ASCII IPA in a nutshell

[James Silverton]

I find Bob Cunningham's "ASCII IPA in a nutshell" to be very useful.
http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/nutshell.shtml .

As he mentions, there seems to be no British version but is there
anything as succinct for pronunciation discussions? I am neither
qualified nor interested in discussing more technical matters.



--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Guy Barry]

"James Silverton" wrote in message news:k47c3i$5fr$1...@dont-email.me...

> I find Bob Cunningham's "ASCII IPA in a nutshell" to be very useful.
> http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/nutshell.shtml .

> As he mentions, there seems to be no British version but is there
> anything as succinct for pronunciation discussions?

I always use this page for reference:

http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml

I don't know of anything more concise than that.

--
Guy Barry

[James Silverton]

Thanks, that is very good but much more comprehensive than I was
looking for.

[Curlytop]

James Silverton set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> As he mentions, there seems to be no British version

Think of what the A of ASCII stands for.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <k47mki$7mc$1...@dont-email.me>,

Curlytop <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>James Silverton set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
>
>> As he mentions, there seems to be no British version
>
>Think of what the A of ASCII stands for.

So you're looking for ISO 646-IRV IPA?

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Guy Barry]

"James Silverton" wrote in message news:k47m09$1id$1...@dont-email.me...

It wouldn't be that hard to put together a British version, would it? I
could have a go but I don't know how to record sound files.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

> "Curlytop" wrote in message news:k47mki$7mc$1...@dont-email.me...

> James Silverton set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:

> > As he mentions, there seems to be no British version

> Think of what the A of ASCII stands for.

That refers to the character set.

--
Guy Barry

[Whiskers]

<http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm> might be useful. It
compares American with British sounds for some symbols - but ignores any
regional or other variations. I don't know of anywhere that attempts to
include the sounds of Caribbean, Australian, Indian, or other varieties of
English.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Guy Barry]

"Whiskers" wrote in message
news:slrnk6guin.h...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...

> On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > It wouldn't be that hard to put together a British version, would it? I
> > could have a go but I don't know how to record sound files.

> <http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm> might be useful.

It's good but it's not the same as the one we use on a.u.e, which was
developed by Evan Kirshenbaum. I think we should all stick to the same
conventions here or else there'll be even more misunderstandings than there
are at the moment.

--
Guy Barry

[Whiskers]

On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Whiskers" wrote in message
> news:slrnk6guin.h...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>
>> On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > It wouldn't be that hard to put together a British version, would it? I
>> > could have a go but I don't know how to record sound files.
>
>> <http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm> might be useful.
>
> It's good but it's not the same as the one we use on a.u.e, which was
> developed by Evan Kirshenbaum. I think we should all stick to the same
> conventions here or else there'll be even more misunderstandings than there
> are at the moment.

Understood, but <http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.html> (or
<http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/ascii-ipa.pdf> which is the actual file)
has no sound files to demonstrate the sound which the symbol attempts to
represent, which the Antimoon page does.

Perhaps someone could create a table to 'convert' from the Kirshenbaum
symbols to the Antimoon equivalents, so that the Antimoon sounds can be
heard.

Antimoon is phonemic rather than phonetic; that simplifies it considerably,
but means it can't be used to describe the _actual_ sounds of a particular
person's speech.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 30 Sep 2012 22:20:42 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

>On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Whiskers" wrote in message
>> news:slrnk6guin.h...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>>
>>> On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> > It wouldn't be that hard to put together a British version, would it? I
>>> > could have a go but I don't know how to record sound files.
>>
>>> <http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm> might be useful.
>>
>> It's good but it's not the same as the one we use on a.u.e, which was
>> developed by Evan Kirshenbaum. I think we should all stick to the same
>> conventions here or else there'll be even more misunderstandings than there
>> are at the moment.
>
>Understood, but <http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.html> (or
><http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/ascii-ipa.pdf> which is the actual file)
>has no sound files to demonstrate the sound which the symbol attempts to
>represent, which the Antimoon page does.
>

There are sound files on the ASCII IPA page on the AUE website:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml



--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Robert Bannister]

The American pronunciation of "call" and "four" seem to use completely
different vowels.

--
Robert Bannister

[Guy Barry]

"Whiskers" wrote in message
news:slrnk6hhf7.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...

> On 2012-09-30, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > It's good but it's not the same as the one we use on a.u.e, which was
> > developed by Evan Kirshenbaum. I think we should all stick to the same
> > conventions here or else there'll be even more misunderstandings than
> > there
> > are at the moment.

