Pronunciation of licorice
N.Mitchum
John Craig wrote:
-----
> When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
> "licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
> (and I believe also in US) is "licorish".
>.....
Yes, in the US the usual pronunciation is "lickerish."
But what pronunciation does "licorice" represent? Lick-oh-rice?
You may think the spelling corresponds in some obvious and natural
way to the pronunciation you grew up with, but not everyone sees
it as you do.
--- NM
Mailed copies of replies always appreciated. (Mailers: drop HINTS.)
John Craig
When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
"licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
me the origin of this word, and an explanation of its pronunciation?
Thanks for any help..
John
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <352705f8...@news.wgtn.ihug.co.nz>,
the lovely and talented cra...@ihug.co.nz (John Craig)
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
The word, with suitable transliterations, seems to have come through
French and Latin from a Greek word meaning "sweet root."
Wild guess at the reason for the pronunciation: folk etymology
confusing it with "lickerish."
--
Lars Eighner 700 Hearn #101 Austin TX 78703 eig...@io.com
(512) 474-1920 (FAX answers 6th ring) http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner.html
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* Lesser artists borrow. Great artists steal.
Robert Lipton
In article <352705f8...@news.wgtn.ihug.co.nz>, John Craig wrote:
>When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
>"licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
>(and I believe also in US) is "licorish". Could someone please tell
>me the origin of this word, and an explanation of its pronunciation?
>Thanks for any help..
I presume that English dictionaries are unavailable in ...New Zealand? I
also presume the Maori dictionaries you must make do with don't cover the
subject. Therefore, I take this opportunity to show off my RHUD2 and
note that the etymological notes for licorice show that it entered the
language in the period from 1175-1225; ME lycorys<AF(1)<VL(2) *liquiritia
for L glycyrrhiza<Gk glyky(s) sweet +rhiza root; see -ia.
It seems to me that the -ish ending in the spoken American English version
dates from the Vulgar Latin. Certainly, '-ti-' gets changed to sh often
enough. I would speculate that the English pronunciation is
hypercorrection of the spelling variety. However, as the spelling of the
Vulgar Latin word is a supposition, it must remain a mystery.
Bob
(1) Anglo-French. Presumably derived from Norman French
(2) Vulgar Latin
Gregory de Monsoux
U.K. : "LICK-er-rish". I tend to use the optional spelling "liquorice".
John Craig wrote in message <352705f8...@news.wgtn.ihug.co.nz>...
Rhialto
"When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
"licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand, (and
I believe also in US) is "licorish". Could someone please tell me the
origin of this word, and an explanation of its pronunciation? Thanks for
any help.."
"Funny, I live in England (why, I know not) and it is always pronounced
/li/kor/rish/ here too, just like in kiwi land. Coincidence? Or does
England have more tahn one dialect?"
--Rhialto
+------------------------------------------------+
|Rhialto |
| |
|"I'm not just a pretty face!" |
|"Hah! You're not *even* a pretty face!" |
+------------------------------------------------+
SPAM filter in operation
Contrary to popular belief, England is not the utopia my email address
claims it is.
pdraper
John Craig <cra...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
<352705f8...@news.wgtn.ihug.co.nz>...
> When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
> "licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
> (and I believe also in US) is "licorish". Could someone please tell
> me the origin of this word, and an explanation of its pronunciation?
> Thanks for any help..
> John
That's strange.Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard liquorice
(usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've now
checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong all
this time.
--
Paul Draper
pdr...@baig.co.uk
0171 369 2754
Laura
The pronunciation "lick er ish" is a corruption (evolution?) of the latin pronunciation "lick-ir-it-sia."
I hope this helps.
Laura
Robert Clark
I concur with both points.
Robert Clark (UK)
Gregory de Monsoux <gry...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<6g7feh$3a7$1...@heliodor.xara.net>...
| U.K. : "LICK-er-rish". I tend to use the optional spelling "liquorice".
|
| John Craig wrote in message <352705f8...@news.wgtn.ihug.co.nz>...
Gerry Cechony
NM> > When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
NM> > "licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
NM> > (and I believe also in US) is "licorish".
NM> >.....
NM> Yes, in the US the usual pronunciation is "lickerish."
