Cleopatra's Asp -- Spoilers
Pintele
from s. 3 through 5
Speculations about the future based solely on meditation on present and past
eps & broad mythological themes.
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It was cute, huh?
Not. Bloody ep. And like all the really gory ones, it dwells on the lower
insintcts, especially lust for revenge. As does "Kindred Spirits", in a way.
Like the Shakespeare "ep", er... play, it goes through and beyond all the flat
forms of tragedy to create a sort of "realistic" portrayal Love and War. The
play delves into the perils of loving one who loves themself more, who clings
to self-preservation, and the greater perils of clinging to self-preservation
through a clinging to "Ideal Love." But see, Antony finds transcendence in
self-sacrifice. Noble and "foolish." And Cleopatra... she teaches herself a
lesson when she kills herself to avoid capture, confinement, by Octavius
Ceasar- what she fled from in Antony. She could have sacrificed her self to
Antony and maybe escaped without a kingdom. Instead, she gives it all up for
love of only her self. (Yeah, a simplistic reading. It's Shakespeare, for
chrissakes. Every reading is too simple.)
And I suspect Xena and Gab will soon finally be forced to come to grips with
the necessity for self-sacrifice, with their fear of Death, of loss of the
other (If I lose Gab I lose "my center"), and maybe finally understand what
they have run from all this time. That Death is not an ending, only
transformation. But it is what one makes of it- one can make it into a final
ending by seeing only one's fear of endings. One can make it into a powerful
force for change (in oneself) by letting go of the desire to preserve anything
about oneself. "Antony and Cleopatra" is about letting the "Hated Other" go.
It is about responding to betrayal with the desire for revenge, and losing
everything, everything. Is the Pax Romana "peace"? A "peace" worth killing
for? Or is "peace" something that is only obtained by willing sacrifice of
one's self, not the selves of others?
I'm interested in how noone has remarked upon Xena's total sacrifice of Joxer
in "Kindred Spirits". Not only do Xena and Gab act like totally selfish,
self-absorbed jerks during the entire ep, taking out all their sublimated
sexual simmering on Joxer through physical attacks... (*Everything* they hear
from anyone's mouth is interpreted as sexual? They hear only what they "want"
to hear... until Xena finally actually opens her heart to hear *everything*
Gab has to say, in her scrolls, and they "give it up.") Xena hits Joxer
because he failed to deliver a letter for her, not because he "deserves" it for
looking at Amazons- despoiling their "Honor."
Honor, Pride, Jealousy, Revenge- it's all in there. "Desire" writ large. And
it causes "Fear"- of the "other", the "pervert", the "loser", and "kills" him.
Oy.
Even after Xena and Gab get a clue and figure out that they must stage a
*ritual* sacrifice to appease the bloodlust of "their tribe", they still treat
Joxer like shit. They use him as the Scapegoat, and do save his ass, but not
really. He saves their asses, by consenting to be *used* (as he was willing
for Rhea), because he gets it- that self-sacrifice gives one power. But the
tribe only gets power from sacrifice when they ask for full consent of the
straw man, the "victim". Joxer "consents" under duress- he has no choice but
to submit. So he endures the death experience, the shutting off of his mind,
body, breath, and heart. Fire, Earth, Air, Water. He undergoes the Gabdrag at
Xena's hands, and does he gain his own internal "Bitter Suite"? I suspect Jox
has figured out that "the love of your love is you". But, of course, Xena and
Gab haven't really. Not *for real*, ina way they can use in the world,
consistently, without an *other* to remind them, through love or through hate.
I have this little somewhat inane theory that one can link each episode of the
4th and 5th season to a Tarot card. The 4th season going from 0 to 22, Fool to
World, and the 5th season descending from completion to chaos, World to Fool.
It's just sort of a way of meditating on the eps. "Kindred Spirits" then
matches up with the ideas expressed in "The High Priest" and "Antony and
Cleopatra" with "The Emperor". The lessons of chaos and dissolution learned in
mastery of the lower instincts in encounters in the "real world", the material
world, through holding on to knowledge of the source. ("Fallen Angel" as "The
World"). It's as if Xena and Gab wandered through the initiation into the
Mysteries (Eleusinian, Orphic, Isis, Cybele, Tantra, whatever- different skin,
same bones) in s. 4, and then had to find their way out again, without shedding
too much of what they learned... (i.e. shedding too much "blood".)
