Sugarfoot

[John Holmes]

Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot" in
the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics, band
names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <55744b54$1...@news.ausics.net>,

"John Holmes" <jh...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot" in
> the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics, band
> names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.

I always associate it with tenderfoot, because of the Western series
Sugarfoot that starred Will Hutchins.

[John Holmes]

A lot of the google hits are connected with that, but that is late
fifties, not 1920s and not New Orleans or thereabouts. This is probably
one of the better-known tunes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-AHLE29a7U
(vocal starts at 1:30)

[CDB]

On 07/06/2015 10:15 AM, John Holmes wrote:

> Horace LaBadie wrote:
>> "John Holmes" <jh...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>>> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word
>>> "sugarfoot" in the context of early jazz music? It appears in
>>> song titles, lyrics, band names and as a nickname. Google didn't
>>> seem to be much help.

>> I always associate it with tenderfoot, because of the Western
>> series Sugarfoot that starred Will Hutchins.

> A lot of the google hits are connected with that, but that is late
> fifties, not 1920s and not New Orleans or thereabouts. This is
> probably one of the better-known tunes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-AHLE29a7U (vocal starts at 1:30)

The Wparticle on the series says its hero was called "sugarfoot", as if
it were a recognised term, because he lacked the skills and temperament
of a cowboy and even more those of a sheriff. In rag context, maybe
someone who dances daintily? Stiffly?

I kept thinking of waitresses (heah ya go, sugah), but that might have
been the cymbals sounding like a cup and saucer.

[James Hogg]

John Holmes wrote:
> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot" in
> the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics, band
> names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.
>

It's not in the OED except in a quotation under "shag":

1938 Sun (Baltimore) 24 June 4/3 The Virginia reel, the shag, the
sugarfoot and trucking predominate on the dance program.

--
James

[R H Draney]

CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote in news:ml1lai$gs1$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

>> Horace LaBadie wrote:
>>> "John Holmes" <jh...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>>> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word
>>>> "sugarfoot" in the context of early jazz music? It appears in
>>>> song titles, lyrics, band names and as a nickname. Google didn't
>>>> seem to be much help.
>
>>> I always associate it with tenderfoot, because of the Western
>>> series Sugarfoot that starred Will Hutchins.
>

> The Wparticle on the series says its hero was called "sugarfoot", as if
> it were a recognised term, because he lacked the skills and temperament
> of a cowboy and even more those of a sheriff. In rag context, maybe
> someone who dances daintily? Stiffly?

My mother had a toe amputated because of an infection that was exacerbated
by diabetes....r

[James Hogg]

And as two words:

1926 in R. S. Gold Jazz Lexicon (1964) 297 When they start
dancin'—Stompin and prancin'—the dance called the sugar foot stomp.

Try it for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L90gA2p55Rs

--
James

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:19:36 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

There are variations called "Sugar Foot line dance":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN8OvFDHfck

"SUGARFOOT REVISITED" LINE DANCE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFmxhIrfC9E

etc.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[James Hogg]

See under "shag" in this book:

https://books.google.se/books?id=2inCRlYF-iAC&pg=PA145#v=onepage&q&f=false

--
James

[HVS]

On 07 Jun 2015, John Holmes wrote

> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot" in
> the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics, band
> names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.
>

I can't say, but my guess is that -- like every other jazz term -- it must
refer either to sex, or to drugs.....

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Charles Bishop]

In article <55744b54$1...@news.ausics.net>,
"John Holmes" <jh...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot" in
> the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics, band
> names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.

Don't have any info for you on that, but in cowboy literature,
"sugarfoot" was an appellation given to a horse, now and then. I always
assumed it meant "sure footed" (from the context) but now that I think
on it, there could have been alternative meanings.

A quick Google shows there are dance steps with Sugarfoot in the title -
Sugarfoot Stomp, Sugar Foot Strut. "Sugarfoot Stomp is very much an
early recorded jazz repertory performance. . ."

--
charles

[Helen Lacedaemonian]

From a blog post discussing the 1951 movie:

"Scott plays Jackson Redan, a Southerner who goes West after the Civil War. He's soon nicknamed 'Sugarfoot' due to his courtly manners and his status as a tenderfoot who has much to learn about the West."

Source: http://www.laurasmiscmusings.blogspot.com/2015/01/tonights-movie-sugarfoot-1951.html

Some of the taglines from the film take a different tack:

"Here's that Sugarfoot man---with manners as mild as molasses--and the fastest trigger-finger in the land!"

