WHY GRAPPLERS WILL NEVER BEAT STRIKERS!!!!!
Weschi
Just a word of advice too all you UFC fans who think NHB events are
examples of realfights and think ground fighting Bjj/Gjj/Wrestling is
beter than striking. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature of
there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the oppnet.
Why can't Strikers do the same?
Simple, an EXPERT striker who is trained to stirke eyes , thorat and groin
would devestae his opponet , maim and seriously inujure him/her forlife. I
amnot saying this automatically wiins the fight, but it does mean hurting
your opponet in a way that he/she will never recover from and possibly
die.
Most Master strikers such as myself simply willnot do this for sport. So
when a grappler fights a Master striker he/she is really at an advantage.
The grappler is very safe from being hurt beacsue the striker willnot want
to hurt him/her. For a grappler tofight a striker in the ring is like a
300 pound man wresling a tiger , only the tiger has been declawed and has
a muzzle. So unless its a REAL fight to the death we will never know which
art is superior. Oh and for all you kids that grew up on the UFC and
Gracie tapes, please dont belive the hype and bull shit about how you
can't be hit with eye , throat and groin shots AND if you do it wont
hurt. Believe it will Hurt and you canand willbe HIT!!!
Weschi
dave
Here, Here, Weschi...I'm in total agreement.
Dave
Weschi wrote in message ...
Weschi
It has now become apparent that a whole new generation of kids have grown
up on the UFC and think this is real fightong, Martial Arts etc. They pay
hundreds of dollars for Taapes Cable and Grappling lessons. But what i
anm wondering is the damge it has done to theses kids and Martil Arts in
genral. It seesm ther are alot of misinformed youngsters out their these
days.
And a whole new class off beer drinking,foul mouth talking idiots trying
to prove themselves as REAL men.
As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
WESCHI
Grappling Dummy
Weschi wrote in message ...
>It has now become apparent that a whole new generation of kids have grown
>up on the UFC and think this is real fightong, Martial Arts etc.
Its only been around less than ten years. That isnt a generation, as you
say. In addition, the number of NHB fans among martial artists is still
relatively small.
They pay
>hundreds of dollars for Taapes Cable and Grappling lessons.
They spend the same on "Air Jordan's"
But what i am wondering is the damge it has done to theses kids and Martil
Arts in
>genral. It seesm ther are alot of misinformed youngsters out their these
>days.
I dont believe the kids are misinformed. If they attend a reputable
school/dojo, they will be set straight...quickly.
>
>And a whole new class off beer drinking,foul mouth talking idiots trying
>to prove themselves as REAL men.
>
Care to name some names? My guess is, you are talking about guys who arent
martial artists and grew up watching Pro- wrestling and Ali. Thwey figure
trash-talking will get them more fights and bigger paychecks. Guess what?
It works!!!
> As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
>some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
>examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
>Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
what do you define an NHB event as?
>
>WESCHI
Rodney A. Williams
HAIL SPARTICUS !!! Bring back the barbarism and true
brutality..........To the DEATH !!! Poke out those eyes, crack those
nuts, and smash that windpipe Wes !!!
Chris and Kayci McKinley
Weschi wrote:
>
> It has now become apparent that a whole new generation of kids have grown
> hundreds of dollars for Taapes Cable and Grappling lessons. But what i
> anm wondering is the damge it has done to theses kids and Martil Arts in
> genral. It seesm ther are alot of misinformed youngsters out their these
> days.
>
> to prove themselves as REAL men.
>
> some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
> examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
> Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
>
Dear Weschi,
I have always thought of the UFC as the white trash bingo night of
the martial arts.
Chris McKinley
dave
Rod, this may seem brutal but its just our response to all the wrestlers
claiming that traditional arts are useless...which is simply not true as
Weschi explains.
dave k
Rodney A. Williams wrote in message <350999...@erols.com>...
Bob Savage
No way is the UFC real fightong (sic). They do way more devastating
techniques in the WWF.
Weschi wrote in message ...
Bob Savage
Flame bait?
Weschi wrote in message ...
>
Bob Savage
One innacurate, childish statement (grapplers will *always* beat strikers)
deserves another (grapplers will *never* beat strikers).
dave wrote in message <35099...@news2.ibm.net>...
Frederick Fullerton
Do I smell trollers with an odorous bait bucket, or should I resurrect the
Easter Bunny and Santa Claus?
In article <35099...@news2.ibm.net>, "dave" <da...@what.what> wrote:
> Here, Here, Weschi...I'm in total agreement.
>
> Dave
>
>
> Weschi wrote in message ...
> >Just a word of advice too all you UFC fans who think NHB events are
> >examples of realfights and think ground fighting Bjj/Gjj/Wrestling is
> >beter than striking. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> >Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> >techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature of
> >there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the oppnet.
> >Why can't Strikers do the same?
> >
> >
> >
> >Simple, an EXPERT striker who is trained to stirke eyes , thorat and groin
> >would devestae his opponet , maim and seriously inujure him/her forlife. I
> >amnot saying this automatically wiins the fight, but it does mean hurting
> >your opponet in a way that he/she will never recover from and possibly
> >die.
[snip]
Don Wagner
"dave" <da...@what.what> wrote:
>Rod, this may seem brutal but its just our response to all the wrestlers
>claiming that traditional arts are useless...which is simply not true as
>Weschi explains.
>
>dave k
Both sides of the coin are moronic at best.
"Wess" has ever maimed anyone with his striking skills so he doesn't
really know if they will take down the grappler who trains against
strikers. The groundfighter who doesn't learn to counter the areas a
good striker knows to hit is in for a bad time.
Needless to say, the death N' maimen' rate at MA schools is a bit low.
I wonder why?
;-)
--Don--
An unemployed court jester is no one's fool.
Matthew Noell
On the bright side these kids are learning some fairly effective
(grappling) techniques that probably won't maim or kill anybody. If it
keeps 'em from knifing each other I'm all for it. We had a kid stabbed to
death at school here two days ago. Too bad they didn't use UFC brand
super GJJ.
Matthew
In article <6ec7i7$4rv$1...@ha1.rdc1.occa.home.com>, "Bob Savage"
<getridofth...@home.com> wrote:
> No way is the UFC real fightong (sic). They do way more devastating
> techniques in the WWF.
>
> Weschi wrote in message ...
TICKYUL
Very good post,but I think the fighters of ninties and beyond realize that to
be really good you need to be great in all areas of fighting.The boxers of old
would not do weightlifting as a part of thier training,but now it is proving to
be a big plus for all athletes.I think the same applies to grapplers and
strikers(that they realize they must cross train).I knew a guy who was a karate
guy and he got into a fight with a state champion high school wrestler.The
wrestler ended up pinning the karate guy down onto the ground but he could not
do anything with karate guy because he was so strong.The karate guy ended up
struggling out of the hold and getting to his feet and kicking the wrestler in
the mouth with a roundhouse kick(I saw it)and broke all of his front teeth out.
Rodney A. Williams
dave wrote:
>
> Rod, this may seem brutal but its just our response to all the wrestlers
> claiming that traditional arts are useless...which is simply not true as
> Weschi explains.
>
> dave k
>
> >HAIL SPARTICUS !!! Bring back the barbarism and true
> >brutality..........To the DEATH !!! Poke out those eyes, crack those
> >nuts, and smash that windpipe Wes !!!
I am sorry, for even the slightest chance, that this reply was taken in
any other context than to be sarcasm. I can see the point made , by Wes,
but really see no other means of this to be proven unless "to the death"
matches are done. Is this really what you are implying or are we just
going to give credit to possibilities that you have stated. Hell, how
can we "truely" judge anything, if this be the case. "Ultra Realism" was
done away with in an era long ago. I can't believe that any offensive
move does not have a defensive move as an answer. Just to imply that
someone is "trained" to strike such areas, does not in any way
"guarentee" that that strike will hit it's target or that the target
will be availiable to be struck. As for the "code of honor" that keeps
strikers from "using their most effective techniques", I think that goes
for all fighters and not just stikers. No telling what either would or
would not do , put in a "do or die" situation. One thing is for sure,
when they go in to the Octagon they plan on coming out. I have not been
here that long , but have seen nobody say that "traditional arts are
useless".
P.S. - To go along with another thread ; the "to the death match" would
definatly raise the purse for at least one party.
