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MC
Feb 1, 2012, 10:36:42 PM2/1/12
to
I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
terminé votre tâche."
But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
terminé votre tâche."
But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
Django Cat
Feb 2, 2012, 5:40:16 AM2/2/12
to
MC wrote:
> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>
> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>
> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> terminé votre tâche."
>
> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've
> found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
Good grief, does that work?
> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>
> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>
> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> terminé votre tâche."
>
> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've
> found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to use it to
check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking it but the
default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the end I went to
an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
work...
'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
and if we get more complicated:
'Knowest thou the way to San Jose?' = 'Kennst du den Weg nach San Jose?'
But it breaks down with the verb form I actually wanted this week:
'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
- it should be 'sprichst'
Lets try
'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
wanted. Hmm...
However, I think you've actually just answered the question - partially
works for me, anyway. Result, as we say in these parts.
Cross-posting this to the good folk on alt.usage.german....
DC
--
Donna Richoux
Feb 2, 2012, 6:37:16 AM2/2/12
to
Django Cat <nota...@address.com> wrote:
> MC wrote:
>
> > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
> > - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> > terminé votre tāche."
> MC wrote:
>
> > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
> > - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> >
> > But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've
> > found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> Good grief, does that work?
>
> >
> > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
> Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem with
> Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to use it to
> check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking it but the
> default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the end I went to
> an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
> I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
> work...
>
> 'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
[snip]
>
> Good grief, does that work?
>
> >
> > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
> Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem with
> Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to use it to
> check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking it but the
> default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the end I went to
> an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
> I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
> work...
>
> 'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
For what it's worth, Google Translation for English-Dutch gives "u"
sometimes and "je" sometimes.
Do you have potatoes
Hebt u aardappels
Do you want potatoes
Wil je aardappelen
(Not even the same plural of aardappel.)
I don't see a pattern yet, or how to control it -- except that in the
Click Alternate Translation feature, the verb and pronoun are offered as
a unit, to be changed together. I see that's not an option in French.
Trying the "thou" trick results in "gij" which closely corresponds to
"thou" (historical, religious, poetical).
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Feb 2, 2012, 7:09:02 AM2/2/12
to
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 10:40:16 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:
>MC wrote:
>
>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
>> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>
>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>
>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>> terminé votre tāche."
>>
>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've
>
>However, I think you've actually just answered the question - partially
>works for me, anyway. Result, as we say in these parts.
>
>Cross-posting this to the good folk on alt.usage.german....
>
>DC
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
wrote:
>MC wrote:
>
>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
>> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>
>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>
>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>
>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've
>> found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
>Good grief, does that work?
>
>>
>> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
>> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
>Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem with
>Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to use it to
>check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking it but the
>default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the end I went to
>an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
>I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
>work...
>
>'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
>
>and if we get more complicated:
>
>'Knowest thou the way to San Jose?' = 'Kennst du den Weg nach San Jose?'
>
>But it breaks down with the verb form I actually wanted this week:
>
>'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
>- it should be 'sprichst'
>
>Lets try
>
>'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
>wanted. Hmm...
>
However, 'Speak'st thou Italian' = 'Sprichst du Italienisch'.
>
>Good grief, does that work?
>
>>
>> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
>> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
>Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem with
>Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to use it to
>check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking it but the
>default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the end I went to
>an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
>I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
>work...
>
>'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
>
>and if we get more complicated:
>
>'Knowest thou the way to San Jose?' = 'Kennst du den Weg nach San Jose?'
>
>But it breaks down with the verb form I actually wanted this week:
>
>'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
>- it should be 'sprichst'
>
>Lets try
>
>'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
>wanted. Hmm...
>
>
>However, I think you've actually just answered the question - partially
>works for me, anyway. Result, as we say in these parts.
>
>Cross-posting this to the good folk on alt.usage.german....
>
>DC
--
(in alt.usage.english)
MC
Feb 2, 2012, 9:04:39 AM2/2/12
to
In article <1keu7xx.x5nz4n16ur8wlN%tr...@euronet.nl>,
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> I don't see a pattern yet, or how to control it -- except that in the
> Click Alternate Translation feature, the verb and pronoun are offered as
> a unit, to be changed together. I see that's not an option in French.
