is "mam" a proper english word to call a lady?
gang zhang
say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or "ma'am".
Thanks.
Skitt
Use www.m-w.com, where it has
Main Entry: ma'am
Pronunciation: 'mam, after "yes" often &m
Function: noun
: MADAM
and
Main Entry: mad·am
Pronunciation: 'ma-d&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural madams
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French ma dame, literally, my lady
1 plural mes·dames /mA-'däm, -'dam/ : LADY -- used without a name as a form
of respectful or polite address to a woman
2 : MISTRESS 1 -- used as a title formerly with the given name but now with
the surname or especially with a designation of rank or office <Madam
Chairman> <Madam President>
3 : the female head of a house of prostitution
4 : the female head of a household : WIFE
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Martin Ambuhl
> I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I heard people
> say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or "ma'am".
[COD11]
ma’am
· n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for female
royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
don groves
mam...@earthlink.net poured forth...
> gang zhang wrote:
> > I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I heard people
> > say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or "ma'am".
>
> [COD11]
> · n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for female
> royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
And, with some women, it's safer to use than "lady".
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
gang zhang
sir/mam.
Thanks, folks.
"don groves" <dgr...@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bd4e1986...@news.individual.net...
Peter Moylan
I think you're supposed to use "mum" for female royalty, reserving
"ma'am" for commoners.
--
Peter Moylan peter at ee dot newcastle dot edu dot au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
dcw
Mike Mooney <m.j.m...@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
>"dcw" <D.C....@ukc.ac.uk> wrote in message news:8...@myrtle.ukc.ac.uk...
>> For the Queen, it's "ma'am rhymes with jam". Not many people are
>> qualified to call her "mum".
>
>I have a sneaky feeling that calling the Queen "ma'am rhymes with jam" is
>"non-U". I think the "correct" pronunciation may actually be "mum", as
>originally suggested.
Years ago, when the Queen opened a new building here, those selected to
meet her (I was not one) were instructed to say "ma'am rhymes with jam".
I presume that was to present a proper degree of U-ness.
David
Jim Ward
> I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I heard people
> say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or "ma'am".
You could also be hearing Ma'a'a'm, short for Malayalam.
Ross Howard
And high did Hah Medgestay respond?
(Eckshlay, in Royal/Sloane RP it *doesn't* rhyme with "jam", since the
"ma'am" used to address Brenda the Bludgeoner has a flat vowel,
somewhere between the /V/ of RP "mum" and a Northern "a" (/a/),
whereas "jam" has a weird diphthongy thing -- perhaps best rendered
in the IPA as something like /e&/. Agreed, though, that it doesn't
rhyme with "calm", which is what I suppose they mean by the "rhymes
with jam" business. )
--
Ross Howard
M. J. Powell
<pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> writes
>Martin Ambuhl hayshed:
>>gang zhang wrote:
>>> I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I heard people
>>> say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or "ma'am".
>>
>>[COD11]
>>ma’am
>>· n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for female
>>royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
>
>I think you're supposed to use "mum" for female royalty, reserving
>"ma'am" for commoners.
No. It's 'Mam', to rhyme with 'jam' not 'farm'. Or so we were taught
when I was in the RAF.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Jess Askin
"Martin Ambuhl" <mam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2t0t1cF...@uni-berlin.de...
In the UK, "ma'am" is reserved for female royalty? So I guess"wham, bam,
thank you ma'am" would amount to lays majesté?
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
>> I think you're supposed to use "mum" for female royalty,
>> reserving "ma'am" for commoners.
>
> No. It's 'Mam', to rhyme with 'jam' not 'farm'. Or so we were
> taught when I was in the RAF.
You were taught correctly. (It's one of the things they cover in the
standard orientation talk for new employees at Buckingham Palace:
'"ma'am" as in "pam" not "palm"' was how they put it.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
Harvey Van Sickle
As noted elsethread, the orientation talk for new employees at
Buckingham Palace -- "Bee-Pee" as it's known there -- describes the
sound as "mam as in pam not palm".
