Shamrock vs. Kerr
Charlo
would be something like this.
Big John.... "let's get it on!!!"
Kerr flies across the ring slams Shamrock into the fence and commences to
pummel him for about 5 minutes. Ken, bloodied and bleeding, also in lala
land loses by tko...
during interview Shamrock claims the fight was stopped to early, that moon
wasn't quite right, he didn't train long enough, he's rusty. He really won
the fight, that the Lion's Den is the be all end all of fighting.
Kerr during interview...."I didn't think it would be this easy. I mean, I
didn't even break a sweat!!"
Burrito 11
using his strength and Shamrock using his subbmission knowledge. I see it going
the distance. The outcome I'd have to give Shamrock.
Savage Lizard
<XrJk3.24609$jl.22...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
> I would love to see Ken's return to the Octagon against Mark Kerr. The
fight
> would be something like this.
>
> Big John.... "let's get it on!!!"
>
> Kerr flies across the ring slams Shamrock into the fence and commences to
> pummel him for about 5 minutes. Ken, bloodied and bleeding, also in lala
> land loses by tko...
>
> during interview Shamrock claims the fight was stopped to early, that
moon
> wasn't quite right, he didn't train long enough, he's rusty. He really
won
> the fight, that the Lion's Den is the be all end all of fighting.
He'd probably claim that he was "destroying the Kerr myth (tm)."
--
Rob
direcpc
Maybe that guy with the white afro who beat Maurice Smith ?
Charlo <rrto...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:XrJk3.24609$jl.22...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> I would love to see Ken's return to the Octagon against Mark Kerr. The
fight
> would be something like this.
>
> Big John.... "let's get it on!!!"
>
> Kerr flies across the ring slams Shamrock into the fence and commences to
> pummel him for about 5 minutes. Ken, bloodied and bleeding, also in lala
> land loses by tko...
>
> during interview Shamrock claims the fight was stopped to early, that moon
> wasn't quite right, he didn't train long enough, he's rusty. He really won
> the fight, that the Lion's Den is the be all end all of fighting.
>
Mr. Snow
Oh i dunno, i think Shamrock's a pretty strong dude himself.
Aren't he and Kerr about the same height? What do they each weigh now?
I know that Shamrock has packed on a lot of weight since going to the
WWF.
Mr. Snow
>Who do you think could give Kerr a fight? Coutere? Severn? Abbott?
>Maybe that guy with the white afro who beat Maurice Smith ?
White Afro? Wha? Ron Van Cleif?
Mike Reid
pay to see him against:
Mark Coleman
Randleman
Pedro Rizzo
Enson Inoue (lets hop it happens)
Tsuyoshi Kosaka
Pete Williams
Gary Goodridge (Kerr would take him out though)
I feel these guys would all give him a run for his money espically Pete
Williams who I feel should be given the title shoot as he is capable of
defeating all the other heavyweights in the UFC
Mike
Mike
direcpc wrote in message ...
>Who do you think could give Kerr a fight? Coutere? Severn? Abbott?
>Maybe that guy with the white afro who beat Maurice Smith ?
>
Savage Lizard
<3793c2e8...@news.incentre.net>...
> WWF.
Problem is, he'd have to actually fight. Since Kerr is not a much smaller
fighter, Shamrock would not be able to sleep on him for a half hour. He'd
actually have to mix it up with a guy that has equal or better strength. I
think Shamrock would be Kerr's bitch. Unfortunately, we will never see
this fight. If Shamrock comes back, with the way SEG is stroking his
cock, he will get someone that he is fairly sure he can beat.
--
Rob
AirCh621
>fighter, Shamrock would not be able to sleep on him for a half hour. He'd
>actually have to mix it up with a guy that has equal or better strength. I
>think Shamrock would be Kerr's bitch. Unfortunately, we will never see
>this fight. If Shamrock comes back, with the way SEG is stroking his
>cock, he will get someone that he is fairly sure he can beat.
>--
>Rob
>
>
>
I agree. If Severe was able to bruise and bloody Ken's face, can you imagine
what Kerr would do.
JCalla5373
>what Kerr would do.
Yup. Shammy doesn't like fighting from his back.
Jimmie J
> "direcpc" <just...@notronniespector.com> wrote:
>>Who do you think could give Kerr a fight? Coutere? Severn? Abbott?
>>Maybe that guy with the white afro who beat Maurice Smith ?
>
> White Afro? Wha? Ron Van Cleif?
>
I think the guy w/ the white afro is Kevin Randleman.
Jimmie J
<post-yo...@deadlink.post> wrote:
>I have always wanted to see him against someone similar to himself I would
>pay to see him against:
>
>Mark Coleman
>Randleman
>Pedro Rizzo
>Enson Inoue (lets hop it happens)
>Tsuyoshi Kosaka
>Pete Williams
>Gary Goodridge (Kerr would take him out though)
>
>I feel these guys would all give him a run for his money espically Pete
>Williams who I feel should be given the title shoot as he is capable of
>defeating all the other heavyweights in the UFC
>
>Mike
>
>Mike
>
Kerr could beat Coleman because Kerr has better endurance. I think
Coleman would get the initial take down, but Kerr would eventually get
back up and then Kerr would be on top.
Randleman might go the same way. We know Randleman would tire out
eventually (like the Rutten fight) but would Randleman allow Kerr to
get up easily like an exausted Coleman would?
Pedro Rizzo, I don't know much about him other than he knocked out
Tank, which is impressive. How's he on the ground?
Enson Inoue I believe would give Kerr a really good match. I think
this would be very close and I have no idea who would win.
Kosaka, I think Kerr would beat him to a pulp. Kosaka hasn't really
showed strong submission skills.
Williams, I think Kerr would pound him too like he would Kosaka.
Goodridge doesn't stand much of a chance against Kerr. Only way I
could see win is for a KO early into the fight.
Does Coture fight? I'd like to see him take on Kerr. However, I
wanna see the Enson Inoue vs. Mark Kerr fight the most. (Well besides
a Rickson/Kerr fight but we all know that won't happen)
Burrito 11
Not nessicarrily
>espically Pete
>Williams who I feel should be given the title shoot as he is capable of
>defeating all the other heavyweights in the UFC
Damn striaght I've been saying this for months. I thinkit should be Williams vs
Randleman and then Pedro vs Goodridge(He has to have some chance at the belt he
deserves it) and the winners face and they are crowned the champion. Not Bas(
The bastard won one match and gets a shot at the title). As for Pete vs Kerr !
I think it may be the biggest upset ever. He suprised and shocked me by
knocking outColeman(What a fucking kick)
Savage Lizard
<19990720002807...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
> >Gary Goodridge (Kerr would take him out though)
>
> Not nessicarrily
Coleman took care of Goodridge pretty easily, I doubt Kerr
would have much problem with him.
> >espically Pete
> >Williams who I feel should be given the title shoot as he is capable of
> >defeating all the other heavyweights in the UFC
>
> Damn striaght I've been saying this for months. I thinkit should be
Williams vs
> Randleman and then Pedro vs Goodridge(He has to have some chance at the
belt he
> deserves it) and the winners face and they are crowned the champion. Not
Bas(
> The bastard won one match and gets a shot at the title). As for Pete vs
Kerr !
> I think it may be the biggest upset ever. He suprised and shocked me by
> knocking outColeman(What a fucking kick)
No way in hell Williams beats Kerr. I would bet a substantial amount of
money on that. Williams took out Coleman because he was gassed, I
doubt he would have that opportunity against Kerr.
--
Rob
MastaDre77
Randleman and then Pedro vs Goodridge(He has to have some chance at the belt he
deserves it)>>>>
Wrong!! It should be Rizzo vs. Randleman for the title. "El Mamon"
Pete Williams has to get in line behind Kohsaka for his title shot. Randleman
should already BE the champ and Rizzo is undefeated in the Octagon against good
opposition.
>> As for Pete vs Kerr !
I think it may be the biggest upset ever. He suprised and shocked me by
knocking outColeman(What a fucking kick)>>>>
You are such a Pete Williams nut-swinger it is sick. Face it, dude,
the guy isn't that good. Coleman poundedthe crap out of him for 10 painful
miutes, before he got that lucky kick in. By that time Coleman was ultimately
gassed. "El Maricon" Williams didnt prove anything that night other than he
has some stamina, which I'm sure someone like Gay Mezger can attest to, if you
know what I'm sayin.
