Lexical onomatopoeia?

[Traddict]

By definition, an onomatopoeia is "phonic", i.e. it imitates natural sounds,
which give it its meaning.

How about words created after other words, the sound of which they adopt
without any logic in their shape? I'm thinking of words like "tawdry" coined
after "Saint Audrey" (where the "Sain" part is obliterated) or "legerdemain"
apparently coined after the French phrase "l�ger de main"? I've always
wondered whether there is a proper term for that kind of "lexical
onomatopoeia".

[Unknown]

Wouldn't "legerdemain" be considered a conflated form of "l�ger de
main", rather than a word that was formed onomatopoetically? If not,
wouldn't all conflated words have to be considered onomatopoetic
derivatives of other words?

[Traddict]

"Thomas Ledbetter" a �crit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
lfieo9h2so1j5enuo...@4ax.com...

"Legerdemain" is not a conflation proper, as it is derived from one and the
same phrase. It is however coined in such an irrational way, pronounced in
such an odd way relative to its French cognate and has a meaning so remote
from this, that I saw it fit to call it a lexical onomatopoeia, in the lack
of some seemingly more accurate word.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'm not sure I understand your point, in particular "without any
logic". "Tawdry" is just a natural shortening of St Audrey, and the
logic, as I understand it, is that rubbishy stuff was sold on her day
(rather than every day, as now). "Legerdemain" isn't even that: it's
just an English adoption of a French phrase.

The other day I drove through Saint Chinian, an illustration that
French does the same thing, as its name is a misanalysis of the Occitan
name Sanch Inian.


--
athel

[Traddict]

"Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> a �crit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : bup5cg...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2014-05-29 12:45:57 +0000, Traddict said:
>
>> By definition, an onomatopoeia is "phonic", i.e. it imitates natural
>> sounds, which give it its meaning.
>>
>> How about words created after other words, the sound of which they adopt
>> without any logic in their shape? I'm thinking of words like "tawdry"
>> coined after "Saint Audrey" (where the "Sain" part is obliterated) or
>> "legerdemain" apparently coined after the French phrase "l�ger de main"?
>> I've always wondered whether there is a proper term for that kind of
>> "lexical onomatopoeia".
>
> I'm not sure I understand your point, in particular "without any logic".

My point is that derivatives of words follow a certain logic. If you take
the word "genocide" for example, it's derived from latin "genus" +
"occidere", the roots of both of which have been picked up to form a new
word whose meaning in effect reflects the combined meanings of "genus" +
"occidere". Now with "tawdry", what you have is a very approximate
phonetical rendition of "Saint Audrey" (which in itself doesn't mean
anything) so that "tawdry" has only come to adopt its current meaning
through a series of far-fetched associations. I know this is not the
definition of "onomatopeia", but then again I find the relationship between
the original phrase and it's "derivative" so loose that I can't think of a
better term than "onomatopeia" to refer to it. The basic idea is that it's a
bit as though a word were taken as a sheer sound and carried over to other
words/phrases irrespective of any syntactical or even semantical
considerations. (I must admit the idea is hard to express and may seem
unclear, though).

Same goes for "legerdemain", with slight nuances.

My gut feeling is that this is a distinct linguistic process and there must
be some specific term for it (that was the object this topic) - but then I
may very well be wrong.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:40:59 AM UTC-4, Traddict wrote:

> "Legerdemain" is not a conflation proper, as it is derived from one and the
> same phrase. It is however coined in such an irrational way, pronounced in
> such an odd way relative to its French cognate and has a meaning so remote
> from this, that I saw it fit to call it a lexical onomatopoeia, in the lack
> of some seemingly more accurate word.

Its English pronunciation is exactly as it's spelled. Brits do that.
Apparently it happened so long ago, or maybe it's so rare, that Americans
agree on this particular word.

[Don Phillipson]

"Traddict" <Tradd...@hotmail.fr> wrote in message
news:53876e16$0$2226$426a...@news.free.fr...

