>
> 'We appreciate the incident in which a Muslim Somali boy attacked the
> devil who abused our prophet Mohammed and we call upon all Muslims
> around the world to target the people like him.'
>
> So it's official. The 28-year-old attacker (or 'attacker', if you
> really must) is a Rage Boy.
>
> <http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/islamic-
> rage-boy-head-only.jpg>
>
> That wacky Somali moniker, though: Sheikh Rage. It surely can't be a
> nod towards the derisive Web phenomenon of a few years ago. Is it,
> then, related to the Somali word 'raagee', meaning 'a bit behind the
> times'?
>
> It's certainly an alias. Sheikh Rage, a close chum of Sheikh Warsame(-
> samepeace), was formerly known as Sheikh Dheere, which apparently
> means 'tall' in Somali.
>
> Why go from tall to archaic?
>
> Any authoritative comments? (Cough! Lyle! Cough!)
You rang?
It's probably a tax dodge: that way he can separate his liability for
earnings while fomenting racial hatred for those he gets from piracy (as
you know, the Somali Inland Revenue is pretty strict). See also Rageh
Omar, name-wise: that's as far as I can get. (Why are Somalis so
good-looking?)
>
> Unauthoritative but heartfelt contempt for Islamic Rage Boys and their
> axes and never-quite-exploding underpants is equally welcome.
Gorra laugh at the non-explosiveness of the undercrackers: hell, our
Christmas --sorry, Holiday--ones went off better. (Did I mention that
Marks and Spencers' ones were labelled as sold subject to The Explosives
Act, 1896 (ish)?)
The appropriate way to get even with the BBC may simply be to deploy
scare quotes...
"B"BC?
BBC World "Service"?
...no, not working. Withold licence fee? No: prison a bit vulgar.
Threaten them with privatization? No, the greedsters want that. We'll
just have to go round sneering genteelly.
--
Mike.
Don Phillipson
news:hhokeb$ola$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> The Danish cartoonist offended a lot of people by implying an
> association between the prophet who founded a religion and today's
> fanatics who commit murder in the name of that religion. The fanatic who
> tried to murder the cartoonist was merely trying to show how absurd that
> alleged association is.
This association is just as real as that between Christianity and
St. Dominic (when recommending slaughter of all the Cathars,
whether heretical or not.) We know all too many examples of
brutality which the brutes sincerely professed to be God's will.
I doubt that "the fanatic who tried to murder the cartoonist was
merely trying to show how absurd that alleged association is."
I do not believe people attempting murder are merely trying to
make debating points.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>"James Hogg" <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote in message
>news:hhokeb$ola$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> The Danish cartoonist offended a lot of people by implying an
>> association between the prophet who founded a religion and today's
>> fanatics who commit murder in the name of that religion. The fanatic who
>> tried to murder the cartoonist was merely trying to show how absurd that
>> alleged association is.
>I doubt that "the fanatic who tried to murder the cartoonist was
>merely trying to show how absurd that alleged association is."
>I do not believe people attempting murder are merely trying to
>make debating points.
Irony meter on the blink, Don?
I'm surprised.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Vinny Burgoo
wrote:
> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
[...]
> > That wacky Somali moniker, though: Sheikh Rage. It surely can't be a
> > nod towards the derisive Web phenomenon of a few years ago. Is it,
> > then, related to the Somali word 'raagee', meaning 'a bit behind the
> > times'?
>
> > It's certainly an alias. Sheikh Rage, a close chum of Sheikh Warsame(-
> > samepeace), was formerly known as Sheikh Dheere, which apparently
> > means 'tall' in Somali.
>
> > Why go from tall to archaic?
>
> > Any authoritative comments? (Cough! Lyle! Cough!)
>
> You rang?
>
> It's probably a tax dodge: that way he can separate his liability for
> earnings while fomenting racial hatred for those he gets from piracy (as
> you know, the Somali Inland Revenue is pretty strict). See also Rageh
> Omar, name-wise: that's as far as I can get.
