Re: The word "swastika" was mistranslated & created the "swastika myth"
Jacques Guy
> I remember there being some controversy over "soup nazi" when the relevant
> _Seinfeld_ episode first aired.
"Soup nazi"? I that what you have with your "nazi Göring"
(usually misspelt as "nasi goreng"--known as fried rice in
English)?
don groves
chri...@free.fr hath writ:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't have associated the other phrase he recommended, "hook cross"
> > or "hooked cross," with the swastika (unless, of course, it occurred in
> > a Nazi context -- incidentally, Germans today don't use the word "Nazi";
> > to them it's an English word. They say Nazionalsozialismus).
>
> Germans certainly use the word _Nazi_, as a standalone noun to refer
> to a person who adheres to the ideology of Hitler's party (back then
> or in modernised form now), or, broadening the sense, to what also
> could be called, in a derogatory sense, a fascist; and as part of all
> sorts of compound nouns.
>
> It is not shorthand for _Nationalsozialismus_, though.
>
> It is, however, rather unusual in the non-political sense it often has
> in English. As a German, I can understand _femi-nazi_, _web standards
> nazi_, and the like, and don't object to them as such, but these terms
> give me the creeps.
I can imagine. It gives me the creeps to see the Gestapo
techniques that have crept into US society. Bashing in doors of
suspected people in the middle of the night with guns drawn and
then not even apologizing when it turns out they have the wrong
house, or the suspect is not there.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
Nath Rao
> swastika
> ("swQstIk@, formerly "sw&stIk@) Also svast-, -ica. [Skr. svastika, f.
> svastí well-being, fortune, luck, f. sú good + astí being (f. as to be).]
>
> 1. A primitive symbol or ornament of the form of a cross with equal
> arms with a limb of the same length projecting at right angles
> from the end of each arm, all in the same direction and (usually)
> clockwise; also called gammadion and fylfot. Also attrib.
>
> 1871 Alabaster Wheel of Law 249 On the great toe is the Trisul. On
> each side of the others a Swastika.
Does this mean that Trisul is an English word as well (rather than
trident)?
> 1882 E. C. Robertson in Proc. Berw. Nat. Club IX. No. 3. 516 In
> Japan..the cross-like symbol of the sun, the Swastica, is put on
> coffins.
> 1895 Reliquary Oct. 252 The use of the Swastica cross in mediaeval
> times.
> 1904 Times 27 Aug. 10/3 [In Tibet] a few white, straitened hovels in
> tiers... On the door of each is a kicking swastika in white, and
> over it a rude daub of ball and crescent.
It seems that at some point before 1895, the term "swastika" had crossed
into general use from being limited to those knowledgeable about the
East. It is not correct to say that it was in use in English from 1871.
Before I accept that both the clockwise and anticlockwise orientations
are freely used by Hindus, I would like to see the contexts of these
uses. On general principles, I expect clockwise orientation in contexts
having to do with gods, temples etc, and the anticlockwise orientation
in contexts having to do with death, funerary rites, black magic (ie,
rites designed to hurt someone).
Nath Rao
Peter Dy
"Nath Rao" <RnNaDt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cvsi57$826$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
[...]
> Before I accept that both the clockwise and anticlockwise orientations are
> freely used by Hindus, I would like to see the contexts of these uses. On
> general principles, I expect clockwise orientation in contexts having to
> do with gods, temples etc, and the anticlockwise orientation in contexts
> having to do with death, funerary rites, black magic (ie, rites designed
> to hurt someone).
I don't know about Hindus, but I have a colorful shoulder bag from Tibet
that has a row of swastikas on the top, both clockwise and
counter-clockwise. In Buddhism, I don't think it matters which way they're
turning.
Peter
R H Draney
>
>I don't know about Hindus, but I have a colorful shoulder bag from Tibet
>that has a row of swastikas on the top, both clockwise and
>counter-clockwise. In Buddhism, I don't think it matters which way they're
>turning.
