Never Again question
Godzil...@aol.com
alphakitten
Godzil...@aol.com wrote:
> Did Scully screw that guy or what?
>
Of course not. They just had a sleep over.
Are you serious?
~Angel
Robert Cook
It was sort of implied by the fact that she was wearing one of his
shirts, but they didn't actually sleep together afterward, so take that
as you will. I don't think that this question will ever be
definitively answered--certainly not in a literal sense.
Examining what happened figuratively, there was some symbolism
involving a rose petal and a blood stain that would seem to indicate
that Scully was using Ed as a surrogate for Mulder, since in this
episode, Mulder was especially clueless about her needs--you know,
stuff that she never talks to him about directly. :-) The funny thing
is that it wasn't sex that she needed from Mulder--it was just a weird
metaphor representing her need for him to recognize her as a separate
individual with her own identity.
Mulder didn't see this in the hints Scully had dropped earlier in the
episode, and in a fit of frustration she went out with Ed to get back
at Mulder, and find some kind of freedom and satisfaction in living her
own life. She was rebelling against Mulder as yet another controlling
male figure in her life (which was not true, as we would see in the
next episode, but this was how she felt at the time), and she also
wanted Mulder to feel threatened so that he would no longer take her
for granted. However, Ed turned out to be exactly the type of person
that she wanted to escape, despite outward appearances.
The question at this point is whether Scully, given everything I've
pointed out above, would have given in to Ed's apparent demand for sex
while she was rebelling against controlling male figures. Personally,
I doubt it. And just to follow up on this cursory analysis, in the
next episode Mulder brought Scully a whole bunch of rose petals, and
behaved like a whipped dog. :-)
> Of course not. They just had a sleep over.
>
> Are you serious?
I assume you're being sarcastic. Remember that this is "The X-Files"
we're dealing with here. What do you want to believe? ;-)
- Robert Cook
lynx
"Robert Cook" <rbr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118879793....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Are you serious?
>
> I assume you're being sarcastic. Remember that this is "The X-Files"
> we're dealing with here. What do you want to believe? ;-)
>
>
> - Robert Cook
>
with Autumn Tisko's review of the episode that assured me of the fact that,
in the morning, Scully wakens on the couch - yes, in Ed's shirt - but also
in pantyhose. And as Autumn said, "What woman would have sex and then put
pantyhose back on?" So, despite the raging arguments, I think it's pretty
fair to assume they didn't have sex.
--
lynx
Robert Cook
>
> Unsure of my memory, I had to google "never again pantyhose "- and came up
> with Autumn Tisko's review of the episode that assured me of the fact that,
> in the morning, Scully wakens on the couch - yes, in Ed's shirt - but also
> in pantyhose. And as Autumn said, "What woman would have sex and then put
> pantyhose back on?" So, despite the raging arguments, I think it's pretty
> fair to assume they didn't have sex.
Yeah, I'd forgotten to mention that, although it's one of the things
that I had vaguely referred to in the "X-Files movie press release"
thread as "mixed signals." In cases like this, the best assumption is
whichever one thinks is truer to the character, and I don't think that
Scully would have let it go that far.
Originally, Morgan & Wong had written a sex scene, but Carter yanked
those pages and made it ambiguous. Take that as you will.
Believe it or not, I think that an interesting comparison can be made
with the interrupted kiss in the movie. In both cases, desire and some
manner of physical realization can be combined to imply that something
took place, although there's an important difference.
In the movie, Mulder & Scully were definitely going to kiss before they
were interrupted, and he later gave her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation,
which in a strange way, sort of completed the act.
In "Never Again," Scully wanted satisfaction that was hers alone, so
she got the tattoo, during which sexual satisfaction was strongly
implied (why, I'm not sure, but the whole episode was sensationalistic
garbage, so there you go). To complete the act, sort of, she desired
to have sex with Ed, although she apparently did not follow through
with the physical aspect--the tattoo was the physical aspect. So in a
sense, Scully managed to go out and live her own independent life in a
way that she could not, at that time, do with Mulder (maybe that's why
sexuality was used here), but without actually having sex with some
stranger just because Mulder had pissed her off.
The main difference between these two instances of doing something
without actually doing it is, of course, that Scully chose not to act
on her desire with Ed in "Never Again," while an external factor (that
stupid bee) stopped her in the movie. The implication here is that the
act in the movie was meaningful, while the act in "Never Again" was not
(Scully was just using Ed to vent her frustration with her life and
Mulder).