"The High Priest" would mean that "KS" is about the mediation of spiritual crap
and worldy shit through an intermediary upon which we can project all our fears
and desires, and so move beyond them. That's the Scapegoat, or the "Priest",
depending on your practice. One is mastered, the other is "Master". Same damn
thing.
"The Emperor" is about mastery of the masculine world, as in governance,
fatherhood, diplomacy, etc. And a lot more. But it is about embracing the
legacy of the "Father"- or the uncle, maybe. Lust for control, lust for power,
lust for revenge, tamed and sublimated for the greater good. Xena and
Gabrielle master men in "A&C" but they fail themselves again. They project all
the badness onto the bad boys, killing them in lust for revenge, however masked
in "desire for peace". That's always the ultimate pose of innocence- "I am
innocent. My actions do not cause harm because I kill only evil people for the
greater good." Sound familiar? Like regression? We're back in WIR, and A
Good Day, struggling with the same choices, stuck in the "either/or" dialectic,
unable to move to "both/and". X&G pose together in the distance, but they are
alone. Alone in their selfish clinging to righteousness, to innocence, to
self-preservation. Unable to give of themselves to create real peace. Unable
to meet the Other in the middle and negotiate a temporary peace- the diplomacy
they "win" in the end...
They have slaughtered in the name of peace, sacrificed others. This may be OK,
whatever, but then they do not ask for absolution, for forgiveness. Xena and
Gabrielle *never* apologize for their killings. Except when they do it in
ritual form as amazon shamanesses... hmm... ritual "requires" atonement,
becoming at-one with the sacrificial victim, in spirit if not in body or mind
or heart. Without this... one will end up kiling oneself. Xena and Gab will
run, run, run to the ends of the earth fleeing destruction, and will be forced
to kill themselves because they can not live in the world they "make" in their
image. In some way, if not "real" killing. So far they have "killed" almost
everyone else.
There's just Eve left now. And themselves. And their Gods.
I've been thinking about how Eve is missing in "Antony and Cleopatra". She was
around for "KS", as sort of a mediator of tensions. Her presence created the
desire in Rhea for a baby, which brought her to say out loud that men weren't
all bad, and made her "reach out" to Joxer. Eve has been bringing Xena and
Gabrielle together despite the obvious pulls away from each other. And she is
at the center of the whole battle with the Gods. She forces Xena and Gabrielle
to engage with the Gods, and in the process... "kill" them. Eve is Lady
Death. She is Death as Transformation. Which means she is the embodiment of
Compassion.
Gab had Hope by throwing off some part of herself deep within and projecting it
onto the world around her, as suddenly evil and malevolent. The world she
portrays in her scrolls has never been the same, like when she started writing
about love after "Destiny." Hope is like the silver screen holding Gab's
projection of her aggression. Gab poisoned Hope in Maternal Instincts and
killed a part of herself she regained only a glimpse of in "Forget Me Not"-
where she admitted to one aggressive desire- jealousy, cast as a little white
lust for revenge. Somehow it's not so bad when it's only directed against the
one you love, because they are capable of really *getting* you. Fear of loss
is strong where desire is strong, and so... it comes out.
But then in "Sacrifice" Gab killed Hope again... and was not allowed to die.
Why not? She was "thrown into a niche in the wall", left hanging. Why? You
don't *get8 the peace death brings when you sacrifice the hated other to save
your self. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Gabrielle should have
eaten her child- dissected her, analyzed her and understood that she is part of
herself, and assimiliated that knowledge. With compassion born of atonement,
she could have stopped Hope's destruction of Gab's "world", by transforming the
world, seeing it differently. But she chose to kill *Hope* of all things. And
in lust for revenge, cool, hard lust, Xena killed Callisto. "*I* will *live*
with *my* pain. No more living for *you*." i.e. "I am better than you for
some unfathomable reason. Die, fiend." And so... she set the scene for the
crucifixion at Callisto's hands, didn't she?
