What's the opposite of "steep"?

[Guy Barry]

A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's the
opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there doesn't seem
to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?

--
Guy Barry

[R H Draney]

"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:4pi8x.725278$LW6....@fx09.am4:

> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?

"Reasonable"....

Now, what's the opposite of "more"?..."less" or "fewer"?...r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"sttep" seems to incorporate, or at least imply, the sense of "slope",
whereas "gentle" and "mild" don't.

So we can refer to a "steep road" but not a "gentle road" or a "mild
road". Suitable phrases would be "a gently sloping road", "a mildly
sloping road", a "road with a gentle slope" and "a road with a mild
slope".

I don't think "shallow" would work in EverydayE. It is the opposite of
"deep" rather than "steep".


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:30:43 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>"sttep" seems to incorporate, or at least imply, the sense of "slope",

"steep"...

[Peter T. Daniels]

If referring to a slope, "gentle."

If referring to tea, don't combine the water and tea leaves in the first place.

[David D S]

You could also say "cheap" as the opposite to "the price was quite
steep"
or is this just British English?

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2015/5/24 22:11:50

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/24/15 8:12 AM, David D S wrote:
> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:15:12 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer:
>>> what's the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and
>>> there doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"?
>>> "Shallow"?

"Flattish"? "Almost level"?

>> "sttep" seems to incorporate, or at least imply, the sense of "slope",
>> whereas "gentle" and "mild" don't.
>>
>> So we can refer to a "steep road" but not a "gentle road" or a "mild
>> road". Suitable phrases would be "a gently sloping road", "a mildly
>> sloping road", a "road with a gentle slope" and "a road with a mild
>> slope".
>>
>> I don't think "shallow" would work in EverydayE. It is the opposite of
>> "deep" rather than "steep".
>
> You could also say "cheap" as the opposite to "the price was quite
> steep"
> or is this just British English?

Normal in American English too. Ron Draney alluded to it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[HVS]

On 24 May 2015, Guy Barry wrote

> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
>

For "steep as in slope" (rather than tea or prices), "gradual" comes to mind.


--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 24 May 2015 14:12:32 GMT, "David D S" <inv...@m-invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:15:12 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer:
>> > what's the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and
>> > there doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"?
>> > "Shallow"?
>>
>> "sttep" seems to incorporate, or at least imply, the sense of "slope",
>> whereas "gentle" and "mild" don't.
>>
>> So we can refer to a "steep road" but not a "gentle road" or a "mild
>> road". Suitable phrases would be "a gently sloping road", "a mildly
>> sloping road", a "road with a gentle slope" and "a road with a mild
>> slope".
>>
>> I don't think "shallow" would work in EverydayE. It is the opposite of
>> "deep" rather than "steep".
>
>You could also say "cheap" as the opposite to "the price was quite
>steep"
>or is this just British English?

I went to the OED for inspiration from its entry for "steep, adj." and
found some older senses of the word which are completely new to me.

A. adj.
†1.
a. Extending to a great height; elevated, lofty.

†b. = ‘High’ in certain transferred uses. Of warriors or their
attributes: Of high courage, noble. Of a voice: High, loud. Obs.

2.
†a. Of eyes: Projecting, prominent (also steep-out); staring;
glaring with passion.

†b. Of jewels, eyes, stars: Brilliant. In later use only of eyes, in
the poetical phrase steep and gray. Obs.

3.
a. Of a hill, mountain, cliff: Having an almost perpendicular face
or slope, precipitous. Of a gradient or slope, a staircase, etc.:
High-pitched.
The sense prob. goes back to Old English, but is difficult to
authenticate, as when applied to mountains, cliffs, etc. the
word prob. expressed a mixed notion of senses A. 1, A. 3.

b. transf. of movement. poet.

†c. Of a ditch, cave or the like: Having precipitous sides or
entrance. Obs.

†d. Of a forehead: Upright, high. Obs. rare—1.

†e. Of water: Having a headlong course, flowing precipitously. Of
rain (Sc.): Pouring. Obs.

Purely personally, I'd expect to see "High-pitched", in 3.a, used to
describe a roof but not a staircase or other sloping thing.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:30:43 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

None apply to describing dining at a particular restaurant where the
prices are "steep".

Antonyms apply to the usage, not the word.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Guy Barry]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
news:i0d3ma9srgb7f89a3...@4ax.com...

>
>On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:15:12 +0100, "Guy Barry"
><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's the
>>opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there doesn't
>>seem
>>to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
>

[Typo corrected]
>"steep" seems to incorporate, or at least imply, the sense of "slope",

>whereas "gentle" and "mild" don't.

Indeed. As far as I can tell, there's no single word meaning "rising with a
gentle gradient". Which is strange when you consider that words like
"high", "long", "wide" and so on all have everyday antonyms.

The anomaly was pointed out to me by a non-native speaker with a very good
grasp of English. It's the sort of thing that native speakers often don't
notice.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"HVS" wrote in message news:XnsA4A4A118...@178.63.61.145...

>
>On 24 May 2015, Guy Barry wrote
>
>> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
>> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
>> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
>>
>For "steep as in slope" (rather than tea or prices), "gradual" comes to
>mind.

That was the best that I could come up with. But the opposite of "a steep
hill" isn't "a gradual hill". It's "a gradually sloping hill".

--
Guy Barry

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <Wqo8x.506464$Ox2.4...@fx23.am4>,

It's a gradual incline.

[Guy Barry]

"Horace LaBadie" wrote in message
news:hlabadie-08B7E3...@nntp.aioe.org...

Indeed it is. My point is that there's no single adjective you can apply to
"hill" to convey the meaning of "a gradual incline" - as far as I know.

--
Guy Barry

[Richard Tobin]

In article <i0d3ma9srgb7f89a3...@4ax.com>,

Peter Duncanson [BrE] <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>So we can refer to a "steep road" but not a "gentle road" or a "mild
>road". Suitable phrases would be "a gently sloping road", "a mildly
>sloping road", a "road with a gentle slope" and "a road with a mild
>slope".
>
>I don't think "shallow" would work in EverydayE. It is the opposite of
>"deep" rather than "steep".

"A shallow slope" seems fine to me. But like the others, "shallow"
doesn't work with "road".