I don't think it *can* matter...I've seen the fylfot worked into a repeating
pattern in a stone lattice; which way the wheels are turning depends on which
side of the wall you're standing on....r
Jacques Guy
> I don't know about Hindus, but I have a colorful shoulder bag from Tibet
> that has a row of swastikas on the top, both clockwise and
> counter-clockwise. In Buddhism, I don't think it matters which way they're
> turning.
I know a bit about Hinduism, but I also have a colourful... no,
not shoulder bag, but book on Kabuki, where the kimono worn but
an actor of the Lion Dance is composed of swastikas, alternately
facing left and right. My guess is: it looks nicer arranged that
way. I read somewhere else that the clockwise croix gammée was
considered yang, the anti-clockwise one yin. In which case that
Japanese actor's kimono makes sense, just like the central
watchamacallit on the Korean flag.
the Omrud
Does anybody know if it would be legal to take this into Germany?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Peter Dy
"the Omrud" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109582154.4c06b0a2c69889b17a4c0ccd8a28bbc6@teranews...
Interesting question. Actually, I carried that bag around for over a yeaer
when I was a student of German, and there were many Germans in my program.
No one said anything. The bag is so obviously ethnic folk art, with lots of
colors, and the swastikas are a little hard to notice from afar--it just
looks like a nice design. So, I'm guessing it wouldn't be a problem in
Germany. No way a neo-Nazi would carry around a bag like that!
Peter
ChrWaigl
> Does anybody know if it would be legal to take this into Germany?
[it = "a colorful shoulder bag from Tibet that has a row of swastikas
on the top, both clockwise and counter-clockwise"
I'd certainly suppose it is. I've seen them in exhibitions of south
Asian art in Germany, though "ethnic" fashion sold there (both faux
and genuine) tends to avoid this particular symbol.
The law there is quite similar to that in France, which forbids
wearing/displaying emblems and uniforms of the organisations found
guilty of crimes against humanity during the Nazi years. There are
exceptions of course. But the laws don't concern themselves with the
original, pre-Nazi symbol at all.
I haven't been to Germany in a while, but in France, using even the
Nazi swastika to signify neo-Nazi/extreme right-wing leanings is
common in cartoons or anti-fascist protest.
Chris Waigl
--
a chisel writing -- http://lascribe.net/
"Away, you scullion! you rampallian! you fustilarian!
I'll tickle your catastrophe."
c w a i g l / a t / f r e e / p o i n t / f r
Aidan Kehoe
Ar an ceathrú lá is fiche de mí Feabhra, scríobh re...@ij.net:
> Again: "swastika" *is not* and *was not* an English word for that shape
Doch. (English needs a word for “Oh yes it was” that isn’t redolent of
pantomine--consider this the start of my campaign!)
> as another poster has already informed you of "crooked cross" and even if
> it had been, the issue has everything to do with selecting the "best"
> word translation, or any kind of a translation, of a German term for a
> German use of the shape that developed in the 1920 (not in the 1930s).
If “swastika” was the most widely known term for the sign among those who
needed to talk about it, then it was the best translation of the German word
for that sign.
> The shape predates that use, and so does the English word
> "hooked cross" and "crooked cross."
So does the use of “swastika” in English--indeed, it’s got the earliest
exact citation (1871) of any of the alternatives for the term in the
OED. “Crooked cross” and �hooked cross” don’t even make it in.
> We called it a "hooked cross" and a "crooked cross" just as we call a
> vocabulary a vocabulary, which is similarly related to the word "vocal,"
No we don’t.
> [...] Instead, you would of course select some incomprehensible or
> unknown Sanskrit word which had no clear intuitive meaning and that would
> not aid anyone in understanding the word itself nor the relationship to
> other word, or of the words discussed.
You don’t get to choose the vocabulary of your language, if that vocabulary
is already established, and you’re not, say, a member of the Académie
Française or running the government of the place. It’s a given, work with
it.
> You might even do so in a deliberate effort to mislead and obscure the
> relationship between words and languages. As was done with the word
> "swastika."
