Is this Danish expression used in English?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

There is a Danish expression that is used a lot. It is completely
superfluous. Examples with English words:

That which we are going to do is to take ...

That which it means is an ...

That which we hope for is an extended ...

Can such formulations be found in English?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

We would replace "that which" with "what", but in that form it is very
common, but superfluous.


--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

My Theory, what is mine... </Mrs Elk, sorry Miss>


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Compare "I'm a person who [verbs]" with "I [verb]."

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Yes, they are everywhere.

Many of them are the fluffy phrases people use to buy a little time while they try to think
of exactly what they want to say and how they want to say it.

However, "That which we are going to do..." is simply awkward English.

A much better way to say it is:

"What we are going to do is..."

Even better:

"We are going to..."

bill

[bruce bowser]

Finally ending in: 'we gonna' (on a drunk, boozy, Friday morning at 3:00AM).

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 22 May 2023 13:00:23 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

The construction is sometimes used in the reverse: That which is not
illegal is legal.


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Hibou]

Le 23/05/2023 à 00:59, TonyCooper a écrit :
>
> The construction is sometimes used in the reverse: That which is not
> illegal is legal.

That witch is burning nicely.

[Dingbat]

The late William F Buckley Jr liked using THAT WHICH IS'
in flowery English with a mid/transAtlantic accent.

A surprising stat: His 1st language was Spanish, then' he
learned French and only then English. Scarcely believable
given his name but explicable by the detail that he was
raised in Mexico, France and then England. But that doesn't
seem a promising way to acquire a midAtlantic accent; did
he practice imitating FDR or something? The wiki doesn't say:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Buckley_Jr.>

[Peter T. Daniels]

He had a Connecticut accent. Just like Katharine Hepburn.
And his brother Jim, who carpetbagged to New York State
to run for the Senate and (briefly) succeed R. F. Kennedy (who
had carpetbagged from Massachusetts to run for the Senate)
and was, IIRC, .succeeded by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, also a
Massachusetts import. Most recently it was Hillary Clinton who
carpetbagged from Arkansas or DC to run for the Senate.

FDR's accent was upper-class NYC. It has most recently been
heard from the writers George Plimpton and Gay Talese, and
from Caroline Kennedy -- who, however, must have worked with
a speech therapist / dialect coach to expunge it and talk like a
normal GenAm-speaking New Yorker when she hoped to be
appointed to Hillary Clinton's seat and then to run for the office.

One's regional/social accent is normally fixed in one's mid-teens,
which is normally one's first opportunity to choose the social group
with which one chooses to identify.

[bruce bowser]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 5:30:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

I don't think he had a midAtlantic accent. I think he had a fake American accent.

[Lionel Edwards]

Mid-Atlantic a fake? Mid-Atlantic on the BBC ended with this
poptastic duo. Nobody dared speak it after this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZaKaz-jLK8

[bruce bowser]

People that leave the UK, come to North America and try to sound like it don't know when they sound fake. Just like the opposite.

[Dingbat]

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkatvkE8Zpw>
>
> and Gay Talese,
>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS-NDUxN3AY>
>
> and from Caroline Kennedy
>
What was Jackie's accent?
<<Listening to Portman’s Jackie is like the tingle of soda in your throat. It often
feels familiar, but in certain spots it pops and jumps. The way she lops off
the end of “bitter,” the funny hop in “artifact,” the way she rolls through
“remembered” — it’s like she’s invented her own unique way of speaking
English. But Portman’s delivery is accurate in the way it captures the former
first lady’s affect. And that might be the most impressive element of her
Oscar-nominated performance.>>
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman

AFAIK, AFFECT doesn't fit this context. AFFECTATION would but that's not
what the author means.

[Hibou]

Le 25/05/2023 à 11:32, Dingbat a écrit :
>
> What was Jackie's accent?
> <<Listening to Portman’s Jackie is like the tingle of soda in your throat. It often
> feels familiar, but in certain spots it pops and jumps. The way she lops off
> the end of “bitter,” the funny hop in “artifact,” the way she rolls through
> “remembered” — it’s like she’s invented her own unique way of speaking
> English. But Portman’s delivery is accurate in the way it captures the former
> first lady’s affect. And that might be the most impressive element of her
> Oscar-nominated performance.>>
> https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman
>
> AFAIK, AFFECT doesn't fit this context. AFFECTATION would but that's not
> what the author means.

'Affect' could mean 'affectation, trick', but this sense is labelled as
obsolete by the OED.

[Jerry Friedman]

This definition from the AHD fits, I'd say.

'n. (ăfĕkt′)
1. Feeling or emotion, especially as manifested by facial expression or body
language: "The soldiers seen on television had been carefully chosen for
blandness of affect" (Norman Mailer).'

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 6:32:20 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 8:17:49 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 5:30:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 12:13:17 AM UTC+5:30, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > > > There is a Danish expression that is used a lot. It is completely
> > > > superfluous. Examples with English words:

> > > > That which we are going to do is to take ...
> > > > That which it means is an ...
> > > > That which we hope for is an extended ...
> > > > Can such formulations be found in English?