>~D nibble, nibble, nibble ...... >~D
Ryan Santos
well of course the ufc is just a sport mr master striker. real fights
are more deadly because there is no structured format with refs, docs
,time limits, weight classes, towels etc............NOT because strikers
hold back.
chokes , joint locks and other submission techniques can all be used to
maim an opponent or worse when the cameras are off just as strikes can.
ps in case you dont read this newsgroup nhb fighters do take groin
shots
David D. Wright
The UFC and NHB contests have become the proving ground for martial art
techniques. Some say its not real fighting, because it invalidates their
flawed martial arts training. The martial arts are filled with
romantics who dream a dream of oneness and pure spirituality gleaned through
the martial arts, with occasional point sparring to boaster there false self
image. 90% of all black belt level martial artists will loose on the street
to a seasoned street fighter. If you study history and go back to the root of
martial arts you will find that being a warrior was just a job (a good paying
job if you get noticed and can lead). If you were an effective killing
machine and politically savvy you survived and were rewarded. Most martial
artists of today are far from the warriors of old. And that's why they are so
threaten by the UFC and NHB, it warrior play --two guys knocking around,
rolling around; far closer to reality than the ridiculous point sparring and
kata.
James Alford
On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Don Wagner wrote:
> "dave" <da...@what.what> wrote:
> >Rod, this may seem brutal but its just our response to all the wrestlers
> >claiming that traditional arts are useless...which is simply not true as
> >Weschi explains.
> >
> >dave k
>
> Both sides of the coin are moronic at best.
>
> "Wess" has ever maimed anyone with his striking skills so he doesn't
> really know if they will take down the grappler who trains against
> strikers. The groundfighter who doesn't learn to counter the areas a
> good striker knows to hit is in for a bad time.
>
> Needless to say, the death N' maimen' rate at MA schools is a bit low.
> I wonder why?
> ;-)
> --Don--
> An unemployed court jester is no one's fool.
>
Popular topic. I just talked to a friend about this the other day. IIRC,
there was a match in a Japan where a contestant was eye-gouged,
permanently losing vision in his eye, but continued fighting (and won?).
As far as groin shots goes, we've seen those in the UFC as well. Though
when Hackney ear-slapped the Sumo back in one of the early UFCs, that was
pretty effective. But it goes both ways. Severn could have easily made
sure those two suplexes slammed the guys head into the mat rather than
the shoulders, which could easily be fatal. When was the last time
someone in a NHB match did a hip throw holding the guy's neck instead of
the elbow and shoulder? The main drawback with grappling is that it makes
the grapplers more vulnerable to any other friends standing above them,
then if they were standing up and striking. Considering that alot of
poplular MAs were designed for battlefield type situations, it's not
surprising that groundfighting isn't the main focus for alot of styles.
Just as styles are better with some body types than others, some seem more
suited for different environments than others. My 2 cents.
(Sorry about lack of names and tournament #s. I'm a fan, but not a
die-hard fan).
-JA
GAHTU
As someone who has practiced to strike the eyes, I have to say this whole
argument is uninformed and stupid. It's just as easy to punch someone in the
face as it is to strike their eyes from a standing, unengaged position. IF
these martial artists (Emin Boztepe, etc.) could gouge any grappler's eyes out
before they even tied up, then he could also just plain knock him out. It
seems to me the most effective time for an eye-strike is when you are already
tied up with your opponent. This happened to me the other day. I ended up
stiking the other person's eyes as we tangled. If there had been more distance
between us, I would have gone for a kick or punch or lead-in for a throw. If I
haven't already tied up with my opponent, I'm not going to go for an eye-stike.
Then, once you are tied up with your opponent, the better grappler is USUALLY
going to be in better position to attack the vital points. For instance, to
pick a fight we all know well, in Royce/Shamrock II, who do you think was in a
better position to strike the eyes, kidneys or throat? Shamrock, who had his
chin tucked in, and who would have been immediately arm-barred if he had left
his hand too high for too long; or Royce, who had his hands near Shamrock's
throat and face the entire time?
I'm not trying to launch another argument about who won that fight, I'm just
using it to demonstrate that certain positions in grappling are far superior
than others when all the rules are out the door.
Eric
Wes...@insideconnect.com (Weschi) wrote:
>It has now become apparent that a whole new generation of kids have grown
>up on the UFC and think this is real fightong, Martial Arts etc. They pay
>hundreds of dollars for Taapes Cable and Grappling lessons. But what i
>anm wondering is the damge it has done to theses kids and Martil Arts in
>genral. It seesm ther are alot of misinformed youngsters out their these
>days.
>And a whole new class off beer drinking,foul mouth talking idiots trying
>to prove themselves as REAL men.
> As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
>some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
>examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
>Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
If there is any damage, then you repair by becoming very clear about
what it is you would like to present as the "right way" and then let
the people choose. From my perspective, a lot of the brazilian
jui-jitsu schools that are cropping up, or just becoming more
noticeable, are more in line with addressing the concerns of today's
generation. Carrying a gun isn't recommended as records show that
many people are killed by having their own guns used on them, but
considering all things, IF the unwilling participant is NOT
immediately killed when attacked, or is given the chance to defend,
the explosion of information on grappling arts is going to come in
handy. The exceptions are going to be in situations against groups of
people and armed attacks from a distance, but those seem to be the
exceptions rather than the rule, and "pure" martial arts won't help in
those cases either.
So, the question is not which is better, but what does each offer the
individual?
Eric
>WESCHI
Robert Campbell
Weschi:
I think that you are mistaken on this. The UFC has not hurt the MA at
all. There are primarily 3 reasons why some joins a MA school:
1) Fitness
2) Fun
3) Self-Defense
The UFC has done nothing to hurt #1.
It has shown to those having fun that the open stand-up tournaments are
nothing more than that fun. Many were equating success on the Tournament
circuit to success on the street, they are TOTALLY different.
As for the Self-Defense aspect, I think that it has de-mystfied the MA.
When MAists train they train against non-fighting target that pose after
doing the offensive techniqu.
For example, I am doing a right lunge punge, and then pose for 3-4 seconds
while you perform your self-defence. It is this kind of garbage that the
UFC has fixed, or at least shown to be fraudulant.
I do not think that this has damaged the MAists in ANY way. Furthermore,
it has shown that strength DOES make a difference. We have seen numerous,
"technical masters" fall to the Coleman, Severn, Goodridge grog-type. All
we need to do is look at Gracie v Kimo. Kimo had NO skill just strength
and almost beat him. How about Hackney, he was overpowered by Ruas. We
have learned that knockouts come from big, strong lucky shots. Speed,
ferocity, strength are what is important, not technique.
It has shown that in order to be an effective street fighter what you need
is, Strength, Speed, and ferocity. The Ground and Pound has proven VERY
effective agaisnt the best strikers.
The UFC has forced schools to evolve to a more realistic style of
training. My home school is now training in ground-work and also goes
full-contact w/o pads now.
I think that this is beneficial to the MA and reduces the facade that it
had become.
Just my thought,
Robert Campbell
Jumpinmf
>> I have always thought of the UFC as the white trash bingo night of
the martial arts.
speaking of white trash, how's kayci?
Andrew Jacobs
Ken Shamrock also could have been biting Royce Gracie and
punching and squeezing his balls while in that gaurd. He also could
have been scratching Royce and pulling on his ears and stuff like that.
Royce could have used similiar tatics if it was a REAL STREETFIGHT. The
point is that both of them ould have fought dirtier if the fight was in
the street instead of in the Octagon.
Andrew Jacobs
You are actually wrong about carrying a gun not making a
difference in self defense. Since the state of Florida starting
allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons the amount of people that
have been victims of muggings and other such crimes has steadily dropped
while rising in other states that don't allow people to carry arms. Now
I'm sure that somebody is going to bring up an example of some idiot kid
bringing a gun to school and shootihng somebody but that is actually a
symptom of another problem and I really don't feel like getting in to
that since it strays from the topic of discussion.
To get back to being more on topic, I would just like to add
that the UFC has been the best thing to happen to the so "martial arts"
world in years. Events like the UFC have effectively exposed frauds
like Grandmaster Tsia that teach a bunch of BS and fill people with a
false sense of security while stealing their money.
Mike IGC
Chris and Kayci McKinley <Thg...@swbell.net> wrote in article
<35099C...@swbell.net>...
<-----------> I have always thought of the UFC as the white trash bingo
night of
> the martial arts.
>
>
And the high class ones would be........?
Andrew Jacobs
Shit, Jumpie would probably enjoy squeezing Royce's balls (and
licking them too for that matter) but it wouldn't be in a fight.
GAHTU
> Ken Shamrock also could have been biting Royce Gracie and
>punching and squeezing his balls while in that gaurd. He also could
>have been scratching Royce and pulling on his ears and stuff like that.
Well I'm not so sure what scratching and pulling ears would do in a fight
(other than in the numerous ones you've apparently had in fifth grade) but
there is no way Shamrock could have punched Royce "in the balls" while he was
in Royce's guard. I suppose he could have bitten Royce on the stomach, but if
you're fighting a guy willing to bite, you're in trouble in any type of
grappling situation. Biting some guy in a fight is putting your life on the
line, what with AIDS, etc.