It's interesting that "shallow" does mean "unsteep" without some word
like "slope" or "incline", but nor is a generic disintensifier(?) like
"mild" or "gentle".

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

But that wasn't what you asked for.

That would be a gentle hill or a low hill.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:557d871f-a1d9-4427...@googlegroups.com...

I asked for the opposite of "steep". In other words, the adjective that
stands in relation to "steep" as "short" to "long", "narrow" to "wide",
"low" to "high", "shallow" to "deep", etc.

It's the sort of word that one might expect to exist in English, but it
simply doesn't as far as I can see. An odd lexical hole. (There's a
linguistic term for such things, but I can't remember it at the moment.)

--
Guy Barry

[Richard Tobin]

In article <k8p8x.652561$G53.1...@fx13.am4>,

Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>It's the sort of word that one might expect to exist in English, but it
>simply doesn't as far as I can see. An odd lexical hole. (There's a
>linguistic term for such things, but I can't remember it at the moment.)

Isn't "shallow" (in the sense of not deep) often given as an example
of something there isn't a French word for?

-- Richard

[Richard Yates]

"Low-angled"

Chiefly used in geology and, usually meaning less than 45 degrees, not
exactly applicable to roads, but at least it is (sort of) one word.

[Guy Barry]

"Richard Tobin" wrote in message news:mjt9p2$1eg2$2...@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk...

You would appear to be right. Google Translate gives the French translation
of "shallow" as "peu profond".

--
Guy Barry

[Peter T. Daniels]

And now you've changed it to "'steep,' said of a hill."

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

news:797d17f0-c539-449f...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 2:55:14 PM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

>> I asked for the opposite of "steep". In other words, the adjective that
>> stands in relation to "steep" as "short" to "long", "narrow" to "wide",
>> "low" to "high", "shallow" to "deep", etc.
>
>And now you've changed it to "'steep,' said of a hill."

I haven't changed it to anything. My intention was implicit in the original
post.

Instead of using this thread as an excuse for another argument, why not
discuss the substantive issue - the unusual semantic gap? (I've remembered
the linguistic term now.)

--
Guy Barry

[Katy Jennison]

If you're describing a route to someone cycling or walking, or even
driving, you could quite plausibly say "There's a steep hill as you come
down into the village, and then a gradual hill on your way out of it."

--
Katy Jennison

[David Kleinecke]

On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 2:36:31 PM UTC-7, Katy Jennison wrote:
> On 24/05/2015 19:06, Guy Barry wrote:
> > "HVS" wrote in message news:XnsA4A4A118...@178.63.61.145...
> >>
> >> On 24 May 2015, Guy Barry wrote
> >>
> >>> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> >>> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> >>> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
> >>>

Is it perhaps this lack of suitable word that makes so many people
use "a steep learning curve" in the sense opposite to what it actually
means?

[Robert Bannister]

It was one of the words that occurred to me. "Shallow slope/drop",
"shallow rise" may not be everyday English, but they do exist. I do
agree, however, that an opposite of "steep" not involving "slope",
"drop", "fall", "hill", etc. does seem impossible.

I was even more nonplussed when my first glance at the question brought
the "soak" meaning of "steep" to my mind.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

I would find it equally hard to think of an antonym for German "steil"
or French "raide". Did your non-native speaker say there was a word in
his/her own language?

[Jeff Urs]

Easy.

--
Jeff

[Richard Yates]

More likely they just equate equate steep as "hard to climb" and "hard
to learn."

[Peter Moylan]

They mean a curve that's steep if you plot time as a function of amount
learnt.

That's not how one would normally plot a learning curve, but I think
that's what is in their minds.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/05/15 10:58, Jeff Urs wrote:

> Easy.

If you know the answer, why not tell us?

[And I had to glance up to the subject line to make sure we were still
in the same thread.]

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:15:12 +0100, "Guy Barry"

<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's the
>opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there doesn't seem
>to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?

Yes, it seems to vary with what "steep" refers to.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Guy Barry]

"David Kleinecke" wrote in message
news:c35eab38-19ae-4a46...@googlegroups.com...

That had never occurred to me before. I suppose a "steep learning curve"
would literally be one where the student learns a lot in a short space of
time. What's the origin of the phrase?

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Robert Bannister" wrote in message
news:csf9b4...@mid.individual.net...

I didn't ask, but I'm seeing him today so I may do. He's native in both
Arabic and Finnish, so the answer might be interesting.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"David Kleinecke" wrote in message
news:c35eab38-19ae-4a46...@googlegroups.com...

>Is it perhaps this lack of suitable word that makes so many people
>use "a steep learning curve" in the sense opposite to what it actually
>means?

Wikipedia has a section on this:

"The expression _steep learning curve_ is used with opposite meanings. The
term is often used in common English with the meaning of a difficult initial
learning process. Nevertheless, the Oxford English Dictionary, The American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, and Merriam-Webster’s
Collegiate Dictionary define a learning curve as the rate at which skill is
acquired, so a steep increase would mean a quick increment of skill.

Arguably, the common English use is due to metaphorical interpretation of
the curve as a hill to climb. (A steeper hill is initially hard, while a
gentle slope is less strainful, though sometimes rather tedious.
Accordingly, the shape of the curve (hill) may not indicate the total amount
of work required. Instead, it can be understood as a matter of preference
related to ambition, personality and learning style.)

The term _learning curve_ with meanings of _easy_ and _difficult_ can be
described with adjectives like short and long rather than _steep_ and
_shallow_. If two products have similar functionality then the one with a
'steep' curve is probably better, because it can be learned in a shorter
time. On the other hand, if two products have different functionality, then
one with a short curve (a short time to learn) and limited functionality may
not be as good as one with a long curve (a long time to learn) and greater
functionality. [...]

Ben Zimmer discusses the use of the term 'ON a steep learning curve' in an
article "A Steep Learning Curve" for "Downton Abbey"—concentrating mainly on
whether it is an anachronism. [...] Zimmer also comments that the popular
use of _steep_ as _difficult_ is a reversal of the technical meaning. He
identifies the first use of _steep learning curve_ as 1973, and the
_arduous_ interpretation as 1978."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve#In_culture

Note, by the way, that the article uses "shallow" as an antonym of "steep".
Curiously, the COD doesn't list this meaning.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve

The first person to describe the learning curve was Hermann
Ebbinghaus in 1885, in the field of the psychology of learning,
although the name wasn't used until 1909.[1][2] In 1936, Theodore
Paul Wright described the effect of learning on production costs in
the aircraft industry.[3] This form, in which unit cost is plotted
against total production, is sometimes called an experience curve.