> > > The late William F Buckley Jr liked using THAT WHICH IS'
> > > in flowery English with a mid/transAtlantic accent.
> > > A surprising stat: His 1st language was Spanish, then' he
> > > learned French and only then English. Scarcely believable
> > > given his name but explicable by the detail that he was
> > > raised in Mexico, France and then England. But that doesn't
> > > seem a promising way to acquire a midAtlantic accent; did
> > > he practice imitating FDR or something? The wiki doesn't say:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Buckley_Jr.>
> > He had a Connecticut accent. Just like Katharine Hepburn.
> > And his brother Jim, who carpetbagged to New York State
> > to run for the Senate and (briefly) succeed R. F. Kennedy (who
> > had carpetbagged from Massachusetts to run for the Senate)
> > and was, IIRC, .succeeded by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, also a
> > Massachusetts import. Most recently it was Hillary Clinton who
> > carpetbagged from Arkansas or DC to run for the Senate.
> > FDR's accent was upper-class NYC. It has most recently been
> > heard from the writers George Plimpton
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkatvkE8Zpw>
>
> > and Gay Talese,
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS-NDUxN3AY>
> >
> > and from Caroline Kennedy

(See if you can find her first appearance at the Kennedy Center Honors
broadcast -- it was really her first public appearance.)

> What was Jackie's accent?

The Bouviers were an aristocratic Virginia family, but presumably she was
sent to a Northeastern finishing school during the crucial mid-teen years
when one's sociolect is formed. Caroline was raised in NYC and went to an
elite finishing school in the city.

> <<Listening to Portman’s Jackie is like the tingle of soda in your throat. It often
> feels familiar, but in certain spots it pops and jumps. The way she lops off
> the end of “bitter,” the funny hop in “artifact,” the way she rolls through
> “remembered” — it’s like she’s invented her own unique way of speaking
> English. But Portman’s delivery is accurate in the way it captures the former
> first lady’s affect. And that might be the most impressive element of her
> Oscar-nominated performance.>>
> https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman

SO WHAT???????

Impersonating a celebrity is often a sure path to an Oscar nomination.

> AFAIK, AFFECT doesn't fit this context. AFFECTATION would but that's not
> what the author means.

No, "affect" is exactly correct.

The public appearance she was most noted for was her White House tour
after she refurbished it. Mrs. Onassis was a very private person. She worked
as a publisher's book editor, and championed causes like the preservation
of Grand Central Terminal after the disaster of the destruction of Penn
Station. Her celebrity was invaluable in creating landmark preservation laws
around the country and the world. NYC's high schools for the performing
arts is now the Jacqueline Onassis High School, and the one for music and
art is now the Fiorello LaGuardia High School (or vice versa).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Really? BrE is weird. "Affected" is the adjective for "affectation."

> but this sense is labelled as obsolete by the OED.

Alrighty then. </Jim Carrey>

[Dingbat]

I've found other appearances but not that one. Do you have the year of
her 1st appearance?

>
> > What was Jackie's accent?
> The Bouviers were an aristocratic Virginia family, but presumably she was
> sent to a Northeastern finishing school during the crucial mid-teen years
> when one's sociolect is formed. Caroline was raised in NYC and went to an
> elite finishing school in the city.
>

In origin, Janet Lee was Irish and "Black Jack" Bouvier was French. I seem to
recall its being suggested that an English pedigree was required in order to
be aristocratic.

>
> > <<Listening to Portman’s Jackie is like the tingle of soda in your throat. It often
> > feels familiar, but in certain spots it pops and jumps. The way she lops off
> > the end of “bitter,” the funny hop in “artifact,” the way she rolls through
> > “remembered” — it’s like she’s invented her own unique way of speaking
> > English. But Portman’s delivery is accurate in the way it captures the former
> > first lady’s affect. And that might be the most impressive element of her
> > Oscar-nominated performance.>>
> > https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman
> SO WHAT???????
>

This description suggests an idiosyncratic accent, not a standard accent.
Does any other description peg Jackie's accent as following some standard?

>
> Impersonating a celebrity is often a sure path to an Oscar nomination.
> > AFAIK, AFFECT doesn't fit this context. AFFECTATION would but that's not
> > what the author means.
> No, "affect" is exactly correct.
>

Very well, I haven't used affect this way.

[Peter T. Daniels]

How do you know "not that one"?

Either there's a database of such info, or there isn't. The broadcasts have
been on CBS from the very beginning. For years the emcee was Walter
Cronkite, and gentle political humor was provided by Art Buchwald.

> > > What was Jackie's accent?
> > The Bouviers were an aristocratic Virginia family, but presumably she was
> > sent to a Northeastern finishing school during the crucial mid-teen years
> > when one's sociolect is formed. Caroline was raised in NYC and went to an
> > elite finishing school in the city.
>
> In origin, Janet Lee was Irish and "Black Jack" Bouvier was French. I seem to
> recall its being suggested that an English pedigree was required in order to
> be aristocratic.

In Virginia, or in India?