Ranselaer
You are forgetting two things:
(1) the guys who participate in the UFC know how to take a punch (or a kick,
or a throw), because they fight for a living. On the street, guys talk alot of
shit but most can't take a punch.
(2) many forms of karate and kung emphasize very dangerous shots to the body's
most vulnerable spots (balls, eyes, throat, knee caps, elbows). Like the
original poster of this thread said, these moves are either banned in the UFC
or simplywouldn't be used in the octagon by a trained master of the MA. Why
not? Because it's not for sport, it's for self-defense in life threatening
situations.
>From: "David D. Wright" <vigo...@uswest.net>
>
> The martial arts are filled with
>romantics who dream a dream of oneness and pure spirituality gleaned through
>the martial arts, with occasional point sparring to boaster there false self
>image. 90% of all black belt level martial artists will loose on the street
>to a seasoned street fighter.
>
Michael
Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
<Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
>. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature of
> there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the oppnet.
Funny...I've yet to see the grapplers choke an opponent to death, or break
their arms, or .....And I have seen many strikers give it their all and not
connect because they were too busy falling on their ass.
>
> Simple, an EXPERT striker who is trained to stirke eyes , thorat and
groin
> would devestae his opponet , maim and seriously inujure him/her forlife
Hmm...I didn't see them just throwing body shots dude...
>
> Most Master strikers such as myself simply willnot do this for sport.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! I thought you were serious for a
minute!!!!
drjim
Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
<01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
>
>
> Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
> <Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> >. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> > techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature
of
> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
oppnet.
> connect because they were too busy falling on their ass.
>
>
>
>
I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
be able to gouge an opponents eye while he is shooting in. Mr. Kung
master, think about it is it easier to gouge someone while they're shooting
in or while you have them in a headlock and your're pounding the living
shit out of them.
Steven and Diana Bittle
The main drawback with grappling is that it makes
> the grapplers more vulnerable to any other friends standing above them,
> then if they were standing up and striking. Considering that alot of
> poplular MAs were designed for battlefield type situations, it's not
> surprising that groundfighting isn't the main focus for alot of styles.
> Just as styles are better with some body types than others, some seem more
> suited for different environments than others. My 2 cents.
>
finally someone with some common sense.
MIGHTYEAGL
ufc has exposed the martial arts for what it really is ..fantasy
Penguin
I think you watch too much "Kung Fu: the legend continues".
Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
<Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> Just a word of advice too all you UFC fans who think NHB events are
> examples of realfights and think ground fighting Bjj/Gjj/Wrestling is
> beter than striking. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature of
> there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the oppnet.
> Why can't Strikers do the same?
>
>
>
> Simple, an EXPERT striker who is trained to stirke eyes , thorat and
groin
> would devestae his opponet , maim and seriously inujure him/her forlife.
I
> amnot saying this automatically wiins the fight, but it does mean hurting
> your opponet in a way that he/she will never recover from and possibly
> die.
>
> Most Master strikers such as myself simply willnot do this for sport. So
> when a grappler fights a Master striker he/she is really at an advantage.
>
> The grappler is very safe from being hurt beacsue the striker willnot
want
> to hurt him/her. For a grappler tofight a striker in the ring is like a
> 300 pound man wresling a tiger , only the tiger has been declawed and has
> a muzzle. So unless its a REAL fight to the death we will never know
which
> art is superior. Oh and for all you kids that grew up on the UFC and
> Gracie tapes, please dont belive the hype and bull shit about how you
> can't be hit with eye , throat and groin shots AND if you do it wont
> hurt. Believe it will Hurt and you canand willbe HIT!!!
>
>
> Weschi
>
Andrew Jacobs
Scratching and pulling on ears is actually very effective in a
fight.
GAHTU
> Scratching and pulling on ears is actually very effective in a
>fight.
Shooter, when most of us talk about fights, we aren't talking about what
happened at recess in the fifth grade.
James Alford
On 16 Mar 1998, Roland Lee wrote:
> Steven and Diana Bittle (bit...@soonernet.com) wrote:
> : The main drawback with grappling is that it makes
> So what are you going to do when the one or two shots you have time to throw
> before the grappler closes with you fail to drop him (or don't even connect
> at all) and you're now on your back staring up at his face, his eyes red
> with bloodlust, his fists pounding down mercilessly on your face, quickly
> turning your boyish good looks into so much strawberry jam?
<snip>
What are you going to do if the guys on top
> of you in a street fight. Say, "hey, you're leaving yourself open to the
> inevitable counterattack that will come from my friends who are, no doubt,
> at this very minute, rushing to my aid". Your friends may have problems of
> their own to deal with (assuming they're with you when you're attacked).
>
LOL. Man... that is a poetic, colorful image. Me, I'd probably ball up
and cover my head, since I don't practice MA (no time, just dabbled)
but would like to. If I did train, it would definitely be a mixed martial
art style, like the ones seen in "NHB" competitions, with a little more
focus on staying stood up rather than trying to close the gap for a
takedown or throw. Training in an MMA style would have a couple big
advantages, IMO. You could practice/spar (with padding) to focus on
techniques that work best in a high stress situation and actually learn to
use them against a resisting opponent. It would be more like learning a
sport that had practical applications. If I wanted to learn to kill
people, I'd join the army.
The other big one is just because of the times we live in and the legal
system. Even if a person is being mugged, they could be held liable for
using excessive force. For example, some abused kid who got kicked out of
his home and wants some money for a better meal than the soup kitchen
offers pulls a knife on a "Trained Killer" (TM) and is permanently blinded
in one eye, made sterile from a ruptured scrotum, or even killed because
of a collapsed trachea. Get the right sympathetic jury, and their
attitude could be "If he was such an expert, why didn't he just subdue the
poor kid and wait for the authorities?" Well, it's a stretch, but it
could happen. Choking someone out or breaking an arm isn't nearly as
permanent, and forgivable, but could also get a guy out of potentially
life threatening situations.
Done rambling.
-JA
Andrew Jacobs
GAHTU, the techniques that I decribed are very effective. You
must not have ever been in any real fights or ever seen any real fights
or you would know this.
Andrew Jacobs
All of the UFC competitors practice some style of hand to hand
combat and therefore all of them are "martial artist."
Roland Lee
Steven and Diana Bittle (bit...@soonernet.com) wrote:
: The main drawback with grappling is that it makes
: > the grapplers more vulnerable to any other friends standing above them,
: > then if they were standing up and striking. Considering that alot of
: > poplular MAs were designed for battlefield type situations, it's not
: > surprising that groundfighting isn't the main focus for alot of styles.
: > Just as styles are better with some body types than others, some seem more
: > suited for different environments than others. My 2 cents.
: >
: finally someone with some common sense.
So what are you going to do when the one or two shots you have time to throw
before the grappler closes with you fail to drop him (or don't even connect
at all) and you're now on your back staring up at his face, his eyes red
with bloodlust, his fists pounding down mercilessly on your face, quickly
turning your boyish good looks into so much strawberry jam? Really, just
because you wouldn't want to use grappling to defend yourself, you'll have
to cover how to escape from a grappling situation should you be so unfor-
tunate to end up in one. And if the guy's really close to you, you'll have
little choice but to grapple (or bite) since you'll often be so close that
strikes will not be effective. What are you going to do if the guys on top
of you in a street fight. Say, "hey, you're leaving yourself open to the
inevitable counterattack that will come from my friends who are, no doubt,
at this very minute, rushing to my aid". Your friends may have problems of
their own to deal with (assuming they're with you when you're attacked).
--
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's
life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if
there are men on base.
--Dave Barry
Roland S. Lee
Materials Science and Engineering
University of Pennsylvania
rl...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
Jumpinmf
>> If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's
life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if
there are men on base.
--Dave Barry >>
LMAO!!
Taro Sumitomo
From what I've heard, the guys who tend to win these sorts of events are
highly dedicated, well trained athletes (Ok, not all are "martial
artists")
The only message I'm getting is that if you work hard at something, than
it will pay off. I don't know about you, but it sounds pretty good where
I'm standing.
Or are you just sore that the grappling instructors are getting more
students than you are?
ts
GAHTU
> GAHTU, the techniques that I decribed are very effective. You
>must not have ever been in any real fights or ever seen any real fights
>or you would know this.
>
>
OK, you win.
Rodney A. Williams
James Alford wrote:
>
> On 16 Mar 1998, Roland Lee wrote:
>
> > : The main drawback with grappling is that it makes
> > : > the grapplers more vulnerable to any other friends standing above them,
> > : > then if they were standing up and striking. Considering that alot of
> > : > poplular MAs were designed for battlefield type situations, it's not
> > : > surprising that groundfighting isn't the main focus for alot of styles.
> > : > Just as styles are better with some body types than others, some seem more
> > : > suited for different environments than others. My 2 cents.
