German pronunciation

[Tony Cooper]

This video:
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/

will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.

I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.

I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.

Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Ken Blake]

I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.


--
Ken

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> This video:
> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>
> will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
> pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
> properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
>
> I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
> speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
> think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
>
> I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
> it's alway bothered me.
>
> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 10:17:59 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 11:48:31 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

[pronunciation]

> > > I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
> > > it's alway bothered me.
> > >
> > > Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

> > When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
> > mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
> > which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time

s

> > and have to correct it.

> The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
> etc.

A native example is south/southerly, southern (formerly sutherne), according
to Wikipedia.

> It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
> with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.

Myopic/myopia, dystonic/dystonia... wait a second.

--
Jerry Friedman
Blow the wind southerly, southerly, southerly...

[Graham]

I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

[Rich Ulrich]

Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.

Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).

--
Rich Ulrich

[Tony Cooper]

I'll say this once to answer all who noticed it:

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.

[Lewis]

I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.

The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".


--
There are bad people on both sides

[Peter Moylan]

I noticed, but thought it was deliberate.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter T. Daniels]

TC isn't part of that "we." I gave him the opportunity to bitch about
my all-caps response -- but all he did was quote the one line that
had an obvious self-correcting typo and call attention to it.

"Pronounciation" is a natural product of fingers that are accustomed
to touch-typing and access "frequency tables" in the memory.

[Graham]

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

[Lewis]

In message <ftR3I.163932$rU.9...@fx39.iad> Graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-03-15 1:28 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>> In message <f1vu4gl1gubtin5rf...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
>> do.
>>
>> The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
>> "wise-end".
>>
>>
> That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".

> Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
> I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
> both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
> "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?

--
'You make us want what we can't have and what you give us is worth
nothing and what you take is everything and all there is left for
us is the cold hillside, and emptiness, and the laughter of the
elves.'

[Ross Clark]

Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.

[semir...@my-deja.com]

benl..wrote:

>Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
>in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
>In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
>for the student.

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?

Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 10:52:33 GMT, "semir...@my-deja.com"
<semir...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> benl..wrote:
>
>>Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
>>organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
>>"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are
>>left as an exercise for the student.
>
> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
> should be pronounced as in German?
>
> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>

or LieDl?
Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle from Lidl.

All Die or Al Dae?

> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
> Italian cities
> A good idea?
>

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Adam Funk]

Hypercorrection or something similar?


--
When Chayefsky created Howard Beale, could he have imagined
Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, and the World Wrestling
Federation? ---Roger Ebert

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.

French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

[CDB]

Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.

[CDB]

Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)

They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['sawD@m].

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 03:52:33 -0700 (PDT), "semir...@my-deja.com"
<semir...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>benl..wrote:
>
>>Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
>>in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
>>In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
>>for the student.
>
>What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
>be pronounced as in German?
>
>Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

In the UK there are two separate Lidl companies, Lidl GB and Lidl NI.
According to the companies' adverts on YouTube, Lidl GB rhymes Lidl with
middle but Lidl NI rhymes it with needle.

>
>That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
> A good idea?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Jerry Friedman]

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes I think, with moderation,
and if you take over a hundred years for it.
Dutch has done it wrt English.
Places like Nieuwkasteel and Haarwijk have been forgotten,
but Londen instead of London still exists,

Jan

PS And for our American friends: Zandhoek has gone too.

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2021-03-16 10:52:33 +0000, semir...@my-deja.com said:
>
> > benl..wrote:
> >
> >> Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
> >> in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
> >> In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
> >> for the student.
> >
> > What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
> > be pronounced as in German?
> >
> > Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
> >
> > That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian
> > cities
> > A good idea?
>
> Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

>but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
>
> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
> supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,

Jan

[Graham]

On 2021-03-16 3:43 a.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <ftR3I.163932$rU.9...@fx39.iad> Graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> On 2021-03-15 1:28 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <f1vu4gl1gubtin5rf...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
>>> do.
>>>
>>> The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
>>> "wise-end".
>>>
>>>
>> That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
>
> Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
> wrinkled".
>
>> Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
>> I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
>> both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
>> "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
>
> Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
> posh Brits?
>

No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.

