Standard RP pronunciation of "often"?
zhengquan
Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
Thanks!
Zhegnquan
Wood Avens
wrote:
>Hi:
>Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
In UK English, my observation is that you can't tell anything from
this at all. Both pronunciations are standard RP.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Mark Barratt
> On 30 May 2007 22:13:49 -0700, zhengquan <zhang.zhengq...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi:
> >Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> >something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> In UK English, my observation is that you can't tell anything from
> this at all. Both pronunciations are standard RP.
I would agree that both pronunciations are standard English, but I'm
not so sure about RP (Received Pronunciation). I take RP to mean the
rather odd variety of English which is taught in what are called
"public schools" in Britain. I've had the opportunity recently to
study an individual who underwent such an education, and noticed
several peculiarities. Just one example: "used to" pronounced with an
unassimilated /zd/, i.e. /ju:zd t@/ as opposed to the standard /
ju:st@/. I would be surprised to find that teachers of RP could accept
the anarchy of a word with two correct pronunciations. Surely, one
form must be "correct" and the other "common".
--
Mark Barratt
Angoltanár budapesten
http://www.geocities.com/nyelvmark
Don Phillipson
news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Roland Hutchinson
> "zhengquan" <zhang.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
> This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
> which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
Not "most". "Many", perhaps.
m-w.com has it marked with their symbol for "occurs in educated speech
but... considered by some to be questionable or unacceptable", putting in a
class with "nucular".
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Nick Spalding
on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:32 -0400:
> "zhengquan" <zhang.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
> This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
> which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
I think I have heard Prince Charles say it almost like 'orphan'.
--
Nick Spalding
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Don Phillipson wrote, in <f3mgs9$3j...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
> on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:32 -0400:
>
> >news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > > something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> > British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
> > This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
> > which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
>
> I think I have heard Prince Charles say it almost like 'orphan'.
This is apparently the old pronunciation. A lot of words with "o"
before a fricative had the "caught" vowel--"off", "often", "loss",
etc. Wells calls these words the CLOTH class. This pronunciation
survives for a noticeable number of Americans, including me.
--
Jerry Friedman
Roland Hutchinson
Frequently?
athel...@yahoo
elderly priests who also pronounced "cross" as "crorss" (non-rhotic,
of course).
I think all three pronunciations (off-tn, offen and orphan) are
acceptable and I don't particularly notice which one anyone uses. I
normally say offen now, but I've certainly used both of the others at
one time or another.
It's curious that this is a question about "often" as if that word
were in some way special. But nobody pronounces the t in "soften" or
asks why we don't. Or do they?
athel
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> > on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:32 -0400:
>
> > >news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > > > something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> > > British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
> > > This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
> > > which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
>
> > I think I have heard Prince Charles say it almost like 'orphan'.
> > --
>
> When I was young that was quite common, especially in sermons given by
> elderly priests who also pronounced "cross" as "crorss" (non-rhotic,
> of course).
>
> I think all three pronunciations (off-tn, offen and orphan) are
> acceptable and I don't particularly notice which one anyone uses. I
> normally say offen now, but I've certainly used both of the others at
> one time or another.
>
> It's curious that this is a question about "often" as if that word
> were in some way special. But nobody pronounces the t in "soften" or
> asks why we don't. Or do they?
It's only a matter of time. Then "listen", then "rustle", "castle",
etc. One or two people have informed me that the "t" in "pestle"
should be pronounced. (AHD and MWCD on line show that as the second
pronunciation, but the NSOED is innocent.)
--
Jerry Friedman rhymes "plover" with "over".
Mike Lyle
> Nick Spalding wrote:
>
>> Don Phillipson wrote, in <f3mgs9$3j7$2...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>> on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:32 -0400:
>>
>>> "zhengquan" <zhang.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>>> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>>>
>>> British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
>>> This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
>>> which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
>>
>> I think I have heard Prince Charles say it almost like 'orphan'.
>
> Frequently?
"... only once."
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Don Phillipson
news:1180627261....@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> It's curious that this is a question about "often" as if that word
> were in some way special. But nobody pronounces the t in "soften" or
> asks why we don't. Or do they?
