Navajo isn't a written language
Mr Cydonia
contains a verse from Genesis written in "phonetic Navajo." However, as far as
I know, there's no such thing. Like almost all North American Indian languages,
Navajo never had its own alphabet or syllabary; it was an oral language only.
Oh sure, you can transliterate it into other alphabets like the English
alphabet, but that's hardly the same thing. So, am I wrong, or did the writers
simply use creative license?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Nice work, Harry. I oughtta lift your shield! You just hit 7 innocent
bystanders!"
"I'd hit a hundred innocent bystanders if it got punks like that off the
street!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-V-
>> Like almost all North American Indian languages, Navajo never had its own
>> alphabet or syllabary; it was an oral language only.
Isn't it still possible to do a phonetic representation through symbols for an
oral language such as Navajo?
Just curious :-)
______
-V- " In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."
***I*** -- C.Jung --
X DWBOMXI, RR
Casey McFann
> Like almost all North American Indian languages, Navajo never had its own
> alphabet or syllabary; it was an oral language only.
That's why Albert Hosteen was so important... he was a WWII code talker, and I
think they had to write things down. Okay... i'm not really sure about this, but I
don't see anyone else responding, and if I'm wrong, I'm guaranteed to hear about
it.
Jennifer
~pit pride~
Kim
>That's why Albert Hosteen was so important... he was a WWII code talker,
>and I
>think they had to write things down. Okay... i'm not really sure about this,
>but I
>don't see anyone else responding, and if I'm wrong, I'm guaranteed to hear
>about
>it.
Well, I wouldn't want to let you down. ;-)
Actually I think it is a code- a spoken code - not one that depends on the
symbols that we saw on the rubbing and artifact.
The facts that Navajo was an oral language that was transliterated from the
sounds into written language using Roman characters, and that Navajo was the
basis of a WWII code never broken by the Japanese are correct.
Written Navajo, and especially as it is described as being phonetic, as far as
I know it exists, exists not in symbols but in text like we saw on Mulder's
computer screen in Anasazi.
The word 'Navajo' applied to the symbols on the artifact - and the artifact
having something to do with a King James translation of an ancient Hebrew text
from the book of Genesis -- uh, no. That's where the episode breaks down. I
suspend disbelief here and restrain myself from writing scornful notes to 1013.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.simplenet.com <------ Note New URL
"Did I look adorable?" Mitch Pileggi, Season 4 Gag Reels :-)
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
Kim
>Isn't it still possible to do a phonetic representation through symbols
>for an
>oral language such as Navajo?
Theoretically, any spoken language can have an infinite number of written
representations for words and sounds.
The words I am typing here in English are combinations of (1) ideas and (2)
alphabetical representations of sounds.
The idea 'dog' and even the sounds "d-aw-g' that is the English language for
the beastie I hold in my arms in my picture on my webpage (shameless fishing
for compliments on my doggie) can be represented by symbols, squiggles, boxes,
colors, triangles, splotches, lines, whatever. "Dog" is no more the symbols we
recognize as 'd-o-g' than it is the electrons that are carrying these letters
to your computer screen. "Dog" is an idea. 'D-o-g" is the English language
expression for that idea.
A language is a high form of a code, basically. We just recognize one language,
and call encrypted and altered versions of it a code.
My goodness, I'm philosophical this morning.
QFFI Mag1
date back to Biblical times--and certainly not millions of years, as implied by
the fact that common human-alien ancestry would have to go back that far.
Magician ("longs to see")
Randy Jenning
>Casey said:
[snip for space]
>The facts that Navajo was an oral language that was transliterated from the
>sounds into written language using Roman characters, and that Navajo was
the
>basis of a WWII code never broken by the Japanese are correct.
>
>Written Navajo, and especially as it is described as being phonetic, as far
as
>I know it exists, exists not in symbols but in text like we saw on Mulder's
>computer screen in Anasazi.
