Do Americans call their family members by names?
NiCK
Dad and Mom?
Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
Brother and Sister?
Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
instead of Aunt and Uncle?
Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
parents to call their children-in-law by names.
Note: parents-in-law and children-in-law are my instant
inventions. No copyright prohibition.
Robert Lipton
There is no standard, but I would venture to say that most Americans
call their mothers Mother, Mom, Mommy, Mama or Ma; their fathers
Father, Papa, Pop, Poppy Daddy or the occasional Sir.
Aunts and uncles get their names, preceded by "Aunt" or "Uncle until
adulthood is reached and sometimes afterwards. Siblings are called by
their names -- if luck. Usually it's "You rotten bastard" in my
family. In-laws vary over the shop, but usually they are granted the
same titles as parents.
Bob
Richard Fontana
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
Some -- a quite small number, I believe -- do, but it seems that most use
a special term (like, *but not limited to*, "Dad" and "Mom"). I believe
that for a child to call his parent by the parent's first name was at one
time associated, stereotypically, with old liberal culture (see, e.g., _To
Kill A Mockingbird_ where the father is addressed as "Atticus" by his
children [Scout and -- what was it, 'Rumer'?]; I can think of some
real-life cases like this).
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Most do. I think it is extremely rare for siblings to be addressed as
"brother" or "sister", and when this is done at all it is usually meant to
be jocular. Sally Brown often addressed her older brother Charlie as "Big
Brother" in the _Peanuts_ comic strip. (Going back to old liberal usage,
in the Orson Welles film _The Stranger_ the father, a judge,
addresses his daughter as "Sister" as a term of endearment.)
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
I think using *just* "Aunt" or "Uncle" as the form of address, without a
name following the title, is not so common, but I have heard this in one
branch of my family, yet more often when adults are speaking to children
and are speaking of aunt or uncle third parties. This might only occur
when the young child has a relatively small number of aunts and
uncles, or where only one aunt/uncle is present so no confusion is
possible. Much more common is to use "Uncle" + first name or "Aunt" (or
"Auntie") + first name: "Uncle Rey", "Aunt (or Auntie) Truly",
etc. (The rules for when to use "Aunt" and when to use "Auntie" seem to
be quite complex, and are based, I believe, on the nature of the first
name that follows the title.) Finally, it is not extremely uncommon for
aunts and uncles to be addressed just by their first names by the niece or
nephew; I think this tends to occur when the aunt or uncle is relatively
close in age to the niece or nephew. I notice that my sister's children
address me just by my first name most of the time but when they think some
authoritative adult is listening, like a parent or grandparent, they'll
add on the "Uncle" title. I have more or less encouraged them not to
address me by "Uncle", so if there are a lot of other people like me
perhaps the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" as forms of address will die out.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
I believe that this is something that really varies more widely than the
other things you've previously asked about. From what I've observed, there
seems to be some generational variation, with older persons more likely to
use a title in addressing their in-laws (not necessarily "Dad" and "Mom",
again) and younger persons more likely to use the in-laws' first
names. When a title-name (like "Mom") is used, note that it isn't
necessarily the title-name used by the biological child of the in-law. As
an example of this, my mother for some reason calls my paternal
grandmother "Mom" (she calls her own mother "Mumma") but, as far as I can
tell, my father never called her "Mom", always using "Ma". (This example
illustrates too the fact that not everyone uses "Dad" and "Mom".)
> I believe it's okay to let
> parents to call their children-in-law by names.
Not only is it okay, I can't imagine what else they could do. Certainly
addressing the child-in-law as "Son-in-Law" or "Daughter-in-Law" has to be
dead rare, if that's what you mean. It is also, I believe, extremely rare
for a parent to address his or her child by "Son" or "Daughter", but I
think the use of "Son" by a father may once have been more common than it
is today, judging from available cultural materials.
> Note: parents-in-law and children-in-law are my instant
> inventions. No copyright prohibition.
They've been in use before. No copyright violation.
Murray Arnow
>Do American people call their parents by names instead of
>Dad and Mom?
By names, I will assume their given/Christian names. It is most common to hear
parents addressed as Mom, Mother, or Pop, Dad, Father and other variants. It
is very rare to hear a natural parent addressed by his/her given name.
>Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
>Brother and Sister?
Siblings most often address each other by their given names. They may often
refer to each other as "my brother" or "my sister."
>Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
>instead of Aunt and Uncle?
The common method of address usually takes the form "Aunt Hortense" or "Uncle
Bob." Sometimes the given name alone is used, a common usage in my family.
>Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
>instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
This usage varies. But it is very common to address your mother- and
father-in-law the same way you address your own parents.
>I believe it's okay to let
>parents to call their children-in-law by names.
>
Yes, it is a common practice.
>Note: parents-in-law and children-in-law are my instant
>inventions. No copyright prohibition.
You needn't worry about copyrights; the words are already in the public
domain.
I am grateful you didn't ask how grandparents are addressed. As far as I know,
there is no general rule.
This all boils down to Americans using the form of family address that their
parents used which "is" typically European based. I am qualifying "is" because
there is a growing Latin American and Asian influence in American culture, and
I don't know how this is altering family address forms.
Jacqui
> Kill A Mockingbird_ where the father is addressed as "Atticus" by his
> children [Scout and -- what was it, 'Rumer'?];
Jem.
Jac
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2001-12-06 08:28 Eastern Standard Time
I agree with all of your post.
In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as
"Grandma" or "Granny" or some special form used in that
family. If only one grandmother is alive, the child will use
only the word "Grandma," without any name. Most likely,
the child does not even know the name. If both are alive,
a name is usually attached. In my opinion, it is more
common to attach the surname--such as "Grandma Smith"
and "Grandma Jones"--than the given name--such as
"Grandma Mary" and "Grandma Martha."
Ross
http://www.geocities.com/ross_klatte/
Richard Fontana
As someone else noted, there's a great deal of variation in the US
regarding how grandparents are addressed by grandchildren. When
"grandma" and "grandpa" are used, I don't think the presence or absence of
a following name in any one instance of use necessarily rests on whether
or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are alive; it might also be based
on whether or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are in the same
place at the same time, or whether both are being discussed in the same
conversation and there's likelihood of confusion.
Your comments about the use of the surname rather than the first name
interest me. By a rather odd coincidence, both of my grandmothers are
named "Eva". My siblings and I grew up using "Grandma" as the form of
address, and "Grandma" + *surname* as the mode of reference when speaking
to familial third parties, in those cases where it might not be clear
which grandmother we were talking about. At some point I was told, maybe
by my older siblings, that our use of "Grandma" + surname was an odd thing
that was necessitated by the fact that our grandmothers shared the same
first name, and that most people would have used "Grandma Eva". But your
comments indicate to me that "Grandma" + surname is less uncommon than I
was informed.
My paternal grandfather died before I was born, so I only knew one
grandfather. He was called "Grandpa" directly and "Grandpa" + surname
when speaking to familial third parties, but perhaps this was done so that
it would be in symmetry with how my maternal grandmother was addressed.
My sister's children seem to use "Grandma" as the direct form of address
and "Grandma" + first name when speaking to familial third parties. With
their grandfathers, they call their paternal grandfather "Bampy" /b&mpi/,
a baby-talk derivative of "grandpa" which I've encountered elsewhere, and
they called my father "papa", which was based on my oldest niece's
baby-talk rendition of "grandpa". There are a great many other terms of
address for grandparents that are unique to particular families, regions,
ethnic groups, etc. Grandmother terms like "nana", "nanny",
"nonna" etc. are common in some families, communities and places, for
example.
Pronunciation of "grandma" and "grandpa": I say [gre@~mA"] and
[gre@~mpA"], something like that. The notable thing there is that I use
the "gram" allophone of /&/ and not the more open and less diphthongal
"grammar" allophone.
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented NiCK broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
Not very many do so. However, most American children do not
live with both of their natural parents who are married to
each other, and it is common, especially for an older child,
to call his or her parent's spouse or paramour by given name.
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Ordinarily siblings call one another by given name.
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
Ordinarily by both: "Aunt (given name)" or "Uncle (given name)."
Usually, the spouse of an aunt is an uncle, and the spouse of
an uncle is an aunt, although those people are not really related
to the speaker. In some families, "aunt" and "uncle" are also
used for close friends of the parents.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
This varies widely. As in the other cases, it is up to
the older party to indicate which form he or she prefers.
A common solution is "Mother (surname)" or "Father (surname)."
> I believe it's okay to let parents to call their children-in-law by
> names.
Yes.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Great authors are admirable in this respect: in every generation they make
for disagreement. Through them we become aware of our differences. --Andre Gide
Richard Fontana
> In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as
> "Grandma" or "Granny" or some special form used in that
> family.
[...]
Another issue is how cousins (of the non-aunt, non-uncle sort) are
addressed. Typically, ordinarily, this is by first name. But I've
noticed that in my father's family certain cousins are spoken of (if not
addressed personally) as "Cousin" + first name. I can't figure out why
some cousins merit the "Cousin" title and others don't. One particular
first cousin of my father's is commonly referred to as "Cousin John", for
example. There's some jocularity in this, I think. But I've encountered
this use of "Cousin" as an almost aunt/uncle-like title in old American
literary materials, where it seems like it might once have been a
non-uncommon bourgeois practice. I also noticed it recently on an episode
of the television series _Judging Amy_: a cousin who had shown up
unexpected was addressed by the surprised main character as "Cousin" +
first name.
Tony Cooper
Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, NiCK wrote:
>
> > Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> > Dad and Mom?
>
> Some -- a quite small number, I believe -- do, but it seems that most use
> a special term (like, *but not limited to*, "Dad" and "Mom"). I believe
> that for a child to call his parent by the parent's first name was at one
> time associated, stereotypically, with old liberal culture (see, e.g., _To
> Kill A Mockingbird_ where the father is addressed as "Atticus" by his
> children [Scout and -- what was it, 'Rumer'?]; I can think of some
> real-life cases like this).