It should be Rizzo vs. Randleman for the title, Kohsaka gets the winner
and Petey has to fight Coleman again. As far as Kerr vs. Petey, you are
dreaming. Kerr would wipe his own ass with "La Dura."
" As fArr as PeeTE wilLiAms gOs, I just kNOw he gAy"
-Mantay 3:16
Zach Powell
fight against the Middlewieghts, but what would he be able to do against people
like Colemen, Smith or Abbot.
Zach Powell
FTWHv...@aol.com
http://www.wrestlex.com - The #1 Wrestling Site on the Internet!
#1 Brawler on RSPWF!
Highest Ackolade: XBWL World Championship
Handler of:
"The Franchise" Johnny Rebel [UXWA (1-0-0), UPW (15-4-0), EWA]
veritech
direcpc wrote:
>
> Who do you think could give Kerr a fight? Coutere? Severn? Abbott?
> Maybe that guy with the white afro who beat Maurice Smith ?
I would say Coleman, since Kerr acknowledges him as the better wrestler,
but realistically Coleman wouldn't last past five minutes in a pure NHB
event. I think Kerr is just giving respect.
I pick Vovchanchin, to take out Kerr if anyone. A surprise KO from the
top. Igor can weasel off the mat sometimes so the match has time on the
feet. Beyond that, I really can't see anything happening. Perhaps Enson
or TK could pin a fast and well applied submission, but I really don't
see them having the strength. Erikson is just too slow IMO.
After all the guy is nicknamed the specimen and they call him the
smashing machine in Brazil. He's won every match he's had so far and
cruised through the Abu Dhabi.
Kerr is someone who may not be unbeatable, but is not overrated in his
rankings.
BTH
direcpc
veritech <webm...@webchitecture.com> wrote in message
news:3794603B...@webchitecture.com...
MastaDre77
>>>Lots of opinions in this thread but one thing is clear: UFC needs Kerr !!
>>>>
Without Kerr, whoever the UFC champ might be is simply a figurehead.
Andrew Jacobs
Savage...@yahoo.com (Savage Lizard) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
<3793c2e8...@news.incentre.net>...
burr...@aol.com (Burrito 11) wrote:
I highly doubt it It would probally be a slow and technical fight with
Kerr
using his strength and Shamrock using his subbmission knowledge. I see
it going
the distance. The outcome I'd have to give Shamrock.
Oh i dunno, i think
Shamrock's a pretty strong dude himself. Aren't he and Kerr about the
same height? What do they each weigh now? I know that Shamrock has
smaller fighter, Shamrock would not be able to sleep on him for a half
hour. He'd actually have to mix it up with a guy that has equal or
better strength. I think Shamrock would be Kerr's bitch. Unfortunately,
we will never see this fight. If Shamrock comes back, with the way SEG
is stroking his cock, he will get someone that he is fairly sure he can
beat.
--
Rob
Funny, but I seem to recall Ken beating Severn and Kimo who are
both big strong guys. In fact, both of them are bigger than Ken yet
Ken still beat both of them. I don't know who would win between Ken and
Kerr but I do know that Ken is capable of beating bigger guys because
he's done it before.
Elmore
Ken has not competed in NHB in about three years. When he did, his last few
fights he won by decision, or ref stoppage but then was unable to continue.
Ken fought Kimo, an unskilled, though strong man. Kimo is bulky, bulk burn
air, when you run out of air, you do stupid things. Kimo with his lack of
submission suffering fatigue was an easy target to a submission specialist.
Dan Severn, fought him, Dan fights like a wrestler. Ducks his head down a
lot. Notice how many guillotines Dan has had to squirm out of in his past.
Also, Dan is no spring chicken, when he fought Ken, he was 38. Age does make
a difference.
Kerr is young, at the top of his game. Has excellent all around skills. Is
an Olympic calibre wrestler and is scary strong for his size ( I know he's
big and he look strong, but he's stronger than his his build shows which is
scary) . Leg kicks almost as well as Mo and throws a mean knee.
Ken won't manhandle Kerr on any level. He may get lucky and catch Kerr with
a knee bar, I haven't seen anyone really try it yet. But in a stand-up
fight, Ken's in trouble. Ground fight, if Kerr mounts him, he's in trouble,
Kerr gets side control, trouble. If he manages to get him on his back, good
luck keeping him there.
Shamrocks good, but he would need to be at his best, and that was years ago,
and get a little lucky to beat Kerr.
Andrew Jacobs wrote in message
<18456-37...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
Andrew Jacobs
rrto...@sprint.ca (Elmore) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
Ken has not competed in NHB in about three years. When he did, his last
few fights he won by decision, or ref stoppage but then was unable to
continue.
Ken fought Kimo, an unskilled, though strong man. Kimo is bulky, bulk
burn air, when you run out of air, you do stupid things. Kimo with his
lack of submission suffering fatigue was an easy target to a submission
specialist.
Dan Severn, fought him, Dan fights like a wrestler. Ducks his head down
a lot. Notice how many guillotines Dan has had to squirm out of in his
past. Also, Dan is no spring chicken, when he fought Ken, he was 38. Age
does make a difference.
Kerr is young, at the top of his game. Has excellent all around skills.
Is an Olympic calibre wrestler and is scary strong for his size ( I know
he's big and he look strong, but he's stronger than his his build shows
which is scary) . Leg kicks almost as well as Mo and throws a mean knee.
Ken won't manhandle Kerr on any level. He may get lucky and catch Kerr
with a knee bar, I haven't seen anyone really try it yet. But in a
stand-up fight, Ken's in trouble. Ground fight, if Kerr mounts him, he's
in trouble, Kerr gets side control, trouble. If he manages to get him on
his back, good luck keeping him there.
Shamrocks good, but he would need to be at his best, and that was years
ago, and get a little lucky to beat Kerr.
I NEVER said that Ken would beat Kerr. In fact, I made NO
prediction of who would win this match. IMO, it would be a tough fight
for both men. I doubt that it will ever happen, not because Ken is
afraid of Kerr (note that Ken has already claimed that he would fight
him) or because SEG would want to protect Ken if he were to return to
the UFC (note that Perretti is offering Ken a fight in December against
Rizzo and Rizzo isn't any easy opponent by any stretch of the
imagination), but, because Kerr is not on good terms with SEG and he
is fighting in the PRIDE organization in Japan.
Andrew Jacobs
One more thing, the first time Severn fought Ken he was around 36
or 37 years old.
Burrito 11
>
>Ken has not competed in NHB in about three years. When he did, his last few
>fights he won by decision, or ref stoppage but then was unable to continue.
>
>Ken fought Kimo, an unskilled, though strong man. Kimo is bulky, bulk burn
>air, when you run out of air, you do stupid things. Kimo with his lack of
>submission suffering fatigue was an easy target to a submission specialist.
>
>Dan Severn, fought him, Dan fights like a wrestler. Ducks his head down a
>lot. Notice how many guillotines Dan has had to squirm out of in his past.
>Also, Dan is no spring chicken, when he fought Ken, he was 38. Age does make
>a difference.
>
>Kerr is young, at the top of his game. Has excellent all around skills. Is
>an Olympic calibre wrestler and is scary strong for his size ( I know he's
>big and he look strong, but he's stronger than his his build shows which is
>scary) . Leg kicks almost as well as Mo and throws a mean knee.
>
>Ken won't manhandle Kerr on any level. He may get lucky and catch Kerr with
>a knee bar, I haven't seen anyone really try it yet. But in a stand-up
>fight, Ken's in trouble. Ground fight, if Kerr mounts him, he's in trouble,
>Kerr gets side control, trouble. If he manages to get him on his back, good
>luck keeping him there.
>
>Shamrocks good, but he would need to be at his best, and that was years ago,
>and get a little lucky to beat Kerr.