>
>The word 'Navajo' applied to the symbols on the artifact - and the artifact
>having something to do with a King James translation of an ancient Hebrew
text
>from the book of Genesis -- uh, no. That's where the episode breaks down.
I
>suspend disbelief here and restrain myself from writing scornful notes to
1013.
[snip for space]
The written form of the Navojo language was developed for WWII code.
However, as I think others have mentioned, the symbols used to represent the
phonetic Navajo could change. The translator saw the pattern to the symbols
and recognized his language.
As far as the bible passage, I have translated Greek and find that my
translations follow closely to translations of others (just don't ask me to
translate now, it's been 10 years since college...). The bible passage I saw
didn't necassarily follow the King James version. The idea that this passage
was on an artifact much older than the Navajo language is not difficult to
accept -- well, given that we're talking about the X-Files here...
Once the translator recognized the pattern he could then extrapolate what
he's learned about the symbols and apply it to a passage that is not in the
Navajo vocabulary. Starting with symbols and sounds he knows, he can then
work to recognize new patterns and fill in the blanks. The character was
more than a translator, but a code maker/breaker. The writers chose the
perfect character for this task.
The fact that he didn't recognize the random letters can indicate that he
has no experience with medical jargon. Evidently he still was able to
transliterate the symbols to english since the doctor, in time, recognized
them ans the mapping of the human genome.
The episode is incorporating the urban mythos that aliens are responsible
for our evolution, and that they have influenced our religions to their
purpose. I use the term mythos not to say it is a false idea, but that it
has been incorporated into our belief system. Just as all stories of faith
are part of a societies mythos.
Wow, I didn't intend to write so much about this, hope you're all still
awake...
-Randy
wherever
journ...@aol.com (Kim) summoned up all their courage and blurted
out:
>V asked:
>
>>Isn't it still possible to do a phonetic representation through symbols
>>for an
>>oral language such as Navajo?
>
>Theoretically, any spoken language can have an infinite number of written
>representations for words and sounds.
>
>The words I am typing here in English are combinations of (1) ideas and (2)
>alphabetical representations of sounds.
>
>The idea 'dog' and even the sounds "d-aw-g' that is the English language for
>the beastie I hold in my arms in my picture on my webpage (shameless fishing
>for compliments on my doggie) can be represented by symbols, squiggles, boxes,
>colors, triangles, splotches, lines, whatever. "Dog" is no more the symbols we
>recognize as 'd-o-g' than it is the electrons that are carrying these letters
>to your computer screen. "Dog" is an idea. 'D-o-g" is the English language
>expression for that idea.
>
>A language is a high form of a code, basically. We just recognize one language,
>and call encrypted and altered versions of it a code.
>
>My goodness, I'm philosophical this morning.
Nice, but an interesting discussion about the relationship between the
signifier and the signified doesn't really answer the original
question. :-)
They sort of sidestepped the issue by saying it was "phonetic Navajo"
but that's kind of BS anyway - any attempts at phonetic Navajo would
have been fairly modern - this is supposed to be an old relic. Why
would the Navajo be trying to phoneticize their language thousands of
years ago? They are trying to insinuate that the aliens gave them the
text for Genesis. In that case, it would have been either in
pictographs, or it would have just been passed down as an oral
tradition.
wherever, at primenet dot com
http://listen.to/thex-files
GABAL OBSSE LLL cog8 Sick!Fruitbat
Randy Jenning
wherever wrote in message ...
[snipped for space]
>They sort of sidestepped the issue by saying it was "phonetic Navajo"
>but that's kind of BS anyway - any attempts at phonetic Navajo would
>have been fairly modern - this is supposed to be an old relic. Why
>would the Navajo be trying to phoneticize their language thousands of
>years ago? They are trying to insinuate that the aliens gave them the
>text for Genesis. In that case, it would have been either in
>pictographs, or it would have just been passed down as an oral
>tradition.
