In defense of Rickson Gracie - Part IV
The Killer Bear
Gracie is wrong. He actually has 1 loss and more wins. That's right - MORE
WINS. His one loss came from a Sambo competition.
Rickson Gracie, before the UFC era, had conducted many seminars. During
these seminars, Rickson fought many people in order to prove his beliefs and
philosophy regarding Jiu-Jitsu. If you view the GJJ in Action videos, you
will see Rickson, as well as Royler and Rorion, fighting many different
people during some of these demonstrations. Now you have to consider that
this was way before the era of developed NHB specimens like Mark Kerr. Back
then, all Rickson and Rorion were really trying to do was break the myth of
traditional martial art superiority. Most of the wins that Rickson has
stacked up were challenge matches without rules, without time limits, and
without the benefit of a referee or an official. In hind sight, it is very
easy to dismiss Rickson defeating a 4th degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do, or
a collegiate wrestler, as nothing more than east matches since his opponents
weren't schooled in reality fighting, but a win is still a win. One of the
main reason that his record is hard to substantiate is simple: no one really
needed to keep track of such a thing. One thing that is a fact, however, is
that the very last person to tap Rickson out was Rolls Gracie. NO ONE, and
I mean NO ONE, has tapped Rickson Gracie out in a fight since that time.
Some of you may be cynical and claim that it is because Rickson hasn't
fought anybody good. I disagree. But don't worry, I'll address this point
in a future post as well as give you guys some very good reasons for
believing that Rickson Gracie is not only as good as people say he is in
Jiu-Jitsu, but that he is also a formidable NHB warrior. I'm sure that I'll
take some flak for that one.
The Killer Bear
training session. Rickson Gracie has had such challenge matches within the
family itself, mainly to establish pecking order. Everyone in the family
will agree with the fact that the last time Rickson was tapped out in a
challenge match, friendly or otherwise, was when he rolled with Rolls
Gracie. Rolls, by the way, did die from a hang-glider accident.
Matt Palmer <dub.s...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:84futi$rf3$1...@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net...
>
> The Killer Bear <kille...@mad.scientist.com> wrote in message
> news:d6Ga4.64$jw....@news2.randori.com...
> ===
> hmmm, most points agreed. About Rickson having one loss, I dont agree. I
> think it was Samoa or may have been someone else mentioned they'd been to
a
> Royce Gracie seminar and obvioulsy at different points, Royce rolled with
> everyone in the class, whoever it was that wrote the mail said he'd tapped
> Royce, I imagine loads of people have tapped Royce when he is rolling, the
> guy also said he cheated but I am merely pointing out that tapping someone
> during a seminar or rolling does not account for a sprot JJ loss. All of
> Ricksons supposedly 400+ wins have come in challenge matches, MMA, NHB and
> sport JJ. Proper sport competitions not rolling around with friends and
> family, I bet Rickson has been tapped by Helio when he was a young boy,
you
> think this counts as a loss? As far as I am aware Rolls never fought
> Rickson in sport JJ, didn't Rolls die in 1978 or something? Most of
Rickosn
> competition wins came in the 80's, his last in 1987 but if he had fought
> Rolls it was when he was young and not in competition. Therefore he
doesn't
> have aloss at all, I bet his students have tapped him maybe once if there
> were two of them aand another with a cattle prod, but his unbeaten
> competition record stands bud.
>
>
>
TheDeadlyKisser
have aloss at all, I bet his students have tapped him maybe once if there
were two of them aand another with a cattle prod, but his unbeaten
competition record stands bud.>>
Rickson's loss wasn't by tap. It was by a throw (uchi mata) in a Sambo
tourney. This is also known as "total victory" (win). Ron Tripp is the guy
that beat him. You'll notice that Rickson includes Sambo in his record.
Tim McNellie
> Most of the wins that Rickson has
> stacked up were challenge matches without rules, without time limits, and
> without the benefit of a referee or an official.
Do you know this for a fact? Can you prove it? I'd be surprised if the
majority of his wins weren't from grappling only matches.
> In hind sight, it is very
> easy to dismiss Rickson defeating a 4th degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do, or
> a collegiate wrestler, as nothing more than east matches since his opponents
> weren't schooled in reality fighting, but a win is still a win. One of the
> main reason that his record is hard to substantiate is simple: no one really
> needed to keep track of such a thing.
Not only is it hard to substantiate, it's meaningless. If you're going to count
every fight or match someone has been in, every Gracie would have over a hundred
wins from seminars alone. Guys like Tank Abbott might have hundreds of
victories from bar fights. I can think of a couple people who might surpass
Rickson's record in before they're his age (and that's not counting jail and
prison fights).
It doesn't translate into NHB, which is what we're all talking about.
The Killer Bear
as the original UFC? Would you consider such matches to be valid? Although
an NHB match against an Hapkido instructor may seem like a walk in the park,
does it still count as a No Holds Barred match?