M. J. Powell
<harve...@ntlworld.com> writes
>On 12 Oct 2004, M. J. Powell wrote
>> In message <slrncmntdd...@EEPJM.newcastle.edu.au>, Peter
>> Moylan
>
>-snip-
>
>>> I think you're supposed to use "mum" for female royalty,
>>> reserving "ma'am" for commoners.
>>
>> No. It's 'Mam', to rhyme with 'jam' not 'farm'. Or so we were
>> taught when I was in the RAF.
>
>You were taught correctly. (It's one of the things they cover in the
>standard orientation talk for new employees at Buckingham Palace:
>'"ma'am" as in "pam" not "palm"' was how they put it.)
Of course I was taught correctly. It was the RAF.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Areff
> In alt.usage.english, Jess Askin wrote:
>>In the UK, "ma'am" is reserved for female royalty?
>
>
> Also in some parts "mam" is roughly equivalent to AmE "mom".
Presumably it's even pronounced identically to, say, the ErkE
pronunciation of "mom" with its fronted cot vowel (NTTAWWFCV).
--
Maria Conlon
> Years ago, when the Queen opened a new building here, those selected
> to meet her (I was not one) were instructed to say "ma'am rhymes with
> jam". I presume that was to present a proper degree of U-ness.
And what did Queen Elizabeth do when greeted by someone who said "ma'am
rhymes with jam"? Did she merely smile, avert her eyes, and talk to
someone else? Or did she attempt another rhyme -- perhaps "but mum
rhymes with bum"?
Maria Conlon
Donna Richoux
[snip discussion of "mam" or "ma'am", where someone quoted:]
> > >>
> > >>[COD11]
> > >>ma?m
> > >>? n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for female
> > >>royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
> > >
[snip]
> Last time I checked, "a woman" and "any woman" were pretty much synonymous.
> So why would it be "a woman" in general but "any woman" only for N. Amer.
> and archaic?
I would read it to mean, in England, only certain women were deemed
worthy of this term of respect. Women who employed servants, I think,
because on the costume dramas the maids are always saying "Yes, mum."
Nobody would call the maid herself "ma'am," probably not even if she
were off duty, dressed up, and in a completely different location like a
church or shop. It seemed to be an acknowledgement of authority.
While in North America, as I read the dictionary, any woman might be
addressed politely as "ma'am" by another person. It doesn't convey the
idea of "you're the boss."
I think discussion has shown that "sir" is similar in pondiality. The
difference between politeness and deference.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Jess Askin
"Maria Conlon" <mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2t2rquF...@uni-berlin.de...
She either:
1) took one step backward
2) tapped her foot
3) said "how nice for you," and walked away.
depending on how pissed off she was.
Frances Kemmish
> Christopher Green wrote:
>
>>"gang zhang" <umz...@mts.net> wrote in message
>>news:<A6Iad.2468$FW4....@news1.mts.net>...
>>
>>>is "mam" a short form of "ma'am"? I did see it from time to time,
>>>like Dear sir/mam.
>>
>>was careless, lazy, or ignorant. The recipient would be justified in
>>discarding any such correspondence unread.
>>
>>"Dear Sir or Madam" is not much better but at least isn't illiterate.
>
>
> Dryden: Evening's Love iii. i. (1671) 33 Madam me no Madam, but learn
> to retrench your words; and say Mam; as yes Mam, and no Mam, as other
> Ladies Women do. Madam! 'tis a year in pronouncing.
And don't forget the "proper little madam".
Fran
John Dean
> Jess Askin <nos...@dontbother.net> wrote:
>
> [snip discussion of "mam" or "ma'am", where someone quoted:]
>>>>>
>>>>> [COD11]
>>>>> ma?m
>>>>> ? n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for
>>>>> female royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
>>>>
> [snip]
>
>> Last time I checked, "a woman" and "any woman" were pretty much
>> synonymous. So why would it be "a woman" in general but "any woman"
>> only for N. Amer. and archaic?
>
> I would read it to mean, in England, only certain women were deemed
> worthy of this term of respect. Women who employed servants, I think,
> because on the costume dramas the maids are always saying "Yes, mum."
