Estate Agents & "insider dealing"
Dave
agent from valueing a house, offering it to the market, either buying it
themselves and then selling it 3 weeks latter for 12% more ?
Also, if a purchase price has been agread with Mr A, can the purchaser
change to Mr B at completion for the same price as agread with Mr A ?
I would have thought that the price and sale agread was with Mr A and if Mr
A pulled out the sale had to start again with a new offer.
Any help please folks.............
Also, where does the solicitor stand in this .
The solicitor was recomended by the agent and failed to disclose the
purchaser had changed . Again , my suspicion is she was in on it .
eTOMd
news:3c8c6...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
the property or has any other dealings with a particular property other than
acting for the Vendor.
Dave
Is that allowed without my knowledge or consent ?
How can I establish the estate agents involvement other than a serious gut
feeling ?
"eTOMd" <Nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bt0j8.24004$yc2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
eTOMd
allowed to make decisions for you unless you gave him your consent to do so.
At all stages of the transaction he should have asked your permission
including that of changing purchasers. You solicitor would have known about
that change and again should have consulted yourself regarding the matter...
Dave
made a complaint to the agent.
All this seems to point towards a breach of contract with both the agent and
solicitor. What would be my best way forward now.?
I have considered an injunction to prevent the purchaser reselling the
property until this is resolved, or would I be wasting my time with this ?news:CV5j8.26510$yc2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
eTOMd
Make a decision as to what you wish to achieve by taking action.
Put it in writing (keeping a copy) to both the solicitor and the agent
informing them that you were unhappy and suspicious of your dealings with
them. Send a copy of your letters to the Law Society with a formal complaint
asking them to investigate. You could also contact the National Estate
Agents Association should the agent be a member but this would be unlikely
to resolve matters for you. You could also go to the Police informing them
that you think fraud has been committed.
Based on what you wish to achieve you should consult another solicitor to
give advice on the next best course of action to take.
Bystander
lawyers would pick up houses (often from executors) cheaply and sell them
on, often through a third-party stooge to cover the tracks.
Years ago an estate agent cousin of mine moved house about every six months
and ended up in a huge house that had cost him, in total, very little.
Dave
"Bystander" <templ...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:3c8dda1b$0$233$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
R. Mark Clayton
> But how does one get to the bottom of it and stop it ?
These days you can get Land Registry prints including the price.
--
R. Mark Clayton
munchkin
Dave,
There was a case in avon, Bristol area around 1990. The estate agent told
the vendor a low price, and agreed a sale to his brother in law. The vendor
got wise to this and I think sued the estate agent successfully for the loss
they had suffered.
I can't remember the full details sorry.
munch
Dave
who was involved. I don`to seem to be able to get a solicitor interested in
helping so it looks like I`m on my own. I do know one thing and that is I am
not going to let it drop. Its not the money, its the principle.
"munchkin" <munc...@munch.not> wrote in message
news:jl5k8.58602$yc2.6...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Bystander
"I am not going to let it drop. Its not the money, its the principle"
Plenty of people have used that exact phrase. Plenty of people have gone mad
and bankrupt as a result.
Principles are very very expensive. Take good advice.
munchkin
> This seems to be what has gone on here. The difficulty will be in proving
> who was involved. I don`to seem to be able to get a solicitor interested
in
> helping so it looks like I`m on my own. I do know one thing and that is I
am
> not going to let it drop. Its not the money, its the principle.
> "munchkin" <munc...@munch.not> wrote in message
> news:jl5k8.58602$yc2.6...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
You mentioned small claims court b4, you now have been told that small
claims is for claims of £5000 or less. If your loss is of £5000 or less
then I would suggest (i am not a lawyer) that you would have difficulty in
recovering that sort of amount, because of the nature of house sales, houses
are very expensive and vendors often drop their asking price to finalise a
sale. In other words an amount under £5000 would IMO be a normal
fluctuation on the asking and selling price.