It looks like I got the monikers the wrong way around. Dhere/Dheere is
the alias and Rage/Raage/Ragi the original. Rage etc. can mean late,
delayed, out-of-date, slow or old; or men or people; or - and this
seems most likely - orphan or motherless. Dhere/dheere/der means tall.
So it's probably quite simple. He chose the alias 'Tall' because he's
tall.
> (Why are Somalis so good-looking?)
This one isn't.
<http://www.soomaalinews.com/cali_raage.jpg>
What a handsome fellow!
Dhere/Raage is apparently Somalia's leading cleric. He's a very pious
man. For example, he doesn't believe in anaesthesia for judicial
amputations. (When a local newspaper compared his regime's antics to
the barbarous clerical tyrannies of medieval Europe, Raage pooh-poohed
the parallel, sentenced the editor to death and destroyed the paper's
presses.) Despite having no political ambitions, he was until recently
compelled to be the ruler of central Somalia. His chums are currently
fighting another group of pious men to regain control of the region.
Latest death toll: 47.
> > Unauthoritative but heartfelt contempt for Islamic Rage Boys and their
> > axes and never-quite-exploding underpants is equally welcome.
>
> Gorra laugh at the non-explosiveness of the undercrackers: hell, our
> Christmas --sorry, Holiday--ones went off better. (Did I mention that
> Marks and Spencers' ones were labelled as sold subject to The Explosives
> Act, 1896 (ish)?)
Waraa i dhig! (I think that's Somali homeboy slang for 'Get away!')
> The appropriate way to get even with the BBC may simply be to deploy
> scare quotes...
> "B"BC?
> BBC World "Service"?
Waa ka baxsatay! (U da bomb!)
(What the hell is the 'BB'C's policy on scare quotes? The top item in
its newsfeed is currently 'Police admit royal camera "error"'. The
story quotes a senior Plod as follows: 'It was an error.' So do quote
marks simply indicate a quote? Not in a story lower down, they don't.
In 'Haman attacks BBC for "ageism"', the quote marks apparently
indicate a paraphrase. That B'eeb' is such an alwaax, rageedi!)
> ...no, not working. Withold licence fee? No: prison a bit vulgar.
> Threaten them with privatization? No, the greedsters want that. We'll
> just have to go round sneering genteelly.
Is kalaa jaraya! (That's 'Bustin' a move!', apparently. Quite what
that means ...)
*
US-based Somali homeboys discuss Somali slang:
<http://www.somalilife.com/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-15195.html>
It's da shizznit!
--
VB
Mike Lyle
>
>> (Why are Somalis so good-looking?)
>
> This one isn't.
>
> <http://www.soomaalinews.com/cali_raage.jpg>
>
> What a handsome fellow!
I dunno: give him a shave and take off the teacosy, and he'd be passably
smooth and symmetrical.
>
But how is it that they haven't stopped the Somali pirates? Is some big
country quietly protecting them? I'd have thought a few concealed
rockets on some tempting-looking targets would have encourag� les autres
no end. Maybe even simply arresting a few boatloads by means of lurking
Marines without actually killing them too severely.
--
Mike.
[...]
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
One problem is that the pirates operate over a very large area. Another
is that the earnings are so huge that the pirates are prepared to risk
death.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
franzi
wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:10:21 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>
>
>
> <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >Vinny Burgoo wrote:
> >> On Jan 2, 11:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >[...]
>
> >>> (Why are Somalis so good-looking?)
>
> >> This one isn't.
>
> >> <http://www.soomaalinews.com/cali_raage.jpg>
>
> >> What a handsome fellow!
>
> >I dunno: give him a shave and take off the teacosy, and he'd be passably
> >smooth and symmetrical.
>
> >But how is it that they haven't stopped the Somali pirates? Is some big
> >country quietly protecting them? I'd have thought a few concealed
> >no end. Maybe even simply arresting a few boatloads by means of lurking
> >Marines without actually killing them too severely.
>
> One problem is that the pirates operate over a very large area. Another
> is that the earnings are so huge that the pirates are prepared to risk
> death.
>
approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
villages are, don't we?
Reference the wide ocean, it is a bit puzzling how the pirates can
find the ships, but the ships can't find the pirates. Perhaps they are
looking for pilots:
A sad mistake it was to make
And doom him to a vile lot.