Why else would releasing of the Shadow- forgiveness of Callisto- begin Season
5? I suspect "apology" to Shadows, taking responsiblity for the acts that
"created" them as monsters, will end it. Compassion has two sides- forgiving
those who traipse upon one's grave, but also apologizing to "the world"- taking
responsibility for one's actions through the one's present and future actions
instead of "forgetting the past". Remaking the past through actions in the
present and the future, not just "changing one's mind".
Anyway. "Antony and Cleopatra" shows a way out of the continual bloodbath, a
way as yet untaken. It does not mean and end to the killing. It means an end
to killing in the name of peace, killing using love as a weapon of war. Love
is sacred. Sacrifice of the sacred in the name of war or revenge or lust for
power... it will never bring peace. Peace comes... when we read between the
lines.
Oh- one more thing. Ever notice how all this season Eve has been "killing" the
Gods? Each one has shown his or her self as strangely transformed- the God of
War divided by Love, the Goddess of cold, hard Justice softened by Love, the
Goddess of explosive and fickle Passion (dare I say) tamed by Love, Dischord
made to cooperate with Aphrodite in a common scheme to win love... etc. Eli
was the scapegoat, the symbol of self-sacrifice as the way of love, the way to
peace. But Eve... she is the catalyst. Why? Is the child conceived of
Transcendent Love thrown off from one's self- cast onto the beloved other- is
that child simultaneously the symbol of Idealized Love and Righteous
Aggression? Symbols that lead us/X&G in the right direction, but that require
a choice to go through, to transcendence?
We'd have to read between the lines to answer that. Anyway. Off to save
bandwidth for a while.
-pintele
Raoul
Mythologic continues to unsettle me: how does myth get its meaning
vs how do individuals get mythological status. Which one should
dominate? Context, I s'pose, counts. X&G presumably don't really
have an individual's context, so they are myth incarnate. But
how do we arrive at mythological interpretation without first
crediting them with individual's journeys? Argh.
What can I say, really? Tho the incautious viewer may see no
distinction, not even Herc is on here, it having been replaced
by Jerry "I'm a first time stripper" Springer.
So to the more general question: what if X&G complete the lesbian
heroes journey? Big resounding bang as they come in fulfilled
unison, and then... they die? Go home for a good night's sleep?
Since X&G are at least nominally individuals, must not the
journey never end (thus karmic cycles through the big park
of the universe), and since X&G are at least nominally
episodic tv characters, must not the journey end weekly
(thus subtext vs maintext).
Ahhhhh, logorrhea, when too many words are never enough.
Gail Futoran
gone. I found it on deja.com and mailed it to myself so I
can still answer it. But it's a bit unnerving that her post
disappeared.
Gail
sons...@mindspring.com
Guess it depends on your ISP's newshost. It's still here on mine.
Pintele
:). was wondering if you had wandered off into the ether.
>Mythologic continues to unsettle me: how does myth get its meaning
>vs how do individuals get mythological status. Which one should
>dominate? Context, I s'pose, counts. X&G presumably don't really
>have an individual's context, so they are myth incarnate. But
>how do we arrive at mythological interpretation without first
>crediting them with individual's journeys? Argh.
>
Don't they, even as fictional characters, simultaneously inhabit both spaces?
One can read the surface, the "individual story", in which even Xena's
individual story and Gabrielle's individual story rarely fit together like the
two sides of that bowl in AFA, and read the characters as symbols engaged in
metaphorical relations "by the book", at the same time. It's all in the choice
of focus, the style of reading, which fluctuates from moment to moment.
Either/or or both/and; it's a choice, constantly remade. Or choice is merely
an illusion... what a sad story to tell.
"I" can look at "my" own individual life and make many stories. "I" can create
a fiction that makes "me" wholly separate and specific or I can read events and
interactions as signs and symbols that lead to a deeper myth of everything as
interconnected and "larger than life" in which any "I" is a small speck of dust
on the highway. Xena as a warrior hero is an individual story. Xena as a human
being making her way in the world like everybody else... that is the myth.
Oh, the irony of it all. Irony steels us to mystery's unveiled force.