I agree, but divorces and second and third marriages are
complicating things. A child will call his natural father
"Dad", but may not want to call his step-father "Dad". I
don't know that there's a distinct pattern, but use of the
first name seems to be the usage with step-parents. Kids
can have some odd family relationships today.
> > Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> > Brother and Sister?
By name or by nickname.
>
> > Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> > instead of Aunt and Uncle?
>
> I think using *just* "Aunt" or "Uncle" as the form of address, without a
> name following the title, is not so common, but I have heard this in one
> branch of my family, yet more often when adults are speaking to children
> and are speaking of aunt or uncle third parties.
In my family, any relative other than a parent or
grandparent was "Aunt xxxx" or "Uncle xxxxx" if they were
older. Cousin Mike was Uncle Mike. It was too difficult to
separate the actual relationships.
> > Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> > instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
>
> I believe that this is something that really varies more widely than the
> other things you've previously asked about.
My son-in-law calls me "Tony". At one time, early in my
daughter's relationship with him, I was "Mr. Cooper".
There's that awkward time in a new situation where no name
at all is used for fear precedence will be set. It's
usually up to the in-law or potential in-law to declare the
term. I always called my in-laws "Mr. Cleary" and "Mrs.
Cleary", though.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots and Tittles
Joe Manfre
> My sister's children seem to use "Grandma" as the direct form of
> address and "Grandma" + first name when speaking to familial third
> parties. With their grandfathers, they call their paternal
> grandfather "Bampy" /b&mpi/, a baby-talk derivative of "grandpa"
> which I've encountered elsewhere, and they called my father "papa",
> which was based on my oldest niece's baby-talk rendition of
> "grandpa".
As a young child, I too ended up using distinct forms for my paternal
and maternal grandfathers, and these forms were also based on baby-
talk renditions of "grandpop" and "granddad", respectively. I'm
happy to hear that a similar fate has befallen others.
If I'd had any siblings, it would have been interesting to see
whether they would have adopted the nomenclature that I devised
for the two men in question. I wonder why my prose is taking a turn
for the Owlcroftian in this article. I think it's because I didn't
get enough sleep last night.
JM
--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland. www.manfre-land.com
"Hell is full of lairs and ideits." -- Kurt Stocklmeir
Donna Richoux
To be clear:
Scout was the nickname of the narrator, Jean Louise Finch.
Jem was the nickname of her older brother, Jeremy Atticus Finch.
Atticus Finch was their father.
Rumer Godden was some writer who had nothing to do with any of this.
Harper Lee was the woman who wrote "To Kill a Mockingbird."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Joe Manfre
> Another issue is how cousins (of the non-aunt, non-uncle sort) are
> addressed. Typically, ordinarily, this is by first name. But I've
> noticed that in my father's family certain cousins are spoken of (if not
> addressed personally) as "Cousin" + first name. I can't figure out why
> some cousins merit the "Cousin" title and others don't. One particular
> first cousin of my father's is commonly referred to as "Cousin John", for
> example. There's some jocularity in this, I think. But I've encountered
> this use of "Cousin" as an almost aunt/uncle-like title in old American
> literary materials, where it seems like it might once have been a
> non-uncommon bourgeois practice.
I think I've seen some of the same literary materials you're referring
to, but it never struck me as particularly bourgeois. In fact, I think
it has at least sometimes been associated with persons of a less
genteel nature. For example, consider the hillbilly characters who
were popular in the World Wrestling Federation performances I watched
as a pre-teen in the 1980s. The main guy was Hillbilly Jim, and there
was an enormous fellow called Uncle Elmer and a short-lived third
partner called Cousin Junior.
I have never used the "cousin" title, nor have I noticed anyone else
in my family using it. But as a child I often referred to family
members who I perceived to be of my mother's generation as "Uncle
Steve" or "Aunt Linda" or some such, only to be reminded by my
mother that they were her cousins, which would make them my second
cousins once removed or whatever. I was guilty of having perceived
a rule that people my mother's age who were family members were to
be called Uncle [Name] or Aunt [Name]. This may be related to the
practice you'll sometimes encounter in which children will refer to
a friend of their father's as "Uncle Bill" or whatever. I have
never seen female friends of the family called "Aunt Sally" or
whatever, however.
Joe Manfre
> For example, consider the hillbilly characters who
> were popular in the World Wrestling Federation performances I watched
> as a pre-teen in the 1980s. The main guy was Hillbilly Jim, and there
> was an enormous fellow called Uncle Elmer and a short-lived third
> partner called Cousin Junior.
Oh, and there was also a Cousin Luke for a while. I'm just tossing
this in for those of you who are making up the program.
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, NiCK wrote:
> >
> > > Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> > > Dad and Mom?
> >
> > Some -- a quite small number, I believe -- do, but it seems that most use
> > a special term (like, *but not limited to*, "Dad" and "Mom"). I believe
> > that for a child to call his parent by the parent's first name was at one
> > time associated, stereotypically, with old liberal culture (see, e.g., _To
> > Kill A Mockingbird_ where the father is addressed as "Atticus" by his
> > children [Scout and -- what was it, 'Rumer'?]; I can think of some
> > real-life cases like this).
>
> I agree, but divorces and second and third marriages are
> complicating things. A child will call his natural father
> "Dad", but may not want to call his step-father "Dad". I
> don't know that there's a distinct pattern, but use of the
> first name seems to be the usage with step-parents. Kids
> can have some odd family relationships today.
True, and, as I think Lars's posting suggests, "odd" may not even be an
appropriate word for it if most children today are growing up with such
relationships. The original poster's inquiry does sort of assume that a
traditional bourgeois heterosexual two-parent family, with no divorces,
remarriages, out-of-wedlock births, live-in paramours, etc., is
somehow standard, but then I suppose the culture does too.
Tony Cooper
>
> Harper Lee was the woman who wrote "To Kill a Mockingbird."
>
Probably an unacceptable name in Mr Fontana's eyes.
Richard Fontana
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > Harper Lee was the woman who wrote "To Kill a Mockingbird."
> >
>
> Probably an unacceptable name in Mr Fontana's eyes.
It's okay for a nom de plume, despite its sort of in-your-face
Americanism and, in particular, in-your-face Southernism. Her true full
name was Nelle Harper Lee. I don't know whether she went by "Harper" or by
"Nelle" (or some other name) in ordinary life. I don't especially like
the name "Nelle", but I don't find it unacceptable; there is solid
tradition behind it.
Apurbva Chandra Senray
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
These are my impressions --
Most Americans don't address their parents by their given names,
but some do, especially those who were involved in the 1960s
counterculture. "Mom" and "Dad" or the like are the usual.
Step-parents are more often addressed by their given names.
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Americans address their siblings by their given names. The only
time I've heard an American address a sibling as "Brother" or "Sister"
is in a costume dramas about Quakers.
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
Americans usually address their aunts and uncles with both the
title and the given name -- "Aunt Sally," "Uncle Fred." This seems to
be changing, though, and I hear more and more people addressing their
aunts and uncles by their given names only. However, only actual
relatives are addressed by the titles "aunt" and "uncle." Family
friends and acquaintances are usually not addressed by these titles,
except in "connected" families.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
This seems to be equally split to me. About half of Americans
address their in-laws by their given names and about half use the
titles.
> I believe it's okay to let parents to call their children-in-law by names.
I'm sure they'll be relieved to hear that.
Fabian
> Dad and Mom?
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
> parents to call their children-in-law by names.
My dad normally calls me by my brother's name. He's getting on a bit. My
dad that is, not my brother.
--
--
Fabian
Teach a man what to think, and he'll think as long as you watch him. Teach
a man how to think, and he'll think you're playing mind games.
David
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
> parents to call their children-in-law by names.
I know the question wasn't asked, but I will answer from UK as it may
interest the US contingent. In my experience, both as a child 30 - 45
years ago and as a parent of teenagers, middle class British children
call ALL adults whom they know personally by their Given Name, except
for their direct antecedents and persons in authority over them.
Thus we have Mum (Mom is entirely American), Dad, Grandad,
Grandma/Granny; small children use Mummy and Daddy but this dies out
somewhere before teenage, except in the upper classes where it seems to
linger on especially for girls. Teachers are given titles up to the
children leaving High School (18) but 16 - 18 year olds in separate 6th
Form Colleges tend to call their teachers by first names, as university
students have done for over 25 years.
All aunts, uncles, cousins, friends of their parents, parents of their
friends, scout leaders. etc., are addressed by their first names, at
least where I have lived over the past 20 years. Some communities
retain "auntie/aunt" as an affectionate title but not for the sake of
politeness.
I may use a title to differentiate, e.g. rather than "It's John on the
phone" I would say "It's Great Uncle John on the phone". But I, my wife
and my children address him as John. This means that we all know the
position of each relative even if we don't use these in addressing them.
--
David
The address is valid, but I will change it at to keep ahead of the
spammers.
David
> My dad normally calls me by my brother's name. He's getting on a bit. My
> dad that is, not my brother.
Ah, well, on that tack, my mother blurts out names until she hits on the right
one, and has done for many years. She often goes through her sisters' names
before getting mine out (I am not, and have never been, a girl)
Gary Williams
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
This is done in some families, but my experience says that the
practice is unusual.
There may still be places in the South where parents are addressed as
"Sir" and "Ma'am."
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Yes.
They sometimes get quite inventive with regard to the names they call
them, but if parents are listening they will address their siblings by
their given names.
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
I think the most common practice is to use both the title and the
name: Uncle Matt, Aunt Catherine.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
> parents to call their children-in-law by names.
Here, I think, the practice varies quite a lot. I managed for many,
many years to evade the issue by being certain to look at the in-law I
wanted to address as I spoke without any form of address at all. I
let my wife handle all the correspondence with them. My son-in-law
addresses me as "Dad" and my wife addresses my parents as "Dad" and
"Mom".
