alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma..........
Robert Lieblich
>
> When one uses alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma, foxtrot,....tango. to Z.
>
> to stand for each alphabet, so one will not be phonetically mistaken.
> i.e. "v" vs. "b". Victor vs. Beta respectively.
>
> What do you call this in English usage when you use this in English
> language usage?
In English usage it's called the phonetic alphabet in English usage. In
English usage, I mean.
> Comments?
Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
Did I say in English usage?
Next?
Rob L.
bun...@my-dejanews.com
When one uses alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma, foxtrot,....tango. to Z.
to stand for each alphabet, so one will not be phonetically mistaken.
i.e. "v" vs. "b". Victor vs. Beta respectively.
What do you call this in English usage when you use this in English
language usage?
Comments?
Bun Mui
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Catherine Richardson
>Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
>kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
>whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
yankee, zulu'. Is this maybe another regional variation like zee vs.
zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
I know that there's at least one other version around -- the one that
starts out 'abel, baker, charlie'. Is this a regional variety or simply
an earlier version?
- Catherine, who also usually puts 'quebec, romeo' between P and S.
Bun Mui
> Re: alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma..........
>
> From: cath...@babel.ling.nwu.edu (Catherine Richardson)
> Reply to: [1]Catherine Richardson
> Date: 19 Jan 1999 04:07:08 GMT
> Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL
> Newsgroups:
> [2]alt.usage.english
> Followup to: [3]newsgroup(s)
> References:
> [4]<780n4a$poc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> [5]<36A3E5...@erols.com>
>
>Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
>>kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
>>whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>
>Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
>yankee, zulu'. Is this maybe another regional variation like zee vs.
>zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
In the U.K. they say "eee-zed" for "z", right?
Comments?
Bun Mui
n.mu...@bathspa.ac.uk
bun...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> When one uses alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma, foxtrot,....tango. to Z.
>
> to stand for each alphabet, so one will not be phonetically mistaken.
> i.e. "v" vs. "b". Victor vs. Beta respectively.
>
> What do you call this in English usage when you use this in English
> language usage?
>
> Comments?
>
> Bun Mui
>
OK, this is a serious reply to a Bunmui; forgive me... When I used to work
for the Post Office many moons ago we would use something very similar to
this for verbal transmission of telegrams when difficult words or addresses
needed to be clarified. It was referred to as "Analogy". That was what we
used to call this in English usage when we used to use it in English language
usage. - Neil.
Matt Sims
want to go here:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/bck1/menu.html
Matt Sims
cheshir...@my-dejanews.com
cath...@babel.ling.nwu.edu (Catherine Richardson) wrote:
> Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
> >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
> >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>
> Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
> yankee, zulu'. Is this maybe another regional variation like zee vs.
> zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
>
> starts out 'abel, baker, charlie'. Is this a regional variety or simply
> an earlier version?
I think that is an earlier army phonetic alphabet. BTW Britain had a different
phonetic alphabet, so perhaps the Canadian version is based on that (A.M. was
Abel Mike in USA, but Ack Emma in UK)
Cheerz
cheshirecat
M.J.Powell
>>>Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
>>>kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
>>>whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>>
>>Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
>>yankee, zulu'.
That's correct. It's the NATO alphabet, used by virtually everyone in
communications.
> Is this maybe another regional variation like zee vs.
>>zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
>
>
>In the U.K. they say "eee-zed" for "z", right?
No. zed.
Mike
khann
>
. . .
>
> I think that is an earlier army phonetic alphabet. BTW Britain had a different
> phonetic alphabet, so perhaps the Canadian version is based on that (A.M. was
> Abel Mike in USA, but Ack Emma in UK)
Everybody had their own version of the phonetic alphabet for
radiotelephony. The Alpha, Bravo . . . Zulu version is now the NATO
standard, a standard to which the US military adheres. Civilians do
whatever they like: "A" as in aisle, "C" as in Cedric, etc - Shelley
Berman had a good skit on this subject somewhere in the dim past.
