[OT] US World Trade Center on Fire
Rose
your TVs on. Two planes have crashed into the World Trade Center.
Pentagon is calling it a possible terrorist attack.
Rose
Violet
"Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B9E119B...@my-deja.com...
Yes, I've been glued to the TV since it happened and it's just getting worse
as I'm sure everyone knows by now.... I always thought living in this
country meant being safe...... That was then, and this is now..... all those
innocent people killed by monstors that have no regard for human life,
including their own.
.... Vi (tearing up)
Silenus
I cannot believe what I am seeing. One of the towers has just collapsed.
Terrible, terrible. What can I say. I am in tears.
--
Silenus
Silenus
God no.
--
Silenus
Cleanthes
About 50,000 people work there.
All air travel is shut down in the US. International flights are diverted to
Canada.
Several explosions at the Pentagon, and maybe the Supreme Court in
Washington.
Anne
--
Anne
I can resist anything but temptation.
Mark A
>
> all those innocent people killed by monsters that have no regard for
> human life, including their own.
> .... Vi (tearing up)
I can't begin to describe how sick to my stomach I feel over this. :(
Jesus, we're quite possibly looking at the start of World War III here.
I'm not sure it can get any worse, there must be hundreds of thousands
dead, and I can't imagine the President taking it lightly.
And now the Pentagon's been hit too. Christ in a bucket, I'm going home.
Regards
Mark
Rose
The whole thing reminds me of Pearl Harbor.
I hope, nay, I pray to God that you're wrong, Mark. I live not too far
from Chicago and I'm sitting on top of a gas dump and a nuclear lab on
campus as well.
Rose
Rose
Thanks, Anne. I hate to say it, but you'd best look to your own
country. We don't know where these came from. We don't know if just
America is the target or not. Be careful. I say that to everyone. Be
careful.
Rose (who wants all of her ATX friends to remain safe)
Marcus Seeck
I cannot believe how anyone can do something like that, much less
devote time and energy to plan it. (and of course, the bastard who did
plan it is still alive somewhere).
If Bush is going to hunt him down and nuke him, he'll have my
blessing. Love is the way, and peace is the way, but in the faced of
this madness, extreme measures seem quite appropriate.
Marcus.
Member: FOBT, GGGHD, PIST
--
People are people everywhere you go, even if the people concerned
aren't the people the people who made up that phrase have
traditionally thought of as people.
Terry Pratchett, 'The Fifth Elephant'
RockScorpion
First of all, my sincere and heartfelt condolences to all affected, directly
and otherwise.
The shock has been felt as far as this little Rock on the Med. There are
people coming out of their flats on my block, first in shock to alert their
neighbours of what is happening across the Atlantic, now in anger at the
thought of all the innocents lost today. Materials losses can always be
replaced, you can rebuild, but the loss of a single life is irreplaceable
It is a small consolation, but the thought that the "thing's" (I refuse to
refer to them as human beings), who believed that this "guaranteed" them a
place in heaven as "martyrs" to their faith, are in for a shock.
This isn't an attack by another country, it is an attack by fanatics. Which
makes it all the more difficult to strike back.
What is required is for all free and democratic countries of the world to
unite with the US in the hunt for those behind this attack. They must not be
allowed to get away with this atrocity. Bring them in alive, let them face
trial before an international court. Let them know that they will not, ever,
succeed in intimidating the free peoples of the world.
This is an act of war against all the civilised nations of the world. The
world will strike back.
Be strong, you will rise above this.
Joe
--
Even the lion must put up with flies.
---Anonymous
Hanan
"Marcus Seeck" <mse...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9nldug$obm$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Where is Xena when you need her?
>
> I cannot believe how anyone can do something like that, much less
> devote time and energy to plan it. (and of course, the bastard who did
> plan it is still alive somewhere).
>
> If Bush is going to hunt him down and nuke him, he'll have my
> blessing. Love is the way, and peace is the way, but in the faced of
> this madness, extreme measures seem quite appropriate.
>
> Marcus.
>
In the meantime, South Texas Blood Center has issued an urgent call for
blood donations. If the casualties are anywhere near what they estimate,
there's a good chance the current NATIONAL blood supply will not be enough.
I'm headed out that way now. It's about the only useful thing I can do.
--Hanan
Rose
They just announced that over 10,000 are dead. I pray that what you
have written comes to pass.
Rose (sitting at work crying)
Bohemia
Please check in here when you can (if you haven't already).
Bo
kuei...@-remove-hotmail.com
Fortunately, although I don't work near the WTC (I have a friend who
does and who I have not been able to reach) this morning I slept
through the alarm and by the time I got up, it had already happened.
The people in my office are effectively stuck there, with all the
subways out. So oversleeping was a good thing.
I know this is a time for gut reactions, but perhaps I am too much of
a scholar. The world is full of dead innocent people and we have just
been very lucky of late. We have, perhaps, cherished the illusion
that overseas quarrels (or domestic problems, the source of the terror
is not known) can be dealt with at our leisure and with little cost to
ourselves. That is not always the case. For American and its
citizens and allies to lash out with nationalist, ethnic, religious
hate is perhaps understandable, but it also plays into the hands of
the terrorists, for whom overhasty and blind retaliation is like meat
and drink.
Find out who is responsible and deal with them, yes. But the seeds of
hope lie in the individual human heart and the seeds of hate and
violence also reside there. Unless we (and by this I mean the world)
try to resolve the causes and roots of conflict (which is also
difficult, because in many cases you have not a case of right and
wrong but of two rights or two wronged parties) we are simply praying
that the violence, which will be inevitable fruit of those conflicts,
will merely strike our neighbor rather than ourself.
Against the irrational we have little defense. Against the true
believer, whatever his or her national origin we not only have out
weapons of war and state organs, but our intelligence and our
humanity. The world is too connected now (assuming this was a foreign
attack) for anyone to assume that the problems in Belfast, or
Sarajevo, or Gaza, or anywhere need not concern us. For whom does the
bell toll indeed.
It is up to us what lesson we draw from this. Good luck to all of us.
LaoWombat
who now looks up when he hears a plane passing overhead.
--
[remove -remove- to reply]
"It was not always like this, of course. On occasion it's been worse."
-- John Gardner, "Grendel"
Hobbit
up in this cowardly attack. God bless you all. Stay strong.
Violet
should have left an hour earlier but couldn't leave my TV..... the horror of
it almost seemed unreal.... this couldn't possibly be happening in our
country.... but in retrospect, it has before, ... not to this extent, thank
God, but bad enough. We found the ones responsible and yet they are still
breathing and being fed three square meals in American prisons, probably
better than they were in their old country. A message *should have been
delivered then ,but as Americans, we showed compassion.... Well, enough of
the misplaced compassion.... IMO it's time to come to terms and accept that
we can't be loved by everyone and USA is not a country to mess around
with.... Harry Truman knew how to handle a similar situation.. It took a
lot of courage for him to give the orders to bomb but as a result, untold
millions of lives were saved..... I'm no great historian but this is just
too much to stomach.... In the Boston area, we are just hearing some of the
names of the people on those planes that were hijacked from Boston/Logan
Airport, and it gets very personal.. Again, as I said, innocent people,
gone and for no good reason...
..
..... I feel like crying and feel sick to my stomach and also am so angry
that these sick, depraved, monsters who thought this was their ticket to
Heaven ,were able to get away with this well thought out plan. I don't
think we've heard the end of this episode. I hope I'm wrong..... Here's
where we find out if we really are the great country that we have been led
to believe we are......Come on Mr. President, let's take action. How many
more people have to die?
..... Vi (still crying)
"Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B9E119B...@my-deja.com...
Misty
Misty.
(safely in Holland????)
"Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> schreef in bericht
news:3B9E119B...@my-deja.com...
Violet
"Misty" <mist...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:VHun7.197$io....@pollux.casema.net...
> My thoughts go out to all the people in the US.
> Misty.
> (safely in Holland????)
>
Until this terrorism is stopped cold by all peace loving countries.... no
one is completely safe....
.... but thank you for your thoughts, they are appreciated.
...... Vi
Razerkiss
You can see the cloud of smoke and debris all the way from here, Ocean County,
NJ.
I was going to go to Xena Night at Meow Mix tonight, too, so now I'm wondering
how everyone who I would've been hanging out with tonight is doing...
Ginger
Razerkiss
Ginger
Misty
All of the Dutch and foreign tv stations in Holland are showing the horrible
views of the crashes,fires and wounded and scared people.
I was actually in shock when I heard the radio at work at 3 in the afternoon
(Dutch time). We are in between two possible target countries, namely the UK
and Germany. We have stuff to think about.
Misty.
Wgregcox
Village, several blocks north of the carnage, and things are surprisingly
quiet. There's no traffic on the streets, only emergency vehicles, but plenty
of unusually subdued and quiet pedestrians milling about on the sidewalks.
It's very strange to look south on Sixth Avenue and not see the twin towers,
only plumes of brownish smoke.
So far, most of my friends and relatives and relatives in the area have checked
in, thank goodness, although I shudder to think what the final body count will
be.....
Greg Cox
Now on sale:
ROSWELL: LOOSE ENDS
STAR TREK: THE EUGENICS WARS
Misty
Misty.
"Wgregcox" <wgre...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20010911181707...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Atenea
hit, I just can't believe that such evil exists in this crazy old world of
ours.
I was watching the BBC news and thinking that it looked more like out of a
disaster movie than of reality, such is the scale of the masacre.
I was in New York in February 2000 for the Xena Con and of course I visited
the World Trade Center, like tourists do. I can't believe it's gone. I hope
all our newyorker xenite friends are safe and well.
I cry in my heart for all the people who died, got injured or lost somebody
today as a result of this barbaric terrorist attack. I hope that if there's
a God he'll be praying for us all.
--
Love,
Sammy
(alias Atenea la fantástica)
GGGHD
http://siemprexena.net
"Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B9E119B...@my-deja.com...
Karen
Space Center here in FL. where me daddy works) and the people responsible as
sick, crazy bastards. I had started crying right in the middle of a news
cast thing. My heart goes out to all those who have been affected by this
tragedy.
Alwayz.
Ren~
pointnj022
perished today? How can you be so shallow and wrapped up in a television
show... get a life and get a clue, there are real people who need real help....
WAKE UP!
Concerned American
Molly
> I've been following the news all afternoon at work since the first tower got
> hit, I just can't believe that such evil exists in this crazy old world of
> ours.
> I was watching the BBC news and thinking that it looked more like out of a
> disaster movie than of reality, such is the scale of the masacre.
> I was in New York in February 2000 for the Xena Con and of course I visited
> the World Trade Center, like tourists do. I can't believe it's gone. I hope
> all our newyorker xenite friends are safe and well.
> I cry in my heart for all the people who died, got injured or lost somebody
> today as a result of this barbaric terrorist attack. I hope that if there's
> a God he'll be praying for us all.
>
>
> --
> Love,
> Sammy
> (alias Atenea la fantástica)
> GGGHD
> http://siemprexena.net
I pray that people can keep their sanity and that there will not be
random attacks against Arabs all over the country. We need sanity to
counteract this insanity; we need love to counteract this hate. We
need courage in the face of this terror.
Molly
Razerkiss
something, but, like I said, I could see the cloud that hovered over the north.
It didn't seem like it was too far away, and I heard that it's actually pretty
dark just a few towns up. I was going outside and looking at it to remind
myself that this is no dream...