The familiar expression "a steep learning curve" is intended to mean
that the activity is difficult to learn, although a learning curve
with a steep start actually represents rapid progress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve#.22Steep_learning_curve.22

"Steep learning curve"

The expression steep learning curve is used with opposite meanings.

The term is often used in common English with the meaning of a

difficult initial learning process.[5][22] Nevertheless, the Oxford

English Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language, and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary define a
learning curve as the rate at which skill is acquired, so a steep
increase would mean a quick increment of skill.

I'm not sure that those two meanings are as opposite in sense as
suggested. If a lot was learned in a short time that can be because the
material was easy to learn, or it could be because the learner worked
hard at learning (metaphorically climbing a steep slope).

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/business-english/learning-curve

a huge/sharp/steep learning curve
› a situation in which someone has to learn a lot in a short period
of time:
"I'm on a steep learning curve in this new job."


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[pensive hamster]

On Monday, 25 May 2015 12:34:08 UTC+1, PeterWD wrote:
> "Guy Barry" wrote:
> >"David Kleinecke" wrote

Another consideration is that learning curves may have different
shapes, either concave (starting with a gentle slope and then
gradually becoming steeper), or convex (starting steeply and then
levelling off).

An example of the former might be learning Physics - relatively
easy at first (asssuming a degree of apptitude), and gradually
becoming more difficult as you get into topics like quantum
physics.

Learning to windsurf might be an example of the latter -
extremely difficult to make any progress at first, since you can't
even manage to stand upright on the thing. Once you have
mastered the basics, it becomes more a question of refining
technique, and the learning curve levels off.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Guy Barry:

To convince me it is a gap, first name a language that has the
word.

--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun

[Mark Brader]

Guy Barry:
> ...what's the opposite of "steep"?

"Forget to put the teabag in."
--
Mark Brader | "Life is mundane until it is not,
Toronto | and then the mundane can look serene."
m...@vex.net | --David Maraniss

[Robert Bannister]

You mean it means something? I just tune out as soon as I hear that.
Same with "begs the question". It's impossible to know whether the
speaker/writer knows what it means, so I assume it's just garbage.

[Robert Bannister]

On 25/05/2015 12:25 pm, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/05/15 10:58, Jeff Urs wrote:
>
>> Easy.
>
> If you know the answer, why not tell us?
>
> [And I had to glance up to the subject line to make sure we were still
> in the same thread.]
>

An easy slope sort of works, but really only if it comes after a
difficult climb, up or down. As with most of the other words, it doesn't
fit all that well with hill, although a hill walker or a cyclist would
certainly understand "easy hill" a lot more easily than they would
"shallow hill".

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 25 May 2015 09:32:42 +0100, "Guy Barry"
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Or the student is required to learn a lot in a short time.

I assume that the phrase comes from a graph where the amount to be
learnt is plotted on the vertical axis and the time in which to learn
it is on the horizontal axis.

[Snidely]

On Monday, Oliver Cromm queried:

> * Guy Barry:
>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>> news:797d17f0-c539-449f...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 2:55:14 PM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>> I asked for the opposite of "steep". In other words, the adjective that
>>>> stands in relation to "steep" as "short" to "long", "narrow" to "wide",
>>>> "low" to "high", "shallow" to "deep", etc.
>>>
>>> And now you've changed it to "'steep,' said of a hill."
>>
>> I haven't changed it to anything. My intention was implicit in the original
>> post.
>>
>> Instead of using this thread as an excuse for another argument, why not
>> discuss the substantive issue - the unusual semantic gap? (I've remembered
>> the linguistic term now.)
>
> To convince me it is a gap, first name a language that has the
> word.

If there is no such language, does that mean there is no gap?

The concept of something not steep is a very clear concept, and one
that matters to people (and horses and oxen) pulling loads up slopes.
So why do we have a single word for "steep", and not a single word for
not-steep?

However, I offer as a candidate, "easy". Did someone already try this
out, and I forgot already?

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

[Guy Barry]

"Oliver Cromm" wrote in message
news:19qxsp902royw$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info...
>
>* Guy Barry:

>> Instead of using this thread as an excuse for another argument, why not
>> discuss the substantive issue - the unusual semantic gap? (I've
>> remembered
>> the linguistic term now.)
>
>To convince me it is a gap, first name a language that has the
>word.

I can't. The only languages I know in any detail are French and German, and
I don't know an antonym for "steep" in either of them. Which makes the
omission even odder - it's hardly as though the concept is never required.

It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was giving - the
student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one with a
gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the opposite of
'steep'"? I didn't know, and we had to halt the tutorial for a couple of
minutes while he attempted to google the answer.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
news:6du7mata83m466hh2...@4ax.com...

>
>On Mon, 25 May 2015 09:32:42 +0100, "Guy Barry"
><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>>That had never occurred to me before. I suppose a "steep learning curve"
>>would literally be one where the student learns a lot in a short space of
>>time. What's the origin of the phrase?
>
>Or the student is required to learn a lot in a short time.
>
>I assume that the phrase comes from a graph where the amount to be
>learnt is plotted on the vertical axis and the time in which to learn
>it is on the horizontal axis.

But in that case the graph would fall rather than rise. If it fell steeply,
that would imply that the task was very easy - not how the phrase is
commonly used. There's an interesting point made here:

"The problem is that most people’s interpretation begins with the vertical
axis measuring mastery achieved (zero to begin with), but as they move along
the horizontal axis in time they unconsciously switch to its opposite:
remaining mastery needed (a lot, right away). This makes no sense. The line
needs to stand for the same variable along its whole length to make a
sensible chart."

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/steep.html

--
Guy Barry

[Ross]

[Jerry Friedman]

I'd have said "shallower" there.

Do you call that the gradient? In America we call it the slope.
"Gradient", in our math, means the slope of the steepest tangent (at a
given point) to a function of more than one variable.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Whiskers]

On 2015-05-24, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?

Of the adjective, there is no opposite; there are degrees of steepness
(from horizontal or flat to vertical or precipitous); "steep" without
further qualification falls somewhere in the middle of the range of
extremes. The adjective describes a slope; a slope with no steepness is
not a slope.