"THAT SLOW-TALKIN', FAST-SHOOTIN' HERO OF A HUNDRED CELEBRATED ADVENTURES!"

"..and when that Sugarfoot-man came ridin'...the desperados they went hidin'..."


And I should add that the urbandictionary page is worth looking at. Many interesting definitions. For instance, this one:

Sugarfoot

From the term, 'best foot forward'. A person's best foot or favourite foot.

An athlete's best or preferred foot, either as a lead/front foot or a back foot that allows for optimal performance.
"Tomorrow's your first day of work. Sugar foot in there. You'll do well."

"That mid-fielder kicked with his left foot, and nearly put the ball past the goalie. That's not usually his sugar foot."

"I got a right sugar foot. I jump higher and run faster with it because it pushes harder than my left."


Best,
Helen

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:43:19 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>

Right. So the "shag" which was invented by Arthur Murray as a version of
the "flea-hop" (New Jersey) or "sugar foot" (North Carolina) was popular
in the late 1930s.

[Peter Moylan]

You're not supposed to do that on the dance floor. You go outside and
have a shag on a rock.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:07:34 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 08/06/15 01:17, James Hogg wrote:
>> John Holmes wrote:
>>> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot"
>>> in the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics,
>>> band names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.
>>>
>> It's not in the OED except in a quotation under "shag":
>>
>> 1938 Sun (Baltimore) 24 June 4/3 The Virginia reel, the shag, the
>> sugarfoot and trucking predominate on the dance program.
>
>You're not supposed to do that on the dance floor. You go outside and
>have a shag on a rock.

Or a haystack.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Steve Hayes skrev:

>>> 1938 Sun (Baltimore) 24 June 4/3 The Virginia reel, the
>>> shag, the sugarfoot and trucking predominate on the dance
>>> program.

>> You're not supposed to do that on the dance floor. You go
>> outside and have a shag on a rock.

> Or a haystack.

Is that then a hayshag?

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[CDB]

On 07/06/2015 11:17 AM, R H Draney wrote:

Type 2 wasn't widespread back then, though. As late as the 1980s, my
own dear mother thought sugar and crisco were food groups.

[CDB]

On 07/06/2015 12:14 PM, Helen Lacedaemonian wrote:

Thanks. Those all seem roughly compatible with accusations of
daintiness, in the light of your "best foot forward".

[Steve Hayes]

As in the Ball of Kerrymuir.

[CDB]

On 08/06/2015 11:40 AM, Lewis wrote:

> The rise of Type 2 diabetes sure seems to track with the rise of
> HFCS.

> For example, Mexico used to have a fairly low incidence of Type II,
> but after they started getting a lot more processed food with HFCS in
> them, the rate sky rocketed.

> I suspect that sugar itself is not the problem, its the kinds of
> sugars.

I put honey in my tea, but I know it's an empty gesture (apart from the
taste).

I suspect we'll be learning lots more real soon, what with sugar being
the new cholesterol.

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/06/15 15:18, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jun 2015 10:42:36 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes skrev:
>>
>>>>> 1938 Sun (Baltimore) 24 June 4/3 The Virginia reel, the
>>>>> shag, the sugarfoot and trucking predominate on the dance
>>>>> program.
>>
>>>> You're not supposed to do that on the dance floor. You go
>>>> outside and have a shag on a rock.
>>
>>> Or a haystack.
>>
>> Is that then a hayshag?
>
> As in the Ball of Kerrymuir.

There's something about that song that's always bothered me. The version
I know begins with

Four and twenty virgins
Went to Inverness
And when the ball was over
There were four and twenty less.

Google Maps assures me, however, that Kirriemuir is nowhere near
Inverness. Has there been some sort of merging of two different songs,
about two different balls?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-06-08 17:40:38 +0200, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <ml3rbd$ds9$1...@speranza.aioe.org>

> The rise of Type 2 diabetes sure seems to track with the rise of HFCS.
>
> For example, Mexico used to have a fairly low incidence of Type II, but
> after they started getting a lot more processed food with HFCS in them,
> the rate sky rocketed.
>
> I suspect that sugar itself is not the problem, its the kinds of sugars.

It's both. Fructose is much worse than glucose, but you wouldn't want
to stuff yourself with glucose either (especially as it's much less
sweet than fructose, so you'd probably consume a lot more to arrive at
the same degree of sweetness).