> Understood, but <http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.html> (or
> <http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/ascii-ipa.pdf> which is the actual file)
> has no sound files to demonstrate the sound which the symbol attempts to
> represent, which the Antimoon page does.

As has been pointed out, there are links to sound files on the AUE website
already, so it should be possible to incorporate those links.

> Perhaps someone could create a table to 'convert' from the Kirshenbaum
> symbols to the Antimoon equivalents, so that the Antimoon sounds can be
> heard.

I'd be wary of doing this as there are several Antimoon symbols with
different meanings from the same symbol in the Kirshenbaum system (e.g. /@/
is the vowel of "cat" in Antimoon, but schwa in Kirshenbaum). Also it seems
that one symbol in Antimoon can represent more than one sound in
Kirshenbaum, depending on the dialect being transcribed (e.g. the symbol /o/
in Antimoon represents the vowel of "hot", which in Kirshenbaum is /A/ in
AmE but /A./ in BrE).

> Antimoon is phonemic rather than phonetic; that simplifies it
> considerably,
> but means it can't be used to describe the _actual_ sounds of a particular
> person's speech.

Indeed, which is why I think it might be of limited usefulness here, where
we're often concerned with discussing pronunciation differences.

(Incidentally I notice that /th/ is used as a single symbol in Antimoon even
though /t/ and /h/ have their usual individual values. How would they
transcribe the sound of "hothouse"?)

--
Guy Barry

[Mike L]

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 08:10:14 +0100, "Guy Barry"
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
[...]

>
>(Incidentally I notice that /th/ is used as a single symbol in Antimoon even
>though /t/ and /h/ have their usual individual values. How would they
>transcribe the sound of "hothouse"?)

French, innit. /O.'tuz/.

--
Mike.

[Whiskers]

Aha! (Caught out not reading all the FAQs again!)

So what's really needed is more sound files as requested at the foot of
that page.

[Whiskers]

Quite; any such cross-reference would have to be careful to explain the
different purposes of the two systems.

>> Antimoon is phonemic rather than phonetic; that simplifies it
>> considerably,
>> but means it can't be used to describe the _actual_ sounds of a particular
>> person's speech.
>
> Indeed, which is why I think it might be of limited usefulness here, where
> we're often concerned with discussing pronunciation differences.
>
> (Incidentally I notice that /th/ is used as a single symbol in Antimoon even
> though /t/ and /h/ have their usual individual values. How would they
> transcribe the sound of "hothouse"?)

Probably as /'hot//haus/

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 09:57:35 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> The American pronunciation of "call" and "four" seem to use completely
> different vowels.

They seem so to me as well. The sound for "call" is farther back,
and the lips are opened more. For "four" the sound is further front
an dthe lips are rounded though not pursed.

At least, that's how I pronounce them, and that seems to match what I
hear locally and on national TV.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <acsbkf...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>The American pronunciation of "call" and "four" seem to use completely
>different vowels.

Indubitably. I'm not sure how to transcribe my vowel in "call": it's
definitely unrounded, whereas the "four" vowel is just as definitely
rounded. (The "four" vowel is [O]; it's the other one that I can't
quite locate.)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 1, 8:30 pm, woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> In article <acsbkfFc7n...@mid.individual.net>,

> Robert Bannister  <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
> >The American pronunciation of "call" and "four" seem to use completely
> >different vowels.
>
> Indubitably.

I was surprised when I learned, probably in college, that some people
consider them to have the same vowel. Whole countries, it later
turned out.

> I'm not sure how to transcribe my vowel in "call": it's
> definitely unrounded, whereas the "four" vowel is just as definitely
> rounded.  (The "four" vowel is [O]; it's the other one that I can't
> quite locate.)

I asked John Wells this question.

http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/01/aw-shucks.html

There's also some discussion of where in the U.S. "call" and "four"
have the same vowel.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

We might also discuss exactly what is meant by "rounded". I think I have
very few rounded vowels in English. I certainly make my "aw" sound with
a fairly open mouth. Perhaps words like "rule" and "woof" are rounded
but not my "call" or my "four".


--
Robert Bannister

[Bob Cunningham]

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:57:37 PM UTC-7, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 1/10/12 12:58 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>

[...]

> The American pronunciation of "call" and "four" seem to use completely
> different vowels.
>

I came upon this surprising (to me) statement while cruising AUE to see what's been said in recent years about IPA.

I had never realized that "call" is pronounced [kO:l] by some Americans. I had thought that everyone in the US would pronounce it as I do, with my "a" in "father", [kA:l].