I can prove that these sort of matches did occur; not just for Rickson
Gracie, but also for Rorion, Royler, and Royce. Challenge matches are quite
common for these guys. When I used to train at the GJJ Academy in Torrance,
I saw a whole bunch of challenge matches that were NHB but are still
considered "unofficial" by many. I once saw Joe Pardo beat the hell out of
a rather large Brown Belt in Kyokushinkai Karate. This fight looked like a
brutal NHB match, but there is no record of this match other than the video
tape that Rorion kept and the testimony of guys like myself. After
discussing the topic of these challenge matches with some of the other
students at the GJJ academy that have trained with the likes of Rickson,
Carlson, and Carley Gracie, they have testified that this sort of thing
occurs quite frequently at a lot of the Gracie schools around the U.S. and
Brazil.
As for the his record of 400-0, I can assure you that there are well over
400 wins from these sorts of matches, most of them NHB from seminars. I've
seen many videos and have spoken to many credible people regarding this
fact. The number 400 seems to be a very arbitrary number. I believe that
this was estimated, since an actual list that can withstand scrutiny doesn't
exist. The number 400 has been used to represent the win collumn for
Rickson Gracie for quite sometime, despite the fact that he has had several
wins in NHB matches recently, including two against the ever popular Tomato
Can.
Tim McNellie <twms...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:386BB925...@pitt.edu...
Samoanpowr
it when I see more evidence) and the sambo match.>>
Rickson has admitted to the loss to Ron Tripp......he just claims that he
didn't understand the rules. What a load of crap! Rickson had competed in
plenty of Sambo tournaments that had the same rules.
On a side note; Rickson was a VERY good Sambo player. Rigan Machado later beat
Ron Tripp and Rickson beat Machado in Sambo as well as Jiu-Jitsu. Not going to
the Fighter A Fighter B card; Rickson's win over Rigan doesn't imply that he
could beat Ron if the got em up again, but it does show the level of skill that
Rickson had in Sambo. Tripp went on to be the World Champ after beating
Rickson.
My point after all that rambling, is that Rickson has played at very high
levels (albeit not as high as some JJ fans believe) in other styles as well.
Judo, Sambo etc. Even if he was never half the hype said he was, he was a very
good athlete.
Samoa.
tim mcnellie
<kille...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> What if the challenge matches during these seminars had the exact same rules
> as the original UFC? Would you consider such matches to be valid?
They're valid as fights I guess, but they don't mean much in the as far
as organized NHB.
>Although
> an NHB match against an Hapkido instructor may seem like a walk in the park,
> does it still count as a No Holds Barred match?
It doesn't count in the same context that we discuss other fighter's
records. People generally consider Tank Abbott's record as 8-7, not
600-7.
>
> I can prove that these sort of matches did occur;
I was asking if you could support your statement that most of Rickson's
wins come from no rules challenge matches. I could just as easily
claim that most of them come from grappling-only matches.
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Promajority
at the age of 20 after having
played in a highly competitive senior league which featured ex-NHLers and
ex-major junior and college players. The team for which I played in this
league used to have practices in which I would get scored upon by members of
my team. Should my goals against average and save percentage have both been
calculated to reflect the goals allowed and saves made in these practices
and should the goal total of the players have included what was scored in
practice? We would also have penalty shot competitions which looked exactly
like the ones you see in regular games. I was trying to stop the puck and
the players were trying to score so why not make them count as well?
Mark McGwire hits a lot of homeruns during batting practice. Do they count?
If one of McGwire's teammates
pitches to him in practice the way he pitches in a real game and McGwire
hits some more homeruns, do they
count? How many points did Michael Jordon score in practice and on outdoor
basketball courts throughout his
life and why not add them to his career total?
A local newspaper in my hometown recently featured a poll which asked who
was the toughest guy to ever live
in my region. The winner was a legendary bouncer named Gerry Barber who is
reported to have fought the
toughest and meanest guys you could imagine. Pro football players, gangs of
bikers, mob guys, and so on.
Whoever wanted to challenge him simply had to show up at the Chaudière hotel
in Aylmer, Quebec. Shall we
count Mr. Barber amongst the legends of the NHB world? He fought without
rules and without time limits so
what's the difference? What he did looks a lot like the early UFC's so why
not acknowledge what he did as
NHB? There were many witnesses who swear they saw Barber absolutely destroy
many opponents over the
decades so there is some truth to this legend. However, no one really kept
track but estimates indicate that
Barber didn't lose very often and that those who beat him he subsequently
beat so his record is probably
around 5000-4. If you disagree with this estimate that you completely
disrespect Gerry Barber and his family
and the only reason you question the validity of his record is because you
hate the Barber name and are
motivated by bigotry and jealousy.