--
athel

[musika]

The version I know is:
Four and twenty virgins
Came down from Inverness
--
Ray
UK

[Steve Hayes]

The thing that always bothered me about that verse was the "less", but
I suppse "fewer" wouldn't scan.

In the version I heard it was

Four and twenty virgins came down from Inverness

to wherever it was the ball was held.

[Dr Nick]

"Came down" when I was in scouts.

[James Hogg]

Pedants prefer:

Four and twenty virgins came down to Kerrymuir
And when the ball was over there were four and twenty fewer.

--
James

[Peter Moylan]

Thank you both. I'll try to remember this if I ever have occasion to
sing it.

I have in the past sung James's version, which makes more sense.

[snide...@gmail.com]

Don't you mean "sucrose"? And aren't both sucrose and fructose broken down to glucose before being absorbed into the body?

Mexican soda is popular in parts of the US because it is still sweetened
with cane sugar, and many people can tell the difference from fructose-sweetened
soda (unless there's a second difference to confuse things).

Honey, for CDB, is sugar with impurities (the type of which is why babies
shouldn't get honey until their immune system is reasonably operative).

What's discouraging is that the "non-metabolic sweetners" still seem to trigger
to the same glandular activity, according to an increasing number of reports.


/dps "looking for a high-fibre sweetener with no calories"

[Charles Bishop]

In article <tgfana13iddie5kv3...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:07:34 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 08/06/15 01:17, James Hogg wrote:
> >> John Holmes wrote:
> >>> Does anyone know the meaning and associations of the word "sugarfoot"
> >>> in the context of early jazz music? It appears in song titles, lyrics,
> >>> band names and as a nickname. Google didn't seem to be much help.
> >>>
> >> It's not in the OED except in a quotation under "shag":
> >>
> >> 1938 Sun (Baltimore) 24 June 4/3 The Virginia reel, the shag, the
> >> sugarfoot and trucking predominate on the dance program.
> >
> >You're not supposed to do that on the dance floor. You go outside and
> >have a shag on a rock.
>
> Or a haystack.

On a haystack or in a haystack?

--
charles

[Steve Hayes]

In, in the version I've heard.

There was shagging in the haystacks
There was shagging in the ricks

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

snide...@gmail.com skrev:

> Honey, for CDB, is sugar with impurities (the type of which is
> why babies shouldn't get honey until their immune system is
> reasonably operative).

It's one specific ingredience that babies cannot handle - spores
of the botulinum bacterium. They risk that they develop into
bacteria producing the well-known toxin.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Dr Nick]

Glucose and fructose are isomers (they are both C6H12O6). Fructose is
processed deep in the heart of cells, well after being absorbed into the
body. Strangely, it's not just isomerised to glucose, but goes down
it's own dedicated pathway in the liver and gets stored, being released
as glucose when needed.

[CDB]

On 09/06/2015 9:19 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> athel...@yahoo wrote:

>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> R H Draney wrote:

[Sugarfoot]

>>>>> My mother had a toe amputated because of an infection that
>>>>> was exacerbated by diabetes....r

>>>> Type 2 wasn't widespread back then, though. As late as the
>>>> 1980s, my own dear mother thought sugar and crisco were food
>>>> groups.

>>> The rise of Type 2 diabetes sure seems to track with the rise of
>>> HFCS.

>>> For example, Mexico used to have a fairly low incidence of Type
>>> II, but after they started getting a lot more processed food with
>>> HFCS in them, the rate sky rocketed.

>>> I suspect that sugar itself is not the problem, its the kinds of
>>> sugars.

>> It's both. Fructose is much worse than glucose, but you wouldn't
>> want to stuff yourself with glucose either (especially as it's much
>> less sweet than fructose, so you'd probably consume a lot more to
>> arrive at the same degree of sweetness).

> Don't you mean "sucrose"? And aren't both sucrose and fructose
> broken down to glucose before being absorbed into the body?

Sucrose is broken into glucose and fructose as a first step. As I
understand it, glucose can then be transported into and used by the
cells; fructose is broken down and stored in the liver, and too much of
it causes problems there.

> Mexican soda is popular in parts of the US because it is still
> sweetened with cane sugar, and many people can tell the difference
> from fructose-sweetened soda (unless there's a second difference to
> confuse things).

Found some Jarritos at a specialty shop here the other week, and bought
one for OTS. They are pretty good.

> Honey, for CDB, is sugar with impurities (the type of which is why
> babies shouldn't get honey until their immune system is reasonably
> operative).