To tell you the truth, I usually assume that this vulgar episode did
not even happen. There has been no continuity with the tattoo (Scully
had no recognition of the ouroboros in "Millennium," along with other
examples), and as metaphorically dense (albeit muddled) and meaningful
as this episode was (aside from its crassness), the next episode, the
preeminent "Memento Mori," actually brought up and resolved the same
issues just fine on its own.
- Robert Cook
XXXXgizzieXXXX
"Robert Cook" <> wrote
>> Godzil...@aol.com wrote:
>> > Did Scully screw that guy or what?
>
> It was sort of implied by the fact that she was wearing one of his
> shirts, but they didn't actually sleep together afterward, so take that
> as you will. I don't think that this question will ever be
> definitively answered--certainly not in a literal sense.
Do you think Mulder had sex with What's'erface, the Vampire chick, in
"3" ?
> The question at this point is whether Scully, given everything I've
> pointed out above, would have given in to Ed's apparent demand for sex
Demand?? I did not see his actions as demand, I saw it as escalating
desire.
XXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXX
************************************************
" I LOVE this! I've had SO much fun, met GREAT people.....
I'm so tired of hearing 'get a life!' This IS a life, it's just not
YOUR life, and if you don't 'get it', too bad."
Star Wars Fan
*************************************************
XXXXgizzieXXXX
"lynx" <> wrote
> Unsure of my memory, I had to google "never again pantyhose "- and came
> up with Autumn Tisko's review of the episode that assured me of the fact
> that, in the morning, Scully wakens on the couch - yes, in Ed's shirt -
> but also in pantyhose. And as Autumn said, "What woman would have sex and
> then put pantyhose back on?"
What woman would **sleep** in pantyhose???
>So, despite the raging arguments, I think it's pretty fair to assume they
>didn't have sex.
Again, Mulder and the vampire chick--what guy puts his clothes back
on and sleeps sitting up in a chair after having sex??
I rest my case.
XXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXX
(thinks they both got nailed)
XXXXgizzieXXXX
"Robert Cook" <> wrote
> In "Never Again," Scully wanted satisfaction that was hers alone, so
> she got the tattoo, during which sexual satisfaction was strongly
> implied (why, I'm not sure
Because getting a tattoo is a complete turn-on.
> and as metaphorically dense (albeit muddled) and meaningful
> as this episode was (aside from its crassness), the next episode, the
> preeminent "Memento Mori," actually brought up and resolved the same
> issues just fine on its own.
But those episodes were shown out of order; we attribute Scully's
attitude and actions in Never Again to the fact that she had just learned
she has cancer, when really, Never Again took place--or at least, was
filmed-- BEFORE Leonard Betts. Gillian Anderson has said in many interviews
that if she had known the sequence of broadcast, she would have played
Scully much different in Never Again.
BTW, Robert, the final office scene in Never Again is what pushed me off
the fence and into 'shipperdom.
XXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXX
lynx
"XXXXgizzieXXXX" <xxgiz...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:UoqdnQ6Qe9Z...@comcast.com...
>
> "lynx" <> wrote
>> Unsure of my memory, I had to google "never again pantyhose "- and came
>> up with Autumn Tisko's review of the episode that assured me of the fact
>> that, in the morning, Scully wakens on the couch - yes, in Ed's shirt -
>> but also in pantyhose. And as Autumn said, "What woman would have sex and
>> then put pantyhose back on?"
>
> What woman would **sleep** in pantyhose???
Yeah, good point.
>>So, despite the raging arguments, I think it's pretty fair to assume they
>>didn't have sex.
>
> Again, Mulder and the vampire chick--what guy puts his clothes back
> on and sleeps sitting up in a chair after having sex??
>
> I rest my case.
>
>
> XXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXX
> (thinks they both got nailed)
I guess I've always thought that Mulder and Kristen did it. But with Never
Again, I think I've never really come to a conclusion. Pantyhose or no.
And, as we've discussed many times before, I too became a shipper after that
last scene in Never Again. "But it's my....."
--
lynx
BoycottAI
asleep exhausted?
"XXXXgizzieXXXX" <xxgiz...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:UoqdnQ6Qe9Z...@comcast.com...
>
Robert Cook
>
> "Robert Cook" <> wrote
> >
> > In "Never Again," Scully wanted satisfaction that was hers alone, so
> > she got the tattoo, during which sexual satisfaction was strongly
> > implied (why, I'm not sure
>
> Because getting a tattoo is a complete turn-on.