> My point is that derivatives of words follow a certain logic. If you take
> the word "genocide" for example, it's derived from latin "genus" +
> "occidere", the roots of both of which have been picked up to form a new
> word whose meaning in effect reflects the combined meanings of "genus" +
> "occidere". Now with "tawdry", what you have is a very approximate
> phonetical rendition of "Saint Audrey" (which in itself doesn't mean
> anything) so that "tawdry" has only come to adopt its current meaning
> through a series of far-fetched associations.

"Genocide" was coined deliberately in order to provide a legal
name for a pattern of behavior that had no specific word to define it.
This very different from Chinese Whispers or the unintentional change
of a phrase by frequent repetition over time, as St. Audrey >> tawdry or
God be with you >> Goodbye.

It is hard to see any reason why change of the first type and change of
the second ought to "follow a certain logic": of how words are derived,
and why this logic should be the same for different types of word creation.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Traddict]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> a �crit dans le message de groupe
de discussion : 5dd69908-91aa-4dbc...@googlegroups.com...

That's "ledger domain", right?

[David Kleinecke]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 2:44:22 PM UTC-7, Traddict wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> a �crit dans le message de groupe
>

> > Its English pronunciation is exactly as it's spelled. Brits do that.
> > Apparently it happened so long ago, or maybe it's so rare, that Americans
> > agree on this particular word.
>
> That's "ledger domain", right?

If you mean as two apparent separate words then it is the same
in my speech. The first word is "ledger" but I would have to
write the second as "d'main". The apostrophe is a very weak
schwa. I pronounce most words with weak unaccented first syllables
that way - for example "k'new". I think these schwas are going
away in English and we are getting a whole flock of new syllable
initial consonant clusters. But, that will be in the future,
today there is still enough of a schwa to justify writing it.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/29/14 8:15 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Thursday, May 29, 2014 2:44:22 PM UTC-7, Traddict wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> a �crit dans le message de groupe
>>
>>> Its English pronunciation is exactly as it's spelled. Brits do that.
>>> Apparently it happened so long ago, or maybe it's so rare, that Americans
>>> agree on this particular word.
>>
>> That's "ledger domain", right?
>
> If you mean as two apparent separate words then it is the same
> in my speech.

For me, "domain" has a real o, not a schwa.

> The first word is "ledger" but I would have to
> write the second as "d'main". The apostrophe is a very weak
> schwa. I pronounce most words with weak unaccented first syllables
> that way - for example "k'new".

That's "canoe", not an eccentric pronunciation of "knew", right?

> I think these schwas are going
> away in English and we are getting a whole flock of new syllable
> initial consonant clusters. But, that will be in the future,
> today there is still enough of a schwa to justify writing it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

What is? It's spelled <legerdemain>, stressed on the first syllable, and
all the vowels receive their most common English pronunciations.

[Katy Jennison]

The lightness of the hand is in control of the account books? Sounds legit.

--
Katy Jennison

[Traddict]

"Katy Jennison" <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> a �crit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : lm9u5f$cfr$1...@news.albasani.net...

Exactly, that figures!

>
> --
> Katy Jennison

[Traddict]

"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> a �crit dans le message de groupe
de discussion : lm80si$29a$1...@news.albasani.net...

> "Traddict" <Tradd...@hotmail.fr> wrote in message
> news:53876e16$0$2226$426a...@news.free.fr...
>
>> My point is that derivatives of words follow a certain logic. If you take
>> the word "genocide" for example, it's derived from latin "genus" +
>> "occidere", the roots of both of which have been picked up to form a new
>> word whose meaning in effect reflects the combined meanings of "genus" +
>> "occidere". Now with "tawdry", what you have is a very approximate
>> phonetical rendition of "Saint Audrey" (which in itself doesn't mean
>> anything) so that "tawdry" has only come to adopt its current meaning
>> through a series of far-fetched associations.
>
> "Genocide" was coined deliberately in order to provide a legal
> name for a pattern of behavior that had no specific word to define it.

Why do you think all other words have been created for, apart from "creating
a name" for something? I repeat: most derivatives use the roots of the words
they are derived from in a rational way. Not so "tawdry".