>
>
>
Tim McNellie
> Ken won't manhandle Kerr on any level. He may get lucky and catch Kerr with
> a knee bar, I haven't seen anyone really try it yet. But in a stand-up
> fight, Ken's in trouble. Ground fight, if Kerr mounts him, he's in trouble,
> Kerr gets side control, trouble. If he manages to get him on his back, good
> luck keeping him there.
Even if Kerr would get inside of Shamrock's guard, and in all
likelyhood that's where it would go, Shamrock would be in trouble.
All Shamrock could manage against Severn was a death grip around the
neck, and once that was broken Shammy was eating elbows. The guards of
Shamrocks students have proven equally unimpressive.
Remember all the trouble Shamrock had with Severn in their second
fight, and consider that Kerr is much quicker, more versatile, and just
a better fighter than the Beast.
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Samoanpowr
likelyhood that's where it would go, Shamrock would be in trouble. >>
Agreed. If Kerr was able to pass Barretto's guard effectively he would have
little trouble with Ken's guard.....IMHO.
Samoa.
DrDewm
Haven't we all been down this road before?
lizard
> <<A>b, b>c and so on and so on.
> Haven't we all been down this road before?>>
>
guard than Ken Shamrock.
> Mark Kerr was able to pass Barretto's guard. If you had
to make an assesment
> of a possible matchup between Mark Kerr and Ken Shamrock,
Kerr's performance
> against Barretto's guard is relavent (sp?)
>
>
> Samoa.
While this is true Carlao Barretto fought Kerr in a
submission wrestling match not a NHB match. Whether being
able to strike would have made a difference is unknown in
this case as it wasn't possible. However folks who are
capable of fighting from their back have been able to
neutralize bigger stronger fighters. Could Ken do this to
Kerr I doubt it but I believe he would have a better chance
than many others as he actually knows what he is doing
unlike many of Kerr's NHB opponents.
Peace
Tony
Samoanpowr
Savage Lizard
<18456-37...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
Funny, but I seem to recall Ken beating Severn and Kimo who are
both big strong guys. In fact, both of them are bigger than Ken yet
Ken still beat both of them. I don't know who would win between Ken and
Kerr but I do know that Ken is capable of beating bigger guys because
he's done it before.
Then I wonder why he was scared shitless to even ATTEMPT
to fight with skinny little Royce.
--
Rob
Burrito 11
>to fight with skinny little Royce.
>--
>Rob
This makes no sense. He wanted to fight Royce in UFC 1. Then he wanted to fight
him again in the Superfight at UFC 5. You are just starting another little
Shamrock rumor. Also don't you recall him backing out of UFC 3 because Royce
did?Duh!
Savage Lizard
I guess I need to be a little more literal for those in this NG that
have a hard time understanding things unless they are spelled
out.
What I was alluding to was his 30-minute stallfest with Royce
during their second fight. I find it interesting that he fought that
fight like a scared bitch with his head and arms tucked in nearly
the entire fight. He didn't want to risk giving Royce anything.
Any intelligent person that watched that fight can see that,
regardless of which fighter they like. I personally didn't care
for either one of them at the time, so I think I was somewhat
objective. Shamrock, while being bigger and presumably
stronger did not "ATTEMPT to fight." Shamrock got lucky
and landed a shot on Royce after the impromptu stand-up.
Otherwise, we would have most likely seen another how ever
many minutes of Shamrock in the turtle position.
--
Rob
Arbianight
submission wrestling match not a NHB match. Whether being
able to strike would have made a difference is unknown in
this case as it wasn't possible.>>
ONLY HELP HIM. If Kerr could pass Barettos guard without punching, wouldnt you
expect him to do the same to someone with a weaker guard, plus he gets to
punch?
Samoanpowr
match not a NHB match. Whether being able to strike would have made a
difference is unknown in
this case as it wasn't possible.>>
This (IMHO) further proves my point. Barretto was unable to hold guard on Kerr
when he KNEW Mark couldn't throw punches. If punches are thrown into the
equation my opinion is that it only gets worse for a guy with a less technical
/ effective guard (Shammy).
<<However folks who are capable of fighting from their back have been able to
neutralize bigger stronger fighters.>>
Agreed. Ken hasn't proven capable of fighting from his back. Dan Severn (not
exactly a "power merchant" when it comes to punching) ended up in Ken's guard
and Dan did much damage. I don't see Ken as one of those "folks who are
capable of fighting from his back". At least he hasn't proven that in NHB.
<<Could Ken do this to Kerr I doubt it but I believe he would have a better
chance than many others as he actually knows what he is doing unlike many of
Kerr's NHB opponents.>>
I agree with you in your doubt that Ken could neutralize Kerr and that he would
have a better chance than many others. MOST of Kerr's opponents didn't know
what they were doing, but three of them had much more ground experience than
Ken. He submitted Otavio and Duarte and turned Gurghel's face into the
elephant man. Gurghel, btw, is much more accomplished in sport jiu-jitsu than
Carlao.
Samoa.
Arbianight
than
> Carlao.
Yes, but according to Jumpinmf, SJJ doesn't count for anything (haha).>>
You just proved Jumps point even more. Gurgel is a much better SJJ player than
Baretto, yet Baretto would kill him in NHB. If 2 BJJ guys fight in NHB, the
better SJJ player isnt assured of the win.
JUMPINMF1
- Bill
===
yes, let's try to keep perspective. jumpinmf has spoken.
Andrew Jacobs
samoa...@aol.com (Samoanpowr) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
wrestling match not a NHB match. Whether being able to strike would have
made a difference is unknown in
this case as it wasn't possible.>>
This (IMHO) further proves my point. Barretto was unable to hold guard
on Kerr when he KNEW Mark couldn't throw punches. If punches are thrown
into the equation my opinion is that it only gets worse for a guy with a
less technical / effective guard (Shammy).
<<However folks who are capable of fighting from their back have been
able to neutralize bigger stronger fighters.>>
Agreed. Ken hasn't proven capable of fighting from his back. Dan Severn
(not exactly a "power merchant" when it comes to punching) ended up in
Ken's guard and Dan did much damage. I don't see Ken as one of those
"folks who are capable of fighting from his back". At least he hasn't
proven that in NHB.
Kimo managed to get Ken on his back and a few minutes later Ken
had him tapping from a knee bar. I call that proof that Ken can fight
off of his back in NHB.
AirCh621
>little trouble with Ken's guard.....IMHO.
I thought he passed the guard once or twice, with much inactivity beyond that.
Nafets
still been practicing his kicks, punches and holds. I know it's been 3 years
since his last NHB fight, but he can only have got better after helping
Frank Shamrock to the success he's had, as well as training his other Lion's
Den members. That extra experience will have helped him to improve his own
game, particularly since the Lion's Den is always looking for new improved
techniques. From what he's been saying recently, it seems as though he wants
to prove to the doubters that he can cut it with the newer breed of NHB
fighters like Kerr. This may mean a move away from his old dull fighting
style, to a more exciting "Frank Shamrock" type NHB style.
AirCh621 <airc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990724210650...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Samoanpowr
tapping from a knee bar. I call that proof that Ken can fight off of his back
in NHB.>>
Ken did fight adequately off of his back in that one fight.........any others?
Nope. Besides, Kimo and Mark Kerr are a "little" different. Kerr won't gas
the way that Kimo did before Ken rolled 3 times in an attempt to get that knee
bar.
Dan Severn put Ken on his back and did FAR more damage to him than Ken did to
Dan when Ken had FULL MOUNT.
Samoa.
Bob Savage
news:14503-379...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> Kimo managed to get Ken on his back and a few minutes later Ken
> had him tapping from a knee bar. I call that proof that Ken can fight
> off of his back in NHB.
This also demonstrates that a fighter who people describe as a completely
unskilled street brawler can put a "submission expert" like Ken on his back.
How much easier would it be for Kerr to do, and to maintain top control?
Bob
JUMPINMF1
still been practicing his kicks, punches and holds. >>
ken shamrock is a known liar who will say anything to get attention, and
nothing he claims can be trusted.