Of the verb, perhaps "to dry" or "to dessicate" might work as opposites
of "to steep"; but the only logical opposite of "to steep" is "to not
steep". Something that has been soaked (or merely dampened) and then
dried is not necessarily the same as that thing never allowed contact
with liquid at all; tea leaves coffee grounds and flour spring to mind.
Indeed the purpose of steeping is usually to impart some new quality to
the liquid; the thing that has been steeped is often discarded.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Oliver Cromm]

* Snidely:

> On Monday, Oliver Cromm queried:
>> * Guy Barry:
>>

>>> Instead of using this thread as an excuse for another argument, why not
>>> discuss the substantive issue - the unusual semantic gap? (I've remembered
>>> the linguistic term now.)
>>
>> To convince me it is a gap, first name a language that has the
>> word.
>
> If there is no such language, does that mean there is no gap?

No, but it is a hint that maybe it is not a problematic gap, that
the lack is not bothersome.

The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
heavy).

> The concept of something not steep is a very clear concept, and one
> that matters to people (and horses and oxen) pulling loads up slopes.

I would say that it is not very clear. At first, I wasn't sure if
flat or almost flat places were supposed to be included or not.
Assuming from the discussion that they are not, both the maximum
slope that does not yet count as steep and the minimum slope that
one would like to be included in the concept are quite vague and
dependent on circumstance. Maybe "not steep" is the best wording,
because the concept is purely a negative one: the absence of a
degree of incline that is problematic for the current goal.

--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.

[Guy Barry]

"Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:mk1stt$87l$1...@news.albasani.net...

>
>On 5/26/15 2:29 AM, Guy Barry wrote:

>> It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was giving -
>> the student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one
>> with a gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the
>> opposite of 'steep'"? I didn't know, and we had to halt the tutorial
>> for a couple of minutes while he attempted to google the answer.
>
>I'd have said "shallower" there.

In the end we settled on "more gradual". He's a native speaker of both
Arabic and Finnish, and I asked him today if there was an opposite of
"steep" in either of those languages. He couldn't think of one. Does *any*
language have a word for the concept?

>Do you call that the gradient? In America we call it the slope.
>"Gradient", in our math, means the slope of the steepest tangent (at a
>given point) to a function of more than one variable.

Can't you talk about the gradient of a straight line then? It's quite
standard here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/algebra/graphsrev4.shtml

The term "gradient" is also used in surveying, e.g. "this hill has a 1 in 5
gradient" (although on modern road signs it would appear as "20%").

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Whiskers" wrote in message
news:slrnmm90oq.g...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...

>
>On 2015-05-24, Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
>> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
>> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
>
>Of the adjective, there is no opposite; there are degrees of steepness
>(from horizontal or flat to vertical or precipitous); "steep" without
>further qualification falls somewhere in the middle of the range of
>extremes. The adjective describes a slope; a slope with no steepness is
>not a slope.

Yes it is. A road with a 1 in 100 gradient isn't steep, but it still has a
slope, albeit a very gentle one.

--
Guy Barry

[pensive hamster]

On Tuesday, 26 May 2015 17:49:35 UTC+1, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Whiskers" wrote

> > Guy Barry wrote:

> >> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> >> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> >> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
> >
> >Of the adjective, there is no opposite; there are degrees of steepness
> >(from horizontal or flat to vertical or precipitous); "steep" without
> >further qualification falls somewhere in the middle of the range of
> >extremes. The adjective describes a slope; a slope with no steepness is
> >not a slope.
>
> Yes it is. A road with a 1 in 100 gradient isn't steep, but it still has a
> slope, albeit a very gentle one.

But 'un-steep' would be a 'nothing to report' type of word,
so there is little demand for it. Few walkers would be moved
to say 'Goodness, this terrain is remarkably level and
undemanding.'

Whereas, if faced with with a steep hill, they might well be
prompted to say 'Cor, getting a bit steep, innit?'

[Guy Barry]

"pensive hamster" wrote in message
news:ebfdbeca-6e6e-4003...@googlegroups.com...

By that argument, there's no need for "shallow", because only deep water is
demanding.

Imagine the following context: you've been walking up a lot of steep hills,
and you're tired. Someone suggests another hill walk, and you say "I'd
prefer one that's a bit more... [?]"

--
Guy Barry

[charles]

In article <_o39x.664119$G53.2...@fx13.am4>, Guy Barry

<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "pensive hamster" wrote in message
> news:ebfdbeca-6e6e-4003...@googlegroups.com...
> >
> >On Tuesday, 26 May 2015 17:49:35 UTC+1, Guy Barry wrote:
> >> "Whiskers" wrote
> >> > Guy Barry wrote:
> >
> >> >> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer:
> >> >> what's the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and
> >> >> there doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"?
> >> >> "Shallow"?
> >> >
> >> >Of the adjective, there is no opposite; there are degrees of
> >> >steepness (from horizontal or flat to vertical or precipitous);
> >> >"steep" without further qualification falls somewhere in the middle
> >> >of the range of extremes. The adjective describes a slope; a slope
> >> >with no steepness is not a slope.
> >>
> >> Yes it is. A road with a 1 in 100 gradient isn't steep, but it still
> >> has a slope, albeit a very gentle one.
> >
> >But 'un-steep' would be a 'nothing to report' type of word, so there is
> >little demand for it. Few walkers would be moved to say 'Goodness, this
> >terrain is remarkably level and undemanding.'
> >
> >Whereas, if faced with with a steep hill, they might well be prompted to
> >say 'Cor, getting a bit steep, innit?'

> By that argument, there's no need for "shallow", because only deep water
> is demanding.

not if you are diving in

> Imagine the following context: you've been walking up a lot of steep
> hills, and you're tired. Someone suggests another hill walk, and you
> say "I'd prefer one that's a bit more... [?]"

or " ... one that's a bit less ....[?]"

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Richard Tobin]

In article <slrnmm90oq.g...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,

Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

>Of the adjective, there is no opposite; there are degrees of steepness
>(from horizontal or flat to vertical or precipitous); "steep" without
>further qualification falls somewhere in the middle of the range of
>extremes. The adjective describes a slope; a slope with no steepness is
>not a slope.