> This very different from Chinese Whispers

Very few words have come to exist by virtue of "Chinese whispers", so that
in itself is worth mentioning, isn't it?

or the unintentional change
> of a phrase by frequent repetition over time, as St. Audrey >> tawdry or
> God be with you >> Goodbye.

If, as you write, "goodbye" is a mere distortion of "God be with you", it
appears it is used in situations were "God be with you" could very well be
used instead. Now, by contrast, try to describe something as cheap or gaudy
by citing the name of a saint, even if this name as been shortened by
apheresis, and hopefully you might understand the difference.

>
> It is hard to see any reason why change of the first type and change of
> the second ought to "follow a certain logic": of how words are derived,
> and why this logic should be the same for different types of word
> creation.

I didn't write that.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-29 17:27:40 +0000, Traddict said:

> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> a �crit dans le message
> de groupe de discussion : bup5cg...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2014-05-29 12:45:57 +0000, Traddict said:
>>
>>> By definition, an onomatopoeia is "phonic", i.e. it imitates natural
>>> sounds, which give it its meaning.
>>>
>>> How about words created after other words, the sound of which they
>>> adopt without any logic in their shape? I'm thinking of words like
>>> "tawdry" coined after "Saint Audrey" (where the "Sain" part is
>>> obliterated) or "legerdemain" apparently coined after the French phrase
>>> "l�ger de main"? I've always wondered whether there is a proper term
>>> for that kind of "lexical onomatopoeia".
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand your point, in particular "without any logic".
>
> My point is that derivatives of words follow a certain logic. If you
> take the word "genocide" for example, it's derived from latin "genus" +
> "occidere", the roots of both of which have been picked up to form a
> new word whose meaning in effect reflects the combined meanings of
> "genus" + "occidere". Now with "tawdry", what you have is a very
> approximate phonetical rendition of "Saint Audrey" (which in itself
> doesn't mean anything) so that "tawdry" has only come to adopt its
> current meaning through a series of far-fetched associations.

I find your thoughts on "tawdry" very strange. Maybe you're thinking
that "St Audrey" is pronounced in English as it would be in French, but
it isn't. The "St" is a very weak syllable with barely even a schwa as
vowel, and "tawdry" is pronounced exactly the same after loss of the
very weak first syllable. Nothing remotely strange about that. As far
as I can there is nothing far-fetched about the association between the
adjective and the saint's day, either.

> I know this is not the definition of "onomatopeia", but then again I
> find the relationship between the original phrase and it's "derivative"
> so loose that I can't think of a better term than "onomatopeia" to
> refer to it. The basic idea is that it's a bit as though a word were
> taken as a sheer sound and carried over to other words/phrases
> irrespective of any syntactical or even semantical considerations. (I
> must admit the idea is hard to express and may seem unclear, though).
>
> Same goes for "legerdemain", with slight nuances.
>
> My gut feeling is that this is a distinct linguistic process and there
> must be some specific term for it (that was the object this topic) -
> but then I may very well be wrong.
>
> "Tawdry" is just a natural shortening of St Audrey, and the
>> logic, as I understand it, is that rubbishy stuff was sold on her day
>> (rather than every day, as now). "Legerdemain" isn't even that: it's
>> just an English adoption of a French phrase.
>>
>> The other day I drove through Saint Chinian, an illustration that
>> French does the same thing, as its name is a misanalysis of the Occitan
>> name Sanch Inian.
>>
>>
>> --
>> athel

--
athel

[Guy Barry]

"Traddict" wrote in message news:5388cfca$0$2930$426a...@news.free.fr...

>
>
>
>"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> a �crit dans le message de groupe
>de discussion : lm80si$29a$1...@news.albasani.net...

>> "Genocide" was coined deliberately in order to provide a legal
>> name for a pattern of behavior that had no specific word to define it.
>
>Why do you think all other words have been created for, apart from
>"creating a name" for something?