No, it wasn’t.
> Thanks for not disputing most of my points. And boy I am having a
> great time ripping all of your examples into pieces.
Hahah! Well, keep enjoying yourself, okay?
> You should give up. It is only going to get worse.
Right, then. I give up. Your rhetorical powers have me quivering and silent,
afraid to phrase a sentence lest it be demolished by your thorough command
of the facts and your excellent debating technique.
--
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien
Martin Ambuhl
> You don’t get to choose the vocabulary of your language, if that vocabulary
> is already established, and you’re not, say, a member of the Académie
> Française or running the government of the place.
Sure he does. He doesn't get to choose the vocabulary of your language
or mine, though.
Aidan Kehoe
Ar an ceathrú lá is fiche de mí Feabhra, scríobh Martin Ambuhl:
Is a language really a language if only one person _can_ be sure that
they’re using it properly? (This is not to argue that “idiolect” isn’t a
useful word.)
Harlan Messinger
But that's his goal--he's criticizing the common usage, saying it should
change.
Peter T. Daniels
In short, a language fascist, amusingly at odds with his purported
philosophy of "liberalism" aka libertarianism.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Joe Fineman
> If “swastika” was the most widely known term for the sign among
> those who needed to talk about it, then it was the best translation
> of the German word for that sign.
To judge from the OED, we didn't have *any* widely known term for it
in the early '30s when, suddenly, every newspaper needed one. We also
had "fylfot" & "gammadion", but each was confined (like "swastika") to
a special context. For a while, the newspapers imported "Hakenkreuz".
It would be interesting to know how we came to settle on "swastika" as
the usual name. It *seems* that the Germans didn't have much to do
with it.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Have you set up your environment so that you are punished :||
||: for being careful? :||
re...@ij.net
English Dictionary includes "hakenkreuz" and it is below. Not that
it appears to state that "hakenkreuz" was used as an English word
in the Times in 1931. So hakenkreuz was a term that translators should
have used instead of Swastika.
Hakenkreuz, hakenkreuz . [Ger.] The Nazi swastika. Also attrib.
1931 _Times_ 23 Dec. 7/4 A large Nazi Hakenkreuz flag, `which can be
seen for
miles', flies from the tallest chimney. 1935 C. Isherwood _Mr. Norris
changes
Trains_ xi. 165 Hitler's negotiations with the Right had broken down;
the
Hakenkreuz was even flirting mildly with the Hammer and Sickle. 1966 M.
Albrand
_Door fell Shut_ xvi. 115 His eyes fell on a large hakenkreuz. To come
upon the
Nazi insignia so unexpectedly made Bronsky feel slightly sick. 1972
_Oxford
Times_ 28 July 9 Perhaps he [sc. Hitler] hoped the Hakenkreuz would
bring bad
luck to his enemies.
Translators do choose words, sometimes from multiple alternatives. My
topic is about the translation of the book by the leader of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party. Even to this day the word
swastika is clearly an "odd" or "foreign" sounding word to most people
in the West and all they know about it is its relationship to the
symbol. On the other hand, even to this day, the terms "hooked cross"
or "crooked cross" are not "odd" or "foreign" to most people in the
west, they are clear on their face, and especially so when discussing
the symbol used by the monstrous National Socialist German Workers
Party. All of my points are correct. The correct choice for the
translation was not swastika. The previous post by someone else
already conceded that I am correct that the term "crooked cross" was
the English term term used at that time (and so was "hooked cross").
The term swastika is still used to perpetuate a myth, the swastika
myth. http://rexcurry.net/swastikanews.html
And it slanders the word swastika and the bizarre myth that people
"over there" had something to do with inspiring the horrid National
Socialist German Workers' Party or their philosophy. No one should
defend that.
re...@ij.net
agree that it would be interesting to know how we came to settle on
"swastika."