What I would say you have to prove, is that the estate agent gave you an
abnormally low price to begin with, and that he was negligent in doing so,
but, you should have got a few estate agents in to give you quotes, then you
would have a better idea of the value of the house. (my brother recently
sold his house he got three estate agents in and was quoted roughly, £46K,
£48K and then £58K he went with the third one and eventually sold for £55K )
How long ago was the house sold? ( I ask because there may be a time limit
for you to submit a legal challenge ). You should ask other estate agents
how much they would have valued your house. You probably stand a better
chance on the change of purchaser without your knowledge, but on this point
I would ask what loss have you suffered? because you had allready agreed to
sell the house for amount, the only thing that changed was the name of the
purchaser.
If you have been outwitted to the tune of £10K or £20K then you have my
sympathies, but you will have to be very careful and take good legal advice
before proceeding. I can only repeat that if you think you have been
swindled out of £5000 or less then you can try the small claims court. I
think I am right in saying that you will not be liable for their costs if
you lose (Please check this). So you might as well try. But I don't fancy
your chances of winning.
munch
Dave
purchaser is a neighbour of the manager of the estate agents ! I still have
to confirm this but initial indications show they live across the road from
each other.
I am looking at the small claims court for a claim on the difference between
the first offer from Mrs E. and the full asking price at that time. This is
£4950 hence the small claims court. After accepting the offer from Mrs E. I
had another offer from a neighbour increasing by a few thousand. My argument
is if Mrs E. had pulled out of the sale and Mr S. resumed the sale it should
have gone to re negotiation. That being the case I would have accepted my
neighbours offer which was higher. As it was not re negotiated I believe I
lost out to a potential £4950.
I have been advised else to get a surveyor to work out a price at that
time and work from that. The property was sold at the end of January for
£100,000 yet 4 weeks later an offer of £112,000 was accepted by Mr S.
Although I could argue the case for aprox £10,000 it would seem easier to go
for £4950 through the small claims court and do the work myself. Even if I
do not win, the adverse publicity will do no harm. It may make others think
before rushing in accepting an offer.
"
munchkin
I agree with you, on the point of the purchaser changing, you should have
been notified and hence you would have re-negotiated a price with possibly
your nieghbour. If you can prove that the purchaser changed you most
probably have a case and you are *lucky* that the difference is under £5000.
And you are right to go for this amount rather than than the full £10,000 to
£15,000
But how will you prove the purchaser changed? no doubt you were told over
the phone by the estate agents that "mrs E has offered £95000" and later the
purchaser turned out to be Mr S.
Fronkensteen
> Are there any laws either proper laws or ethical, that prevent an estate
> agent from valueing a house, offering it to the market, either buying it
> themselves and then selling it 3 weeks latter for 12% more ?
1. An estate *agent* is exactly that; the seller is the principal and the
professional is his agent. The normal law of agency applies; you will have
a contract with him, plus (if memory serves) he has a fiduciary relationship
with you, e.g. has to deal fairly over and above the terms of the contract.
2. Your words are unclear; do you think that the EA arranged for a front to
buy the house, then sell it on, then pocket the difference and pay the front
a fee? That would be wrong on a number of counts, not least obtaining money
by deception, which would be a breach of the Theft Act and has serious
criminal penalties. It would be a breach of your contract with him, since
he is bound to find the best price for you (within reason) and if he was
aware of a purchaser who was prepared to pay more than you actually got,
then arguably you could sue in damages for the difference - *even if he
didn't make any money on the transaction himself*. If he did pocket cash,
again arguably, he holds that money on a resulting trust for you, and you
could ask for an account. [Technical - speak to a real lawyer.]
> Also, if a purchase price has been agread with Mr A, can the purchaser
> change to Mr B at completion for the same price as agread with Mr A ?
> I would have thought that the price and sale agread was with Mr A and if
Mr
> A pulled out the sale had to start again with a new offer.
> Any help please folks.............
You signed a contract of sale: whose name was on it? If you thought it was
Mr. A, and it was, then he bought the property. If you thought it was Mr.
A, and it was Mr. B - how did that happen? Are you saying you were
hoodwinked, or didn't you look closely at the contract? If the former, then
we are in deception territory again, if the latter, then your claim would be
'non est factum' (it's not my contract) of which would be impossible to
persuade a court simply because you didn't look carefully at the document
you were signing.> Also, where does the solicitor stand in this .
> The solicitor was recomended by the agent and failed to disclose the
> purchaser had changed . Again , my suspicion is she was in on it .