>> I know it's been 3 years since his last NHB fight, but he can only have got
better after helping
Frank Shamrock to the success he's had, as well as training his other Lion's
Den members. That extra experience will have helped him to improve his own
game, particularly since the Lion's Den is always looking for new improved
techniques. From what he's been saying recently, it seems as though he wants to
prove to the doubters that he can cut it with the newer breed of NHB fighters
like Kerr. This may mean a move away from his old dull fighting style, to a
more exciting "Frank Shamrock" type NHB style. >>
ken shamrock has nothing to offer to the NHB world. he had little to offer
when he was actually a "fighter" but now he is just a WWF actor and a
laughingstock. i find any mention of him on this or any other fighting message
board offensive. he is a sellout and a fraud.
ZpoliceZ
How about come out from behind your keyboard and enter reality.
Perhaps Ken Shamrock isn't the best of today's fighters, but he dominated UFC
for a time, and that deserves respect...not excuses.
As far as entering the WWF is concerned, if YOU were ever offered several
hundred-thousand dollars a year to support your family by joining the WWF, I
would hope you would jump at the chance. That kind of $$$ sure beats Taco Bell,
or wherever the fuck you work.
DingleBreath
JUMPINMF1
did i stutter? yes. he is a bitch.
>> How about come out from behind your keyboard and enter reality. >>
take your own advice.
>> Perhaps Ken Shamrock isn't the best of today's fighters, but he dominated
UFC for a time, and that deserves respect...not excuses. >>
ken shamrock deserves nothing. he is a sellout and a fraud. and he has a big
fucking mouth too.
>> As far as entering the WWF is concerned, if YOU were ever offered several
hundred-thousand dollars a year to support your family by joining the WWF, I
would hope you would jump at the chance. That kind of $$$ sure beats Taco Bell,
or wherever the fuck you work. >>
you're the same kind of bitch ken shamrock is.
Samoanpowr
Barretto (while victories over guys like Gurgel and Bobish would be kind of
impressive, some of the guys Kerr has beaten were cans).>>
Ken would have trouble with Barretto (Ken's standup is no better than Carlao's
and the ground is a wash) Bobish (punches MUCH better than Ken and is a former
NCAA All-American Wrestler) and I strongly believe that he would have trouble
with Hugo. Hugo had some bad showings, but I think in a matchup with Ken he
would give him LOTS of trouble.
And if you are going to say that Kerr fought some cans..........look at Ken.
Pat Smith? Gurghel (one of Kerr's opponents) beat Pat. Royce? How good can
Royce be? You say he ducked Kerr. Leninger? LOL, Felicia Lee Mitchell??
Kimo? Undisciplined brawler label, Severn? Kerr would demolish Dan; look what
Coleman did. Brian Johnston? Bobish (Kerr opponent) smashed BJ very easily.
I know about the "a vs b vs c" thing; I am just pointing out that if Kerr has
fought tomato cans............Shammy has too.
Samoa.
ZpoliceZ
of bitch that could surely kick your ass, you
mark.
Andrew Jacobs
burr...@aol.com (Burrito 11) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
skinny little Royce.
--
Rob
This makes no sense. He wanted to fight Royce in UFC 1. Then he wanted
to fight him again in the Superfight at UFC 5. You are just starting
another little Shamrock rumor. Also don't you recall him backing out of
UFC 3 because Royce did?Duh!
Anyone who thinks that Ken was "scared shitless" to fight Royce
doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. Ken's game plan
against Royce at UFC V was a simple one. Lay on Royce and out condition
him. It worked too because Royce was clearly worn out and a bloody mess
after that fight while Ken was still ready to go and that's the bottom
line.
Tim McNellie
<Nafets...@pervasive2.com> wrote:
> If Ken Shamrock is a liar, sellout, fraud, laughing stock and a >bitch, then
I don't know about sellout, fraud, and bitch, but Ken certainly has
been a laughingstock. As for being a liar, he's not the only one.
Andrew Jacobs
liz...@hawaii.rr.com (lizard) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
Samoanpowr <samoa...@aol.com> wrote :
match not a NHB match. Whether being able to strike would have made a
who are capable of fighting from their back have been able to neutralize
believe he would have a better chance than many others as he actually
knows what he is doing unlike many of Kerr's NHB opponents.
Tony
---------------------------------------------------------------
Your last statement summed up the questions that I have about Mark
Kerr and that is the quality of his opponents. While I think that Kerr
is awesome and while I would be inclinded to rank him as the #1 fighter
right now if you look at his opponents the only guys that he fought that
were any good were Gurgel, Bobish, The Pedro, and, Daurte (I'd rate
Gurgel and Bobish as the best of the bunch) and none of these guys have
proven themselves to be among the very best of the best in NHB. I
suppose that one could say that he also beat Barretto but that was in a
straight grappling match and not in NHB (although it's still
impressive). This isn't completely Kerr's fault because some guys
ducked out of fighting him (Goodridge, Benataue, and, Royce Gracie)
and he missed fighting Enson Inoue due to injury and then when that
match was supposed to take place again Enson missed the match due to
injury. Hopefully, Kerr will fight Enson in the fall. If so, he will
finally be tested by one of the best proven NHB fighters in the world.
Kerr has yet to fight anybody as good as Ken Shamrock. Having
said this, if this match takes place (which it probably never will) I
still may be inclined to favor Kerr as being the winner just because
Kerr looks so awesome right now and because Ken has been on the
sidelines for so long. Kerr has superb takedowns and ground control and
good conditioning (unlike his buddy Mark Coleman) and has also greatly
improved his submission and striking skills by training with Rutten and
Ruas. Although, Kerr has still yet to be truly tested IMO. Ken
Shamrock would definetely be the toughest guy that Kerr has fought. I
think that Ken could beat every guy that Kerr has beaten thus far
including Barretto (while victories over guys like Gurgel and Bobish
would be kind of impressive, some of the guys Kerr has beaten were
cans). Kerr would probably be Ken's toughest opponent too but keep in
mind that Ken has fought tougher competition than Kerr (at least thus
far).
So let's say for the sake of discussion that Kerr did beat Ken.
Would that mean that Ken sucks? HELL NO! I can't think of too many
guys that would stand a really decent chance at beating Ken (assuming
that he is still healthy enough to compete in NHB which he apparently
is). Maybe Erikson could ground and pound Ken and open up a cut and get
a stoppage but Erikson has been sitting on the sidelines for almost as
long as Ken has and I don't even consider him to be a part of the NHB
scene right now. I doubt that Randleman could beat Ken. Randleman is
basically Mark Coleman with better conditioning and Ken is more well
rounded than Randleman and Ken is also strong enough and a good enough
wrestler whereas Randleman won't be able to bounce him around easily.
Kohsaka is good but he lost to Frank and supposedly Ken can still beat
Frank. Same goes with Enson. Couture can't beat Ken IMO. I don't
think that Ortiz could beat Ken either. I can't see Sakuraba beating
Ken. Maybe Vovchanchin could KO Ken while standing but that's the ONLY
way I could see him beating Ken. Same goes for Rizzo and I think that
his chances would be less than Vovchanchin's (note how Coleman took
Rizzo down and controlled him and keep in mind that Ken could do the
same and has better conditioning and is more skilled than
Coleman/although, Rizzo does have youth on his side which could be a
factor in his favor). Ken has already beaten Rutten twice but Rutten
has improved since then but I still don't think that Rutten could beat
Ken on the ground. Rutten's chances would be about the same as
Vovchanchin's with a KO while standing (note that I think that Rutten is
better on the ground than Vovchachin but I think that Vovchanchin may be
tougher to take down than Rutten). I don't think that anybody in the
lighweight division could beat Ken so forget Militech.
So basically, there are very few guys who have a chance at beating Ken
IMO (assuming he is healthy). Now of course who knows what would really
happen if any of these matches took place. I'm just basing my
assessments on what I've seen and heard (which is a lot).
MastaDre77
>>>>ken shamrock has nothing to offer to the NHB world. he had little to
offer
when he was actually a "fighter" but now he is just a WWF actor and a
laughingstock. i find any mention of him on this or any other fighting message
LOL! If anything, Ken Shamrock's return to the UFC could only help
it. The idea here, I believe, is to have Ken back into the Octagon, advertise
it on the WWF shows, and have even more viewers (the WWF fans) watching the
show. It sounds like a pretty good marketing strategy to attract more viewers.