Thanks again.
re...@ij.net
re...@ij.net
National Socialist German Workers' Party are the people who have never
written or spoken the actual name of the monstrous party in their lives
and who always use hackneyed adjectives (as you do) and the shorthand
to cover up for the horrid party, and who also use the term "swastika"
even when they know that it perpetuates the swastika myth
http://rexcurry.net/swastikanews.html and other ignorance, and who have
never explained to anyone the actual word used in their lives and never
intend to do so. Intentionally and with knowledge.
Martin Ambuhl
("swQstIk@, formerly "sw&stIk@) Also svast-, -ica. [Skr. svastika, f.
svastí well-being, fortune, luck, f. sú good + astí being (f. as to be).]
1. A primitive symbol or ornament of the form of a cross with equal
arms with a limb of the same length projecting at right angles
from the end of each arm, all in the same direction and (usually)
clockwise; also called gammadion and fylfot. Also attrib.
1871 Alabaster Wheel of Law 249 On the great toe is the Trisul. On
each side of the others a Swastika.
1882 E. C. Robertson in Proc. Berw. Nat. Club IX. No. 3. 516 In
Japan..the cross-like symbol of the sun, the Swastica, is put on
coffins.
1895 Reliquary Oct. 252 The use of the Swastica cross in mediaeval
times.
1904 Times 27 Aug. 10/3 [In Tibet] a few white, straitened hovels in
tiers... On the door of each is a kicking swastika in white, and
over it a rude daub of ball and crescent.
2. a. This symbol (with clockwise projecting limbs) used as the
emblem of the German (and other) Nazi parties; = Hakenkreuz,
hakenkreuz. Also, a flag bearing this emblem.
1932 ‘Nordicus’ Hitlerism ii. 17 Thousands flocked to his
standard—the ‘Hakenkreuz’—(swastika), the ancient anti-semitic
cross in a color scheme of red-white-black in memory of the
colors of the old army.
1933 [see Aryan a. 2]. 1941 G. Ziemer Educ. for Death i. 4 A squad
of Nazi youngsters in+brown shirts decorated with swastikas.
Ibid. ii. 30 A luxury hotel managed by a Jew... The swastika
over it fluttered gaily.
1951 L. Hagen Follow my Leader i. 6 Most of the men in my Sturm wore
at least part of a uniform, and all I could do was wear a
swastika armlet.
Ibid. vii. 266 Our compatriots..clung to their German ways
and..flew the swastika on our national holidays.
1967 T. Gunn Touch 15 A silk tent of swastikas.
1977 E. Heath Travels iv. 113 Along this street had stretched the
Nazi columns... Gone, now, were the crowds and the bright-red
banners flaunting their swastikas over the streets.
1979 J. Burmeister Glory Hunters i. 5 In addition to her national
flag she [sc. a ship] also flew the Swastika.
b. attrib. and Comb.
1934 Ann. Reg. 1933 i. 179 Minor acts of defiance towards the
Austrian Government+such as..the lighting of Swastika fires and
the daring hoisting of forbidden Swastika banners under the eyes
of the police..and the hoisting of Swastika flags.
1940 H. G. Wells All Aboard for Ararat iv. 101 As regards the olive
branch incident, it is to be noted that the leaves were
blood-stained and tied with a swastika ribbon.
1946 J. Flanner in New Yorker 5 Jan. 46/1 Ten years ago, he [sc.
Goering] was baying ‘Heil’ as he strutted the swastika-hung
streets.
1957 T. Gunn Sense of Movement 36 The swastika-draped bed.
1960 Jewish Chronicle 8 Apr. 14/3 The recent swastika-daubings in
this country.
Hence "swastika'd a., decorated with or wearing a swastika, esp. as
a badge of Nazism.
1965 New Statesman 15 Oct. 552/3 Buckley has+described the American
Nazi Party as ‘two dozen swastika-ed cretins who go about plying
their pathology in the fever-swamps of the crazy-Right’.
1969 Listener 14 Aug. 225/3 Where do those swastika'd Hell's Angels
types fit in?
> The Oxford
> English Dictionary includes "hakenkreuz" and it is below. Not that
> it appears to state that "hakenkreuz" was used as an English word
> in the Times in 1931.