That was the first thing I tried - and no, it doesn't work.
> I don't see a pattern yet, or how to control it -- except that in the
> Click Alternate Translation feature, the verb and pronoun are offered as
> a unit, to be changed together. I see that's not an option in French.
Don Phillipson
Feb 2, 2012, 10:43:06 AM2/2/12
to
"MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>
> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>
> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> terminé votre tâche."
>
> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
recognized as obsolete.)
> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
This would seem anomalous, because French prefers vous
as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>
> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>
> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> terminé votre tâche."
>
> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
recognized as obsolete.)
> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
MC
Feb 2, 2012, 11:21:29 AM2/2/12
to
In article <jgec5l$fd8$3...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> >
> > But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've found
tutoyage (?) I want.
"tu" more than I need "vous" and there doesn't seem to be a way (other
than thou, thine) to achieve it.
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> > it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> > terminé votre tāche."
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> > it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> >
> > But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've found
> > so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
tutoyage (?) I want.
>
> > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
> This would seem anomalous, because French prefers vous
> as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
> political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
I know that too, of course, but it doesn't alter the fact that I need
> > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
>
> This would seem anomalous, because French prefers vous
> as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
> political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
"tu" more than I need "vous" and there doesn't seem to be a way (other
than thou, thine) to achieve it.
Michèle
Feb 2, 2012, 11:24:29 AM2/2/12
to
MC a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :
> I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> tutoyage (?) I want.
Tutoiement.
> I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> tutoyage (?) I want.
MC
Feb 2, 2012, 11:27:57 AM2/2/12
to
MC
Feb 2, 2012, 11:29:52 AM2/2/12
to
In article <copespaz-2DF9C3...@news.eternal-september.org>,
- Marybones
MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> In article <4f2ab8d5$0$32343$426a...@news.free.fr>,
> Michèle <maili...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > MC a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :
> >
> > > I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> > > tutoyage (?) I want.
> > Tutoiement.
>
> There's a word for everything!
«Si vous pouvez, dites-moi quelque chose d'heureux."
> In article <4f2ab8d5$0$32343$426a...@news.free.fr>,
> Michèle <maili...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > MC a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :
> >
> > > I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> > > tutoyage (?) I want.
> > Tutoiement.
>
> There's a word for everything!
- Marybones
musika
Feb 2, 2012, 3:09:52 PM2/2/12
to
Django Cat wrote:
>
> Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem
> with Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to
> use it to check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking
> it but the default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the
> end I went to an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
> I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
> work...
>
> 'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
>
> and if we get more complicated:
>
> 'Knowest thou the way to San Jose?' = 'Kennst du den Weg nach San
> Jose?'
>
> But it breaks down with the verb form I actually wanted this week:
>
> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
> - it should be 'sprichst'
>
> Lets try
>
> 'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
> wanted. Hmm...
>
>
> However, I think you've actually just answered the question -
> partially works for me, anyway. Result, as we say in these parts.
>
It works with "thou speakest italian"
>
> Sorry, I don't know the answer, but I had exactly the same problem
> with Google Translate in German this week when I quickly wanted to
> use it to check the 'du', familiar form, of a verb - I tried tweaking
> it but the default always seemed to be the 'Sie' formal form. In the
> end I went to an online dictionary, of which there are plenty.
>
> I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
> work...
>
> 'hast thou a banana?' = 'hast du eine Banane?'.
>
> and if we get more complicated:
>
> 'Knowest thou the way to San Jose?' = 'Kennst du den Weg nach San
> Jose?'
>
> But it breaks down with the verb form I actually wanted this week:
>
> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
> - it should be 'sprichst'
>
> Lets try
>
> 'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
> wanted. Hmm...
>
>
> However, I think you've actually just answered the question -
> partially works for me, anyway. Result, as we say in these parts.
>
[aue only]
--
Ray
UK
Dr Nick
Feb 2, 2012, 3:35:49 PM2/2/12
to
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>
>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>
>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>> terminé votre tâche."
>>
>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>
>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>
>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>> terminé votre tâche."
>>
>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
used.
That's before we bring (not yours Steve) the Kaiser Chiefs into it.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Robert Bannister
Feb 2, 2012, 10:24:21 PM2/2/12
to
form. I don't think "My darlings, are you free?" is going to work.