The fact that the navajo language developed to match the patterns found in
the symbols on the relic can also be explained. If aliens influenced our
religions, it is easy to assume that they can influence our language.
In past episodes the X-Files have made the connection of a bond between the
native americans and aliens.
Hey, who knows? It could happen.
-Randy
wherever
I'm definitely still awake. :-)
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:00:11 -0700, that poster we all love, "Randy
Jenning" <ran...@postalzone.com> summoned up all their courage and
blurted out:
>The written form of the Navojo language was developed for WWII code.
>However, as I think others have mentioned, the symbols used to represent the
>phonetic Navajo could change. The translator saw the pattern to the symbols
>and recognized his language.
wherever, at primenet dot com
GJJ
point on the old Delphi official XF area right after "Anasazi" was
aired.
I've been fascinated with codes and secret writing for years so I was
somewhat familiar with the use of Navajo indians in WWII for
communications security purposes.
The major point being this: anytime you provide textual representation
of a code or cipher - you reduce the strength of that code or cipher
i.e. the length of time it will take to decode/decipher the message.
There are various other factors involved such as the time limits to the
message (i.e. if the message concerning an attack is sent a very short
time before the attack - the enemy may not have enough time to
decode/decipher the message to be of use with respect to the attack
although it provides more historical information for breaking the
code/cipher in the future), how many times the message is repeated, how
long the message is, etc. The most common method for attacking
codes/ciphers is frequency analysis (you've probably used this for
cryptograms found in crossword puzzle sections/books). Assuming the
English language is used for the original message - it has been shown
that the letter "e" is the letter most frequently used in English
followed by "t" then "a" and so on. The same goes for two-letter
combinations such as "as", "it", "on", etc. and three-letter and on
combinations. (BTW - keep these definitions in mind: "Cipher - Any
general system for hiding the meaning of a message by replacing each
letter in the original message with another letter." whereas "Code - A
system for hiding the meaning of a message by replacing each word or
phrase in the original message with another character or set of
characters.") So - when you're confronted by a cryptogram in the
crossword puzzle area: these are ciphers so individual letters are
substituted for other letters. Make a count of each letter in the
cryptogram and chances are that the one with the highest count is the
letter "e" and so on. Other clues are punctuation, single standalone
letters (chances are it is "I"), word position, etc. Sometimes the
crossword puzzle people depend on you using frequency analysis to throw
you off by making a message with few "e"s or very short phrases.)
Ok - so back to "Anasazi": here we have a very big file that was
originally in English. It doesn't matter whether this "MJ-12" file was
encoded in a foreign language and written down (or rather, typed into a
disk file): frequency analysis and some of the other tricks I mention
above would make short work of this so it is not unbreakable.
What the 1013 researchers/writers didn't do was really read about the
details of how the WWII Navajo codeTALKERS worked. There is a book that
is presently out on the market now called "The Code Book" by Simon
Singh (1999, Doubleday, ISBN 0-385-49531-5) which has a large section
on the codetalkers (this is the most accessible to everyone but there
is a section in David Kahn's classic "The Codebreakers" and the
long-out-of-print "The Navajo Code Talkers" by Doris A. Paul). Here are
some relevant passages from that book for this discussion:
"...Fully aware of how impenetrable the language was for those outside
the tribe, Johnston {GJJ: Philip - a Caucasian engineer who had acted
as an interpreter for the Navajo and government agents} was struck by
the notion that Navajo, or any other Native American language, could
act as a virtually unbreakable code..."
"...It should also be noted that the Navajo tribal dialect is
completely unintelligible to all other tribes and all other people,
with the possible exception of as many as 28 Americans who have made a
study of the dialect. This dialect is equivalent to a secret code to
the enemy, and admirably suited for rapid, secure communication..."