Skitt
<cheshir...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:782bvn$60b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <7810dc$1...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
> cath...@babel.ling.nwu.edu (Catherine Richardson) wrote:
>> Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
juliet,
>> >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform,
victor,
>> >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>>
>> Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
>> zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
>>
>> starts out 'abel, baker, charlie'. Is this a regional variety or
simply
>> an earlier version?
>
different
>phonetic alphabet, so perhaps the Canadian version is based on that
(A.M. was
>Abel Mike in USA, but Ack Emma in UK)
Yes, an earlier army alphabet it is, and its first letter was "able",
not "Abel".
--
Skitt http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5537/
Central Florida CAUTION: My opinion may vary.
Unna
>
> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:54:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
> <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
> >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
> >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>
and, of course, if we remember juliet, let's not forget "romeo". Also,
as I remember from my Vietnam era Special Communications days, quebec
was pronounced kay-beck ("kay" as in "day", but this was possibly a
SPECOMMDIV nuance and may not have been in general use in the Navy at
that time), and Z was zulu (which is discussed elsewhere in this
thread).
Unna
Robert Lieblich
Okay, all the alcohol's out of the system. Indeed I did leave out
Quebec (which I learned as "kay-BECK") and Romeo, and it is Zulu rather
than Zebra. So much for trusting one's addled memory.
Thank you all, brethren and cistern in English usage, for the
corrections.
Rob L.
JNugent
>Unna wrote:
>>
>> Craig Welch wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:54:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
>> > <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india,
juliet,
>> > >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform,
victor,
>> > >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>
>Okay, all the alcohol's out of the system. Indeed I did leave out
>Quebec (which I learned as "kay-BECK") and Romeo, and it is Zulu rather
>than Zebra. So much for trusting one's addled memory.
That would certainly represent the military/law enforcement
radio-communication alpha-system, but there are plenty of UK civilian and
commercial radio circuits where other (similar) systems are in use. One I
can think of was in use on Liverpool taxicabs some years ago:
Able, Baker, Charlie, Don (!), Easy, Fred, George, Harry, India, Johnny,
Kilo, [L?], Mike, Nor (!), Peter, Queue, [R?], [S?], Tango, Unit, Victor,
Whisky, X-Ray, Yankee, Zed.
Sorry about the ones I couldn't remember.
Each of the alpha signs was divided into ten numerical signs, enabling 260
taxicabs to be individually identified. I do remember that "Don 1" was a
sought-after call-sign. Probably still is.
P&DSchultz
>
> >Alfa, bravo, charlie, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel, india, juliet,
> >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
> >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
Z should be "zulu." The intent here was to pick international words,
so that the alphabet could be used by people who spoke various
European languages.
//P. Schultz
>
> Oh man. I was with you nearly to the end. I learned it as 'x-ray,
> yankee, zulu'. Is this maybe another regional variation like zee vs.
> zed? The version I learned was in Canada (where we say 'zed').
>
> I know that there's at least one other version around -- the one that
> starts out 'abel, baker, charlie'. Is this a regional variety or simply
> an earlier version?
>
John Swindle
new we had +ACI-alpha, bravo, coca, delta, echo, foxtrot, golf, hotel,
india, juliet, kilo, lima, metro, november, oscar, papa, quebec, romeo,
sierra, tango, victor, uniform, whiskey, extra, yankee, zulu.+ACI- I think
+ACI-coca+ACI- became politically dangerous and +ACI-extra+ACI- was too perplexing
because it didn't start with +ACI-x+ACI-, so they went back to +ACI-charlie+ACI- and +ACI-x-ray+ACI-
from the older American (US of) system. Don't know what happened to
+ACI-metro.+ACI-
Alan J. Flavell
> In article <780n4a$poc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> bun...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > When one uses alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma, foxtrot,....tango. to Z.
> >
> > to stand for each alphabet, so one will not be phonetically mistaken.
> > i.e. "v" vs. "b". Victor vs. Beta respectively.
> >
> > What do you call this in English usage when you use this in English
> > language usage?
NATO
> > Comments?