>
I can only say again, how do you say it happened that you weren't aware with
whom you were signing the contract? What do you mean by (later post) 'gut
feeling'? There can't be a gut feeling that you signed a contract with a
different person. Details as to how this switcheroo is supposed to have
taken place are necessary.
You say you can't get a sol interested: that rings alarm bells. In my
experience, solicitors are happy as Larry to sue other solicitors; sometimes
it seems like a bit of a game to them. If you can't get one interested, it
is certainly because either:
a) there's not the slightest suspicion that this happened anywhere but in
your mind and that's clear to any solicitor; or
b) the ones you've contacted think you're right but know that it could never
be established to a judge's satisfaction in court.
If a), see a counsellor or therapist. You are more likely to think it's
b) in which case you have the option of joining those noble ranks of people
who waste their lives and a hell of a lot of money (and I have seen one at
close quarters, sadly) in a fruitless quest to bring the edifice of the law
tumbling down around us. It ain't gonna happen. Your best bet is, move on
quickly. How much is it going to cost to instruct a surveyor? Would he
qualify as an expert witness in court - if not, you'd have to instruct
another? When did two surveyors agree on the price for a property - a 5%
difference is virtually guaranteed. It's all very nebulous to pin down and
difficult to prove.
Also, I doubt whether the small claims court would suffice for this: the
sols and estate agent are going to point out that there are criminal
sanctions available for what they are alleged to have done, and that will be
a strong argument for allowing the case to go up to the fast track where
they can instruct and (get costs for) competent legal advice.
Dave
"Fronkensteen" <vic...@sutton1.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1016369438.25690....@news.demon.co.uk...
I have made a lot of progress over the weekend. Although I am awaiting
confirmation, it would appear that the EA manager lives in the same road, a
few doors away from the person I believe bought the property.
When we signed the contract, we were told by the sol. the purchaser`s
details were omitted and would be added. In hindsight this is when we
should have walked away, but we signed.
I have asked the EA and Sol for contact details for the purchaser on at
least 8 occasions by letter but they are all hiding behind the data
protection act and will not tell me the details, ie address , of who bought
the property.
The EA and sol claim the 1st purchaser , Mrs E and the 2nd, Mr S are
partners. I have asked for some kind of confirmation of this but as yet
neither have confirmed this.
The EA was aware that my neighbour was interested in the property and
subsequently purchased it second time around at a 12% increase. After I had
accepted Mrs E`s offer my neighbour offered more but I was advised to stay
with Mrs E as the legal work had already commenced. On completion it became
apparent that Mrs E had changed to Mr S. If Mrs E had dropped out I could
have negotiated with my neighbour.
I did speak to a sol on Friday who would act but did say it would be
expensive. They also claimed to be aware of similar irregularities with the
same combination of EA and Sol. If it is going to be expensive then perhaps
you are right to forget it, but what about the next person they stitch up
???????
If I do not do anything then it will just carry on, hence my determination.
eTOMd
If the solicitor was aware of similar irregularities with the same
combination of Solicitors estate Agents then the answer would be for your
solicitor to contact the other parties and hopefully bring a joint action
against them.
Be aware that the estate agent could go bankrupt and therefore escape any
liabilities and the Solicitor struck of. The end result being that any
action on your part will only cost you money. Fact of life the law is an
ass.
Dave
Now that I have made the link between the estate agent and the purchaser,
Trading Standards are now taking me seriously. I have requested the file
from my solicitor as she is now avoiding my calls. I have given 24 hours
notice of my intention to collect the file. I am hoping to get more
information from other people who belive they have been a victim and try to
prove that it is not a onw off.
With regard to the finnacial aspect, this has now gone past that stage and
the money is of no real importance now. My aim is to highlight what has
happened, the solicitor to be disciplined as the law society see fit and the
estate agent prohibited from acting as an agent. If in the process I recoup
the difference between the asking price and offer then thats a bonus.
I have established that the "cartel" involves at least 3 independant chains
of estate agents and so far 1 practice of solicitors.
I am also considering making this a national issue and researching the
subject to see how widespread the problem is. Trouble with that is I will
need backing from the media in order to establish the extent of the problem.
But thats for another day !
Thanks for all the help everyone and like I side in the begining, I would
get to the bottom of it and I think I have.......
>