--
Robert Bannister
Glenn Knickerbocker
Feb 3, 2012, 10:27:35 AM2/3/12
to
On 2/2/2012 10:24 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 2/02/12 6:40 PM, Django Cat wrote:
>> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
>> - it should be 'sprichst'
Try "speakest."
> On 2/02/12 6:40 PM, Django Cat wrote:
>> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's wrong
>> - it should be 'sprichst'
> I'm waiting to see your method for getting to produce an "ihr" verb
> form. I don't think "My darlings, are you free?" is going to work.
"alle" afterward.
¬R
Jack Campin
Feb 3, 2012, 1:49:24 PM2/3/12
to
>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts
>> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu." [...]
>> - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've
>> found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
> Good grief, does that work?
>> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
>> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
> I had exactly the same problem with Google Translate in German [...]
> Good grief, does that work?
>> Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
>> Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
> I've only just read your 'thou hast' comment... wow, this seems to
> work...
Works when translating into Turkish too.
> work...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Mike Lyle
Feb 3, 2012, 6:31:20 PM2/3/12
to
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>
>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>
>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>> terminé votre tāche."
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>>I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>
>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>
>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>>
>>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've found
>>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>>
>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>> recognized as obsolete.)
>
>Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>used.
>
>That's before we bring (not yours Steve) the Kaiser Chiefs into it.
Still around in the SW, too. Sad that they're regarded as low-status
>>
>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>> recognized as obsolete.)
>
>Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>used.
>
>That's before we bring (not yours Steve) the Kaiser Chiefs into it.
forms.
--
Mike.
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 4:40:29 AM2/4/12
to
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> > 'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
> > wanted. Hmm...
> >
> However, 'Speak'st thou Italian' = 'Sprichst du Italienisch'.
Hmm, interesting. Part of the problem here is that there's no single
> > 'Speakest thou Italian?' = 'Redest du Italienisch?' - not the verb I
> > wanted. Hmm...
> >
> However, 'Speak'st thou Italian' = 'Sprichst du Italienisch'.
agreed regular form for those 'thou' forms.
Modern Yorkshire dialect speakers would be more likely to say 'Dost
thou speak Italian?'. That comes out as 'Weißt du Italienisch
sprechen?', which I think is probably not good German...
DC
--
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 4:41:56 AM2/4/12
to
target language to reassemble a statement as a question, though.
DC
--
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 4:47:06 AM2/4/12
to
Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> On 2/2/2012 10:24 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> > On 2/02/12 6:40 PM, Django Cat wrote:
> >> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's
> wrong >> - it should be 'sprichst'
>
> Try "speakest."
Try seeing above.
> On 2/2/2012 10:24 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> > On 2/02/12 6:40 PM, Django Cat wrote:
> >> 'Speak thou Italian?' = 'Sprich du Italienisch'? - except that's
> wrong >> - it should be 'sprichst'
>
> Try "speakest."
>
> > I'm waiting to see your method for getting to produce an "ihr" verb
> > form. I don't think "My darlings, are you free?" is going to work.
>
> "You all" seems to do the trick, if you don't mind chopping out the
> "alle" afterward.
>
with 'you all' - and it doesn't like 'yous' or youse' either.
DC
--
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 4:46:57 AM2/4/12
to
Don Phillipson wrote:
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple
> > texts - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> > termini votre tbche."
> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple
> > texts - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> >
> > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> >
> > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> >
> > But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tbche," the only way I've
> > found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
>
I think we all know that - although the thee/thou forms are sometimes
>
> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> recognized as obsolete.)
>
herad in some Northern english dialects - and maybe even in New
England? I'm thinking Amish?
As MC says, the question is how to fool Google Translate.
DC
--
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 4:57:58 AM2/4/12
to
MC wrote:
> In article <jgec5l$fd8$3...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> > news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >
> > > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple
> > > texts - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> > >
> > > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> > >
> > > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> > > terminé votre tâche."
> In article <jgec5l$fd8$3...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
> > news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >
> > > I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple
> > > texts - it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
> > >
> > > However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
> > >
> > > If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
> > >
> > > But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've
> > > found so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
> >
> > These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> > been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> > of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> > recognized as obsolete.)