> > : >
> >
> > : finally someone with some common sense.
> >
> > So what are you going to do when the one or two shots you have time to throw
> > before the grappler closes with you fail to drop him (or don't even connect
> > at all) and you're now on your back staring up at his face, his eyes red
> > with bloodlust, his fists pounding down mercilessly on your face, quickly
> > turning your boyish good looks into so much strawberry jam?
>
>
> What are you going to do if the guys on top
> > of you in a street fight. Say, "hey, you're leaving yourself open to the
> > inevitable counterattack that will come from my friends who are, no doubt,
> > at this very minute, rushing to my aid". Your friends may have problems of
> > their own to deal with (assuming they're with you when you're attacked).
> >
>
Ramble on dude. I agree with ya.
Rodney A. Williams
Heh heh.
Penguin
Strikers never get to strike at the eye's or other vital areas so how do
you know if you can do it at the time the grapplers shoot in? Or even at
all. A grappler gets to train very hard and use his armbars and
submissions, a karateka goes over kata, and most do not fight full contact
or do any bag work. If you could strike at the eye's i feel the outcome
would be the same. (with the fight going to the ground)
Rodney A. Williams
Well stated .....thanks.
dvau...@flash.net wrote:
>
> OK SO IT'S LONG SO SUE ME.
>
> I have to agree with ya, come on people be honest, how many of you
> have seen or been in any real street fights? I have been in and seen
> more then I can count with out taking off my shoes and those of a
> couple of my friends (and trust me you dont wnat me to take off my
> shoes!) and I can tell you what you see in the UFC is as close to
> actual "REAL" fighting as your ever gonna get, it is not pretty it has
> no real form no swell high jumping spinn around kick a guy in the head
> movie crap, it is fast it is ugly it is clumbsy and it almost allways
> ends up on the ground.
>
> Sure we can all agree that wresteling is not a good way to defend
> aginst several attackers, but how many of you strikers honestly think
> you can take 3 or 4 guys at once, remember they are not going to stand
> back and alternatly take a punch at you they are going to rush you,
> they wont stand around like in class and wait for you to get ready
> and they wont attack in predescribed ways.
> Besides in 20 years (I am actualy 31 but I wont count the fights from
> age 1-11) I can only rember about 3 times where I saw a fight that
> included even as much as 2 aginst one, this is not the norm useualy it
> is a one on one thing they might have friends with them but often the
> friends will only act to pull you off of him when you start kicking
> the sh** out of him. In most cases where the odds are greater then 1
> on 1 it is not a fight it is an attack a mugging robery ect.
>
> We Hear "So and SO couldnt beat So and SO in a boxing match" the
> answer to that is So what? My guess is Mike Tyson wouldnt do so hot in
> a judo match under judo rules either, and in the street thier are no
> rules no reff to stop the fight cause little Timmy bit your ear, or
> gouged your eye. Of course the contridiction to that is that even in
> street fights most people refrain from doing many of these things
> anyway, they may go for the groin kick, but often wont go for the eye
> gouge etc why? Because 85% of the people you will run up aginst are
> not trained or skilled, they are just obnoxious, most MA people do not
> go looking to start a fight neither do boxers for the most part people
> trained to fight have a self confidence that dosent make them feel
> they have to prove something, add this to the fact they know they will
> posibly find them selves in big legal trouble if it can be shown that
> they attacked insted of defened and you just dont find them roaming
> the street looking for a fight.
>
> I agree with David in reguards to a large %age of MA people loosing in
> aginst a street fighter, mostly due to the street fighter having no
> rhyme or reason to his attack, he will do things that dont make sense
> and normaly a person who has realy done alot of street fighting has
> come up aginst at least one or two MAs in his time and will know what
> will work and what wont, that being said I truly belive that the
> skilled ground fighter ie Judo BJJ etc will fare better in a real
> world honest to god snot slinging name calling whacking a head aginst
> the curb street fight then any of the others, besides if they have
> been watching the UFC then as soon as you take your predescriped
> stance and start looking like Ralph Machio, they are gonna rush you
> and do thier damnedest to take you down.
>
> Moral: Like it or not, UFC is real fighting, belive it or not almost
> all real fights end up on the ground or have a great potential to do
> so. So dont put all your eggs in one basket Striking is great and so
> is ground fighting and if you can do one but not the other then you
> bed is only half made.
>
> Doug.
> Not a MA. But got my black top in street fighting :)
Andrew Jacobs
I agree Doug. The UFC is as close to a streetfight as one can
get. Streetfights aren't usually going to be what you expect them to be
so you've got to be prepared for anything and everything.
bill...@juno.com
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:10:12 -0800, trip...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Have you really ever tried to strike at someones eyes with fingers at
>the speed of a punch? If you miss and hit the forehead or other hard
>parts, you fingers are toast. This is why gouging when in close or
>striking when in close is much easier. One should punch, dodge and block
>to close the distance. Then when in a clinch and/or when the odds are
>better to strike at the eyes, sink a thumb up to about the first knuckle
>and use the grip to control the head like a bowling ball.
Who ever said eye gouges are to be done with the fingers. You can use
a thumb.
-------------------------------------------------
White-american? Is that tribe located in northern,
central or southern america?
Kung fu and groundfighting:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4098/ground.html
dvau...@flash.net
"David D. Wright" <vigo...@uswest.net> wrote:
>The UFC and NHB contests have become the proving ground for martial art
>techniques. Some say its not real fighting, because it invalidates their
>flawed martial arts training.
GAHTU
> I agree Doug. The UFC is as close to a streetfight as one can
>get.
I disagree Doug. The UFC is not as close to a streetfight as one can get.
Bring back the old rules (or lack thereof). At this point, the UFC has about
as many rules as amateur wrestling or kickboxing.
Of course, even with no rules at all, it won't be even close to a real fight,
due to no weapons/friends/element of surprise, etc. But I see we were talking
"as close as we can get."
Chad T. Pastor
In article <01bd4f9e$527a0f40$13c6d3cf@default>, drjim <dr...@dconn.com> wrote:
>
>
>Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
><01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
>>
>>
>> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
>of
>> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
>oppnet.
>I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
>good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
>be able to gouge an opponents eye while he is shooting in. Mr. Kung
>master, think about it is it easier to gouge someone while they're shooting
>in or while you have them in a headlock and your're pounding the living
>shit out of them.
There have been some beautiful strikes in the UFC and other MMA events, all
you have to do is look at the tapes. I think the key to these events is a
variety of techniques in your arsenal.
So, are you arguing that eye gouging is the best technique in your arsenal?
If not, clarify. Eye gouging has occurred in a recent MMA event and the
person that used the technique lost. Eye gouging is more of a last ditch
effort than anything. I have a hard time believing that people around here
need to rely on a technique like this. I'm still against the technique
because eyes don't always heal after trauma, were an arm or leg more than
likely will. But if you try to eye-gouge a grappler, you better hope they
haven't practiced with their eyes closed or that they'll take mercy on you.
Chad
Roland Lee
Andrew Jacobs (thesh...@webtv.net) wrote:
: All of the UFC competitors practice some style of hand to hand
: combat and therefore all of them are "martial artist."
The Shaolin 'monks' of old probably have a lot more in common with those
UFC competitors than any product of a commercial martial arts school. There
is evidence to suggest that most of those monks were criminals on the run,
guerrillas against the Manchus, etc. who only sought refuge at the Shaolin
Temples. Basically, these were guys were really knew how to fight and prob-
ably felt not the least amount of hesitation of smashing someone's face in
if the situation called for it. That's quite a dramatic difference of att-
itude of today's 'well, I chose to be beaten up because the martial arts
aren't about fighting' 'martial artists'. A lot of people who practice the
traditional styles and disparage the UFC, etc. seem to conveniently forget
that MANY of the masters of old went around challenging other people to
fights (and frequently fought at the drop of a hat or an insult). Many of
these fights ended in someone's death. Now we see the modern practitioners
of these arts saying that fighting has nothing to do with the martial arts.
Actually, a good example of a similar institution to the original Shaolin
Temples would be any one of the various hardcore State and Federal Peniten-
tiaries out there. I've heard that a martial art called Jail House Rock
has evolved from these institutions. Think about it, you have a bunch of
guys who are locked up, in a place were you definitely need to know how to
fight (or suffer the horrid consequences) and you have all the time in the
world to develop your fighting skill (unless someone kills you first) with
people from differing backgrounds coming in to add their theories, tech-
niques to the 'martial arts gumbo' that is stewing in there. Sounds a lot
like the original Shaolin Temple to me.
--
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
--Ashleigh Brilliant
Richard Lancashire
Chad T. Pastor wrote:
> So, are you arguing that eye gouging is the best technique in your arsenal?