My guess is that service to the CSA during the War of Northern Aggression
would count for more than oppressor of origin.

> > > <<Listening to Portman’s Jackie is like the tingle of soda in your throat. It often
> > > feels familiar, but in certain spots it pops and jumps. The way she lops off
> > > the end of “bitter,” the funny hop in “artifact,” the way she rolls through
> > > “remembered” — it’s like she’s invented her own unique way of speaking
> > > English. But Portman’s delivery is accurate in the way it captures the former
> > > first lady’s affect. And that might be the most impressive element of her
> > > Oscar-nominated performance.>>
> > > https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman
> > SO WHAT???????
>
> This description suggests an idiosyncratic accent, not a standard accent.
> Does any other description peg Jackie's accent as following some standard?

That is not a description of Mrs. Kennedy's / Mrs. Onassis's accent.

[Hibou]

Le 25/05/2023 à 14:55, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
> [...] BrE is weird. [...]

® PTD

[Peter T. Daniels]

Someone calling himself Hibou (solely to mislead one of the trolls)
claims that "affect" means "affectation." Is that not weird?

[bruce bowser]

Hibou means 'owl' in French. [so does 'Chouette']

[Hibou]

<https://www.cjoint.com/c/MECprAsCybB> (link valid 21 days)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Have you still not grasped that the person calling himself Hibou
is not French, but appears to be an Englishperson living in Scotland?

(If he's Scottish, I apologize.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

So you are mired in pre-Shakespearean English?

Modern unabridged dictionaries are committed to including every word
in Shakespeare and KJV -- but not, say, F. Bacon or. Marlowe (if they used
now-obsolete vocabulary) and definitely not Spenser.

[Hibou]

Tes excuses sont inutiles. C'est bien ça. (/Hoots/ mon! if I can put it
that way - owls in Scotland often do.)

[Hibou]

Le 28/05/2023 à 17:27, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 11:20:08 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 28/05/2023 à 14:30, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 1:25:18 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>>>> Le 25/05/2023 à 14:55, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> [...] BrE is weird. [...]
>>>> ® PTD
>>> Someone calling himself Hibou (solely to mislead one of the trolls)
>>> claims that "affect" means "affectation." Is that not weird?
>>
>> <https://www.cjoint.com/c/MECprAsCybB> (link valid 21 days)
>

> So you are mired in pre-Shakespearean English? [...]

Let me see. What did I say?

"'Affect' could mean 'affectation, trick', but this sense is labelled as
obsolete by the OED."

I meant 'could' as the past tense of 'can', but I acknowledge I could
have been clearer.

The 'mired' and the stuff about trolls are just your imagination.

Enfin, the quotation in the OED is just a snapshot. We have no gen on
how long this meaning was current.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 1:54:24 PM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 28/05/2023 à 17:27, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 11:20:08 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 28/05/2023 à 14:30, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 1:25:18 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >>>> Le 25/05/2023 à 14:55, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

> >>>>> [...] BrE is weird. [...]
> >>>> ® PTD
> >>> Someone calling himself Hibou (solely to mislead one of the trolls)
> >>> claims that "affect" means "affectation." Is that not weird?
> >> <https://www.cjoint.com/c/MECprAsCybB> (link valid 21 days)
> > So you are mired in pre-Shakespearean English? [...]
>
> Let me see. What did I say?

You defended the claim.

> "'Affect' could mean 'affectation, trick', but this sense is labelled as
> obsolete by the OED."
>
> I meant 'could' as the past tense of 'can', but I acknowledge I could
> have been clearer.
>
> The 'mired' and the stuff about trolls are just your imagination.

You don't find it odd that the bowser (a) writes to you and (b) runs
what he writes to you through Google Translate into French?

> Enfin, the quotation in the OED is just a snapshot. We have no gen on
> how long this meaning was current.

It is a unicum. It is not evidence that the word was in use in that sense.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 28-May-23 18:53, Hibou wrote:

> Enfin, the quotation in the OED is just a snapshot. We have no gen on
> how long this meaning was current.

I haven't seen "gen" used in that way for quite a long time.

I think of it as military in origin, but the equivalent Navy term was "dit".

--
Sam Plusnet

[Hibou]

Le 28/05/2023 à 19:09, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>
> You don't find it odd that the bowser (a) writes to you and (b) runs
> what he writes to you through Google Translate into French?

He does it for others too, in other languages, and he doesn't always do
it for me in French. I admit it's a practice I don't understand.

Quand bien même je serais francophone 'de naissance', je n'apprécierais
guère de telles traductions.

Native speakers find machine translations into their own language a bit
limping - and they can always seek their own from their favourite
translator if they need them.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 1:57:00 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 28/05/2023 à 19:09, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

> > You don't find it odd that the bowser (a) writes to you and (b) runs
> > what he writes to you through Google Translate into French?
>
> He does it for others too, in other languages, and he doesn't always do
> it for me in French. I admit it's a practice I don't understand.

He does it to JJ in Dutch. He doesn't seem to do it to anyone else, but
maybe he can't guess a language from which "Dingbat" or "bebercito" comes.