No, thanks.
> OK, this is a serious reply to a Bunmui; forgive me... When I used to work
> for the Post Office many moons ago we would use something very similar to
> this for verbal transmission of telegrams when difficult words or addresses
> needed to be clarified. It was referred to as "Analogy".
If you say so.
You may say nahto, I'll say nayto... etc.
Larry Phillips
>
> In the U.K. they say "eee-zed" for "z", right?
No, they don't. Any reason why you think they might?
> Comments?
Sure. I'll take five.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
I like deadlines. I especially like the whooshing sound of them
as they go flying by.
Larry Phillips
> I know that there's at least one other version around -- the one that
> starts out 'abel, baker, charlie'. Is this a regional variety or
> simply an earlier version?
IBM used to (1960s or so) use that one, or a variant. I doubt I can
remember them all, but here goes,
able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, hotel, <no I>, jack,
king, <???>, mary, nancy, <no O>, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tom,
<??>, victor, <???>, xray, zebra
We never used I or O because they were too easy to confuse with 1 and 0.
Unna
>
> Robert Lieblich wrote in message <36A504...@erols.com>...
>
> >Unna wrote:
> >>
> >> Craig Welch wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:54:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
> >> > <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> Each of the alpha signs was divided into ten numerical signs, enabling 260
> taxicabs to be individually identified. I do remember that "Don 1" was a
> sought-after call-sign. Probably still is.
Does that imply that Don260 would possibly be "The Last Don"
Sorry, folks... couldn't resist... dropping back into the lurk realm
again ;-)
Unna
Unna
SLHinton17
<lar...@home.com>, wrote:
[snip]
IBM used to (1960s or so) use that one, or a variant. I doubt I can
remember them all, but here goes,
>able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, hotel, <no I>, jack,
>king, <???>, mary, nancy, <no O>, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tom,
><??>, victor, <???>, xray, zebra
***********************
That looks very much like the system the Navy used during WW II. If it is the
same, I can fill in the "L" space. I was a civilian writer-illustrator with
the University of California Division of War Research, and one of our editors
was named E. L. Jones. He became known as "Easy Love" Jones -- so there's the
"L" -- "love." I can't remember "u" and "w."
Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
bun...@my-dejanews.com
lar...@home.com wrote:
> Bun Mui wrote:
> >
> > In the U.K. they say "eee-zed" for "z", right?
>
> No, they don't. Any reason why you think they might?
How do you know are you British?
Comments?
Bun Mui
>
> > Comments?
>
> Sure. I'll take five.
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> I like deadlines. I especially like the whooshing sound of them
> as they go flying by.
>
> http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
bun...@my-dejanews.com
n.mu...@bathspa.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <780n4a$poc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> bun...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > When one uses alpha, beta, Charlie, delta, gamma, foxtrot,....tango. to Z.
> >
> > to stand for each alphabet, so one will not be phonetically mistaken.
> > i.e. "v" vs. "b". Victor vs. Beta respectively.
> >
> > What do you call this in English usage when you use this in English
> > language usage?
> >
> >
> > Bun Mui
> >
>
> OK, this is a serious reply to a Bunmui; forgive me... When I used to work
> for the Post Office many moons ago we would use something very similar to
> this for verbal transmission of telegrams when difficult words or addresses
> used to call this in English usage when we used to use it in English language
> usage. - Neil.
You are forgiven!
I thought maybe "metaphor or parody" would be more appropriate to describe
it?
Comments?
Bun Mui
Robert Lieblich
The whole thing, from memory (but at least I'm sober this time:
able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, how, item, jig, king,
love, mike, nan, oboe, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tare, uncle, victor,
william, xray, yoke, zebra.
This is not the only known variant, but I found it originally in a WWII
Navy communications text, so I assume it had official status at some
point.
Bob Lieblich
Robert Lieblich
<snip>
> How do you know are you British?
You look at your passport. If it's a British passport, you're British.
> Comments?
Sheesh, Bun, don't you know anything?
Rob L.