> If not, clarify. Eye gouging has occurred in a recent MMA event and the
> person that used the technique lost. Eye gouging is more of a last ditch
> effort than anything. I have a hard time believing that people around here
> need to rely on a technique like this. I'm still against the technique
> because eyes don't always heal after trauma, were an arm or leg more than
> likely will. But if you try to eye-gouge a grappler, you better hope they
> haven't practiced with their eyes closed or that they'll take mercy on you.
Personally I would use the eye gouge as a shock tactic rather than a
finishing strike. I'd rather not use it at all, but in an emergency it
can be delivered quickly and without much commitment and causes pain,
recoil and temporary blindness. The eye usually swells up afterwards,
too.
However, this then needs to be followed up by more powerful attacks
otherwise the target will just realise what you've done and get more
angry. In a sense, it raises the stakes of the fight.
:oP
rich
GAHTU
>But if you try to eye-gouge a grappler, you better hope they
>> haven't practiced with their eyes closed or that they'll take mercy on
>you.
I hate to break the bad news to you guys, but an eye strike can be effective,
whether you have your eyes open or not. It's pressure on the eyeball that does
the trick, and "closing your eyes" isn't going to alleviate much of that, if
someone drives their fingers into your eyeballs.
trip...@ix.netcom.com
I have people in desperation gouging my eyes all the time. It pisses me
off, I close my eyes and start raining punches or go for an immediate,
relentless, and possibly permanent lock or choke of some kind. Of course
there is also the eye-for-an-eye attack. If the guy is not trying to
take your eyes it may be a bad idea to remind him of this kind of attack
if you like movies and looking at pretty girls or boys in shooters case.
Chad T. Pastor wrote:
>
> In article <01bd4f9e$527a0f40$13c6d3cf@default>, drjim <dr...@dconn.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
> ><01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
> >>
> >>
> >> Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
> >> <Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> >> >. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> >> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> >> > techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature
> >of
> >> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
> >oppnet.
> >> connect because they were too busy falling on their ass.
>
> >I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
> >good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
> >be able to gouge an opponents eye while he is shooting in. Mr. Kung
> >master, think about it is it easier to gouge someone while they're shooting
> >in or while you have them in a headlock and your're pounding the living
> >shit out of them.
>
> There have been some beautiful strikes in the UFC and other MMA events, all
> you have to do is look at the tapes. I think the key to these events is a
> variety of techniques in your arsenal.
>
> So, are you arguing that eye gouging is the best technique in your arsenal?
> If not, clarify. Eye gouging has occurred in a recent MMA event and the
> person that used the technique lost. Eye gouging is more of a last ditch
> effort than anything. I have a hard time believing that people around here
> need to rely on a technique like this. I'm still against the technique
> because eyes don't always heal after trauma, were an arm or leg more than
> likely will. But if you try to eye-gouge a grappler, you better hope they
> haven't practiced with their eyes closed or that they'll take mercy on you.
>
> Chad
>
>
>
Andrew Jacobs
What in the hell did I have to do with the discussion of eye
gouges trippmis????
Andrew Jacobs
Even with the new rules (which I would like to see most of them
ditched) the UFC is still the closest thing to a streetfight. There are
other promotions that are even closer to being a streetfight but they
aren't in the USA.
Andrew Jacobs
That would be funny if an ex-con that practiced Jail House Rock
entered the UFC. I wonder how he would do.
Bryan Rumble
Bryan Rumble wrote in message ...
>This arguement that striking arts are superior because they have eye-
>throat- groin- whatever-strikes is soooooooooo lame I could puke. Do you
>really think you need some "special" training to poke someone in the eye
(or
>ear, throat, groin, whatever)?
>Do you actually think a grappler couldn't do the same technique back to
you?
>Come on people let's get back to reality. Grapplers do well at NHB type
>tourneys because they are used to working with uncooperative opponents,
most
>karateka are not. And BTW I'm not speaking out of hand, I spent almost 10
>years training in traditional japanese systems before finding a good
>grappling school (kempo jujutsu). The truth is, people need to train at
all
>ranges of combat WHICH INCLUDES BOTH striking and grappling range.
>
>Peace
>Bryan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
Bryan Rumble
Weschi
In article <6em8v4$hjn$1...@henson.cc.kzoo.edu>, k94...@cc.kzoo.edu (Chad T.
Pastor) wrote:
Well Chad it is obvious that you are a novice striker becasue if you where
AN EXPERT you would know the differnce between an Eye Strike and Eye
Gouge. An Expert striker will HIT you in the eye with a fast boxing like
jab with a variety of hand positions availbale to him. Now dont tell me
grapplers can't be hit with the left Jab beacsue they can and are hit ALL
the time. It's too fast for anyone to block outright. So that being the
case just imagine if someone is jabing you with a hand weapon other than
the fist. One designed to penetrate the eye instead of just puffing it up
around the eye brow or lower face (The Infamous Black Eye). Now if your
question is wwhy dont expert strikers use these techniques in the UFC? I
dont know and don't care. My origanal point is that I would NOT use them
in a sporting event because of the damage that can be done to my opponent.
WESCHI
Weschi
> In article <01bd4f9e$527a0f40$13c6d3cf@default>, drjim <dr...@dconn.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
> ><01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
> >>
> >>
> >> Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
> >> <Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> >> >. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> >> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> >> > techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature
> >of
> >> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
> >oppnet.
> >> connect because they were too busy falling on their ass.
>
> >I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
> >good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
> >be able to gouge an opponents eye while he is shooting in.
Well the reason you disagree is that your entire knowlege base of fighting
is based on the UFC type events. Butif you had more experince you would
knwo that their are striking styles that do not seek to keep Grapplers at
a distance and/or stand around like blocking dummies waiting for the head
rush /shoot to take them down. My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight close
quarters combat. Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack, such as
the eyse , throat or groin. A master Striker such as a Weschido Boxer will
be able to strike anyone of these areas quickly and effectivly thus
immoblizing the attacker.
WESCHI
Evangelos Pantelis
You are right only to the extent that there are some techniques which
strickers don't use in sporting events. You are wrong in thinking that
grapplers aren't holding back as well. If you say that you would strike
the vital areas then I say the grappler would finish the choke or break
the neck, ankle or arm. These techniques also maim and kill and are
tried and true. Your topic is ludicrous.
Pathfinder
"when you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there"
On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Weschi wrote:
> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:12:19 -0600
> From: Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.ufc, rec.martial-arts
> Subject: WHY GRAPPLERS WILL NEVER BEAT STRIKERS!!!!!
>
> Just a word of advice too all you UFC fans who think NHB events are
> examples of realfights and think ground fighting Bjj/Gjj/Wrestling is
> beter than striking. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature of
> there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the oppnet.
> Why can't Strikers do the same?
>
>
>
> Simple, an EXPERT striker who is trained to stirke eyes , thorat and groin
> would devestae his opponet , maim and seriously inujure him/her forlife. I
> amnot saying this automatically wiins the fight, but it does mean hurting
> your opponet in a way that he/she will never recover from and possibly
> die.
>
> Most Master strikers such as myself simply willnot do this for sport. So
> when a grappler fights a Master striker he/she is really at an advantage.
>
> The grappler is very safe from being hurt beacsue the striker willnot want
> to hurt him/her. For a grappler tofight a striker in the ring is like a
> 300 pound man wresling a tiger , only the tiger has been declawed and has
> a muzzle. So unless its a REAL fight to the death we will never know which
> art is superior. Oh and for all you kids that grew up on the UFC and
> Gracie tapes, please dont belive the hype and bull shit about how you
> can't be hit with eye , throat and groin shots AND if you do it wont
> hurt. Believe it will Hurt and you canand willbe HIT!!!
>
>
> Weschi
>
>
Bob Savage
Alright, your art is the best, and you could never loose to a grappler. Can
we end this pathetic "mine is better than yours..." thread now?
Weschi wrote in message ...
bill...@juno.com
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:54:14 -0800, "Bob Savage"
<getridofth...@home.com> wrote:
>O.K. Have you ever really tried to strike at someones eyes with your thump
>at the speed of a punch? Your thumb will be toast, too.
Well if you did it right instead of try it works quite well. I thumb
sand bags quite often.
>bill...@juno.com wrote in message <6epbqv$olk$1...@gte2.gte.net>...
Jumpinmf
>> What in the hell did I have to do with the discussion of eye
gouges trippmis???? >>
LOL. shooter can dish it out, but he can't take it.
he'll add a "not like jumpinmf, who is a MORON" comment at the end of any post
no matter what the topic or who he's responding to, and then when somebody does
it to him, he has to ask why.
that's right, midget brain i'm talking about YOU.
Rodney A. Williams
Weschi wrote:
>
> In article <6em8v4$hjn$1...@henson.cc.kzoo.edu>, k94...@cc.kzoo.edu (Chad T.