Sorry, my choice of phrasing was ambiguous. I was wondering why sex
was used as a metaphor in the first place, and I partly answered my own
question later.
> > and as metaphorically dense (albeit muddled) and meaningful
> > as this episode was (aside from its crassness), the next episode, the
> > preeminent "Memento Mori," actually brought up and resolved the same
> > issues just fine on its own.
>
> But those episodes were shown out of order; we attribute Scully's
> attitude and actions in Never Again to the fact that she had just learned
> she has cancer, when really, Never Again took place--or at least, was
> filmed-- BEFORE Leonard Betts.
You're right, and actually, I wasn't thinking about the cancer issue
when I criticized the episode...well, I might have been remembering my
reaction when it was first broadcast, in this regard. I just think
that it went too far in some ways for this series, although I have to
admit that I never quite realized how well it did tie in with "Memento
Mori" until I wrote about it in the "What Do *You* Consider the Most
Mysterious Thing About the XF?" thread last month.
> Gillian Anderson has said in many interviews
> that if she had known the sequence of broadcast, she would have played
> Scully much different in Never Again.
That certainly would've been interesting to see.
> BTW, Robert, the final office scene in Never Again is what pushed me off
> the fence and into 'shipperdom.
My gripes aside, it's a very shippy episode in its own way. That's why
I've started to doubt what people have said about Morgan & Wong being
anti-shipper. They might not have wanted a "typical romance," but
judging by their episodes (even those of Season 4), they really wanted
to bring the relationship to the foreground, one way or the other. It
all depends on how one defines shippiness.
- Robert Cook
Robert Cook
>
> "Robert Cook" <> wrote
> >
> >> Godzil...@aol.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Did Scully screw that guy or what?
> >
> > It was sort of implied by the fact that she was wearing one of his
> > shirts, but they didn't actually sleep together afterward, so take that
> > as you will. I don't think that this question will ever be
> > definitively answered--certainly not in a literal sense.
>
> Do you think Mulder had sex with What's'erface,
Kristen Kilar.
> the Vampire chick, in
> "3" ?
I can't be absolutely certain about this one, either. It's possible
that he did not, but I've always thought that he *probably* did.
Mulder was in a very self-destructive state of mind--frankly, I would
not have been surprised if he had put his gun in his mouth and pulled
the trigger. I doubt that Scully was nearly that upset in "Never
Again," and she had already gotten her tattoo.
Now, if this had been just a random incident in which Scully went on a
date, one thing led to another, and she finally got to satisfy a
physical need, that would be one thing, but "Never Again" was all about
her and Mulder (that's what the show was always about, so this is
hypothetical).
> > The question at this point is whether Scully, given everything I've
> > pointed out above, would have given in to Ed's apparent demand for sex
>
> Demand??
I chose this word deliberately. :-) I tried to frame the situation
from what I thought would be Scully's point of view.
> I did not see his actions as demand, I saw it as escalating
> desire.
Ed had his own issues with people controlling him, of course, but
underneath he was a control freak himself, and in his own way, he was
taking advantage of Scully's vulnerability during this episode in order
to control her. At the very least, he wanted to take his frustration
over his own everyday powerlessness out on someone else--vengeance by
proxy. Scully was normally not nearly as wimpy as this guy, nor was
she being controlled by Mulder as much as she thought she was, but
because of the circumstances, she was more open to reverse psychology
and suggestion than usual, here. The question is whether or when she
realized what was really going on. If she had gone all the way and
nailed this control freak out of frustration with that other control
freak, then what would this have proven?
If Ed had been a different character, then he would merely have been
giving Scully something she wanted, with the point (assuming that she
was not going to start a romantic relationship with someone other than
Mulder) being that if Mulder wanted Scully to continue to be an
intimate part of his life, then he'd better give her the respect she
deserved as an individual with her own life, needs, and desires, as
opposed to being merely a part of his megalomaniacal cosmology.
However, as he was written, Ed was a closet control freak, and for
Scully to have given him what he wanted--in the context of this
specific episode--after she had already rebelled and received her own
satisfaction, would have undermined the point that Scully was trying to
make to herself, the audience, and ultimately to Mulder.
Morgan & Wong attempted something very ambitious with this episode, and
based on how much my head hurts (in a good way ;-) ) just trying to
figure out the points they were trying to make with all of these
densely tangled symbols and metaphors, I think that they simply messed
up somewhere along the line. That's probably why Carter axed the sex
scene, leaving us to choose what works best for our own understanding.