I bound him to a pirate – you –
Instead of to a pilot.
--
franzi
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Successful pirates have upgraded themselves from villages.
>Reference the wide ocean, it is a bit puzzling how the pirates can
>find the ships, but the ships can't find the pirates. Perhaps they are
>looking for pilots:
>
The pirates cheat. They don't fly pirate flags on their boats and they
don't wear pirate uniforms.
>A sad mistake it was to make
>And doom him to a vile lot.
>I bound him to a pirate – you –
>Instead of to a pilot.
--
franzi
wrote:
from shore in the Arabian Sea or south of it, especially when manned
by a gang of JDs wearing little but Ray-Bans, AK-47s and RPGs. And to
firmly prevent terrorism, I'd ask to see their ID cards, after which
they'd be powerless.
--
franzi
J. J. Lodder
> On Jan 3, 10:18 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:10:21 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
> >
> >
> >
> > <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Vinny Burgoo wrote:
> > >> On Jan 2, 11:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
> > >> wrote:
> > >[...]
> >
> > >>> (Why are Somalis so good-looking?)
> >
> > >> This one isn't.
> >
> > >> <http://www.soomaalinews.com/cali_raage.jpg>
> >
> > >> What a handsome fellow!
> >
> > >I dunno: give him a shave and take off the teacosy, and he'd be passably
> > >smooth and symmetrical.
> >
> > >But how is it that they haven't stopped the Somali pirates? Is some big
> > >country quietly protecting them? I'd have thought a few concealed
> > >rockets on some tempting-looking targets would have encourag� les autres
> > >no end. Maybe even simply arresting a few boatloads by means of lurking
> > >Marines without actually killing them too severely.
> >
> > One problem is that the pirates operate over a very large area. Another
> > is that the earnings are so huge that the pirates are prepared to risk
> > death.
> >
> J Caesar had an effective response to piracy. The more general ancient
> approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
> villages are, don't we?
Seems to work best if you crucify the males
and sell the females and children into slavery.
(after letting the legionaries have some fun first)
For some incomprehensible reason
this method seems to have become unfashionable,
Jan
Cheryl
I don't think any major (that is, powerful) country wants to badly
enough, and the various commercial interests are satisfied, if not
exactly happy, to just pay the pirates off periodically, that is, when
one of their ships gets caught.
After all, you're going to have to kill off an awful lot of pirates
unless Somalia suddenly develops a central government strong enough to
keep law and order everywhere within the country, cutting off the pirate
supply at the source, and we all know the difficulties involved in
trying to assist in the setting up of a stable government from the outside.
But without a stable central government, the Somalis aren't going to get
law and order and they're highly likely to have the kind of economy in
which armed robbery and murder are good career moves.
--
Cheryl
Chuck Riggs
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 15:29:04 -0800 (PST), franzi
><et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jan 3, 10:18�pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>>wrote:
>>> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 22:10:21 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>> >> On Jan 2, 11:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >[...]
>>>
>>> >>> (Why are Somalis so good-looking?)
>>>
>>> >> This one isn't.
>>>
>>> >> <http://www.soomaalinews.com/cali_raage.jpg>
>>>
>>> >> What a handsome fellow!
>>>
>>> >I dunno: give him a shave and take off the teacosy, and he'd be passably
>>> >smooth and symmetrical.
>>>
>>> >But how is it that they haven't stopped the Somali pirates? Is some big
>>> >country quietly protecting them? I'd have thought a few concealed
>>> >rockets on some tempting-looking targets would have encourag� les autres
>>> >no end. Maybe even simply arresting a few boatloads by means of lurking
>>> >Marines without actually killing them too severely.
>>>
>>> One problem is that the pirates operate over a very large area. Another
>>> is that the earnings are so huge that the pirates are prepared to risk
>>> death.
>>>
>>J Caesar had an effective response to piracy. The more general ancient
>>approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
>>villages are, don't we?
>>
>Successful pirates have upgraded themselves from villages.