There's a common mispronunciation: "lickwish".
It seems to center around New York City.
I've often wondered if it's the result of some association with
"liquid".
---
* RM 1.31 3115 *
John Davies
In article <01bd607d$114ba2f0$7d07a8c2@rover>, pdraper
<pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
>> me the origin of this word, and an explanation of its pronunciation?
>> Thanks for any help..
>> John
>(usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've now
>checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong all
>this time.
You're not alone: I've lived here, on and off, since 1936 and have heard
it only as "ish" since, at a rough guess, 1942. Whilst Chambers
Dictionary gives "ish" as the US variant, I was interested to note that
J Windsor Lewis's "Concise Pronouncing Dictionary of British and
American English" (OUP, 1972), a work I've found an extremely reliable
guide, prefers "ish" and gives "is" as a permissable British variant.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Markus Laker
"pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
> That's strange.Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard liquorice
> (usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've now
> checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong all
> this time.
The most recent COD -- the ninth edition, published in 1995 -- admits
/'lIk@rIS/ as an alternative pronunciation. To reflect recent changes
in RP, Oxford University Press made a number of systematic changes to
the pronunciations in its dictionaries between COD8 and COD9. Out of
interest, which edition do you have?
Markus
--
a.u.e resources: http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/aue/
Remove the 'skip this bit' bit of my email address to reply.
Bob Cunningham
On Sat, 04 Apr 1998 20:29:39 -0800, "N.Mitchum"
<HINTS...@mail.lafn.org> said:
>John Craig wrote:
>-----
>> When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
>> "licorice". However, the usual pronunciation here in New Zealand,
>> (and I believe also in US) is "licorish".
>>.....
>
>Yes, in the US the usual pronunciation is "lickerish."
>
>But what pronunciation does "licorice" represent? Lick-oh-rice?
>You may think the spelling corresponds in some obvious and natural
>way to the pronunciation you grew up with, but not everyone sees
>it as you do.
All of this may leave some folks wondering just how 'licorice' is
pronounced in the UK. According to NSOED/93, it has four
pronunciations: ['lIk rIs], ['lIk @ rIs], ['lIk rIS], and ['lIk @ rIS].
('I' is the 'i' of 'pin', 's' is the 's' of 'sin', and 'S' is the 'sh'
of 'shin'. '@' stands for the sound of 'a' in 'about'.)
_The Chambers Dictionary_ (1993 edition) has only ['lIk @ rIs] for the
British pronunciation, and says that the [rIS] pronunciation is 'US'.
Also according to NSOED/93, the preferred spelling is 'liquorice'. The
'liquor' part may be a scholarly modification. There seems to be no
relation to the word 'liquor', which has the same Latin source as
'liquid'.
'Licorice' comes from Old French 'licoresse', which was ultimately from
Greek 'glukurrhiza', which was formed from 'glukus', 'sweet', and
'rhiza', 'root'. Note that 'glukus' and 'rhiza' are related to English
'glucose' and 'rhizome', respectively.
The botanical name for a plant from which licorice is obtained is
'glukurrhiza glabra', according to NSOED/93. The Chambers people prefer
the transliteration 'glycyrrhiza glabra'. (I used 'a plant' rather than
'the plant' because the dictionaries imply that other species may also
be used to obtain licorice.)
I see that there is an adjective 'liquorish' that means 'fond of or
indicating fondness for liquor'. 'Liquorish' is also given as a variant
of 'lickerish', which can mean (NSOED/93):
1. Fond of delicious food; greedy; _fig._ eagerly desirous,
longing
b.^ Lecherous, lustful
2. Pleasant to the palate; sweet; tempting. Formerly also,
(of a cook) skilful.
^ NSOED/93 often has a 'b' with no 'a'.
pdraper
Markus Laker <lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
<3532faca...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
> "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > That's strange.Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard
liquorice
> > (usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've
now
> > checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong
all
> > this time.
>
> The most recent COD -- the ninth edition, published in 1995 -- admits
> /'lIk@rIS/ as an alternative pronunciation. To reflect recent changes
> in RP, Oxford University Press made a number of systematic changes to
> the pronunciations in its dictionaries between COD8 and COD9. Out of
> interest, which edition do you have?