Most words weren't deliberately created at all.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 30 May 2014 21:31:40 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2014-05-29 17:27:40 +0000, Traddict said:
>

>> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> a écrit dans le message

>> de groupe de discussion : bup5cg...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2014-05-29 12:45:57 +0000, Traddict said:
>>>
>>>> By definition, an onomatopoeia is "phonic", i.e. it imitates natural
>>>> sounds, which give it its meaning.
>>>>
>>>> How about words created after other words, the sound of which they
>>>> adopt without any logic in their shape? I'm thinking of words like
>>>> "tawdry" coined after "Saint Audrey" (where the "Sain" part is
>>>> obliterated) or "legerdemain" apparently coined after the French phrase

>>>> "léger de main"? I've always wondered whether there is a proper term

>>>> for that kind of "lexical onomatopoeia".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand your point, in particular "without any logic".
>>
>> My point is that derivatives of words follow a certain logic. If you
>> take the word "genocide" for example, it's derived from latin "genus" +
>> "occidere", the roots of both of which have been picked up to form a
>> new word whose meaning in effect reflects the combined meanings of
>> "genus" + "occidere". Now with "tawdry", what you have is a very
>> approximate phonetical rendition of "Saint Audrey" (which in itself
>> doesn't mean anything) so that "tawdry" has only come to adopt its
>> current meaning through a series of far-fetched associations.
>
>I find your thoughts on "tawdry" very strange. Maybe you're thinking
>that "St Audrey" is pronounced in English as it would be in French, but
>it isn't. The "St" is a very weak syllable with barely even a schwa as
>vowel, and "tawdry" is pronounced exactly the same after loss of the
>very weak first syllable. Nothing remotely strange about that. As far
>as I can there is nothing far-fetched about the association between the
>adjective and the saint's day, either.

Origins of "tawdry" from the OED.

tawdry, n. and adj.

Forms: 15 tauthrie, tawdrie (see next), 16 taudrey, tawdery, 16–17
taudry, 16– tawdry.
Etymology: As noun short for tawdry lace n., q.v.; hence referring
to the showy but cheap quality of these in the 17th century.

A. n.

†1. Short for tawdry lace n. Obs.
1612...

2. Cheap and pretentious finery.

B. adj.
1.
a. Of the nature of cheap finery; showy or gaudy without real value.

etc.

tawdry lace, n.

Etymology: See T n. Initialisms 2.
Obs.

In the earliest quotation St. Audrey's lace, i.e. lace of St.
Audrey, Etheldrida, or Æþelðryþ (daughter of Anna king of East
Anglia, and patron saint of Ely): A silk ‘lace’ or necktie, much
worn by women in the 16th and early 17th c.; sometimes taken as a
type of female adornments. [As to the origin of the name, it is
told, originally by Bæda ( Eccl. Hist. iv. ix.), and after him by
Ælfric in the Life of St. Æþelðryth, Virgin ( Ælfric's Lives of
Saints, ed. Skeat, 1885, xx. ll. 49–60), that St. Audrey died of a
tumour in her throat, which she considered to be a just retribution,
because in her youth she had for vain show adorned her neck with
manifold splendid necklaces, ‘forðan þe ic on iugoðe frætwede mine
swuran mid mænigfealdum swurbeagum’. In the 16th century, N.
Harpsfield, Archdeacon of Canterbury under Philip and Mary (died
1588), after relating the story in his (Latin) Historia Anglicana
Ecclesiastica (Douay 1622), adds ‘Our women of England are wont to
wear about the neck a certain necklace [torquem quendam ], formed
of thin and fine silk, perchance in memory of what we have told’.
See also, more particularly, quot. 1674 below. Skinner in his
Etymologicon (licensed 1668), explains Tawdry lace as ‘Ties,
fringes, or bands, bought at the fair held at the fane of St.
Etheldreda, as rightly points out Doctor Th. Henshaw’. There is no
| discrepancy between the two statements. ‘St. Audrey's laces’ would
| naturally be largely offered for sale at her fair, and though this
| did not give the article its name, it doubtless made it more widely
| known, and led to the production of cheap and showy forms for the
| ‘country wenches’ (see Nares s.v.), which at length gave to tawdry
| its later connotation.]


T, n.

III.