> Note: parents-in-law and children-in-law are my instant
> inventions. No copyright prohibition.
Good; they're fine inventions and I was worried about the licensing
fee. I don't recall seeing children-in-law before, but I think you
may be in for a dispute at the patent office over first use of
parents-in-law.
Gary Williams
R H Draney
>Do American people call their parents by names instead of
>Dad and Mom?
Some do, but they're in the minority...(throughout this post, I'm
reporting on my own extended family and the other people with whom up
I grew)....
>Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
>Brother and Sister?
Almost invariably....
>Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
>instead of Aunt and Uncle?
Usually both..."Uncle Mac", "Aunt Bonnie", and this applies both to
addressing them directly and to referring to them in the third
person....
An odd point here is that I have no strict-definition aunts or
uncles...in one of my first posts to aue, I asked for a suitable
plural of "only child" since both of my own parents are
siblingless...I do (or did) have a number of great-aunts and
great-uncles (siblings of my grandparents), who got the "Aunt X" and
"Uncle Y" designations...their children were "Cousin Z" and such,
except that some of those "cousins once removed" were old enough to
appear avuncular or auntlike; my brother insists on calling "Cousin
Alice" "Aunt Alice" to this day....
"Second" and higher-degree cousins are also described simply as
"cousin" (unless further precision is required), but are never
addressed or referenced as such....
>Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
>instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
>parents to call their children-in-law by names.
Parents-in-law seem to set the bar here...the child-in-law might begin
by referring his or her in-laws as "Mister Jones" or "Mother Smith",
which a less-starchy parent-in-law will immediately put down and say
"Oh, please call me Betty"...it's probably safest to wait until this
permission is given....
By given name seems to be the *only* reasonable way to refer to
children-in-law...(didn't Endora always call her son-in-law
"Derwood"?)...
When you get to grandparents (and beyond), people get cute with the
nicknames...my maternal grandparents were always "Grandpa" and
"Grandma" (spelled thus, but pronounced /'gr&mpO/ and /'gr&mO/; yes,
with the fershlugginer "caught" vowel)...their counterparts on the
paternal side were the same designations with given names added:
"Grandpa Wally" and "Grandma Mary"...my *great*-grandparents
(Grandma's parents, who lived across the street) were "Big Buster" and
"Granny"...my eldest great-aunt was "Granny Jo", probably by that same
"age equals generation" rule that turned some cousins into aunts....
Since both my parents have remarried, I've acquired a lot of
step-relatives...I have no trouble referring to my stepsister, and her
husband is my stepbrother-in-law; but I'm at a loss to come up with a
term to describe what *his* sister is....r
--
"God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I
cannot change, the Courage to change the things
I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference
...oh, and a pony!"
fruitbat
>
> My sister's children seem to use "Grandma" as the direct form of address
> and "Grandma" + first name when speaking to familial third parties. With
> their grandfathers, they call their paternal grandfather "Bampy" /b&mpi/,
> a baby-talk derivative of "grandpa" which I've encountered elsewhere, and
> they called my father "papa", which was based on my oldest niece's
> baby-talk rendition of "grandpa".
I addressed my grandparents as "granny", "grand-dad", "nana", and
"pop-pop". All my cousins used the same form of address for each
grandparent as my sister and I, so I have no idea how they started. Is
there some point at which grandparents must choose which baby-talk
version they prefer out of all the ones their various grandchildren
call them? Maybe it's based on the one the first grandchild uses... I
don't have kids yet, so I have no data from personal experience. How
does it usually work?
Andy Averill
"Joe Manfre" <man...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:Xns916F6832B...@130.133.1.4...
> I wrote:
>
> > For example, consider the hillbilly characters who
> > were popular in the World Wrestling Federation performances I watched
> > as a pre-teen in the 1980s. The main guy was Hillbilly Jim, and there
> > was an enormous fellow called Uncle Elmer and a short-lived third
> > partner called Cousin Junior.
>
> Oh, and there was also a Cousin Luke for a while. I'm just tossing
> this in for those of you who are making up the program.
That always suggests southern/Appalachian to me.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Andy Averill
> Dad and Mom?
Usually not, but it's not unheard of in progressive families. The children
might change to this form once they've grown up.
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Always, as far as I know. Brother John might be used in fundamentalist
religious congregations and the like.
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
We did in my family (New England WASP) but most people don't.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"?
This is always a difficult decision, but I suspect most couples use first
names for their in-laws these days.
Jerry Friedman
> Do American people call their parents by names instead of
> Dad and Mom?
We do in, I would say, a small minority of cases. I associate this
with the circa-1970 counterculture and parents who wanted a more
democratic relationship with their children, but it's not limited to
such people. Children who have step-parents very often call them by
their first names.
Incidentally, it's either "by name" or "by their names", but I don't
remember ever hearing "by names". Also, "Americans" seems more
natural to me here than "American people".
> Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> Brother and Sister?
Yes, in the large majority of cases. However, I used to call my
brother "Bro", which was common among boys and young men of my
generation (born 1961) and class (middle, suburban, white), and might
still call him that once in a while, but I've never called my sister
"Sis". One could write a page or two on the American uses of
"brother" and "sister" to people (or abbreviations of it) to whom one
is *not* related. Maybe an article or two, for all I know.
> Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> instead of Aunt and Uncle?
In my family it's "Aunt" plus first name, as in "Aunt Ruth", and the
same with "Uncle Gary". (Except when my nieces call me by my
brother's name to tease me.) Using "Aunt" or "Uncle" with last names
may still exist, but I think it's rare. I never call anybody plain
"Aunt" or "Uncle", but probably some people do. I might also use
their first names only. Peoples use first names more in this
situation as they become adults.
> Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
> instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
> parents to call their children-in-law by names.
Often. (We're talking about first names here, right?) There's no
standard. My brother-in-law calls my mother "Grandma", which is also
common (when the couple has children). I can't remember either of my
parents addressing their parents-in-law. People usually get called
what they ask to be called, but this case is an exception, as some
parents-in-law want to be called "Mom" or "Ma" or whatever, and some
children-in-law resist.
> Note: parents-in-law and children-in-law are my instant
> inventions. No copyright prohibition.
Just as well, since you're not the first.
--
Jerry Friedman
Richard Fontana
> NiCK <Ni...@online.com> wrote in message news:<7mfu0u8u76cm2hpso...@4ax.com>...
> > Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
> > Brother and Sister?
>
> Yes, in the large majority of cases. However, I used to call my
> brother "Bro", which was common among boys and young men of my
> generation (born 1961) and class (middle, suburban, white), and might
> still call him that once in a while, but I've never called my sister
> "Sis". One could write a page or two on the American uses of
> "brother" and "sister" to people (or abbreviations of it) to whom one
> is *not* related. Maybe an article or two, for all I know.
One thing I've noticed in American novels from the first half of the 20th
century is that in dialogue a lot of characters (especially those who are
'working-class' or speaking some sort of street vernacular) will use
"brother" as a term of address towards a similarly situated male
person. I've also noticed this to some degree in dialogue in pre-1950
American movies. People my age, born after the 1950s, tend to associate
that use of 'brother' with urban African-American speech, but it would
seem that there was a time in the US when a similar use of 'brother' was
more widespread. Cf. "oh brother!".
I think in old movie dialogue at least you can find a similar use of
"sister" as a term of address towards a similarly situated female person.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as "Grandma"
> or "Granny" or some special form used in that family. If only one
> grandmother is alive, the child will use only the word "Grandma,"
> without any name. Most likely, the child does not even know the
> name. If both are alive, a name is usually attached. In my
> opinion, it is more common to attach the surname--such as "Grandma
> Smith" and "Grandma Jones"--than the given name--such as "Grandma
> Mary" and "Grandma Martha."
I'm not sure I'd make any generalizations on grandparent naming. If I
had to guess, I would have said that using first name is more common
than last, but I know enough of each that I really have no idea which
is more common. Also, a lot of people have different "special forms
of address" for each and will drop the specifier. My wife, for
example, has a "Grandma" and a "Gram", while my son has a "Grandma
[Andee]" and a "Savta" (and a "Grandpa [Howard]" and a "Saba").
Susan's "Grandma" is his "Oma", but my grandfather is his "Grandpa
Harry".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten...
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |it sucked.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Joe Manfre
> One thing I've noticed in American novels from the first half of the
> 20th century is that in dialogue a lot of characters (especially
> those who are 'working-class' or speaking some sort of street
> vernacular) will use "brother" as a term of address towards a
> similarly situated male person. I've also noticed this to some
> degree in dialogue in pre-1950 American movies. People my age, born
> after the 1950s, tend to associate that use of 'brother' with urban
> African-American speech, but it would seem that there was a time in
> the US when a similar use of 'brother' was more widespread. Cf. "oh
> brother!".
And let's not forget that song about sparing a dime. (Dimes must have
been beaten up a lot back then.)
JM
--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is
the dismemberment plan." -- MegaHAL
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Fabian wrote:
>
> > My dad normally calls me by my brother's name. He's getting on a
> > bit. My dad that is, not my brother.
>
> Ah, well, on that tack, my mother blurts out names until she hits on
> the right one, and has done for many years. She often goes through
> her sisters' names before getting mine out (I am not, and have never
> been, a girl)
My mom once went through my brother, my sister, my father, and the cat
before she hit on mine.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
(650)857-7572 |humans.
| Yosemite Park Ranger
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Evan Kirshenbaum
> NiCK <Ni...@online.com> wrote in message
> news:<7mfu0u8u76cm2hpso...@4ax.com>...
> > Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> > instead of Aunt and Uncle?
>
> Americans usually address their aunts and uncles with both the
> title and the given name -- "Aunt Sally," "Uncle Fred." This seems
> to be changing, though, and I hear more and more people addressing
> their aunts and uncles by their given names only. However, only
> actual relatives are addressed by the titles "aunt" and "uncle."