Larry Phillips
> That looks very much like the system the Navy used during WW II. If
> it is the same, I can fill in the "L" space. I was a civilian
> writer-illustrator with the University of California Division of War
> Research, and one of our editors was named E. L. Jones. He became
> known as "Easy Love" Jones -- so there's the "L" -- "love." I can't
> remember "u" and "w."
Love! Yup.. that's the one.
Larry Phillips
> The whole thing, from memory (but at least I'm sober this time:
Pity.
> able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, how, item, jig, king,
> love, mike, nan, oboe, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tare, uncle,
> victor, william, xray, yoke, zebra.
Ahh! I would amend mine, since you reminded me, and corrected my memory
of a few, to:
> able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, how, <no I>, jack, king,
> love, mary, nancy, <no O>, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tom, uncle,
> victor, william, xray, <???>, zebra
Pretty sure about these. Some were used more often than others, in
diffeent pin numbering schemes.
Larry Phillips
>
> In article <36A57EF7...@home.com>,
>
> How do you know are you British?
That should be "How do you know? Are you British?"
And I would then answer.
I know because The British would have no reason to put an 'eee' sound
before the 'zed' when naming that letter.
Only by heritage.
> Comments?
I'm still waiting for the first five I asked for.
Donna Richoux
[snip]
> The whole thing, from memory (but at least I'm sober this time:
>
> able, baker, charlie, dog, easy, fox, george, how, item, jig, king,
> love, mike, nan, oboe, peter, queen, roger, sugar, tare, uncle, victor,
> william, xray, yoke, zebra.
[snip]
As it says in the AUE FAQ and in the document I post called "Intro B:
Useful Web Sites for AUE Participants," there is a website listing many
versions of these phonetic alphabets. It is maintained by Brian Kelk and
the URL is
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/bck1/menu.html
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Patrick M. Berry
> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:54:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
> <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >kilo, lima, mike, november, oscar, papa, sierra, tango, uniform, victor,
> >whiskey, xray, yankee, zebra.
>
And Romeo.
Michael Cargal
>And Romeo.
"Romeo" is an interesting word in this context. The old US military
phonetic used "Roger." Each letter in this alphabet has a
single-letter meaning, such as "About to leave port" (papa) or "You
are running into danger" (uniform). The single-letter meaning for
Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
"Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply). This has gone into
mariners' language (and probably other folks' as well) in such
expressions as "Yeah, roger," or "Roger that," meaiing"You betcha."
Although Romeo has replaced Roger for lo these many years, I have
never heard a mariner say, "Romeo that, Jack."
--
Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
Armond Perretta
>Craig Welch wrote: ... Michael Cargal wrote: ... Patrick M. Berry
wrote: ...
>>>
>>>And Romeo.
>>
>>"Romeo" is an interesting word in this context. The old US military
>>phonetic used "Roger." Each letter in this alphabet has a
>>single-letter meaning, such as "About to leave port" (papa) or "You
>>are running into danger" (uniform). The single-letter meaning for
>>Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
>>"Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
>
>message and will comply with it".
Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the most glaring
is "Over and Out." "Over" means something like "I've finished my
transmission and expect a reply." "Out" means something like
"I've finished my transmission and am signing off. No reply is
necessary."
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat (Remove BOAT)
Larry Phillips
>> Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
>> "Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
>
> Which would be redundant, as "wilco" itself means "I understand your
> message and will comply with it".
Not so. While you might argue that 'wilco', which is an
abbreviation of 'will comply', contains an implicit 'I understand',
as well as an implicit 'message received', it is by no means
explicit in the term 'wilco'.
'Roger, wilco' is no more redundant than saying 'I have received and
understood your message, and will comply.'
Larry Phillips
> Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the most glaring
> is "Over and Out." "Over" means something like "I've finished my
> transmission and expect a reply." "Out" means something like
> "I've finished my transmission and am signing off. No reply is
> necessary."
While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes it clear that
the person on the other end is free to have the last word. I wouldn't
call it an error.
khann
>
> (Michael Cargal) wrote:
>
> >
> >. . . The single-letter meaning for
> >Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
> >"Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
>
> Which would be redundant, as "wilco" itself means "I understand your
> message and will comply with it".