"...Within eight weeks, the trainee code talkers had learnt the entire
lexicon and alphabet {GJJ: the lexicon was devised to reduce
ambiguities in modern words of war such as "commanding officers" became
"war chiefs", "mortars" were known as "guns that squat" and a special
encoded phonetic alphabet for spelling out difficult words. An example
given is "Pacific" which was spelt out as "pig, ant, cat, ice, fox,
ice, cat" which would then be spoken as "bi-sodih, wol-la-chee, moasi,
tkin, ma-e, tkin, moasi"}, thus obviating the need for codebooks which
might fall into enemy hands. For the Navajos, committing everything to
memory was trivial because TRADITIONALLY THEIR LANGUAGE HAD NO WRITTEN
SCRIPT {GJJ: emphasis mine}, so they were used to memorising their folk
stories and family histories. As William McCabe, one of the trainees,
said "In Navajo everything is in the memory - songs, prayers,
everything. That's the way we were raised..."
So - what does that leave?
1. The 1013 researchers/writers were ok in their use of Albert Hosteen
and his fellow Navajo group with respect to their oral
tradition/memorization of the MJ file in "Paper Clip".
2. The 1013 researchers/writers were also ok in their translation of
the MJ file to a phonetic Navajo "language" in "Anasazi" since that
does exist as created by the US Army.
However
3. The 1013 researchers/writers were wrong in that they confused the
concept of codeTALKERS with a written/printed code and that this
printed/written code was unbreakable (it should also be noted that the
written words of the phonemes in the alphabet and lexicon only came
close to the actual pronunciation of the Navajo words but the spoken
words have subtle inflection, etc.).
Two other excerpts from the above mentioned book:
"...To check the strength of the system, a recording of the
transmissions was given to Navy intelligence, the unit that cracked
Purple, the toughest Japanese cipher. After three weeks of intense
cryptanalysis, the Naval codebreakers were still baffled by the
messages. They called the Navajo language a 'weird succession of
guttural, nasal, tongue-twisting sounds...we couldn't even transcribe
it, much less crack it'..."
"...Eventually, in 1968, the Navajo code was declassified {GJJ: which
weakens the "Anasazi" story line further since anyone obtaining the MJ
file could now easily decode it after 1968}, and the following year the
code talkers held their first reunion. Then, in 1982, they were
honoured when the U.S. Government named 14 August 'National Navajo Code
Talkers Day'. However, the greatest tribute to the work of the Navajo
is the simple fact that their code is one of the very few throughout
history that was never broken. Lieutenant General Seizo Arisue, the
Japanese chief of intelligence, admitted that, although they had broken
the American Air Force code, they had failed to make any impact on the
Navajo code..."
Written script for the Navajo language: no such thing.
Written script for the WWII Navajo codetalkers code: yes but only to
reduce ambiguities for the speakers.
Sorry for the long explanation but I get that way sometimes...
GJJ
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
ACovington
>In last season's finale, the gang finds an artifact which they proclaim
>contains a verse from Genesis written in "phonetic Navajo."
Actually the show mentioned PRE-phonetic Navajo. Which indicates the
language was written in symbols, not in "letters" which can be sounded
out as the English language.
PRE.
Aly
SCULLY: "It has underpants."
MAN: "It *IS* underpants."
Visit the Underpants Archive
http://acovington.home.mindspring.com/underpants.html
Check out Ask Dr. Scully!
http://acovington.home.mindspring.com/drscully/index.html
Deborah
news:vE0R3.3045$tS1....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
snip> The episode is incorporating the urban mythos that aliens are
responsible
> for our evolution, and that they have influenced our religions to their
> purpose. I use the term mythos not to say it is a false idea, but that it
> has been incorporated into our belief system. Just as all stories of faith
> are part of a societies mythos.
>
> Wow, I didn't intend to write so much about this, hope you're all still
> awake...
>
> -Randy
I wonder if they will venture into memes - the idea that thoughts are a kind
of virus that invades us and can take over in an effort to survive.