>
>>Reference the wide ocean, it is a bit puzzling how the pirates can
>>find the ships, but the ships can't find the pirates. Perhaps they are
>>looking for pilots:
>>
>The pirates cheat. They don't fly pirate flags on their boats and they
>don't wear pirate uniforms.
In addition, the pirates can dart out from Somalia's long coastline
when passing freighters come close to shore, which they often do. I
can't remember why they do, but they do.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I don't think any major (that is, powerful) country wants to badly
> enough, and the various commercial interests are satisfied, if not
> exactly happy, to just pay the pirates off periodically, that is, when
> one of their ships gets caught.
Except for the fact that the pirates get stronger and the job
more attractive for every million they receive.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Steve Hayes
>I don't think any major (that is, powerful) country wants to badly
>enough, and the various commercial interests are satisfied, if not
>exactly happy, to just pay the pirates off periodically, that is, when
>one of their ships gets caught.
>
>After all, you're going to have to kill off an awful lot of pirates
>unless Somalia suddenly develops a central government strong enough to
>keep law and order everywhere within the country, cutting off the pirate
>supply at the source, and we all know the difficulties involved in
>trying to assist in the setting up of a stable government from the outside.
>
>But without a stable central government, the Somalis aren't going to get
>law and order and they're highly likely to have the kind of economy in
>which armed robbery and murder are good career moves.
It works both ways.
Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that could
stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their door step.
So some citizens formed a freelance navy to exact reparations from any foreign
ships that came within range. Not really much different from what Goerge Bush
did in Iraq, if you come to think about it -- the Somalis just formed a few
"coalitions of the willing" and went and kicked some donkey.
Pat Durkin
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message
news:re44k5hkn3tkk06hq...@4ax.com...
Whaddaya mean "within range"? What is "range"? It is true that some
kind of central government (with navy) might protect Somali waters.
But aren't these pirates going far, far beyond any acceptable
territorial waters?
"On April 8, 2009, four Somali pirates seized the Maersk Alabama 240
nautical miles (440 km; 280 mi) southeast of the Somalia port city of
Google blurb.
Whatever happened to the idea of an "international blockade"?
Of course. that won't have any affect on the depredations on cargo
being sent into the country for the benefit of the poor.
Mind you, I have no sympathy with the Bush crimes.
John Varela
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> The pirates cheat. They don't fly pirate flags on their boats and they
> don't wear pirate uniforms.
But do they talk like pirates?
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
John Varela
<et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> J Caesar had an effective response to piracy. The more general ancient
> approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
> villages are, don't we?
There is some means of getting ransom money to them, which suggests
it might be possible to track them to their homes. They must be
banking all that money someplace.
Since the Somalis can't or won't do anything about this, it seems
reasonable to me that the maritime powers should go in and take the
villages. "If you give us back our ship we'll give you back your
wives and children" seems a fair deal.
Steve Hayes
That's not nearly as great as the distance from US territorial waters to
Baghdad.
>Whatever happened to the idea of an "international blockade"?
>
>Of course. that won't have any affect on the depredations on cargo
>being sent into the country for the benefit of the poor.
>
>Mind you, I have no sympathy with the Bush crimes.
Somali war lords are generally not nice people -- no nicer than George Bush,
anyway.
Jerry Friedman
,,,
> US-based Somali homeboys discuss Somali slang:
>
> <http://www.somalilife.com/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-15195.html>
>
> It's da shizznit!
"sxb anakaba waxaas waa u naqanaa laakin wax caan ah ma la sheegeenin
ee waa SLANGz amahadal xaafadeed, fooraris, cunid kule waa naqana, we
need something old ppl cnt understand"
It's working fine on me.
--
Jerry Friredman
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 23:29:04 UTC, franzi
><et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> J Caesar had an effective response to piracy. The more general ancient
>> approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
>> villages are, don't we?
>
>There is some means of getting ransom money to them, which suggests
>it might be possible to track them to their homes. They must be
>banking all that money someplace.