That's why it was an "empty gesture". In fact, the stronger taste
allows me to reduce the amount of sweetener, and the higher price
encourages that.

Which/as the higher price encourages me to do. Still thinking, very slowly.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

No. I don't.

> And aren't both sucrose and fructose broken down to glucose before
> being absorbed into the body?

Yes. However, the hydrolysis of sucrose is not instantaneous, so
supplying fructose in the form of fructose has an immediate effect that
supplying the same amount as sucrose does not have. Even if it were
instantaneous, sucrose yields only 50% fructose, and 50% less is
important: you may well be capable of driving safely after two glasses
of wine, but you probably won't be after four.

--
athel

[Charles Bishop]

In article <ml98pc$rsp$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Should the last be "fructose is transported to the liver where it is
broken down, and too much of it causes problems there." Or do the
breakdown products of fructose when they enter the liver cause problems?

[snip]

Charles

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

The liver can, and indeed does, cope with a moderate intake of
fructose, but it's not happy if it gets a big dose in a short time. The
difference between 100% fructose in fructose, and 50% fructose in the
hydrolysis products of sucrose, is significant, as is the fact that the
hydrolysis of sucrose is not instantaneous.

ObAUE. How do you all pronounce "fructose"? I pronounce it /frUktoUz/
and always have, probably because I first heard the word from a teacher
who pronounced it that way (quite possibly as a personal idiosyncrasy,
as in general he had a classy RP way of speaking). My wife also says
/frUktoUz/ (or more likely /frUktoUs/) but that's not only because
that's how she hears me say it but also because it's the natural way to
anglicize "fructosa". For those who don't do ASCII IPA, /frUk/ rhymes
with "look" /lUk/, not with "luck" /lVk/.


--
athel

[Jerry Friedman]

It might even be other things in processed food.

>>> It's both. Fructose is much worse than glucose, but you wouldn't want
>>> to stuff yourself with glucose either (especially as it's much less
>>> sweet than fructose, so you'd probably consume a lot more to arrive at
>>> the same degree of sweetness).
>>
>> Don't you mean "sucrose"?
>
> No. I don't.
>
>> And aren't both sucrose and fructose broken down to glucose before
>> being absorbed into the body?
>
> Yes. However, the hydrolysis of sucrose is not instantaneous, so
> supplying fructose in the form of fructose has an immediate effect that
> supplying the same amount as sucrose does not have. Even if it were
> instantaneous, sucrose yields only 50% fructose, and 50% less is
> important: you may well be capable of driving safely after two glasses
> of wine, but you probably won't be after four.

Most high-fructose corn syrup is of two types: The sugar is either 42%
fructose or 55% fructose, the rest being glucose. (A small amount of
90% fructose is also produced.) It's "high-fructose" compared to
regular corn syrup, which contains only glucose. Wikipedia says the 55%
type is used mostly in drinks; the 42% type is used in drinks and
various foods.

So HFCS contains either a little less fructose than sucrose does or a
little more, but not much. As you say, though, it consists of simple
sugars, which may have a different effect from sucrose. It's
composition is close to that of honey (but it doesn't taste nearly as good).

The main thing is not to eat much sugar.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 12:36:27 PM UTC-4, athel...@yahoo wrote:

> ObAUE. How do you all pronounce "fructose"? I pronounce it /frUktoUz/

So you're now prepared to admit that "dome" [doUm] sounds like Ger. "Dom" [do:m]? You've given up that lazy [@U] thing?

[Peter Moylan]

On 12/06/15 02:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> ObAUE. How do you all pronounce "fructose"? I pronounce it /frUktoUz/

The same first vowel for me, but I think my pronunciation is closer to
[frUkt@Uz].

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 10:49:57 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 12/06/15 02:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> > ObAUE. How do you all pronounce "fructose"? I pronounce it /frUktoUz/
>
> The same first vowel for me, but I think my pronunciation is closer to
> [frUkt@Uz].

z for all the sugars? I've never heard a G.P. or an endocrinologist use a z
(and my mother was diabetic from when I was about 7 years old).

[Ross]

I've always pronounced these with /s/, and K&K seem to agree for the
ones I checked. In OED, the older un-revised entries all have /s/, but
the recently revised (including the general entry for -ose) allow
both /s/ and /z/ in UK and US. Earliest appearance of /z/ may be in
hexose (1933), but I only checked the sample they list in the suffix entry.

[Snidely]

Lo, on the 6/10/2015, Athel Cornish-Bowden did proclaim ...