There is no redundance at all, at least not in standard NATO military
radio voice procedure - the usage in some national military and civilian
organizations may differ. As Michael Cargal wrote: "Roger, wilco" means
"I understand" (Roger), and "I will comply" (wilco). These are two
separate responses.
Also in _standard_ NATO usage, "wilco" is usually reserved to commanders
(at whatever level) who have the ability and _authority_ to carry out
the instruction received. A commander receiving an order to move his
troops could reply "wilco". If the same order was received by his
signaller the reply would be "roger", because the signaller does not
have the authority to comply.
khann
>
> Armond Perretta wrote:
>
> > Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the most glaring
> > is "Over and Out." "Over" means something like "I've finished my
> > transmission and expect a reply." "Out" means something like
> > "I've finished my transmission and am signing off. No reply is
> > necessary."
>
> While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes it clear that
> the person on the other end is free to have the last word. I wouldn't
> call it an error.
All such words (known as prowords) in radio voice procedure have very
specific meanings.
"Over and out" is considered to be cartoon or amateur radio voice
procedure and those who use it in the military usually do it only once.
"Over" means "I have finished this part of my message and it is your
turn to speak." Implicit in this is "If you didn't understand that part
of my message now would be a good time to ask me to repeat it." "Over"
indicates that it is time to change speakers. The French equivalent is
"a vous", while the Italian and Spanish equivalent is "cambio" - the
meaning is clear.
"Acknowledge" is related to "over" in that it tells all stations on the
network that the message is finished and that they are directed to reply
in the form of an acknowledgement of receipt.
"Out" indicates that the speaker has finished the message and does not
expect further discussion about it. As Armond writes, no reply is
necessary.
"Out" does not indicate that the radio station is "signing off" in the
sense of shutting off the radio; the proword for that action is "closing
down."
John Leake
"Roger and out" is quite often used at the end of transmissions, at
least in commercial shipping.
John L.
Armond Perretta
>Larry Phillips wrote: ... Armond Perretta wrote: ...
>
>> Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the
>> most glaring is "Over and Out." "Over" means something
>> like "I've finished my transmission and expect a reply."
>> "Out" means something like "I've finished my transmission
>> and am signing off. No reply is necessary."
>
>While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes it
>clear that the person on the other end is free to have the last
> word. I wouldn't call it an error.
My comments are based on stand radio procedure. Unfortunately
if you were to use "over and out" it would be *perceived* as an error
even though *you* wouldn't call in an error.
Taking a slightly broader view, I don't imagine this is too great a
problem. Surely within the fraternity of radio communications
professionals there are subsets similar to those in a.u.e There are
probably radio descriptivists, radio prescriptivists, and so on.
There's probably even a "Radio Neil." Mind you, I'm not being
judgmental
.
Armond Perretta
>John Leake wrote: ... khann wrote: ... Larry
>Phillips wrote: ... Armond Perretta wrote: ...
>> > >
>> > > Several common errors occur in this setting. One of
>> > > the most glaring is "Over and Out." "Over" means
>> > > something like "I've finished my transmission and
>> > > expect a reply." "Out" means something like
>> > > "I've finished my transmission and am signing off.
>> > > No reply is necessary."
>> >
>> > While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes
>> > it clear that the person on the other end is free to have
>> > the last word. I wouldn't call it an error.
>>
>> have very specific meanings. "Over and out" is considered
>> to be cartoon or amateur radio voice procedure and those
>> who use it in the military usually do it only once. "Over" means
>> "I have finished this part of my message and it is your turn to
>> speak." Implicit in this is "If you didn't understand that part
>> of my message now would be a good time to ask me to
>> repeat it." "Over" indicates that it is time to change speakers.
>> The French equivalent is "a vous", while the Italian and Spanish
>> equivalent is "cambio" - the meaning is clear.
