Cathy's "TFWID" review
Catherine J. Blatz
OK, kids, here we go. Lots of ranting follows. You've been warned. :)
(And I promise I'll only post it once this time...)
See you at the bottom of the spoiler thing...
"The Field Where I Died"
Episode 4X05
November 3, 1996
"Mulder...I wouldn't put myself on the line for anybody but you."
- Scully, "Tooms"
"Scully, you are the *only* one I trust." - Mulder, "Wetwired"
"I have returned from the dead to continue with you." - Mulder, in
Scully's dream, "The Blessing Way"
Suppose that, in an upcoming episode of The X-Files, Mulder meets a
fortuneteller. Unlike Clyde Bruckman, who had the irritating shortcoming
of being able to foresee only people's deaths, this one can see
everything and doesn't mind telling. Suppose she tells Mulder that
Samantha actually ran outside after a bunny and was eaten by wolves,
that the bright lights he remembers were due to a low-flying weather
helicopter from WBZ Channel 4. Suppose that she says Cancerman is merely
a paranoid schizophrenic with a lot of money to throw around and a
preference for imagining himself a key link in an international
conspiracy ring, and that her crystal ball shows clearly that all the
"sightings" over the years have been delusions or hoaxes. Suppose that
Scully is skeptical, but Mulder has very good reasons to believe that
the fortune teller is right - and that while no concrete proof is
offered, we the audience are clearly made to believe Mulder's side.
Now imagine what a show, whose premise is that aliens/conspiracy may or
may not exist, will do for its next episode. Answer: Mulder will
probably be back to his usual paranoid self next week, chasing little
grey men in black, kvetching over his sister and trying to find out
where she is. But will we care, now that we know how the story ends?
The creators of The X-Files have clung religiously throughout its run
to one supreme commandment: *Don't give too much away.* After all, we
are on a journey towards a definite goal - exposing the truth - but we
don't want to get there too quickly, nor do we want to know exactly
where we're going. We wouldn't want to know that Samantha is living
happily in New Jersey or that CSM will perish on June 3, 2004. We
*certainly* wouldn't want to know that it's all untrue, that Mulder's
destiny is to be a really, really good manager of a D.C. McDonald's. If
what we thought we'd been heading towards turns out to be completely
false, we'd feel betrayed. We wouldn't care about the journey anymore,
because we'd know it wasn't going anywhere.
With the revelation, in "The Field Where I Died," that Mulder's soul
belongs to someone else, that his destiny and his fate have always been
and always will be locked together with the everlasting soul of a
now-deceased female cult member, much of what made The X-Files special
for me, much of the carefully-built (I thought) tension between Mulder
and Scully, most all of the possibility between them, has been rudely
and irrevocably eliminated. Ironically, they've achieved much the same
result as they feared they would if Mulder and Scully slept together -
the tension gone, the anticipation fizzled. In short, they've given away
the ending, and the ending sucks.
I consider myself a "Relationshipper" if only because I believe that,
in a show that deals with ultimate evil, we must have ultimate love to
counteract it. I don't particularly feel the need to see them screw like
bunnies - what I would like is the chance to believe that Mulder and
Scully's relationship is special and unique, that they are "[bound]
together in a dangerous purpose," that they ultimately trust no one but
each other and that the "magic circle" is for the two of them alone. A
third person further out from the "center" of the M/S relationship would
be fine and interesting. I'd be happy to believe that Skinner was a
constant, a protector or adviser, or that Samantha has been protectee of
Mulder or both of them. But to have Mulder attached more closely to
someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
and light, hot and cold. Lines like those I've quoted above become
meaningless. (As I see it, the writers now have two options with regard
to these lines: don't put them in, in which case the show would become
an emotionless shoot-em-up, or put them in in spite of the fact that we
now know they are empty throwaway lines, and accept that we aren't going
to believe what they say too easily anymore. Screwed either way, it
seems to me.) This relationship, we are told, is not the tightly
spinning core of all the hope in the universe, the ultimate trust, the
purest love. Mulder and Scully are cosmic pals and nothing more, and
Scully is merely a satellite orbiting around Mulder, who spins not with
her but with Sarah/Melissa.