Sorry. I was thinking that glucose would be an uncommon consumer
purchase. However, I have since read Jerry's post that describes
corn syrup being significantly full of glucose.

Is sucrose a result of the heating (boiling?) of the raw stuff,
or does sugar cane produce sucrose directly, and the heating
just gets rid of water? Do sugar beets produce sucrose directly?

>
>> And aren't both sucrose and fructose broken down to glucose before being
>> absorbed into the body?
>
> Yes. However, the hydrolysis of sucrose is not instantaneous, so supplying
> fructose in the form of fructose has an immediate effect that
> supplying the same amount as sucrose does not have. Even if it were
> instantaneous, sucrose yields only 50% fructose, and 50% less is important:
> you may well be capable of driving safely after two glasses of wine, but you
> probably won't be after four.

I have also noted CDB's liverish post, and your followup to that.

Oh, and I say /'fruk toUs/, with a very sibillant s.

I think rhyming it with Luke toast is pretty common among people around
me, but saying it outloud isn't an everyday activity, so ICBW.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Snidely skrev:

> Is sucrose a result of the heating (boiling?) of the raw stuff,
> or does sugar cane produce sucrose directly, and the heating
> just gets rid of water? Do sugar beets produce sucrose directly?

Yes. They contain 14-16 % (Danish sugar beets).

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

The SOED has /z/ followed by /s/ for glucose and /z/ followed by /s/
for fructose, which seems a bit arbitrary. I get my ideas of how they
are said from how they are pronounced by other chemists and biochemists
rather than from dim memories of what my mother's doctor might have
said half a century ago, and my impression is that both /z/ and /s/ are
in general use and neither is considered wrong by people who use the
other.

I was more interested, however, in how people pronounce the first
vowel. Only Peter Moylan seems to have answered this, and, to my
surprise, he pronunces it as I do. My impression is that /V/ is more
common, and more consistent with the way most people (including me)
pronounce "fructify".

We have other chemists here: for example, does Paul Wolff have an opinion?

--
athel

[Ross]

I notice now that there is a less specialized but also less productive
suffix -ose1, as in verbose, otiose, comatose, bellicose. (The sugar
suffix is -ose2.) But there is a similar pattern of pronunciation,
with /s/ in the older entries, while at least one (otiose) recently
revised entry allows both /s/ and /z/. Here there is an explicit
statement in the -ose1 entry: "The traditional pronunciation has /s/,
but /z/ is frequently heard in the commoner words of this type,
especially where the stress is not on the termination."

[Jerry Friedman]

I have /s/ in all the chemical suffixes -ose and -ase. My choices for
the first vowel in "fructose" are /U/ and /u/, definitely not /V/.
However, M-W and AHD give /V/ first, and AHD doesn't give /u/ at all.

I'm not a chemist and I don't know where I got my pronunciations. Maybe
from "sucrose"? Or from my mother, who was a chemistry technician
before she got married?

> We have other chemists here: for example, does Paul Wolff have an opinion?

--

Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Interesting. I certainly hear /s/ in -ose sometimes, but I've _never_
heard it in -ase, which is always /z/ (and those are words I use every
day, a lot more often than the ones in -ose). I had some difficulty
finding an -ase word in the SOED, but "hydroxylase" is there and has
/z/ as the only possibility.

> My choices for the first vowel in "fructose" are /U/ and /u/,
> definitely not /V/. However, M-W and AHD give /V/ first, and AHD
> doesn't give /u/ at all.
>
> I'm not a chemist and I don't know where I got my pronunciations.
> Maybe from "sucrose"? Or from my mother, who was a chemistry
> technician before she got married?
>
>> We have other chemists here: for example, does Paul Wolff have an opinion?


--

athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 7:09:07 AM UTC-4, athel...@yahoo wrote:
> On 2015-06-12 05:53:10 +0200, Ross <benl...@ihug.co.nz> said:
> > On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 3:21:07 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 10:49:57 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>> On 12/06/15 02:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >>>> ObAUE. How do you all pronounce "fructose"? I pronounce it /frUktoUz/
> >>> The same first vowel for me, but I think my pronunciation is closer to
> >>> [frUkt@Uz].
> >> z for all the sugars? I've never heard a G.P. or an endocrinologist use a z
> >> (and my mother was diabetic from when I was about 7 years old).
> > I've always pronounced these with /s/, and K&K seem to agree for the
> > ones I checked. In OED, the older un-revised entries all have /s/, but
> > the recently revised (including the general entry for -ose) allow
> > both /s/ and /z/ in UK and US. Earliest appearance of /z/ may be in
> > hexose (1933), but I only checked the sample they list in the suffix entry.
>
> The SOED has /z/ followed by /s/ for glucose and /z/ followed by /s/
> for fructose, which seems a bit arbitrary.