Sure, the true UFC fans have already seen him fight, and we might not
be as excited to see him back in there, but there are plenty of WWF fans who
haven't seen him fight for real, and would be willling to pay to watch.
Personally, I think Shamrock is helping the UFC by coming back.
Nafets
JUMPINMF1 <jump...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990725025455...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
> >> In an interview (not sure when - maybe 6 months ago), Ken said that
he's
> still been practicing his kicks, punches and holds. >>
>
> ken shamrock is a known liar who will say anything to get attention, and
> nothing he claims can be trusted.
>
> >> I know it's been 3 years since his last NHB fight, but he can only have
got
> better after helping
> Frank Shamrock to the success he's had, as well as training his other
Lion's
> Den members. That extra experience will have helped him to improve his own
> game, particularly since the Lion's Den is always looking for new improved
> techniques. From what he's been saying recently, it seems as though he
wants to
> prove to the doubters that he can cut it with the newer breed of NHB
fighters
> like Kerr. This may mean a move away from his old dull fighting style, to
a
> more exciting "Frank Shamrock" type NHB style. >>
>
Triangle Choke
think it's sad how jealous he is of Ken and he even calls him a bitch. I
remember this Brazilian fighter that fought like oh about 5yrs ago, but I
haven't seen his punk ass back, I guess he was complaining and whining about
time limits and I heard a little evil troll looking guy choked him
unconscience. Then I heard he was going to fight in pride over a well over a
year ago and he was injured and couldn't fight, well now it's been a long
time and I think he should be all healed up, but I never see his name pop up
for any upcoming fights, there's not even rumors that he's going to fight
again, so I ask the question, who's the sellout and fraud? or bitch as jumpy
would say. I think I recall he said put the Devil in the ring and he'll
fight, and I don't think there's nobody in this world as tough as the Devil.
I hope that little scared guy comes back to fight again, but he won't, he
knows everyone has learned to play his game now, unlike back in 1993.
JUMPINMF1 wrote in message <19990725050131...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
JUMPINMF1
of bitch that could surely kick your ass, you mark.
Tom
<A HREF="http://www.zodiackiller.com">http://www.zodiackiller.com</A>
===
well here's something new. an asshole who doesn't even know me getting nasty
and talking big about kicking my ass... because i insulted ken shamrock. LMAO
you fucking pinhead, if i was a crackpot like you, i'd keep it to myself, not
advertise it on a web site. go obsess some more on a twisted freak and leave
NHB to people who understand it.
(for an idea of what kind of a fucking loser this guy is, go to his website
where you can see such fascinating things as photographs of a restaraunt where
one of the zodiac killer's victims once worked. tom has obviously put alot of
time and effort into his morbid obsession.)
no life, obsessed with bullshit, all mouth... typical shamrock fan. LMAO
hey... sudden thought... maybe YOU are the zodiac killer... if so... come to my
house... i'll treat you to the fine metallic taste of 00 buckshot.
JUMPINMF1
doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. Ken's game plan
against Royce at UFC V was a simple one. Lay on Royce and out condition
him. It worked too because Royce was clearly worn out and a bloody mess
after that fight while Ken was still ready to go and that's the bottom
line.
andrew, fucking get over it. ken lost to royce, and failed again the second
time. you making excuses and fabricating "game plans" for him doesn't change
that fact that he was never up to royce's level, and never will be.
yes, facts are sometimes hard to accept, but your hero lost to royce, and then
made a shameful chickenshit ass of himself on the second time around.
quit kissing shammy's ass just because he's in the WWF, which you consider to
be the same thing as the UFC -- "professional wrestling" LMAO
Mike Reid
MastaDre77 wrote in message
<19990725134050...@ng-fh1.news.cs.com>...
>
> >>>>ken shamrock has nothing to offer to the NHB world. he had little
to
>offer
>when he was actually a "fighter" but now he is just a WWF actor and a
>laughingstock. i find any mention of him on this or any other fighting
message
>
> LOL! If anything, Ken Shamrock's return to the UFC could only
help
>it. The idea here, I believe, is to have Ken back into the Octagon,
advertise
>it on the WWF shows, and have even more viewers (the WWF fans) watching the
>show. It sounds like a pretty good marketing strategy to attract more
viewers.
>
> Sure, the true UFC fans have already seen him fight, and we might
not
>be as excited to see him back in there, but there are plenty of WWF fans
who
>haven't seen him fight for real, and would be willling to pay to watch.
>Personally, I think Shamrock is helping the UFC by coming back.
hey, but why should Jumpy care, I thought he stopped watching the UFC
after the Ultimate Ken Shamrock.
Mike
JUMPINMF1
===
there's nothing odd about despising assholes, billiam, especially assholes who
talk shit about people you admire.
think about it. i believe the words ken used in his richly deserved "ultimate
shamrock" show when lying about the second fight with royce were "i beat his
monkey ass."
is it really that hard to understand how such a person would inspire disgust
and contempt, billiam?
JUMPINMF1
after the Ultimate Ken Shamrock.
minor correction mike... i stopped watching BEFORE ultimate shamrock. that was
the last fucking straw for me.
Nafets
> think about it. i believe the words ken used in his richly deserved
"ultimate
> shamrock" show when lying about the second fight with royce were "i beat
his
> monkey ass."
Ken wasn't referring to the result of the fight, but to the beating he gave
to Royce's face and body: hence collectively, "his monkey ass". And Royce
hasn't fought NHB since then.
Try again.
MastaDre77
>>>>hey... sudden thought... maybe YOU are the zodiac killer... if so...
come to my
house... i'll treat you to the fine metallic taste of 00 buckshot.
>>>>
LMFAO!!
ZpoliceZ
http://www.zodiackiller.com
lizard
OK If you no longer watch the UFC then why do you post here?
This is a news group who's main subject matter is the UFC.
Not the first five UFC's but the UFC at the present time.
Maybe you need to start your own newsgroup and call it
alt.ufc.firstfive or better yet alt.ufc.royce since that
seems to be all you really want to discuss and it got old 2
years ago here. Think about it.
Peace
Tony
Andrew Jacobs
jump...@aol.com (JUMPINMF1) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
Yes, Ken did lose to Royce back in '93 when he was just starting
out in NHB and was not familiar with BJJ. Maybe Royce just "got lucky"
and "won the lottery" as Royce claims that Wallid did when he was beaten
by Wallid.
And no, I'm not the one "making excuses" or "fabricating game plans",
I'm just basically stating FACTS and it's a FACT that being in better
condition than your opponent can be your best submission hold and it's a
FACT that Royce worn out and bloodied at the end of UFC V and that Ken
was in better condition. Anyone who thinks that Royce was in better
condition at the end of that fight is a moron.
Ken is NOT my "hero". I'm not some pathetic crybaby that needs to
have heros to save my life like some people around here. I don't think
that Ken is some kind of superman. I know that he can be beaten just
like anybody else. And I don't call fighting somebody, out
conditioning them, and, bloodying up their face to be "shameful
chickenshit" actions. What I would call "shameful chickenshit" actions
is somebody that refuses to fight somebody and comes up with all kinds
of excuses about time limits and money and mysterious back injuries. If
you are going to fight, fight, or shut the fuck up.
I thought that Ken got the best of Royce right after watching the
match live on PPV back in 4/95. This was 2 years BEFORE Ken was in the
WWF so don't give me any of this bullshit that I'm kissing Ken's ass
because he's in the WWF. Before the UFC came along I didn't even know
who Ken Shamrock was. I was unfamiliar with his "pro wrestling"
background at the time of UFC V. I watched the fight objectively and
what I saw was two guys in a boring stallfest with Ken coming out of it
in better shape than Royce. And I have NEVER said that the UFC is the
same thing as the WWF. That is a complete LIE. Sure, I've said that
both are forms of professional wrestling but the WWF runs it's version
of professional wrestling far differently than the UFC runs it's version
of professional wrestling. The WWF runs it's version of professional
wrestling as a worked form of entertainment while the UFC runs it's
version of professional wrestling as a straight up shoot. However,
both can still be considered to be professional wrestling since both of
them involve the transaction of money (which makes them professionals)
for grappling (or wrestling). This is not a very hard concept to grasp.