I can't believe it.
Greg, I'm glad you and your loved ones are safe. My heart goes out to all who
have lost people they care for in this tragedy.
Ginger
Rose
I know Marcus well enough to know that he is a concerned person. He
meant nothing bad by it. If anything, it was wishful thinking as we all
might wish for a Superman or a Batman or a Xena to deal with problems
that we really don't want to. It's human nature not to want to deal
with something of this magnitude.
Rose (who is also a Concerned American while Marcus is from Europe)
Rose
I'll probably be doing a bit of that also. :-)
Are we missing anyone else?
Rose
Rose
>
> My thoughts go out to all the people in the US.
> Misty.
> (safely in Holland????)
Sad to say, I don't think there is such a place as a *safe* place in any
country. It's just that the odds of something happening are less in
some places than others. I'd still keep my eyes open, Misty.
And thank you for your kind words.
Rose
Rose
>
> As I'm writing this, it's a little after six p.m. here in NYC. I'm in the W.
> Village, several blocks north of the carnage, and things are surprisingly
> quiet. There's no traffic on the streets, only emergency vehicles, but plenty
> of unusually subdued and quiet pedestrians milling about on the sidewalks.
> It's very strange to look south on Sixth Avenue and not see the twin towers,
> only plumes of brownish smoke.
>
> So far, most of my friends and relatives and relatives in the area have checked
> in, thank goodness, although I shudder to think what the final body count will
> be.....
>
you're saying. Please continue to keep us informed as best you can.
Rose
Rose
>
> "Atenea" <ate...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<Ojwn7.14212$iD.23...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > I've been following the news all afternoon at work since the first tower got
> > hit, I just can't believe that such evil exists in this crazy old world of
> > ours.
> > I was watching the BBC news and thinking that it looked more like out of a
> > disaster movie than of reality, such is the scale of the masacre.
> > I was in New York in February 2000 for the Xena Con and of course I visited
> > the World Trade Center, like tourists do. I can't believe it's gone. I hope
> > all our newyorker xenite friends are safe and well.
> > I cry in my heart for all the people who died, got injured or lost somebody
> > today as a result of this barbaric terrorist attack. I hope that if there's
> > a God he'll be praying for us all.
Right now, if there is a God, I'd be asking him why he let this happen.
> I pray that people can keep their sanity and that there will not be
> random attacks against Arabs all over the country. We need sanity to
> counteract this insanity; we need love to counteract this hate. We
> need courage in the face of this terror.
>
True words, Molly. There are quite a few very good Middle Easterners
here at the university. I, too, pray that people keep thier heads
together and do not take this out on just anybody.
Rose
Rose
Let us know. I'll be praying for them.
Rose
Violet
> who now looks up when he hears a plane passing overhead.
..... I know exactly what you are saying.... yesterday, (I live only around
sixteen miles from Boston) I was driving to a friends around mid morning,
this is *after it was reported that *all planes were ordered out of the sky.
I became painfully aware of a commercial plane in the beautiful blue sky and
was immediately filled with anxiety. I would never have believed that I
could feel that emotion just looking up at one of our own planes. My
feeling of safety is no longer viable given the horror of yesterday that
continues today and will for a very long time. I am still weeping for all
the lost, innocent souls and those injured beyond repair, all thanks to
maniacs with no regard for human life, including their own.
...... violet
Rose
Agreed.
I also just had a conversation with my sister and she pointed out that
most life insurance policies do not pay when something like terrorism is
involved. Also, many medical plans also do not cover this kind of
thing. Many people are going to be bankrupt from this.
Rose
Marcus Seeck
you are a very funny person, huh?
Ah hell, why am I even talking to you. My real message was beneath the
post opener, but I expect you didn't even read it.
If life were a tv show, then we could call on Xena to find the bad guy
and deal justice on him. Unfortunately, in real life superheroes are
not available, and I fear that the people behind this act against
humanity will go unpunished.
All this was condensed in my message opener, but I suppose it was lost
on you.
Marcus.
Member: FOBT, GGGHD, PIST
--
People are people everywhere you go, even if the people concerned
aren't the people the people who made up that phrase have
traditionally thought of as people.
Terry Pratchett, 'The Fifth Elephant'
Hanan
> Molly wrote:
> > I pray that people can keep their sanity and that there will not be
> > random attacks against Arabs all over the country. We need sanity to
> > counteract this insanity; we need love to counteract this hate. We
> > need courage in the face of this terror.
> >
> True words, Molly. There are quite a few very good Middle Easterners
> here at the university. I, too, pray that people keep thier heads
> together and do not take this out on just anybody.
>
> Rose
Agreed.
As it happened, I was actually in Arabic class (physically sitting in, not
just enrolled in) when word of Oklahoma City came in. My instructor, an
Egyptian by birth, was close to tears. There was a pall over the entire
department, which was mainly staffed by native Arabs.
As I recall, everyone assumed that it just HAD to be the work of Arab
terrorists. An understandable assumption, to be sure, but in the end an
incorrect one.
Even if the WTC does turn out to be the work of a few radical Muslim Arabs,
it would be as ridiculous to hold all the Muslims or Arabs of the world
responsible as it would be to hold all white people or Christians of the
world responsible for producing Timothy McVeigh.
--Hanan
Rose
I see they've issued warrants for the arrests of several people. Also,
the White House and AF-1 were part of the targets, not the Pentagon.
Rose
Nuncio
Firstly and importantly, so many people dead.
And, in particularly gruesome ways which don't bear
thinking about.
So professionally executed: what kind of organisation
and money must be behind it?
But also, this changes everything.
It feel as if our tools are turned against us.
Planes are a necessary part of life, and now they feel like
a threat.
Bush's grand plan to build a missile shield is shown up
for what it is: a failure to understand what a foreign policy is.
And, just maybe, one is forced to contemplate the kind of
frustration which allows this kind of terrorism to arise.
The world is changed forever.
We teeter on the brink...
Violet
"Nuncio" <metric...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:3b9fbbdb...@news.freeuk.net...
> Tragic and frightening on so many levels.
>
> Firstly and importantly, so many people dead.
> And, in particularly gruesome ways which don't bear
> thinking about.
>
>
> But also, this changes everything.
>
> It feel as if our tools are turned against us.
> Planes are a necessary part of life, and now they feel like
> a threat.
>
> Bush's grand plan to build a missile shield is shown up
> for what it is: a failure to understand what a foreign policy is.
>
> And, just maybe, one is forced to contemplate the kind of
> frustration which allows this kind of terrorism to arise.
>
> The world is changed forever.
> We teeter on the brink...
I am sure you don't intend it to be, but this must be great reading for the
parties that are behind this or the ones that think yesterday was a day well
deserved by USA.
... Vi
Aethelrede
Then what in the world do you think the non-stop TV coverage from the
USA since yesterday morning has been? It tells them they won.
They closed down the white house, the pentagon and the capitol, made the
senate, congress and the president run for cover and closed down just about
every US government office, plus many state capitols and offices and many
large corporate offices too. And in New York they caused the worst man-made
damage to a city in the continental USA since the British army burned
Washington, shut the stock exchange, which has disrupted businesses around
the world, and grounded all commercial flight indefinitely.
And the reaction to this from politicians and officials is just what
they want too: more regulation, more security checks, more restriction on
personal liberty: a total disruption of American life. Most of these people
used much stronger and far less positive language than Nuncio used in his
post, making things look far worse for the country and much more encouraging
for terrorists the world over.
The idea that the US President has declared war against a few hundred,
maybe a couple of thousand people must be making them feel that each of
them is the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of Americans, and thousands
of US military people. Talk about an ego booster: it took thousands of
trained Japanese sailors and airmen, hundreds of planes and a carrier task
force backed by the resources of an entire nation to inflict damage on a few
useless battleships: yesterday, two dozen men damaged the entire country
and changed it forever
It has proved to them how few of their people need die to cause an
enormous disruption of US society. When people are so filled with hate
and frustration that they will undertake suicide missions for their cause,
proving to them that a mere twenty or so can inflict such a shock to the
"only super-power in the world" is hardly going to make them stop planning
the next mission.
If the script for what we have heard on TV and radio since yesterday
morning had been written by anti-US terrorists, it would have been exactly
what we heard.
Nuncio
Those who were behind this do not view the world the same way that the U.S.
or "the West" do. This was a seriously horrible act, and I do not believe that
anyone from anywhere does something like this simply because they are somehow
intrinsically evil. It is a symptom of people who are very seriously unbalanced
in their view of what western civilisation represents. How did they get like this?
What is necessary to stop more people developing those views too?
Does that make sense to you?
We teeter on the brink because all humans exist on just the single world.
If any humans get to the point where killing many thousands of ordinary people
going about their lives seems a valid behaviour, something has gone seriously
wrong -- for everyone in every country.
A great injustice has been done. But jingoism is very dangerous.
Nunc
Violet
"Aethelrede" <æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote in message
news:ImRn7.17476$Uf1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
My only, and I do mean *only*, point was that I think at this time, we
should be standing behind our government, and not throwing stones and second
guessing what is right ...... that's just giving more amunition to our
enemies. As for the commentators doing just that, I don't think they are
doing that IMO, They have been describing the carnage and let's face it....
it was carnage and still is. I don't remember hearing them knock our
President or our government . and of course, there will have to be stronger
security at strategic areas. If nothing else, that lesson has been learned,
unfortunately too late for the thousands who have lost their lives thanks to
(as you put it) just a *few* people. I happen to think that it was more
than just a few people who caused this to happen. It's a mentality that
some of the followers of whatever group is responsible for this massacre
have. or didn't you see the happy faces and cheers on television coming
from a very distinct group in the middle east. Of course, it's not all of
the people in the middle east but it's sure more than a *few*...... The
pictures being shown on television showing the results of their handywork
filled them with joy.
I'm not going to get into a debate with you Aethelrede. I'm sure you can
out talk me any day of the week. I said what I meant and that's all I will
say....
>
>
Violet
For all concerned.... no question or disagreement from me on that
Nuncio....(thank you by the way, I just added a new word to my vocabulary)
.... Vi
Brithnoth
>
>
> I also just had a conversation with my sister and she pointed out that
> most life insurance policies do not pay when something like terrorism is
> involved. Also, many medical plans also do not cover this kind of
> thing. Many people are going to be bankrupt from this.
>
> Rose
General building/contents cover may also excludes terror attacks. In
the UK central government would cover such eventualities, as is the case
in NI. I hope the same principle is applied there.
thoughts to all
B
Brithnoth
>
> Tragic and frightening on so many levels.
>
> Firstly and importantly, so many people dead.
> And, in particularly gruesome ways which don't bear
> thinking about.
Indeed
>
> So professionally executed: what kind of organisation
> and money must be behind it?
>
I am not so sure on this point. To conceive such an assault is indeed
truly evil but bringing it about looks to have been very simple and
low-tech.
thoughts to all
B
Brithnoth
>
> I pray that people can keep their sanity and that there will not be
> random attacks against Arabs all over the country. We need sanity to
> counteract this insanity; we need love to counteract this hate. We
> need courage in the face of this terror.
>
> Molly
To which I would add that for the individual returning to normality is
our way of saying we are not beaten.