You might as well say that a height that isn't high isn't a height,
yet a dwarf still has a height, and we have an opposite "short".

-- Richard

[Isabelle C]

Le 26/05/2015 21:00, Guy Barry a écrit :
[...]

> Imagine the following context: you've been walking up a lot of steep hills,
> and you're tired. Someone suggests another hill walk, and you say "I'd
> prefer one that's a bit more... [?]"

Forgiving?


--
Isabelle

[Lanarcam]

Gentle?

Considerate?

Soft?

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 9:21:20 AM UTC-7, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> Assuming from the discussion that they are not, both the maximum
> slope that does not yet count as steep and the minimum slope that
> one would like to be included in the concept are quite vague and
> dependent on circumstance.

And the minimum slope that counts as "steep" isn't vague?

/dps

[Richard Tobin]

In article <_o39x.664119$G53.2...@fx13.am4>,
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Imagine the following context: you've been walking up a lot of steep hills,
>and you're tired. Someone suggests another hill walk, and you say "I'd
>prefer one that's a bit more... [?]"

Flat.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 12:21:20 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
> heavy).

What word is it? (And how would I look for it in an English-German dictionary?)

[Lanarcam]

hungry > hungrig
antonym > Gegensatz

http://gegensatz-von.com/hungrig.html

satt

[pensive hamster]

On Tuesday, 26 May 2015 20:00:13 UTC+1, Guy Barry wrote:
> "pensive hamster" wrote

> >But 'un-steep' would be a 'nothing to report' type of word,
> >so there is little demand for it. Few walkers would be moved
> >to say 'Goodness, this terrain is remarkably level and
> >undemanding.'
> >
> >Whereas, if faced with with a steep hill, they might well be
> >prompted to say 'Cor, getting a bit steep, innit?'
>
> By that argument, there's no need for "shallow", because only deep water is
> demanding.

Shallow water is quite demanding, if you are navigating a ship
or a boat.

> Imagine the following context: you've been walking up a lot of steep hills,
> and you're tired. Someone suggests another hill walk, and you say "I'd
> prefer one that's a bit more... [?]"

'... a bit more tomorrow?'

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

In BrE the noun is used as follows:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gradient

gradient

noun
1 An inclined part of a road or railway; a slope:
"fail-safe brakes for use on steep gradients"

1.1 The degree of a slope:
"the path becomes very rough as the gradient increases"

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Oliver Cromm]

* snide...@gmail.com:

No, it's exactly the maximum slope that does not yet count as
steep + 1/∞.

OK, maybe your point is that "steep" is equally vague to begin
with. Probably, yes. I was just refuting one argument in favor of
a separate word for "non-steep", an argument that "steep" doesn't
need because it already exists.

The important difference between "steep" and "non-steep" is
probably, as others have pointed out, that one is notable, the
other much less so, or as I have put it, the notable thing about a
slope that isn't steep is the absence of steepness rather than the
presence of non-steepness.

All that time I'm wondering if this has something to do with
non-white non-ravens, but I'm not convinced yet.

--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Which word are you asking for?

"Not hungry" is "satt". You can find it as one of the translations
of of "full"; how you would recognize it depends on the
dictionary.

"Satt" is related to "satisfied" and "saturated", and indeed, it
can also refer to saturated colors and other things. I was
polemicizing when I pretended words usually have only one meaning.
But the first meaning that comes to mind out of context is "not
hungry", "full", whereas for "full", without context, "having had
enough to eat" is not the first meaning that comes to mind.

--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?

[Oliver Cromm]

* Oliver Cromm:

> "Satt" is related to "satisfied" and "saturated",

... and, of course, "sated", which would be its closest cognate.

It seems that the modern meaning is crossed-over:
"satt" = "full", "voll" = "sated".

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945

[Robert Bannister]

And the false friend is "voll" (full) which can mean "drunk". I have
heard it used, however, to mean "overeaten".

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

That one is definitely "easier" or "gentler". So, not a problem in this
particular case. With technical drawing mentioned in another post, I
would have gone for "shallower". "More gradual" has a wider application.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 5:57:10 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 12:21:20 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> >> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
> >> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
> >> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
> >> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
> >> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
> >> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
> >> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
> >> heavy).
> > What word is it? (And how would I look for it in an English-German dictionary?)
>
> Which word are you asking for?
>
> "Not hungry" is "satt". You can find it as one of the translations
> of of "full"; how you would recognize it depends on the
> dictionary.

Oh. I would render that as "satisfied" or "satiated." (But not "sated.")

> "Satt" is related to "satisfied" and "saturated", and indeed, it
> can also refer to saturated colors and other things. I was
> polemicizing when I pretended words usually have only one meaning.
> But the first meaning that comes to mind out of context is "not
> hungry", "full", whereas for "full", without context, "having had
> enough to eat" is not the first meaning that comes to mind.

True.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <lHo8x.634273$1B6.5...@fx08.am4>,
"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> "Horace LaBadie" wrote in message
> news:hlabadie-08B7E3...@nntp.aioe.org...
> >
> >In article <Wqo8x.506464$Ox2.4...@fx23.am4>,

> > "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "HVS" wrote in message news:XnsA4A4A118...@178.63.61.145...
> >> >

> >> >On 24 May 2015, Guy Barry wrote

> >> >
> >> >> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's
> >> >> the opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there
> >> >> doesn't seem to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
> >> >>

> >> >For "steep as in slope" (rather than tea or prices), "gradual" comes to
> >> >mind.
> >>
> >> That was the best that I could come up with. But the opposite of "a
> >> steep
> >> hill" isn't "a gradual hill". It's "a gradually sloping hill".
> >
> >It's a gradual incline.
>
> Indeed it is. My point is that there's no single adjective you can apply to
> "hill" to convey the meaning of "a gradual incline" - as far as I know.

How is a sheet of paper like a lazy dog?






A sheet of paper is an ink lined plane

An ink lined plane is a slope up

A slow pup is a lazy dog

--
chrles

[Traddict]

"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
de discussion : 5t19x.842540$3i4.1...@fx29.am4...

> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:mk1stt$87l$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>On 5/26/15 2:29 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>> It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was giving -
>>> the student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one
>>> with a gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the
>>> opposite of 'steep'"?