I'm not saying that the only "special" relationship must be a romantic
one. But having another romantic one that eclipses it - not just right
now but forever - destroys the specialness. If this were L.A. Law or
Days of Our Lives or a sitcom, it wouldn't matter so much if Mulder and
Scully were just "OK" together. But this show deals in mythology and
archetypes. It spans the universe, the nature of evil, heroes and
quests, destiny and fate and truth. We simply cannot have two characters
who are not supremely important to each other, or at least to whom
others are more important. The balance is destroyed. Mulder has someone
else who is matters more to him. Someone he loves more deeply, trusts
more completely (if he doesn't, she isn't much of a soulmate) and is
bound to more tightly. Why, then, should he and Scully bother to watch
each other's backs the way they do, to sacrifice themselves every day
for the other? It's as if they're merely going through the motions.
And just to add insult to injury, Dana Scully is revealed to be
cosmically not an equal to Mulder, but a sidekick - not to mention that
her femininity is unceremoniously snatched away from her. Has she been a
man in every life except this one, and if so, what exactly is the
implication here? That a strong, unsentimental woman is abnormal? That
the only reason she shatters female stereotypes is that her natural
state is masculine? This disturbs me more than a little.
There *are* ways they could have pulled this off. They could have made
a good, engaging show about reincarnation, even one that was relevant to
the characters, and still included the wonderful Kristen Cloke (I know
she's important to you, Glen and James, and I like her too, just not in
this context), without spoiling everything they've created. We could
have had Melissa "remember" Mulder in much the same manner, but with a
different relationship. She could have been a sister or a daughter, or
perhaps she was helped by him somehow in each lifetime and remembered
him as a protector (it's a lame position to fill over and over again
throughout eternity, but frankly I'm not nearly invested enough in
Melissa to care). This would have been a more appropriate connection
between Mulder and a one-time guest star whom we'd never laid eyes on
until this episode. In his own regression, Mulder could have had a
glimpse of someone always close to him, someone he yearned for but
couldn't quite identify. Those of us who chose to could have interpreted
this as a painfully obvious reference to Scully, and said that Mulder
couldn't see it because he isn't ready to admit how much she means to
him. Others could have chosen to believe that it was someone we haven't
met yet. Either way, we could still have had an episode full of strong
emotions and a relationship between Melissa and Mulder - but all
possibilities would remain open, and the series as a whole would not be
cheapened.
All right, all right, I'll talk about the rest of the episode. If it
hadn't been for the massacre of the M/S relationship I might have liked
this one a lot. Ironically, there were some interesting moments between
our heroes (though not particularly unifying ones). How satisfying to
have Scully finally confronting Mulder over his obsessiveness, saying
that he doesn't care about saving the lives of the cult members, only
about proving his own theories. And equally as satisfying to have Mulder
tell Scully that she is in denial over what is obviously true. (This is
one of those episodes in which I really wish Mulder wasn't *always*
right.) The stuff about the cult was interesting but shoved to the side
amidst all the reincarnation stuff. I happen to think that if anyone
would be a prime candidate for falling under the spell of a charismatic
cult leader, it'd be Mulder. He has a tendency to be gullible, he'll
always happily accept some more punishment for his sins, and he doesn't
have the need that Scully does to back up every claim that's made with
scientific evidence. I would have loved to have seen a show in which
Mulder was somehow affected by the leader. The fact that cults are able
to draw people in and make them do things that no sane person would do
has always fascinated and disturbed me. However, this issue was left
virtually untouched in this episode.
Other stuff: It was good to be reminded that there are other people who
work at the FBI too. Skinner never seems to have anything more to worry
him than what Mulder and Scully are up to, and I was glad to see him
being the "boss" to more than one pair of partners. I thought Scully was
unnecessarily harsh when she interrupted Mulder's soul-searching session
to ask him if he saw bunkers or not. Kristen Cloke was wonderful, as I
said - she changed personalities like socks, and very convincingly too.
I still don't follow the justification, other than Mulder's memories,
for the explanation why she was not a multiple personality. How did all
her past lives get to know about each other, if that's what they were?