> Nobody would call the maid herself "ma'am," probably not even if she
> were off duty, dressed up, and in a completely different location
> like a church or shop. It seemed to be an acknowledgement of
> authority.
>
emporium as 'Moddom' - as in 'Would Moddom care to see something in the
economy range?'
--
John Dean
Oxford
Pat Durkin
Dear
> sir/mam.
>
"mam" may have the same meaning and pronunciation.
There are many variations on the words, which may not be etymologically
related, and context will tell you when the word means "mother". In direct
address "Mum, or Mam, (Mummy, Mammy, Mumsy, etc.)" are intimate, informal
and affectionate terms. Madam, Madame and Ma'am (Mam) would not be used in
such informal situations.
Contractions such as "Yes'm", are more likely to be from the more formal
meaning.
One for my master,
One for my dame, (my dame. . .madam, my mistress.)
One for the little boy who lives down the lane.
Christopher Green
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Christopher Green wrote:
>> "gang zhang" <umz...@mts.net> wrote in message
>> news:<A6Iad.2468$FW4....@news1.mts.net>...
>>> is "mam" a short form of "ma'am"? I did see it from time to time,
>>> like Dear sir/mam.
>>
>> No, it is not a legitimate short form of "ma'am". It means the writer
>> was careless, lazy, or ignorant. The recipient would be justified in
>> discarding any such correspondence unread.
>>
>> "Dear Sir or Madam" is not much better but at least isn't illiterate.
>
> Dryden: Evening's Love iii. i. (1671) 33 Madam me no Madam, but learn
>to retrench your words; and say Mam; as yes Mam, and no Mam, as other
>Ladies Women do. Madam! 'tis a year in pronouncing.
In Dryden's usage, it predates any attempt to standardize spelling,
and it's poetic license. In the OP's usage, it's a solecism.
--
Chris Green
John Dean
"predates *any* attempt to standardize spelling"? I'd have to call that
a little harsh. We might dismiss Orrm and his Orrmulum as being a little
woolly (though we'd concede, wouldn't we, that his heart was in the
right place?)
But we'd have to give Bullokar some credit, shirley? And Cheke,
Mulcaster, Alexander Gil and all?
Not to mention John Hart:
http://www.lhss.uce.ac.uk/englishweb/Texts/Hart/HartOrth/HartOrthPref.htm
"But in the moderne and present maner of writing (aswefl of certaine
other languages as of our English) there is such confusion and disorder,
as it may be accounted rather a kinde of ciphring, or such a darke kinde
of writing, as the best and readiest wit that euer hath bene, could, or
that is or shalbe, can or may, by the only gift of reason, attaine to
the ready and perfite reading thereof, without a long and tedious
labour, for that it is vnfit and wrong shapen for the proportion of the
voice."
...
"Wherefore I will nowe signifie vnto such as haue not wilfully professed
them selues to be obstinate in their custome, that the vse and
experience of thorder of this following English Orthographie, shall
bring these commodities following. First (1) it shall cause the naturall
English knowing no letter, to be able to learne to decerne and easily to
reade (Whatsoeuer he may see before him so written or printed) so soone
as he were able to learne readily, and perfecily to know and name, the
number of figures or members of the bodie and substance of our voice and
speach, and so obseruing the new or straunge order hereafter written,
the learned man may instruct any naturall English reasonable creature,
to read English, in one quarter of the time that euer any other hath
heretofore bene taught to reade, by any former maner. And in what lesse
time, and (4 b) how much more easie and readie, it will be for the
writer or Printer, Reader and hearer, I will not write, but leaue it to
the iudgement of the Reader, of the sayd following treatise, and to the
experience it selfe as occasion shall serue."
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mike Lyle
Isn't the standard Royal formula "How very interesting!" As on the
Private Eye cover photo of her greeting Ceauscescu: "And what do you
do?" "I'm a mass-murderer." "How very interesting!"
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
"Some women"?
Excuse me, ma'am, ...
Excuse me, lady, ...
I can't offhand think of any situation in which the latter wouldn't be
taken as somewhat offensive--and in which it would be used (by an
adult native speaker, at least) were it not so intended.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring
|bankers.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
[...]