"Histories, like ancient ruins, are the fictions of empires. While everything
forgotten hangs in dark dreams of the past, ever threatening to return."
-Todd Haynes, "Velvet Goldmine"
>What can I say, really? Tho the incautious viewer may see no
>distinction, not even Herc is on here, it having been replaced
>by Jerry "I'm a first time stripper" Springer.
>
Ouch. Though, speaking of men who have created great myths around
themselves... I'm moving to the state that elected Jesse "The Body" Ventura to
public office, if that makes you feel any better. They sell his doll in the
airport.
>So to the more general question: what if X&G complete the lesbian
>heroes journey? Big resounding bang as they come in fulfilled
>unison, and then... they die? Go home for a good night's sleep?
>
Or find out that there's a lot more to life than coming and going... like what
happens in between if they let it unfold instead of resisting so heroically.
At some point one says, "...Whatever."
>Since X&G are at least nominally individuals, must not the
>journey never end (thus karmic cycles through the big park
>of the universe), and since X&G are at least nominally
>episodic tv characters, must not the journey end weekly
>(thus subtext vs maintext).
>
Well, depends on if you read the theory of reincarnation as a metaphor for
lives within a lifetime or read it literally, or both... X&G die a lot, and
yet have not died yet. How does one read this?
And there's the theory that at some point one escapes the cycle to go off into
the ether. Is that real death or a metaphor for going beyond needing all that
dying and rebirth just to get a clue? Or do the cycles just get a lot less
dramatic when the sacrifices are only of ego, and not of people, places or
things, and when it gets easier from repetition?
>
>Ahhhhh, logorrhea, when too many words are never enough.
>
>
Ahhhh, logarithm, when letting yourself be carried away by a flood of words,
rushing along too fast to think, frees you (mostly) from giving a shit. Ha.
-pintele
"I don't wanna die tonight. I don't wanna die tonight." - Beck, "Nicotine and
Gravy"
Gail Futoran
news:39087BB5...@mindspring.com...
> Gail Futoran wrote:
> >
> > What happened to Pintele's post? It was here, then it was
> > gone. I found it on deja.com and mailed it to myself so I
> > can still answer it. But it's a bit unnerving that her post
> > disappeared.
> Guess it depends on your ISP's newshost. It's still here on mine.
I've got posts dating back to 4/9 that my ISP is still hosting.
Why are they picking on Pintele??? WAAAHHH!!!
<G>ail
Raoul
>In article <3907a46...@news.latrobe.edu.au>, e...@sabre.che (Raoul) writes:
>
>:). was wondering if you had wandered off into the ether.
Just wandered off on ether. (Mutters: "crazy kids")
>>Mythologic continues to unsettle me: how does myth get its meaning
>>vs how do individuals get mythological status. Which one should
>>dominate? Context, I s'pose, counts. X&G presumably don't really
>>have an individual's context, so they are myth incarnate. But
>>how do we arrive at mythological interpretation without first
>>crediting them with individual's journeys? Argh.
>>
>
>Don't they, even as fictional characters, simultaneously inhabit both spaces?
>One can read the surface, the "individual story", in which even Xena's
>individual story and Gabrielle's individual story rarely fit together like the
>two sides of that bowl in AFA, and read the characters as symbols engaged in
>metaphorical relations "by the book", at the same time. It's all in the choice
>of focus, the style of reading, which fluctuates from moment to moment.
>Either/or or both/and; it's a choice, constantly remade. Or choice is merely
>an illusion... what a sad story to tell.
Yep to the "inhabit both spaces" -- my problem comes with the
feeling that the spaces are finally contradictory... mabye.
Ok: the myth space grants meaning to the indiv space and the
indiv space thereby shares liveliness with the myth -- generation,
regeneration, yadda yadda yadda -- meaning passes back and forth.
But: life just goes on and on, kinda relentless, where myth
gets all climactic from time to time. Seem to make the ordinary,
vague, wierd nothingness of being the central element over mythic
significance. In a way, slapping FA on after IOM makes sense
then -- crucifixion (the big bang) followed by some standing around
on a rock waiting for whatever rolls up next.