In that case, the answer could clearly have been "acute". "Acute" seems the
best equivalent of "non-steep", although "an acute slope" is a hypallage in
that the angle of the slope is acute, not the slope proper. For instance, as
"steep learning curves" have been mentioned in this thread, googling "acute
learning curve" returns countless hits.

[Guy Barry]

"Traddict" wrote in message news:5565464b$0$3178$426a...@news.free.fr...

>
>
>
>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
>de discussion : 5t19x.842540$3i4.1...@fx29.am4...
>> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:mk1stt$87l$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>>On 5/26/15 2:29 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>>> It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was
>>>> giving -
>>>> the student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one
>>>> with a gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the
>>>> opposite of 'steep'"?
>
>In that case, the answer could clearly have been "acute". "Acute" seems the
>best equivalent of "non-steep", although "an acute slope" is a hypallage in
>that the angle of the slope is acute, not the slope proper.

A steep slope also forms an acute angle with the horizontal. However steep
the slope, the angle can't be more than 90 degrees (which would be
vertical).

>For instance, as "steep learning curves" have been mentioned in this
>thread, googling "acute learning curve" returns countless hits.

If I put "acute learning curve" without quotes in the search box, none of
the first page of hits contains the phrase. That suggests that it isn't
very common.

--
Guy Barry

[Mark Brader]

Jerry Friedman:

>> Do you call that the gradient? In America we call it the slope.
>> "Gradient", in our math, means the slope of the steepest tangent (at a
>> given point) to a function of more than one variable.

Guy Barry:

> Can't you talk about the gradient of a straight line then? It's quite
> standard here:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/algebra/graphsrev4.shtml

Interesting.

No, we can't, or not the way I learned it anyway.

> The term "gradient" is also used in surveying, e.g. "this hill has a 1 in 5
> gradient" (although on modern road signs it would appear as "20%").

"Gradient" in this sense is familiar to me, but maybe from British
sources. ("1 in 5" instead of "20%" is definitely British.) In North
America the word is often "grade" instead:

http://trikeasylum.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/six-percent-grade-sign.jpg?w=640

For that matter, "slope" is also possible here, but it's not the
usual usage in engineering-type contexts where people are talking
about the exact measurement.


For me, the mathematical "slope" relates to x and y axes, not to
horizontal and vertical, and if it's not infinite, it's written as
a simple number, thus 1/5 or 0.2 rather than 20% (though of course
all three expressions mean the same thing).
--
Mark Brader "How diabolically clever: a straightforward message!
Toronto Only a genius could have thought of that."
m...@vex.net -- Maxwell Smart (Agent 86)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:

> How is a sheet of paper like a lazy dog?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A sheet of paper is an ink lined plane
>
> An ink lined plane is a slope up
>
> A slow pup is a lazy dog

No, an ink-lined plane.
--
Mark Brader | "I couldn't imagine what Americans did at night
Toronto | when they weren't writing novels."
m...@vex.net | --Joseph Heller

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/05/15 02:21, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> English gets by even without a proper antonym for "hungry"

Sated.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Richard Tobin]

In article <0I-dnSX8mJJQFfjI...@vex.net>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Jerry Friedman:
>>> Do you call that the gradient? In America we call it the slope.
>>> "Gradient", in our math, means the slope of the steepest tangent (at a
>>> given point) to a function of more than one variable.

>Guy Barry:
>> Can't you talk about the gradient of a straight line then? It's quite
>> standard here:
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/algebra/graphsrev4.shtml

>Interesting.
>
>No, we can't, or not the way I learned it anyway.

The gradient operator, commonly called grad and written as un
upside-down capital delta, is indeed the vector representing the
steepest tangent. But that is just a generalization of the
single-variable case.

From the OED's quotations, it seems to have been first used for the
slope of railway lines.

-- Richard

[CDB]

On 27/05/2015 6:10 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Oliver Cromm wrote:

>> English gets by even without a proper antonym for "hungry"

> Sated.

Or "suffonsified". In my great-grandmother's jocular usage,
"sufficiently suffonsified". I always connect it with the Victorian
phrase "elegant sufficiency" ("No, thank you, I have had an").

Says here it's Canadian.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suffonsified

[Traddict]

"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe

de discussion : yXd9x.844028$3i4.2...@fx29.am4...

> "Traddict" wrote in message news:5565464b$0$3178$426a...@news.free.fr...
>>
>>
>>
>>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
>>de discussion : 5t19x.842540$3i4.1...@fx29.am4...
>>> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message
>>> news:mk1stt$87l$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>>On 5/26/15 2:29 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was
>>>>> giving -
>>>>> the student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one
>>>>> with a gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the
>>>>> opposite of 'steep'"?
>>
>>In that case, the answer could clearly have been "acute". "Acute" seems
>>the best equivalent of "non-steep", although "an acute slope" is a
>>hypallage in that the angle of the slope is acute, not the slope proper.
>
> A steep slope also forms an acute angle with the horizontal. However
> steep the slope, the angle can't be more than 90 degrees (which would be
> vertical).

I know, and in the absolute,"acute" would indeed be a misnomer, but it is
apparently often used in that sense, maybe because it meets intuition.

>
>>For instance, as "steep learning curves" have been mentioned in this
>>thread, googling "acute learning curve" returns countless hits.
>
> If I put "acute learning curve" without quotes in the search box, none of
> the first page of hits contains the phrase. That suggests that it isn't
> very common.

The same search with quotes returns 11,700 hits, which is far from
negligible.

>
> --
> Guy Barry

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/05/15 21:17, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <0I-dnSX8mJJQFfjI...@vex.net>,
> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman:
>>>> Do you call that the gradient? In America we call it the slope.
>>>> "Gradient", in our math, means the slope of the steepest tangent (at a
>>>> given point) to a function of more than one variable.
>
>> Guy Barry:
>>> Can't you talk about the gradient of a straight line then? It's quite
>>> standard here:
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/algebra/graphsrev4.shtml
>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> No, we can't, or not the way I learned it anyway.
>
> The gradient operator, commonly called grad and written as un
> upside-down capital delta, is indeed the vector representing the
> steepest tangent. But that is just a generalization of the
> single-variable case.

We usually think of grad as operating on a function of three space
variables, but it's immediately obvious how to define gradient (and also
the divergence, although curl is slightly trickier) in N-space, for any
positive integer N. The case N=1 is just one case of this.