Having been 'missed' by the IRA bomb in Bishopsgate London (by exactly a
week, to the minute) walking back along a few weeks later was emotional
but *I was there again*.
thoughts to all
B
Aethelrede
>On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:07:58 GMT, "Violet" <vi...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Nuncio" <metric...@tesco.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> And, just maybe, one is forced to contemplate the kind of
>>> frustration which allows this kind of terrorism to arise.
>>>
>>> The world is changed forever.
>>> We teeter on the brink...
>>
>>I am sure you don't intend it to be, but this must be great reading for
the
>>parties that are behind this or the ones that think yesterday was a day
well
>>deserved by USA.
>>
>>... Vi
>>
>
>Those who were behind this do not view the world the same way that the U.S.
>or "the West" do. This was a seriously horrible act, and I do not believe
that
>anyone from anywhere does something like this simply because they are
somehow
>intrinsically evil. It is a symptom of people who are very seriously
unbalanced
>in their view of what western civilisation represents.
I don't think that's true. Look at wars throughout time: people do
obscenely brutal things, and risk their lives, and even do things that they
know will kill them (and I'm talking about hundreds, if not thousands or
hundreds of thousands, of normal, ordinary Western people over centuries,
not just "Those" non-Westerners like the Kamikazi pilots or suicide bombers
or the two dozen people on those planes yesterday), for their country or for
their way of life.
And think of what it takes to burn someone to death for their religion,
and even more, think of what it takes to believe so strongly that you think
it's beter to be burned than change your beliefs. That happened in the
west: In Spain, most European counties and right in London too (Smithfield,
Tower Hill among other places), and in other parts of the British Isles too.
Fanaticism isn't just something that makes "them" act oddly: there are
people in Europe and in the US who are part of society and western
civilization who are by your definition "seriously unbalanced" (i.e.
"religious").
I found out yesterday that at least one person I work with believes,
utterly, that this attack on NYC and Washington, is a sign that "The End
Times" are starting and that Armageddon is only a few years ahead. And
this man is an educated, long-time information systems professional. I'm
not too sure what he'd do for his religion, let's just say I wouldn't attack
the church or rip up a bible around him.
>How did they get like this?
>What is necessary to stop more people developing those views too?
That really is too big a question to even think of discussing in a forum
like this.
>Does that make sense to you?
>
>We teeter on the brink because all humans exist on just the single world.
>If any humans get to the point where killing many thousands of ordinary
people
>going about their lives seems a valid behaviour, something has gone
seriously
>wrong -- for everyone in every country.
You never met anyone who was in bomber command (or its equivalent in the
USAAF, or the German bomber squads) in WW II? Anyone who was in a bomber
crew killed thousands of ordinary people who were trying to go about their
lives.
It is unfortunately very easy for normal, ordinary people to believe
what they hear when they are told that going off and killing people in
large numbers is good, and moral.
>A great injustice has been done. But jingoism is very dangerous.
It most certainly is. Specially when it's the attitude of a complacent
and essentially non-military populace, who pay a tiny fraction of their
fellows to fight for them(1). I've been wondering how different the
opinions I've heard over the past 36 hours would be if the "leaders"
mouthing them were expected to actually join in the "war" they've declared,
and put their own butts on the line. Bush senior during desert storm knew
what he was sending people into: Bush junior only has it to his advantage
that he isn't a self admitted draft-dodger.
(1)There are obvious parallels between the USA today and Britain on the eve
of the Crimean war, when "Jingoism" was first named.
--
"Any man who is under 30 and is not a liberal has no heart ; and any
man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
Sir Winston Churchill, 1874-1965.
Florian Blaschke
"Hanan" <ha...@day32.com> schrieb...
>
> "Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote...
'The jews, the muslims and the christians, they've all got it
wrong: the people of the world only divide into two kinds: One
sort with brains who hold no religion; the other with religion
and no brain.'
Abu'lalah al muri, philosopher poet, Aleppo, Syria (973-1057)
according to The Crusades (with Terry Jones), BBC, 199x
In those times, Muslim civilization was flourishing, and the leaders of the
underdeveloped Christian countries were the fanatics.
Being religious is not equal to being narrowminded, however. Only faith
without common sense e is dangerous.
Personally, I have no interest in vengeance or punishment, only in
prevention.
--
Florian
GGGHD
Rose
Not as far as I know. There have been quite a few major corporations as
well as minor ones and individuals donating money for relief efforts,
though.
Nice to hear from you again, Brithnoth.
Rose
Rose
Oh, wow! That was a close call. Glad you're okay.
I think you and quite a few others could give us quite a bit of
information on how to live with terrorism. God knows our innocence on
the subject is at an end. (We've all been aware of it, it just hasn't
touched most of us in quite this way.)
Rose
Rose
What both of you say is true. Yet, as human beings, we cannot but help
talking about it.
What you have written, though, Aeth, calls to mind another group of men,
a dozen in all, that changed the course of England and Ireland. His
name was Michael Collins and he engineered, though his own form of
terrorism, the release of most of Ireland from England's grasp. But
unlike Osama Bin Ladin and any other fanatical group, he took care to
try to avoid innocent people being caught in the middle. As I recall,
it didn't always work out that way, but he tried.
This group, however... Osama Bin Ladin is not a Michael Collins, that's
for sure. He doesn't care who gets killed. Just so his own ends are
achieved.
Rose
Rose
very lax about security within her own borders.
I guess many Americans would like to believe that we're "untouchable"
but, as was proved Tuesday, that is not the case.
Rose
S L Green
<æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote:
>Violet wrote in message ...
>>
>>"Nuncio" <metric...@tesco.net> wrote in message
>>news:3b9fbbdb...@news.freeuk.net...
>>> Tragic and frightening on so many levels.
[snipped]
>>> We teeter on the brink...
>>
>>I am sure you don't intend it to be, but this must be great reading for the
>>parties that are behind this or the ones that think yesterday was a day well
>>deserved by USA.
>
> Then what in the world do you think the non-stop TV coverage from the
>USA since yesterday morning has been? It tells them they won.
> They closed down the white house, the pentagon and the capitol, made the
>senate, congress and the president run for cover and closed down just about
>every US government office, plus many state capitols and offices and many
>large corporate offices too. And in New York they caused the worst man-made
[snipped]
>enormous disruption of US society. When people are so filled with hate
>and frustration that they will undertake suicide missions for their cause,
>proving to them that a mere twenty or so can inflict such a shock to the
>"only super-power in the world" is hardly going to make them stop planning
>the next mission.
The problem with being a "super-power" is that there is always someone
trying to knock you off of the Hill.<g> And these Suicide Incendiary
Bombers have succeeded in doing exactly that... Capital Hill fled for
safety! Which is exactly what the Secret Service is supposed to do
with them in impending threat.
I'd like to be one of the Cheer Leaders and help bolster the ego of my
'fellow' Americans, but Declarations of War will do no good when the
Rules of Engagement are founded in a "One-way ticket to Heaven". The
only problem with God, is that every one has a *different* god, and
the Rules of Engagement change from god to god.
Personally? I'm surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened long
before now... why? Because of the very design of our government.
But, like it or not, those words to the effect, '... you may now move
about the country' are forever changed. The face of freedom has been
inoperably scarred.
Yes, the SIBs virtually shut down America... even BNA (Briley National
Airport - Nashville Airport), The Federal Building in Nashville, the
State Buildings... even schools and other institutions shut down and
sent people home. And in some ways I'm comforted, if not glad, that
it took so little time to shut down our borders, airlines and key
installations because I really didn't think this country still had it
in it to respond so quickly!
However, what scares me most of all is the number of 'citizens' being
interviewed by the news media who are so willing and eager to give up
some of their Rights in order to stop International Terrorism. I
wonder if they have even considered the far reaching consequences of
giving up any of their Rights? How long will they 'keep the faith'
when they have to endure Check-Point-Charlies? When they have to
stand aside and let the SWAT Teams storm through their homes in search
of a 'tip' about some terrorist group being housed in their basement?
When they are dragged out of their beds at night and shuttled to
security areas because Martial Law has been implemented? And what
will they have to say about it when the government starts herding
certain 'types' of people into Detainment Camps, like they did the
recently nationalized people from Japan, just after the bombing of
Pearl Harbor? Will they consider *those* people to not have any
Rights, since they haven't been citizens for as long as they have?
Will they consider it an "Act of National Defense"? Or does
'citizenship' mean *all* citizens, regardless of the longevity of
their 'commitment'? Is Democracy only for those of us whose parents
and grandparents and great-great-grandparents were already citizens?
Ft. Campbell is on Full Alert, as well, and the local news coverage of
people being 'funneled' through a *single* gate, when they used to
have access through numerous gates... it is taking *hours* to drive
just a few miles to get into the base... how long will their patience
last when this goes on, and on, and on, and on?
America is not used to being 'funneled' in our freedoms...
Now I'm wondering how many of the Airlines are going to survive this
financial burden... not just the 2 days, so far, of no commerce or
incoming revenue, but the additional strain, both financially and
physically of implementing all the new 'requirements' for security
when most of the airlines were already on shaky financial territory?
Add to it the backlash of how many people are going to be afraid to
'fly' after *this* blow!?!?!? There might not be any airlines to
inspect your luggage.
Our airlines might not be flying, but the American flag *is* still
flying.
However, the 'freedoms' of Freedom have already been irreversibly
altered. Now the War on Terrorism has landed on American soil and the
American People are ill equipped to deal with the reprocussions of
'limited freedom'.
- Sylvia, who has been 'on leave' for a long time, but was wondering
if the ng was still standing after all the events of the last couple
of days. Glad to see a few familiar faces. :-)
Rose
> The problem with being a "super-power" is that there is always someone
> trying to knock you off of the Hill.<g> And these Suicide Incendiary
> Bombers have succeeded in doing exactly that... Capital Hill fled for
> safety! Which is exactly what the Secret Service is supposed to do
> with them in impending threat.
Sometimes it's better to live and fight another day, too. Had they
stayed without full knowledge of what was going on, things might be even
worse.
> I'd like to be one of the Cheer Leaders and help bolster the ego of my
> 'fellow' Americans, but Declarations of War will do no good when the
> Rules of Engagement are founded in a "One-way ticket to Heaven". The
> only problem with God, is that every one has a *different* god, and
> the Rules of Engagement change from god to god.
That is true. Fanatics are very hard to fight because of their
beliefs. And while you hate to do it, sometimes these people leave you
with no choice but to send them where they want to go. I don't advocate
war, personally, I hate it. But sometimes there's no choice.
It seems to me that a worse punishment would be life in prison for these
people. It sure wouldn't be paradise then, would it?
> Personally? I'm surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened long
> before now... why? Because of the very design of our government.
> But, like it or not, those words to the effect, '... you may now move
> about the country' are forever changed. The face of freedom has been
> inoperably scarred.
>
> Yes, the SIBs virtually shut down America... even BNA (Briley National
> Airport - Nashville Airport), The Federal Building in Nashville, the
> State Buildings... even schools and other institutions shut down and
> sent people home. And in some ways I'm comforted, if not glad, that
> it took so little time to shut down our borders, airlines and key
> installations because I really didn't think this country still had it
> in it to respond so quickly!
America has been ready since the cold war, or even before that...WWII,
to react swiftly. It is nice to know that we can do that. I think,
too, that Y2K has also helped us prepare. I know that I've maintained
my own Y2K preparations since then for any kind of an emergency, mainly
weather related, though. Still, I can hold out if need be for a while.
Which is more than many other people can say, hence the panic that
ensued Tuesday afternoon.