6. T at the end of a word has sometimes been attached to the word
following when this begins with a vowel: hence the to adj., the tone
pron. and adj., the tother pron. and adj.; see also discussion of ?.
forms at it pron., adj., and n.1 The final t of Saint has in
several cases been popularly prefixed to the name, as in Tandrew,
Tandry = St. Andrew; Tann = St. Ann, hence Tanswell; Tantolin = St.
Antholin; Tooly = St. Olave; see also tanton n., tantony n., tawdry
n. and adj.

This change from "St Audrey" to "Taudrey", now spelled as "tawdry" with
the same pronunciation is metanalysis (or "rebracketing"[1]).

1914 O. Jespersen Mod. Eng. Gram. II. v. 141, I have ventured to
coin the word ‘metanalysis’ for the phenomenon frequent in all
languages that words or word-groups are by a new generation
analyzed differently from the analysis of a former age.

1957 G. V. Smithers Kyng Alisaunder II. 138 jker < OE. nicor by
a process of metanalysis in which an initial consonant is treated
as the final consonant of the preceding word, or a final consonant
is attracted into the beginning of the next word.

Other examples of metanalysis are "a napron" > "an apron", "an ewt" > "a
newt" and "a nadder" > "an adder".

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebracketing


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Traddict]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> a écrit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : 82fjo9tunbvio7c1o...@4ax.com...

Thanks indeed, I must say I'd never heard of "metanalysis".

Maybe the double usage of "an air miss"/ "a near miss" (which has always
puzzled me) pertains to that process too, with an additional
vowel-alteration?

[Guy Barry]

"Traddict" wrote in message news:5389f7fa$0$2912$426a...@news.free.fr...

> Peter Duncanson wrote:

>> Other examples of metanalysis are "a napron" > "an apron", "an ewt" > "a
>> newt" and "a nadder" > "an adder".

>Thanks indeed, I must say I'd never heard of "metanalysis".

>Maybe the double usage of "an air miss"/ "a near miss" (which has always
>puzzled me) pertains to that process too, with an additional
>vowel-alteration?

Wikipedia says "A near miss is an unplanned event that did not result in
injury, illness, or damage – but had the potential to do so. Only a
fortunate break in the chain of events prevented an injury, fatality or
damage; in other words, a miss that was nonetheless very near." It can
occur in all sorts of contexts, not just aviation.

I've never heard the phrase "an air miss", although it seems to be defined
as "a situation in which two aircraft pass very close to one another in the
air; near miss". Are you suggesting that it might have come about via a
mishearing of "a near miss"?

--
Guy Barry

[Traddict]

"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
de discussion : jUmiv.163651$i96....@fx11.am4...

Yes, I suppose so. I don't know about English, but in French, that kind of
confusion is quite common (e.g. "rabattre les oreilles" for "rebattre les
oreilles", etc.), so that wouldn't really surprise me.

>
> --
> Guy Barry

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

As far as I know "an air miss" is as per the definition you give. I'd
guess that "air" is in the phrase to distinguish it from a near miss on
the ground.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:51:48 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Traddict" wrote in message news:5389f7fa$0$2912$426a...@news.free.fr...

> >Maybe the double usage of "an air miss"/ "a near miss" (which has always
> >puzzled me) pertains to that process too, with an additional
> >vowel-alteration?
>
> Wikipedia says "A near miss is an unplanned event that did not result in

> injury, illness, or damage - but had the potential to do so. Only a

> fortunate break in the chain of events prevented an injury, fatality or
> damage; in other words, a miss that was nonetheless very near." It can
> occur in all sorts of contexts, not just aviation.
> I've never heard the phrase "an air miss", although it seems to be defined
> as "a situation in which two aircraft pass very close to one another in the
> air; near miss". Are you suggesting that it might have come about via a
> mishearing of "a near miss"?

I'd guess that some wag came up with "an air miss" after someone pointed
out that a near miss is in fact a near crash, not a near miss (it's a
total miss). A miss is as good as a mile. (Cue stupid puns.)

[Guy Barry]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
news:auako91l738d2g9h1...@4ax.com...

Then shouldn't it really be "an air near miss" rather than "an air miss"?
Aircraft miss obstacles all the time (thankfully).

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:615f9a77-6de0-4bc4...@googlegroups.com...