The citations from 1932, 1933, and 1934 above suggest that "swastika"
for the Nazi symbol may well be contemporaneous with "Hakenkreuz" in
English. The citations above from 1871, 1882, 1895, and 1904 show that
"swastika" for the sign was well-established in English before 1931.
Further, the definition you quote assumes prior knowledge of the
swastika: "akenkreuz, hakenkreuz . [Ger.] The Nazi swastika."
> So hakenkreuz was a term that translators should
> have used instead of Swastika.
You'll have to explain this strange piece of pseudo-logic.
Harlan Messinger
> Please provide the Oxford dictionary info on swastika. The Oxford
> English Dictionary includes "hakenkreuz" and it is below. Not that
> it appears to state that "hakenkreuz" was used as an English word
> in the Times in 1931. So hakenkreuz was a term that translators should
> have used instead of Swastika.
Oh, yadda, yadda, yadda. And moccasin should be "soft-soleless-shoe" and
so on and so forth, and it was just *wrong* for anyone to use any word
that Rex thinks is foreign-sounding, whatever *that* means.
M. J. Powell
<hmessinger...@comcast.net> writes
>re...@ij.net wrote:
>> Please provide the Oxford dictionary info on swastika. The Oxford
>> English Dictionary includes "hakenkreuz" and it is below. Not that
>> it appears to state that "hakenkreuz" was used as an English word
>> in the Times in 1931. So hakenkreuz was a term that translators should
>> have used instead of Swastika.
>
>Oh, yadda, yadda, yadda. And moccasin should be "soft-soleless-shoe"
Isn't a sole-less shoe a spat?
Mike
Peter T. Daniels
I wouldn't have associated the other phrase he recommended, "hook cross"
or "hooked cross," with the swastika (unless, of course, it occurred in
a Nazi context -- incidentally, Germans today don't use the word "Nazi";
to them it's an English word. They say Nazionalsozialismus).
Peter T. Daniels
Your seris of thankyous are useless, since you quote nothing of what you
are thanking anyone for.
Ekkehard Dengler
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:421F9C...@worldnet.att.net...
> incidentally, Germans today don't use the word "Nazi";
> to them it's an English word. They say Nazionalsozialismus).
I don't know where you got that information from, but it's totally
incorrect. "Nazi" is an extremely usual abbreviation for "Nationalsozialist"
or "nationalsozialistisch" (not "Nationalsozialismus"). Note the spelling.
Don't take my word for it:
"ein Nazi" => 32,500 Google hits
"ein Nationalsozialist" => 932 Google hits
Regards,
Ekkehard
R H Draney
Aren't you going to get in trouble with your ISP for Googling such things from a
.de domain?...r
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:421F9C...@worldnet.att.net...
>
> > incidentally, Germans today don't use the word "Nazi";
> > to them it's an English word. They say Nazionalsozialismus).
>
> I don't know where you got that information from, but it's totally
I got that information from people I talk with.
> incorrect. "Nazi" is an extremely usual abbreviation for "Nationalsozialist"
> or "nationalsozialistisch" (not "Nationalsozialismus"). Note the spelling.
>
> Don't take my word for it:
>
> "ein Nazi" => 32,500 Google hits
> "ein Nationalsozialist" => 932 Google hits
ChrWaigl
> I wouldn't have associated the other phrase he recommended, "hook cross"
> or "hooked cross," with the swastika (unless, of course, it occurred in
> a Nazi context -- incidentally, Germans today don't use the word "Nazi";
> to them it's an English word. They say Nazionalsozialismus).
Germans certainly use the word _Nazi_, as a standalone noun to refer
to a person who adheres to the ideology of Hitler's party (back then
or in modernised form now), or, broadening the sense, to what also
could be called, in a derogatory sense, a fascist; and as part of all
sorts of compound nouns.
It is not shorthand for _Nationalsozialismus_, though.