> However, what scares me most of all is the number of 'citizens' being
> interviewed by the news media who are so willing and eager to give up
> some of their Rights in order to stop International Terrorism. I
> wonder if they have even considered the far reaching consequences of
> giving up any of their Rights? How long will they 'keep the faith'
> when they have to endure Check-Point-Charlies? When they have to
> stand aside and let the SWAT Teams storm through their homes in search
> of a 'tip' about some terrorist group being housed in their basement?
> When they are dragged out of their beds at night and shuttled to
> security areas because Martial Law has been implemented? And what
> will they have to say about it when the government starts herding
> certain 'types' of people into Detainment Camps, like they did the
> recently nationalized people from Japan, just after the bombing of
> Pearl Harbor? Will they consider *those* people to not have any
> Rights, since they haven't been citizens for as long as they have?
> Will they consider it an "Act of National Defense"? Or does
> 'citizenship' mean *all* citizens, regardless of the longevity of
> their 'commitment'? Is Democracy only for those of us whose parents
> and grandparents and great-great-grandparents were already citizens?
This country has weathered this kind of thing before during WWII. It is
the knowledge that it would be more temporary that permanent - some of
it will remain, yes. But most of it would not. People adjust and adapt
as they have to in order to survive. Such is human nature. Yet in the
back of most American's minds is the fact that we really wouldn't have
given up our basic freedoms. The Constitution defends them.
As for the detainment camps, I don't think things would be handled the
way that they were before. Keep in mind that we have technology today
that we didn't before. It's possible to keep track of people and yet
let them go about their lives. I look for investigations to go on, but
you know, even you or I could be counted as terrorists (and I'm not
related to anybody in any middle eastern country. My connections are
all Scandanavians.)
> Ft. Campbell is on Full Alert, as well, and the local news coverage of
> people being 'funneled' through a *single* gate, when they used to
> have access through numerous gates... it is taking *hours* to drive
> just a few miles to get into the base... how long will their patience
> last when this goes on, and on, and on, and on?
As I said before, America has come through this kind of thing with
flying colors. All we have to do is take a chapter out of the book of
"The Greatest Generation" - the country during WWII. These people acted
with patience and responsibility because they had to. The threat out
there was far greater than what we currently face. Our biggest problem
is ourselves. We have become the *me, me, me* generation and have not
truly learned what our immediate ancestors already knew -- we have to
work together to overcome the threat. The kind of thing that you are
pouring out here can only lead to our downfall.
> America is not used to being 'funneled' in our freedoms...
>
> Now I'm wondering how many of the Airlines are going to survive this
> financial burden... not just the 2 days, so far, of no commerce or
> incoming revenue, but the additional strain, both financially and
> physically of implementing all the new 'requirements' for security
> when most of the airlines were already on shaky financial territory?
> Add to it the backlash of how many people are going to be afraid to
> 'fly' after *this* blow!?!?!? There might not be any airlines to
> inspect your luggage.
I think we'll go back to flying. I think you're being very pessimistic
about this whole thing. Get a grip.
> Our airlines might not be flying, but the American flag *is* still
> flying.
May she continue to be.
> However, the 'freedoms' of Freedom have already been irreversibly
> altered. Now the War on Terrorism has landed on American soil and the
> American People are ill equipped to deal with the reprocussions of
> 'limited freedom'.
We've done it before, we can do it again.
I think we're more than prepared. We simply have to practice patience.
And we are proving that we can stand together in solidarity.
From what you've written, I get the feeling that you're extremely
pessimistic about America and its chances. I think we've a better
chance than you do. We need to pull together, not pull apart. And that
is what you have written, a pull-apart note. We need to focus on the
good side of things, not the bad. Sure, we may have to wait a bit. But
we have to practice patience. We have to lend support to each other.
We have to look inside ourselves and tell ourselves that we'll make it.
That we'll do what has to be done to keep our freedoms. Because, if we
don't, we are doomed if we follow your point of view.
Rose [proud to be an American and a member of the Ladies Auxiliary of
the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW)]
Violet
Right on Rose! Well said. Can't add to what you have posted.... Thanks a
lot. ;-0
....Vi (also a proud American !who still has hope that the good shall
prevail over evil.)
Rose
>
> In article <3BA0BE88...@my-deja.com>, Rose says...
> >
>
> >I guess many Americans would like to believe that we're "untouchable"
> >but, as was proved Tuesday, that is not the case.
> >
>
>
Yeah, I believe you're right. I just want us to be "touching" the right
people back.
Rose
S L Green
>S L Green wrote:
>
>> The problem with being a "super-power" is that there is always someone
>> trying to knock you off of the Hill.<g> And these Suicide Incendiary
>> Bombers have succeeded in doing exactly that... Capital Hill fled for
>> safety! Which is exactly what the Secret Service is supposed to do
>> with them in impending threat.
>
>Sometimes it's better to live and fight another day, too. Had they
>stayed without full knowledge of what was going on, things might be even
>worse.
Precisely!<g>
>> I'd like to be one of the Cheer Leaders and help bolster the ego of my
>> 'fellow' Americans, but Declarations of War will do no good when the
>> Rules of Engagement are founded in a "One-way ticket to Heaven". The
>> only problem with God, is that every one has a *different* god, and
>> the Rules of Engagement change from god to god.
>
>That is true. Fanatics are very hard to fight because of their
>beliefs. And while you hate to do it, sometimes these people leave you
>with no choice but to send them where they want to go. I don't advocate
>war, personally, I hate it. But sometimes there's no choice.
We do what we have to do for the sake of National Defense.
>It seems to me that a worse punishment would be life in prison for these
>people. It sure wouldn't be paradise then, would it?
Oh, I don't know... these days American prisons have color TV, heat
and air, 3 square meals a day, clean linens, college educations,
better health care than most non-imprisoned citizens can afford...
maybe we need to consider some other punishment for them.<g>
[snipped]
>From what you've written, I get the feeling that you're extremely
>pessimistic about America and its chances. I think we've a better
>chance than you do. We need to pull together, not pull apart. And that
>is what you have written, a pull-apart note. We need to focus on the
No. Indeed it is a 'cautionary' note... while I am just as willing to
do what is needed to help pull us through, let's not get in too much
haste and think we can 'suspend' our Rights indefinitely and then pick
of the pieces some other day. It doesn't work that way in America.
Even though this is a totally different type of 'enemy' than any of
our previous wars have fought, they fail to consider one thing...
American Determination!
We might put up with Check Point Charlies for a little while, but it
will eventually reach a point where the American People say, "Enough"!
Some good news, this morning... it was suggested that the government
be placed at airports to do all these new security changes, and the
resounding reaction to that was *NO!*. Let's also not forget that air
travel is only one of the choices of transportation in this country...
although the Transportation Department, and FAA have significant
authority over it, they do not own it. Air lines in America are owned
by private Commercial concerns, and are a part of the competitive
marketplace... maybe air travel advertising will change and start
promoting "We have the most secure air line on the globe".<g> "Come
fly with us!"<vbg>
Sylvia, daughter of a WWII Vet :-)
Brithnoth
Rose wrote:
>
> Nice to hear from you again, Brithnoth.
>
> Rose
Yes I've been off on one of my 3 week holidays again, to come back to
1000 mails ( and then this lot :-( )
Follow that with all the holiday piccies back, need scanning and putting
on the site and I'll be needing another one !
regards
B
Aethelrede
Taking military action against any country would be a big mistake IMO.
The result will be to kill even more totally innocent men. women and
children who already have harder lives than anyone in this country can
imagine, and who have no say in what their rulers do. It will effectively
make the US Government and Air Force into major scale murderers, no better
than the terrorists they so deplore. And all these people will have
surviving relatives who will be willing recruits to replace any terrorists
killed or handed over for trial. People who now don't really think that the
USA is "The Great Satan" will become implicit believers, and will teach
their children to hate the USA too. It would be the worst thing to do.
If these people had operated out of a democracy, maybe threats of
military action would have an effect, because the people who would be the
victims could force their leader to turn them over. In Afghanistan there's
a civil war going on, and most people in that country have no say at all in
how it's run. Besides, the people who approve of the Taliband are the
peasants out in the country: it's the people in the cities, who are mostly
somewhat westernised and approve of the USA who will get bombed and will
have their opinions radically changed.
But the USA wants action, violent action, against whom they don't seem
to care as long as they're Muslim, and congress and the prez will do the
wrong thing with the best of intentions, and make everything even worse.
Aethelrede
>
>Personally? I'm surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened long
>before now... why? Because of the very design of our government.
>But, like it or not, those words to the effect, '... you may now move
>about the country' are forever changed. The face of freedom has been
>inoperably scarred.
>
>Yes, the SIBs virtually shut down America... even BNA (Briley National
>Airport - Nashville Airport), The Federal Building in Nashville, the
>State Buildings... even schools and other institutions shut down and
>sent people home. And in some ways I'm comforted, if not glad, that
>it took so little time to shut down our borders, airlines and key
>installations because I really didn't think this country still had it
>in it to respond so quickly!
>
>However, what scares me most of all is the number of 'citizens' being
>interviewed by the news media who are so willing and eager to give up
>some of their Rights in order to stop International Terrorism. I
>wonder if they have even considered the far reaching consequences of
>giving up any of their Rights? How long will they 'keep the faith'
>when they have to endure Check-Point-Charlies? When they have to
>stand aside and let the SWAT Teams storm through their homes in search
>of a 'tip' about some terrorist group being housed in their basement?
You only have to look at CNN (turn to any channell: it's all CNN all the
time on most of them) to see that this is happening already: the US capitol
was evacuated for the second time in its history, and in the past three
days. Nut-heads all over the country are getting off on phoning in threats
and then watching the results live on TV.
You only have to look at the UK to see the avid was police have siezed
on laws aimed a terrorism to apply them to anyone and everyone, and the
erosion of rights over the last 25 years: almost every country in the EEC
now guarantees its citizens more freedom that the UK does.
>When they are dragged out of their beds at night and shuttled to
>security areas because Martial Law has been implemented? And what
>will they have to say about it when the government starts herding
>certain 'types' of people into Detainment Camps, like they did the
>recently nationalized people from Japan, just after the bombing of
>Pearl Harbor? Will they consider *those* people to not have any
>Rights, since they haven't been citizens for as long as they have?
It seems to me that most Americans would be quite happy to see Arabs or
even all Muslims, put under some restraint, if not "sent back where they
came from". The degree of hatred against a group of some of the most
law-abiding people you could meet is astounding (I may be biased here: I
knew a lot of Moslems back in England, and after visiting Turkey, a country
with a secular government for almost 100 yeears, but abot 99% Moslem, I
would probably be one if I belonged to any formal religion). Even the word
"terrorist" seems in the past few years to have been replaced by eithe
"Moslem terrorist" or "Arab terrorist".
>Will they consider it an "Act of National Defense"? Or does
>'citizenship' mean *all* citizens, regardless of the longevity of
>their 'commitment'? Is Democracy only for those of us whose parents
>and grandparents and great-great-grandparents were already citizens?
Not in the USA. Every generation seems to bring a new set of ethnic
immigrants, and every time the last wave looks down on the new wave and
regards them as unwelcome 'damned foreigners", specially if they are
physically different, like Japanese, Indians, Chinese and so on.