>>
>> "Acknowledge" is related to "over" in that it tells all stations on
>> the network that the message is finished and that they are
>>
>> "Out" indicates that the speaker has finished the message and
>> does not expect further discussion about it. As Armond writes,
>> no reply is necessary.
>>
>> "Out" does not indicate that the radio station is "signing off" in
>> the sense of shutting off the radio; the proword for that action is
>> "closing down."
>
>"Roger and out" is quite often used at the end of transmissions, at
>least in commercial shipping.
"Roger and out" is, to my unprofessional ear, a legitimate and
easily understood combination. We often say (and hear) a
modification like "roger, out." I'd make it as saying something
like: "I understand your last transmission; if an answer is required,
the answer is 'affirmative. I am ending this communication and
expect no further reply." The length of this last sentence shows
why prowords are used in the first place.
"Roger and out" is not at all in the same error category as "over
and out."
John Leake
>
> >Larry Phillips wrote: ... Armond Perretta wrote: ...
> >
> >> Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the
> >> most glaring is "Over and Out." "Over" means something
> >> like "I've finished my transmission and expect a reply."
> >> "Out" means something like "I've finished my transmission
> >> and am signing off. No reply is necessary."
> >
> >While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes it
> >clear that the person on the other end is free to have the last
> > word. I wouldn't call it an error.
>
> if you were to use "over and out" it would be *perceived* as an error
> even though *you* wouldn't call in an error.
>
> Taking a slightly broader view, I don't imagine this is too great a
> problem. Surely within the fraternity of radio communications
> professionals there are subsets similar to those in a.u.e There are
> probably radio descriptivists, radio prescriptivists, and so on.
> There's probably even a "Radio Neil." Mind you, I'm not being
> judgmental
> .
Ugh! If we were to have a list of least favourite words to parallel the
current favourites list, mine would without hesitation be "judgemental".
John L.
Armond Perretta
>John Leake: ... Armond Perretta wrote: ... Larry Phillips
>wrote: ... Armond Perretta wrote: ...
>> >>
>> >> Several common errors occur in this setting. One of the
>> >> most glaring is "Over and Out." "Over" means something
>> >> like "I've finished my transmission and expect a reply."
>> >> "Out" means something like "I've finished my transmission
>> >> and am signing off. No reply is necessary."
>> >
>> >While just 'out' would do the trick, 'over and out' makes it
>> >clear that the person on the other end is free to have the last
>> > word. I wouldn't call it an error.
>>
>> My comments are based on stand radio procedure. Unfortunately
>> if you were to use "over and out" it would be *perceived* as an
>> error even though *you* wouldn't call in an error.
>>
>> Taking a slightly broader view, I don't imagine this is too great a
>> problem. Surely within the fraternity of radio communications
>> professionals there are subsets similar to those in a.u.e There
>> are probably radio descriptivists, radio prescriptivists, and so
>> on. There's probably even a "Radio Neil." Mind you, I'm not
>> being judgmental
>
>the current favorites list, mine would without hesitation be
>"judgmental".
>
>John L.
A few notes:
First, "list" usually implies more than one entry. You probably
mean your _entry_ in the list.
Second, my list would start with "Ugh!" but I also might include
"judgmental."
Third, thanks for sharing.
Fourth, I'm not being judgmental. Honest.
Michael Cargal
wrote: ...
>>>
>>>And Romeo.
>>
>>"Romeo" is an interesting word in this context. The old US military
>>phonetic used "Roger." Each letter in this alphabet has a
>>single-letter meaning, such as "About to leave port" (papa) or "You
>>Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
>>"Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
>
>Which would be redundant, as "wilco" itself means "I understand your
>message and will comply with it".
Yes it would be if it were. As it is, it is a set phrase, in use for
scores of years by military and other radio users.
--
Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
khann
>
> "Roger and out" is, to my unprofessional ear, a legitimate and
>
> "Roger and out" is not at all in the same error category as "over
> and out."
Exactly! "Roger and out" or "Roger out" actually means something. "Over
and out" is a logical contradiction. Decoded, "over and out" means "It
is your turn to speak but I'm not going to listen."
