Gollem and Golem
Steven Pirie-Shepherd
Mikel J. Koven (mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
: Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
: characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
: potential anti-semetic perception? I was devestated to learn Roald Dahl
: was a vehement anti-semite.
Only if Hobbits are precieved as having a base in Judaism..something that
has never ever crossed my mind!, Gollum is named Gollum because that is a
noise he makes in his throat, a swallowing noise. He is based more on a
scottish faerie called 'urisk', which habituates lonely pools and seeks
out the company of wary travellers. But his odd appearance scares them.
--
__________________________________________________
Steven Pirie-Shepherd sr...@galactose.mc.duke.edu
919.684.8986 919.684.8689 FAX
-=pithy phrase=-
Mikel J. Koven
>He is based more on a
> scottish faerie called 'urisk', which habituates lonely pools and seeks
> out the company of wary travellers. But his odd appearance scares them.
Which, and I'm really only speculating here, if we apply traditional
portrayals of Jews in English literature still describes Gollem as the
stereotypical Jew. That's all.
Mikel
Reuven Bell
Mikel J. Koven (mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
: Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
: characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
: potential anti-semetic perception? I was devestated to learn Roald Dahl
: was a vehement anti-semite.
Not unless Jews would consider the Golem to be a typical image of what we all are.
But yeah, it did hurt to find out about Dahl . . .
A. N. Varady
Firstly, this thread is going truly bizarre. The tenuous connections
between all of these ideas: Golem => (sounds like) Tolkein's Golum =>
character similar to anti-semitic sterotype => golem is a jewish concept
=> Tolkein's Golum is an anti-semitic stereotype, clearly shows how
grotesquely perverse this thread has become. Please let us all
mercifully euthenize it.
Secondly, the golem concept in the kabbalah has now conceptual
relationship to Tolkein's Golum. Likewise, Golum has no relationship to
Judaism at all.
Thirdly, I think Mr. Bell didn't mean to say what he actually wrote:
> Not unless Jews would consider the Golem to be a typical image of what we all are.[sic]
( or to paraphrase, that if Jews consider themselves to be like
Tolkein's Golum, then Golum is an anti-semitic portrayal by Tolkein).
Forgive me Reuven, but I think what you meant to say is that the only
relationship one might find between Tolkein's Golum and Judaism is in a
sick stereotype perpetuated by mean spirited ignorant people.
Now if the neo-nazis were handing out Tolkein's Ring trilogy instead of
those flyers then this thread would actually have some relevance. But it
does not.
Sincerely,
Aharon N. Varady
Mr. Rumpus
On 18 Feb 1997, Mikel J. Koven wrote:
> potential anti-semetic perception? I was devestated to learn Roald Dahl
> was a vehement anti-semite.
Where did you get info. on this?
Thanks,
J
Mikel J. Koven
Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
was a vehement anti-semite.
Mikel J. Koven
Department of Folklore
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's Newfoundland, Canada
mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca
Nicole Bland
Roald Dahl was anti-Semitic? How can you tell?!!
*is shocked*
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"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I
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Ben Turner
"Mikel J. Koven" <mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
> Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
> characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
> potential anti-semetic perception?
It's Gollum. And the name seems to be an onomatopoeia for the sound
he makes.
Sometimes it's beneficial to look too deep into author's intended
meanings, but this one seems a bit silly.
> Department of Folklore
<cringe>
B.
"Nothing gets people more riled up than God, politics, and OS's."
Ben Turner . b...@benturner.com
http://www.benturner.com/
Bill Page
Mikel J. Koven (mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
> Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
> characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
> was a vehement anti-semite.
The character in LoTR called Gollum is so named because of the constant
gulping sound he made; he is not a golem. The similarity in pronunciation
is purely a coincidence.
Tolkien was not an antisemite. He wrote favorably about the Jews in his
letters. You can debate endlessly about whether LoTR is racist or sexist,
but I am aware of no evidence of antisemitism anywhere in Tolkien's writing.