I can't remember precisely what I was told in school about the
definition of "gradient", but I'm sure that I would have thought that if
it works for N=2 then it should also work for N=1.

[Cheryl]

It must come from some other part of Canada. I've never come across it
before.

Cheryl

[Jerry Friedman]

Sure, which is why I knew what Guy meant, but IME we always call that
the slope in school. The reason may be that it's taught to most kids by
their early teens (I'm not sure of the exact age), and most of them
aren't going to study vector calculus, so they might as well use a
familiar word.

(Then the books spoil it by defining slope as "rise over run", as if
every thirteen-year-old were a carpenter.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/26/15 10:21 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Snidely:
>
>> On Monday, Oliver Cromm queried:
>>> * Guy Barry:
>>>
>>>> Instead of using this thread as an excuse for another argument, why not
>>>> discuss the substantive issue - the unusual semantic gap? (I've remembered
>>>> the linguistic term now.)
>>>
>>> To convince me it is a gap, first name a language that has the
>>> word.
>>
>> If there is no such language, does that mean there is no gap?
>
> No, but it is a hint that maybe it is not a problematic gap, that
> the lack is not bothersome.

>
> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
> heavy).

I suppose you don't consider modern American English "fine" and "good"
to be proper antonyms.

"Do you want anything to eat?"

"No thanks, I'm fine."

(Is that where you'd use the German antonym? I guess the other place I
can think of is "We'll be able to talk about this a lot more sensibly
when we're not hungry.")

>> The concept of something not steep is a very clear concept, and one
>> that matters to people (and horses and oxen) pulling loads up slopes.
>
> I would say that it is not very clear. At first, I wasn't sure if
> flat or almost flat places were supposed to be included or not.

> Assuming from the discussion that they are not, both the maximum
> slope that does not yet count as steep and the minimum slope that
> one would like to be included in the concept are quite vague and

> dependent on circumstance. Maybe "not steep" is the best wording,
> because the concept is purely a negative one: the absence of a
> degree of incline that is problematic for the current goal.
...

Or "less steep". "Switchbacks make the road less steep but longer."
"That way is less steep, but there's more bushwacking."


--
Jerry Friedman

[pensive hamster]

On Wednesday, 27 May 2015 07:59:45 UTC+1, Guy Barry wrote:
[...]

> A steep slope also forms an acute angle with the horizontal. However steep
> the slope, the angle can't be more than 90 degrees (which would be
> vertical).

Can be more than 90 degrees. In mountaineering, there are
over-hanging ledges. There is a technical term for them, which
I can't remember. A bit like climbing up into the roof of a cave.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Jerry Friedman:

> On 5/26/15 10:21 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:

>> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
>> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
>> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
>> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
>> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
>> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
>> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
>> heavy).
>
> I suppose you don't consider modern American English "fine" and "good"
> to be proper antonyms.
>
> "Do you want anything to eat?"
>
> "No thanks, I'm fine."

No, I wouldn't even interpret that as meaning "I'm not hungry". It
means that you don't want to receive any food from that person at
that time for whatever reason. Maybe you're dieting, maybe you
don't expect to like their food, or maybe you don't want to be
eating in the particular situation.

> (Is that where you'd use the German antonym?

The not-hungry phrase more commonly comes into play when the
question is "Want some more?" or "How about dessert?"

> I guess the other place I
> can think of is "We'll be able to talk about this a lot more sensibly
> when we're not hungry.")

I think in this case I would stick with "not hungry".

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

[Guy Barry]

"Traddict" wrote in message news:5565b120$0$3351$426a...@news.free.fr...

>
>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
>de discussion : yXd9x.844028$3i4.2...@fx29.am4...

>> If I put "acute learning curve" without quotes in the search box, none of
>> the first page of hits contains the phrase. That suggests that it isn't
>> very common.
>
>The same search with quotes returns 11,700 hits, which is far from
>negligible.

I think it's generally accepted that such numbers are meaningless, but for
what it's worth searching for "steep learning curve" (without quotes) yields
about 2,250,000 results.

--
Guy Barry

[snide...@gmail.com]

I learned from my aunt, Oregon via Toledo OH and Brooklyn NYC, that
"my sufficiency has been surrensified".
(spelling of the key word based on sound)

I brought that up here (AUE) a couple of years ago, and IIRC no one then
clued me into suffonsified.

/dps

[snide...@gmail.com]

Oliver Cromm provided this sig on which to riff:

> Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

the riff being,
"Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his eraser."

/dps "easy to entertain"

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/27/15 10:32 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On 5/26/15 10:21 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>>> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
>>> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
>>> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
>>> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
>>> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
>>> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
>>> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
>>> heavy).
>>
>> I suppose you don't consider modern American English "fine" and "good"
>> to be proper antonyms.
>>
>> "Do you want anything to eat?"
>>
>> "No thanks, I'm fine."
>
> No, I wouldn't even interpret that as meaning "I'm not hungry". It
> means that you don't want to receive any food from that person at
> that time for whatever reason. Maybe you're dieting, maybe you
> don't expect to like their food, or maybe you don't want to be
> eating in the particular situation.

Well, it's a polite formalism, as Eric said, whose literal meaning is
something like "I'm not hungry" though it's used in the situations you
describe.

>> (Is that where you'd use the German antonym?
>
> The not-hungry phrase more commonly comes into play when the
> question is "Want some more?" or "How about dessert?"

You can say "I'm fine" there in English.

>> I guess the other place I
>> can think of is "We'll be able to talk about this a lot more sensibly
>> when we're not hungry.")
>
> I think in this case I would stick with "not hungry".

That is, even in German you'd say something like "when we don't have
hunger"?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Charles Bishop]

In article <1bmfqeb5lbyy2$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Jerry Friedman:
>
> > On 5/26/15 10:21 AM, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
> >> The classic case of a missing antonym often discussed in German is
> >> that there is an antonym of "hungry", but none of "thirsty". There
> >> have been numerous proposals to fill this gap, but none is being
> >> picked up. People simply don't need this word, they are quite fine
> >> with "not thirsty". English gets by even without a proper antonym
> >> for "hungry" (or so it seems to me, because the German equivalent
> >> of "full" describes the feeling of having eaten too much, or too
> >> heavy).
> >
> > I suppose you don't consider modern American English "fine" and "good"
> > to be proper antonyms.
> >
> > "Do you want anything to eat?"
> >
> > "No thanks, I'm fine."
>
> No, I wouldn't even interpret that as meaning "I'm not hungry". It
> means that you don't want to receive any food from that person at
> that time for whatever reason. Maybe you're dieting, maybe you
> don't expect to like their food, or maybe you don't want to be
> eating in the particular situation.