> Family friends and acquaintances are usually not addressed by these
> titles, except in "connected" families.
This depends entirely on the family. When I (b. 1964, Chicago) was
growing up, I had an Uncle Irwin and Auntie Barbara, an Uncle Eddie
and Aunt Sue, and an Uncle Jerry and Aunt Fran, none of whom were
related to me, but were, rather, my parents' best friends. I had one
true uncle, who was Uncle Robbie (and who became "Rob", with no title
when I was probably about 18), and a whole slew of great aunts and
uncles all of whom were "Uncle" and "Aunt" <whoever>.
My son, Josh's "aunts" and "uncles" are all related, but they include
not only his true aunts and uncles, but also the "greats" and "great-
greats".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent"
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> When you get to grandparents (and beyond), people get cute with the
> nicknames...my maternal grandparents were always "Grandpa" and
> "Grandma" (spelled thus, but pronounced /'gr&mpO/ and /'gr&mO/; yes,
> with the fershlugginer "caught" vowel)...
Not for me. It's /@/ when followed by a name and /A/ (often reduced
to [@]) when alone. /O/ sounds "rustic" to my ear in these words.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When correctly viewed,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U | Everything is lewd.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |I could tell you things
| about Peter Pan,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and the Wizard of Oz--
(650)857-7572 | there's a dirty old man!
| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Joe Fineman
> Thus we have Mum (Mom is entirely American), Dad, Grandad,
> Grandma/Granny; small children use Mummy and Daddy but this dies out
> somewhere before teenage, except in the upper classes where it seems
> to linger on especially for girls.
Do any children still say Mater & Pater they way they do in old
stories? Governor?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: The church is near, but the road is icy; the tavern is far, :||
||: but I'll go carefully. :||
jan sand
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>My mom once went through my brother, my sister, my father, and the cat
>before she hit on mine.
>
>--
>Evan Kirshenbaum
>
Although my brother and I addressed our parents as Mom and Pop, my
wife and I were addressed by our kids by first name. (I am American,
she is Finnish) I always addressed my pets by first name unless I
couldn't discover what their names were. Certain pets remained
nameless, like a few seagulls I kept for a while, and about eighteen
hegdehogs that used to wander in and out of the house. I had a
muskrat named Emile because I had heard that that species was
ocasionally eaten, but I never ate mine. I have a rabbit that makes
no sounds except an occasional growl when she lunges at me in anger
but I address her as "Pussy" once in a while because I am used to
having a cat around the house. She doesn't seem to mind.
Jan Sand
Laura Spira
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:usnaoc...@hpl.hp.com...
> acse...@yahoo.com (Apurbva Chandra Senray) writes:
>
> > NiCK <Ni...@online.com> wrote in message
> > news:<7mfu0u8u76cm2hpso...@4ax.com>...
> > > Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
> > > instead of Aunt and Uncle?
> >
> > Americans usually address their aunts and uncles with both the
> > title and the given name -- "Aunt Sally," "Uncle Fred." This seems
> > to be changing, though, and I hear more and more people addressing
> > their aunts and uncles by their given names only. However, only
> > actual relatives are addressed by the titles "aunt" and "uncle."
> > Family friends and acquaintances are usually not addressed by these
> > titles, except in "connected" families.
>
> This depends entirely on the family. When I (b. 1964, Chicago) was
> growing up, I had an Uncle Irwin and Auntie Barbara, an Uncle Eddie
> and Aunt Sue, and an Uncle Jerry and Aunt Fran, none of whom were
> related to me, but were, rather, my parents' best friends. I had one
> true uncle, who was Uncle Robbie (and who became "Rob", with no title
> when I was probably about 18), and a whole slew of great aunts and
> uncles all of whom were "Uncle" and "Aunt" <whoever>.
>
> My son, Josh's "aunts" and "uncles" are all related, but they include
> not only his true aunts and uncles, but also the "greats" and "great-
> greats".
>
uncles who were friends of my parents and the children of my Chinese friends
always call me "auntie" but our children have always called our friends by
their first names. This caused some problems with one family whose children
announced that if our children could call *their* parents Pat and Hugh, they
thought that they should too. Pat and Hugh didn't mind this but we weren't
too happy when our children then decided that they would call us by our
first names as well.
When I got my PhD I made everyone call me Doctor and quite a few of our
childrens' friends thought this was so funny that they still do so.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Laura Spira
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C0F8497...@yahoo.com...
[..]
> My son-in-law calls me "Tony". At one time, early in my
> daughter's relationship with him, I was "Mr. Cooper".
> There's that awkward time in a new situation where no name
> at all is used for fear precedence will be set. It's
> usually up to the in-law or potential in-law to declare the
> term. I always called my in-laws "Mr. Cleary" and "Mrs.
> Cleary", though.
The awkward time has lasted for 30 years in my husband's case. He has
managed to avoid calling my mother anything. They have a deep mutual
affection and she sends him birthday cards signed "?"
Aaron Davies
> On 6 Dec 2001, Ross Klatte wrote:
>
> > >From: Richard Fontana rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu
> > >Date: 2001-12-06 08:28 Eastern Standard Time
> >
> > I agree with all of your post.
> >
> > In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as
> > "Grandma" or "Granny" or some special form used in that
> > family. If only one grandmother is alive, the child will use
> > only the word "Grandma," without any name.
>
>
> > Most likely,
> > the child does not even know the name. If both are alive,
> > a name is usually attached. In my opinion, it is more
> > common to attach the surname--such as "Grandma Smith"
> > and "Grandma Jones"--than the given name--such as
> > "Grandma Mary" and "Grandma Martha."
>
> As someone else noted, there's a great deal of variation in the US
> regarding how grandparents are addressed by grandchildren. When
> "grandma" and "grandpa" are used, I don't think the presence or absence of
> a following name in any one instance of use necessarily rests on whether
> or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are alive; it might also be based
> on whether or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are in the same
> place at the same time, or whether both are being discussed in the same
> conversation and there's likelihood of confusion.
My maternal grandfather died long before I was born, and my maternal
grandmother when I was only two, so I never addressed them personally. I
called my paternal grandfather "Grampy" and my paternal grandmother
"Grammy". My maternal step-great-grandmother (I think; she was my
maternal grandmother's stepmother) survived into my early teens; we
called her "Mee-maw", which I probably picked up from my mother.
On the rare occasions when I meet my aunts and uncles, all of who live
rather far away, I tend to try and address them by first name only until
someone reminds me to prepend a title.
--
Aaron Davies
aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com
sig coming Soon(tm)
Aaron Davies
> On 6 Dec 2001, Ross Klatte wrote:
>
> > In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as
> > "Grandma" or "Granny" or some special form used in that
> > family.
> [...]
>
> Another issue is how cousins (of the non-aunt, non-uncle sort) are
> addressed. Typically, ordinarily, this is by first name. But I've
> noticed that in my father's family certain cousins are spoken of (if not
> addressed personally) as "Cousin" + first name. I can't figure out why
> some cousins merit the "Cousin" title and others don't. One particular
> first cousin of my father's is commonly referred to as "Cousin John", for
> example. There's some jocularity in this, I think. But I've encountered
> this use of "Cousin" as an almost aunt/uncle-like title in old American
> literary materials, where it seems like it might once have been a
> non-uncommon bourgeois practice. I also noticed it recently on an episode
> of the television series _Judging Amy_: a cousin who had shown up
> unexpected was addressed by the surprised main character as "Cousin" +
> first name.
When I was younger, we would sometimes refer to various cousins of mine
as "Cousin X" (though not when actually addressing them). I think they
were all on my mom's side. OTOH, my dad has a relation of some sort (his
family tree is a horrible mess; his mother is the one who can ever keep
track of everyone) who he still refers to as "Cousin Harold".
Aaron Davies
If the people using term are really noticably working class (ie, the
trades), perhaps this originated in the labor movement. Most of the
older unions are called "brotherhoods" in their official names, and I
think it was common back then for union members to refer to each other
as "Brother X".
David
> Do any children still say Mater & Pater they way they do in old
> stories? Governor?
I'm not convinced this ever happened in real life. Pip pip, cheerio.
R H Draney
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) writes:
>
>> When you get to grandparents (and beyond), people get cute with the
>> nicknames...my maternal grandparents were always "Grandpa" and
>> "Grandma" (spelled thus, but pronounced /'gr&mpO/ and /'gr&mO/; yes,
>> with the fershlugginer "caught" vowel)...
>
>Not for me. It's /@/ when followed by a name and /A/ (often reduced
>to [@]) when alone. /O/ sounds "rustic" to my ear in these words.
May have something to do with the referents..."Grandpa" and "Grandma"
were originally from the Texas Panhandle..."Grandpa Wally" and
"Grandma Mary" from the almost-four-corners area of NE Kansas/SE
Nebraska/NW Missouri/SW Iowa (and something like 110% Irish descent
each, if that's a factor)....r
Graeme Thomas
<bass....@ntlworld.com> writes
>Ah, well, on that tack, my mother blurts out names until she hits on the right
>one, and has done for many years.
My grandmother used to do that. She always had an fixed order: for me,
she'd try my father's name, then my elder brother's, and then me. If
she was trying to find a female family member's name, then it was mother
and my sisters, in order.
When she got older, she started confusing the sexes: she would start
with my mother, then father, and then my siblings in order.
Just before she died she suddenly started getting the names correctly
straight away. It seemed odd to ge addressed as "Graeme", without the
intervening names first.
--
Graeme Thomas
Robert Lieblich
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > Donna Richoux wrote:
> > >
> > > Harper Lee was the woman who wrote "To Kill a Mockingbird."
> > >
> >
> > Probably an unacceptable name in Mr Fontana's eyes.