I'm not sure about the identical beginning and ending of the show - it
was neat, but I don't quite understand what the point was. In any case,
they certainly could have used the time to fill in some of the plot
details.
Which brings me to another point: "TFWID" doesn't have room for both an
action-packed plot about cults *and* the unveiling of Mulder's entire
cosmic history up to this point. This extraordinarily earth-shattering
and important event was the B-plot in a one-part episode in the middle
of the season. Mulder's and Scully's lives have been changed
irrevocably, but it all came about with too little effort. I find it
hard to believe that Mulder could be hypnotized *so* quickly and taken
back *so* easily to his past lives. Why is it such a big mystery if it's
so accessible? The entire issue of reincarnation existing and Mulder
discovering his past lives was treated much too casually, David's
histrionics notwithstanding.
Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by the
creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't shake,
of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how much this
will upset some of the fans. I know Carter has said that he feels the
show doesn't belong to him anymore, and also that he is disturbed by the
notion that some fans would like to see Mulder and Scully together,
because this is not something he wants to do. I certainly hope that this
is not a kneejerk attempt to regain control, a demonstration of power
through the orchestration of a sweeping change that no one likes and
that will affect the rest of the series, whether anyone wants it to or
not. Come on, Chris. It's still your show. There's no need to backlash
against us by snatching away something that we enjoy speculating about.
My only comfort in all of this is that the characters change more from
writer to writer than from plot development to plot development. Maybe
no one will remember this in a few weeks. That's not exactly good, as it
doesn't make any sense, but it's better than accepting that the show has
been ruined.
I will not stop watching The X-Files. I'll still enjoy it, I'll still
tape it, I'll still post about it. But, at least for the moment, I won't
love it quite as much as I did. The magic is gone. Maybe I should stab
it through the ear.
I cannot rate this episode. If I saw it in a movie theater, I would
perhaps give it a four out of five. But since it has basically destroyed
what I saw as the central theme of a show very dear to my heart, I feel
more inclined to give it a zero. I guess you could call that a two, but
I'd rather say that it gets one question mark, and leave it at that.
Cathy
--
Catherine J. Blatz
============================================================
Mulder: "That's a pretty extreme hunch."
Scully: "I seem to recall you having some pretty extreme hunches."
Mulder: "I never have."
- "Aubrey"
============================================================
cja...@ix.netcom.com
The Fire and the Rose
Cathy writes (among much else):
> But to have Mulder attached more closely to
> someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
> discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
> and light, hot and cold.
Excellent, excellent point. I think this is the heart of it.
> And just to add insult to injury, Dana Scully is revealed to be
> cosmically not an equal to Mulder, but a sidekick - not to mention that
> her femininity is unceremoniously snatched away from her. Has she been a
> man in every life except this one, and if so, what exactly is the
> implication here? That a strong, unsentimental woman is abnormal? That
> the only reason she shatters female stereotypes is that her natural
> state is masculine? This disturbs me more than a little.
This I don't see. Scully was *superior* to Mulder in both those lives.
And Mulder was a woman in one of his past lives--I think all they were
saying was that gender was mutable. I'm sure Scully has been a woman in
past lives, too.
> I happen to think that if anyone
> would be a prime candidate for falling under the spell of a charismatic
> cult leader, it'd be Mulder. He has a tendency to be gullible, he'll
> always happily accept some more punishment for his sins, and he doesn't
> have the need that Scully does to back up every claim that's made with
> scientific evidence. I would have loved to have seen a show in which
> Mulder was somehow affected by the leader. The fact that cults are able
> to draw people in and make them do things that no sane person would do
> has always fascinated and disturbed me. However, this issue was left
> virtually untouched in this episode.
You're right, that's fascinating.
> I find it
> hard to believe that Mulder could be hypnotized *so* quickly and taken
> back *so* easily to his past lives. Why is it such a big mystery if it's
> so accessible? The entire issue of reincarnation existing and Mulder
> discovering his past lives was treated much too casually, David's
> histrionics notwithstanding.
Well, Mulder's been hypnotized before; it's easier every time. And hasn't
reicarnation been dealt with before?
As for Melissa, I think the going explanation is that she *did* have
multiple-personality disorder, but that many of the personalites came from
past lives.
> Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by the
> creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
> relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't shake,
> of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how much this
> will upset some of the fans.
I think you're paranoid. (congratulations! one step closer to our heroes!)
> My only comfort in all of this is that the characters change more from
> writer to writer than from plot development to plot development. Maybe
> no one will remember this in a few weeks. That's not exactly good, as it
> doesn't make any sense, but it's better than accepting that the show has
> been ruined.
>
> I will not stop watching The X-Files. I'll still enjoy it, I'll still
> tape it, I'll still post about it. But, at least for the moment, I won't
> love it quite as much as I did. The magic is gone. Maybe I should stab
> it through the ear.
Wait, wait! Don't do it! There are possiblities you're not considering!
Two choices are to ignore this episode or consider 'shipper hope dead.
Two more are to decide that Mulder made it all (or parts of it) all up, or
to decide that souls can shuffle around and Melissa won't always be his
soulmate. Of course, all of those explanations contradict the spirit of
the show. But I think there's one that doesn't, which is based on the
progressive nature of reincarnation.
So Scully and Mulder have always been friends, and Mulder has had this
other love that he keeps losing. It's not necessary to assume that this
is the role he's *always* destined to play. This isn't the
souls-shuffle-around-every-time argument; I don't think S&M have been
soulmates in the past. But the point of reincarnation is to work out
issues, to improve, to *change*. It seems obvious to me that over time, a
new soul could join the group of "eternally bound" souls. If that's true,
souls could also leave the group; or within the group, their relationships
could change.
Melissa and Mulder have been seeing less and less of each other; in this
life they meet only in passing. I'm not saying they won't always have a
love for each other. But can Mulder never find love in this life? Never
true love? Is love a one-shot deal? Haven't we all loved--really
loved--someone, only to lose them, and later found to our own surprise
that we could actually love someone else too? It's happened to me.
It's sort of a fate vs. free will thing. Mulder has been "waiting for"
Melissa, choosing to be with her in all his lives. She didn't make the
same choice this time around. Maybe the horrible ends they keep coming to
means they have something to work out--something to change. It doesn't
necessarily mean that Scully should be the love of Mulder's life/lives,
but it does mean that there's no ultimate fate ruling it out. There's no
point in going through life after life if the outcome is preordained.
I don't think this goes against the spirit of the episode. It was tragic,
it was about a great love lost. But it wasn't about the future. Scully
is still the one Mulder is most attached to, and all possibilities are
open.
(What it does mean, I think, is that if S&M do fall in love in this life,
the next life, which will presumably also contain Melissa, will be a
touchy one! But Melissa obviously has many issues of her own to work
out. Maybe she was drawn into the cult by a need to find another bond as
strong as hers with Mulder. In fact, all around, she seems less attached
to M than he does to her. Maybe she'd welcome it if he stopped clinging
to her through eternity.)
--The Fire and the Rose
--
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one. --T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"
Cassandra
>
> With the revelation, in "The Field Where I Died," that Mulder's soul
> belongs to someone else, that his destiny and his fate have always been
> and always will be locked together with the everlasting soul of a
> now-deceased female cult member, much of what made The X-Files special
> for me, much of the carefully-built (I thought) tension between Mulder
> and Scully, most all of the possibility between them, has been rudely
> and irrevocably eliminated. Ironically, they've achieved much the same
> result as they feared they would if Mulder and Scully slept together -
> the tension gone, the anticipation fizzled. In short, they've given away
> the ending, and the ending sucks.
>
><insightful comments snipped>
>
> And just to add insult to injury, Dana Scully is revealed to be
> cosmically not an equal to Mulder, but a sidekick - not to mention that
> her femininity is unceremoniously snatched away from her. Has she been a
> man in every life except this one, and if so, what exactly is the
> implication here? That a strong, unsentimental woman is abnormal? That
> the only reason she shatters female stereotypes is that her natural
> state is masculine? This disturbs me more than a little.
>
> <more snipping>
> I find it
> hard to believe that Mulder could be hypnotized *so* quickly and taken
> back *so* easily to his past lives. Why is it such a big mystery if it's
> so accessible? The entire issue of reincarnation existing and Mulder
> discovering his past lives was treated much too casually, David's
> histrionics notwithstanding.