I must admit it's an old one that has been around the office for years. Um,
fourth edition, reprinted in 1959!
Even so, someone must have started putting the "ish" in liquorice and it's
still strange that the practice took hold to such an extent that I've never
heard the old pronounciation.
Bob Cunningham
On 5 Apr 1998 10:26:50 GMT, "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> said:
[ . . . ]
>Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard liquorice
>(usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've now
>checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong all
>this time.
You must have a fairly old edition of the Concise Oxford. The Eighth
Edition, copyright 1990, has both ['lIk@rIs] and ['lIk@rIS] ('LICK a
riss') and ('LICK a rish').
However, the older edition of _The Oxford English Dictionary_, whose
'L's went to press in the period 1901-03, has only the [rIs] ('riss')
pronunciation.
In case anyone's interested, the pronunciation I use, and the one I
expect to hear in the Western United States, is ['lIk riS]
('LICKreesh'). _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ (W3NID)
recognizes that the 'reesh' pronunciation exists, but it precedes it
with the division sign, meaning that many regard it as unacceptable.
Funny thing, though, W3NID precedes *every* pronunciation of 'licorice'
with the division sign, which translates to: 'There is no pronunciation
of "licorice" that is not found unacceptable by many'.
I would be interested to learn if any American who learned to speak
English west of the Rockies pronounces the last syllable any other way
than [riS] ('reesh').
Donna Richoux
pdraper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> had writen earlier:
> > > That's strange.Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard
> liquorice (usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with
> "ish". I've now checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been
> hearing it wrong all this time.
[and after Markus asked which COD he used, pdraper said:]
> I must admit it's an old one that has been around the office for years.
> Um, fourth edition, reprinted in 1959! Even so, someone must have started
> putting the "ish" in liquorice and it's still strange that the practice
> took hold to such an extent that I've never heard the old pronounciation.
For a citation on the pronunciation of the flavor "licorice" -- in the
children's book "Penrod" by Booth Tarkington (1914), which is set in an
Indiana city, a bottle of "licorice water" figures prominently in the
plot. In the dialog, the boys in the story call it "lickrish water." So
this was something unusual enough for the author to feel worth noting.
The 1946 Webster's Collegiate gives only one pronunciation for
licorice, ending with -is. The 1991 TBWBD gives four possibilities.
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
s.bat...@nature.com
In article <01bd6151$2a406370$7d07a8c2@rover>,
"pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Markus Laker <lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
> <3532faca...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
> > "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> liquorice
> > > (usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've
> now
> > > checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong
> all
> > > this time.
> >
> > /'lIk@rIS/ as an alternative pronunciation. To reflect recent changes
> > in RP, Oxford University Press made a number of systematic changes to
> > the pronunciations in its dictionaries between COD8 and COD9. Out of
> > interest, which edition do you have?
> fourth edition, reprinted in 1959!
> Even so, someone must have started putting the "ish" in liquorice and it's
> still strange that the practice took hold to such an extent that I've never
> heard the old pronounciation.
>
Well, I say it - and I don't feel uncomfortably Brian-Sewell-haha when I say
it. (At least, I *didn't*.)
Where's 369? Maybe I can stand on the office roof and shout there from 843,
and spoil your 41-year deprivation.
Stephen B
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On 6 Apr 1998 11:45:07 GMT, "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>Markus Laker <lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
><3532faca...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
>> "pdraper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > That's strange.Living in the UK for 41 years I have never heard
>liquorice
>> > (usual UK spelling) pronounced with "ice" but always with "ish". I've
>now
>> > checked the Concise Oxford and it tells me I've been hearing it wrong
>all
>> > this time.
>>
>> The most recent COD -- the ninth edition, published in 1995 -- admits
>> /'lIk@rIS/ as an alternative pronunciation. To reflect recent changes
>> in RP, Oxford University Press made a number of systematic changes to
>> the pronunciations in its dictionaries between COD8 and COD9. Out of
>> interest, which edition do you have?
>I must admit it's an old one that has been around the office for years. Um,
>fourth edition, reprinted in 1959!
>Even so, someone must have started putting the "ish" in liquorice and it's
>still strange that the practice took hold to such an extent that I've never
>heard the old pronounciation.