>
It is possibly kept as cash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_pirates#Weaponry_and_funding
Pirates say ransom money is paid in large denomination US dollar
bills. It is delivered to them in burlap sacks which are either
dropped from helicopters or cased in waterproof suitcases loaded
onto tiny skiffs. Ransom money has also been delivered to pirates
via parachute, as happened in January 2009 when an orange container
with $3 million cash inside it was dropped onto the deck of the
supertanker MV Sirius Star to secure the release of ship and
crew. To authenticate the banknotes, pirates use currency-counting
machines, the same technology used at foreign exchange bureaus
worldwide. According to one pirate, these machines are, in turn,
purchased from business connections in Dubai, Djibouti, and other
areas. Hostages seized by the pirates usually have to wait 45 days
or more for the ships' owners to pay the ransom and secure their
release, but the pirates' treatment of the hostages is relatively
humane, and their reputation for turning over the ship, cargo and
reason for their continued success in having their demands met.
Somali pirates allegedly get help from the Somali diaspora. Somali
expatriates, including reputedly some among the 200,000 Somalis
living in Canada, offer funds, equipment and information.
In the introductory section of the article is:
There are discussions under way to begin an aggressive covert
operation against the pirates. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
has been publicly warning of this potential threat for months. In a
Harpers Magazine article, a CIA official stated, "We need to deal
with this problem from the beach side, in concert with the ocean
side, but we don't have an embassy in Somalia and limited,
ineffective intelligence operations. We need to work in Somalia and
in Lebanon, where a lot of the ransom money has changed hands. But
our operations in Lebanon are a joke, and we have no presence at all
in Somalia."
Then:
... the lucrative success of many hijacking operations have drawn a
number of young men toward gangs of pirates, whose wealth and
strength often make them part of the local social and economic
elite. Abdi Farah Juha who lives in Garoowe (100 miles from the sea)
told the BBC, "They have money; they have power and they are getting
stronger by the day. [...] They wed the most beautiful girls; they
are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns."
And:
Most pirates are aged 20–35 years old and come from the region of
Puntland, in northeastern Somalia. The East African Seafarers'
Association estimates that there are at least five pirate gangs and
a total of 1,000 armed men. According to a BBC report, the pirates
can be divided into three main categories:
* Local Somali fishermen, considered the brains of the pirates'
operations due to their skill and knowledge of the sea. Most think
that foreign boats have no rights to cruise next to the shore and
destroy their boats.
* Ex-militiamen who used to fight for the local clan warlords, used
as the muscle.
* Technical experts who operate equipment such as GPS devices.
>Since the Somalis can't or won't do anything about this, it seems
>reasonable to me that the maritime powers should go in and take the
>villages. "If you give us back our ship we'll give you back your
>wives and children" seems a fair deal.
--
Robin Bignall
They should become bankers then. Just as lucrative but less lethal.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Cheryl
I don't think that paying the pirates off really has any long-term
benefit for anyone but the pirates; however, on a short-term basis, it
works out better for the businesses than either persuading a major power
to declare war or hire mercenaries and do the job themselves.
That all just reminded me of Kipling's take on something vaguely similar:
"It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say:�
�Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away.�
......
"So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost; "
Except the Somalis are, of course, doing the molesting first and then
asking for the money.
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
> It works both ways.
>
> Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that could
> stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their door step.
>
> So some citizens formed a freelance navy to exact reparations from any foreign
> ships that came within range. Not really much different from what Goerge Bush
> did in Iraq, if you come to think about it -- the Somalis just formed a few
> "coalitions of the willing" and went and kicked some donkey.
Well, without speculating on the motivations of Bush in Iraq, I don't
really think he simply attacked any ships that happened past his home
territory, and I don't see how such behaviour has any similarity at all
to reparations, which are what you get when either the party that
wronged you, a third party (like a legal system) or both admit that you
have been wronged and you deserve reparations.
--
Cheryl
James Hogg
> One problem is that the pirates operate over a very large area. Another
> is that the earnings are so huge that the pirates are prepared to risk
> death.
Why couldn't I help reading that as "the earrings are so huge"?
--
James
Cheryl
You've been watching too many pirate movies.
--
Cheryl
Vinny Burgoo
Ku sabab fiican, awoowe! (Sabab fiican la'aanteed?)