For me, based on the three analyses I've done in this thread from at
least as many perspectives, "Never Again" only makes sense if Scully
had *not* committed the physical act of sex with Ed, so that's what I
choose to believe.
Wow, I've never used the words "sex" and "satisfaction" so many times
in a single thread before! Was it good for all of you, too? ;-)
- Robert Cook
campylobacter
Boyc...@boycottAI.com wrote on 6/17/05 8:39 AM:
> Maybe they had "Pantyhose Sex" (some guys are into pantyhose) and she fell
> asleep exhausted?
My theory: Scully doesn't wear pantyhose over her MOUTH.
Also, her tattoo was new, so she wouldn't be comfortable on her back; if
she's on her hands and knees, she wouldn't have to pull down those pantyhose
too far.
- campy
SamPiper
WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN!!! :-D
BoycottAI
"campylobacter" <sp...@sucks.com> wrote in message
news:BED9A447.20FD%sp...@sucks.com...
campylobacter
> WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN!!! :-D
Workin' like a dawg. But it pays rent.
- camps
campylobacter
> Maybe they were crotchless?
I like the way you think. Have you ever considered writing fanfic?
- campy
SamPiper
In all seriousness, I know a (sort of) big deal was made about her
wearing hose ... but how do we know that? Maybe they were just thigh
highs?
BoycottAI
bare... maybe she has ugly legs.
"SamPiper" <samp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1119348872.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
BoycottAI
Let's end the suspense :-)
Although, some fan fiction never hurt anyone ;)
"campylobacter" <sp...@sucks.com> wrote in message
news:BEDCD01C.2131%sp...@sucks.com...
campylobacter
> In all seriousness
And Scully's hosiery *is* a serious topic.
> I know a (sort of) big deal was made about her
> wearing hose ... but how do we know that?
I don't have the DVDs, so I can't slo-mo a hi-rez still to verify this. VHS
and an old TV set don't do the job right. Any volunteers to look closely at
Scully's knee-to-crotch area?
> Maybe they were just thigh highs?
OK, *you* need to write the fanfic that describes that missing scene in
"Never Again".
- campy
campylobacter
> Are you being facetious? I'll bet you a million dollars that ya aren't.
> Let's end the suspense :-)
>
> Although, some fan fiction never hurt anyone ;)
Forget all that literary elucidation! I read fan fiction solely for the
porn.
- campy
campylobacter
Boyc...@boycottAI.com wrote o:
> How do you know it was a big deal?
There was a big deal about SCULLY'S CHASTITY = DEVOTION TO MULDER during the
heyday of the Shipper versus Noromo wars. That "Barbie Shippers" faction of
XF fandom is currently cloistering itself somewhere in really dreadful,
schmoopy fanfic where no other character threatens the purity of their
"deep, abiding luv".
> Never seen Scully's legs in shorts or
> bare... maybe she has ugly legs.
You be the judge.
I think GA's wearing hose in this one:
http://duchovny.net/gallery/data/media/99/ew-outtakes06.jpg
Not sure of this one:
http://webpages.marshall.edu/~cowger3/gillian_anderson_p2.jpg
Me? I like looking at GA's lips.
- campy
BoycottAI
http://www.munchkyn.com/xf-rvws/neveragain.html
"Robert Cook" <rbr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118879793....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
SamPiper
> SamPiper wrote:
>
> > In all seriousness
> And Scully's hosiery *is* a serious topic.
I missed you.
> Any volunteers to look closely at
> Scully's knee-to-crotch area?
Is Sean still around?
> OK, *you* need to write the fanfic that describes that missing scene in
> "Never Again".
Why ME?! We've been OVER this. I SUCK! and you KNOW how I feel about
smut for the sake of smut. Plus, I've made ZERO progress on the ulcer
since '03 (well, that's not entirely true .. I finally came up with a
title). You tell me to do it and it'll NEVER get done.
SamPiper
> Forget all that literary elucidation! I read fan fiction solely for the
> porn.
Because the pictures suck.
SamPiper
> That "Barbie Shippers" faction of
> XF fandom is currently cloistering itself somewhere in really dreadful,
> schmoopy fanfic where no other character threatens the purity of their
> "deep, abiding luv".
Spare me ... I get through one of those and I'm looking for some nice,
headcase, graphic, dead bodies hanging from the ceiling gore.
Or a good Krycek being an unrepent bastard and loving it fic.
Vince
> Me? I like looking at GA's lips.
Must... fight... urge... to... post... smut...