>I'd guess that some wag came up with "an air miss" after someone pointed
>out that a near miss is in fact a near crash, not a near miss (it's a
>total miss). A miss is as good as a mile. (Cue stupid puns.)

But a "near miss" *is* a near miss; it's a miss that is near. What it isn't
is a "near-miss" (nearly a miss). Hence the confusion.

--
Guy Barry

[CDB]

On 01/06/2014 3:04 AM, Guy Barry wrote:

> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>>> I've never heard the phrase "an air miss", although it seems to
>>> be defined as "a situation in which two aircraft pass very close
>>> to one another in the air; near miss". Are you suggesting that
>>> it might have come about via a mishearing of "a near miss"?

>> As far as I know "an air miss" is as per the definition you give.
>> I'd guess that "air" is in the phrase to distinguish it from a near
>> miss on the ground.

> Then shouldn't it really be "an air near miss" rather than "an air
> miss"? Aircraft miss obstacles all the time (thankfully).

Yes, very orderly. But then there's "air kiss" (qgg).

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 1 Jun 2014 08:04:07 +0100, "Guy Barry"

<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
>news:auako91l738d2g9h1...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Sat, 31 May 2014 16:51:48 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>I've never heard the phrase "an air miss", although it seems to be defined
>>>as "a situation in which two aircraft pass very close to one another in
>>>the
>>>air; near miss". Are you suggesting that it might have come about via a
>>>mishearing of "a near miss"?
>>
>>As far as I know "an air miss" is as per the definition you give. I'd
>>guess that "air" is in the phrase to distinguish it from a near miss on
>>the ground.
>
>Then shouldn't it really be "an air near miss" rather than "an air miss"?
>Aircraft miss obstacles all the time (thankfully).

Jargon. Brevity.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 11:51:30 AM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:

> "It's not a near miss, it's a near hit!" -- George Carlin

20 hours this time. I need a siglum for that. "+1" is taken. Maybe |%|

[Mike L]

I believe it's classed as an air miss if the two machines pass within
something like a mile of one another. But I was once the student pilot
in a glider overtaken at speed by some powered moron doing a corkscrew
at a separation small enough for his wake to shake our machine. I
shook a bit, too.

--
Mike.

[R H Draney]

CDB filted:

And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the entire field
without hitting a single target or coming within reach of the flippers....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Tony Cooper]

Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
hoop nor backboard.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[R H Draney]

Tony Cooper filted:

Here we have another term that describes a desired outcome in one field and one
to be avoided in another...like "strike" in bowling and in baseball....r

[Peter Moylan]

I would put "air kiss" in the same category as "air guitar".

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Traddict]

"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> a �crit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : lmg5h...@drn.newsguy.com...

There's also "air shot" in tennis and golf.

[CDB]

On 02/06/2014 6:16 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Guy Barry wrote:
>>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote:
>>>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>> I've never heard the phrase "an air miss", although it seems
>>>>> to be defined as "a situation in which two aircraft pass very
>>>>> close to one another in the air; near miss". Are you
>>>>> suggesting that it might have come about via a mishearing of
>>>>> "a near miss"?

>>>> As far as I know "an air miss" is as per the definition you
>>>> give. I'd guess that "air" is in the phrase to distinguish it
>>>> from a near miss on the ground.

>>> Then shouldn't it really be "an air near miss" rather than "an
>>> air miss"? Aircraft miss obstacles all the time (thankfully).

>> Yes, very orderly. But then there's "air kiss" (qgg).

> I would put "air kiss" in the same category as "air guitar".

I agree with that, from the point of view of meaning, and also with
Ron's and Traddict's suggestions. I meant to say that "an air miss" is
not an attempt to describe the near-encounter accurately, but a joking
portmanteau of "a near miss" and "an air kiss".

[Snidely]

R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :

An airball is desirable in pinball? I thought hitting the targets was
how you scored.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Dr Nick]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> writes:

> R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :
>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>> On 1 Jun 2014 14:21:42 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>>> And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the
>>>> entire field without hitting a single target or coming within
>>>> reach of the flippers....r
>>>
>>> Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
>>> hoop nor backboard.
>>
>> Here we have another term that describes a desired outcome in one
>> field and one to be avoided in another...like "strike" in bowling
>> and in baseball....r
>
> An airball is desirable in pinball? I thought hitting the targets
> was how you scored.