Deborah
Deborah
--
Deborah
"If I quit now, they win."
--Mulder, FTF
©
GJJ <yzzzguy...@valise.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-004.remarq.com...
Deborah
news:aZcUOPuofNwsPh...@4ax.com...
> On 25 Oct 1999 17:03:22 GMT, that poster we all love,
> journ...@aol.com (Kim) summoned up all their courage and blurted
> out:
>
> but that's kind of BS anyway - any attempts at phonetic Navajo would
> have been fairly modern - this is supposed to be an old relic. Why
> would the Navajo be trying to phoneticize their language thousands of
> years ago? They are trying to insinuate that the aliens gave them the
> text for Genesis. In that case, it would have been either in
> pictographs, or it would have just been passed down as an oral
> tradition.
>
>
Maybe time travel was involved.
Deborah
shannar...@xemplary.com
Of all the Indian tribes, the Cherokees were the only one
with an alphabet and written language.
That's not to say that there are not written representations
now of other tribes' languages. I've no doubt there are.
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:08:30 -0700, GJJ
<yzzzguy...@valise.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>I've been fascinated with codes and secret writing for years so I was
>somewhat familiar with the use of Navajo indians in WWII for
>communications security purposes.
snip
>Sorry for the long explanation but I get that way sometimes...
>
>GJJ
>
>
>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Laurie Haynes
AKA Shannara
Co-archivist Xemplary
http://www.xemplary.com
Xemplary music reviews
http://xemplary.apexhosting.com/xempreview.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe to the xfc fiction list, go to
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/xfc-atxc
To subscribe to the xfc feedback list, go to
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/xfc-fdbk
GJJ
1. If you do a search on "Navajo codetalkers" (I used Yahoo) - you'll
find at least 1/2 a dozen sites associated with this topic. You'll see
photos of the codetalkers memorial and of the special medal given to
the group when they were honored by the country. You'll also find
information on Choctaw codetalkers from WWI and Commanches in WWII.
2. I can speak from experience on encryption since I once worked on a
project which involved this. Since all encryption/decryption in the US
falls under the juridiction of one government agency [one of those ones
with a 3-letter acronym - the NSA (National Security Agency)] - I had a
little interaction with them. Truly spooky stuff...
3. A number of years ago - I became fascinated with the spiritual
aspects of various Native American nations. Even participated in
various ceremonies (nothing like watching an impromptu condor dance in
the middle of the Angeles National Forest nor being in a Chumash
sweatlodge). In my studies - I became really aware of how poorly
they've been treated over the years by the government and was appalled
at some of the things that have happened. The infamous "Trail of Tears"
forced march of the Cherokees is a black mark on human rights in this
country. Just imagine what other interesting things could have been
invented/developed by this group of people had their numbers not been
decimated by "relocation" programs among other things we still do to
the Native Americans (boarding schools, etc.) I'll get off my soapbox
now.
Boondoggler
>
> 2. I can speak from experience on encryption since I once worked on a
> project which involved this. Since all encryption/decryption in the US
> falls under the juridiction of one government agency [one of those ones
> with a 3-letter acronym - the NSA (National Security Agency)] - I had a
> little interaction with them. Truly spooky stuff...
And if you ever find yourself wandering near Ft. Meade, MD with nothing
better to do, you can visit the Cryptological Museum there. I never
did, so I can't tell you what it's like, but it's there.
--
Boondoggler
XFW1114, ggg, MBC
MiGiS7--Let's Frame Fox
Randy Jenning
Deborah wrote in message <7v3654$1bb2$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
[snip quoted text from Randy's post]
>I wonder if they will venture into memes - the idea that thoughts are a
kind
>of virus that invades us and can take over in an effort to survive.
>
>Deborah
That's a new term for me. Memes? Where did this 'idea' come from? It sounds
odd at first, but I can see how someone might view thoughts in that light.