>
> Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by the
> creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
> relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't shake,
> of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how much this
> will upset some of the fans.
>
Cathy,
Bravo! You just completely *nailed* so much of what I had a problem with
with this episode! I think *we* must be soul-mates! <g,d&r>
While I don't think this ep firmly closed the door on a romantic
relationship for M&S (for all eternity, no less!) -- there were too many
plot holes & inconsistencies for that -- I can't shake the nagging feeling
that that was precisely their intention. If so (and I truly hope it isn't,
but, well, I'm a cynic, so I have to entertain the possibility), it speaks
to me of an overriding, arrogant contempt for the fans. Not to say, of
course, that all or even most fans want M&S to "get together", but I'd say
a significant number enjoy the *possibility* of it occurring. Even if they
had absolutely no intention of *ever* putting the two together
romantically, trying to cut off all possibility of it just boggles my
mind, frankly. I cannot see how it could be of *any* possible benefit to
intentionally throw away a whole avenue of development or risk alienating
a group of fans. Makes no sense to me in creative, PR or business terms.
Seems to me like a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your
face, to resort to a cliche. For a show so dedicated to making *anything*
possible, it certainly seemed to go out of its way to imply that there was
*one thing* that was impossible. Very disillusioning.
You're right, it leeches away some of the magic from that "Magic Circle"
you spoke of by inserting a lot more characters/souls into it; even if
Melissa (and the use of that particular name with all its connotations is
another annoyance!) is dead, the memory is there, which IMHO can be just
as damaging. Though, as you say, they do tend to play roulette with the
characterizations.
I also found the narrative of the hypnotic regressions a horribly facile
device for getting across the information they wanted to -- what,
undergoing hypnotic regression suddenly gives one all the Secrets of Fate
& Why We're All Here? I just can't buy that. Hypnotists would've taken
advantage of *that* long ago! <g> It was *way* too easy to bring that to
the surface. Now, I know they only have so much time on an hour-long show,
but it really lessens the suspension of disbelief that is so necessary to
this show. IMHO, if they're going to tackle a grand & thought-provoking
theme like reincarnation, they should realize that it's going to be
scrutinized & pay more attention to the script & what it implies. X-Philes
tend to notice things. <g>
If I weren't a Relationshipper, I do think I would've enjoyed the ep more
-- until I started thinking about it. Once I started thinking about
everything that was wrong with it -- the plot holes, the easy answers to
plot development, the contrivances to build emotion and "gee whiz"
moments, the convenient buffoonery of the FBI & ATF -- it really started
to fall apart. Now, if I could think of it as simply a hypnosis-couched
journey through Mulder's psyche, I would actually think it rather
brilliant; but trying to take it literally (as I *think* we're supposed
to) makes the quality & resonance of the script drop to almost nothing.
The great acting, music & cinematography just can't save it for me from a
morass of treacle and Emmy-reel moments.
Anyway, enough of my rant in response. Thanks for the post!
Alyssa Fernandez
Catherine J. Blatz provided several pivotal Mulder/Scully quotes
("You're the ONLY one I trust," etc.) and then wrote:
> I consider myself a "Relationshipper" if only because I believe that,
> in a show that deals with ultimate evil, we must have ultimate love to
> counteract it...(snipped)But to have Mulder attached more closely to
> someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
> discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
> and light, hot and cold. Lines like those I've quoted above become
> meaningless.
I also feel that--even if their relationship NEVER crosses the line from
UST into RST--Mulder and Scully ought to share a special bond. Part of
the X-Files appeal is that it is the ultimate "You and me against the
world" story--or, in this case, "You and me against the WHOLE DAMN
UNIVERSE."
But why are you so willing to reject quotes from three different
episodes and a consistent theme of building trust between M&S, for the
sake one character in one episode? I still do not feel that Scully's
past-life roles were defined clearly enough in TFWID to preclude her
being the yin to Mulder's yang. Even had Melissa not died, her role in
Mulder's present life was so minimal and so tenuous that it casts the
significance of those previous lives into question.
So don't despair, fellow UST lovers. The truth is STILL out there,
somewhere yet to be discovered...