>"I" can look at "my" own individual life and make many stories. "I" can create
>a fiction that makes "me" wholly separate and specific or I can read events and
>interactions as signs and symbols that lead to a deeper myth of everything as
>interconnected and "larger than life" in which any "I" is a small speck of dust
>on the highway. Xena as a warrior hero is an individual story. Xena as a human
>being making her way in the world like everybody else... that is the myth.
>Oh, the irony of it all. Irony steels us to mystery's unveiled force.
>
>"Histories, like ancient ruins, are the fictions of empires. While everything
>forgotten hangs in dark dreams of the past, ever threatening to return."
>-Todd Haynes, "Velvet Goldmine"
You stroke me like the rain.
>>What can I say, really? Tho the incautious viewer may see no
>>distinction, not even Herc is on here, it having been replaced
>>by Jerry "I'm a first time stripper" Springer.
>>
>
>Ouch. Though, speaking of men who have created great myths around
>themselves... I'm moving to the state that elected Jesse "The Body" Ventura to
>public office, if that makes you feel any better. They sell his doll in the
>airport.
Now that's funny. Mabye you could plant a few Xena dolls
and see what happens, a sort of voodoo candidate.
>>So to the more general question: what if X&G complete the lesbian
>>heroes journey? Big resounding bang as they come in fulfilled
>>unison, and then... they die? Go home for a good night's sleep?
>>
>
>Or find out that there's a lot more to life than coming and going... like what
>happens in between if they let it unfold instead of resisting so heroically.
>At some point one says, "...Whatever."
hmmm.... y'know, we both have made claims about what's really
what... to be clearer: is it indeed a kind of live and let
live satiation that marks a well done life?
("satiation"? am I making up words again... "satedness"?)
>>Since X&G are at least nominally individuals, must not the
>>journey never end (thus karmic cycles through the big park
>>of the universe), and since X&G are at least nominally
>>episodic tv characters, must not the journey end weekly
>>(thus subtext vs maintext).
>>
>
>Well, depends on if you read the theory of reincarnation as a metaphor for
>lives within a lifetime or read it literally, or both... X&G die a lot, and
>yet have not died yet. How does one read this?
Ah well, the reincarnation link was a facile one by me for
a big finale... the thing I'm wondering about is the nature
of endings and what makes them satisfactory, so necessarily
I need a decent end run, even if I have to make it up...
Cleanthes
>from s. 3 through 5
>
>Speculations about the future based solely on meditation on present and past
>eps & broad mythological themes.
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)
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)
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>It was cute, huh?
Yeah, I cut and pasted just to preseve the form without putting in a bunch of
">"'s Too bad there isn't a character that looks like a snake's fangs.
>Not. Bloody ep. And like all the really gory ones, it dwells on the lower
>insintcts, especially lust for revenge. As does "Kindred Spirits", in a way.
The gore appeals to the excitement response in our brains. PAY ATTENTION!
Lower, or at least primative, instincts, as you say.
<snipped Shakespeare comments>
>And I suspect Xena and Gab will soon finally be forced to come to grips with
>the necessity for self-sacrifice, with their fear of Death, of loss of the
>other (If I lose Gab I lose "my center"), and maybe finally understand what
>they have run from all this time. That Death is not an ending, only
>transformation. But it is what one makes of it- one can make it into a final
>ending by seeing only one's fear of endings. One can make it into a powerful
>force for change (in oneself) by letting go of the desire to preserve
>anything
>about oneself. "Antony and Cleopatra" is about letting the "Hated Other" go.
I saw the episode more a tension between the desire for control as expressed in
the idea of an elaborate scheme of betrayal and the desire of the old way, the
sex way, the thing which Xena thought she wanted - a strong sexy man.
Xena may love Gabrielle and want to stay with Gabrielle forever but Xena
hasn't excised her old fantasies. Gabrielle isn't the fantasy partner, even if
Gabrielle is the partner for life.
In Kindred Spirits, Xena dislikes gentle lovers while Gabrielle likes them.
They're both surprised. We never get what we want.