Here's a nice cup-of-cocoa love story instead:
<http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/10003>
'Her qurux was like jowharad that would make you sleepless for
nights ...'
Cripes! Maybe not.
--
VB
Fidi baakadaha ka dibna kala dhexgeli caagadaha loogu talagaly
qashinka dibka loo warashadeyn karo dhexdooda.
Steve Hayes
Well, you can call it reparations or compensation or whatever, but no matter
what you call it, it's still a zero-sum game.
The way it works is that when someone damages, destroys or steals something of
yours, you go and damage, destroy or steal something belonging to someone
else, whether it's a passing ship or a country on the other side of the
planet.
Cheryl
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:38:03 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>>> It works both ways.
>>>
>>> Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that could
>>> stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their door step.
>>>
>>> So some citizens formed a freelance navy to exact reparations from any foreign
>>> ships that came within range. Not really much different from what Goerge Bush
>>> did in Iraq, if you come to think about it -- the Somalis just formed a few
>>> "coalitions of the willing" and went and kicked some donkey.
>>
>> Well, without speculating on the motivations of Bush in Iraq, I don't
>> really think he simply attacked any ships that happened past his home
>> territory, and I don't see how such behaviour has any similarity at all
>> to reparations, which are what you get when either the party that
>> wronged you, a third party (like a legal system) or both admit that you
>> have been wronged and you deserve reparations.
>
> Well, you can call it reparations or compensation or whatever, but no matter
> what you call it, it's still a zero-sum game.
>
> The way it works is that when someone damages, destroys or steals something of
> yours, you go and damage, destroy or steal something belonging to someone
> else, whether it's a passing ship or a country on the other side of the
> planet.
>
>
through the courts, all jokes about lawyers aside.
If somebody breaks my window, I'm not going to break his nor am I going
to break into his house and steal his TV as compensation, and if words
have meaning, I can't call my window-breaking or robbery as any kind of
reparations. I might think it's compensation; just as my neighbour might
think he can get compensation if he in return steals some of my
valuables to pay for a new TV. However, a society in which compensation
is determined by the whim of the stronger party is one likely to foster
more and more criminal activity, especially by the powerful.
Legal relationships between countries, and their breakdown, is another
issue that I'm not really interested in discussing right now, since I've
done so sufficiently elsewhere and at another time.
--
Cheryl
Chuck Riggs
The Johnny Depp one is nearly impossible to avoid when watching TV
over here.
Mike Lyle
[...]>
> Here's a nice cup-of-cocoa love story instead:
>
> <http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/10003>
>
> 'Her qurux was like jowharad that would make you sleepless for
> nights ...'
>
> Cripes! Maybe not.
They can be deceptive, these qurux, you know: sometimes they seem really
jowharad, and then, awal you aqoow it the chick can turn out to be like
a ganbar lugaha laga gooyay.
Walaahi, my geesinimo nearly went out of the dariishad when she saw my
skinny feero and hairy xabad. I was like is this another riyo or real?
But it all worked out after a daqqiiqo or two. My joy was on the roof
and caadaas, believe me!
--
Mike.
John Holmes
>
> Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that
> could stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their
> door step.
How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa that
western nations dumped their toxic waste.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that
>> could stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their
>> door step.
>
>How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa that
>western nations dumped their toxic waste.
Enough to piss off quite a number of Somalis.
See e.g.
John Varela
> I don't think that paying the pirates off really has any long-term
> benefit for anyone but the pirates;
The hostages might disagree.
Cheryl
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 22:03:13 UTC, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>> I don't think that paying the pirates off really has any long-term
>> benefit for anyone but the pirates;
>
> The hostages might disagree.
>
Current ones, no doubt. Potential ones would probably prefer a solution
that eliminated the piracy, although I don't expect they're any better
than the rest of the world at implementing one.
--
Cheryl
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> Without a strong central government Somalia did not have a navy that
>> could stop ships from other countries dropping toxis waste on their
>> door step.
>
>How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa that
>western nations dumped their toxic waste.