JS Michel
Alyssa Fernandez wrote:
>
> Catherine J. Blatz provided several pivotal Mulder/Scully quotes
> ("You're the ONLY one I trust," etc.) and then wrote:
>
> > in a show that deals with ultimate evil, we must have ultimate love to
> > someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
> > discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
> > and light, hot and cold. Lines like those I've quoted above become
> > meaningless.
<snip>
>
> But why are you so willing to reject quotes from three different
> episodes and a consistent theme of building trust between M&S, for the
> sake one character in one episode? I still do not feel that Scully's
> past-life roles were defined clearly enough in TFWID to preclude her
> being the yin to Mulder's yang. Even had Melissa not died, her role in
> Mulder's present life was so minimal and so tenuous that it casts the
> significance of those previous lives into question.
I think that's a really good point. Imagine that Melissa had lived.
What would've happened...? Mulder would've kept trying to convince
her that they're soulmates, and either:
a) She'd have kept telling him she didn't believe him, just as she did
in the show (the fact that Melissa *didn't* recognize him is a really
important point, I think). Eventually she'd tell him to buzz off
and leave her alone, and even Mulder might have to admit that maybe
they weren't meant to be together, unless he could come up with a good
explanation as to why his soulmate would tell him to take a hike.
b) Mulder would have convinced her that they were soulmates, which
might not have been difficult to do given how fragile and messed
up she was. She might not even have really believed it, but it
might sound like a pretty good way out of her present situation.
And then what. Does anybody REALLY think that those two could
work anything out? This relationship would be doomed from the
start, and it wouldn't be long before everything went to pieces
and Mulder was left alone again. Again, I think he'd probably
have to admit that he'd made a mistake about the soulmates
thing; I mean, if they were meant to be together they'd have
been able to make it work, right? And I just don't see it
happening; Mulder is carrying around way too much emotional
baggage, and having Melissa in his life wouldn't have reduced
it but rather just made things worse. The idea that finding
his soulmate would magically make everything better is SO
consistent with Mulder's behaviour (just like he thinks finding
Samantha will) and it would be bound to fail. Just like
women who think things would be so much better if their cheating
boyfriends would just marry them, Mulder would be setting himself
up for a huge let-down.
In a way, I think it might have been interesting to see her live
and accept Mulder's idea of soulmates, giving Mulder a pseudo-
girlfriend for a few episodes while he tried to make things work
and failed, eventually coming to the conclusion that he'd been
wrong and had been seeing only what he wanted to see. Maybe this
would have satisfied the 'shippers more than the ending of this
episode -- Hey, satisfying 'shippers by giving Mulder a girlfriend!
Now there's an X-Files! ;)
-- JS --
Maggie Helwig/Ken Simons
"Catherine J. Blatz" <cja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>With the revelation, in "The Field Where I Died," that Mulder's soul
>belongs to someone else, that his destiny and his fate have always been
>and always will be locked together with the everlasting soul of a
>now-deceased female cult member, much of what made The X-Files special
>for me, much of the carefully-built (I thought) tension between Mulder
>and Scully, most all of the possibility between them, has been rudely
>and irrevocably eliminated.<snip> what I would like is the chance to believe that Mulder and
>Scully's relationship is special and unique, that they are "[bound]
>together in a dangerous purpose," that they ultimately trust no one but
>each other and that the "magic circle" is for the two of them alone<snip> to have Mulder attached more closely to
>someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
>discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
>and light, hot and cold. Lines like those I've quoted above become
>meaningless. <snip> Mulder and Scully are cosmic pals and nothing more, and
>Scully is merely a satellite orbiting around Mulder, who spins not with
>her but with Sarah/Melissa.
>I'm not saying that the only "special" relationship must be a romantic
>one. But having another romantic one that eclipses it - not just right
>now but forever - destroys the specialness. <snip>. We simply cannot have two characters
>who are not supremely important to each other, or at least to whom
>others are more important. The balance is destroyed. Mulder has someone
>else who is matters more to him. Someone he loves more deeply, trusts
>more completely (if he doesn't, she isn't much of a soulmate) and is
>bound to more tightly.