> Pastor) wrote:
>
> > In article <01bd4f9e$527a0f40$13c6d3cf@default>, drjim <dr...@dconn.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
> > ><01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
> > >> <Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> > >> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> > >> > techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature
> > >of
> > >> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
> > >oppnet.
> >
> > >I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
> > >good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
> > >be able to gouge an opponents eye while he is shooting in.
>
> is based on the UFC type events. Butif you had more experince you would
> knwo that their are striking styles that do not seek to keep Grapplers at
> a distance and/or stand around like blocking dummies waiting for the head
> rush /shoot to take them down. My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
> close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight close
> quarters combat. Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
> strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
> will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack, such as
> the eyse , throat or groin. A master Striker such as a Weschido Boxer will
> be able to strike anyone of these areas quickly and effectivly thus
> immoblizing the attacker.
>
> WESCHI
Then put down the beer, get off the couch, and get in the octagon.
Andrew Jacobs
There has been an ongoing fued between you and I Jumpie. That
is the difference MORON. I have not been fueding with trippmis nor did
I have anything to with the discussion at hand. The only one that
dishes it out but can't take it is a little cunt named Jumpinmf. You
are a complete asshole Jumpie. Consider your self lucky that you I'm
not kicking the living shit out of your pussy ass right now fairy boy.
Michael Parker
> ... My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
> close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight
close
> quarters combat.
I certainly agree that close quarter strikes (elbows and knees, hooks,
etc..) are devastating...I think they call it Thai Boxing though...
Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
> strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
> will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack,
Wow...the secret is revealed, actually get CLOSE to a grappler and they're
helpless....
These people train in close quarter combat all the time...they are
proficient in maintiaing their balance while simultaneously breaking their
opponents...in a clinch between a grappler and a "weschido master" I 'd put
my money on a grappler any day of the week. This isn't based on UFC
either. personally I think the UFC is a load of c**p. Also, though I
train in jujutsu, I am more of a striker, so I have no bias there.
Jumpinmf
>> The only one that
dishes it out but can't take it is a little cunt named Jumpinmf. You
are a complete asshole Jumpie. Consider your self lucky that you I'm
not kicking the living shit out of your pussy ass right now fairy boy. >>
you are all empty words.
trip...@ix.netcom.com
Just a little jokey-joke there, Andrew. 8-)
trip...@ix.netcom.com
Have you really ever tried to strike at someones eyes with fingers at
the speed of a punch? If you miss and hit the forehead or other hard
parts, you fingers are toast. This is why gouging when in close or
striking when in close is much easier. One should punch, dodge and block
to close the distance. Then when in a clinch and/or when the odds are
better to strike at the eyes, sink a thumb up to about the first knuckle
and use the grip to control the head like a bowling ball.
Weschi wrote:
>
> In article <6em8v4$hjn$1...@henson.cc.kzoo.edu>, k94...@cc.kzoo.edu (Chad T.
> Pastor) wrote:
>
> > In article <01bd4f9e$527a0f40$13c6d3cf@default>, drjim <dr...@dconn.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Michael <li...@netrover.com> wrote in article
> > ><01bd4f89$0b616cd0$f611d1cd@gulf>...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote in article
> > >> <Weschi-1303...@e-mailex.com>...
> > >> >. You can't really have afair test of the to styles.
> > >> > Why? Beacsue sstrikers can't and won't use there most effective
> > >> > techniques in a sparring or sporting event. But grapplers bythe nature
> > >of
> > >> > there art can use their besttechniques and not hurt or injure the
> > >oppnet.
> > >> connect because they were too busy falling on their ass.
> >
> > >I totally agree. These so called expert strikers have never landed one
> > >good shot while they're in the octagon but on the street they are going to
Andrew Jacobs
You are an empty mind Jumpinmf.
Andrew Jacobs
OK trippmis.......
Paulo
trip...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Have you really ever tried to strike at someones eyes with fingers at
> the speed of a punch? If you miss and hit the forehead or other hard
> parts, you fingers are toast. This is why gouging when in close or
> striking when in close is much easier. One should punch, dodge and block
> to close the distance. Then when in a clinch and/or when the odds are
> better to strike at the eyes, sink a thumb up to about the first knuckle
> and use the grip to control the head like a bowling ball.
Yes, I have; and you too don't know what a good eye strike is. You
missed
what Weschi said. You aren't using a fist-like strike at all. There are
several methods and hand techniques. But IMHO the best techinique
uses a very flexible wrist and fingers. You want to flick the fingers
into the eye, scratching them into the soft materials.
What you're talking about in terms of solid penetration and insertion is
good for gouging, but requires you to make rigid fingers to poke. And
yes,
if applied at speed to a moving target will bust your fingers good if
you
miss-- but that's why THAT's a gouge, not a strike.
Paulo
"follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they
sought"
esco...@nospam.aetna.com
remove "nospam" from email address to reply.
>
> Weschi wrote:
> >==snip==
Rodney A. Williams
Andrew Jacobs wrote:
>
> There has been an ongoing fued between you and I Jumpie. That
> is the difference MORON. I have not been fueding with trippmis nor did
> dishes it out but can't take it is a little cunt named Jumpinmf. You
> are a complete asshole Jumpie. Consider your self lucky that you I'm
> not kicking the living shit out of your pussy ass right now fairy boy.
Yep me too....Coleman.
Bob Savage
O.K. Have you ever really tried to strike at someones eyes with your thump
at the speed of a punch? Your thumb will be toast, too.
bill...@juno.com wrote in message <6epbqv$olk$1...@gte2.gte.net>...
Bob Savage
Sorry, Bill, but I don't understand the first sentence.
bill...@juno.com wrote in message <6eq64c$i9t$1...@gte2.gte.net>...
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:54:14 -0800, "Bob Savage"
Alex Joneth
Wes...@insideconnect.com (Weschi) wrote: [in a different order]
>Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
>strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
>will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack, such as
>the eyse , throat or groin. A master Striker such as a Weschido Boxer will
>be able to strike anyone of these areas quickly and effectivly thus
>immoblizing the attacker.
So, Weschi, if Igor Zinoviev had been allowed to attack Frank
Shamrock's eyes in the last UFC, how would the fight have been
different? Remember, Zinoviev didn't need to close the gap, Shamrock
quickly moved to contact. You may assume that Zinoviev had "Weshido
Boxing" training that he could have used to strike at Shamrock's vital
regions.
Almost certainly, the fight would have not been different at all.
Zinoviev was unable to strike at Shamrock's face in general, let alone
his eyes in particular. Throat strikes were legal in the UFC for more
than 10 events and were the stated targets of more than one fighter.
Yet, none of any significance have ever occured.As far as groin
strikes are concerned, I can't think of any standing position safer
than a shoot. (other than running away)
>My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
>close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight close
>quarters combat.
On Mousel's BJJ forum, there was a thread minutes before the last UFC
where some college/high school wrestlers were talking about NHB
takedowns. One wondered why close in takedowns were not yet seen in
action. Another wrestler responded that the shooting takedowns have
been good enough so far.
So, the wrestlers (at least) aren't worried about taking a
close-quarters striker down. In fact, the consensus was that if
anything, close-in takedowns like the Fireman's Carry are potentially
more effective because of throwing damage ... Not unlike Shamrock vs
Zinoviev. [Note, this discussion took place before the UFC XVI so was
not a mere reflection of it.]
>Well the reason you disagree is that your entire knowlege base of fighting
>is based on the UFC type events. Butif you had more experince you would
>knwo that their are striking styles that do not seek to keep Grapplers at
>a distance and/or stand around like blocking dummies waiting for the head
>rush /shoot to take them down.
This is ... humorous. If we can't use the UFC to talk about real
fighting, what should we use? Karate point tournaments? Staged
demonstrations? Black Belt magazine? Or should we use the vacuous
pontifications of a "Master" of an obscure, apparantly untested
martial art?
Let's see, strikers practice striking. They don't practice takedowns,
that's grappling. Grapplers and crosstrainers practice takedowns. They
practice taking others down and blocking or reversing others'
takedowns. And now, you expect us to believe that a Weschido Boxer
(who can't REALLY grapple) has the tools he needs to nullify all
grapplers, just because he'd try to strike weak points.
Come on Weschi, you can do better than that.
Alex Joneth
GAHTU
> But IMHO the best techinique
>uses a very flexible wrist and fingers. You want to flick the fingers
>into the eye, scratching them into the soft materials.
?? This doesn't sound like a good attack to me. You want to drive your fingers
into the eyeballs, driving them back into the head. Not "flick the soft
material."