There was an article in the Independent (London, UK) a year ago. It is
an opinion piece that recites some facts:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
Johann Hari: You are being lied to about pirates
Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop
illegal dumping and trawling
Monday, 5 January 2009
....
In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million
people have been teetering on starvation ever since – and the
ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great
opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear
waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious
European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping
vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken.
At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies.
Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking
barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation
sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody
is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy
metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it." Much of it can be
traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be
passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I
asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about
it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no
compensation, and no prevention."
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's
seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own
fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to
theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being
stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now
starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km
south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon
won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."
This is the context in which the "pirates" have emerged. Somalian
fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and
trawlers, or at least levy a "tax" on them. They call themselves the
Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia – and ordinary Somalis agree. The
independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent
"strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence".
No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are
clearly just gangsters – especially those who have held up World
Food Programme supplies. But in a telephone interview, one of the
pirate leaders, Sugule Ali: "We don't consider ourselves sea
bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish
and dump in our seas."
....
John Holmes
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:32:27 +1100, "John Holmes" <see...@instead.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa
>> that western nations dumped their toxic waste.
>
> Enough to piss off quite a number of Somalis.
>
> See e.g.
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
Many thanks, Peter and Steve. I had no idea. I guess that means they
take it through the Suez Canal.
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >franzi wrote:
> >> J Caesar had an effective response to piracy. The more general ancient
> >> approach is simply to destroy their villages. We do know where their
> >> villages are, don't we?
> >
> >Seems to work best if you crucify the males
> >and sell the females and children into slavery.
> >(after letting the legionaries have some fun first)
> >
> >For some incomprehensible reason
> >this method seems to have become unfashionable,
> >
> >Jan
>
> Don't leave out the the power of a grudge in Julie's treatment of
> pirates; he was a pirate's captive in his earlier years.
I don't think you are doing Julius justice.
He was an extremely clever man,
and a -very- ambitious general and politician.
Whatever he did was calculated for effect,
and not just to take revenge for grudges.
He certainly wouldn't have started a cowboy war
like your previous president did,
Jan
Vinny Burgoo
> Steve Hayes wrote:
> > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:32:27 +1100, "John Holmes" <see...@instead.com>
> >> How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa
> >> that western nations dumped their toxic waste.
>
> > Enough to piss off quite a number of Somalis.
>
> > See e.g.
>
> >http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-...
>
> Many thanks, Peter and Steve. I had no idea. I guess that means they
> take it through the Suez Canal.
Western oikophobes are sometimes a bit too eager to believe such
stories (and Johann Hari is as oikophobic as they come). All of the
allegations about toxic and nuclear waste can be traced back to a
single contract signed in late 1991 between two European firms and a
man claiming to be Somalia's minister of health. The contract allowed
for the setting-up of a land-based facility for disposing of nasty
hospital and industrial waste. It was cancelled/repudiated in 1992
before any dumping had occurred.
But the usual Chinese whispers have kept the story alive and made it
more interesting. The companies did dump the waste after all. It was
nuclear. It was dumped at sea. The dumping started in the Eighties and
continued into the Noughties. Etc.
This doesn't mean that dumping didn't/doesn't occur. It means only
that there's no evidence for it. Hearsay and rehashed myths are no
more convincing simply because they come from a tranzi with a grand
title (and, so hearsay says, a yen for a Nobel Peace Prize).
--
VB
That's Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah's yen, not Johann Hari's
(2nd attempt: apologies if duplicated: connection has a cold.)
Vinny Burgoo
> > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:32:27 +1100, "John Holmes" <see...@instead.com>
> >> How much of that went on? I thought it was mainly off west Africa
> >> that western nations dumped their toxic waste.
>
> > Enough to piss off quite a number of Somalis.
>
> > See e.g.
>
> >http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-...
>
> Many thanks, Peter and Steve. I had no idea. I guess that means they
> take it through the Suez Canal.
Western oikophobes are sometimes a bit too eager to believe such
Vinny Burgoo
wrote:
> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
Blimey! It's hard work when the hoof's on the other foot. Won't do it
again, honest.
I'll have another go later. Looks like fun.
--
VB
Or you could ruin the joke by supplying translations