The USA is not used to being attacked: the last time, Pearl Harbour,
caused hysteria and the internment of Japanese Americans, even those
native-born (the irony was that the native born men were still drafted into
the military: how's that for hypocrisy?): this time people are even less
prepared, so who knows what will happen? So far it has stopped at threats
phoned in, but somewhere, sometime, some swarthy man with a beard (Oh my,
I've got quite a tan, and a foreign accent too...), worse still a turban,
will walk by a group of assholes and get punched out, and the USA will be
introduced to the nasty British skinhead pastime of "Paki-bashing".
Nuncio
> That really is too big a question to even think of discussing in a forum
>like this.
Good point.
I really didn't intend to get drawn into a discussion about all this in
a forum like ATX. Just express my sadness and fears, and leave it at that.
So I'll bow out of any further debate.
Nunc
Violet
I feel the same way. It's too emotional a subject and time and other than
agreeing with the sadness and fears that you expressed, I'm going to bow out
also, without any further debate. I feel myself being drawn in with
different posts and I know I'm just going to get myself into trouble, so,
Nuncio ..... I am bowing out on this subject too.....
.... Vi
Brithnoth
>
>
> Now I'm wondering how many of the Airlines are going to survive this
> financial burden... not just the 2 days, so far, of no commerce or
> incoming revenue, but the additional strain, both financially and
> physically of implementing all the new 'requirements' for security
> when most of the airlines were already on shaky financial territory?
> Add to it the backlash of how many people are going to be afraid to
> 'fly' after *this* blow!?!?!? There might not be any airlines to
> inspect your luggage.
Such a degree of security is quite feasible, it is called a European
airport. We support budget airlines with fares at over 10 miles per
dollar. A difficulty would be that building design is a great part of
the security labyrinth while a US airport may not have that (my US
airport experience is limited to Pittsburgh). This may swing the
balance of travel to rail where medium distances (up to 300/400 miles)
are travelled, but that isn't much of the US traffic I think.
regards
B
Brithnoth
>
> Brithnoth wrote:
> >
> >
> > To which I would add that for the individual returning to normality is
> > our way of saying we are not beaten.
> >
> > Having been 'missed' by the IRA bomb in Bishopsgate London (by exactly a
> > week, to the minute) walking back along a few weeks later was emotional
> > but *I was there again*.
> >
> > thoughts to all
> > B
>
> Oh, wow! That was a close call. Glad you're okay.
>
> I think you and quite a few others could give us quite a bit of
> information on how to live with terrorism. God knows our innocence on
> the subject is at an end. (We've all been aware of it, it just hasn't
> touched most of us in quite this way.)
>
> Rose
In many ways we take a fatalistic approach. Yes the litter bins have
gone from public buildings, station left luggage is rare. You watch
out for left bags and don't go looking in them. We even see the odd
armed police officer about. But then 'our' terrorists behave
differently so the real risk is lower.
Where they are after publicity then they want a low body count and lots
of TV footage so as not to frighten off their benefactors and
apologists. Warnings of a sort are given most of the time. The death
toll from Bishopsgate, Baltic Exchange and the two Canary Wharf bombs
(bit like WTC) in London was I think about 10. Of course all those
deaths are
the governments fault for not understanding the warning (pah b@##@[*s it
is).
You probably don't get to hear about the day in day out stuff in NI at
the time
to the same degree.
To end on a brighter note, they have got the money together to rebuild
the church destroyed in Bishopsgate, I read it while at that bus stop
again the other week.
regards
B
Brithnoth
>
>
> What you have written, though, Aeth, calls to mind another group of men,
> a dozen in all, that changed the course of England and Ireland. His
> name was Michael Collins and he engineered, though his own form of
> terrorism, the release of most of Ireland from England's grasp. But
> unlike Osama Bin Ladin and any other fanatical group, he took care to
> try to avoid innocent people being caught in the middle. As I recall,
> it didn't always work out that way, but he tried.
>
> This group, however... Osama Bin Ladin is not a Michael Collins, that's
> for sure. He doesn't care who gets killed. Just so his own ends are
> achieved.
>
> Rose
Might I remind you that the 3000 or so people killed by Collins and his
successors (each generation less 'careful') are just as dead as those in
New York, Washington and PA.
regards
B
S L Green
<æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote:
>S L Green wrote in message ...
>>
[snipped]
>>When they are dragged out of their beds at night and shuttled to
>>security areas because Martial Law has been implemented? And what
>>will they have to say about it when the government starts herding
>>certain 'types' of people into Detainment Camps, like they did the
>>recently nationalized people from Japan, just after the bombing of
>>Pearl Harbor? Will they consider *those* people to not have any
>>Rights, since they haven't been citizens for as long as they have?
>
> It seems to me that most Americans would be quite happy to see Arabs or
>even all Muslims, put under some restraint, if not "sent back where they
>came from". The degree of hatred against a group of some of the most
>law-abiding people you could meet is astounding (I may be biased here: I
>knew a lot of Moslems back in England, and after visiting Turkey, a country
>with a secular government for almost 100 yeears, but abot 99% Moslem, I
>would probably be one if I belonged to any formal religion). Even the word
>"terrorist" seems in the past few years to have been replaced by eithe
>"Moslem terrorist" or "Arab terrorist".
I used to try and blame it on some genetic carryover of 'territorial
protection' instinct. Then I tried to explain it away as the
ignorance of the parents visited on the children. Now I simply can't
find any excuse for those who would destroy the whole barrel just to
get rid of the a few rotten apples... and *all* countries/governments
have their own share of 'rotten apples'. Even America.
>>Will they consider it an "Act of National Defense"? Or does
>>'citizenship' mean *all* citizens, regardless of the longevity of
>>their 'commitment'? Is Democracy only for those of us whose parents
>>and grandparents and great-great-grandparents were already citizens?
>
> Not in the USA. Every generation seems to bring a new set of ethnic
>immigrants, and every time the last wave looks down on the new wave and
>regards them as unwelcome 'damned foreigners", specially if they are
>physically different, like Japanese, Indians, Chinese and so on.
>
> The USA is not used to being attacked: the last time, Pearl Harbour,
>caused hysteria and the internment of Japanese Americans, even those
>native-born (the irony was that the native born men were still drafted into
>the military: how's that for hypocrisy?):
Oh, Heavens! How could I forget! Probably because I was too
embarrassed to think this government could be so arrogant as to
'select' who can be trusted and who can't, simply based on their skin.
What our elected officials could do in their behind closed door
sessions that would bolster my confidence in their abilities as
leaders of the Free World, is to devise a full scaled plan for revival
and implementation of the good old fashioned concept of Free
Enterprise and let what used to be known as American Ingenuity deal
with all of this... without ever firing a shot!
Technology has already invented 'electronic sniffers' that can detect
chemical compounds on luggage and laptop computers... let American
Ingenuity get its lethargic derriere in gear and out smart the
terrorists by implementing its own form of 'security' through improved
technology and make the American airline terminals the safest on the
globe ... after all, the airlines have a vested interest in protecting
their own property. How could any citizen object to being scanned for
'safety'? As long as that technology does not require implantation of
a Tracking Chip into my physical body, I'd be relieved to know that
all the other people going through the scanner had just been deemed,
"Safe for Transport".<g>
>...this time people are even less
>prepared, so who knows what will happen? So far it has stopped at threats
>phoned in, but somewhere, sometime, some swarthy man with a beard (Oh my,
>I've got quite a tan, and a foreign accent too...), worse still a turban,
>will walk by a group of assholes and get punched out, and the USA will be
>introduced to the nasty British skinhead pastime of "Paki-bashing".
That has already started happening, too. It just makes me ache to
think that any people would resort to relieving their tension by
pounding on the first available target.
But, it isn't just America that is guilty of such behavior... even the
UK isn't the only other guilty party.
I can understand their being appalled... I remember when Iran took
America hostage I was *outraged*! But, this go around of 'getting the
point across to America' is far past that effect... this time I don't
dare get outraged... or even mad. Anger isn't going to hit the
instant replay button and bring all those passengers back to life. If
the people want to 'govern themselves', then let them do it... through
the Free Enterprise system of American Ingenuity and not with more
blood shed.
S L Green
Well, fortunately, our airlines are now opened, at least to a limited
extent... but when you say, 'We support budget airlines with fares at
over 10 miles per dollar.', are they also funded by government
subsidy?
I agree that building design is essential to security, and it seems
America has had a love affair with 'interesting architecture' for too
long... I will be interested in seeing what 'new' air port designs we
have in the future.
We do still have some railroad sevices, but when the government
deregulated it, it went Bankrupt and has never been the same, since.
I was lucky enough to get to ride the train before then, as a kid, and
thoroughly enjoyed it. Maybe it will return.
Ray Radlein
>
> Ruby wrote:
> >
> > Rose says...
> > >
> > >I guess many Americans would like to believe that we're
> > >"untouchable" but, as was proved Tuesday, that is not the case.
> > >
> > That's OK, because they're about to be reminded that America can
> > touch back.
> >
> Yeah, I believe you're right. I just want us to be "touching" the
> right people back.
Revenge is a dish best served to the correct table in the restaurant.
- Ray R.
--
*********************************************************************
"Well, before my sword can pass all the way through your neck, it has
to pass *half way* through your neck. But before it can do *that*, it
has to first pass *one-fourth* of the way through your neck. And
before it can do *that*...." - Zeno, Warrior Princess
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
*********************************************************************
Amiral
Well, I agree with you, Aeth.
I even heard, don't remember who exactly, probably Ashcroft,
say that there would be retaliation against the country hosting the
terrorists, and that the US would strike with deadly force, no matter
if there were civilians around, which he called "colateral damage".
Hell, those 5000 who just died are considered colateral damage
by the terrorists (smashing the WTC was the goal, killing civilians
was a consequence).
Of course, I forget the USA is always on the good side of the
fence. The one where it's acceptable to train and equip guys like
Saddam and Bin Laden to terrorize your enemies, but not acceptable to
have them do the same to you.
Amiral
Florian Blaschke
"Amiral" <ami...@nospam.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:io83qt4ibg6i37v4i...@4ax.com...
>
> Well, I agree with you, Aeth.
>
> I even heard, don't remember who exactly, probably Ashcroft,
> say that there would be retaliation against the country hosting the
> terrorists, and that the US would strike with deadly force, no matter
> if there were civilians around, which he called "colateral damage".
>
> Hell, those 5000 who just died are considered colateral damage
> by the terrorists (smashing the WTC was the goal, killing civilians
> was a consequence).
>
> Of course, I forget the USA is always on the good side of the
> fence. The one where it's acceptable to train and equip guys like
> Saddam and Bin Laden to terrorize your enemies, but not acceptable to
> have them do the same to you.
I speak now under the assumption that Ibn Ladin is indeed directly
responsible, and the Taliban host and protect him.
So you propose to convince terrorists and dictators with love, to hold the
other cheek to them? Sorry, it won't work like that. We're dealing with
fanatics, they don't think humanistically like we do, we're obviously demons
to them -- doing nothing will make us appear weak and only provoke them, or
rather, it will even be interpreted as an act of demonic seduction.
Remember history: Tolerance against fascist Germany and Japan only made
them stronger. We can't renounce military action. We only need to stay
cool. We have to make clear to dictators that pursuing their plans will
cause them more harm than renouncing them.