You're right about Roald Dahl, though.
--
Bill Page inet: pa...@mc.edu
Mississippi College (601)925-5638
Clinton, MS 39058
Colin J Bunnell
Mikel J. Koven (mko...@plato.ucs.mun.ca) wrote:
: Not to bash Toelkin at all (something I would NEVER do), but doesn't the
: characterization of Gollem, as a greedy deformed hobbit reflect some
: potential anti-semetic perception? I was devestated to learn Roald Dahl
: was a vehement anti-semite.
I think it unlikely--here's why: In the late 1930s,
Tolkien was in negotiation to produce a german translation of
The Hobbit. Towards the end of the negotiation, he was asked
by the german publishing house whether he was Aryan. We don't
have the actual letter that he sent, but we have a draft of
one he considered sending (_The_Letters_of_J.R.R._Tolkien_),
in which he first made fun of the question (deliberately misconstruing
it to be inquiring whether he was descended from the Euro-Asian
tribe that invaded India some centuries back--I don't remember
exactly, but basically he was making the academic's equivalent
of a joke. :-) Then, he got serious and went on to say (paraphrased):
"I take it you are inquiring as to whether or not I am of
Jewish descent. I can only say that I regret that I have none
of the blood of that talented people running through my veins.
I consider your question rude in the extreme, and the racism
of your government makes me ashamed to be of german descent."
Again, I would suggest finding a copy and checking it out yourself--
lots of good stuff in there.
-c
--
Colin Bunnell "If I were a good man,
cbun...@lynx.neu.edu I'd understand the spaces
cbun...@slaw.neu.edu between friends." -PF
Michael K. Richmann
In article Pine.SUN.3.91.970218...@sophia.smith.edu,
Nicole Bland <nbl...@sophia.smith.edu> said:
>
>
>Roald Dahl was anti-Semitic? How can you tell?!!
>
>*is shocked*
Well, aside from all of the people who knew him and said
he was virulently anti-semitic, who could tell? Anyways,
this has what to do with the X-Files?
Reuven Bell
A. N. Varady (star...@ziplink.net) wrote:
: Reuven Bell wrote:
: Thirdly, I think Mr. Bell didn't mean to say what he actually wrote:
: > Not unless Jews would consider the Golem to be a typical image of what we all are.[sic]
: ( or to paraphrase, that if Jews consider themselves to be like
: Tolkein's Golum, then Golum is an anti-semitic portrayal by Tolkein).
: Forgive me Reuven, but I think what you meant to say is that the only
: relationship one might find between Tolkein's Golum and Judaism is in a
: sick stereotype perpetuated by mean spirited ignorant people.
Er, not exactly. What I meant to say is that the Golem is not exactly
an image that every Jew looks to for identification. The Golem is not
something representative of a Jew. My parents never hoped, "maybe, if
we're lucky, Reuven will grow up some day to be a Golem." That would
have been preposterous.
This being the case, if Tolkien were being anti-semitic, he would have
chosen an image far closer to our hearts and idealistic pictures of
ourselves to paint as the evil, slovenly Gollum. The fact that the
Golem is a minor character, related to very little proves that Gollum
is in no way an antisemitic swipe.
How's that?
And yes, this is a very goofy thread.
BILLNVICKY
Allow me to begin by correcting your spelling. It is GOLLUM not gollem.
I believe that is an incredible leap to find anything anti-semetic in the
works of Tolkien.
Steven Pirie-Shepherd
: Mikel
Urisk..SCOTTISH origin
Stereotypical Jew..ENGLISH literature
DIFFERENT cultures totally (Scottish/English).
Urisk legend stems from natural celtic reverence for quiet pools and
places of scenic quiet majesty..NO jewish stereotyping involved at all..Be
very carefull where you tread here --
John J Martin
Ann
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R. Scott Carr
Well, you have to understand that some people can find something
offensive to someone in anything. It's their raison d'etre.
--
Scott Carr
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7503