>
> It's okay for a nom de plume, despite its sort of in-your-face
> Americanism and, in particular, in-your-face Southernism. Her true full
> name was Nelle Harper Lee. I don't know whether she went by "Harper" or by
> "Nelle" (or some other name) in ordinary life. I don't especially like
> the name "Nelle", but I don't find it unacceptable; there is solid
> tradition behind it.
And then there was Lula Carson Smith, who married a Mr. McCullers.
I don't know what her friends called her.
Ronald Reagan's mother was named "Nelle."
jan sand
(Aaron Davies) wrote:
>If the people using term are really noticably working class (ie, the
>trades), perhaps this originated in the labor movement. Most of the
>older unions are called "brotherhoods" in their official names, and I
>think it was common back then for union members to refer to each other
>as "Brother X".
>--
>Aaron Davies
And in religious orders.
Jan Sand
Richard Fontana
> dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) writes:
>
> > When you get to grandparents (and beyond), people get cute with the
> > nicknames...my maternal grandparents were always "Grandpa" and
> > "Grandma" (spelled thus, but pronounced /'gr&mpO/ and /'gr&mO/; yes,
> > with the fershlugginer "caught" vowel)...
>
> Not for me. It's /@/ when followed by a name and /A/ (often reduced
> to [@]) when alone. /O/ sounds "rustic" to my ear in these words.
For me it's /A/ ('father' vowel) even when a name follows.
Richard Fontana
I think "Mom" is said in Canada too.
Richard Fontana
> Ronald Reagan's mother was named "Nelle."
I know. Dutch told me.
Charles Riggs
>Do American people call their parents by names instead of
>Dad and Mom?
>Do American people call their siblings by names instead of
>Brother and Sister?
>Do American people call their aunts and uncles by names
>instead of Aunt and Uncle?
>Do American people call their parents-in-law by names
>instead of "Dad" and "Mom"? I believe it's okay to let
>parents to call their children-in-law by names.
There are no set rules for this in America. I call my father by his
first name, but didn't until I grew up, and I still call my mother
"Mom", but most people don't address their parents by name. Siblings
are almost always addressed by their names, although my sister
sometimes calls me "Big Brother", jocularly, and that is not too
unusual. I could never bring myself to use the titles "Uncle" or
"Aunt" so mine were "Bill" and "E" respectively and for the other two
I never came up with suitable names. It didn't much matter for they
were in a faraway state.
When I was caught in situations where I had to talk with my in-laws, I
avoided any type of direct address. Our conversations were generally
of the "Pass the salt, please" variety, requiring no address. I still
can't think of what else I could have done.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
>Richard Fontana (rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
>> One thing I've noticed in American novels from the first half of the
>> 20th century is that in dialogue a lot of characters (especially
>> those who are 'working-class' or speaking some sort of street
>> vernacular) will use "brother" as a term of address towards a
>> similarly situated male person. I've also noticed this to some
>> degree in dialogue in pre-1950 American movies. People my age, born
>> after the 1950s, tend to associate that use of 'brother' with urban
>> African-American speech, but it would seem that there was a time in
>> the US when a similar use of 'brother' was more widespread. Cf. "oh
>> brother!".
>
>
>And let's not forget that song about sparing a dime. (Dimes must have
>been beaten up a lot back then.)
One or two amusing posts, at least, but what amazes me about AUE, with
all its intelligent correspondents, is how a question of this nature
will often get some 40 responses in one day, as this one did, but let
one of us post something of a mind-provoking nature, such as Donna's,
Malcolm's, or my comments on Shakespeare and Joyce the other day, and
there'll be two or three responses if there are any at all. Am I
expecting too much? I'm not sure I mean this as a criticism; perhaps
it's human nature to take the easy road.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>I have a rabbit that makes
>no sounds except an occasional growl when she lunges at me in anger
>but I address her as "Pussy" once in a while because I am used to
>having a cat around the house. She doesn't seem to mind.
Although I have occasionally dignified a dog or cat with a name, I
wouldn't do so with any other type of animal. Even with dogs and cats,
my standard address for all of them is either "dog" or "cat". They
don't seem to mind either.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
Apparently so. I found this citation in the OED:
1968 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 17 Feb. 46/8 (Advt.), A family kitchen
with mom in mind boasts a built-in range and oven.
The word also appears, even in the UK, in combinations, such as
"mom-bashing" and "mom-like", for example:
1958 Manch. Guardian 7 June 4/6 Three leading serious comedies are
studies in parent-hating or mom-bashing.
After reading the mom passage, it was unclear to me whether the US
name for a store owned and run by a couple is ever called a
"Mom-and-Pop" by the British.
Charles Riggs
R J Valentine
} klatt...@aol.commmm (Ross Klatte) writes:
}
}> In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as "Grandma"
}> or "Granny" or some special form used in that family. If only one
}> grandmother is alive, the child will use only the word "Grandma,"
}> without any name. Most likely, the child does not even know the
}> name. If both are alive, a name is usually attached. In my
}> opinion, it is more common to attach the surname--such as "Grandma
}> Smith" and "Grandma Jones"--than the given name--such as "Grandma
}> Mary" and "Grandma Martha."
}
} I'm not sure I'd make any generalizations on grandparent naming.
I'm sure I wouldn't.
} If I
} had to guess, I would have said that using first name is more common
} than last, but I know enough of each that I really have no idea which
} is more common. Also, a lot of people have different "special forms
} of address" for each and will drop the specifier. My wife, for
} example, has a "Grandma" and a "Gram", while my son has a "Grandma
} [Andee]" and a "Savta" (and a "Grandpa [Howard]" and a "Saba").
} Susan's "Grandma" is his "Oma", but my grandfather is his "Grandpa
} Harry".
In my family it was "Grandma" and "Grandpa" directly and with last names
when referring to them. Their respective second spouses were "Uncle" and
"Aunt" with first names. Close family friends a generation up were also
Aunts and Uncles with first name. I was in an awkward position because
both of my parents went to teachers' college with half the teachers in
town, so I was rather more a disciplinary problem and less a scholar than
I was expected to be, if only to keep from getting beaten up by my fellow
students. My real aunts and uncles of course got the "Aunt" and "Uncle
with first name, including "great" ones. My Uncle Fred was called "Uncle
Fred" by just about everyone, if only in jest (I have a cassette tape of
Barry Goldwater calling him Uncle Fred when Uncle Fred was too sick to get
to a meeting once).
My wife's family was a little less regulated, and aunts and uncles
generally went by their first names only, and my wife's grandfather became
P.J. (although he went by "Pat" elsewhere) when my father-in-law-to-be
outgrew "Pa", so he was "P.J." to everyone in the family from then on.
In my son-in-law's family, all the grandparents and great-grandparents
have their own forms of the title, so I've staked out "Opa", which was
going unused, and the grandmother I'm not married to uses her initials.
My kids have always used just first names for aunts and uncles, but
"Aunt" or "Uncle" with first names for great ones. I have a niece and
nephew who were apparently coached to use "Uncle" with "R.J.", which is
enough to make even me barf. And this is a family who have only heard
the initial form through the grapevine, my first name being the same as my
father's.
My parents in law always signed their first names to cards and letters, so
that's what I use when I write them, but I rarely found the need to call
them anything when I was talking directly to them.
When making genealogical contacts with confirmed distant cousins, I tend
to call them either just plain "Cousin" or "Cousin" with a first name,
which seems to get a better response than a more formal approach. After a
while the "Cousin" seems to get lost.
Significantly senior or older cousins tend to be called "Aunt" or "Uncle",
regardless of what genealogical pedants would have. When a cousin of mine
in western Connecticut was showing my daughter our common ancestral burial
grounds there and the car broke down and a police officer stopped to help,
he introduced my daughter to the police officer as his niece, though she's
actually a second cousin twice removed. (He's younger than his seniority
might suggest, and we go by first names, he and I.) I think the police
officer gave them a ride into town and everything turned out well.
All my older and senior cousins in the Detroit area I call by first name
(they called my grandfather, who moved from Detroit to Syracuse) "Uncle
Charlie").
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Mike Oliver
> Although I have occasionally dignified a dog or cat with a name, I
> wouldn't do so with any other type of animal. Even with dogs and cats,
> my standard address for all of them is either "dog" or "cat". They
> don't seem to mind either.
The cats are just being polite. The dogs are too servile to notice.
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> After reading the mom passage, it was unclear to me whether the US
> name for a store owned and run by a couple is ever called a
> "Mom-and-Pop" by the British.
Wouldn't we need to know that they were parents, though?
Matti
jan sand
wrote:
Although I am fond of all animals including dogs and cats, I have been
impressed with the non-servility of the rabbit. Belieing its species
reputation, it has a rather dominating personality and she tolerates
me and demands personal services. If there is anyone servile in our
relationship, it is me.
Jan Sand
Old Timer
Matti Lamprhey wrote:
You're kidding, right? Their parental status has nothing to do with it.
Stephen Toogood
<la...@spira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>
>As a child in the UK in the 1950s I had many "complimentary" aunts and
>uncles who were friends of my parents and the children of my Chinese friends
>always call me "auntie" but our children have always called our friends by
>their first names. This caused some problems with one family whose children
>announced that if our children could call *their* parents Pat and Hugh, they
>thought that they should too. Pat and Hugh didn't mind this but we weren't
>too happy when our children then decided that they would call us by our
>first names as well.
Have you noticed how in some families this leads to all sorts of angst,
while others just take it in their stride? For myself, I'm quite happy
with whatever anyone wants to call me. As long as it's not Steve.
>
>When I got my PhD I made everyone call me Doctor and quite a few of our
>childrens' friends thought this was so funny that they still do so.
>
They don't preface it with 'what's up?' do they?
--
Stephen Toogood
Cad
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Grandmother terms like "nana", "nanny",
>"nonna" etc. are common in some families, communities and places, for
>example.
So nanny isn't used only for a household maid who also takes
care of babies?