>
> I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> tutoyage (?) I want.
> >
> > > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
> >
> > This would seem anomalous, because French prefers vous
> > as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
> > political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
>
> I know that too, of course, but it doesn't alter the fact that I need
> "tu" more than I need "vous" and there doesn't seem to be a way
> (other than thou, thine) to achieve it.
OK, MC, here's the next step...
> >
> > These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
> > been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
> > of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
> > recognized as obsolete.)
>
> I know, of course, but it seems to be the only way to achieve the
> tutoyage (?) I want.
> >
> > > Does anyone know of a setting or preference somewhere on Google
> > > Translate that will let you select "tutoyer" as a default?
> >
> > This would seem anomalous, because French prefers vous
> > as the default (i.e. frequent usage as in Quebec and certain
> > political circles has not changed the norms for written French.)
>
> I know that too, of course, but it doesn't alter the fact that I need
> "tu" more than I need "vous" and there doesn't seem to be a way
> (other than thou, thine) to achieve it.
In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
DC
--
Glenn Knickerbocker
Feb 4, 2012, 8:48:14 AM2/4/12
to
On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:47:06 GMT, Django Cat wrote:
>What example are you using for that? I can't get an 'ihr' out of it
>with 'you all' - and it doesn't like 'yous' or youse' either.
The same one Rob gave: Are you all free? -> Seid ihr alle frei?
>What example are you using for that? I can't get an 'ihr' out of it
>with 'you all' - and it doesn't like 'yous' or youse' either.
ŹR - we don't have branes made of clockworks, chocolate maidens
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/arkville.html --the Ur-beatle
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Feb 4, 2012, 10:46:01 AM2/4/12
to
On 2012-02-02 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick said:
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>
>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>
>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>> terminé votre tâche."
>>>
>>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
>>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>>
>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>> recognized as obsolete.)
>
> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
> used.
That was my experience also, in Cheshire in the 1950s.
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>
>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>
>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>> terminé votre tâche."
>>>
>>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
>>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>>
>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>> recognized as obsolete.)
>
> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
> used.
>
> That's before we bring (not yours Steve) the Kaiser Chiefs into it.
--
MC
Feb 4, 2012, 10:56:45 AM2/4/12
to
In article <Gi7Xq.3036$w31...@newsfe02.ams2>,
improved greatly over the 7-8 years I've played with them, and the great
thing about Google Translate is that users are invited to contribute
better translations - which helps accelerate the development.
Knowledge of the target language is a great help, and my French is
pretty good. On any translation job in either direction my first step is
to run the text through Google Translate. It gives some pretty weird
results at times, but it's a lot easier (usually) to edit the result
than to start from scratch.
Another thing that has interesting potential is voice-activated
translation. Not there yet, though... As this demonstrates (and
hilarity ensues):
http://snipurl.com/221r27x [www_youtube_com]
"Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> wrote:
> OK, MC, here's the next step...
>
> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
I'm not sure you can. No machine translator is flawless, but they have
> OK, MC, here's the next step...
>
> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
improved greatly over the 7-8 years I've played with them, and the great
thing about Google Translate is that users are invited to contribute
better translations - which helps accelerate the development.
Knowledge of the target language is a great help, and my French is
pretty good. On any translation job in either direction my first step is
to run the text through Google Translate. It gives some pretty weird
results at times, but it's a lot easier (usually) to edit the result
than to start from scratch.
Another thing that has interesting potential is voice-activated
translation. Not there yet, though... As this demonstrates (and
hilarity ensues):
http://snipurl.com/221r27x [www_youtube_com]
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 11:47:43 AM2/4/12
to
MC wrote:
> In article <Gi7Xq.3036$w31...@newsfe02.ams2>,
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, MC, here's the next step...
> >
> > In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> > 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations
> > change gender according to the actual gender of the person
> > involved. So how are you going to get Google Translate to give you
> > the Italian for 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't
> > work...)
>
> I'm not sure you can. No machine translator is flawless, but they
> have improved greatly over the 7-8 years I've played with them, and
> the great thing about Google Translate is that users are invited to
> contribute better translations - which helps accelerate the
> development.