For me it means I don't want any food at this time, for whatever reason.
Later, I may want something to eat and would be willing to accept it
from the unnamed offerer.

It might mean that I was hungry, but was dieting, as you say.

[snip]

--
charles

[CDB]

On 27/05/2015 2:30 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Oliver Cromm wrote:

>>>> English gets by even without a proper antonym for "hungry"

>>> Sated.

>> Or "suffonsified". In my great-grandmother's jocular usage,
>> "sufficiently suffonsified". I always connect it with the
>> Victorian phrase "elegant sufficiency" ("No, thank you, I have had
>> an").

>> Says here it's Canadian.

>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suffonsified

> I learned from my aunt, Oregon via Toledo OH and Brooklyn NYC, that
> "my sufficiency has been surrensified". (spelling of the key word
> based on sound)

> I brought that up here (AUE) a couple of years ago, and IIRC no one
> then clued me into suffonsified.

Strange. In those days I hardly shut up.

[Oliver Cromm]

* CDB:

And indeed, you answered mentioning suffonsified (and Mark B.,
suffunctified):

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/CGwkQYsncqY>

--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?

[Snidely]

Oliver Cromm suggested that ...

Oh, crap. I can't even remember my own threads.

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

[Snidely]

Snidely submitted this gripping article, maybe on Thursday:

And, alas, only one of the Kliban links is still active. Time for some
Google Images stuff:

<URL:http://bewarethebibliophilia.tumblr.com/post/93229450542/genghis-sylvia-khan-by-b-kliban-from-his>
<URL:https://www.pinterest.com/pin/202099101998558947/>

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

[Oliver Cromm]

* Traddict:

> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
> de discussion : yXd9x.844028$3i4.2...@fx29.am4...
>> "Traddict" wrote in message news:5565464b$0$3178$426a...@news.free.fr...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
>>>de discussion : 5t19x.842540$3i4.1...@fx29.am4...
>>>> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message
>>>> news:mk1stt$87l$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>On 5/26/15 2:29 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It actually arose in the context of a maths tutorial that I was
>>>>>> giving -
>>>>>> the student drew a line with a gradient of 4 and then had to draw one
>>>>>> with a gradient of 2, saying "this one has to be more... what's the
>>>>>> opposite of 'steep'"?
>>>
>>>In that case, the answer could clearly have been "acute". "Acute" seems
>>>the best equivalent of "non-steep", although "an acute slope" is a
>>>hypallage in that the angle of the slope is acute, not the slope proper.
>>
>> A steep slope also forms an acute angle with the horizontal. However
>> steep the slope, the angle can't be more than 90 degrees (which would be
>> vertical).
>
> I know, and in the absolute,"acute" would indeed be a misnomer, but it is
> apparently often used in that sense, maybe because it meets intuition.

Yes, mathematically, a thing is acute or not, but in everyday
life, "acute" can mean "more acute than the other".

However, not being used to this usage, I would imagine "acute"
(meaning "sharp") to be something strong or sudden, so it would
fit a very steep slope better than a not so steep one.

--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.

[Mark Brader]

C.D. Bellemare:

> Or "suffonsified". In my great-grandmother's jocular usage,
> "sufficiently suffonsified".

In my wife's family (in Toronto), "sufficiently suffunctified".
--
Mark Brader | "...he entertained the notion that I was cribbing from
Toronto | other [students' exams] until it was pointed out that
m...@vex.net | I often had the only correct answer..." --Lars Eighner

[Mark Brader]

Jerry Friedman:

> Sure, which is why I knew what Guy meant, but IME we always call that
> the slope in school. The reason may be that it's taught to most kids by
> their early teens (I'm not sure of the exact age), and most of them
> aren't going to study vector calculus, so they might as well use a
> familiar word.
>
> (Then the books spoil it by defining slope as "rise over run", as if
> every thirteen-year-old were a carpenter.)

In my case, they didn't, but one of my teachers who introduced that
phrase when talking about slopes, and it stuck with me.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Let us knot coin gnu werds huitch
m...@vex.net are spelld rong." -- Rik Fischer Smoody

[Traddict]

"Oliver Cromm" <lispa...@crommatograph.info> a écrit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : 1f3j1ef0omw5a$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info...

Indeed, that's another instance of conflicting lexical fields and it seems
the two, contradictory, uses are possible.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-05-30 18:46:53 +0000, Mark Brader said:

> Jerry Friedman:
>> Sure, which is why I knew what Guy meant, but IME we always call that
>> the slope in school. The reason may be that it's taught to most kids by
>> their early teens (I'm not sure of the exact age), and most of them
>> aren't going to study vector calculus, so they might as well use a
>> familiar word.
>>
>> (Then the books spoil it by defining slope as "rise over run", as if
>> every thirteen-year-old were a carpenter.)
>
> In my case, they didn't, but one of my teachers who introduced that
> phrase when talking about slopes, and it stuck with me.

I haven't been following this thread very carefully, so maybe some has
said this already, but it seems to me that the almost universal
opposite of "steep slope" is "gentle slope". Of course, this doesn't
work for other meanings of "steep": "*that's a bit gentle"; "*you need
to gentle the tea bag in hot water for a minute"; etc.

--
athel

[Robert Bannister]

I think the soaking thing is a totally different idea, but I agree that
one doesn't come across "a gentle cliff" very often.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Helen Lacedaemonian]

On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 4:15:15 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's the
> opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there doesn't seem
> to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?

98 messages and no one thought of "moderate"?

Around here, hills, climbs, and trails are categorized as steep, moderate, or easy.

The beauty of it is, "moderate" works for prices too. Though these days they're all steep.

Best,
Helen

[swb...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> A simple question, but apparently one without a simple answer: what's the
> opposite of "steep"? Someone asked me the other day and there doesn't seem
> to be a specific antonym. "Gentle"? "Mild"? "Shallow"?
>

> --
> Guy Barry

"Flat" is the opposite of steep.