Now I've found that every dictionary I've looked in has "call" with only the vowel of "four", [O:]. I'll have to start listening to see if anyone around here actually says [kO:l]

By the way, that "listening to see" seemed so strange after I wrote it that I looked in a dictionary to verify that "find out" is a respectable definition of "see". It is.

Another by the way, while cruising I've seen a message in which I was criticized for not making tenses agree. Let me say that I think strict agreement of tenses is nonsense. To me, it's normal to say, "I found out yesterday that I am four inches shorter than I used to be." It was yesterday that I found out, hence past tense, but I'm still four inches shorter than I was, so present tense.

I may be wrong about that. I'll see what some authorities have to say about it.

[Bob Cunningham]

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:11:55 PM UTC-7, PeterWD wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2012 22:20:42 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>

[...]

>
> There are sound files on the ASCII IPA page on the AUE website:
>
> http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml

While cruising AUE, I see considerable discussion of sound files to show pronunciations of IPA symbols. But I haven't seen any mention of the excellent material offered at http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/ (referenced in the AUE FAQ). They say:

This site contains FLASH animated libraries of the phonetic sounds of
Spanish and English. Available for each consonant and vowel is an
animated articulatory diagram, a step-by-step description, and video-
audio of the sound spoken in context. It is intended for students of
phonetics, linguistics, and foreign language.

In other words you can find there an audio pronunciation for a given symbol and also an illustration showing what the articulatory mechanisms are doing to pronounce the symbol.

It deals with vanilla IPA, not ASCII IPA, but conversion between IPA symbols and ASCII IPA symbols is as simple as looking in the file
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml , where an IPA symbol is shown for each ASCII IPA symbol.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Are you referring to whichever sound files you're looking at?

Because in AmE, they have the same vowel as each other.

Could it be that the sample speaker merges cot/caught in some environments
but not others?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 3:10:16 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Whiskers" wrote in message
> news:slrnk6hhf7.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...

> > Perhaps someone could create a table to 'convert' from the Kirshenbaum
> > symbols to the Antimoon equivalents, so that the Antimoon sounds can be
> > heard.
>
> I'd be wary of doing this as there are several Antimoon symbols with
> different meanings from the same symbol in the Kirshenbaum system (e.g. /@/
> is the vowel of "cat" in Antimoon, but schwa in Kirshenbaum). Also it seems
> that one symbol in Antimoon can represent more than one sound in
> Kirshenbaum, depending on the dialect being transcribed (e.g. the symbol /o/
> in Antimoon represents the vowel of "hot", which in Kirshenbaum is /A/ in
> AmE but /A./ in BrE).

Please use [square brackets] for [phonetic transcription] and /slants/ for
/phonemic transcription/. Thus for your last sentence to be interpretable,
it probably should be "the symbol /o/ in Antimoon represents the vowel of
"hot", which in Kirshenbaum is [A] in AmE but [A.] in BrE."

> > Antimoon is phonemic rather than phonetic; that simplifies it
> > considerably,
> > but means it can't be used to describe the _actual_ sounds of a particular
> > person's speech.
>
> Indeed, which is why I think it might be of limited usefulness here, where
> we're often concerned with discussing pronunciation differences.
>
> (Incidentally I notice that /th/ is used as a single symbol in Antimoon even
> though /t/ and /h/ have their usual individual values. How would they
> transcribe the sound of "hothouse"?)

In actual phonetic transcription, a period < . > marks syllable boundary
when needed.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 9, 2013 6:35:59 AM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:

> Call, Father, far, saw, maw, ma, tall, gall, all sound like the same A:
> to me, though I see the dictionary disagrees and claims gall and maw are
> "mɔː" in IPA. I don't know what that backwards c is, but I don't hear a
> difference between father and call and gall.

You, sir, are a cot/caught mergerer.

Are you perchance west of the Mississippi?

[James Silverton]

Sound files aside, may I again express my thanks, Bob, for the
"Nutshell", which is one of my most used docs. I may not agree entirely
with some of the sound files but I have to be careful because, tho' long
ago, I was educated in Britain.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Bob Cunningham]

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:11:55 PM UTC-7, PeterWD wrote:
>

[...]

>
> There are sound files on the ASCII IPA page on the AUE website:
>
> http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml
>

And those sound files include ones made by a British speaker, Markus Laker; an American speaker, me; files from the compact disk 'Sounds of the IPA', which is copyright 1995 by Department of Phonetics and Linguistics, University College London; and sound samples from the Online Phonetics course at the University of Lausanne; permission having been obtained from the copyright owner in each of the last two cases.

> --
Bob Cunningham
"Wagner's music isn't as bad as it sounds" -- Mark Twain