>
> Knowledge of the target language is a great help, and my French is
> pretty good. On any translation job in either direction my first step
> is to run the text through Google Translate. It gives some pretty
> weird results at times, but it's a lot easier (usually) to edit the
> result than to start from scratch.
I'm pretty impressed with it - I use it on a daily basis as part of my
> In article <Gi7Xq.3036$w31...@newsfe02.ams2>,
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, MC, here's the next step...
> >
> > In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> > 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations
> > change gender according to the actual gender of the person
> > involved. So how are you going to get Google Translate to give you
> > the Italian for 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't
> > work...)
>
> I'm not sure you can. No machine translator is flawless, but they
> have improved greatly over the 7-8 years I've played with them, and
> the great thing about Google Translate is that users are invited to
> contribute better translations - which helps accelerate the
> development.
>
> Knowledge of the target language is a great help, and my French is
> pretty good. On any translation job in either direction my first step
> is to run the text through Google Translate. It gives some pretty
> weird results at times, but it's a lot easier (usually) to edit the
> result than to start from scratch.
work, and getting a gist translation is a great help in my efforts to
learn German and Italian. Like you, my French is pretty good, but I
don't really ever have occasion to use Google Translate with French.
I do wonder about this 'thou = tu/du etc' thing. Has someone sat down
and made a decision that this will be a feature of Google Translate,
or, in the immense complexity of such as project, does it just happen
when you scan in millions of words including archaic pronouns...? But
no, because it knows how to conjugate them. And if someone has made a
decision to put in the thee/thou crack, maybe they did something
similar for gendered nouns. Hmm...
>
> Another thing that has interesting potential is voice-activated
> translation. Not there yet, though... As this demonstrates (and
> hilarity ensues):
>
> http://snipurl.com/221r27x [www_youtube_com]
DC
--
MC
Feb 4, 2012, 11:56:07 AM2/4/12
to
In article <PidXq.65160$Uj7....@newsfe05.ams2>,
everyone switches mid-sentence when vocabulary fails or the slang in one
hasn't provided an equivalent in the other), but my written French isn't
as good, and where it always falls down is in accent use and genders -
and for that GT is a huge help in producing an editable first draft.
"Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> wrote:
> Like you, my French is pretty good, but I don't really ever have occasion to use Google Translate with French.
I am fluent in informal spoken French and Montreal franglais (in which
> Like you, my French is pretty good, but I don't really ever have occasion to use Google Translate with French.
everyone switches mid-sentence when vocabulary fails or the slang in one
hasn't provided an equivalent in the other), but my written French isn't
as good, and where it always falls down is in accent use and genders -
and for that GT is a huge help in producing an editable first draft.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Feb 4, 2012, 12:14:07 PM2/4/12
to
"Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
that gives you "el profesor".
All of these give the correct form (and alternative nouns) as
substitutable options, but that doesn't help if you don't know the
language.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |To express oneself
SF Bay Area (1982-) |In seventeen syllables
Chicago (1964-1982) |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
evan.kir...@gmail.com
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Django Cat
Feb 4, 2012, 2:47:47 PM2/4/12
to
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
> > In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> > 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations
> > change gender according to the actual gender of the person
> > involved. So how are you going to get Google Translate to give you
> > the Italian for 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't
> > work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
> All of these give the correct form (and alternative nouns) as
> substitutable options, but that doesn't help if you don't know the
> language.
Hmm, interesting. 'Mrs Teacher' in Spanish gives 'La señora maestra'.
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
> > In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
> > 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations
> > change gender according to the actual gender of the person
> > involved. So how are you going to get Google Translate to give you
> > the Italian for 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't
> > work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
> All of these give the correct form (and alternative nouns) as
> substitutable options, but that doesn't help if you don't know the
> language.
DC
--
Walter P. Zähl
Feb 4, 2012, 3:05:33 PM2/4/12
to
Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
>> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
>> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
>> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
>> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
>> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
This may just be a weakness of the Spanish translation; it does work for
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
>> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
>> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
>> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
>> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
>> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
German:
"the teacher took her book" -> "Die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch"
Btw: I noticed an interesting cache function - if you just change "her" to
"their" in the same input box, he result is still "die Lehrerin", even
though the gender is now undefined.