The point is, American warfare is not like European warfare, it's
differentiated, minimalist warfare. Vengeance must not be our impulse,
prevention must, so we're not talking about committing genocide, which would
be *of course* a terrible mistake. But no-one with any common sense left is
really considering killing the entire Afghan population, the Taliban leaders
are the enemies, not the peasants. While the analogy of "surgical attacks"
may sound euphemistic, it is really the best available: surgical invasions
are bloody and something no-one really wants to do, but still they are
inevitable. Amiral, your attitude is honorable and important, and a very
good sign for our culture, but in this case it is dangerous. Gabby's
throwing away her fighting staff in "The Way" was a mistake whose backlash
showed up in IOM.
This attack was NOT directed against the American behavior, it cannot in any
way be interpreted and excused as a perverted a form of complaint [1] -- it
was a direct attack against freedom itself. We need to be determinated, we
need to bond together, and we must prevent the terrorists from reaching
their goals, which is us becoming exactly like them, by losing our minds, by
getting controlled by emotions alone. Which would be the case both if we 1)
indiscriminately slaughtered everything that looks remote Arabic (witch
hunt) or 2) underestimate the danger and just let our enemies pursue their
evil plans (naivity, misunderstanding of tyrants, Chamberlaine syndrome).
We need to take action, we need to respond in order to protect freedom. Wer
have to be self-assured and show it to anyone.
We have gone through this kind of situation before, and succeded, so let's
not panic.
[1] Do you really think the US bully the world? It's the other way round!
*Of course* jealousy is an important factor. But there are reasons why the
US are on top. They are the best appropriate power for the job of the
"world police" which the world *needs* as long as there is no other
(international, elected, official)institution with enough power for the job.
Check out Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair's famous address.
--
Florian
GGGHD
Rose
LOL!! You sound like me. :-) I will, hopefully, be going on vacation
the week of October 20th to Colonial Williamsburg. My husband and I are
just waiting to see what's going to happen. In the meantime, I'm still
getting things ready just in case we get to go.
Rose
Rose
Weren't most of those deaths caused by his successors and not by any
orders that Collins himself issued? At least, that's what I always
thought.
Rose
Rose
>
> Technology has already invented 'electronic sniffers' that can detect
> chemical compounds on luggage and laptop computers... let American
> Ingenuity get its lethargic derriere in gear and out smart the
> terrorists by implementing its own form of 'security' through improved
> technology and make the American airline terminals the safest on the
> globe ... after all, the airlines have a vested interest in protecting
> their own property. How could any citizen object to being scanned for
> 'safety'? As long as that technology does not require implantation of
> a Tracking Chip into my physical body, I'd be relieved to know that
> all the other people going through the scanner had just been deemed,
> "Safe for Transport".<g>
>
charlie" conversations elsewhere in this thread.
Rose
Rose
Cowards. :-)
But I understand. Really I do.
Rose
Rose
>
> Rose wrote:
> >
> > Ruby wrote:
> > >
> > > Rose says...
> > > >
> > > >I guess many Americans would like to believe that we're
> > > >"untouchable" but, as was proved Tuesday, that is not the case.
> > > >
> > > That's OK, because they're about to be reminded that America can
> > > touch back.
> > >
> > Yeah, I believe you're right. I just want us to be "touching" the
> > right people back.
>
> Revenge is a dish best served to the correct table in the restaurant.
>
Rose
Rose
Glad to hear that about the church. And, you're right, it does sound
like a different kind of terrorism. If it is Bin Laden behind it, he
wants a high body count. And that does make him far more dangerous than
the IRA.
Rose
Andrew Crossett
<ROCx...@t-online.de> wrote:
[...]
This is a historic day -- Florian and I agree 100%...
S L Green
Oh. I see.
What I don't want to see is "Checkpoint Charlies" set up at all the
entrances to the Interstates... all parking lots... groceries stores,
etc... I don't think the average American citizen would have that much
patience, for any length of time.
We are *very* lucking the U.S. that we have only had such things as
Driver's Licenses and possibly our Social Security cards as 'required'
forms of Identification, and only then if we are applying for a loan
or writing a check to pay for something<g>... I shudder at the thought
of all our tourism, including Federal Bldgs (i.e., Capital Building
and Pentagon) being placed behind huge chain link fences topped with
barbed wire and 'electronic sniffers' in place to funnel all people
through. Prior to this, our government offices have been literally
*open* to each citizen as part of our rights to have 'access' to our
elected officials. But, these are some of the things that are very
likely to change from now on...
We may as well get ourselves braced as "American Citizens" that from
here on out our way of life is going to be forever changed.
I've often wondered what if we were to be in the middle of a full
scale 'homeland' involved war... how would the rest of the American
citizens react when all normal everyday existence was now in the hands
of military check points... it is a terrible mental picture for me to
think of American daily life being like the photos and news reels of
WWII in Europe... complete with curfews and lights out times.
Sylvia
RockScorpion
"Brithnoth" <Brit...@genLUNCHEONMEATBANNEDsheet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BA13BB9...@genLUNCHEONMEATBANNEDsheet.co.uk...
I have no doudt whatsoever that what he did was right. He helped free Eire
from tyranny.
But his so-called successors, and their opponents (equally heinous), are no
different in my mind to those who perpetrated the WTC and Washington
atrocities.
Noble causes and most religions have eventually been used by those who seek
only self agrandisement and power over others.
Given the time, the original ideals are twisted and warped to meet their
misbegotten ends.
Religions and their faithful are not the cause of these atrocities, for
those who commit them do so for their own selfish earthly greed for power.
I've said before, I am not a church-going catholic, but still regard myself
as a halfway decent christian. and so condemn the acts of both so-called
"catholics" and "protestants", their motivation, as that of any who plan and
carry out these murders, is power, "my way or else", "God is on my side"...
b*ll**ks.
Those of you in the UK may remember the deaths of three IRA terrorists on
the Rock.
A Car full of expolives used by them was discovered in Spain.
Another car, the one they had just parked to hold the space for the bomb
car, was placed where the soldiers assembled before marching down main
street for the annual ceremonial hand-over of the Governnor's residence
guard to another regiment.
It was directly infront of a secondary education school's playground,
(children aged 10 to 14}. The band assembles there at approx, 10am, when
there would have been around 200-300 children playing. It would have wiped
out all the children in my family. The school is also predominantly
catholic.
murder, is murder, is murder.
Where ever it happens, NY, NI, Palestine, Israel, Japan (and just about
every nation in the world). It is an evil that must be fought by all of us,
we must not be cowered into helplessness. Let them see that their actions do
not weaken us, saddened yes, grief-stricken for the innocent lives lost yes,
Justice +yes+.
Revenge, NEVER.
It is then that +we+ become the terrorists to millions of innocents.
Joe
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be known as the children of
God"
"Gabrielle, you really are a beautiful soul".
-Season 5 Ep1 "Fallen Angel"
chibiangi
Florian Blaschke <ROCx...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9nslsp$pm8$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
Hell must have just frozen over because I agree 100% with Florian on this
one.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FEB MBC Sushi!Girlie
Home: http://www.geocities.com/chibiangi
Club: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/shoujoanimetraders
Just look at her face the next morning. Was that the expression of a well
fucked woman?
I think not. -Alan
"My career lets me travel to all kinds of great overseas places, like
Canada."
-Britney Spears
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rose
I don't think it'll come to that. I think we'll take care of this
before then. But it may happen for a short time. I also think that
we'll see technological improvements that may do that kind of thing
without impeding us. Kind of like the monitor thingies that you pass
through now in some of the stores.
As for fences around things, I don't look much for that. We'll see
increased security around some things - like nuclear reactors - but I
doubt we'll see a whole lot at the shopping malls, etc.
I, too, have thought about the mental pictures you have created. It is
indeed a terrible thought. But I don't think it would last for long
around here in the US. Yet we have dealt with this kind of thing in the
past. We've done it before, we can do it again. We can't let these
bastards win. We have to go on. If we don't, the bastards have won.
Hang in there. We'll keep our freedoms in the long run. I refuse to
let it be otherwise.
Rose
S L Green
>S L Green wrote:
>> What I don't want to see is "Checkpoint Charlies" set up at all the
>> entrances to the Interstates... all parking lots... groceries stores,
[snipped]
>> of military check points... it is a terrible mental picture for me to
>> think of American daily life being like the photos and news reels of
>> WWII in Europe... complete with curfews and lights out times.
>
>I don't think it'll come to that. I think we'll take care of this
>before then. But it may happen for a short time. I also think that
[snipped]
>I, too, have thought about the mental pictures you have created. It is
>indeed a terrible thought. But I don't think it would last for long
>around here in the US. Yet we have dealt with this kind of thing in the
>past. We've done it before, we can do it again. We can't let these
>bastards win. We have to go on. If we don't, the bastards have won.
>
>Hang in there. We'll keep our freedoms in the long run. I refuse to
>let it be otherwise.
<smiling> Now, *that* is the kind of comment I like to 'hear' coming
from the mouths (so to speak) of my fellow Americans... let's keep our
freedoms.
Sylvia
Rose
Glad we agree. :-)
Interesting. Bush has declared a national emergency. Now our patience
will be tested as we go through these "checkpoint charlies."
Rose
Aethelrede
>On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:44:10 GMT, "Aethelrede"
>
>
> I even heard, don't remember who exactly, probably Ashcroft,
>say that there would be retaliation against the country hosting the
>terrorists, and that the US would strike with deadly force, no matter
>if there were civilians around, which he called "colateral damage".
>
> Hell, those 5000 who just died are considered colateral damage
>by the terrorists (smashing the WTC was the goal, killing civilians
>was a consequence).
I rather think that the idea was to do as much damage to the WTC ant to
kill as many people as possible while doing so. The total destruction of
the complex was a plus.
But the reaction of everyone in the country was probably far more than
any of the planners of the attack imagined (remember, they're from countries
where bombs, landmines, shootings and civil war have been common for
decades). Nigh on 100% of the serious US TV and radio station have devoted
themselves ever since the first atttack by telling the world how much
America is hurt, shocked, unhappy and totally changed. And showing the
damage and people weeping over and over.
They have the government ramming through special powers for the
president to use against terrorists.
They've seen malicious pranks causing instant reaction by security
forces and know that for the indefinite future all they have to do is lift
up a phone anywhere in the world, call a TV or police station in the USA,
announce they've placed a bomb somewhere and know that hundreds, even
thousands, of Americans will be running around going nuts for the next hour
or two evacuating buildings and searching them and wasting time and money.
And they've put a major airline out of business and made it certain
that air travel will become even more expensive, uncomfortable and time
wasting than it was on Sept 10th, with security regulations that are so
stupid that I thought of around 5 ways to still hijack a plane, just while
driving home.
And what makes anyone think that planes will be involved in the next
attack or the one after that? If I was a terrorist I'd be thinking about a
few dozen bombs in trashcans or dark corners of the NY, DC or SF subway
system, or car bombs in mall parking lots between Dec 20th and 24th, or any
of a dozen things that people everywhere else in the world have been
experiencing for years. And I don't even want to think what some encysted
Giardia lamblia (or worse) in a reservoir could to to the population: we'd
all be drinking water tasting like Clorox within weeks The USA has no
experience and is unprepared. The authorities will react to each attack,
impose restrictions, and then be caught flat-footed by the next, and the
next.
> Of course, I forget the USA is always on the good side of the
>fence. The one where it's acceptable to train and equip guys like
>Saddam and Bin Laden to terrorize your enemies, but not acceptable to
>have them do the same to you.