[Lewis]

I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).

For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".

--
'And I promise you this,' he [Carrot] shouted, 'if we succeed, no-one
will remember. And if we fail, no one will forget!'

[Jerry Friedman]

Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?

[Peter T. Daniels]

invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

It wouldn't be surprising to hear "obessity" from someone who didn't
know "obesity."

Wijk and other sources have several words of that sort where AmE and
BrE differ.

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

> Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
> "enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
> "-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.

One has to take into account that each of these is less frequent than
"pronunciation", so it may take a long time to encounter one instance of
a divergent pronunciation.

--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03

[Quinn C]

* semir...@my-deja.com:

> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
> be pronounced as in German?
>
> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>
> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
> Italian cities

The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.

In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.

Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.

As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.

One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.

--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Close enough?

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
wrote:

That's a duck, not a chicken!

>
> You can't blame them.
> It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,
>

Can't even write proper.

> Jan

[Graham]

Also:
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue

[Ken Blake]

And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.


--
Ken

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:18:33 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* semir...@my-deja.com:
>
>> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
>> be pronounced as in German?
>>
>> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>>
>> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
>> Italian cities
>
>The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
>a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
>rarely apply to brand names, though.
>
>In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
>spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
>based on the original pronunciation.
>
>Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
>optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
>pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
>Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.
>
>As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
>that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
>IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.
>

The camera name video went through a long list of camera and lens
makers that would be unfamiliar to most people. Even as a person who
is very much into photography, and follows photography news, many of
those names were unfamiliar to me.

Ikea, though, would be a company name with a high degree of name
recognition in any group.

As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

>One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
>described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
>just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
>pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
>then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
>Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
>quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.

> Fountainblue

My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.

As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]:
[ʃɑɪ̯ə]).

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
...

> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
> people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
> affectation.

...

Or just as a mistake.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Graham]

When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.

>
>> Fountainblue
>
> My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
>
> As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
> Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
> isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]: [ʃɑɪ̯ə]).
>
>

I am originally from Suffolk so I don't speak Canadian nor (heaven
forbid) American:-)

[Tony Cooper]

Pronounced that way by some, but a bit of a difference in spelling,
though.

Some say "Noter Dame", some say "Nodder Dame" (short "o"), and some
say "Notra Dame".

[Tony Cooper]

No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense

is says that

"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 11:32:33 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 9:39:45 AM UTC-6, Lewis wrote:

...

> >> But I have certainly heard a lot of people
> >> mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
> >> )or French).
> >>
> >> For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
> >
> > Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on
> > NPR.
> >
> Close enough?

If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at the end.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

I've never heard the "Notter" version, but I'm sure you've heard the
university mentioned much more than I have.

For further evidence on the pronunciation of the second word,

Rally sons of Notre Dame:
Sing her glory and sound her fame,
Raise her Gold and Blue
And cheer with voices true:
Rah, rah, for Notre Dame
We will fight in ev'ry game,
Strong of heart and true to her name
We will ne’er forget her
And will cheer her ever
Loyal to Notre Dame

{Begin chorus, that is, the part that a lot of Americans know, at least
the tune.)

Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame,
Wake up the echoes cheering her name,
Send a volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all,
While her loyal sons are marching
Onward to victory.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

? You must mean "diachronic." The suffix in "national" that makes the
syllable in question third-from-the end is -al. I don't know whether
"nation" has -tion in it, but I doubt it.

Also you can see from abound/abundance that there don't actually
have to be two syllables after the affected one.

The basic, unstated, assumption of C&H's SPE is that every English-
speaker has Proto-Indo-European in their head, because their rules
recapitulate the historical development of the language -- as, in fact,
it's reflected in the spelling.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 3:15:15 PM UTC-4, Graham wrote:

> When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
> rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
> Notruh Darm.

?? Who would put an r into "Dame"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense
>
> is says that
>
> "Usage notes
> Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
> International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
> Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
> Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."