Many Americans seem to pronounce the T in often,
the R in orphan and even the L in palm. This might
be derived from schools in the early 20th century,
where teachers taught reading by phonics, i.e. "sounding
out" words as printed, and wanted to avoid the English accent
as supposedly affected or snobbish.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Hmm. The OED cites "orphan" back to the early fifteenth century,
which, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents
is right around where you see the first traces of loss of postvocalic
/r/ in England. So I'd guess that "orphan" started out with /r/ and
the fact that rhotic Americans pronounce it is due to their dialects
descending from those that never lost it rhather than it being a later
"reading pronunciation".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To express oneself
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Fred
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180633974....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 31, 10:01 am, "athel...@yahoo" <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Nick Spalding wrote:
>> > Don Phillipson wrote, in <f3mgs9$3j...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>> > on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:32 -0400:
>>
>> > > "zhengquan" <zhang.zhengq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > > > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> > > > something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>>
>> > > British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
>> > > This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
>> > > which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
>>
>> > I think I have heard Prince Charles say it almost like 'orphan'.
>> > --
>>
>> When I was young that was quite common, especially in sermons given by
>> elderly priests who also pronounced "cross" as "crorss" (non-rhotic,
>> of course).
>>
>> I think all three pronunciations (off-tn, offen and orphan) are
>> acceptable and I don't particularly notice which one anyone uses. I
>> normally say offen now, but I've certainly used both of the others at
>> one time or another.
>>
>> It's curious that this is a question about "often" as if that word
>> were in some way special. But nobody pronounces the t in "soften" or
>> asks why we don't. Or do they?
I've never heard the t in soften either, which makes me think the t in often
should be silent too. But it's hard to argue with the numbers. I'd say both
pronunciations ae equally common.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> "athel...@yahoo" <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1180627261....@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It's curious that this is a question about "often" as if that word
> > were in some way special. But nobody pronounces the t in "soften" or
> > asks why we don't. Or do they?
>
> Many Americans seem to pronounce the T in often,
> the R in orphan and even the L in palm. This might
> be derived from schools in the early 20th century,
> where teachers taught reading by phonics, i.e. "sounding
> out" words as printed, and wanted to avoid the English accent
> as supposedly affected or snobbish.
Is there some reason rhotic speakers shouldn't pronounce the "r" in
"orphan"?
I went to elementary school in the second half of the 20th century,
and I was taught by phonics, though I've heard this was unusual in the
U.S. at the time. I was specifically taught that the "t" in "often"
and the "l" in "palm" etc. were silent. I imagine the pronunciations
you note, which I've noticed too, started with people who weren't
taught much of anything or weren't listening.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle
A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
pronounce " 'ahmund".
Evan Kirshenbaum
> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
> pronounce " 'ahmund".
Assuming you mean the /A/ in "doll" rather than the /oU/ in "toll",
that's probably the most common American pronunciation, at least in
the areas I'm familiar with. (It's also the one I use.) /'&lm@nd/ is
also relatively common. /'Am@nd/ sounds a bit substandard to me.
(Although I'm sure it's not where you are.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired
|for their resemblance to a
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger.
(650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan
sage
Witness also "The Pirates of Penzance". The whole plot is hinged on that
pronunciation.
Cheers, Sage
sage
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
>> pronounce " 'ahmund".
>
> Assuming you mean the /A/ in "doll" rather than the /oU/ in "toll",
> that's probably the most common American pronunciation, at least in
> the areas I'm familiar with. (It's also the one I use.) /'&lm@nd/ is
> also relatively common. /'Am@nd/ sounds a bit substandard to me.
> (Although I'm sure it's not where you are.)
>
It's awe-mond in our house.
Cheers, sage
R H Draney
>
>A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
>pronounce " 'ahmund".
Growing up in California (where they grow a lot of the damned things, so they
have some influence) in the 1960s, we were taught to pronounce the L in both
"palm" and "almond"...the one in "salmon" was silent, though, and there the
"cat" vowel prevailed....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Al in Dallas
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Survives"! That's the way my family back in New Jersey pronounce
those words, and me too.
--
Al in St. Lou
Al in Dallas
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
>> pronounce " 'ahmund".
>
>Assuming you mean the /A/ in "doll" rather than the /oU/ in "toll",
>that's probably the most common American pronunciation, at least in
>the areas I'm familiar with. (It's also the one I use.) /'&lm@nd/ is
>also relatively common. /'Am@nd/ sounds a bit substandard to me.
>(Although I'm sure it's not where you are.)
Substandard!
Peter Moylan
> etc. One or two people have informed me that the "t" in "pestle"
> should be pronounced. (AHD and MWCD on line show that as the second
> pronunciation, but the NSOED is innocent.)
That made me think of someone crushing a bowl-full of cockroaches.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Mike M
wrote:
>
> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
> pronounce " 'ahmund".