And people say I'm cynical!
But I'm afraid you're right. There's very much a "What we do to you is
right, but it's not fair if you hit back" attitude: look at all those South
Americans trained by US military personnel back in the 70s and 80s who
killed goodness know how many of their own people in death squads and so on.
Aethelrede
Rose wrote in message <3BA2063D...@my-deja.com>...
And curing cancer, and the common cold, and finding a source of energy
so cheap it will never have to be metered...
But what worries me is that we've heard this before.
The president of the USA declared war on poverty. Congress has voted
huge sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. Nearly 40 years
later the USA has more poverty.
The president of the USA declared war on drugs. Congress has voted huge
sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. 20 years or so later,
drugs are cheaper and more abundant.
Now the president of the USA has declared war on terrorism. Congress
has voted a truly enormous sum of money for it in just one day. And 20
years later... ?
S L Green
<æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote:
[snipped]
>Ray Radlein wrote:
>>> Revenge is a dish best served to the correct table in the restaurant.
>>>
>>I'm not out for revenge. Just for ending terrorism world-wide.
>
> And curing cancer, and the common cold, and finding a source of energy
>so cheap it will never have to be metered...
> But what worries me is that we've heard this before.
> The president of the USA declared war on poverty. Congress has voted
>huge sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. Nearly 40 years
>later the USA has more poverty.
> The president of the USA declared war on drugs. Congress has voted huge
>sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. 20 years or so later,
>drugs are cheaper and more abundant.
> Now the president of the USA has declared war on terrorism. Congress
>has voted a truly enormous sum of money for it in just one day. And 20
>years later... ?
CMIIW, but I do believe that the difference in using the term 'war',
this time, is that they didn't just wipe out the World Trade Center...
they took out our center of Military Defense. Which shifted it from a
civil attack to a military assault.
Then add to it all the citizens from *other* countries who were in the
World Trade Center, well, it wasn't even really a matter of 'civil
attack' but became embroiled in endangering the lives of 'visiting
citizens' from other countries, which surely there is some legalese
involved that would shift the focus from internal poverty and drug
usage to *World Terrorism on our Door Step*.
Sylvia
S L Green
>S L Green wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:28:09 GMT, Rose <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[snipped]
>> >Hang in there. We'll keep our freedoms in the long run. I refuse to
>> >let it be otherwise.
>>
>> <smiling> Now, *that* is the kind of comment I like to 'hear' coming
>> from the mouths (so to speak) of my fellow Americans... let's keep our
>> freedoms.
>>
>> Sylvia
>
>Glad we agree. :-)
<smiling>
>Interesting. Bush has declared a national emergency. Now our patience
>will be tested as we go through these "checkpoint charlies."
LOL! Yeah, but I feel a lot better that it has been downgraded to
National Emergency from Declaration of War.<g>
Aethelrede
>On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:27:15 GMT, "Aethelrede"
><æthel...@worldnot.att.net> wrote:
>
>[snipped]
>>Ray Radlein wrote:
>>>> Revenge is a dish best served to the correct table in the restaurant.
>>>>
>>>I'm not out for revenge. Just for ending terrorism world-wide.
>>
>> And curing cancer, and the common cold, and finding a source of energy
>>so cheap it will never have to be metered...
>> But what worries me is that we've heard this before.
>> The president of the USA declared war on poverty. Congress has voted
>>huge sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. Nearly 40 years
>>later the USA has more poverty.
>> The president of the USA declared war on drugs. Congress has voted
huge
>>sums of money for it over the years. It was spent. 20 years or so later,
>>drugs are cheaper and more abundant.
>> Now the president of the USA has declared war on terrorism. Congress
>>has voted a truly enormous sum of money for it in just one day. And 20
>>years later... ?
>
>CMIIW, but I do believe that the difference in using the term 'war',
>this time, is that they didn't just wipe out the World Trade Center...
>they took out our center of Military Defense. Which shifted it from a
>civil attack to a military assault.
I'm sorry that I have to disagree with you again(1), but every terrorist
attack is simply another terrorist attack.
The mere fact that the pentagon was unprepared for a serious assault is
irrelevant. If the USA was really prepared for attacks, that plane would
have been blown out of the sky the second it even appeared to be heading for
its target. The innocent passengers and crew would have died a minute or so
sooner, but the pentagon and the entire US military system would look a
whole lot better and the 100 or so admitted casualties, (plus the rest that
were in the huge area that was destroyed who are not officially acknowledged
to have existed) would still be alive.
It's Pearl Harbour all over again: the USA relaxing at peace, and
"them" working on a war basis.
Guess which one won this time?
And which one will win the next time?
The entire US military against a few hundred fanatics?
I'll bet on the fanatics. They have no uniforms, no bases, no military
organisation. They do their thing, and either die or go on to the next
target.
It's sad but true, but terrorists have the advantage these days.
Even I could be one. I'm not, but I can imagine all sorts of really
evil things I could do to cause fear and panic anywhere, and can even think
of ways to take over an aircraft despite these new security rules which
guarantee that everyone but me and the guys (if I had guys) are totally
unarmed. How about that for encouragement? But "they" won't go for the
planes next time: they've screwed up the US commercial airlines enough.
Next time: what? Railways? Subway systems? Metro Buses? School
buses?
(1) but what the hey? It certainly isn't the first time. But I am honestly
trying to keep up the old politeness here that atx used to have. It's good
to see you back, BTW.
And [OT], how's it going by you?
Ray Radlein
Metaphor is a dish best served with a Coke and a simile.
Ray Radlein
>
> S L Green wrote:
> >
> >'war', this time, is that they didn't just wipe out the World
> >Trade Center... they took out our center of Military Defense.
> >Which shifted it from a civil attack to a military assault.
>
> I'm sorry that I have to disagree with you again(1), but every
> terrorist attack is simply another terrorist attack.
There is a certain tautological elegance to this statement, but not all
acts described as "terrorist" are created equal.
If a terrorist attack is directed against an exclusively military
target, for instance (such as the Marine barracks, or the USS Cole),
then it is, to some extent, a military attack. As much as I hated those
incidents, I felt slightly less awful about them than I did about, say,
the 1993 WTC bombing. Obviously, flooding a subway with Sarin, for
instance, is clearly not a *military* assault.
Oh, and an attack against the military which is designed to
indiscriminately kill civilians as well doesn't really count in the
"military" column: so bombing a German disco near an Air Force base
doesn't make the cut; and neither does crashing an airliner full of
civilians into a military headquarters building.
The other line of distinction is the connection between an action and
its desired outcome: If you attack the military of nation X in order to
secure a military victory over that nation or its allies, then you are
making a military assault. If you attack their military in order to
make some nebulous point, then you are engaging in a terrorist act.
Obviously, by any possible criteria, the events of 11 September were
terrorist acts.
Amiral
<ROCx...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>"Amiral" <ami...@nospam.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:io83qt4ibg6i37v4i...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Well, I agree with you, Aeth.
>>
>> I even heard, don't remember who exactly, probably Ashcroft,
>> say that there would be retaliation against the country hosting the
>> terrorists, and that the US would strike with deadly force, no matter
>> if there were civilians around, which he called "colateral damage".
>>
>> Hell, those 5000 who just died are considered colateral damage
>> by the terrorists (smashing the WTC was the goal, killing civilians
>> was a consequence).
>>
>> Of course, I forget the USA is always on the good side of the
>> fence. The one where it's acceptable to train and equip guys like
>> Saddam and Bin Laden to terrorize your enemies, but not acceptable to
>> have them do the same to you.
>
>I speak now under the assumption that Ibn Ladin is indeed directly
>responsible, and the Taliban host and protect him.
>
>So you propose to convince terrorists and dictators with love, to hold the
>other cheek to them? Sorry, it won't work like that. We're dealing with
I'm not suggesting that the US show the other cheek. I have no
problem with a nice, clean and precise operation against the
terrorists. What I am afraid of, is the blind fury of vengeance that
can lead the US government to hasty conclusions and radical actions
they may regret in the future. Like bombing whole cities to be sure
they get the right guys.
>fanatics, they don't think humanistically like we do, we're obviously demons
>to them -- doing nothing will make us appear weak and only provoke them, or
>rather, it will even be interpreted as an act of demonic seduction.
>Remember history: Tolerance against fascist Germany and Japan only made
>them stronger. We can't renounce military action. We only need to stay
>cool. We have to make clear to dictators that pursuing their plans will
>cause them more harm than renouncing them.
I agree with you. But still, I think the US should take its
time and think a lot about the implications of their plans, whatever
they are or will be.
>The point is, American warfare is not like European warfare, it's
>differentiated, minimalist warfare. Vengeance must not be our impulse,
>prevention must, so we're not talking about committing genocide, which would
>be *of course* a terrible mistake. But no-one with any common sense left is
>really considering killing the entire Afghan population, the Taliban leaders
>are the enemies, not the peasants. While the analogy of "surgical attacks"
>may sound euphemistic, it is really the best available: surgical invasions
>are bloody and something no-one really wants to do, but still they are
I follow you.
>inevitable. Amiral, your attitude is honorable and important, and a very
>good sign for our culture, but in this case it is dangerous. Gabby's
>throwing away her fighting staff in "The Way" was a mistake whose backlash
>showed up in IOM.
>
>This attack was NOT directed against the American behavior, it cannot in any
>way be interpreted and excused as a perverted a form of complaint [1] -- it
I don't follow you. American behavior, in my opinion, is one
of the factors.But I sure as hell can't *affirm* anything as to the
true motives of these guys, since we're not entirely sure who they
are, exactly.
>was a direct attack against freedom itself. We need to be determinated, we
>need to bond together, and we must prevent the terrorists from reaching
>their goals, which is us becoming exactly like them, by losing our minds, by
>getting controlled by emotions alone. Which would be the case both if we 1)
>indiscriminately slaughtered everything that looks remote Arabic (witch
>hunt) or 2) underestimate the danger and just let our enemies pursue their
>evil plans (naivity, misunderstanding of tyrants, Chamberlaine syndrome).
>We need to take action, we need to respond in order to protect freedom. Wer
>have to be self-assured and show it to anyone.
>
>We have gone through this kind of situation before, and succeded, so let's
>not panic.
>
>[1] Do you really think the US bully the world? It's the other way round!
Woa. We seem to disagree, here. Big time. Yes, I see the US as
a world bully. I have a friend who worked indirectly for the CIA,
going in many little countries with "catalogs" of stuff (including
missiles). Mysteriously, there was always a conflict errupting a few
days after my friend's visits. My friend's bosses used to work with
Oliver North. And let me tell you, they have a lot of anecdotes to
tell. You'd be surprised at how the US's tentacles can manipulate even
the most remote of nations.
>*Of course* jealousy is an important factor. But there are reasons why the
>US are on top. They are the best appropriate power for the job of the
>"world police" which the world *needs* as long as there is no other
>(international, elected, official)institution with enough power for the job.
>
>Check out Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair's famous address.
I did and it makes me cringe. Sorry to disagree :-)
Amiral
Florian Blaschke
"Andrew Crossett" <a...@spectra.net> schrieb...
>
> This is a historic day -- Florian and I agree 100%...
Sorry I have to disappoint you, but I'm not really that wise -- my points
were all stolen from a German friend's mails. Since they weren't written in
English, I couldn't simply forward them. Bummer. They belong to the most
sensible things I've read since long time.