In other words, the folks who tell you what people _do_ use -- or rather,
did use 60 years ago -- say it's in use, and the folks who like to think they
have a right or duty to tell you what you _should_ do say otherwise.

They don't, however, get to decide.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>...
>>
>>> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
>>> people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
>>> affectation.
>>...
>>
>>Or just as a mistake.
>
> No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
> consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
> it.

That makes no sens!

A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

* Kerr-Mudd,John:

> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
> wrote:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Leghorn seems to have gone,
>>
>> But the chickens are still there.
>>
>>>but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
>>>
>>> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all

>>> supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.

>
> That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!

In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

--
... if you're going around with a red pen and apostrophe, you're
... trying to prove your superiority over people. But if you're
going around trying to use people's correct pronouns, ... you're
trying to connect with them and ... respect them.
-- Gretchen McCulloch on Factually!

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 11:21 a.m., Quinn C wrote:
> * Kerr-Mudd,John:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Leghorn seems to have gone,
>>>
>>> But the chickens are still there.
>>>
>>>> but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
>>>>
>>>> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
>>>> supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
>>
>> That's a duck, not a chicken!
>
> I think you're seeking quarrel!
>
> In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.

[Ross Clark]

It actually makes some sense as an English spelling (cf. cleanse),
though "lenze" would be better (cf. bronze). The -ns ending usually
signals a morpheme boundary (pens, cleans).

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 12:10 a.m., Adam Funk wrote:

> Hypercorrection or something similar?

Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 3:11 a.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:

> I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
> doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
> vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.

[Quinn C]

* Ross Clark:

One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it
as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed, I
can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother. The
problem is at the sending end, after all.

I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user of
German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews local
proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 5:07 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?

No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.

Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 2:27 a.m., CDB wrote:

> On 3/15/2021 11:48 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> This video:
>>> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
>>> pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
>>> properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
>
>>> I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
>>> speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
>>> think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
>
>> He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
>
>>> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
>
>>> I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
>>> it's alway bothered me.
>
>>> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
>
>> When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
>> mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
>> which is obviously false.  I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
>> to correct it.
>

> Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
> "enounciation" or "denounciation".  The verbs are spelled and pronounced
> "-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.

Certainly it is. But "Annunciation" is no longer related to "announce";
it's the name of a specific Biblical event. "Announce" and "denounce"
also have other nominalized forms available (with -ment). And is there
even a verb "enounce"? One wouldn't expect much analogical pressure in
these cases.

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 2:34 a.m., CDB wrote:

> On 3/15/2021 1:35 PM, Graham wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>> This video:
>>> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>>>
>>>  will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
>>> with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
>>> German names properly.  Only a very few of the items will be
>>> recognizable by most.
>
>>> I do have a question, though.  At about 50 seconds into this, the
>>> speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
>>> I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
>

>>> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
>
>>> I have heard the  "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
>>> and it's alway bothered me.
>
>>> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
>

>> I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
>> "sowthern" for southern.
>
> Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
> to Conrad Black.)
>
> They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['sawD@m].

I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in
the home-delivery field.

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/03/21 22:07, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 10:52:33 GMT, "semir...@my-deja.com"
> <semir...@my-deja.com> wrote:
left as an exercise for the student.
>>

>> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
>> should be pronounced as in German?
>>
>> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>>

> or LieDl? Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle
> from Lidl.
>
> All Die or Al Dae?

This seems to be a good place to insert a recommendation for "The Ballad
of Lidl and Aldi". It can be found on UTube, if anyone's interested.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/03/21 23:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2021-03-16 10:52:33 +0000, semir...@my-deja.com said:

>> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many

>> Italian cities. A good idea?
>
> Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
> be alive and well.

Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.

What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

We now know better, having been exposed to Nealopitain ice cream.

> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all

> supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

[Peter Moylan]

The usual reason. KMJ didn't specify a character set. Some people's
newsreaders guessed Latin-1, and got it right (this time). The ones that
assumed UTF-8 got it wrong.

[musika]

On 17/03/2021 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
> explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
> cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
>
> What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
> concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
>

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.