It's much like comparing the Harlem Globetrotters to the Chicago Bulls.
Both are playing pro basketball yet the Globetrotters are doing it only
for entertainment purposes while the Bulls are doing it not only for
entertainment purposes, but also to see who can really score the most
points.
Andrew Jacobs
bsa...@blabla.home.com (Bob Savage) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
I think that Kimo was a little more than just an "unskilled
brawler" when he fought Ken. When Kimo fought Royce he was pretty raw
but when Kimo fought Ken he'd been training in grappling for a while and
had a few professional NHB fights under his belt. Also, it's not like
Kimo came right out and put Ken on his back. If you'd watch the fight
again you'd see that in fact just the opposite happened. Ken came out
and put Kimo on his back right away. It wasn't until a few minutes into
the fight that Kimo was able to use his power to flip Ken over but he
never had Ken in any real trouble and was tapping out to a kneebar not
too long after that. Sure, I think that Kerr is better than Kimo and
would stand a much better chance at getting Ken on his back but getting
somebody on their back doesn't necessarily mean anything in NHB.
Remember Kevin Jackson got both Frank and Bohlander on their backs and
he still lost to both of them. Of course I think that Kerr has better
submission skills than Jackson and would stand a much better chance at
beating Ken than Jackson had against Frank and Bohlander but that's not
the point. The point is that Ken can fight off of his back and beat
larger opponents.
Andrew Jacobs
arbia...@aol.com (Arbianight) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
<<> elephant man. Gurghel, btw, is much more accomplished in sport
jiu-jitsu than
Carlao.
Yes, but according to Jumpinmf, SJJ doesn't count for anything (haha).>>
You just proved Jumps point even more. Gurgel is a much better SJJ
player than Baretto, yet Baretto would kill him in NHB. If 2 BJJ guys
fight in NHB, the better SJJ player isnt assured of the win.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that this proves much of anything. The difference
between success in NHB and "sport" jui jitsu rests with the ability to
strike and to handle getting striked. If somebody is good in "sport"
jui jitsu and they are an adequate striker and can take a punch they
stand a good chance in NHB. You said that Barretto could kill Gurgel in
NHB and this may be so but keep in mind that Barretto is bigger than
Gurgel too (by at leat 40 lbs.).
Andrew Jacobs
Somebody who would waste all of this time discussing a sport that
they don't even watch is obviously a total LOSER who needs to get a
life. He is obviously not capable of carrying on a rational discussion
about the sport since he doesn't even watch it. This newsgroup should
be a place for REAL fans who actually watch the sport and actually know
what's going on and not posers.
Triangle Choke
think about it. i believe the words ken used in his richly deserved
"ultimate
shamrock" show when lying about the second fight with royce were "i beat his
monkey ass."
Sounds like he was trying to get that monkey to come out of the jungle and
stop hiding.
lizard
> Andrew Jacobs <wrote in article
> > Kimo managed to get Ken on his back and a few
minutes later Ken
> > had him tapping from a knee bar. I call that proof that
Ken can fight
> > off of his back in NHB.
>
> a BJJ guy now, but at the time, he was still just
basically
> a brawler. Now, Ken vs. a world class wrestler like Kerr,
> that will control him on the ground AND punch the shit
> out of him, that's a big difference. I'd love to see it,
but I
> know it will never happen.
> --
> Rob
Yes Kerr is a world class wrestler and yes he supposedly has
submission skills though we haven't seen them, then again he
hasn't needed them either. But as someone else had stated
Jackson is/was a world class wrestler (Olympic silver
medallist I think) and he got caught by two submissions guys
who had on their backs. I think that one of the important
things if this fight were to happen would be their weights,
What's Ken weigh these days. I'm not wholly convinced of
Kerr's standup ability. Though we have seen that Ken has had
glass hands in the past. I for one would really like to see
this fight. Like him or not Ken has the tools to deal with
Kerr, whether he is able to use them is a completely
different matter. At least a Shamrock vs. Kerr would finally
let us see just how good Kerr really is.
Peace
Tony
Andrew Jacobs
samoa...@aol.com (Samoanpowr) Re: Shamrock vs. Kerr
including Barretto (while victories over guys like Gurgel and Bobish
would be kind of impressive, some of the guys Kerr has beaten were
cans).>>
Carlao's and the ground is a wash) Bobish (punches MUCH better than Ken
and is a former NCAA All-American Wrestler) and I strongly believe that
he would have trouble with Hugo. Hugo had some bad showings, but I think
in a matchup with Ken he would give him LOTS of trouble.
And if you are going to say that Kerr fought some cans..........look at
Ken. Pat Smith? Gurghel (one of Kerr's opponents) beat Pat. Royce? How
good can Royce be? You say he ducked Kerr. Leninger? LOL, Felicia Lee
Mitchell?? Kimo? Undisciplined brawler label, Severn? Kerr would
demolish Dan; look what Coleman did. Brian Johnston? Bobish (Kerr
opponent) smashed BJ very easily.
I know about the "a vs b vs c" thing; I am just pointing out that if
Kerr has fought tomato cans............Shammy has too.
Samoa.
I never said that Ken didn't fight any cans. However, I'd say
that Lenninger and Johnston were OK but not good. And I didn't say that
Royce wasn't good (especially at that time) and his ducking Kerr which I
believe he is) has no relavance on how good he was at that time. I
believe that Royce also ducked out of fighting Ken for a 3rd time with a
bunch of lame excuses.
Barretto couldn't even beat Dave Benataue so I see no way in hell
that he coul beat Ken Shamrock. Bobish is a big tough wrestler who
could give Ken a fight but I don't think that he has the skill or
conditioning to put Ken away. And Daurte, give me a break. I see no
way in hell that he could beat Ken.
Savage Lizard
<14503-379...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
Savage Lizard
<19990725134050...@ng-fh1.news.cs.com>...
>
> >>>>ken shamrock has nothing to offer to the NHB world. he had little
to
> offer
> when he was actually a "fighter" but now he is just a WWF actor and a
> laughingstock. i find any mention of him on this or any other fighting
message
> board offensive. he is a sellout and a fraud.>>>
>
> LOL! If anything, Ken Shamrock's return to the UFC could only
help
> it. The idea here, I believe, is to have Ken back into the Octagon,
advertise
> it on the WWF shows, and have even more viewers (the WWF fans) watching
the
> show. It sounds like a pretty good marketing strategy to attract more
viewers.
>
> Sure, the true UFC fans have already seen him fight, and we
might not
> be as excited to see him back in there, but there are plenty of WWF fans
who
> haven't seen him fight for real, and would be willling to pay to watch.
> Personally, I think Shamrock is helping the UFC by coming back.
Shit! Does that mean this NG might end up inhabited by more Andrews?
--
Rob
Savage Lizard
<7nfkto$jbj$1...@news.chorus.net>...
> I remember this Brazilian fighter that fought like oh about 5yrs ago,
but I
> haven't seen his punk ass back
Would that be that guy that Ken has ZERO wins, one LOSS, and
one draw with?
I'm not a Royce fan, but let's not re-write history.
> I guess he was complaining and whining about time limits
Why wouldn't he complain? Once he discovered that bigger, stronger
fighters could sleep on top of him for 30 minutes while making no attempt
to actually fight.
--
Rob
Savage Lizard
Anyone who thinks that Ken was "scared shitless" to fight Royce
doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. Ken's game plan
him. It worked too because Royce was clearly worn out and a bloody mess
after that fight while Ken was still ready to go and that's the bottom
line.
I guess we'll go round and round on this one forever. I saw a
guy fight an ultra-conservative fight. A guy that appeared to
be do absolutely nothing that would expose him to a submission.
I think that Ken had a very healthy respect for Royce, and he
fought like it. But hey why wouldn't he fight like that, he was
SUBMITTED by Royce in their first fight.
Had a stand-up/overtime not been invented at the last minute, the
fight would have ended a draw, with both fighters tired, but not much
damage to either one. Although Ken had a size and strength
advantage, and he is supposedly a submission master, he tried
almost nothing in 30 minutes. After the impromptu stand-up, he
landed one punch that probably looked worse than it really was.