> However, in days gone by the maid might have been addressed in an
> emporium as 'Moddom' - as in 'Would Moddom care to see something in
> the economy range?'
My two bits' on "Moddom" is that it reached these Fatal Shores in
print from the US, where it represents a sort of shop-assistant's
pseudoEuropron of "madam". Not being generally used to honorifics
other than every schoolchild's "Sir" and "Miss", certain Brits then
assumed this must be the way you said it according to their own
realization of a short o. Certain others, of course, used it
jocularly.
Mike.
Jess Askin
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2t4or6F...@uni-berlin.de...
I originally read this in The Book of Royal Lists (copyright 1982) but I see
I've misremembered it. #1 should have been "She gives you a frozen stare
and says nothing" and in #3 she says "How amusing for you," not "nice"
(which anyway doesn't sound like a very Royal word.) Taking one step
backward is how she indicates that your conversation is terminated (without
prejudice) at a garden party or suchlike.
John Dean
> In article <ckj764$45m$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>
>> We might dismiss Orrm and his Orrmulum as being a
>> little woolly (though we'd concede, wouldn't we, that his heart was
>> in the right place?)
>
> his own name?
>
David Crystal thinks so. Which is good enough for me. Apparently he
called himself Orrm and Orrmin (Orrm did, not David Crystal). His
brother Walter just called himself Walter. It is not recorded if either
were ever called late for supper.
http://www.english.su.se/nlj/ormproj/info/biography.htm
" ...at one place he gives his name as Orrm (Şiss boc iss nemmnedd.
orrmulum; / Forr şi şatt orrm itt wrohhte.), at another he states that
at the place where he was baptized, he was given the name Orrmin "
I see many on-line call him 'Orm', but I would rather call him what he
called himself.
--
Johnn Deann
Oxford
R J Valentine
...
} Excuse me, ma'am, ...
} Excuse me, lady, ...
}
} I can't offhand think of any situation in which the latter wouldn't be
} taken as somewhat offensive--and in which it would be used (by an
} adult native speaker, at least) were it not so intended.
Not a real computer programmer, I guess: "Excuse me, lady, you dropped
your wallet."
I was using a computer program the other day where I wanted to "print" a
big report to a computer file. I've got plenty of disk space, and I've
never had a printer attached to that computer, and I was only interested
in the last page of the report, anyway. But the program, although it had
a print-to-file option wouldn't do so, because the "printer" wasn't
ready. So after several iterations of how-stupid-did-I-think-they-really-
were, I went ahead and "installed" a "printer" (where none had been
installed before, and without actually plugging one in). Turns out that
the program didn't really care that the computer was ready, just that one
was installed, so it could ignore it. I guess they just couldn't offhand
think of any situation in which someone would want to print a report
without ever having had a printer installed.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
don groves
sent to the cited author.]
In article <zn2qaa...@hpl.hp.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum at
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com poured forth...
> don groves <dgr...@domain.net> writes:
>
> > In article <2t0t1cF...@uni-berlin.de>, Martin Ambuhl at
> > mam...@earthlink.net poured forth...
> >> gang zhang wrote:
> >> > I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I
> >> > heard people say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or
> >> > "ma'am".
> >>
> >> [COD11]
> >> ma?am
> >> · n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for female
> >> royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
> >
> > And, with some women, it's safer to use than "lady".
>
> "Some women"?
>
> Excuse me, ma'am, ...
> Excuse me, lady, ...
>
> I can't offhand think of any situation in which the latter wouldn't be
> taken as somewhat offensive--and in which it would be used (by an
> adult native speaker, at least) were it not so intended.
My understated "some" was a reference to the women's lib
movement's rejection of the term "lady" in any context.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
dcw
John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>dcw wrote:
>> Orm was rather keen on double consonants, but did he ever use them in
>> his own name?
>
>David Crystal thinks so. Which is good enough for me. Apparently he
>called himself Orrm and Orrmin (Orrm did, not David Crystal). His
>brother Walter just called himself Walter. It is not recorded if either
>were ever called late for supper.