--
Ray
UK

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 05:54, Tony Cooper wrote:

> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
> people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
> affectation.

I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 06:00, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to
> say it.

I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 17/03/21 06:00, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to
>> say it.
>
>I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
>always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
>completely, of course.

The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue". It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
it. Many are mentioned in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach

[Ross Clark]

On 17/03/2021 4:54 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 17/03/21 05:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
>> people spell "lens" as "lense".  Not as a typo, but as a form of
>> affectation.
>
> I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
> technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
> heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
Not seen since 1200.

But maybe you'r thinking of a geological term:

to lens out (intr.): of a body of rock: to become gradually thinner
(along a particular direction) to the point of extinction (1921, 1965)

Of course in any field where there's a noun "lens" at work, a verb can
always follow.

> The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
> included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
> tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
> world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
> specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.
>

But less technical, more common, is the use to mean "film (v)", from
1940s, probably coined by _Variety_:

1950 Variety 22 Mar. 20/1 While the pic was lensed as a locationer
in Havana, little use has been made of the Cuban capital's natural
surroundings.

From that you could easily back-form a base "lense".

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 15:30, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 17/03/2021 4:54 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 17/03/21 05:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
>>> people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
>>> affectation.
>>
>> I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
>> highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most people
>> have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.
>
> There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'. Not
> seen since 1200.

I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.

That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It looks
as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens", without
going through a verb as an intermediary.

[Mark Brader]

Peter Moylan:

>> Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
>> explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
>> cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
>>
>> What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
>> concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

"Ray":

> You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally

> had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...

Well, that makes sense.

I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't know about your brain,
m...@vex.net | but mine is really bossy." -- Laurie Anderson

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[occam]

On 15/03/2021 16:35, Tony Cooper wrote:
> This video:
> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>
> will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
> pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
> properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
>
> I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
> speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
> think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
>
> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
>
> I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
> it's alway bothered me.
>
> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
>

The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video? His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.

More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.

The most amusing part of this video (for me) was the use of a typewriter
to spell out the names in question. It made me nostalgic for two-colour
ribbons, a luxury in its day.

[occam]

On 16/03/2021 18:33, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
> wrote:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>

>>> On 2021-03-16 10:52:33 +0000, semir...@my-deja.com said:
>>>

>>>> benl..wrote:

>>>>
>>>>> Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
>>>>> organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
>>>>> "pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions

>>>>> are left as an exercise for the student.

>>>>
>>>> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
>>>> should be pronounced as in German?
>>>>
>>>> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>>>>

>>>> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
>>>> Italian cities

>>>> A good idea?

>>>
>>> Leghorn seems to have gone,
>>
>> But the chickens are still there.
>>
>>> but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
>>>
>>> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all

>>> supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

>
> That's a duck, not a chicken!
>

I think you mean "That's a dog, not a wolf!"


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56299849

[occam]

On 16/03/2021 11:52, semir...@my-deja.com wrote:
> benl..wrote:
>
>> Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
>> in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
>> In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
>> for the student.
>
> What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
> be pronounced as in German?
>
> Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
>
> That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
> A good idea?
>

That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!

[semir...@my-deja.com]

occam wrote:

A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-03-16, Graham wrote:

> On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>> In message <To34I.30764$g%.11083@fx41.iad> Graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2021-03-16 3:43 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <ftR3I.163932$rU.9...@fx39.iad> Graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-03-15 1:28 p.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>>>> In message <f1vu4gl1gubtin5rf...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
>>>>>> "wise-end".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
>>>> wrinkled".
>>>>
>>>>> Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
>>>>> I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
>>>>> both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
>>>>> "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
>>>>
>>>> Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
>>>> posh Brits?
>>
>>> No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
>>
>> I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
>> mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
>> French).
>>
>> For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
>>
> Also:
> Poe-de-crème

I'll bite -- what's "Poe-de-crème"?


> Rizoatoh
> Coasta Rica
> Noter Daime
> Fountainblue

--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
---Calvin

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-03-16, Ken Blake wrote:

> On 3/16/2021 8:45 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.

Not by a non-rhotic speaker, I guess?