Strikes me as perfectly consistent and not in the least arbitrary.

> I get my ideas of how they
> are said from how they are pronounced by other chemists and biochemists
> rather than from dim memories of what my mother's doctor might have
> said half a century ago,

Hey. Asshole. I saw my endocrinologist on Monday, and she, like everyone
else in the field around here, uses [s].

Are you really so stupid as not to have understood that I was saying I've
been hearing it that way since 1959, including in high school biology and
chemistry classes, and in diabetes instruction and advertising ever since?

> and my impression is that both /z/ and /s/ are
> in general use and neither is considered wrong by people who use the
> other.
>
> I was more interested, however, in how people pronounce the first
> vowel. Only Peter Moylan seems to have answered this, and, to my
> surprise, he pronunces it as I do. My impression is that /V/ is more
> common, and more consistent with the way most people (including me)
> pronounce "fructify".

Never heard that one, either. [u(w)} is usual, [U] would be fairly unremarkable.

[Peter T. Daniels]

How about verbs in -ase? I'd expect /z/. (The only one I can think of is
"liase," which doesn't help. But haven't I seen some in discussions of what
enzymes do?)

> the first vowel in "fructose" are /U/ and /u/, definitely not /V/.
> However, M-W and AHD give /V/ first, and AHD doesn't give /u/ at all.
>
> I'm not a chemist and I don't know where I got my pronunciations. Maybe
> from "sucrose"? Or from my mother, who was a chemistry technician
> before she got married?

Athel apparently doesn't accept maternal pronunciations as relevant.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 9:48:21 AM UTC-4, athel...@yahoo wrote:
> On 2015-06-12 14:42:27 +0200, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> said:

> > I have /s/ in all the chemical suffixes -ose and -ase.
>
> Interesting. I certainly hear /s/ in -ose sometimes, but I've _never_
> heard it in -ase, which is always /z/ (and those are words I use every
> day, a lot more often than the ones in -ose). I had some difficulty
> finding an -ase word in the SOED, but "hydroxylase" is there and has
> /z/ as the only possibility.

Verb or noun? Names of enzymes always have [s] Over Here.

[Peter Moylan]

On 12/06/15 22:42, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> I have /s/ in all the chemical suffixes -ose and -ase. My choices for
> the first vowel in "fructose" are /U/ and /u/, definitely not /V/.
> However, M-W and AHD give /V/ first, and AHD doesn't give /u/ at all.

I have different first vowels in fructose /U/ and sucrose /u/.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone use /V/ in either of those.

[Dr Nick]

As a lapsed biologist (who had to do all this stuff for undergraduate
biochemistry) I think I probably vary between z and s in all of these
words, including the generic "aldose" and the non-sugary "venose",
pretty much at random.

On the other question, I have the same sound in fructose and fructify.
As I've said on many occasions, my 'U's are very non-standard so I'll
gloss that by saying that this is the sound in "muck" and very much not
the sound in "book" (which I think you suggested earlier).

[Dr Nick]

What, no "deoxyribonuclease"? I agree; all those enzymes are /z/.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Quite possibly, but once I found "hydroxylase" I stopped looking.

> I agree; all those enzymes are /z/.

--
athel

[Wayne Brown]

In my AME (and that of everyone else I've heard pronounce it), it rhymes
with "Luke" or "spook."

--
F. Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net>

ur sag9-ga ur-tur-še3 ba-an-kur9
"A dog that is played with turns into a puppy." (Sumerian proverb)

[Jerry Friedman]

On 6/12/15 7:48 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2015-06-12 14:42:27 +0200, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>
> said:

...

>> I have /s/ in all the chemical suffixes -ose and -ase.
>
> Interesting. I certainly hear /s/ in -ose sometimes, but I've _never_
> heard it in -ase, which is always /z/ (and those are words I use every
> day, a lot more often than the ones in -ose). I had some difficulty
> finding an -ase word in the SOED, but "hydroxylase" is there and has /z/
> as the only possibility.

...

The AHD and M-W give "polymerase" with /s/ first, then /z/. Seems to me
I might have heard an enzyme name with a /z/ somewhere along the line.
Don't you talk about them with Americans?

--
Jerry Friedman