Watch it again, in slo-mo. Royce mostly slipped the punch, it didn't
land solid. It certainly didn't knock him out, it just looked bad.
--
Rob
Savage Lizard
> And no, I'm not the one "making excuses" or "fabricating game plans",
> I'm just basically stating FACTS and it's a FACT that being in better
> condition than your opponent can be your best submission hold and it's a
> FACT that Royce worn out and bloodied at the end of UFC V and that Ken
> was in better condition. Anyone who thinks that Royce was in better
> condition at the end of that fight is a moron.
Facts? You stated that Ken's incredible inactivity was a "gameplan."
Is that a fact? Did you talk to Ken before that fight, read an article
somewhere? Or are you just turning your opinion about why Ken
did close to nothing in that fight into a "fact."
--
Rob
JUMPINMF1
WOW, now that's enterprise. let's make $$$ off the gruesome murders of a whole
bunch of people by some sick fuck.
ZpoliceZ
noticed that profits go to the victims, vis-a-vis my affiliation with America's
Most Wanted.
By the way, what does this have to do with NHB?
Bob Savage
news:18167-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net...
I think that Kimo was a little more than just an "unskilled
brawler" when he fought Ken. When Kimo fought Royce he was pretty raw
but when Kimo fought Ken he'd been training in grappling for a while and
had a few professional NHB fights under his belt.
---------------------
Somehow, I knew this would be somewhere in your response.
Bob
Samoanpowr
coul beat Ken Shamrock>>
Carlao had a bad showing in that fight. He did beat Mikhail Illkuohaine (just
tapped Randy Couture) Dan Bobish (beat Beneteau) and Kevin Randleman (beat Mo
Smith and beat the CRAP out of Bas). His standup is just as good as Ken's and
he has more experience on the ground.
Samoa.
MastaDre77
>>>> I never said that Ken didn't fight any cans. However, I'd say
that Lenninger and Johnston were OK but not good.>>>
Actually, O would consider those guys to be a little better than
just OK. They're both just one-dimensional. Johnston gets worked on the
ground but can throw punches and kicks with most guys, and Leinenger just
doesnt know how to strike. But they both faredpretty well for being
one-dimensional. They deserve respect/ Beating those guys wasn't simple/
Andrew Jacobs
I would still favor Ken over Barretto. Barretto certainly did
have a bad showing against Benataue (who has lost to Taktarov twice (who
Ken clearly dominated in their draw)) and has also lost to Severn (who
Ken has beaten/I know that Severn holds a decision over Ken but it was a
case where the judges had to pick somebody and Severn barely did enough
to squeek bye)). Barretto also looked bad against Vovchanchin (who I
think would stand a chance of beating Ken while standing). Barretto
just hasn't done enough to show me that he can beat Ken.
You mentioned Randleman's victory over Mo Smith. Well, Ken has
also beaten Mo Smith. Also, Mo said that Ken was the strongest guy
he's ever rolled with including Mark Coleman (although he did say this
before fighting Randleman so who knows if this would change). And as
far as Randleman vs. Rutten (note that Ken beat him twice) goes, I'm
one of the people who thinks that Randleman got robbed but I would still
say that it was a closer fight that you seem to be indicating.
Samoanpowr
player than Baretto, yet Baretto would kill him in NHB. If 2 BJJ guys
fight in NHB, the better SJJ player isnt assured of the win.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that this proves much of anything>>
Then Royce's recent JJ loss doesn't "prove much of anything"? Do all of your
posts reflect this? Or just the ones that you argue against Jumpy?
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
Mo Smith.>>
In Pancrase; BIG difference. The "difference" between Pancrase and NHB is not
arguable. Bas, Ken, Frank, Guy, Jon Lober, EVERY fighter has stated that they
are different worlds.
Samoa.
DrDewm
On 25 Jul 1999 10:22:00 GMT zpol...@aol.com (ZpoliceZ) wrote:
> If I'm "the same kind of bitch that Ken Shamrock is," that means I'm the kind
> of bitch that could surely kick your ass, you
> mark.
>
> Tom
> http://www.zodiackiller.com
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
DrDewm
On 26 Jul 1999 01:19:48 GMT zpol...@aol.com (ZpoliceZ) wrote:
> If you had read carefully (albeit slowly) while surfing my site, you would have
> noticed that profits go to the victims, vis-a-vis my affiliation with America's
> Most Wanted.
>
> By the way, what does this have to do with NHB?
>
>
Peter Hobday
Watch some of Lenninger's fights again and you'll see he has some good
striking moments. I still think he'd have a LOT better record if he had
fought without hi Gi.
Peter
DrDewm
guards the match-ups are flawed because guard styles are different.
Barreto is classic brazilian with 5 foot long legs and Shamrock is
new-age big boy guard. They are both tough guards but not nearly the
same.
On 24 Jul 1999 00:34:57 GMT samoa...@aol.com (Samoanpowr) wrote:
> <<A>b, b>c and so on and so on.
> Haven't we all been down this road before?>>
>
> Here is THIS road: Carlao Barretto has a much better guard than Ken Shamrock.
> Mark Kerr was able to pass Barretto's guard. If you had to make an assesment
> of a possible matchup between Mark Kerr and Ken Shamrock, Kerr's performance
> against Barretto's guard is relavent (sp?)
>
>
> Samoa.
DrDewm
while getting socked in the kisser.
On 24 Jul 1999 06:30:13 GMT arbia...@aol.com (Arbianight) wrote:
> <<While this is true Carlao Barretto fought Kerr in a
> submission wrestling match not a NHB match. Whether being
> able to strike would have made a difference is unknown in
> this case as it wasn't possible.>>
> Kerr passed Barretto's guard WITHOUT PUNCHES. PUNCHES BEING PERMITTED COULD
> ONLY HELP HIM. If Kerr could pass Barettos guard without punching, wouldnt you
> expect him to do the same to someone with a weaker guard, plus he gets to
> punch?
Samoanpowr
match-ups are flawed because guard styles are different. Barreto is classic
brazilian with 5 foot long legs and Shamrock is new-age big boy guard. They are
both tough guards but not nearly the same.>>
Thats the point, they DON'T have equally good guards; regardless of body type.
Shamrock's guard got him messed up against Severn (not NEARLY the puncher Kerr
is) and he's only submitted ONE person from the guard. They aren't the same at
all; Barretto has been able to use his much more effectively than Ken has
shown.
Barretto on the other hand has triangled Kevin Randleman, Brandon Van Hinkle,
Dan Bobish etc. Barretto has fought better competition than Shamrock has; look
at the accomplished list of fighters and their different styles that Barretto
has fought:
Kevin Randleman (Wrestler)
IVC Champion
UFC Vet (beat Mo Smith and Bas
IMHO)
Pedro Otavio (Luta Livre)
IVC Runner-UP
Mikhail Illkuohaine (Sambo)
Tapped Randy Couture
AFC 16 man tourny finalist
Igor Vovchanchin (Muay Thai)
3 time 8 man tournament winner
Dave Beneteau
UFC Finalist
Carlao is 3-2 against this group. 2nd tier wins come against Brandon Van
Hinkle.
Royce Gracie
Kimo Leopoldo
Dan Severn
and was 2-2-1 against them. Second tier wins come against Brian Johnston and
Pat Smith.
It's a tough decision, but I would say that Carlao has fought better
competition than Ken and has used his guard effectively in compiling a better
record against tougher competition.
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
getting socked in the kisser.>>
Taking into account all things relavant to this issue: Kerr is a better
striker than Carlao. Kerr has put a hurtin on another BJJ guy who is much more
accomplished than Carlao. Barretto has NOT shown big strikes while holding
someone in his guard. It is all speculation, but I would say, it is more
probable that Kerr would have a bigger advantage if strikes are thrown in.
Samoa.
Burrito 11
judgement) but why disrespect Shamrock?
Ken gave of us some great and classic fights. Put yourself in his place(You'd
go to the WWF). So in no way should you disrespect Shamrock! You don't have to
like him but you have to give him respect!
>I think "talking shit" is part of the fight game. IMHO, stepping on your
>opponent's neck *after* you beat them is a better definition of "asshole".