Only if you also change the subject, the translation defaults back to the
male form ("the writer" -> "der Schriftsteller").
/Walter
MC
Feb 4, 2012, 4:45:36 PM2/4/12
to
In article
<1928659981350078461.37...@news.individual.net>,
subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
<1928659981350078461.37...@news.individual.net>,
Walter P. Zähl <spams...@zaehl.de> wrote:
> This may just be a weakness of the Spanish translation; it does work for
> German:
> "the teacher took her book" -> "Die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch"
>
> Btw: I noticed an interesting cache function - if you just change "her" to
> "their" in the same input box, he result is still "die Lehrerin", even
> though the gender is now undefined.
> Only if you also change the subject, the translation defaults back to the
> male form ("the writer" -> "der Schriftsteller").
Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
> This may just be a weakness of the Spanish translation; it does work for
> German:
> "the teacher took her book" -> "Die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch"
>
> Btw: I noticed an interesting cache function - if you just change "her" to
> "their" in the same input box, he result is still "die Lehrerin", even
> though the gender is now undefined.
> Only if you also change the subject, the translation defaults back to the
> male form ("the writer" -> "der Schriftsteller").
subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
Peter Moylan
Feb 4, 2012, 6:18:39 PM2/4/12
to
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
>> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
>> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
>> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
>> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
>> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
> All of these give the correct form (and alternative nouns) as
> substitutable options, but that doesn't help if you don't know the
> language.
>
"She is a teacher" -> "Ella es una maestra"
> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
>> In many European languages (sometimes in English with words like
>> 'waitress' and the contentious 'actress') words for occupations change
>> gender according to the actual gender of the person involved. So how
>> are you going to get Google Translate to give you the Italian for
>> 'woman teacher'? (Entering 'woman teacher' doesn't work...)
>
> It seems to depend on the language. For Spanish:
>
> The teacher sat => El maestro sentó
> The female teacher sat => La profesora se sentó
>
> Of course, it chose a completely different noun. Also
>
> The male teacher set => El profesor de sexo masculino sentado
>
> which seems to be talking about the one sat on something.
>
> I had hoped that you could do it with "The teacher saw herself", but
> that gives you "el profesor".
>
> All of these give the correct form (and alternative nouns) as
> substitutable options, but that doesn't help if you don't know the
> language.
>
"She is a professor" -> "Ella es una profesora"
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Robert Bannister
Feb 4, 2012, 7:05:22 PM2/4/12
to
On 4/02/12 9:48 PM, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:47:06 GMT, Django Cat wrote:
>> What example are you using for that? I can't get an 'ihr' out of it
>> with 'you all' - and it doesn't like 'yous' or youse' either.
>
> The same one Rob gave: Are you all free? -> Seid ihr alle frei?
But this is strange too, as the expected form would be "Sind Sie alle
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:47:06 GMT, Django Cat wrote:
>> What example are you using for that? I can't get an 'ihr' out of it
>> with 'you all' - and it doesn't like 'yous' or youse' either.
>
> The same one Rob gave: Are you all free? -> Seid ihr alle frei?
frei?" - maybe Mr Humphries has tampered with the coding.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Feb 4, 2012, 7:11:40 PM2/4/12
to
French, "his" and "her" are the same.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Feb 4, 2012, 7:12:24 PM2/4/12
to
On 4/02/12 11:46 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2012-02-02 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick said:
>
>> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>>
>>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>>
>>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>>
>>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>>> terminé votre tāche."
> On 2012-02-02 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick said:
>
>> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>>
>>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>>
>>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>>
>>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>>>
>>>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tāche," the only way I've found
>>>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>>>
>>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>>> recognized as obsolete.)
>>
>> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>> used.
>
> That was my experience also, in Cheshire in the 1950s.
But is it "thou" or "tha"?
>>>
>>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>>> recognized as obsolete.)
>>
>> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>> used.
>
> That was my experience also, in Cheshire in the 1950s.
--
Robert Bannister
Walter P. Zähl
Feb 4, 2012, 7:56:04 PM2/4/12
to
this.
I've played around some more and it seems Google is fairly inconsistent.