> And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.

That does grind my gears --- it's not like that /z/ at the end is an
exotic, difficult sound for English-speakers.

--
they're OK, the last days of May

[Adam Funk]

Fair enough.

--
No sport is less organized than Calvinball!

[Ross Clark]

Hey! I've never been to Florida, and I know of it. Am I in there?

[semir...@my-deja.com]

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 10:21:45 PM UTC, Quinn C wrote:
> * Kerr-Mudd,John:

> In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

(Heading off topic)

What a marvellous, if little used, encapsulation of "quarrel"
Two lots of speech side by side, one slightly bigger than the other!

[Peter Moylan]

There are plenty of people who know just enough about French to know
that a final consonant is often silent - but not enough to know that a
final mute 'e' cancels that rule of thumb.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-03-17 03:29:41 +0000, musika said:

> On 17/03/2021 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
>> explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
>> cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
>>
>> What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
>> concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
>>
> You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
> had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

That's true, I think, but why does French sometimes add an s to English
place names: Londres, Douvres, Cornouailles? This last can perhaps be
justified by the fact that France has a Cornouaille of its own.

>
> A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
> romanised as Neápolis.


--

Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I think that now Braunschweig _is_ the English name. It's on its way
there anyway.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

'tis a fine thing that and all.


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 19:34, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-03-16, Graham wrote:
>> On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:

>>> I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
>>> mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
>>> French).
>>>
>>> For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
>>>
>> Also:
>> Poe-de-crème

It's the way the French say "pot de crème".

It's also pretty much the way I say it.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Ross Clark:

>
>> On 17/03/2021 11:21 a.m., Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Kerr-Mudd,John:
>>>

>>>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>>>> Lodder) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Leghorn seems to have gone,
>>>>>
>>>>> But the chickens are still there.
>>>>>
>>>>>> but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all

>>>>>> supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.

>>>>
>>>> That's a duck, not a chicken!
>>>

>>> I think you're seeking quarrel!
>>>
>>> In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and
>>> the n.
>>

>> That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original

>> or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought

>> of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my
>> kanji dictionary.
>

> One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
> set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it

I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [à ?éýúíóáç] I don't.

I try adding a header.

> as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed,
> I can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother.
> The problem is at the sending end, after all.
>
> I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user
> of German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews
> local proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
> rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

OK I've cribbed Tony's header; though I probably use UK ascii ���£@`¬~#\

[J. J. Lodder]

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

> Peter Moylan:
> >> Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
> >> explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
> >> cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
> >>
> >> What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
> >> concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
>
> "Ray":
> > You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
> > had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...
>
> Well, that makes sense.
>
> I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
> (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
> passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
> pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?

Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 21:19, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Ross Clark:
>>
>>> On 17/03/2021 11:21 a.m., Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Kerr-Mudd,John:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:33:53 GMT, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl
>>>>> (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leghorn seems to have gone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the chickens are still there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that

>>>>>>> we're all supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in

>>>>>>> French.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a duck, not a chicken!
>>>>
>>>> I think you're seeking quarrel!
>>>>

>>>> In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and

>>>> the n.
>>>
>>> That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his

>>> original or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki>

>>> appears. I thought of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but
>>> can't find that one in my kanji dictionary.
>>
>> One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare
>> character set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader
>> to interpret it
>
> I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with

> 7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [� ?�������] I
> don't.

The catch is that é is not a 7-bit ASCII character.

> I try adding a header.

The header helps only if it tells the truth. I see that you've added a
header saying that you are using UTF-8. If you do that, you have to
manually insert the UTF-8 encoding for each non-ASCII character, which
would be a tedious exercise. As you can see above, the Chinese quarrel
came out correctly - because you quoted it from someone who did use
UTF-8 - but your accented characters didn't.

You might try using the following instead:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as Latin-1)
is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really producing.

[Peter Moylan]

Perhaps they thought the station name was "Beware of the lion", and
didn't make the connection with the city.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/03/21 14:29, musika wrote:
> On 17/03/2021 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
>> obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts
>> of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
>>
>> What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli"
>> and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
>>

> You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE

> originally had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

OK, good point.