So Xena must play Julius Caesar's game against Antony. But Antony is not so
very immoral. He's much like Xena was BEFORE she met JC. Why must he be
betrayed? And he's so damn cute and not-Gabrielle and not-LBDed to boring.
Duty is a heavy burden, Xena.
<snipped rhetorical questions to which I would otherwise find tempting to offer
unrealistic answers>
>I'm interested in how noone has remarked upon Xena's total sacrifice of Joxer
>in "Kindred Spirits". Not only do Xena and Gab act like totally selfish,
>self-absorbed jerks during the entire ep, taking out all their sublimated
>sexual simmering on Joxer through physical attacks... (*Everything* they
>hear
>from anyone's mouth is interpreted as sexual? They hear only what they
>"want"
>to hear... until Xena finally actually opens her heart to hear *everything*
>Gab has to say, in her scrolls, and they "give it up.") Xena hits Joxer
>because he failed to deliver a letter for her, not because he "deserves" it
>for
>looking at Amazons- despoiling their "Honor."
That was pissy of her. He took for granted their rescue, though. That was
Joxer's sin. He takes a lot for granted.
>Honor, Pride, Jealousy, Revenge- it's all in there. "Desire" writ large.
>And it causes "Fear"- of the "other", the "pervert", the "loser", and "kills"
him.
>Oy.
>
>Even after Xena and Gab get a clue and figure out that they must stage a
>*ritual* sacrifice to appease the bloodlust of "their tribe", they still treat
>Joxer like shit. They use him as the Scapegoat, and do save his ass, but not
really. He saves their asses, by consenting to be *used* (as he was willing
>for Rhea), because he gets it- that self-sacrifice gives one power. But the
tribe only gets power from sacrifice when they ask for full consent of the
>straw man, the "victim". Joxer "consents" under duress- he has no choice but
to submit. So he endures the death experience, the shutting off of his mind,
>body, breath, and heart. Fire, Earth, Air, Water. He undergoes the Gabdrag
>at Xena's hands, and does he gain his own internal "Bitter Suite"? I suspect
>Jox has figured out that "the love of your love is you". But, of course, Xena
and
>Gab haven't really. Not *for real*, ina way they can use in the world,
consistently, without an *other* to remind them, through love or through
>hate.
Yeah!
The wrestling scene bracketed off a theatricality to the Gabdrag of Joxer. He
had the advantage of undergoing his trial inside the extra layer of fiction.
So he died rather like Empress Gabrielle dies INSIDE Illusia.
>I have this little somewhat inane theory that one can link each episode of
>the
>4th and 5th season to a Tarot card. The 4th season going from 0 to 22, Fool
>to
>World, and the 5th season descending from completion to chaos, World to Fool.
Inane isn't the right word. Hypertrophied, perhaps, but not inane.
Whence "chance"? Science offers no answer. So, why do the I Ching and the
Tarot do what they do? No reason? Why? Well, the worship of No Reason
doesn't need to trump the worship of Dolly Parton's boobs, does it?
>It's just sort of a way of meditating on the eps. "Kindred Spirits" then
>matches up with the ideas expressed in "The High Priest" and "Antony and
>Cleopatra" with "The Emperor". The lessons of chaos and dissolution learned
>in
>mastery of the lower instincts in encounters in the "real world", the
>material
>world, through holding on to knowledge of the source. ("Fallen Angel" as
>"The
>World"). It's as if Xena and Gab wandered through the initiation into the
>Mysteries (Eleusinian, Orphic, Isis, Cybele, Tantra, whatever- different
>skin,
>same bones) in s. 4, and then had to find their way out again, without
>shedding
>too much of what they learned... (i.e. shedding too much "blood".)
>
>"The High Priest" would mean that "KS" is about the mediation of spiritual
>crap
>and worldy shit through an intermediary upon which we can project all our
>fears
>and desires, and so move beyond them. That's the Scapegoat, or the "Priest",
>depending on your practice. One is mastered, the other is "Master". Same
damn thing.
Joxer wasn't the fool, he was the hermet and the hanged man, and so he
remains.
This place beyond the projected fears and desires -- Joxer will still fall
down alot when he's there, won't he? I think so.