That's why personally I would only strike or gouge the eyes after I'm locked up
with my opponent, or after parrying an attack. Of course there are various
methods, one being this: If you direct all four fingers right between the eyes,
your fingers will separate at the bridge of the nose, sliding along the nose
into the eyes. I wouldn't do this at quite punching speed, however.
p...@mail.utexas.edu
On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:24:26 -0600, Wes...@insideconnect.com (Weschi)
wrote:
> As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
>some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
>examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
>Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
>>WESCHI
First, go see a therapist for this inferiority complex thing or you're
going to keel over with hypertensive stroke one day.
_____________________________
Paul R. Erickson
ARCLIGHT ENTERPRISES INC(DE)
Texas MBA 1998, Marketing
"A Spartan never asks how many of the enemy there are, only where they are."
-Charlie Beckwith, SFOD-D
p...@mail.utexas.edu
On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:12:19 -0600, Wes...@insideconnect.com (Weschi)
wrote:
s
>a muzzle. So unless its a REAL fight to the death we will never know which
>art is superior. Oh and for all you kids that grew up on the UFC and
>Gracie tapes, please dont belive the hype and bull shit about how you
>can't be hit with eye , throat and groin shots AND if you do it wont
>hurt. Believe it will Hurt and you canand willbe HIT!!!
>>Weschi
Try not distorting facts, nobody on the planet says that those shots
won't hurt. And groin shots are great but don't always work as well
as you think they do, a lot of times it's an impetus for the opponent
to try and finish you in the 5 or so seconds it takes before the nerve
shock sets in. Other times people keep fighting through it, pissed
off. Pray you land it square. Oh but of course you know this
already, from your extensive fighting experience.
p...@mail.utexas.edu
Weschi ( wrote:
>
>> ... My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
>> close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker.
Wow... and here it was I thought that grapplers' weapons were all
close-quarters techniques and that distance was the key... silly me.
But you're right, strikers SHOULD get as close as possible to a
grappler to negate their skills. (!)
>Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
>> strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
>> will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack,
Oh okay, and grapplers have no throws or takedowns from this clinch,
or ankle picks, duckunders, armdrags, etc. Neither will they shoot as
you close the gap, or fake the clinch and shoot under. Okay.
p...@mail.utexas.edu
On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:30:51 GMT, bill...@juno.com wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:54:14 -0800, "Bob Savage"
><getridofth...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>O.K. Have you ever really tried to strike at someones eyes with your thump
>>at the speed of a punch? Your thumb will be toast, too.
>
>Well if you did it right instead of try it works quite well. I thumb
>sand bags quite often.
Now thumb a more solid, moving, uneven, and curved-surfaced object
(such as a head would be, especially if you miss and hit the orbital
bone etc.) at speed. Bye bye, thumb.
p...@mail.utexas.edu
On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:08:50 -0600, Wes...@insideconnect.com (Weschi)
wrote:
Now dont tell me
>grapplers can't be hit with the left Jab beacsue they can and are hit ALL
>the time. It's too fast for anyone to block outright.
Umm, and of course there's no such thing as evasive footwork,
parrying, or slipping the punch (god forbid trapping and/or the RIGHT
jab). And of course no grappler by your definition ever trains either
against a jab or trains these defensive methods. And of course no
grappler ever actually uses the opponent's jab as an opening to drop
and shoot.
Eye jabs are quick, useful, and effective. But they are not the
end-all, be-all so please don't make drug-influenced generalizations
as usual.
>case just imagine if someone is jabing you with a hand weapon other than
>the fist.
And imagine if your target has just dropped below your jab (and/or
slipped it) and has moved in and locked arms around your waist....
This not exclusively a grappling move, and yet plenty of practicioners
both practice this as well as pull it off. But the eye jab; "it's so
fast it's unblockable" right?
> Now if your
>question is wwhy dont expert strikers use these techniques in the UFC? I
>dont know and don't care.
That's the principle of all your arguments right there. Little facts,
little true analysis, and little objectivity. But plenty of noise.
>My origanal point is that I would NOT use them
>in a sporting event because of the damage that can be done to my opponent.
Whatever. Send some of us your tapes.
Johnny Kincaide
Any thoughts?
VERITECH
bill...@juno.com wrote:
> Well if you did it right instead of try it works quite well. I thumb
> sand bags quite often.
That just sounds too perverted...
BTH
Michael Parker
How many fingers do you have???????????
10 right?
Including 'thumbs'
trip...@ix.netcom.com
This is the kind of crap that needs to be moved to rec.martial.arts.
Here is the bottom line:
Little bones moving at a high rate of speed and large thick bones don't
mix! Please stop giving us crap about "doing it right" and "works on
sand bags".
p...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:30:51 GMT, bill...@juno.com wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:54:14 -0800, "Bob Savage"
> ><getridofth...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >>O.K. Have you ever really tried to strike at someones eyes with your thump
> >>at the speed of a punch? Your thumb will be toast, too.
> >
> >Well if you did it right instead of try it works quite well. I thumb
> >sand bags quite often.
>
> Now thumb a more solid, moving, uneven, and curved-surfaced object
> (such as a head would be, especially if you miss and hit the orbital
> bone etc.) at speed. Bye bye, thumb.
>
James Welsh
A man can be judged by the quality of his enemies. Sorry jumpinmf,
based on that criteria you don't do very well.
--
-s-
James Welsh
My apologies. That should be criterion. I humbly beg the lists
forgiveness.
--
-s-
Paulo
trip...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> This is the kind of crap that needs to be moved to rec.martial.arts.
> Here is the bottom line:
> Little bones moving at a high rate of speed and large thick bones don't
> mix! Please stop giving us crap about "doing it right" and "works on
> sand bags".
>
You're still missing the point. Not all strikes have to break bricks.
Some target areas are soft, and you thus use a softer technique against
them, that way if you miss, you don't toast your weapon.
In my style, we do TOE kicks. That's right, using just the big toe, i
can stab at a vital area and do plenty of damage. Now, do i throw that
technique with the same sorta power i'd throw say, a sidekick where i
intend to hit with my heal. (well yes, but that's after 2 decades of
training to do it) .
Same with eye strikes, try using a flicking motion and just the tips of
your fingers. Now, i'll bet you can flick hard like that to a stone wall
and not really be too badly hurt... now suppose you target taht to the
softer areas of nose, cheek, and eye? Damn straight it'd hurt and could
even tear cornea and other soft eye tissues.
Paulo
"don't argue it if you don't know it"
Evangelos Pantelis
On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Weschi wrote:
> It has now become apparent that a whole new generation of kids have grown
> up on the UFC and think this is real fightong, Martial Arts etc. They pay
> hundreds of dollars for Taapes Cable and Grappling lessons. But what i
> anm wondering is the damge it has done to theses kids and Martil Arts in
> genral. It seesm ther are alot of misinformed youngsters out their these
> days.
I think the UFC has done a few good things for martial arts in that
it has shown that martial artist does not equal fighter. Hopefully this
means that martial artists will take their training more seriously and
take a more realistic aproach to it. Another thing UFC has pointed out is
that strength and size matters when you are in a fight. These are
advantages which martial artists must recognize and learn to deal with
instead of ignore. Before the advent of martial arts movies martial
artists at least somewhat understood the value of conditioning and weight
training. The big advantage which wrestlers, boxers, jujitsu stylists, and
mu thai kickboxers have is not just the style but in the way they train.
They have a better idea of how they can perform in real fight because they
train full force. I've said it once and I'll say it again, there is no
substitute for experience. You can do all the kata you want, it still
won't prepare you for a real encounter. This doesn't mean that other
martial arts are useless, they just need to wake up and realize that just
because they know some moves doesn't mean they have become invincible.
There is a big difference between the way I throw a kick and the way a
kickboxer throws the exact same kick. It may look the same but it won't be
as powerful. This is what you must realize Weschi, that knowing moves is
not the same as being able to use them, and it doesn't make you a fighter.
> And a whole new class off beer drinking,foul mouth talking idiots trying
> to prove themselves as REAL men.
Yes, there are guys like Tank Abot who get by on just brute strength
but you are wrong to place them in the same category as wrestlers, jujitsu
stylists and other real fighters.
> As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
> some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
As if twice a week lessons at some dojo makes you a great fighter.
One of the things scientists liked about the movie jurasic park despite
its many inaccuracies was that it got rid of the myth that dinosaurs were
slow moving brutes. As a former wrestler I can tell you that these guys
are anything but slow. Don't be fooled into thinking that pro
wrestlers are what real wrestlers look like. If you take a look at
Shamrock in comparison to the other guys on WWF you will see that
although he is not as big he is much more cut than the other guys. Also
those muscles which you see on Mark Coleman and Shamrock are a natural
result of their practice and weight training. I have taken several years
of martial arts and in few of them has the level of practice come close to
that of one wrestling practice. The amount of weight loss that goes on in
wrestling is insane. Being stronger and skilled in grappling are just two
advantages wrestlers have. These guys are also winning their bouts because
they are faster and MUCH more conditioned than the martial artists.