>
" 'ahmund" sounds like a "minority Briticism" to me.
I say AL-mund.
Mike M
dcw
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
>> pronounce " 'ahmund".
>
>Assuming you mean the /A/ in "doll" rather than the /oU/ in "toll",
If it's a "Briticism", I'd read that as the /A./ in "doll", but I've
never heard it. The "l" is normally silent.
David
Leslie Danks
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> etc. One or two people have informed me that the "t" in "pestle"
>> should be pronounced. (AHD and MWCD on line show that as the second
>> pronunciation, but the NSOED is innocent.)
>
> That made me think of someone crushing a bowl-full of cockroaches.
Have you got acne?
"I live in South Florida and we have a lot of big palmetto bugs here! I
recently discovered a strange trick to make a topical medicine that is
amazing. If you take the belly of the giant palmetto cockroach and mush it
up with vitamin E oil (for uniformity), you have one heck of a topical
medicine. Mix about 30-40 large roach abdomens with roughly 30ml of vitamin
E oil and mortar and pestle until smooth. Keep this in the fridge for up to
a month and apply once daily at night. A THIN film should do the trick. It
may sting a little at first. but your skin will adjust. Layers will shed
and pores will open and smooth. There is a natural exfoliant/Antibiotic
found in the roach which sounds gross, but worked for me. I am crystal
clear now with NO side-effects. PLEASE SHARE YOUR SUCCESS STORIES."
<http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php?showtopic=64087&hl=>
--
Les
Mike Lyle
I scurried for the dictionaries. OED and Collins 2000 recognise only my
pronunciation. In IPA, /'a:m@nd/, where, Kirshenbaum style,
snailat=schwa. (I used the silly spelling before because the snailat
kept turning it into a pseudo-email address.)
Peter Moylan
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> etc. One or two people have informed me that the "t" in "pestle"
>>> should be pronounced. (AHD and MWCD on line show that as the second
>>> pronunciation, but the NSOED is innocent.)
>> That made me think of someone crushing a bowl-full of cockroaches.
>
> Have you got acne?
>
> "I live in South Florida and we have a lot of big palmetto bugs here! I
> recently discovered a strange trick to make a topical medicine that is
> amazing. If you take the belly of the giant palmetto cockroach and mush it
> up with vitamin E oil (for uniformity), you have one heck of a topical
The cure sounds worse than the ailment.
tony cooper
wrote:
>Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> etc. One or two people have informed me that the "t" in "pestle"
>>> should be pronounced. (AHD and MWCD on line show that as the second
>>> pronunciation, but the NSOED is innocent.)
>>
>> That made me think of someone crushing a bowl-full of cockroaches.
>
>Have you got acne?
>
>"I live in South Florida and we have a lot of big palmetto bugs here! I
>recently discovered a strange trick to make a topical medicine that is
>amazing. If you take the belly of the giant palmetto cockroach and mush it
>up with vitamin E oil
I have always wondered how things like this are discovered. I
imagine, in this case, someone with a bad case of acne trying various
concoctions until they find one that works.
Did this person first try a paste of squashed Love Bugs, then a
poultice of mashed maggots, and then a smear of grasshopper bodies?
How many insects were tried before the person decided "Hey!
Cockroaches did the trick, and now I can go to the Prom without
embarrassment!".
I don't think, like Charles Goodyear's accidental discovery of the
vulcanization process, that this particular discovery could be a
fortunate accident. No one leaves a cockroach's abdomen on a pimple
for a few days and suddenly notices the healing power of the bug guts.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
athel...@yahoo
speaker would suppress the r in "orphan". The rhotic people that I
know don't often talk about orphans, but the next time someone does
I'll have to listen carefully.
a.
Leslie Danks
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:49:09 +0200, Leslie Danks <Leslie...@aon.at>
> cited:
>>"I live in South Florida and we have a lot of big palmetto bugs here! I
>>recently discovered a strange trick to make a topical medicine that is
>>amazing. If you take the belly of the giant palmetto cockroach and mush it
>>up with vitamin E oil"
>
> I have always wondered how things like this are discovered. I
> imagine, in this case, someone with a bad case of acne trying various
> concoctions until they find one that works.
>
> Did this person first try a paste of squashed Love Bugs, then a
> poultice of mashed maggots, and then a smear of grasshopper bodies?
> How many insects were tried before the person decided "Hey!
> Cockroaches did the trick, and now I can go to the Prom without
> embarrassment!".