It is, however, rather unusual in the non-political sense it often has
in English. As a German, I can understand _femi-nazi_, _web standards
nazi_, and the like, and don't object to them as such, but these terms
give me the creeps.
Areff
> It is, however, rather unusual in the non-political sense it often has
> in English. As a German, I can understand _femi-nazi_, _web standards
> nazi_, and the like, and don't object to them as such, but these terms
> give me the creeps.
I remember there being some controversy over "soup nazi" when the relevant
_Seinfeld_ episode first aired.
--
Steny '08!
Francis Bellamy
1. Karl Marx’s anti-Semitism (and his Christian background) inspired Hitler’s anti-Semitism and Hitler’s use of Christian cross symbolism including the SWASTIKA (the Hakenkreuz or “hooked cross”); Iron Cross; Balkenkreuz; Krückenkreuz; and the common Christian cross. The symbols signified commonality with Marx’s opposition to Judaism, and they promoted Christianity as the “alternative” thereto. The Swastika was also used to represent “S” letter shapes for “SOCIALISM” (Marx’s underlying dogma). Marx was a Nazi and Hitler was a Communist. http://rexcurry.net
2. NEW SWASTIKA DISCOVERY: Hitler’s symbol is the reason why Hitler renamed his political party from DAP to NSDAP - "National Socialist German Workers Party" - because he needed the word "Socialist" in his party's name so that Hitler could use swastikas as "S"-letter shaped logos for "SOCIALIST" as the party's emblem. The party's name had to fit in Hitler's socialist branding campaign that used the swastika and many other similar alphabetical symbols, including the “SS” and “SA” and “NSV” and “VW” etc.
3. NEW LENIN’S SWASTIKA REVELATION: Vladimir Lenin’s swastika is exposed herein. The impact of Lenin’s swastikas was reinforced at that time with additional swastikas on ruble money (paper currency). The swastika became a symbol of socialism under Lenin. It’s influence upon Adolf Hitler is explained in this book.
Lenin’s Christian background was similar to Marx’s. Marx’s anti-Semitism (and his religious upbringing) inspired Lenin’s anti-Semitism and the use of the SWASTIKA as Christian cross symbolism after 1917. The swastika symbol signified commonality with Marx’s opposition to Judaism. Judaism was banned by Soviet socialists. Under Lenin, the Russian Orthodox Church remained powerful (then Stalin became tyrant in 1922). The Swastika was also used to represent “S” letter shapes for “SOCIALISM” (Marx’s underlying dogma).
4. Marx, Hitler and their supporters self-identified as “socialists” by the very word in voluminous speeches and writings. The term "Socialist" appears throughout Mein Kampf as a self-description by Hitler. (Marx also used the term “Communist”).
5. Hitler was heavily influenced by Marx. Many socialists in the USA were also shaped by Marx. Two famous American socialists (the cousins Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy) were heavily influenced by Marx. The American socialists returned the favor: Francis Bellamy created the “Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag” that produced Nazi salutes and Nazi behavior. The Bellamy cousins were American national socialists.
6. Hitler never called himself a "Nazi." There was no “Nazi Germany.” There was no “Nazi Party.”
7. Hitler never called himself a “Fascist.” Modern socialists use “Nazi” and “Fascist” to hide how Hitler and his comrades self-identified: SOCIALIST.
8. The term “Nazi” isn’t in "Mein Kampf" nor in "Triumph of the Will."
9. The term “Fascist” never appears in Mein Kampf as a self-description by Hitler.
10. The term “swastika” never appears in the original Mein Kampf.
11. There is no evidence that Hitler ever used the word “swastika.”
12. The symbol that Hitler did use was intended to represent “S”-letter shapes for “socialist.”
13. Hitler altered his own signature to show his “S-shapes for socialism” logo branding. No one should stand for nor chant the Pledge of Allegiance because it was the origin of the Nazi salute and Nazi behavior (see the discoveries of the historian Dr. Rex Curry). The early pledge began with a military salute that was then extended outward to point at the flag (thus the stiff-arm gesture came from the pledge and from the military salute). The truth is amazing.