It may not seem like it because the guys are on the ground and
aren't busy swinging at each other, but grappling takes a lot more energy
than sparring.
> examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
> Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
>
> WESCHI
>
Martial art movies have hurt the martial arts a lot more than the UFC
has. People have developed these ideas about martial arts which have
turned into real big misconceptions. When they see martial artists get
beat these misconceptions are shattered and they believe martial arts are
useless because they did not live up to their unrealistic expectations.
Thus the martial arts gets hurt by its own reputation. You may not believe
that the UFC is real fighting but neither are martial arts movies. I have
always viewed the martial arts as being an alternative fighting style,
however the rules of fighting still apply. You need to be fast, strong,
well conditioned, aggressive, resistant to pain, in other words just plain
tough. I have met some real tough eastern fighters but they consider the
average dojo to be nothing more than a joke. If you expect to fight train
that way, don't go expecting to punch someone and have them get stunned or
knocked out in one blow if your hand hurts everytime you hit a bag. Its
just not going to happen. Another thing which martial artists must realize
is the difference between having athletic ability, defending yourself, and
going toe to toe with someone. Most schools advertise all three but you
will be lucky if you can learn just a few tricks for defending yourself.
Note: knowing these techniques will not make you a fighter. I think the
best way to repair the so called damage(in other words the reality check)
is by getting rid of all the Mcdojos out there and by providing people
with a more realistic approach to martial arts training.
Pathfinder
"when you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there"
Chad T. Pastor
In article <Weschi-1703...@e-mailex.com>,
Weschi <Wes...@insideconnect.com> wrote:
>Well the reason you disagree is that your entire knowlege base of fighting
>is based on the UFC type events. Butif you had more experince you would
>knwo that their are striking styles that do not seek to keep Grapplers at
These two statements really show how ignorant you are. You did not even
reply to my post and then you try to dismiss what I said indirectly by
saying my only experience is UFC type events, which is wrong. You really
should not try to talk about someone that you know nothing about. Besides,
part of the post that was talked about addressed UFC type events. If you
can answer stuff relating to that, then do so. If you can produce taped
evidence of what you say, then do so. If there's any other evidence of
fights with what you said below, then show it. Or put your cards on the
table and quit bluffing. I don't want hypothetical, I want real stories of
you doing this in real fights. I want as much evidence as you can produce.
>a distance and/or stand around like blocking dummies waiting for the head
>rush /shoot to take them down. My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
>close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight close
>quarters combat. Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
>strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
>will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack, such as
>the eyse , throat or groin. A master Striker such as a Weschido Boxer will
>be able to strike anyone of these areas quickly and effectivly thus
>immoblizing the attacker.
This is an interesting theory, but you really shouldn't let a grappler grab
a hold of you. How do you think they're going to do it? Did you ever
wrestle? Many takedowns are not bear hug type moves, as well as other
grappling style throws. I also hope that you have incredible balance or
you'll go for a ride. Just like in an earlier post, if you decide to do
these things, you'll raise the stakes of the fight. Remember that nothing
stops your opponent from doing these same things to you. It sounds like
your style tries to incorporate Wing Chun into your training.
Also, what do you do against a grappler that can "REALLY" strike? I heard
about the ones that can't. Tell me about the others.
Chad
>
>WESCHI
Rodney A. Williams
Johnny Kincaide wrote:
>
> Any thoughts?
Heh heh heh, ....Coleman.
Rodney A. Williams
Evangelos Pantelis
On 18 Mar 1998, Michael Parker wrote:
> > ... My art of Weschido Boxing teaches youto
> > close the gap with any attacker be it grappler or striker. And fight
> close
> > quarters combat.
>
> I certainly agree that close quarter strikes (elbows and knees, hooks,
> etc..) are devastating...I think they call it Thai Boxing though...
>
> Once you close the the gap on a grappler who cant REALLY
> > strike all he can do is resort to stand up clinch or grappling hold which
> > will make one of the three vital ares on his body open to attack,
What exactly do you think a stand up clinch is? That usualy only
happens between two wrestlers in a wrestling match. Against people who
don't wrestle wrestlers always take control of either one or both of the
other guys arms in a stand up clinch. A stand up clinch is where the
wrestler is the most dangerous, from here you can do all the cool throws
and body slams. Getting rammed into the ground when your hands aren't free
isn't fun. Its also quite hard to strike when your arms are pinned. I can
tell you that the way these guys can control your body will sometimes make
you feel like nothing more than a practice dummy.
Pathfinder
"when you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there"
>
> Wow...the secret is revealed, actually get CLOSE to a grappler and they're
> helpless....
> These people train in close quarter combat all the time...they are
> proficient in maintiaing their balance while simultaneously breaking their
> opponents...in a clinch between a grappler and a "weschido master" I 'd put
> my money on a grappler any day of the week. This isn't based on UFC
> either. personally I think the UFC is a load of c**p. Also, though I
> train in jujutsu, I am more of a striker, so I have no bias there.
>
>
>
Evangelos Pantelis
On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Johnny Kincaide wrote:
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
Mark Coleman is 250 pounds of slow moving, wrestling muscle. Now way
he could be Weshci...hahahahahahahahah, I'm sorry, I couldn't finish
writing this with a straight face.
Rodney A. Williams
Evangelos Pantelis wrote:
Getting rammed into the ground when your hands aren't free
> isn't fun.
The hardest thing to hit someone with....the ground.
Weschi
In article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.98031...@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Evangelos Pantelis <pant...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
What YOU must realsize is that I ama NOT comparing the Movies to the
UFC!!!! Where in the world did you draw that analagy from???????? So your
enitre point is mute!
> > And a whole new class off beer drinking,foul mouth talking idiots trying
> > to prove themselves as REAL men.
>
> Yes, there are guys like Tank Abot who get by on just brute strength
> but you are wrong to place them in the same category as wrestlers, jujitsu
> stylists and other real fighters.
I did not place them them. The promoters of the UFC placed them so do you
nd all the UFC fans that support them and their premise that the UFC is
somehow the proving ground for real fights! Face it TANK is in there along
with a bunch of others just like him!
>
> > As if 250 pounds of slow moving steroid muscle and wresling makes you
> > some how a man or great figher. Well thats my two cents ,anyone else have
>
> As if twice a week lessons at some dojo makes you a great fighter.
> One of the things scientists liked about the movie jurasic park despite
> its many inaccuracies was that it got rid of the myth that dinosaurs were
> slow moving brutes. As a former wrestler I can tell you that these guys
> are anything but slow. Don't be fooled into thinking that pro
> wrestlers are what real wrestlers look like. If you take a look at
> Shamrock in comparison to the other guys on WWF you will see that
> although he is not as big he is much more cut than the other guys. Also
> those muscles which you see on Mark Coleman and Shamrock are a natural
> result of their practice and weight training.
How do you know this?? History has showed us that must body bouilders take
some form of steroieds either legalor illegal to get big)
I have taken several years
> of martial arts and in few of them has the level of practice come close to
> that of one wrestling practice.
Well there ya go, you dont have much experince to judge. Ihave trained for
20 years, have fought in the street where it counts. Have beat grapllers
in the street that did not want to make me tapp out but wanted to killme.
So I speak withmore expertise thanyou on this matter than you my friend.
The amount of weight loss that goes on in
> wrestling is insane. Being stronger and skilled in grappling are just two
> advantages wrestlers have. These guys are also winning their bouts because
> they are faster and MUCH more conditioned than the martial artists.
> It may not seem like it because the guys are on the ground and
> aren't busy swinging at each other, but grappling takes a lot more energy
> than sparring.
Watching wrestlers win wrestling matches against other wrestlers and even
non wrestlers is no more proof wrestling is superior to srtiking than
wrestlers getting beat by boxers in a boxing ring is proof striking boxing
is usperior to wrestling. And I assure you that if your UFC big boys would
put on boxing gloves and fight in the wbc against Tyson and Holyfied they
would be KO ed in less than 10 seconds!!!!!
>
> > examples or thoughts on how this UFC/NHB menace has hurt the Martial Arts?
> > Or better yet how do we reapir the damge!!!!!!!
> >
> > WESCHI
> >
> Martial art movies have hurt the martial arts a lot more than the UFC
> has.
You should be on your knees thanking Bruce Lee for his movies beacsue with
out them there my not have been any interst in Martial Arts and your
precious UFC events.
People have developed these ideas about martial arts which have
> turned into real big misconceptions.
Sure there are some peole out there withmiscoceptions but i think most
peole know movies are entertainment. On the other hand most UFC fans like
you dont face the reality that your show is JUST show a its best and
merely poor excuse for sports entertainment.