If the same standard applied to Rickson's 400-0 record, or whatever it
happens to be, were applied to other
sports and other athletes, we would have statistical anarchy and would not
be able to determine who did what.
We would be scrambling to discover what had happened in practices and
pick-up games which of course
would be silly.
Those who insist that informal matches which took place during sparring
sessions, in bars, or on beaches, in
which it appeared as if the two participants were "trying as hard" as those
who take part in official matches, are embarrassing this sport. For the sake
of integrity let's try to draw a thick line between "official" matches
versus "unofficial" ones instead of relying on oral records and folklore.
Peter Hobday
Tim McNellie (twms...@pitt.edu) writes:
> The Killer Bear wrote:
>
>> Most of the wins that Rickson has
>> stacked up were challenge matches without rules, without time limits, and
>> without the benefit of a referee or an official.
>
> Do you know this for a fact? Can you prove it? I'd be surprised if the
> majority of his wins weren't from grappling only matches.
>
>> In hind sight, it is very
>> easy to dismiss Rickson defeating a 4th degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do, or
>> a collegiate wrestler, as nothing more than east matches since his opponents
>> weren't schooled in reality fighting, but a win is still a win. One of the
>> main reason that his record is hard to substantiate is simple: no one really
>> needed to keep track of such a thing.
>
> Not only is it hard to substantiate, it's meaningless. If you're going to count
> every fight or match someone has been in, every Gracie would have over a hundred
> wins from seminars alone. Guys like Tank Abbott might have hundreds of
> victories from bar fights. I can think of a couple people who might surpass
> Rickson's record in before they're his age (and that's not counting jail and
> prison fights).
>
> It doesn't translate into NHB, which is what we're all talking about.
>
Mark Kerr has said that if you count dojo wins, he has about 1000.
He also says that respect won't be given to those who have 500 mythical
dojo training victories aginst unknown opponents and then count them as wins.
Hey Rickson, want to fight anyone other than TakCan????????
Peter
CHZOG
it when I see more evidence) and the sambo match.>>
It did happen..Rickson landed flat on his back..head between Ron's legs.
Many claim..but is not true, that:
1) Rickson didn't know the rules
(bullshit Rickson compteted in Sambo before this day...becasue it was the
Nationals)
2) Rickson has a armbar in place....nope not true..see above.
3)never happened?...lol its on tape and in records...untlike sport JJ, and
submisison graplling tournies. Judo and Sambo stats w/names are kept in record.
The tape is around, contact a major Sambo Org. to find it.
CHZOG
didn't understand the rules. What a load of crap! Rickson had competed in
plenty of Sambo tournaments that had the same rules.
On a side note; Rickson was a VERY good Sambo player. Rigan Machado later beat
Ron Tripp and Rickson beat Machado in Sambo as well as Jiu-Jitsu. Not going to
the Fighter A Fighter B card; Rickson's win over Rigan doesn't imply that he
could beat Ron if the got em up again, but it does show the level of skill that
Rickson had in Sambo. Tripp went on to be the World Champ after beating
Rickson.
My point after all that rambling, is that Rickson has played at very high
levels (albeit not as high as some JJ fans believe) in other styles as well.
Judo, Sambo etc. Even if he was never half the hype said he was, he was a very
good athlete.>>
Agreed 100%,
No one should take away from the mans skills, he is undoublty one of the best
atheletes and skilled grapplers alive. But why tarnish the mans images (not
saying this is Ricksons doing) with lies.
IISergioII
I mean NO ONE, has tapped Rickson Gracie out in a fight since that time."
So what?
Wallid didn't "tap Royce out" either, because Royce happened to be in la-la
land at the time and was in no position to "tap out".
Hypeson reminds me of Rupert Pupkin (DeNiro) in "The King of Comedy," acting
like a big-time tv talk show host in his basement but being a nobody in
reality.
IISergioII
didn't understand the rules. What a load of crap! Rickson had competed in
plenty of Sambo tournaments that had the same rules."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just like a Gracie to make an excuse when things don't go their way!
IISergioII
Big deal.The same could be said about Oleg or any number of others.
IISergioII
a rather large Brown Belt in Kyokushinkai Karate."
Joe Pardo! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! The pride of the Gracie Academy!
What a come-down it must have been for him to get his butt kicked horribly in
the UFC!
Samoanpowr
Just like a Severn, Shamrock, Oleg, Ruas, Abbott, Coleman, Smith, Couture,
Jackson, Inoue, as well as "a Gracie".
Samoa.
Samoanpowr
Big deal.The same could be said about Oleg or any number of others.>>
Thats not the point of the thread. My point was that although Rickson lost to
Ron Tripp he was playing at a very high level in a sport OTHER than Jiu-Jitsu.
I don't see Oleg winning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournaments. So it is a "big
deal" in reference to the thread.
Samoa.