"the teacher takes her book" -> "Der Lehrer nimmt ihr Buch"
"the teacher took her book" -> "Die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch"
And so on - seems it was just a coincidence I got the correct result with
my first example.
/Walter
Christian Weisgerber
Feb 4, 2012, 6:36:46 PM2/4/12
to
> "the teacher took her book" -> "Die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch"
>
> Btw: I noticed an interesting cache function - if you just change "her" to
> "their" in the same input box, he result is still "die Lehrerin", even
> though the gender is now undefined.
I don't think there's any caching. I've been going back and forth
>
> Btw: I noticed an interesting cache function - if you just change "her" to
> "their" in the same input box, he result is still "die Lehrerin", even
> though the gender is now undefined.
between a number of variations and there is no dependency on the
previous one.
the teacher -> der Lehrer
the teacher took -> die Lehrerin nahm
the teacher took her book -> die Lehrerin nahm ihr Buch
the teacher takes her book -> der Lehrer nimmt ihr Buch
the teacher her book -> die Lehrerin ihr Buch
the teacher eats her book -> die Lehrerin frisst ihr Buch
the teacher ate her book -> der Lehrer aßen ihr Buch
The last one has a wrong verb form. So much for using Google
Translate to check for agreement.
The gender mapping for "teacher" appears to be arbitary.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
Feb 4, 2012, 6:44:27 PM2/4/12
to
MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
Good luck with that. It failed at my very first attempt to trick
> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
it:
the apple I ate -> la pomme que j'ai mangé
(That should be "mangée". The participle agrees with a preposed
direct object.)
Christian Weisgerber
Feb 4, 2012, 6:46:26 PM2/4/12
to
MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
> subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
In German it agrees with both.
> Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
> subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
MC
Feb 4, 2012, 8:23:35 PM2/4/12
to
In article <9p5vps...@mid.individual.net>,
of the possessor, hence:
"son livre" = his or her book
"sa table" = his or her table
Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French. You
have to cast the sentence in roundabout ways to make it clear that the
possessor of a male possession is female (and vice versa).
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
> > subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
> >
>
> The Possessive does agree with the object in German. It's just that in
> French, "his" and "her" are the same.
Not quite. They agree with the gender of the *possession* not the gender
> > Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
> > subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
> >
>
> The Possessive does agree with the object in German. It's just that in
> French, "his" and "her" are the same.
of the possessor, hence:
"son livre" = his or her book
"sa table" = his or her table
Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French. You
have to cast the sentence in roundabout ways to make it clear that the
possessor of a male possession is female (and vice versa).
Dr Nick
Feb 5, 2012, 4:18:08 AM2/5/12
to
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
> On 4/02/12 11:46 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2012-02-02 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick said:
>>
>>> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>>>
>>>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>>>> terminé votre tâche."
> On 4/02/12 11:46 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2012-02-02 20:35:49 +0000, Dr Nick said:
>>
>>> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> "MC" <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:copespaz-E29DF1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>>> I often use Google Translate from English to French for simple texts -
>>>>> it ensures correct spellings, accents and agreements.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I have a problem with "vous" and "tu."
>>>>>
>>>>> If I enter "You have finished your task" it defaults to "Vous avez
>>>>>
>>>>> But if I want it to say "Tu as fini ta tâche," the only way I've found
>>>>> so far is to enter "Thou hast finished thy task."
>>>>
>>>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>>>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>>>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>>>> recognized as obsolete.)
>>>
>>> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>>> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>>> used.
>>
>> That was my experience also, in Cheshire in the 1950s.
>
> But is it "thou" or "tha"?
Then you get into that argument about whether words in non-standard
>>>>
>>>> These forms of both the pronouns and the verbs have
>>>> been obsolete in English for centuries. (They lived on
>>>> of course, in Shakespeare and the Bible, but are now
>>>> recognized as obsolete.)
>>>
>>> Thou as a pronoun wasn't obsolete when I was growing up in the NW of
>>> England in the 1960s. Only used by a subset of people, but actively
>>> used.
>>
>> That was my experience also, in Cheshire in the 1950s.
>
> But is it "thou" or "tha"?
dialects that have distinct pronunciations are different words.