> A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
> romanised as Neápolis.

Are you suggesting that English took the name directly from the Greek? I
can understand the Italians dropping the 's', because "Napolis" wouldn't
be an Italian-sounding word, but English must have anglicised the word
before the 's' had been dropped.

Or was there a period when the Italian name really was Napolis?

Ah, now I get it. Greeks lived there before Italians did. Now it makes
sense.

[Peter Moylan]

This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.

I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Yes. But they would not necessarily realise that "Lyon" was a major
place the trains went to from that station. They might guess that "Lyon"
referred to its location in Paris, or that the station was named after a
person with the surname "Lyon", etc.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 11:24:06 GMT, Peter Moylan

<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 17/03/21 21:46, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> You might try using the following instead:
>>>
>>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>
>>> I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
>>> Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
>>> producing.
>>
>> OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
>
> This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course)
is
> correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
> to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
> couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.
>
> I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
> character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
> discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
> Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
> character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.
>

Um OK a-e I can find: æ

Another one? æ
In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e œ

truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol ©
non TT NS San Serif æ©

Looks OK going out. (But it would!)

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 08:10:59 +0100, occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 15/03/2021 16:35, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> This video:
>> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>>
>> will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
>> pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
>> properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
>>
>> I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
>> speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
>> think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
>>
>> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
>>
>> I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
>> it's alway bothered me.
>>
>> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
>>
>
>The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
>English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
>video?

Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.

> His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
>language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
>even from native speakers.

Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.

>
>More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
>that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
>have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
>the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
>language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
>speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
>impediment or is a total dick.
>

The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.

Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.

*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.


--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[occam]

<space for delineation>

> My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
> lenses have Zeiss glass.
>

Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.

[CDB]

On 3/17/2021 12:52 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Ross Clark wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:

>>>> As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is
>>>> when people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a
>>>> form of affectation.

>>> I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
>>> highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most
>>> people have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

>> There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
>> Not seen since 1200.

> I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
> phenomenon well-known to astronomers.

> That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
> lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It
> looks as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens",
> without going through a verb as an intermediary.

I tried searching for "lensing" and "lensed". Sites that admitted they
could be verb-forms seemed to go with the infinitive "lens".

i didn't try "lenser", but that might be another avenue of approach.

[CDB]

On 3/16/2021 7:33 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
> CDB wrote:

>> Graham wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:

>>>> This video:
>>>> https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
>>>> will not have much interest to most people here because it
>>>> deals with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses)
>>>> with German names properly. Only a very few of the items will
>>>> be recognizable by most.

>>>> I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this,
>>>> the speaker says the word "pronounciation" as
>>>> "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I think he says it the same in other
>>>> place later in the video.

>>>> I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.

>>>> I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from
>>>> others, and it's alway bothered me.

>>>> Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

>>> I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
>>> "sowthern" for southern.

>> Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold
>> out to Conrad Black.)

>> They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['sawD@m].

> I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
> them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked
> in the home-delivery field.

I said it that way too, but was corrected more than once. The CBC
pronounced it with "ow" when the sale was in the news. Carleton
University has a Southam Hall with the same diphthong, and can be
presumed (I suppose) to have gotten their benefactors' name right.

All pretty shaky, though.

[Tony Cooper]

Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-03-17, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 17/03/21 19:34, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2021-03-16, Graham wrote:
>>> On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>
>>>> I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
>>>> mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
>>>> French).
>>>>
>>>> For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
>>>>
>>> Also:
>>> Poe-de-crème
>
> It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
>
> It's also pretty much the way I say it.

I'm not sure what the point was then.


--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. ---Banksy

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
> character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
> discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
> Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
> character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.

Xnews is simply not doing anything about encoding, so it produces
whatever the underlying "code page" is, i.e. Windows-1252 on an "English
Windows", Windows-1251 when using a "Russian Windows" etc. Of course
this is all just backwards compatibility stuff at this point, because
internally, everything is Unicode, but, well, Windows.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)