>"The Emperor" is about mastery of the masculine world, as in governance,
>fatherhood, diplomacy, etc. And a lot more. But it is about embracing the
legacy of the "Father"- or the uncle, maybe. Lust for control, lust for power,
>lust for revenge, tamed and sublimated for the greater good. Xena and
>Gabrielle master men in "A&C" but they fail themselves again. They project
>all the badness onto the bad boys, killing them in lust for revenge, however
>masked in "desire for peace". That's always the ultimate pose of innocence-
"I am
>innocent. My actions do not cause harm because I kill only evil people for
>the greater good." Sound familiar? Like regression? We're back in WIR, and
A
>Good Day, struggling with the same choices, stuck in the "either/or"
>dialectic, unable to move to "both/and". X&G pose together in the distance,
but they
>are alone. Alone in their selfish clinging to righteousness, to innocence, to
>self-preservation. Unable to give of themselves to create real peace.
>Unable to meet the Other in the middle and negotiate a temporary peace- the
>diplomacy they "win" in the end...
No comment beyond agreement and a note that "both/and" doesn't require weighing
of the components, anymore than water takes on 2/3 of the Hydrogen attributes.
The combined "both/and" has unique properties which only came into being by the
combination.
That's missing in selfish clinging and may be part of the widespread
elementary criticism of season 5.
>They have slaughtered in the name of peace, sacrificed others. This may be
>OK, whatever, but then they do not ask for absolution, for forgiveness. Xena
and
>Gabrielle *never* apologize for their killings. Except when they do it in
>ritual form as amazon shamanesses... hmm... ritual "requires" atonement,
>becoming at-one with the sacrificial victim, in spirit if not in body or mind
>or heart. Without this... one will end up kiling oneself. Xena and Gab
>will run, run, run to the ends of the earth fleeing destruction, and will be
>forced to kill themselves because they can not live in the world they "make"
in
>their image. In some way, if not "real" killing. So far they have "killed"
almost
>everyone else.
Good point, this. Gabrielle used to stay behind at times and try to make
partial amends. Now she draws her weapon on fellas pulling out their hankies.
>There's just Eve left now. And themselves. And their Gods.
>
>I've been thinking about how Eve is missing in "Antony and Cleopatra". She
>was
>around for "KS", as sort of a mediator of tensions. Her presence created the
>desire in Rhea for a baby, which brought her to say out loud that men weren't
>all bad, and made her "reach out" to Joxer. Eve has been bringing Xena and
>Gabrielle together despite the obvious pulls away from each other. And she
>is
>at the center of the whole battle with the Gods. She forces Xena and
>Gabrielle
>to engage with the Gods, and in the process... "kill" them. Eve is Lady
>Death. She is Death as Transformation. Which means she is the embodiment of
>Compassion.
I'll be looking for this when I see `Livia` Sunday night.
>Gab had Hope by throwing off some part of herself deep within and projecting
>it onto the world around her, as suddenly evil and malevolent. The world she
>portrays in her scrolls has never been the same, like when she started
>writing about love after "Destiny." Hope is like the silver screen holding
Gab's
>projection of her aggression. Gab poisoned Hope in Maternal Instincts and
>killed a part of herself she regained only a glimpse of in "Forget Me Not"-
>where she admitted to one aggressive desire- jealousy, cast as a little white
>lust for revenge. Somehow it's not so bad when it's only directed against
>the one you love, because they are capable of really *getting* you. Fear of
loss
>is strong where desire is strong, and so... it comes out.
Gabrielle imagined she could put a limit on infinity. She thought she could
figure things out. Hope had to be so very impossible because Gabrielle was too
smart to lose to the universe unless it appeared to her in a whirlwind.
Oh sure, quit in the middle! Well, I'll start in on the other part in a
moment or a day.