M.J.Powell
snip
>Roger and out" is not at all in the same error category as "over
>and out."
Often used is 'Roger and Out to you'. Meaning 'Received and finished
with you', but continuing with another station.
Mike
Robert Lieblich
>
> Craig Welch wrote:
>
> >> Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
> >> "Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
> >
> > Which would be redundant, as "wilco" itself means "I understand your
> > message and will comply with it".
>
> abbreviation of 'will comply', contains an implicit 'I understand',
> as well as an implicit 'message received', it is by no means
> explicit in the term 'wilco'.
Regardless of the etymology of "wilco", it was the rule in the US
military, back when I was on active duty (at about the same time as
Sherman, Burnside, and Grant), that "wilco" meant "I have understood and
will comply." Its meaning included that of "roger" -- "I have
understood." "I have understood" may not be explicit in the *etymology*
of "wilco," but it's in the *definition*.
That said, I'm not bothered by "roger, wilco" among those who use it,
any more than I am by, say,m "Yes, I will." But in the US military,
"roger, wilco" is non-U.
>
> 'Roger, wilco' is no more redundant than saying 'I have received and
> understood your message, and will comply.'
Well, strictly speaking, if you follow the military definitions of the
term, it is redundant. Big deal.
Bob Lieblich
Brian J Goggin
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
[...]
>Regardless of the etymology of "wilco", it was the rule in the US
>military, back when I was on active duty (at about the same time as
>Sherman, Burnside, and Grant), that "wilco" meant "I have understood and
>will comply." Its meaning included that of "roger" -- "I have
>understood."
In Britain, the meaning of "roger" is closer to that of "know".
bjg
Ray Saintonge
Michael Cargal wrote:
> c...@pacific.net.sg (Craig Welch) wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:53:34 GMT, car...@cts.com (Michael Cargal)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>>>"Romeo" is an interesting word in this context. The old US military
> >>>>phonetic used "Roger." Each letter in this alphabet has a
> >>>>single-letter meaning, such as "About to leave port" (papa) or "You
> >>>>are running into danger" (uniform). The single-letter meaning for
> >>>>Roger was "I understand (or have received) your message," as in
> >>>>"Roger, wilco" (I understand and will comply).
> >>>
> >>>Which would be redundant, as "wilco" itself means "I understand your
> >>>message and will comply with it".
> >>
> >>Yes it would be if it were. As it is, it is a set phrase, in use for
> >>scores of years by military and other radio users.
> >
> >What is a set phrase? If you mean "roger, wilco", it is a
> >non-approved phrase in air traffic control radio use.
>
> A set phrase is a group of words that are used together regardless of
> the meaning of the individual words. I would call "roger, wilco" a set
> phrase because Roger has been replaced by Romeo in the NATO and US
> phonetic alphabets. Strictly speaking, it should be "Romeo, wilco,"
> but that sounds silly, so we still use "Roger, wilco." As to whether
> it is approved, I don't think it is in HO 102 (I don't know about the
> European version of it), but it certainly has the approval given by
> wide use. "Roger, wilco" is understood by air and marine folk, but
> "Romeo, wilco" would probably not be.
> --
> Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
I've been away from these for a long while, but it looks as though with
the phrase "Romeo, wilco" you are mixing up two separate meanings for
"Roger". I believe that the use of "Roger" to confirm understanding still
applies; its use as a phonetic representative for the letter "R" is what
has been replaced by "Roneo".
Ray
M.J.Powell
> I believe that the use of "Roger" to confirm understanding still
>applies; its use as a phonetic representative for the letter "R" is what
>has been replaced by "Roneo".
Duplicate answer?
Mike
mervyn
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo. Yankee Oscar Uniform
In article <yT6fl+A0...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> "M.J.Powell"
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> writes:>From: "M.J.Powell"
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>>Subject: Re: alpha, beta, Charlie, delta,
gamma..........>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:14:44 +0000
James Follett
>>>has been replaced by "Roneo".
Romeo, please. Roneo doesn't sound as sweet.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk