Paleooology (three o's in a row)
Theodore M. Kloba
encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
English]?
Web and newsgroup searches only turned up paleooology/paleooologist in
the context of this exhibit (Tiniest Giants).
References:
http://www.fieldmuseum.org/exhibits/tinygiants_tempexhib.htm
david56
>
> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
> English]?
This is surely a mistake. The part which means "study" is "ology", not
"oology". I've heard this before and I suppose it comes from zoology,
which is correct as the roots are "zo" and "ology", even though it is
abbreviated to "zoo" so people think the root is "zoo".
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "Theodore M. Kloba" wrote:
>
>> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
>> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
>> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
>> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
>> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
>> English]?
>
> This is surely a mistake. The part which means "study" is "ology", not
> "oology".
Yabbut... this is the study of ancient eggs, right? So we've got "paleo-",
'ancient'; "o-", 'egg'; and "-ology", 'study'. The study of regular eggs I
suppose would be "oology"; 'egg-shaped' is "oomorphic", and so on.
The thing is, I would have though at least one of these o's was epenthetic
and shouldn't show up when it's adjacent to a vowel (for instance,
"eulogy" isn't "euology"). How come all three are retained?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
K. Edgcombe
david56 <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Theodore M. Kloba" wrote:
>>
>> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
>> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
>> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
>> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
>> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
>> English]?
>
>This is surely a mistake. The part which means "study" is "ology", not
>"oology". I've heard this before and I suppose it comes from zoology,
>which is correct as the roots are "zo" and "ology", even though it is
>abbreviated to "zoo" so people think the root is "zoo".
You've lost the eggs.
Palaeology is the study of antiquity (palaeo + logy)
Oology is the study of eggs (oo + logy)
The study of old eggs ought therefore, apparently to have three o's. OED
doesn't recognise the word with either two o's or three.
Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit - compare
zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often turns up preceded by an
"o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
Katy
david56
You're right and I'm wrong. Bums.
Jean Fontaine
> Palaeology is the study of antiquity (palaeo + logy)
>
> Oology is the study of eggs (oo + logy)
>
> The study of old eggs ought therefore, apparently to have three o's.
And would Brits write palaeooology instead of paleooology ?
That would make 5 vowels in a row...
Harlan Messinger
>"Theodore M. Kloba" wrote:
>>
>> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
>> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
>> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
>> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
>> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
>> English]?
>
>This is surely a mistake. The part which means "study" is "ology", not
>"oology".
It's currect. The study of eggs is "oology", as in oh-OL-uh-jee.
> I've heard this before and I suppose it comes from zoology,
>which is correct as the roots are "zo" and "ology", even though it is
>abbreviated to "zoo" so people think the root is "zoo".
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Harlan Messinger
Because it's "-oo-" for egg, not "-o-". Paleo + oo + logy.
Harlan Messinger
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>>The thing is, I would have though at least one of these o's was epenthetic
>>and shouldn't show up when it's adjacent to a vowel (for instance,
>>"eulogy" isn't "euology"). How come all three are retained?
>
> Because it's "-oo-" for egg, not "-o-". Paleo + oo + logy.
But the o in "paleo-" and the second o in "oo-" isn't part of the root, is
it? Consider "paleontology", not "paleoontology". Why does the o at the
end of "paleo-" drop off in "paleontology" but not in "paleooology"?
Ben Zimmer
>
> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
> for that matter.)
More "ooo" words from the OED (all hyphenated):
cretaceo-oolitic
cuckoo-orchis
salpingo-oöphorectomy
salpingo-oöphoritis
zoo-organic
From the "Triple Letters" section of Jeff Miller's "Word Oddities and
Trivia" site <http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words7.html>:
--------
OOO. LAPAROHYSTEROSALPINGOOOPHORECTOMY (removal of the female
reproductive organs) appears in Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary. With hyphens
removed, Kaansoo-Oja, an Estonian populated place, becomes KAANSOOOJA.
SOOOTSA is a village in Estonia, literally "end of a bog" [Juozas
Rimas].
--------
The page on Miller's site lists many other triple-letter words (one
appearing in several unabridged dictionaries is GODDESSSHIP.)
--Ben
Mikael Thompson
"Aaron J. Dinkin" wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:47:59 -0400, Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>The thing is, I would have though at least one of these o's was epenthetic
> >>and shouldn't show up when it's adjacent to a vowel (for instance,
> >>"eulogy" isn't "euology"). How come all three are retained?
> >
> > Because it's "-oo-" for egg, not "-o-". Paleo + oo + logy.
>
> But the o in "paleo-" and the second o in "oo-" isn't part of the root, is
> it?
No, it's the vowel added after a stem in combined forms in Greek; it's not part of
-logy, which comes from logos, though since -logy only shows up in combioned forms in
English, it's natural that the combining o would be analyzed by English speakers as part
of a suffix -ology.
Mikael Thompson
R H Draney
>
>"Jean Fontaine" <jfon...@odyssee.net> wrote:
>
>>And would Brits write palaeooology instead of paleooology ?
>>That would make 5 vowels in a row...
>
>Yes.
Unless you've got a ligature at the ready, then it's "palćooology"...I think ć
is counted as one letter, no?...
Speaking of language and old eggs, is anyone conversant with "diner slang", that
charming cant that substitutes "Adam and Eve on a raft, wreck 'em" for "two
scrambled eggs on toast", or "whiskey radio" for "tuna salad on rye
toast"?...there was a contest several years ago in a magazine about Route 66
that ran for some time, asking the translation of the diner slang "gaskets and
elephant dandruff"...the question suddenly vanished in one issue so I assumed it
was finally solved, but I never heard the answer...best guess from those I've
asked is "pancakes with shredded coconut"....r
Michael J Hardy
is the Greek root in "zoology". So I'm looking at OED, and there
it is, and the first "o" is omega, and the second is omicron. So
it's not the same letter twice in a row in Greek. In our language
we have only one letter corresponding to those two Greek letters.
"Paleooceanography" is cute too, even if it's got only
two consecutive "o"s.
Mike Hardy
Ben Zimmer
"Paleoceanography", one o, is a far more common spelling.
--Ben
Michael J Hardy
Mike Hardy
Harlan Messinger
>In article <pmggju8qngvl13cvr...@4ax.com>, Harlan says...
>>
>>"Jean Fontaine" <jfon...@odyssee.net> wrote:
>>
>>>And would Brits write palaeooology instead of paleooology ?
>>>That would make 5 vowels in a row...
>>
>>Yes.
>
>Unless you've got a ligature at the ready, then it's "palćooology"...I think ć
>is counted as one letter, no?...
In English ligatures are just a typographical device. They're not
considered to be a single letter.
Joe Fineman
> Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit -
> compare zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often
> turns up preceded by an "o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
Mineralogy is a syncopated form. "Mineralology" would have been the
regular formation.
When something like that happens in English, I am inclined to blame
the French, but in this case I would be wrong.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Disillusioned, soon reillusioned. :||
R H Draney
says...
>
> Somebody in this thread pointed out that "zoo", not "zo",
>is the Greek root in "zoology". So I'm looking at OED, and there
>it is, and the first "o" is omega, and the second is omicron. So
>it's not the same letter twice in a row in Greek. In our language
>we have only one letter corresponding to those two Greek letters.
Break down the names of those two Greek letters, and you'll see that the Greeks
recognized their close relationship too..."o mega" = "great o", "o micron" =
"small o"...I've even seen the former transliterated into the Roman alphabet as
an overlapping double o in a context where someone wanted to emphasize the Greek
origin of whatever word was being discussed....
So if you applied this to "zoology" given the OED's etymology, it too would have
a triple letter (since I'm now informed that ligatures are not considered
uniliteral)....r
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Mineralogy is a syncopated form. "Mineralology" would have been the
> regular formation.
>
> When something like that happens in English, I am inclined to blame
> the French, but in this case I would be wrong.
It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I think,
though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
"libry" for "library").
Harlan Messinger
>ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) writes:
>
>> Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit -
>> compare zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often
>> turns up preceded by an "o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
>
>Mineralogy is a syncopated form. "Mineralology" would have been the
>regular formation.
>
How about "genealogy"?
>When something like that happens in English, I am inclined to blame
>the French, but in this case I would be wrong.
--
Michael J Hardy
> In English ligatures are just a typographical device. They're not
> considered to be a single letter.
True, but in former times (say 1000 years ago) they were
uniliteral in English. -- Mike Hardy
Michael J Hardy
> It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
> or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I think,
> though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
> "libry" for "library").
Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
mispronunciation was "libary".
Does anyone here have degrees in haplology and English ligature?
Mike Hardy
Robert Bannister
But how many people pronounce it 'minerology'? I think quite a lot.
--
Rob Bannister
Harlan Messinger
1,000 years ago, English didn't exist.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Aaron J. Dinkin (a...@post.harvard.edu) wrote:
>
>> It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
>> or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I think,
>> though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
>> "libry" for "library").
>
> Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
> mispronunciation was "libary".
"Libry" is a British version, in the same way "secretary" becomes
"secret'ry".
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "K. Edgcombe" wrote:
>
>> The "logy" root often turns up preceded by an "o" but not always -
>> consder mineralogy.
>
> But how many people pronounce it 'minerology'? I think quite a lot.
I do, but I think CIC effects render it equivalent anyway.
R H Draney
news:l2fhju0kl2d9o0v1o...@4ax.com:
> mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
>
>> True, but in former times (say 1000 years ago) they were
>>uniliteral in English. -- Mike Hardy
>
> 1,000 years ago, English didn't exist.
No, but Ænglisc did....r
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:l2fhju0kl2d9o0v1o...@4ax.com:
>No, but Ænglisc did....r
Or Englisc. More to the point, the digraph <ae> was only gradually
replaced by the ash ligature during the course of the 8th century.
Before ca.800 you're at least as likely to find <ae> as ash, though
after that date ash is normal.
Brian
Maria Conlon
Aaron J. Dinkin wrote
>Michael J Hardy wrote:
>>Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>>> It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
>>> or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I
think,
>>> though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
>>> "libry" for "library").
>>Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
>>mispronunciation was "libary".
>"Libry" is a British version, in the same way "secretary" becomes
>"secret'ry".
I believe you're right that that is how they pronounce those words, but
how are the words spelled? If "library" and "secretary," do you expect
that the syllables unspoken now will eventually be dropped from the
spellings? Or are shortened spellings already in evidence (other than in
written dialogue that attempts to show pronunciation)?
As for "paleooology," I will be surprised if that spelling survives.
Either "paleo" or "oology" will sacrifice an 'o' -- or a hyphen will be
added after "paleo." (And if either prediction turns out to be right,
remember you read it in aue first.)
Maria
Maria Conlon
Robert Bannister wrote
>"K. Edgcombe" wrote:
>> Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit -
compare
>> zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often turns up
preceded by an
>> "o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
>But how many people pronounce it 'minerology'? I think quite a lot.
Maybe those folks are talking about the study of miners, Rob. I do hope
they're using a long 'i'.
;-)
Maria
Aaron J. Dinkin
>
> Aaron J. Dinkin wrote
>>Michael J Hardy wrote:
>>>Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>
>>>> It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
>>>> or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I
>>>> think, though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry"
>>>> - maybe "libry" for "library").
>>>
>>>Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
>>>mispronunciation was "libary".
>
>>"Libry" is a British version, in the same way "secretary" becomes
>>"secret'ry".
>
> I believe you're right that that is how they pronounce those words, but
> how are the words spelled?
"Library" and "secretary", as far as I know.
> If "library" and "secretary," do you expect that the syllables unspoken
> now will eventually be dropped from the spellings?
Not really - spelling is too standardized and there are too many dialects
in which the syllables aren't dropped for the spelling to change. But just
because the spelling isn't changed doesn't make the syncopated
pronunciation of "library" any less an example of haplology. (I don't know
if it is one at all, but it isn't any less of one.)
John Holmes
"R H Draney" <dado...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ah9p8...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <pmggju8qngvl13cvr...@4ax.com>, Harlan
says...
> >
> >"Jean Fontaine" <jfon...@odyssee.net> wrote:
> >
> >>And would Brits write palaeooology instead of paleooology ?
> >>That would make 5 vowels in a row...
> >
> >Yes.
>
> Unless you've got a ligature at the ready, then it's "palćooology"...I
think ć
> is counted as one letter, no?...
Probably not, but if you want to get into the fancy characters, which
'o's should have a diaresis?
palćoöölogy?
palćoöology?
palćooölogy?
I think oölogy is correct without the prefix.
--
Regards
John
John O'Flaherty
wrote:
>ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) writes:
>
>> Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit -
>> compare zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often
>> turns up preceded by an "o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
>
>Mineralogy is a syncopated form. "Mineralology" would have been the
>regular formation.
AHD shows the suffix as -logy, which would suggest 'minerallogy',
only an extra L away from the existing form. Any way, it's a Latin
word with a Greek suffix, and if they they'd used a Latin root in the
egg thing, they'd have paloovology, which would be easier to read. But
I guess 'oology' was used already, forcing the choice. At least they
might have kept a hyphen in there, 'paleo-oology'.
--
john
Michael J Hardy
> > True, but in former times (say 1000 years ago) they were
> > uniliteral in English. -- Mike Hardy
>
> 1,000 years ago, English didn't exist.
"Old English" did, and, since I was speaking of the letter
"ash", i.e., the joined "ae", which was used in Old English, I
would think it would be clear that that's what I meant.
Mike Hardy
Michael J Hardy
funeral, I'll be sure to remember that that's how it's spelled.
Mike Hardy
Harlan Messinger
Well, it *was* clear, but we were talking about English. The gist of
your remark seemed to be that while the ae ligature isn't considered a
single letter in English now, 1,000 years ago it was. It wasn't,
because the language we call English didn't exist yet. The ligature
*was* treated as a single letter in *Old* English back then, and now,
a thousand years later, it is still treated as a single letter when
used in Old English.
Michael J Hardy
> If I ever have to deliver the palćoöölogy at a
> funeral, I'll be sure to remember that that's how it's spelled.
Oops. I meant of course theöölogy. -- Mike Hardy
Michael J Hardy
> Oops. I meant of course theöölogy. -- Mike Hardy
Oh, God. Can't I get anything right today? One more attempt:
"the öölogy"
I did not mean to imply anything about theöölogians or
theöölogical seminaries. -- Mike Hardy
Robert Bannister
Study of minors? They'd better not try that in Wales.
--
Rob Bannister
Maria Conlon
Robert Bannister wrote
Oh, phooey. I think I've been "whooshed." Why had they better not study
"minors" in Wales? (I'm assuming you changed "miners" to "minors" on
purpose.)
You know, they probably shouldn't try to study minors anywhere. Too many
language barriers.
Maria
Prai Jei
these o's (what are they called - diuretics or something like that : ) to
confuse German (and other) speakers coming across the words. A mix such as
paleoöölogy would totally boggle the average Finn!
A similar dilemma exists in naming of the ring-hydrocarbon of formula
C8H16 - three different organic chemistry textbooks have turned up
cyclooctane, cyclo-octane and cycloöctane respectively.
P.S. Do you know anybody from Invernessshire?
"Theodore M. Kloba" <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d382d96...@news.jump.net...
> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
> English]?
>
> Web and newsgroup searches only turned up paleooology/paleooologist in
> the context of this exhibit (Tiniest Giants).
>
> References:
>
> http://www.fieldmuseum.org/exhibits/tinygiants_tempexhib.htm
>
> http://www.nhm.org/tiniestgiants/sub_role/role03.html
Prai Jei
consecutive vowels to four.
"Jean Fontaine" <jfon...@odyssee.net> wrote in message
news:x2XZ8.1127$gM.6...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
Prai Jei
centre, colour, disc, foetus, honour, manoeuvre, tyre, &c. : (
"Joe Fineman" <j...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:wksn2fp...@TheWorld.com...
Aaron Davies
> I would imagine that there ought to be some dots put in above one or more of
> these o's (what are they called - diuretics or something like that : ) to
> confuse German (and other) speakers coming across the words. A mix such as
> paleoöölogy would totally boggle the average Finn!
>
> A similar dilemma exists in naming of the ring-hydrocarbon of formula
> C8H16 - three different organic chemistry textbooks have turned up
> cyclooctane, cyclo-octane and cycloöctane respectively.
I believe I saw a double "y" once in a compound containing multiple
triple bonds--a "polyyne".
--
Aaron Davies
Save a cow, eat a vegan.
<http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51494,00.html>
R H Draney
news:1ffocu6.10rwnmabjbbpcN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com:
> I believe I saw a double "y" once in a compound containing
> multiple triple bonds--a "polyyne".
In the absence of anything better, I'll take it...that just leaves the
double "j" (for which I find only the Arabic loanword "hajj") and the
double "q" and "x" (for which I find nothing) unaccounted for in
undeniably English words...it's fun to send people on a search for
double "v" and "k" if you can keep them away from online
dictionaries....r
Peter T. Daniels
revving and bookkeeper spring to mind instantly. Why are they a
challenge?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Robert Bannister
You must have forgotten the recent thread about paediatricians in Wales.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
news:3D3B1C...@worldnet.att.net:
> R H Draney wrote:
>>
>> In the absence of anything better, I'll take it...that just
>> leaves the double "j" (for which I find only the Arabic loanword
>> "hajj") and the double "q" and "x" (for which I find nothing)
>> unaccounted for in undeniably English words...it's fun to send
>> people on a search for double "v" and "k" if you can keep them
>> away from online dictionaries....r
>
> revving and bookkeeper spring to mind instantly. Why are they a
> challenge?
Because many people would come up with "savvy" (or "flivver") and
"chukker"....
Double letters seem to come in four classes: easy (double "r", "t",
"o"), challenging ("u", "i"), rare (often requiring dodges that some
will label unfair such as "j" and "w") and damn near impossible (the
"q" and "x" mentioned above)....
With "polyyne", "y" just moved from the fourth category to the
third...I'm ordering a pizza to mark the occasion....r
Tony Cooper
"Prai Jei" <pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aheq0j$fa6$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I would imagine that there ought to be some dots put in above one or
more of
> these o's (what are they called - diuretics or something like that : )
I take it you are taking the piss.
Does "diacritical" mean some complaint against the late Princess?
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:3D3B1C...@worldnet.att.net:
>
> > R H Draney wrote:
> >>
> >> In the absence of anything better, I'll take it...that just
> >> leaves the double "j" (for which I find only the Arabic loanword
> >> "hajj") and the double "q" and "x" (for which I find nothing)
> >> unaccounted for in undeniably English words...it's fun to send
> >> people on a search for double "v" and "k" if you can keep them
> >> away from online dictionaries....r
> >
> > revving and bookkeeper spring to mind instantly. Why are they a
> > challenge?
>
> Because many people would come up with "savvy" (or "flivver") and
> "chukker"....
So why are they a challenge? If many people would come up with words
(the second one has to do with sports, doesn't it?), what's the problem?
BTW <xx> occurs in the title of Roman Jakobson's article "Mufaxxama," on
"emphasis" in Arabic, and Saqqara is a well-known site in Egypt.
> Double letters seem to come in four classes: easy (double "r", "t",
> "o"), challenging ("u", "i"), rare (often requiring dodges that some
> will label unfair such as "j" and "w") and damn near impossible (the
> "q" and "x" mentioned above)....
>
> With "polyyne", "y" just moved from the fourth category to the
> third...I'm ordering a pizza to mark the occasion....r
Theodore M. Kloba
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>--------
>OOO. LAPAROHYSTEROSALPINGOOOPHORECTOMY (removal of the female
>reproductive organs) appears in Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary. With hyphens
>removed, Kaansoo-Oja, an Estonian populated place, becomes KAANSOOOJA.
>SOOOTSA is a village in Estonia, literally "end of a bog" [Juozas
>Rimas].
>--------
I wonder if the Juozas Rimas credited there is the Lithuanian
oboist... Or should I say "oboïst"? "oboeïst"?
Theodore M. Kloba
<pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>I would imagine that there ought to be some dots put in above one or more of
>these o's (what are they called - diuretics or something like that : ) to
>confuse German (and other) speakers coming across the words. A mix such as
>paleoöölogy would totally boggle the average Finn!
The "öö" puts me in mind of some Turkic words as well. My favorite:
Xöömei.
Prai Jei
ring-hydrocarbon derivative containing the >C=O group be referred to as a
cyclone? Or would the pedants among you require it to be a cycloone or
cycloöne?
"Prai Jei" <pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aheq0j$fa6$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Prai Jei
what looks like four consecutive L's.
Actually LL is a single letter in Welsh, and here we simply have a double
one.
"Theodore M. Kloba" <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d3c128a...@news.jump.net...
Lovecraftesque
> I would imagine that there ought to be some dots put in above one or
> more of these o's (what are they called - diuretics or something like
> that : )
I think it is dieresis, but I like your version much better :-)
Anyway, maybe I'll become an amateur paleooologist myself - such a cool
title is not something to be spurned.
Nigel Greenwood
> three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
> English]?
For those with a strong stomach, there's also the surgical procedure
Salpingooophorectomy (removal of Fallopian tube[s] & ovary/ies). Of
course the -oo- element is the same as in Pal[a]eooology.
Nigel
Douglas G Kilday
"Joe Fineman" <j...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:wksn2fp...@TheWorld.com...
>
> regular formation.
>
> the French, but in this case I would be wrong.
>
"minéralogie". The haplology occurred in French, not in English.
The haplology in "idolatry" goes back to Late Latin, where "idolatria"
represents Greek "eidololatria". Souter says that the shortened form "can
hardly be earlier in origin than saec. VI, though MSS. of authors earlier
than that century often give it."
Douglas G. Kilday
Mike Lyle
> Let's hope this doesn't stir up a storm of controversy, but could a
> ring-hydrocarbon derivative containing the >C=O group be referred to as a
> cyclone? Or would the pedants among you require it to be a cycloone or
> cycloöne?
>
No, cyclone is fine, but only in the Pacific region. Elswhere it's
hurricone, typhone, and sometimes monsone.
(Hope I haven't sent this before: once is quite enough, but my
BTOW-Google combination is misbehaving.)
Mike.
Sebastian Hew
> Strictly speaking we should write palæooology, reducing the number of
> consecutive vowels to four.
No... as has been mentioned before, that æ ligature is simply a
typographical device in English. It is not a letter and, for instance, has
no effect on alphabetisation. There are still five consecutive vowels in
'palæooology'.
Sebastian.
Radek
> With hyphens
> removed, Kaansoo-Oja, an Estonian populated place, becomes KAANSOOOJA.
> SOOOTSA is a village in Estonia, literally "end of a bog" [Juozas
> Rimas].
Once you get into obscure languages, you should mention Czech
"dooorat" (to complete plowing around). Unlike paleooology, it's a
word the average person will understand.
Radek
john hoskins
<pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> writes
--
john hoskins
john hoskins
<pvsto...@prai-jei.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>More likely one could blame the Yanks. Look what they did to aluminium,
>centre, colour, disc, foetus, honour, manoeuvre, tyre, &c. : (
>
>"Joe Fineman" <j...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
>news:wksn2fp...@TheWorld.com...
The Americans didn't do much to aluminium, rather they didn't like the
latest up-grade and sent it back.
"The ancient Greeks and Romans used alum in medicine as an astringent,
and in dyeing processes. In 1761 de Morveau proposed the name "alumine"
for the base in alum. In 1807, Davy proposed the name alumium for the
metal, undiscovered at that time, and later agreed to change it to
aluminum. Shortly thereafter, the name aluminium was adopted by IUPAC to
conform with the "ium" ending of most elements. Aluminium is the IUPAC
spelling and therefore the international standard. Aluminium was also
the accepted spelling in the U.S.A. until 1925, at which time the
American Chemical Society decided to revert back to aluminum, and to
this day Americans still refer to aluminium as "aluminum"."
>
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/scholar/elements/aluminium/history
.html
--
john hoskins
John Hall
There is a fellow living by a beach in Maui, rejoicing in the name
"Wittt Billlman".
Well, I suppose he rejoices in it. I doubt that it was bestowed upon
him by his parents, and assume that he constructed it for himself, so
if he's not rejoicing in it, it was not such a good deal.
FWIW He is " a musician and political theoretician ". I found a
reference to him an a book "The New Independant Home".
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Peter T. Daniels
The what? How do you transliterate from roman alphabet to roman
alphabet?
Yusuf B Gursey
: R H Draney wrote:
:>
:> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
:> news:3D3B1C...@worldnet.att.net:
:>
:> > R H Draney wrote:
:> >>
:> >> In the absence of anything better, I'll take it...that just
:> >> leaves the double "j" (for which I find only the Arabic loanword
:> >> "hajj") and the double "q" and "x" (for which I find nothing)
:> >> unaccounted for in undeniably English words...it's fun to send
:> >> people on a search for double "v" and "k" if you can keep them
:> >> away from online dictionaries....r
:> >
:> > revving and bookkeeper spring to mind instantly. Why are they a
:> > challenge?
:>
:> Because many people would come up with "savvy" (or "flivver") and
:> "chukker"....
: So why are they a challenge? If many people would come up with words
: (the second one has to do with sports, doesn't it?), what's the problem?
: BTW <xx> occurs in the title of Roman Jakobson's article "Mufaxxama," on
: "emphasis" in Arabic, and Saqqara is a well-known site in Egypt.
don't forget the company "Exxon". I remember ready that one of the motives
for choosing that name was that maltese (in which x is read as *sh*) is
(or was) the only language using the roman alphabet that had a double "x".
now azeri probably has it, where it is read as *kh*. a doubled x would be
found in arabic loans in that language. there are probably others.
Mike Oliver
> Because many people would come up with "savvy" (or "flivver") and
Just seeing that word starts the jukebox playing.
Each morning I get up with the Sun
To find at night no work has been done
Are those the silliest lines in popular music that don't
sound silly on first hearing?
John Seeliger
news:ah9dlk$m4c$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <3D3832D6...@ntlworld.com>,
> david56 <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >"Theodore M. Kloba" wrote:
> >>
> >> While at an exhibit at Chicago's Field Museum the other day, I
> >> encountered for the first time the word "paleooology," or the study of
> >> fossil eggs. [paleo + oology]. This is also the first time I've
> >> encountered any word with three o's in a row (or any trippple letter
> >> for that matter.) Are there any other documented occurrences [in
> >> English]?
> >
> >"oology". I've heard this before and I suppose it comes from zoology,
> >which is correct as the roots are "zo" and "ology", even though it is
> >abbreviated to "zoo" so people think the root is "zoo".
>
> You've lost the eggs.
>
> Palaeology is the study of antiquity (palaeo + logy)
>
> Oology is the study of eggs (oo + logy)
>
> The study of old eggs ought therefore, apparently to have three o's. OED
> doesn't recognise the word with either two o's or three.
>
> Incidentally, in "zoology" both o's comes from the "animal" bit - compare
> zoocentric, zoometric and so on. The "logy" root often turns up preceded
by an
> "o" but not always - consder mineralogy.
Then, why is it pronounced zoe-ology? Who is Zoe?
Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is hard, in gif,
it is soft. This came up recently in alt.www.webmaster[1] and the webpage
posted to answer the question[2] which now seems to be offline pointed out
that jpeg is not pronounced jfeg, even though photographers is pronounced
fotographers and it agued that acronyms are just that way. I think it also
argued that it was invented by geeks and geeks are that way.
[1]- <http://makeashorterlink.com/?G6B412B51>
[2]- <http://www.skizzers.org/andy/stuff/gif/gif.html>
--
John Seeliger Once again the forces of good and niceness
triumph over the forces of evil and
badness.
jsee...@yahoo.com -Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 of Control
John Seeliger
news:l2fhju0kl2d9o0v1o...@4ax.com...
> mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
>
> > Harlan Messinger (h.mes...@comcast.net) wrote:
> >
> >> In English ligatures are just a typographical device. They're not
> >> considered to be a single letter.
> >
> >
> > True, but in former times (say 1000 years ago) they were
> >uniliteral in English. -- Mike Hardy
>
> 1,000 years ago, English didn't exist.
Do you mean that Hollywood made that up about Moses speaking English in the
movie "The 10 Commandments"?
Ben Zimmer
> : "emphasis" in Arabic, and Saqqara is a well-known site in Egypt.
>
> don't forget the company "Exxon". I remember ready that one of the motives
> for choosing that name was that maltese (in which x is read as *sh*) is
> (or was) the only language using the roman alphabet that had a double "x".
I read that once too. When Esso executives were looking for a new
company name, they enlisted the help of the late Dmitri Borgmann, author
of _Language on Vacation_ and _Beyond Language_ and founding editor of
the magazine _Word Ways_. Borgmann no doubt knew about Maltese allowing
two consecutive X's.
Jeff Miller's "Word Oddities and Trivia" site adds:
-------------
http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words7.html
XX does not occur in any words found in ordinary dictionaries. However,
W3 has XX-DISEASE and the OED has WAXXEN (an old form of the verb, to
wax, to increase in size). Proper nouns containing xx include EXXON,
FOXX, MAXXAM, BEXXAR (a therapeutic antibody), and LEXXEL and VIOXX (new
prescription drugs). ZAXXON was a popular arcade game in the 1980s [Fred
Schneider].
-------------
--Ben
John Seeliger
news:3d38b5f9$0$3925$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> Aaron J. Dinkin (a...@post.harvard.edu) wrote:
>
> > It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
> > or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I think,
> > though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
> > "libry" for "library").
>
>
> Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
> mispronunciation was "libary".
Is that like "Febuary"?
>
> Does anyone here have degrees in haplology and English ligature?
>
> Mike Hardy
Raymond S. Wise
"John Seeliger" <jsee...@aaahawk.com> wrote in message
news:ahqc1e$od1$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> "Michael J Hardy" <mjh...@mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:3d38b5f9$0$3925$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> > Aaron J. Dinkin (a...@post.harvard.edu) wrote:
> >
> > > It's called haplogy - um, I mean haplology - when one of two similar
> > > or identical syllables disappears, and it happens all the time (I
think,
> > > though the only other example I can think of is "idololatry" - maybe
> > > "libry" for "library").
> >
> >
> > Never heard that one. I thought the standard childish
> > mispronunciation was "libary".
>
> Is that like "Febuary"?
>
In one sense it is: Both pronunciations appear in Merriam-Webster's
Collegiate marked with an obelus (division sign, ÷). The obelus is used to
indicate that although the editors consider these pronunciations to be
standard--equal variants--they are variants "that have been objected to over
a period of time in print by commentators on usage, in schools by teachers,
or in correspondence that has come to the Merriam-Webster editorial
department."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
david56
>
> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is hard, in gif,
> it is soft.
Not in Manchester it isn't.
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Harlan Messinger" <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:l2fhju0kl2d9o0v1o...@4ax.com...
> > mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
> >
> > > Harlan Messinger (h.mes...@comcast.net) wrote:
> > >
> > >> In English ligatures are just a typographical device. They're not
> > >> considered to be a single letter.
> > >
> > >
> > > True, but in former times (say 1000 years ago) they were
> > >uniliteral in English. -- Mike Hardy
> >
> > 1,000 years ago, English didn't exist.
>
> Do you mean that Hollywood made that up about Moses speaking English in the
> movie "The 10 Commandments"?
That was not 1000 years ago.
john hoskins
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes
the struggle for dominance of their language in Wales, to their eyes,
'Welsh-roman' and 'English-roman' appear to be different.
--
john hoskins
Raymond S. Wise
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3D4134...@worldnet.att.net...
I found it interesting that *The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary
of 1895, in its entry for "English," objected to the use of "Old English"
for what was previously called--and what they continued to
call--"Anglo-Saxon." Of course, the side of the controversy to which the
Century belonged eventually lost the fight.
Don Aitken
I have always thought that, while bilingual road signs make perfect
sense when a place has different names in the two languages
(Swansea/Abertawe), it is pretty pointless where the is really only
one name, which you then get spelled in two different ways, according
to the conventions of both languages (Cardiff/Caerdydd). This is not
done with all Welsh names (Llandudno is always Llandudno), but a name
of English origin has to be given a Welsh version, even if it is never
used anywhere except on road signs.
--
Don Aitken
Jonathan Jordan
Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:3d4182ad...@news.freeuk.net...
for Swansea, so I don't really see what's wrong with putting both on signs
(I think that they should use a different font, like the Irish do). Indeed,
in a bilingual region I think bilingual signs should be the norm.
I do see what you mean in cases where the Welsh form is just a name of
English origin spelt according to the rules of Welsh orthography, and the
place is in an English-speaking area such as Monmouthshire. I think there
may be the odd example of this.
Jonathan
John Seeliger
OK, I got it. English existed 3,500 years ago, disappeared and then made a
comeback? ;)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> John Seeliger wrote:
>
> > Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
> > hard, in gif, it is soft.
>
> Not in Manchester it isn't.
I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
John Holmes
"david56" <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3D411BBC...@ntlworld.com...
> John Seeliger wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is hard,
in gif,
> > it is soft.
>
> Not in Manchester it isn't.
Nor in Melbourne. In fact I don't think I've ever heard it as jif
anywhere.
--
Regards
John
Skitt
> david56 writes:
>> John Seeliger wrote:
>>> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
>>> hard, in gif, it is soft.
>>
>> Not in Manchester it isn't.
>
> I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I say it.
I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
M.J.Powell
Llanellen/Llanelen.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
david56
Or even "Cif" (yuk). There was a strange comedy serial on the radio a
couple of years ago - the main character's dog was called Jif Mousse,
but it wouldn't work now.
Don Aitken
<jonatha...@st-annes.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
>news:3d4182ad...@news.freeuk.net...
[snip]
>> I have always thought that, while bilingual road signs make perfect
>> sense when a place has different names in the two languages
>> (Swansea/Abertawe), it is pretty pointless where the is really only
>> one name, which you then get spelled in two different ways, according
>> to the conventions of both languages (Cardiff/Caerdydd). This is not
>> done with all Welsh names (Llandudno is always Llandudno), but a name
>> of English origin has to be given a Welsh version, even if it is never
>> used anywhere except on road signs.
>>
>Caerdydd is the Welsh name for Cardiff, just as Abertawe is the Welsh name
>for Swansea, so I don't really see what's wrong with putting both on signs
>(I think that they should use a different font, like the Irish do). Indeed,
>in a bilingual region I think bilingual signs should be the norm.
>
>I do see what you mean in cases where the Welsh form is just a name of
>English origin spelt according to the rules of Welsh orthography, and the
>place is in an English-speaking area such as Monmouthshire. I think there
>may be the odd example of this.
>
South Pembrokeshire, which has been entirely English speaking for
almost a thousand years, is full of them.
--
Don Aitken
Robert Bannister
> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is hard, in gif,
> it is soft. This came up recently in alt.www.webmaster[1] and the webpage
> posted to answer the question[2] which now seems to be offline pointed out
> that jpeg is not pronounced jfeg, even though photographers is pronounced
> fotographers and it agued that acronyms are just that way. I think it also
> argued that it was invented by geeks and geeks are that way.
Interesting. I have never heard gif pronounced with a soft g.
--
Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > david56 writes:
> >> John Seeliger wrote:
>
> >>> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
> >>> hard, in gif, it is soft.
> >>
> >> Not in Manchester it isn't.
> >
> > I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
>
> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/.
Like in "gibber", "giblets", "Gibraltar", "gin", "ginger", "giraffe",
or "gist". :-) (Looking these up, I was surprised to find MW list
/dZ/ is the first pronunciation of "gibbous".)
> That's the way I say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/,
> but I can't be sure.
The guy who invented the format is said to have said "Choosy
programmers choose GIF", playing on the commercial "Choosy mothers
choose Jif [peanut butter]", so he apparently used /dZ/. Supposedly
this is specified "in the specification", but I couldn't find it in
the original spec
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/spec/GIF87a.txt
or in either of the later versions kept at
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/index_en.html
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |detail....
(650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison
Skitt
> "Skitt" writes:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> david56 writes:
>>>> John Seeliger wrote:
>>>>> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
>>>>> hard, in gif, it is soft.
>>>>
>>>> Not in Manchester it isn't.
>>>
>>> I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
>>
>> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/.
>
> Like in "gibber", "giblets", "Gibraltar", "gin", "ginger", "giraffe",
> or "gist". :-) (Looking these up, I was surprised to find MW list
> /dZ/ is the first pronunciation of "gibbous".)
No, I thought it was a "gift" to us computer geeks. ;-)
>> That's the way I say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/,
>> but I can't be sure.
>
> The guy who invented the format is said to have said "Choosy
> programmers choose GIF", playing on the commercial "Choosy mothers
> choose Jif [peanut butter]", so he apparently used /dZ/. Supposedly
> this is specified "in the specification", but I couldn't find it in
> the original spec
I don't want peanut butter when I'm looking for pictures.
> http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/spec/GIF87a.txt
>
> or in either of the later versions kept at
>
> http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/index_en.html
Be that as it may, I say it as in "gift". People seem to understand and
don't offer me sandwich spreads.
Jess Kidden
said:
> John Seeliger wrote:
> > Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is hard, in gif,
> > it is soft.
> Not in Manchester it isn't.
Frank Jifford gave Jil Hodges a jift of a jif file? Jiv me a break.
Robert Bannister
> "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > > david56 writes:
> > >> John Seeliger wrote:
> >
> > >>> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
> > >>> hard, in gif, it is soft.
> > >>
> > >> Not in Manchester it isn't.
> > >
> > > I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
> >
> > I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/.
>
> Like in "gibber", "giblets", "Gibraltar", "gin", "ginger", "giraffe",
> or "gist". :-) (Looking these up, I was surprised to find MW list
> /dZ/ is the first pronunciation of "gibbous".)
The only word 'gibber' that I know is an Australian word for small rock or a
type of desert covered with such stones. It has a hard G. I too am surprised at
a possible soft G for 'gibbous'. A word that is frequently mispronounced with a
hard G is 'gesture' - I can't think why.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I say it.
>I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
Paul Pfalzner
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@it.net.au> wrote in message
news:3D41D664...@it.net.au...
> John Seeliger wrote:
>
>
> Interesting. I have never heard gif pronounced with a soft g.
But if it were spelled "gyf", would it not be pronounced as a soft g ? Why
does gy get pronounced differently from gi in English?
Or at least not consistently - cf gymnast and gynecology.
PaPf
>
Skitt
> "Skitt" says...
>> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I
>> say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
>
> Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
I'm sure I don't. /I/ is the one I wanted. Thanks.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The only word 'gibber' that I know is an Australian word for small rock or a
> type of desert covered with such stones.
Main Entry: gib搓er
Date: 1604
: to speak rapidly, inarticulately, and often foolishly
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To express oneself
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > > david56 writes:
> > >> John Seeliger wrote:
> >
> > >>> Maybe it is like gif. Though the g in graphic (graphics?) is
> > >>> hard, in gif, it is soft.
> > >>
> > >> Not in Manchester it isn't.
> > >
> > > I've heard it both ways. I learned it as /dZIf/.
> >
> > I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/.
>
> Like in "gibber", "giblets", "Gibraltar", "gin", "ginger", "giraffe",
> or "gist". :-) (Looking these up, I was surprised to find MW list
> /dZ/ is the first pronunciation of "gibbous".)
>
> > That's the way I say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/,
> > but I can't be sure.
>
> The guy who invented the format is said to have said "Choosy
> programmers choose GIF", playing on the commercial "Choosy mothers
> choose Jif [peanut butter]", so he apparently used /dZ/.
No, that would be an argument _against_ pronouncing it identically to
the existing brand name.
> Supposedly
> this is specified "in the specification", but I couldn't find it in
> the original spec
>
> http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/spec/GIF87a.txt
>
> or in either of the later versions kept at
>
> http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley/3453/gif_info/index_en.html
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> R H Draney wrote:
> > "Skitt" says...
>
> >> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I
> >> say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
> >
> > Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
>
> I'm sure I don't. /I/ is the one I wanted. Thanks.
If you're going to use phoneme slants, then /i/ is correct; English
doesn't have an /I/ phoneme. /i/ is [I] and /iy/ is [i(j)].
(But then you would have to write /j/. So R. H.'s complaint should have
been "Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the correct brackets
there?...r" (though I don't know what the "...r" signifies).)
Jonathan Jordan
> Skitt wrote:
> >
> > R H Draney wrote:
> > > "Skitt" says...
> >
> > >> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I
> > >> say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
> > >
> > > Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
> >
> > I'm sure I don't. /I/ is the one I wanted. Thanks.
>
> If you're going to use phoneme slants, then /i/ is correct; English
> doesn't have an /I/ phoneme. /i/ is [I] and /iy/ is [i(j)].
That surely depends on your phonemic transcription. Are you suggesting that
the transcriptions for RP discussed at
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/ipa-english-uni.htm
aren't phonemic? Most of them use /I/.
>
> (But then you would have to write /j/. So R. H.'s complaint should have
> been "Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the correct brackets
> there?...r" (though I don't know what the "...r" signifies).)
What are you talking about? Where would you have to write /j/?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3D4290...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Skitt wrote:
> > >
> > > R H Draney wrote:
> > > > "Skitt" says...
> > >
> > > >> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way I
> > > >> say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be sure.
> > > >
> > > > Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
> > >
> > > I'm sure I don't. /I/ is the one I wanted. Thanks.
> >
> > If you're going to use phoneme slants, then /i/ is correct; English
> > doesn't have an /I/ phoneme. /i/ is [I] and /iy/ is [i(j)].
>
> That surely depends on your phonemic transcription. Are you suggesting that
> the transcriptions for RP discussed at
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/ipa-english-uni.htm
> aren't phonemic? Most of them use /I/.
Americanist tradition, as codified by Smith and Trager over fifty years
ago.
If John is using two different symbols for the tense and lax high front
vowels, then his system is not minimal and thus not optimal. Oh, and
length isn't phonemic in English, either.
> > (But then you would have to write /j/. So R. H.'s complaint should have
> > been "Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the correct brackets
> > there?...r" (though I don't know what the "...r" signifies).)
>
> What are you talking about? Where would you have to write /j/?
[dZ] is not a phoneme. /j/ is a phoneme.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> The guy who invented the format is said to have said "Choosy
>> programmers choose GIF", playing on the commercial "Choosy mothers
>> choose Jif [peanut butter]", so he apparently used /dZ/.
>
> No, that would be an argument _against_ pronouncing it identically to
> the existing brand name.
Why? The argument is, the guy who invented the format and chose the name
for it chose the name /dZIf/, not /gIf/, and he ought to know what the
name is.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Jonathan Jordan
> Jonathan Jordan wrote:
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D4290...@worldnet.att.net...
> > > Skitt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > R H Draney wrote:
> > > > > "Skitt" says...
> > > >
> > > > >> I saw it written and automatically thought /gif/. That's the way
I
> > > > >> say it. I think I have heard someone say /dZif/, but I can't be
sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the right vowel there?...r
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure I don't. /I/ is the one I wanted. Thanks.
> > >
> > > If you're going to use phoneme slants, then /i/ is correct; English
> > > doesn't have an /I/ phoneme. /i/ is [I] and /iy/ is [i(j)].
> >
> > That surely depends on your phonemic transcription. Are you suggesting
that
> > the transcriptions for RP discussed at
> > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/ipa-english-uni.htm
> > aren't phonemic? Most of them use /I/.
>
> Americanist tradition, as codified by Smith and Trager over fifty years
> ago.
>
> If John is using two different symbols for the tense and lax high front
> vowels, then his system is not minimal and thus not optimal. Oh, and
> length isn't phonemic in English, either.
>
I'm not really qualified to argue with you as to what the best system is,
but I don't think you should attack people in AUE for using what are widely
accepted transcriptions of English.
The new Oxford transcription (the one that Prof. Wells doesn't seem to like
much) uses /E/ and /E:/. That looks like phonemic length. Also, how do you
deal with the widespread situation in northern England where "cat" is [kat]
and "cart" is [ka:t]?
> > > (But then you would have to write /j/. So R. H.'s complaint should
have
> > > been "Uh, Skitt, are you *sure* you have the correct brackets
> > > there?...r" (though I don't know what the "...r" signifies).)
> >
> > What are you talking about? Where would you have to write /j/?
>
> [dZ] is not a phoneme. /j/ is a phoneme.
So you use /j/ to mean the sound in "just"? Most of the world seems to use
it to mean the sound in "yes". And again, if you look at transcriptions
other than the one that you prefer, /dZ/ is widely used for the sound in
"just".
Jonathan