>
> I don't think, like Charles Goodyear's accidental discovery of the
> vulcanization process, that this particular discovery could be a
> fortunate accident. No one leaves a cockroach's abdomen on a pimple
> for a few days and suddenly notices the healing power of the bug guts.
Even if someone did, that sort of observation falls a bit short of a
double-blind clinical trial. Moreover, the cockroach guts cocktail also
contains vitamin E, which is itself believed to help cure acne, both taken
orally and applied topically - for example:
"To promote skin health, vitamin E may be taken internally or applied
topically. Research is somewhat divided about topical application, but many
users report faster healing from scars that vitamin E is directly applied
to, as well as a “healthy glow” to their skin. Some acne sufferers apply
vitamin E to their scars at night to speed healing. Vitamin E is also
popular in anti-aging products since, by firming-up your cells, it may
reduce the appearance of fine lines. However, some users report
experiencing more oily skin, which can promote acne."
<http://www.acne-vitamins.com/allclear/index.php/category/perspective/>
I don't think Boots the Chemist will be selling cockroaches any time soon.
--
Les
UC
wrote:
> "zhengquan" <zhang.zhengq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180588429.1...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?
>
> British official and upper class RP does not sound the T.
> This accent is now largely superseded by proletarian RP
> which sounds the T distinctly: so do most Americans.
No, we does not.
We says it "offun".
tony cooper
wrote:
>
>I don't think Boots the Chemist will be selling cockroaches any time soon.
I wonder, though, if they ever sold leeches.
If you are in the market for any, here's a company that does sell
them: http://www.leeches.biz/
R H Draney
>
>"I live in South Florida and we have a lot of big palmetto bugs here! I
>recently discovered a strange trick to make a topical medicine that is
>amazing. If you take the belly of the giant palmetto cockroach and mush it
>up with vitamin E oil (for uniformity), you have one heck of a topical
>medicine. Mix about 30-40 large roach abdomens with roughly 30ml of vitamin
>E oil and mortar and pestle until smooth. Keep this in the fridge for up to
>a month and apply once daily at night. A THIN film should do the trick. It
>may sting a little at first. but your skin will adjust. Layers will shed
>and pores will open and smooth. There is a natural exfoliant/Antibiotic
>found in the roach which sounds gross, but worked for me. I am crystal
>clear now with NO side-effects. PLEASE SHARE YOUR SUCCESS STORIES."
There may be bugs
On some of you mugs,
But there ain't no bugs on me!
Ian Noble
Exactly.
Cheers - Ian
Maria
Time to watch "The African Queen" again.
Even if it's fake, it's good cinema.
--
Maria
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On 31 May 2007 08:25:25 -0700, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
Yes, did you think I meant "barely survives"?
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Page
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Mike M wrote:
>> On 31 May, 22:31, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A minority Briticism I can't stand is "ollmond" for "almond", which I
>>> pronounce " 'ahmund".
>>>
>>
>> " 'ahmund" sounds like a "minority Briticism" to me.
>>
>> I say AL-mund.
>
>I scurried for the dictionaries. OED and Collins 2000 recognise only my
>pronunciation. In IPA, /'a:m@nd/, where, Kirshenbaum style,
>snailat=schwa. (I used the silly spelling before because the snailat
>kept turning it into a pseudo-email address.)
Nevertheless, there are quite a few people about who say almond
with an 'l'. Me among them, brought up in Lincolnshire; but I
think I caught it off my Mum, who was from Southampton.
--
Mike Page
Who has a space after the two dashes in his
sig. separator, honest.
Al in Dallas
wrote:
Even a blind Smeagol finds an acorn once in a while.
Al in Dallas
On second reading, I was wrong, but that is what I thought you meant.
We've got Evan calling ah-mund /Am@nd/ substandard.
Amethyst Deceiver
OldBloke does. He also pronounces the 'l' in folk, which is just wrong.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
R H Draney
>
>OldBloke does. He also pronounces the 'l' in folk, which is just wrong.
Leaving it out is fraught with peril:
http://www.sunmusic.tv/main/showcd.asp?cdno=5138712
Archie Valparaiso
wrought:
>Amethyst Deceiver filted:
>>
>>OldBloke does. He also pronounces the 'l' in folk, which is just wrong.
>
>Leaving it out is fraught with peril:
>
> http://www.sunmusic.tv/main/showcd.asp?cdno=5138712
If Dana's "All Kinds of Everything" is folk, what's Andy Williams --
death metal?