Seems Germans are the ones most convinced by the "American spirit", the most
loyal and patriotic Americans. ;-)
--
Florian
GGGHD
Florian Blaschke
"Amiral" <ami...@nospam.net> schrieb...
> "Florian Blaschke" <ROCx...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> I agree with you. But still, I think the US should take its
> time and think a lot about the implications of their plans, whatever
> they are or will be.
That's exactly what I advocated to do -- to stay cool and not to overhaste.
You're talking about something the arms industry is involved in, a cynical
business I absolutely despise. BUT there is not only the US industry, there
is the German arms industry as well, who are no doubt hidden behind such
actions too, it is an international business thathas NOTHING to do with the
USA as a nation. The nation is the entirety of the people and their
government, not a pernicious branch of industry alone. What those cynics do
is NOT what the US do.
So perhaps the terrorists were using American arms, but perhaps they were
using German arms too? Or American knives?
Arms are not the real problem. Attitudes are the problem.
Frankly, anti-Americanism is too cheap to me. It's something like a reflex,
I think.
> >*Of course* jealousy is an important factor. But there are reasons why
the
> >US are on top. They are the best appropriate power for the job of the
> >"world police" which the world *needs* as long as there is no other
> >(international, elected, official)institution with enough power for the
job.
> >
> >Check out Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair's famous address.
>
> I did and it makes me cringe. Sorry to disagree :-)
Well, then let's disagree. Without throwing bombs. :-)
--
Florian
GGGHD
Christy Sadergoske
"Marcus Seeck" <mse...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9nldug$obm$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Where is Xena when you need her?
>
> I cannot believe how anyone can do something like that, much less
> devote time and energy to plan it. (and of course, the bastard who did
> plan it is still alive somewhere).
>
> If Bush is going to hunt him down and nuke him, he'll have my
> blessing. Love is the way, and peace is the way, but in the faced of
> this madness, extreme measures seem quite appropriate.
Sometimes, when push comes to shove, the only choice is to shove back.
Or something like that.
Those bastards have no idea what they started. But they'll learn. Quickly.
One person said that America is a family. Quarrelsome and, sometimes,
dysfunctional. But a family nonetheless. And when anyone hurts one part of
our family, we all unite to protect the rest and avenge those lost. And
we're not alone. We have cousins in Europe and Asia that will not stand for
these cowardly attacks, either.
Be afraid, Monsters, be very afraid.
--Christy
Whose tears will never be abated.
Christy Sadergoske
"Rose" <ro...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B9F6045...@my-deja.com...
> pointnj022 wrote:
> >
> > Are you kidding me "where is Xena", what about the thousands of
americans that
> > perished today? How can you be so shallow and wrapped up in a
television
> > show... get a life and get a clue, there are real people who need real
help....
> > WAKE UP!
> > Concerned American
>
> I know Marcus well enough to know that he is a concerned person. He
> meant nothing bad by it. If anything, it was wishful thinking as we all
> might wish for a Superman or a Batman or a Xena to deal with problems
> that we really don't want to. It's human nature not to want to deal
> with something of this magnitude.
It is human nature. Its not so much not wanting to deal with the matter.
Its an issue of self-protection. Sometimes, something is so terrible that
the only way to comprehend it, the only way to deal IS to escape for even
just a moment.
I myself asked "where's Xena when we need her?" Its not that I didn't
realize this was real, vs. a fictional TV show. It was that I felt helpless
and the only way I could express that was to wish for a modern day Xena to
rise and save us. But then I realize that many, many modern day Xenas and
Gabrielles have risen and will continue to do so. The modern day Gabrielles
are coordinating the rescue efforts, organizing the blood drives, counseling
the victims and their families, etc. The modern day Xenas are following
leads, arresting suspects, and planning our response. Maybe no one will don
the old leathers and wield a chakrum, but we do have real life heros.
--Christy
Visit http://www.redcross.org,
http://www.christianity.com/salvationarmyusa/, and/or
http://relief.yahoo.com/unitedway/index.cfm to see how you can help.
Christy Sadergoske
> > > Molly wrote:
> >
> > > > I pray that people can keep their sanity and that there will not be
> > > > random attacks against Arabs all over the country. We need sanity
to
> > > > counteract this insanity; we need love to counteract this hate. We
> > > > need courage in the face of this terror.
> > > >
> > > True words, Molly. There are quite a few very good Middle Easterners
> > > here at the university. I, too, pray that people keep thier heads
> > > together and do not take this out on just anybody.
> > >
> > > Rose
> >
> > Agreed.
> > As it happened, I was actually in Arabic class (physically sitting in,
not
> > just enrolled in) when word of Oklahoma City came in. My instructor, an
> > Egyptian by birth, was close to tears. There was a pall over the entire
> > department, which was mainly staffed by native Arabs.
> > As I recall, everyone assumed that it just HAD to be the work of Arab
> > terrorists. An understandable assumption, to be sure, but in the end an
> > incorrect one.
> > Even if the WTC does turn out to be the work of a few radical Muslim
Arabs,
> > it would be as ridiculous to hold all the Muslims or Arabs of the world
> > responsible as it would be to hold all white people or Christians of the
> > world responsible for producing Timothy McVeigh.
> >
> > --Hanan
>
> I see they've issued warrants for the arrests of several people. Also,
> the White House and AF-1 were part of the targets, not the Pentagon.
Actually, the Pentagon was indeed a secondary target. When the idiot
hijacker missed the White House, he veered into the Pentagon.
The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was probably meant for the White
House. Thank god those passengers acted and crashed it into that field
instead. Real life heros DO exist.
Hanan
news:8s66qtkumlimnctjd...@4ax.com...
> I'm not suggesting that the US show the other cheek. I have no
> problem with a nice, clean and precise operation against the
> terrorists.
I'm afraid that particular breed of cat doesn't exist. Operations are rarely
precise or clean, and never nice. Despite what you may have seen on CNN.
What I am afraid of, is the blind fury of vengeance that can lead the US
government to hasty >conclusions and radical actions they may regret in the
future. Like bombing whole cities to be >sure they get the right guys.
This is hardly a hasty conclusion. The hijackers have left us everything
short of a trail of bread crumbs, to a man who has spent the last decade
shouting "Death to America" and carrying out terrorist attacks against US
targets (WTC 1, the USS Cole).
> But still, I think the US should take its time and think a lot about the
implications of their plans, whatever they are or will be.
It's been almost a week, and Congress has still not officially declared
war. In WWII, they declared war the next day. They are lining up support,
and considering options. Hardly hasty.
>> While the analogy of "surgical attacks"may sound euphemistic, it is
really the best available:
>> surgical invasions are bloody and something no-one really wants to do,
but still they are inevitable.
Just wanted continue the analogy a bit: Surgery is dangerous for a reason. A
great deal of heathy tissue gets destroyed or damaged in taking out the
malicious portion. I caution anyone who thinks that a "surgical strike" is
anything like the painless, non-invasive surgery seen on "Star Trek."
However, the alternative is allowing the malignancy or infection to spread
and to eventually kill the host.
BTW, the WTC attack is a textbook example of a "surgical strike". They hit
only the targets they intended, and took them out completely.
> I don't follow you. American behavior, in my opinion, is one of the
factors.
Which American behavior, exactly? The one where we pull into a little
African country no one's heard of and hand out food to the starving? Then,
when they kill 19 of our guys, instead of leveling the country, we just pull
out quietly?
Or is it the one where we send our guys to the Balkans to escort kids to
school, and rebuild bridges, roads and sewer systems? All while they stand
in constant danger of being shot or blown up by "rebels" with no ideology
other than "Let's kill all of the other guys, and also anyone who stands in
the way of our killing all of the other guys?
Maybe it's the one where we send billions in aid to every country hit by
war, earthquakes, monsoon or mudslide--while being left on our own to deal
with these events in our own country.
Or are you talking about about the "imposition" of American culture? I
always love that one--it gives me images of armed soldiers tramping through
foreign countries, leaving McDonalds and Disneyland in their wake. The fact
of the matter is, American culture spreads because people like it. 700
McDonald's in France are just a bit much to be supported only by tourist
trade; a great number of the individuals decrying American culture must be
eating there too. No one puts a gun to anyone's head and makes them watch
American films; people watch them because they want to.
Agreed, the US has made missteps aplenty. Vietnam and Iraq (post-war policy,
specifically) come to mind. And yes, the US supports Israel. And no, the
rest of the world doesn't like it. Is it a BAD thing that we support one of
the few representative governments in the Middle East? Hard to say.
Are we any worse than, say, France--who will make a deal with the devil if
necessary and would probably push her own grandmother under a bus for a
profit? (1) What if the Eiffel Tower had been blown up? Would anyone say
word one if the French went in and thrashed those responsible? Probably not.
(2)
>But I sure as hell can't *affirm* anything as to the true motives of these
guys, since we're not >entirely sure who they are, exactly.
He's a serial killer. A charismatic serial killer who gets others to do his
dirty work for him. Not too far removed from the likes of Charles Manson,
really.
> >[1] Do you really think the US bully the world? It's the other way
round!
Agreed. The US can't make a single move without the rest of the world
screaming foul. No matter what we do, a large vocal contingent is not going
to like it. We spend so much time trying to be all things to all people that
it's surprising anything ever gets done.
Right now, the world is all upset that we are building a missile shield.
Why? Who cares? We are still a sovereign nation, and if we want to build a
big old castle in the sky, that's our own business. If you don't like the
fact the we have it and you don't, go build your own.
Now if, say...IRAQ wanted to build a shield, everyone would rush to their
side and pronounce their sovereign right to self-defense. Sheesh.
>
> Woa. We seem to disagree, here. Big time. Yes, I see the US as
> a world bully. I have a friend who worked indirectly for the CIA,
> going in many little countries with "catalogs" of stuff (including
> missiles). Mysteriously, there was always a conflict errupting a few
> days after my friend's visits.
30% of the world is at conflict at any given time. Your buddy had a 1 in 3
shot. Since he was selling weapons, he was probably going to places that
were already unstable or in conflict (going where the ducks are.) It's not
surprising that hostilities broke out soon after.
> My friend's bosses used to work with
> Oliver North. And let me tell you, they have a lot of anecdotes to
> tell. You'd be surprised at how the US's tentacles can manipulate even
> the most remote of nations.
If they were telling you the stories, then they probably weren't true. Or,
they had only the most casual of relationships with Oliver North, and were
exaggerating their own participation for dramatic effect. People who are
actually involved in those types of ops don't talk about them, for any
number of reasons. In this case, fear of prosecution (both for talking, and
for being involved in an illegal enterprise) can be a determining factor.
Simple rule of thumb--the more stories someone tells you about his or her
"covert ops", the less likely it is that they ever got anywhere NEAR a black
op. Anyone who's ever been to a Ranger or SF bar knows THAT one.
Finally--the main target in this attack was the WORLD Trade Center. Citizens
of dozens of countries worked there, not just the US. Five hundred British
citizens are missing. South American banks had offices there. Numerous Asian
companies had offices and employees there. Hell, Thailand had an EMBASSY
there! If these guys were protesting American policy, they picked the wrong
target.
--Hanan
(who was trying to stay out of this--oh well.)
(1) I was actually corrected on this one by a French citizen, who said, "No,
we wouldn't push our own grandmother under the bus, but we'd gladly push
yours."
(2) One thing I DO admire the French for--they don't pussyfoot around with
terrorists.