>http://www.english.su.se/nlj/ormproj/info/biography.htm
>
>" ...at one place he gives his name as Orrm (Şiss boc iss nemmnedd.
>orrmulum; / Forr şi şatt orrm itt wrohhte.), at another he states that
>at the place where he was baptized, he was given the name Orrmin "
I met that recently, but I can't remember where, so I can't check the
spelling. It might have been modernized anyway.
>I see many on-line call him 'Orm', but I would rather call him what he
>called himself.
Indeed, particularly as double consonants seem to have been an
important part of his spelling system. But all the printed sources
I have to hand call him "Orm", which is why I asked.
David
John Dean
> In article <ckm0ub$c3p$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>> dcw wrote:
>
>>> Orm was rather keen on double consonants, but did he ever use them
>>> in his own name?
>>
>> David Crystal thinks so. Which is good enough for me. Apparently he
>> called himself Orrm and Orrmin (Orrm did, not David Crystal). His
>> brother Walter just called himself Walter. It is not recorded if
>> either were ever called late for supper.
>> http://www.english.su.se/nlj/ormproj/info/biography.htm
>>
>> " ...at one place he gives his name as Orrm (Şiss boc iss nemmnedd.
>> orrmulum; / Forr şi şatt orrm itt wrohhte.), at another he states
>> that at the place where he was baptized, he was given the name
>> Orrmin "
>
> I met that recently, but I can't remember where, so I can't check the
> spelling. It might have been modernized anyway.
>
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> don groves <dgr...@domain.net> writes:
>
>> In article <2t0t1cF...@uni-berlin.de>, Martin Ambuhl at
>> mam...@earthlink.net poured forth...
>>> gang zhang wrote:
>>>> I can't find any formal definition from online dictionaries. I
>>>> heard people say it a lot everyday, but not sure if it's "mam" or
>>>> "ma'am".
>>>
>>> [COD11]
>>> ma?am
>>> · n. a respectful form of address for a woman, in particular for
>>> female royalty or (N. Amer. or archaic) any woman.
>>
>> And, with some women, it's safer to use than "lady".
>
> "Some women"?
>
> Excuse me, ma'am, ...
> Excuse me, lady, ...
>
> I can't offhand think of any situation in which the latter wouldn't be
> taken as somewhat offensive--and in which it would be used (by an
> adult native speaker, at least) were it not so intended.
Indeed. And in the North of England it was always fighting talk used by
one woman to another - "Who are you calling 'lady', lady?" and still
popular (rightly) with the writers of 'Coronation Street'.
--
John Dean
Oxford
dcw
I haven't read that yet. It was Melvyn Bragg's _The Adventure of
English_. And he gets it right: thorns, double "r"s, and all.
Odd that everyone, including David Crystal, calls him "Orm".
David
John Dean
I thought I'd made it clear that I see the 'Orrm' spelling in Crystal's
'Stories of English'.
--
John Dean
Oxford
dcw
>>>> In article <ckm0ub$c3p$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>>>> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> " ...at one place he gives his name as Orrm (Şiss boc iss nemmnedd.
>>>>> orrmulum; / Forr şi şatt orrm itt wrohhte.), at another he states
>>>>> that at the place where he was baptized, he was given the name
>>>>> Orrmin "
>> Odd that everyone, including David Crystal, calls him "Orm".
>I thought I'd made it clear that I see the 'Orrm' spelling in Crystal's
>'Stories of English'.
Sorry, I misunderstood. All I can see above is that he called himself
"Orrm". I looked in Crystal's Encyclopaedia of the English Language,
or whatever it's called. He spells it "Orm" there. Perhaps he's changed
his mind.
David
Peter Duncanson
>In article <1153735368.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
>Mike M <mikm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>Oleg Lego wrote:
>>
>>> muhdeevil and medee-evil are the ones I hear most often.
>>
>>That second one is what I would consider the "correct" pronunciation.
>
>That's what I say, and so does COED10. Four syllables.
>
If we use the spelling "mediaeval" we could produce a five-syllable
version: "media evil".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)