Cleanthes (GGGHD) .-- Behold that great Plotinus swim,
Buffeted by such seas;
Bland Rhadamanthus beckons him,
But the Golden Race looks dim,
Salt blood blocks his eyes. WB Yeats
pintele
>pintele wrote:
>>Spoilers for "Antony and Cleopatra", "Kindred Spirits" and eps
>>up until then from s. 3 through 5
>>Speculations about the future based solely on meditation on
>>present and past eps & broad mythological themes.
and a teeny comment about "Livia"
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>And I suspect Xena and Gab will soon finally be forced to come
>to grips with the necessity for self-sacrifice, with their fear
>of Death, of loss of the other (If I lose Gab I lose "my
>center"), and maybe finally understand what they have run from
>all this time. That Death is not an ending, only
>transformation. But it is what one makes of it- one can make it
>into a final ending by seeing only one's fear of endings. One
>can make it into a powerful force for change (in oneself) by
>letting go of the desire to preserve anything
>about oneself. "Antony and Cleopatra" is about letting the
>"Hated Other" go.
>>I saw the episode more a tension between the desire for
>>control as expressed in the idea of an elaborate scheme of
>>betrayal and the desire of the old way, the sex way, the thing
>>which Xena thought she wanted - a strong sexy man.
Well, yeah- control being the not letting go. There's also the
control of Xena and Gab by the past, desire for revenge coming
from not being able to see that they are only in the now, not in
the then. You know... "That Was Then, This is Now", only
without Matt Dillon. : (. Tho Antony was Dillonesque in
moments.
>Xena may love Gabrielle and want to stay with Gabrielle forever
>but Xena hasn't excised her old fantasies. Gabrielle isn't the
>fantasy partner, even if Gabrielle is the partner for life.
>In Kindred Spirits, Xena dislikes gentle lovers while Gabrielle
>likes them. They're both surprised. We never get what we want.
Ya, we've seen her archetypal aspect- Green girl with the
scythe, grim. Definitely *not* a "bad boy". Guess Xena didn't
cuont on marrying her devouring Mother... gotta do it if ya
wanna be Daddy...
>So Xena must play Julius Caesar's game against Antony. But
>Antony is not so very immoral. He's much like Xena was BEFORE
>she met JC. Why must he be betrayed? And he's so damn cute and
>not-Gabrielle and not-LBDed to boring. Duty is a heavy burden,
>Xena.
In fact, Antony's *not* immoral. He's just married to Rome.
He's quite honest & upstanding. No bones about it. Xena just
didn't feel like diong the sensitive chat. She's all about not
wanting to do the work. She'd rather kick people around 'cos
they're bad than look within and find in herself the gift of
Gab...
>>Xena hits Joxer because he failed to deliver a letter for her,
>>not because he "deserves" it for
>>looking at Amazons- despoiling their "Honor."
>That was pissy of her. He took for granted their rescue,
>though. That was Joxer's sin. He takes a lot for granted.
Sort of. One forces one's friends, family and even lovers to
take your love for granted when one won't speak its name, ever.
He can't help but take much for granted when everyone treats him
like a mushroom. (You know, keeps him in the dark and feeds him
..) He assumes that others actually care about others the way
he cares about others. That's not actually taking them for
granted. It's more like buying their story- you know, that
they're heroes, spiritual and all that, "heroes"... he pushes
them to keep to their promise, every time.
>Joxer wasn't the fool, he was the hermet and the hanged man,
>and so he remains.
He's the Fool in his own story, though. And Xena and Gab are
the Hermit and Hanged Man... running for their lives...
>This place beyond the projected fears and desires -- Joxer will
>still fall down alot when he's there, won't he? I think so.
"Weebles wobble but they dno't fall down..." Isn't that the
Bardo? ha ha ha...
>...The combined "both/and" has unique properties which only
>came into being by the combination.
>That's missing in selfish clinging and may be part of the
>widespread elementary criticism of season 5.
Good point.
re: Eve as Compassion
I guess it's kinda the enemy as best teacher thing going on...
the way a teenage child always teaches us how to either evolve
or die...
>Oh sure, quit in the middle! Well, I'll start in on the other
>part in a moment or a day.
Cleanthes (GGGHD) .-- Behold that great Plotinus swim,
Buffeted by such seas;
Bland Rhadamanthus beckons him,
But the Golden Race looks dim,
Salt blood blocks his eyes. WB Yeats
Isn't that from "Sound of Music"? Oh that's "Start at the very
beginning..." How mundane.
-pintele
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