Tony Cooper
A Nanny is a person that looks after children. You'd be
hard pressed to find one that will also act as a maid. Most
agencies that provide Nannies use a contract that prohibits
general maid work. Certain household tasks are acceptable,
but there is a line. If you want a maid and Nanny
combination, hire an illegal.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots and Tittles
Matti Lamprhey
Thanks for offering me a way out of my embarrassment, Old Timer, but I
really can't claim to have been joking there. Please explain why parental
status has nothing to do with the titles "Mom" and "Pop" in American usage.
Matti
Tony Cooper
A Mom-and-Pop store is one that is owned and run by a
couple. Typically, the small store that supports one
family and cannot hire outside help. The term has to do
with a couple - presumably married - running a store by
themselves and not to with whether or not they have
offspring. Just to complicate it, if they do have child, and
the child helps out in the store it is still a Mom-and-Pop
store.
In one neighborhood I lived in, there was a place we called
"the corner store". It was not on the corner. It was still
a corner store by the nature of it. It could have been a
Mom-and-Pop corner store.
Jerry Friedman
> On 6 Dec 2001, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > NiCK <Ni...@online.com> wrote in message news:<7mfu0u8u76cm2hpso...@4ax.com>...
>
> > > Brother and Sister?
> >
> > brother "Bro", which was common among boys and young men of my
> > generation (born 1961) and class (middle, suburban, white), and might
> > still call him that once in a while, but I've never called my sister
> > "Sis". One could write a page or two on the American uses of
> > "brother" and "sister" to people (or abbreviations of it) to whom one
> > is *not* related. Maybe an article or two, for all I know.
>
> century is that in dialogue a lot of characters (especially those who are
> 'working-class' or speaking some sort of street vernacular) will use
> "brother" as a term of address towards a similarly situated male
> person. I've also noticed this to some degree in dialogue in pre-1950
> American movies. People my age, born after the 1950s, tend to associate
> that use of 'brother' with urban African-American speech, but it would
> seem that there was a time in the US when a similar use of 'brother' was
> more widespread. Cf. "oh brother!".
Also still common among Hispanics. When I moved to this town in 1994,
I thought "bro" was pretty much the standard form of address between
males, whether friends or strangers. Now "dude" (among the young) and
"man" are probably as common. One of my students calls me "bro" all
the time, though.
I have a theory that this and some other northern New Mexico Hispanic
customs were picked up from blacks in the military in the Vietnam era.
But I also have a theory that winter is caused by CFCs in the
atmosphere, so don't trust me too far.
> I think in old movie dialogue at least you can find a similar use of
> "sister" as a term of address towards a similarly situated female person.
There's one from Marlon Brando, in a movie I've seen a clip of and
should probably know the title of. The waitress answers, "I ain't
your sister."
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> (The rules for when to use "Aunt" and when to use "Auntie" seem to
> be quite complex, and are based, I believe, on the nature of the first
> name that follows the title.)
...
The rules in my family were quite simple. I never heard anyone
addressed as "Auntie".
--
Jerry Friedman
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> >
> > [...] Please explain why parental status has nothing to do with
> > the titles "Mom" and "Pop" in American usage.
>
> A Mom-and-Pop store is one that is owned and run by a
> couple. Typically, the small store that supports one
> family and cannot hire outside help. The term has to do
> with a couple - presumably married - running a store by
> themselves and not to with whether or not they have
> offspring. Just to complicate it, if they do have child, and
> the child helps out in the store it is still a Mom-and-Pop
> store.
I would have written "simplify" there instead of "complicate". Pondian?
Matti
PS Yes I was and am enjoying a wind-up in this thread, but I can seriously
assure you that no Brit would consider the phrase "Dad and Mum" to have no
implication of parenthood.
David
> 1958 Manch. Guardian 7 June 4/6 Three leading serious comedies are
> studies in parent-hating or mom-bashing.
Must have been written by a visiting American. Or the primitive 1958
spell checker was not working properly.
> After reading the mom passage, it was unclear to me whether the US
> name for a store owned and run by a couple is ever called a
> "Mom-and-Pop" by the British.
Never heard this. Actually, in all my time in the US I've never heard
this there either.
N.Mitchum
----
> > A Mom-and-Pop store is one that is owned and run by a
>
> I can seriously
> assure you that no Brit would consider the phrase "Dad and Mum" to have no
> implication of parenthood.
But "mom-and-pop" as a phrase has a special meaning in America and
may not even refer to a married couple. A mom-and-pop store is a
small shop making a marginal profit (supposedly) and run by no
more than three people. In fact you can say just "mom-and-pop"
(They ran a mom-and-pop down on Main Street), and most Americans
will take "store" as given.
(Seriously -- do many British people actually refer to themselves
as "Brits"? Or is it merely a piece of Usenet shorthand?)
----NM
Richard Fontana
Old Timer and Tony are making this more complicated than it has to
be. The term "Mom and Pop" store arose because such stores were typically
run by one family, typically a couple, who *typically* might have some
children who *typically* might have helped out with running the store. So
parental status is relevant, even though obviously in some cases you can
have a described 'Mom and Pop' store where, say, the owners are a
childless couple.
Richard Fontana
As Coop sort of sugests, a 'nanny' is typically not regarded as a type of
'maid' (though the functions might be combined). But, yes, there are some
people who call their grandmothers "Nanny". I've heard this; I don't know
how common it is.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Have you noticed how in some families this leads to all sorts of
> angst, while others just take it in their stride? For myself, I'm
> quite happy with whatever anyone wants to call me. As long as it's
> not Steve.
"Stevie"'s okay, though, right?
There are two people who call my son "Joshy". One's my great-
grandfather, who gets some slack, and the other's a friend who can't
seem to break herself of the habit. My wife tells me that she can
only recall two people in her life, one of them a teacher, who got
away with calling her "Susie" consistently. (She's "Susan",
occasionally "Sue", but most often "Sus"--or "Suz" or "Sooz". It's
one of those name's that's easy to say but doesn't look right any way
you write it.)
Josh is three, and his friends call us different things, following the
standards of their own parents. Most of them call us Evan and Susan,
but his best friend, Josh, calls us "Mr. Kirshenbaum" and
"Mrs. Slater", which, surprisingly, doesn't seem to cause him any
confusion.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |you discover the exact date and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took
|place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn
(650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
| Kevin Wald
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
David
> There are two people who call my son "Joshy". One's my great-
> grandfather, who gets some slack, and the other's a friend who can't
> seem to break herself of the habit. My wife tells me that she can
> only recall two people in her life, one of them a teacher, who got
> away with calling her "Susie" consistently. (She's "Susan",
> occasionally "Sue", but most often "Sus"--or "Suz" or "Sooz". It's
> one of those name's that's easy to say but doesn't look right any way
> you write it.)
We chose our children's names - Ruth and Mark - partially because they are
impossible to shorten. I was only ever called "David" until I went to America
as a teenager, where I learned that I could not resist "Dave" no matter how hard
I tried.
Robert Lieblich
Loved your novel about him.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> > There are two people who call my son "Joshy". One's my great-
> > grandfather, who gets some slack, and the other's a friend who
> > can't seem to break herself of the habit. My wife tells me that
> > she can only recall two people in her life, one of them a teacher,
> > who got away with calling her "Susie" consistently. (She's
> > "Susan", occasionally "Sue", but most often "Sus"--or "Suz" or
> > "Sooz". It's one of those name's that's easy to say but doesn't
> > look right any way you write it.)
>
> We chose our children's names - Ruth and Mark - partially because
> they are impossible to shorten.
My parents chose each of their children's names (Evan, Lyle, and Amy)
with the same goal. It wasn't until I was in school and she heard my
friends address me as "Ev"[1] that they realised that they had failed.
/eIm/ and, to a lesser extent /lAI/ followed. I wish you better luck.
I've seen enough "Ruthie"s and "Marky"s, though, to expect that you
may be in for much of the same.
[1] Friends still address me and refer to me as "Ev", but, as with my
wife's "Sus", it's never attached to the last name.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It does me no injury for my neighbor
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |to say there are twenty gods, or no
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |God.
| Thomas Jefferson
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Richard Fontana
> Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > 1958 Manch. Guardian 7 June 4/6 Three leading serious comedies are
> > studies in parent-hating or mom-bashing.
>
> Must have been written by a visiting American. Or the primitive 1958
> spell checker was not working properly.
>
> > After reading the mom passage, it was unclear to me whether the US
> > name for a store owned and run by a couple is ever called a
> > "Mom-and-Pop" by the British.
>
> Never heard this. Actually, in all my time in the US I've never heard
> this there either.
Perhaps related to the fact that "mom-and-pop" establishments have been
disappearing, as they cannot compete on price with supermarkets and the
supermarket equivalent of general stores and hardware stores.
Aaron Davies
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 6 Dec 2001, Ross Klatte wrote:
> >
> > > >From: Richard Fontana rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu
> > > >Date: 2001-12-06 08:28 Eastern Standard Time
> > >
> > > I agree with all of your post.
> > >
> > > In addition, a grandmother is almost always addressed as
> > > "Grandma" or "Granny" or some special form used in that
> > > family. If only one grandmother is alive, the child will use
> > > only the word "Grandma," without any name.
> >
> >
> > > Most likely,
> > > the child does not even know the name. If both are alive,
> > > a name is usually attached. In my opinion, it is more
> > > common to attach the surname--such as "Grandma Smith"
> > > and "Grandma Jones"--than the given name--such as
> > > "Grandma Mary" and "Grandma Martha."
> >
> > As someone else noted, there's a great deal of variation in the US
> > regarding how grandparents are addressed by grandchildren. When
> > "grandma" and "grandpa" are used, I don't think the presence or absence of
> > a following name in any one instance of use necessarily rests on whether
> > or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are alive; it might also be based
> > on whether or not both grandmothers or grandfathers are in the same
> > place at the same time, or whether both are being discussed in the same
> > conversation and there's likelihood of confusion.