IISergioII
>I don't see Oleg winning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournaments. So it is a "big
deal" in reference to the thread.<
Well Oleg won a UFC tourney back in the days when "There ARE no rules!" could
be said with a reasonably straight face.
In that tourney he fought and beat THREE other fighters of THREE other
disciplines different from his own primary discipline (Sambo) -- not just *one*
other discipline such as jiu-jitsu.
OTOH, when Hypeson lost to Tripp (a loss Hypeson STILL apparently lies IMO
about if he claims to have no losses) that was one fight against one other
discipline outside of Hypeson's specialty of jiu-jitsu.
Samoanpowr
be said with a reasonably straight face.>>
And that has what to do with Rickson being a decent Sambo player as well as a
decent Jiu-Jitsu player? (see: "the ORIGINAL thread)
<<In that tourney he fought and beat HREE other fighters of THREE other
disciplines different from his own primary discipline (Sambo) -- not just *one*
other discipline such as jiu-jitsu.>>
Again see the ORIGINAL thread. This wasn't a tournament in another specific
style. It was a mixed martial arts event with mixed rules. The Sambo
tournament wasn't mixed and it didn't mix rules it was a "pure" Sambo
tournament.
<<OTOH, when Hypeson lost to Tripp (a loss Hypeson STILL apparently lies IMO
about if he claims to have no losses) that was one fight against one other
discipline outside of Hypeson's specialty of jiu-jitsu.>>
My point was; follow along because once again it goes back to the ORIGINAL
thread, that Rickson was and has competed against world class Sambo players and
that his skill was at that level even if he didn't win. He has competed with
world class Sambo players (Ron Tripp, Rigan Machado etc). That was the ONLY
point I was trying to make. That is irrefutable.
Samoa.
dmsp...@my-deja.com
Rickson
> Gracie is wrong. He actually has 1 loss and more wins. That's
right - MORE
> WINS. His one loss came from a Sambo competition.
How many of these wins can be substantiated? Are you trying to simply
determine that he has had a large number of fights which he has won and
there by illustrate that he is an accomplished nhb fighter at the world
class level? IF so you are going to have a hard time doing that.
> Rickson Gracie, before the UFC era, had conducted many seminars.
During
> these seminars, Rickson fought many people in order to prove his
beliefs and
> philosophy regarding Jiu-Jitsu.
Actually this is no big deal. Back in the 70's and 80's this kind of
thing was common all over the place. I was fighting challenge matches
against guys older and larger than me. If I were to include every
competition and fight I had ever been in my record would easily be 200-
1-3. The quality of the competition needs to be quantifiable for the
number to have some genuine meeting. In order to quantify the
competition you must be able to verify the fight and the opponent.
> Most of the wins that Rickson has
> stacked up were challenge matches without rules, without time limits,
and
> without the benefit of a referee or an official.
You can prove this then for 201 of the fights to make this a true
statment? Something concrete?
> One of the
> main reason that his record is hard to substantiate is simple: no one
really
> needed to keep track of such a thing.
Riiight. Okay. So what we have is pure conjecture. We are giving him
credit based on heresay, and biased opinion. Have you abandoned your
desire to have concrete evidence?
> One thing that is a fact, however, is
> that the very last person to tap Rickson out was Rolls Gracie. NO
ONE, and
> I mean NO ONE, has tapped Rickson Gracie out in a fight since that
time.
When was that? How old was he? Did he have any other loses after that
by any other means?
> Some of you may be cynical and claim that it is because Rickson hasn't
> fought anybody good. I disagree. But don't worry, I'll address this
point
> in a future post as well as give you guys some very good reasons for
> believing that Rickson Gracie is not only as good as people say he is
in
> Jiu-Jitsu, but that he is also a formidable NHB warrior. I'm sure
that I'll
> take some flak for that one.
I'll hold off on the flak thing until you have finished supporting your
conclusion. However the quality of the competition is VERY important to
the relevancy of the facts. By your apparent line of reasoning anyone
who has ever held the heavyweight boxing title (any of them) is a
formidable NHB warrior. They have had a huge number of fights as they
worked their way up (which are verifiable), in a sport with a much
larger field of competition, which has been practiced around the world
for far longer than BJJ. They have shown there ability to deal with
adversity and their offensive and defensive skills. And while boxing
isn't the same as MMA, the skills it develops are a key ingredient to
being successful, similar to BJJ.
IF we really want to do this right we need to have VERIFIED fights,
against KNOWN opponents, under SET rules, in a CONTROLED enviroment.
Anything else leaves to much room for error, which will tend to taint
the end result. Why don't you list out the known opponents Rickson has
fought their, height, weight, age and style, and what rules and
enviroment the fights took place in. IF you lack any of the information
just say so, hopefully no one will jump on it since the lack of
information can be considered when we try to evaluate it's importance
to proving Ricksons ability.
dms
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