No. It's desired in basketball - a perfect "basket". And to be avoided
in pinball as it doesn't score. Which makes it just what it is being
described as.

[Snidely]

Tuesday, Dr Nick quipped:

Not so. A swish is desirable in basketball. An airball is a complete
miss. (The Lakers had a few this season, while the Clippers were much
on target.)

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

[Dr Nick]

Ah - I was assuming that whoever it was who said the snipped thing about
basketball was correct. It's a sport I know even less about than most.

[Tony Cooper]

Do you understand that "swish", in basketball, is a term to mean that
the ball went into the basket. A score. The object of the game.

The term describes the sound the ball makes when it goes through the
net that is supported by the rim that is the basket.

A famous sportscaster (sports presenter?) used to say "Swisheroo, the
ball goes through" every time a basket was scored. He was annoying in
other ways, too.

[Richard Bollard]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 23:29:59 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :
>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>> On 1 Jun 2014 14:21:42 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>>> And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the entire
>>>> field without hitting a single target or coming within reach of the
>>>> flippers....r
>>>
>>> Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
>>> hoop nor backboard.
>>
>> Here we have another term that describes a desired outcome in one field and
>> one to be avoided in another...like "strike" in bowling and in baseball....r
>
>An airball is desirable in pinball? I thought hitting the targets was
>how you scored.
>

In some games, if the ball doesn't score at all, you get it again.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

[Dr Nick]

Not until this moment. But I thought we were discussing airballs
(cough).

[Richard Yates]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 07:50:55 +0100, Dr Nick

My cat sounds like that when she 'as a 'airball.

[micky]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:08:31 +1000, Richard Bollard
<rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:

>On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 23:29:59 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :
>>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>>> On 1 Jun 2014 14:21:42 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the entire
>>>>> field without hitting a single target or coming within reach of the
>>>>> flippers....r
>>>>
>>>> Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
>>>> hoop nor backboard.

That's a swish.

>>> Here we have another term that describes a desired outcome in one field and
>>> one to be avoided in another...like "strike" in bowling and in baseball....r
>>
>>An airball is desirable in pinball? I thought hitting the targets was
>>how you scored.
>>
>In some games, if the ball doesn't score at all, you get it again.


--

Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 17:36:39 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:08:31 +1000, Richard Bollard
><rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 23:29:59 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :
>>>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>>>> On 1 Jun 2014 14:21:42 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the entire
>>>>>> field without hitting a single target or coming within reach of the
>>>>>> flippers....r
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
>>>>> hoop nor backboard.
>
>That's a swish.

Only if it goes through the net. If it misses the hoop, backboard and
net, it's an air ball.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 6/4/14 12:56 AM, Snidely wrote:
> Tuesday, Dr Nick quipped:
>> Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> R H Draney explained on 6/1/2014 :
>>>> Tony Cooper filted:
>>>>> On 1 Jun 2014 14:21:42 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>>> And "air ball", from pinball, for a ball that passes through the
>>>>>> entire field without hitting a single target or coming within
>>>>>> reach of the flippers....r
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinball? I thought it was basketball...a shot that touches neither
>>>>> hoop nor backboard.

And doesn't go through the hoop.

>>>> Here we have another term that describes a desired outcome in one
>>>> field and one to be avoided in another...like "strike" in bowling
>>>> and in baseball....r
>>>
>>> An airball is desirable in pinball? I thought hitting the targets
>>> was how you scored.
>>
>> No. It's desired in basketball - a perfect "basket". And to be avoided
>> in pinball as it doesn't score. Which makes it just what it is being
>> described as.
>
> Not so. A swish is desirable in basketball. An airball is a complete
> miss. (The Lakers had a few this season, while the Clippers were much
> on target.)

This is one of the rituals that unite my country:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlGHTa8Fkfc

--
Jerry Friedman

[micky]

Oh, yeah. I don't know why I assumed it was close.