>
>
It's just that the language has been going to the dogs ever since
WWII, and accelerating. Lickerish is an adjective and has absolutely
no connection with liquorice -- unless a cake of liquorice has some
recently discovered effect on the consumer.
pdraper
s.bat...@nature.com wrote in article
<6gat5f$ght$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> Well, I say it - and I don't feel uncomfortably Brian-Sewell-haha when I
say
> it. (At least, I *didn't*.)
I'm not saying it's wrong or antiquated, just that I'd never heard it. I
think if I'd never seen the word before I would use the "ice"
pronunciation.
>
> Where's 369? Maybe I can stand on the office roof and shout there from
843,
> and spoil your 41-year deprivation.
St. Mary Axe, in the City.
Shout loud, my office is in the back and it's double-glazed.
Gwen Lenker
Bob Cunningham wrote in message
<3543c929....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>[ . . . ]
>
>I would be interested to learn if any American who learned to speak
>English west of the Rockies pronounces the last syllable any other
way
>than [riS] ('reesh').
I'm the one. I grew up in San Francisco and have always pronounced
"licorice" as ['lIk@rIS].
John Craig
On 5 Apr 1998 05:04:27 GMT, lip...@dorsai.org (Robert Lipton) wrote:
>I presume that English dictionaries are unavailable in ...New Zealand? I
>also presume the Maori dictionaries you must make do with don't cover the
>subject.
I don't know what part of the English speaking world you come from,
but your patronising and sarcastic tone is neither called for nor
appreciated. I can assure you that I would not have considered
looking in a Maori dictionary for information on English
pronunciation, and that New Zealand is well supplied with English
dictionaries.
There must be hundreds of English words ending in "-ice", and I can
not think of any (other than licorice, or liquorice) that are
pronounced other than "-iss". My original post was to draw attention
to, and seek an explanation for, this anomaly. Of course many English
words have unexpected pronunciations for their spelling, but such can
normally be explained by their being foreign words which have retained
their original spelling and pronunciation.
John
P&DSchultz
John Craig wrote:
>
> When I lived in UK, I had always heard licorice pronounced as
> "licorice".
Then we're alike. We pronounce it "licorice" in the US too.
It rhymes with "dish."
//P. Schultz
Bob Cunningham
Hmmm . . . Maybe it's only us Utah folks that say 'reesh'.
Or maybe it's just me and a few others. Are you there, CK? Do you say
'LICKreesh'? If not, did you say it that way when you were still in
Utah?
I tried it on my wife just now; I asked her if she remembered those
little black things called 'Niblets' I used to love so much. She said
'yes', so I asked her what they were made of. I thought sure she said
['lIk riS] ('reesh'), but when I asked her to say it again she said
['lIk @ rIS] ('rish'). I asked her if she was saying 'rish' or 'reesh';
she said she wasn't sure.
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] **Please note Spam Trap** On Mon, 6 Apr 1998
09:21:22 -0700, "Gwen Lenker" <gale...@worldnet.att.net> in
<6gb547$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> wrote
(responding to Bob Cunningham)
|I'm the one. I grew up in San Francisco and have always pronounced
|"licorice" as ['lIk@rIS].
This agrees with my pronounciation (grew up across the Bay).
--
Mark Odegard. (descape to email)
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
David Dawson
Bob Cunningham (exw...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In case anyone's interested, the pronunciation I use, and the one I
: expect to hear in the Western United States, is ['lIk riS]
: ('LICKreesh'). _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ (W3NID)
: recognizes that the 'reesh' pronunciation exists, but it precedes it
: with the division sign, meaning that many regard it as unacceptable.
:
: I would be interested to learn if any American who learned to speak
: English west of the Rockies pronounces the last syllable any other way
: than [riS] ('reesh').
I learned to speak English in the Pacific Northwest (well to the west of
the Rockies). I have never heard the [riS] ('reesh') pronunciation! I use
the pronunciation [rIS] ('rish'). And I use the middle syllable,
pronouncing licorice 'lickerish'.
--
== David Dawson = ==
== dda...@eskimo.com = "Mean old 'Frisco, and that low-down Santa Fe" ==
== Seattle, WA USA = - Big Bill Broonzy ==