>
> My maternal grandfather died long before I was born, and my maternal
> grandmother when I was only two, so I never addressed them personally. I
> called my paternal grandfather "Grampy" and my paternal grandmother
> "Grammy". My maternal step-great-grandmother (I think; she was my
> maternal grandmother's stepmother) survived into my early teens; we
> called her "Mee-maw", which I probably picked up from my mother.
>
> On the rare occasions when I meet my aunts and uncles, all of who live
> rather far away, I tend to try and address them by first name only until
> someone reminds me to prepend a title.
One other thing to add--most of my paternal cousins, who presumably have
living maternal grandmothers, refer to my grandmother as "Grandma Pat"
(her name is Patricia).
--
Aaron Davies
aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com
sig coming Soon(tm)
Aaron Davies
> This all boils down to Americans using the form of family address that their
> parents used which "is" typically European based. I am qualifying "is" because
> there is a growing Latin American and Asian influence in American culture, and
> I don't know how this is altering family address forms.
I rather hope not much in the latter case, as Asian family address
involves dozens of words we just don't have.
David
> > We chose our children's names - Ruth and Mark - partially because
> > they are impossible to shorten.
>
> My parents chose each of their children's names (Evan, Lyle, and Amy)
> with the same goal. It wasn't until I was in school and she heard my
> friends address me as "Ev"[1] that they realised that they had failed.
> /eIm/ and, to a lesser extent /lAI/ followed. I wish you better luck.
> I've seen enough "Ruthie"s and "Marky"s, though, to expect that you
> may be in for much of the same.
So far so good - they're 14 and 16 now. "Evan" plainly suffers in this regard
from having two syllables.
Laura F Spira
>
> In article <9uoquc$8a$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Laura Spira
> <la...@spira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
> >
> >As a child in the UK in the 1950s I had many "complimentary" aunts and
> >uncles who were friends of my parents and the children of my Chinese friends
> >always call me "auntie" but our children have always called our friends by
> >their first names. This caused some problems with one family whose children
> >announced that if our children could call *their* parents Pat and Hugh, they
> >thought that they should too. Pat and Hugh didn't mind this but we weren't
> >too happy when our children then decided that they would call us by our
> >first names as well.
>
> Have you noticed how in some families this leads to all sorts of angst,
> while others just take it in their stride? For myself, I'm quite happy
> with whatever anyone wants to call me. As long as it's not Steve.
It's not so much the name but the person who is doing the calling that
matters to me. I found it difficult to let the children call me by my
first name because they are the only two people in the whole world who
can call me Mum and that seems important. I get called Lorna, Gloria,
Lara, Laurie (do they mean Lorry?) Lauren, and even Lola - if the
mistake is made by someone I don't warm to, it is far more bothersome.
> >
> >When I got my PhD I made everyone call me Doctor and quite a few of our
> >childrens' friends thought this was so funny that they still do so.
> >
> They don't preface it with 'what's up?' do they?
>
>
Certainly not. It's Doctor S, or occasionally, among the very brave,
Doctor Laura, but *never* Doc.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Cad
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>For myself, I'm quite happy
>with whatever anyone wants to call me. As long as it's not Steve.
Is there a reason for that? Is "Steve" totally irrelevant
to "Stephen"?
Joe Manfre
> Stephen Toogood <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Have you noticed how in some families this leads to all sorts of
>> angst, while others just take it in their stride? For myself, I'm
>> quite happy with whatever anyone wants to call me. As long as it's
>> not Steve.
>
> "Stevie"'s okay, though, right?
>
> There are two people who call my son "Joshy". One's my great-
> grandfather, who gets some slack, and the other's a friend who can't
> seem to break herself of the habit.
Many of the women in my family still call me "Joey". Also, Kurt
Stocklmeir refers to the sci.physics FAQ as the "faqy", but that's
meant to be disparaging, because there are many curses associated with
the faqy, which (if I understand correctly) has become a tool of the
devil and bad angels.
JM
--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is
the dismemberment plan." -- MegaHAL
Tony Cooper
This is a less complicated explanation?
Tony Cooper
>
> We chose our children's names - Ruth and Mark - partially because they are
> impossible to shorten. I was only ever called "David" until I went to America
> as a teenager, where I learned that I could not resist "Dave" no matter how hard
> I tried.
But they will be "Ruthie" and "Markie" to some.
Richard Fontana
We've already established that TC "complicate" = UK "simplify". I'm
speaking TCE!
R H Draney
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>David wrote:
>>
>> We chose our children's names - Ruth and Mark - partially because they are
>> impossible to shorten. I was only ever called "David" until I went to America
>> as a teenager, where I learned that I could not resist "Dave" no matter how hard
>> I tried.
>
>But they will be "Ruthie" and "Markie" to some.
A pair of my great-grandparents thought they had managed to accomplish
this with their sons...thus Forrest, Lacy, Allan, Ralph (my
grandfather), and Scott...all but Forrest ended up using either middle
names (Grandpa was "Jim") or nicknames (one was known as
"Shep")...with their sixth son (and ninth child overall), Raymond,
they appear to have surrendered to the inevitable....
I've always resisted making much use of my middle name, monosyllabic
as it is....r
--
"Aaaahhhh!!!! Sugarplums!!!! Get 'em offa me!!!! AAAAAHHHH!!!!"
Tony Cooper
>
>
> Perhaps related to the fact that "mom-and-pop" establishments have been
> disappearing, as they cannot compete on price with supermarkets and the
> supermarket equivalent of general stores and hardware stores.
Go towards the inner-city. The mom-and-pops thrive there in
the guise of convenience stores. In this city, almost
always owned by either Indians or Pakistanis. Usually,
though, it's more than mom and pop with several family
members involved. These people put in incredible hours even
spreading out the load among the family.
7/11, Cumberland Farms, and other other chains stake out the
better neighborhoods. The immigrant families set up shop in
the more dangerous neighborhoods. I don't envy them.
We also have the mom and pop type stores in the tourist
areas selling souvenir type goods. Again, family
operations. Again, Indians, Pakistanis, Vietnamese,
Laotians, Cambodians and Iranians. I guess we need to
substitute different words for mom and pop.
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> >
> > Perhaps related to the fact that "mom-and-pop" establishments have been
> > disappearing, as they cannot compete on price with supermarkets and the
> > supermarket equivalent of general stores and hardware stores.
>
> Go towards the inner-city. The mom-and-pops thrive there in
> the guise of convenience stores.
We might need to define "convenience store" carefully (in case we
haven't). To me a convenience store refers to those places I associate
particularly with suburban-rural America, typified by macabre chains like
7/11 and Cumberland Farms, or the "Qwik-E-Mart" on _The Simpsons_, or
those places attached to gas stations (= UK+ "petrol
estate"?). Functionally equivalent stores exist in the inner cities I've
been in but I wouldn't call them convenience stores (unless, perhaps, they
were of those specific subtypes I've listed). Then again I'm mainly
familiar with New York. I didn't learn the term 'convenience store' at
all until I went to college and heard New England and New Jersey types
using the term.
There's a New England term "package store" (used in CT and MA, anyway),
which I believe is also in the Boston dialect called "a packie", and I'm
not sure to what extent it differs from a convenience store, as it's been
a long while since I've patronized any such places. I think the focus of
a package store is the sale of inexpensive alcoholic beverages, and that
might be a principal revenue source for the convenience store proper
anyway. Whatever. All those places are bad postwar developments, or
BPDs. Now your friendly neighborhood little grocery store, or deli, or
milk store, or bodega, those are legitimate.
Tony Cooper
>
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote...
> > Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> > >
> > > [...] Please explain why parental status has nothing to do with
> > > the titles "Mom" and "Pop" in American usage.
> >
> > A Mom-and-Pop store is one that is owned and run by a
> > couple. Typically, the small store that supports one
> > family and cannot hire outside help. The term has to do
> > with a couple - presumably married - running a store by
> > themselves and not to with whether or not they have
> > offspring. Just to complicate it, if they do have child, and
> > the child helps out in the store it is still a Mom-and-Pop
> > store.
>
> I would have written "simplify" there instead of "complicate". Pondian?
Hmmmm. No, I meant "complicate" since I had said one thing
(running a store by themselves without help) and then added
an additional factor (a child helping out) without changing
the meaning. To me, it made it more complicated to
understand. But, then, I had great faith in your ability to
see through the murk of my explanation and divine the
meaning.
Tony Cooper
>
> We might need to define "convenience store" carefully (in case we
> haven't). To me a convenience store refers to those places I associate
> particularly with suburban-rural America, typified by macabre chains like
> 7/11 and Cumberland Farms, or the "Qwik-E-Mart" on _The Simpsons_, or
> those places attached to gas stations (= UK+ "petrol
> estate"?). Functionally equivalent stores exist in the inner cities I've
> been in but I wouldn't call them convenience stores (unless, perhaps, they
> were of those specific subtypes I've listed).
A "convenience store" in my parlance is all of the above.
Sometimes just a store, sometimes a store with gas pumps out
front, and sometimes a chain like 7/11. (Some 7/11s here
have gas pumps and some don't) The only difference with the
inner-city store is that is not likely to be a chain store,
it has mesh guards over the windows, and it always - always!
- smells badly of Lysol, cooked foods, and unidentified
strange odours. Frequently, the odours are of some cooking
in the back room of some native dish. The inner-city stores
also sell strange things like oriental herbal remedies,
pomades, shaving powder, and bits of meat from parts of
animals that I accept - only unknowingly - in hot dogs...and
then ground up very finely. They also stock different
brands of beer like Colt 45 by the quart.
Alan Jones
"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:9uq55l$a5jmq$2...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
> "Charles Riggs" <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote...
> > [...]
> > After reading the mom passage, it was unclear to me whether the US
> > name for a store owned and run by a couple is ever called a
> > "Mom-and-Pop" by the British.