Is "nowt" the same as "nought"?, is "nobbut", "nought but"?, is
"bath-with-a-short-a" "bath-with-a-long-a".
See Scots, passim.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Walter P. Zähl
Feb 5, 2012, 11:15:52 AM2/5/12
to
Until I realized I had been doing this implicitly in German all the time
;-)
I had similar problem understanding the same principle in Hindi,
again, until I realized ...
It just comes natural, when you're a native speaker, I guess.
Of course, it creates problems when translating from a language that does
not make this gender distinction ... and HUGE problems for p.c. fanatics.
/Walter
/Walter
R H Draney
Feb 5, 2012, 2:30:12 PM2/5/12
to
Dr Nick filted:
unrelated word meaning "uncommon", even if they're both spelled and pronounced
the same?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>Then you get into that argument about whether words in non-standard
>dialects that have distinct pronunciations are different words.
>
>Is "nowt" the same as "nought"?, is "nobbut", "nought but"?, is
>"bath-with-a-short-a" "bath-with-a-long-a".
>
>See Scots, passim.
Even without dialects, is a word meaning "undercooked" the same word as the
>Then you get into that argument about whether words in non-standard
>dialects that have distinct pronunciations are different words.
>
>Is "nowt" the same as "nought"?, is "nobbut", "nought but"?, is
>"bath-with-a-short-a" "bath-with-a-long-a".
>
>See Scots, passim.
unrelated word meaning "uncommon", even if they're both spelled and pronounced
the same?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Christian Weisgerber
Feb 5, 2012, 1:53:54 PM2/5/12
to
MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> "son livre" = his or her book
> "sa table" = his or her table
>
> Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French.
Blame the Romans. In fact, French has already innovated by coining
> "son livre" = his or her book
> "sa table" = his or her table
>
> Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French.
a separate form for "their".
Robert Bannister
Feb 5, 2012, 7:38:33 PM2/5/12
to
context. English has just that bit more ambiguity.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Feb 5, 2012, 7:45:36 PM2/5/12
to
On 5/02/12 9:23 AM, MC wrote:
> In article<9p5vps...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
>>> subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
>>>
>>
>> The Possessive does agree with the object in German. It's just that in
>> French, "his" and "her" are the same.
>
> Not quite. They agree with the gender of the *possession* not the gender
> of the possessor, hence:
>
> "son livre" = his or her book
> "sa table" = his or her table
Which still means that "his" and "her" are the same in French, agreeing
> In article<9p5vps...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> Doesn't that depend on whether the possessive pronoun agrees with the
>>> subject (as in English) or the object (as in French)?
>>>
>>
>> The Possessive does agree with the object in German. It's just that in
>> French, "his" and "her" are the same.
>
> Not quite. They agree with the gender of the *possession* not the gender
> of the possessor, hence:
>
> "son livre" = his or her book
> "sa table" = his or her table
with the object, which is what I wrote. In German, his (sein, seine,
seinen, seinem, seiner, etc.) and her (ihr, ihre, ihren, ihrem, ihrer,
etc.) are different from each other but still have to agree with the
object of "gender of the *possession* as you put it. However, "her" and
"their" are the same in German and with a capital letter so is "your",
so confusion can still reign. German can get round this partly by using
the "of which" pronoun; in French, you'd have to add something like "to
him".
>
> Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French. You
> have to cast the sentence in roundabout ways to make it clear that the
> possessor of a male possession is female (and vice versa).
>
--
Mike Lyle
Feb 6, 2012, 10:23:17 AM2/6/12
to
On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 18:53:54 +0000 (UTC), na...@mips.inka.de (Christian
Weisgerber) wrote:
>MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>
>> "son livre" = his or her book
>> "sa table" = his or her table
>>
>> Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French.
>
>Blame the Romans. In fact, French has already innovated by coining
>a separate form for "their".
The Romans had it, too, though not in the literary language. _Leur_ is
Weisgerber) wrote:
>MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>
>> "son livre" = his or her book
>> "sa table" = his or her table
>>
>> Which I've always thought of as a bit of a shortcoming in French.
>
>Blame the Romans. In fact, French has already innovated by coining
>a separate form for "their".
a derivative of "illorum".
--
Mike.
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