>
>> shamrock" show when lying about the second fight with royce were "i beat
>his
>> monkey ass."
>
>(subtley racist).
>
>> is it really that hard to understand how such a person would inspire
>disgust
>> and contempt, billiam?
>
>It's hard for me to understand how your disgust can be so strong that you
>would *never* say anything good, or even non-bad, about Ken Shamrock. It's
>fun to throw out bait, and see you take it every single time - never letting
>a single pro-Ken or anti-Royce post go by without saying *something*.
>
>I like Ken more than I like Royce, partly because he's American (go USA),
>and partly because he seems more willing to fight. The Gracies remind of a
>family that taught me their private JJ style, so I also like the Gracies. I
>also see clearly the Gracie Marketing Machine, which I find hypocritical and
>sad. I remember the Gracie advertisement in Black Belt saying how in 75
>years nobody had landed a punch on a Gracie, and on the other page was a 6
>month old picture of Royce being carried out of the ring after his second
>fight with Ken.
>
>Generally I think all the fighters are great, and I think the superfight
>caliber guys are *really* great. I think it's great example of GJJ that a
>176 lb guy can beat all shapes and sizes of other fighters. I also think
>after everyone else learned the Gracie's techniques, the secret was out, and
>the Gracies had much less of an advantage. To an extent I believe in purity
>of style, with the Gracies breaking new ground in efficient techniques for
>1-on-1 fights. I not believe GJJ is perfect for all situations (like any
>with more than 1 opponent), and I do not believe the Gracies (or anyone
>else) are "invincible".
>
>I think most UFC fights are determined by about 70% technique and 30%
>conditioning, with the superfight guys being more like 90% technique and 10%
>conditioning. Royce may be a better technician, with better techniques, but
>Ken was close enough and had a lot more strength and a lot more
>conditioning.
>
>I thought their second match was a great fight, it was awesome to see what
>happened when two guys in their prime met for a rematch - very aware of the
>other's guy style. That fight re-enforced something that had been told to
>me many times when I was young and learning TKD & Wing Chun. That it's
>easier to defend than attack, and two masters makes for a dull fight.
>
>It is childish, or insane, for you to say that Ken has no merit. Anybody
>that fought Royce Gracie for 36 minutes, to a draw, has to have merit. If
>you can't see that, you're contempt has made you blind. My blindness was
>caused by excessive masturbation, but that's another story (haha).
>
>- Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
DrDewm
and he is a Kerr type fighter. And this was no decision he choked KR
out with a triangle. Those legs can sneak up on you.
DrDewm
Jimmie J
>This is how I feel. Maybe the UFC has changed(for better or worse your own
>judgement) but why disrespect Shamrock?
>Ken gave of us some great and classic fights. Put yourself in his place(You'd
>go to the WWF). So in no way should you disrespect Shamrock! You don't have to
>like him but you have to give him respect!
My problem is this, Ken Shamrock is probably a great fighter and is
extremely tough but his accomplishments in the UFC are not that great.
He never won a UFC tournament. Royce Gracie and Dan Servern had
better careers than Ken Shamrock has. Now, I have the upmost respect
for anyone that steps into the octagon or any NHB event, but Ken
Shamrock goes on camera spewing vile about how he's the best NHB
fighter past and present when in fact, his accomplishments aren't that
great. If Kerr and Shamrock were to fight, Shamrock would be on his
back the whole time w/ Kerr pounding the snot out of him. Kerr is a
better fighter than Severn, and has more submission knowledge, and
look what happened when Severn fought Ken the 2nd time.
However, Frank Shamrock is one of the best in the business and if Ken
has been training w/ him, this fight could be very interesting.
Peter Hobday
"Billiam" (sell...@hotmail.com) writes:
>
> If you gave Ken the same laundry list of tomatoe cans that Royce had, he
> would have won those UFC tournaments, too. And quicker. Who else did Royce
> fight? 51 yr old Ron Van Clief? Fat 26 yr old Pardoel? The 5 Tigers
> Kung-Fu kid training at the Lions Den? Give me a break.
>
> Anybody that says Ken didn't accomplish anything in the Octagon is an
> ignorant fuck.
>
He never beat a guy with 1 boxing glove. Until he does, he's still
second fiddle to Royce in my books (rumour has it that Royce said that his
big brother Rickson can cream guys with TWO boxing gloves). Apparently,
they were the terms for Rickson vs Takada III but Rickson backed out at
the last moment over how many million he was supposed to get.
Peter
JUMPINMF1
fuck.
ken accomplished plenty. he was the first to bail out of tournaments when the
competition got too tough, the first to use fake injuries to avoid fighting,
the first to use the clock rather than fight like a man, the first to fight
boring superfights, the first to use the UFC as a platform for getting into
professional wrestling, the first to write a book of self-serving lies about
himself and his fights, the first to give an interview at a UFC while faking
injury in a wheelchair, the first to have an entire UFC ppv event dedicated to
him which was used to make racist remarks and tell lies about his fights. yes,
ken shamrock accomplished alot, and anybody who denies that is an ignorant
fuck.
Jimmie J
wrote:
>Anybody that says Ken didn't accomplish anything in the Octagon is an
>ignorant fuck.
>
>- Bill
>
What exactly did Shamrock do? Ken beat Dan Severn and Kimo, but guess
what, Royce did the same. I'm not even a Royce fan and Royce's
accomplishments far outweight Ken's in the UFC. Ken never completed a
tournament, and I can't see how he can be considered a "great" of the
UFC. His accomplishments are below Don Frye, Royce Gracie, and Dan
Severn and probably even below Randy Coture too. Even Mark Coleman
has had more success in the UFC than Ken Shamrock did beating both
Severn and Don Frye.
As much as I hate saying this, the highlight of Ken Shamrock's career
is drawing w/ Royce Gracie.
Triangle Choke
you say always get's discredited anyway.
JUMPINMF1 wrote in message <19990729134703...@ng-bj1.aol.com>...
>Anybody that says Ken didn't accomplish anything in the Octagon is an
ignorant
>fuck.
Samoanpowr
damage.>>
So what? Royce tapped all three of em, and none of them tapped him. Time of
win over a common opponent is a poor poor comparison. Otherwise Tank and
Rickson would be better fighters than Kerr because they finished him much
quicker than Mark did. Royce would be better than Marco Ruas because of his
quicker win against Remco Pardoel, and Igor would be better than Kerr as well
due to his much easier win over Paul Varelens.
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
so afraid.>>
Awww, was that a double back bi pose for the monitor or a side chest?
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
Ok then. What happened right after Royce "chickened out" when he saw Harold
Howard? Ken Shamrock saw that the awesome Harold Howard (who Royce was afraid
of) was in the finals and chickened out as well; refusing to fight Howard just
as Royce did.
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
When Ken refused to play Royce's game, Royce refused to change his game.
Instant boredom complements of Royce Gracie.>>
No; "complements" of BOTH Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock. Or "when Royce
refused to change HIS game, Ken changed his. Instant boredom complements of
Ken Shamrock". Either way ya want it.
<<Why didn't Royce stand up and fight like a MAN ?>>
That statement is fuckin' funny considering we are talking about NHB. Just
plain silly.
<<Tank and Rickson might very well be better than Kerr. I've only seen Kerr's
UFC fights, which have been jokes. Hopefully he is as good as they say, but>>
They might be aliens too, but we don't know. Neither will we know who his
better by using statements YOU made that I was responding too; such as "Ken
beat Dan and Kimo much easier than Royce did".
<<Royce probably *is* better than Ruas. Odd how they never met up in Brazil.>>
Yeah, pretty odd considering Marco could have simply walked into Gracie Barra
or Humaita and challenged any of them.
<<Igor is very good. He had a bad night when he fought Frank, but otherwise
he has done well.>>
What are you talking about? I used Igor as an example of how your statement
about beating a common opponent easier doesn't make you any better of a
fighter. I know Igor is very good, and I know that he lost to Frank. I'd like
to see Igor fight Sperry again or Frank too, but that has little to do with the
statement you made about Ken beating Kimo and Dan easier than Royce did.
Samoa.