>
> Wouldn't we need to know that they were parents, though?
Since no one has answered Charles's question, I'd like to say that we in UK
don't call such a store (or 'shop' as we tend to say) a "Mom-and-Pop".
The shops exist, of course. The best I've known, in the West London suburb
where I used to live, was owned by a Indian couple who had fled East Africa.
They were both professional people, graduates, but couldn't at that time
find appropriate employment. The shop was excellent, with the very best
brands of everything - a sort of miniature Fortnums. "Mom" even taught me
how to grow my own ginger so that I wouldn't need to buy any again. They
sent their son to the independent school where I taught, and he did very
well indeed. Now that I've moved to the country I don't know whether they
are still at the shop.
"Pop" is not generally used here as an affectionate name for one's father:
"Dad" (or "Da" in some regions) is the universal word once one has grown out
of "Daddy". A few families use first names, especially where teenagers are
addressing a step-parent. Mothers are called "Mum" in writing, but in the
south it's said almost like "Mom" - "Mummy" is used by younger children, and
some retain that form after they stop saying "Daddy". In the 3rd person,
I've known teenage boys refer to their mother as "Mummy", though they said
"my father", not "my dad". That would be rare, though, and characteristic of
upper-middle class manners. Boys from such a background are nowadays much
less self-conscious about their families, and seniors seem quite happy to
kiss mother or even father goodbye when they are delivered to school by car.
Years ago, one wanted parents to stay in the background, and any public
display of affection was an embarrassment. Not so now, and I think I like
the change. Of course, social kissing has become widespread lately, I assume
on the Continental model, and doesn't always indicate affection.
Alan Jones
Charles Riggs
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>There's a New England term "package store" (used in CT and MA, anyway),
>which I believe is also in the Boston dialect called "a packie", and I'm
>not sure to what extent it differs from a convenience store, as it's been
>a long while since I've patronized any such places. I think the focus of
>a package store is the sale of inexpensive alcoholic beverages, and that
>might be a principal revenue source for the convenience store proper
>anyway. Whatever.
From what I remember of Maine, you're about right. A package store
sells beer and wine in cans or bottles; I'd dispute your use of the
word "beverage". Beverages are served in a glass, cup, or mug, ready
to be drunk. Do I have it right?
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>----
>> > A Mom-and-Pop store is one that is owned and run by a
>> > couple. [...]
>>
>> I can seriously
>> assure you that no Brit would consider the phrase "Dad and Mum" to have no
>> implication of parenthood.
>>....
>
>But "mom-and-pop" as a phrase has a special meaning in America and
>may not even refer to a married couple. A mom-and-pop store is a
>small shop making a marginal profit (supposedly) and run by no
>more than three people. In fact you can say just "mom-and-pop"
>(They ran a mom-and-pop down on Main Street), and most Americans
>will take "store" as given.
I think the most important distinction of a Mom-and-Pop restaurant or
store is that they are privately owned and not part of a franchise, as
are so many establishments in America today.
Charles Riggs
David
> We might need to define "convenience store" carefully (in case we
> haven't). To me a convenience store refers to those places I associate
> particularly with suburban-rural America, typified by macabre chains like
> 7/11 and Cumberland Farms, or the "Qwik-E-Mart" on _The Simpsons_, or
> those places attached to gas stations (= UK+ "petrol estate"?)
I'm inclined to say "petrol station" or "filling station", but on reflection I
think we avoid the noun and instead "go to buy petrol". The shops attached to
filling stations vary enormously - some sell only cigarettes and sweets and
others are as large as a Greek supermarket.
"Supermarket" in the UK is reserved for large shops of the Wall-Mart or Safeway
variety. We don't use the short term "market" for a shop of any sort - it
refers to an open or covered area with a large number of "stalls", usually
rented by small traders. It can be fixed in place, or take over a town centre
on a couple of days each week during which the roads are closed to traffic.
They have the same thing in France.
Matti Lamprhey
I was teasing again. I'm not saying that "Mom and Pop" is an odd idiom for
a couple who run a store in Leftpondia, but what's odd is that Leftpondians
find it odd that we Rightpondians don't do the same.
Matti
Richard Fontana
I don't think so. For some purposes, at least, we speak of the sale of
"beverages" that are contained in closed cans or bottles.
Richard Fontana
> "Supermarket" in the UK is reserved for large shops of the Wall-Mart or Safeway
> variety.
I remember going to a Safeway in the UK and it looked like a supermarket
to me. As for Wall-Mart, I don't know if this is the same as the Wal-Mart
chain in the US, but the one Wal-Mart I'm familiar with is not a
"supermarket" according to my definition. I don't really know the proper
term for such places -- "huge suburban-rural stores that sell a variety of
cheap and often shlocky but sometimes useful merchandise and which are
full of scary-looking parents accompanied by screaming demonic
future-Freck-pupil children" is one possible term. I think someone here
once suggested the term "box store", but I don't like that nor do I hear
it used. A supermarket is by definition a large grocery store, which is
to say, its primary function is to sell grocery items (forms of legitimate
edible food, including perishable food) even though modern supermarkets
sell lots of non-grocery items too. The Wal-Mart I'm familiar with sells
junk food and snack food and things like soda. Large drugstores (= UK
'chemists') sell a similarly restricted subset of foods.
When I were living in Michigan some years ago there was a chain of
behemoth stores called "Meijer" which were similar to Wal-Marts except
that there was also a legitimate supermarket within it. So that's a
hybrid.
> We don't use the short term "market" for a shop of any sort - it
> refers to an open or covered area with a large number of "stalls", usually
> rented by small traders. It can be fixed in place, or take over a town centre
> on a couple of days each week during which the roads are closed to traffic.
> They have the same thing in France.
This use of 'market' has been reintroduced to the US with the
popularization of so-called 'farmer's markets' in some places. We also
have the term 'flea market' which I assume exists in the UK too. I don't
think the bare term 'market' is used to refer to a US store (= UK
'shop') either.
David
> > "Supermarket" in the UK is reserved for large shops of the Wall-Mart or Safeway
> > variety.
> I remember going to a Safeway in the UK and it looked like a supermarket
> to me.
Er, isn't that what I said?
> As for Wall-Mart, I don't know if this is the same as the Wal-Mart
> chain in the US, but the one Wal-Mart I'm familiar with is not a
> "supermarket" according to my definition.
I was using Safeway and Wall-Mart in their US contexts - there may now be Wall-Mart
stores in the UK since they bought one of our big supermarket chains, but I've never
seen one.
> I don't really know the proper
> term for such places -- "huge suburban-rural stores that sell a variety of
> cheap and often shlocky but sometimes useful merchandise and which are
> full of scary-looking parents accompanied by screaming demonic
> future-Freck-pupil children" is one possible term. I think someone here
> once suggested the term "box store", but I don't like that nor do I hear
> it used. A supermarket is by definition a large grocery store, which is
> to say, its primary function is to sell grocery items (forms of legitimate
> edible food, including perishable food) even though modern supermarkets
> sell lots of non-grocery items too. The Wal-Mart I'm familiar with sells
> junk food and snack food and things like soda. Large drugstores (= UK
> 'chemists') sell a similarly restricted subset of foods.
UK chemists don't sell food, except for the largest ones which are more like
department stores with a pharmacy attached - these may sell ready-to-eat items such
as sandwiches and chocolate but not provisions.
> When I were living in Michigan some years ago there was a chain of
> behemoth stores called "Meijer" which were similar to Wal-Marts except
> that there was also a legitimate supermarket within it. So that's a
> hybrid.
>
> > We don't use the short term "market" for a shop of any sort - it
> > refers to an open or covered area with a large number of "stalls", usually
> > rented by small traders. It can be fixed in place, or take over a town centre
> > on a couple of days each week during which the roads are closed to traffic.
> > They have the same thing in France.
>
> This use of 'market' has been reintroduced to the US with the
> popularization of so-called 'farmer's markets' in some places. We also
> have the term 'flea market' which I assume exists in the UK too.
Yes.
> I don't
> think the bare term 'market' is used to refer to a US store (= UK
> 'shop') either.
I'm sure I have market as a synonym for shop.
Matti Lamprhey
>
> I was using Safeway and Wall-Mart in their US contexts - there may now be
> Wall-Mart stores in the UK since they bought one of our big supermarket
> chains, but I've never seen one.
The UK chain they bought was ASDA (once Associated Dairies, I believe), and
they've rebranded one of the large out-of-town ASDAs near me as "WAL*MART".
I haven't been tempted to enter
it as yet, fortunately.
Matti
Sara Moffat Lorimer
A packie is the same thing in Massachusetts, but it's got nothing to do
with the price of the booze -- they're the only stores where one can buy
alcohol, no matter how cheap or expensive. A person who would "go on a
beer run" might also "do a packie."
--
SML
Queens, New York
Tony Cooper
>
> A package store
> sells beer and wine in cans or bottles; I'd dispute your use of the
> word "beverage". Beverages are served in a glass, cup, or mug, ready
> to be drunk. Do I have it right?
In many states that have an agency to control liquor sales,
the agency is called the "Alcoholic Beverage Commission".
Some states have only "ABC" stores run by the state that
sell alcoholic beverages. None of these store sell the
beverage in a decanted form.
Old Timer
Tony Cooper wrote:
> Charles Riggs wrote:
> >
> > A package store
> > sells beer and wine in cans or bottles; I'd dispute your use of the
> > word "beverage". Beverages are served in a glass, cup, or mug, ready
> > to be drunk. Do I have it right?
>
> In many states that have an agency to control liquor sales,
> the agency is called the "Alcoholic Beverage Commission".
> Some states have only "ABC" stores run by the state that
> sell alcoholic beverages. None of these store sell the
> beverage in a decanted form.
>
And the ABC store is also called a 'package store.' (Wonder if they used
to 'package' the merchandise so no one could guess where you had been
shopping?)