Given that TFWID is about (alleged) past lives, could I inject a note
of historical perspective here? The idea of ONE person who is the
focus of romantic feelings, the primary object of emotional
investment, the most trusted partner and colleague, *and* a sexual
*and* marriage (or marriage-like-relationship) partner is a peculiarly
modern one. (Arguably it is also the source of much tension in
contemporary relationships, but that's a side issue). The idea that
unless all these roles are filled by one person, they are a) not a
soul mate and b) not important, is even less historically sustainable.
There are older texts or time periods where you find something like
the idea of a "soul mate", but they are not expected to fill ALL these
roles. In Plato, for instance, you find the idea of a person who is
the focus of primary emotional investment and of sexual desire, and
who is a colleague/partner. This person may _or may not_ be someone
with whom you are involved in an actual sexual relationship; it is
most certainly not your spouse/marriage partner. In only one part of
Plato's writings is this presented as a relationship that happens with
only one person ever in your life. That one case is a story narrated
by Aristophanes (a comedian), and a story whose primary purpose is
actually to explain the phenomenon of differing sexual orientations
and why male homosexuals are the best.
In medieval France, where romantic love was, arguably, invented, you
had the Lady, who was again the subject of emotional investment and
sexual desire, but very specifically NOT someone you could be in a
sexual or marriage relationship with (who was, of necessity, married
to someone else), and who was very certainly not a colleague or
partner or trusted other.
In Victorian England, you had same-sex friendships which were
profoundly emotionally invested but not sexual, co-existing alongside
marriages which were also sexual partnerships but often very low on
emotional involvement and certainly very low on trust and partnership.
Where would Mulder and Scully and Melissa fit into these dynamics,
then, or into the many other arrangements of emotional and sexual and
professional and dynastic concern that have existed around the world
and throughout human history? Why is Melissa necessarily the most
important person in all Mulder's lives because he was married to her
twice? How do you sort the respective importance of marriage, sex,
romance, trust and work? Mulder could easily have felt romantic love
for Melissa in several lifetimes but never trusted her one bit, or
ever, over several lives, had a real conversation with her.
People are feeling distress (among those who are feeling distress,
which is not everyone) because of this modern assumption that one
person MUST fill all these roles or be of secondary importance or at
least not a "real soul mate". It _could_ be argued that there is an
inherent tension in Mulder's current life because he (like most of us
contemporary people) also believes this, and while the important roles
in his life have been filled by two (or more) people in past lives it
is taken for granted that they should be filled by only one person in
this life ... whatever. I'm just trying to point out that we're
superimposing some very contemporary contents on historical events
here.
Personally I think the past lives were all confabulation, so it is
Mulder himself who is superimposing contemporary assumptions on
historical material, but that's a whole different issue.
maggie h
Cassandra
In article <3286F0...@mindspring.com>, cam...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Let's say, that we had to make up a reason for Mulder to suddenly
> somehow find the answers to the questions that were nagging, such as
> where they came from... why was that underground barrack gone
> unnoticed... etecera, etecera. Being that there were only 20 minutes
> left (minus the commerical time), how would you neatly explain all that?
>
> The quick way would be the hypnotic regression session. Probably not
> too plausible, but what else can you begin to explain what was going on.
> BUT on the other hand, it is POSSIBLE through hypnotic regressions, you
> can find some fantastic answers.
>
That's part of what troubles me. All those nagging questions, both mundane
and spiritual, apparently answered by one intense period of hypnotic
regression? It's too darn convenient, too easy, too
tie-it-up-with-a-big-red-bow. If they couldn't believably explain what was
going on within the time constraints, then they should've compensated some
other way: pare back the scope of the questions, make it a two-parter,
leave some more things unanswered (which they've been know to do once or
twice before ;) ). Not contrive to come up with some all-revealing device
to fit it all together.
The show is at its best when it makes the implausible plausible by keeping
it grounded within the realm of possibility; I thought this episode
strayed outside that realm. Thus it became, for me, implausible. IMO, they
threw out all notion of rationality: M&S's, as well as Skinner's,
involvement is weak at best; the FBI & ATF are buffoonish so that they
can't get in the way of the plot by actually *accomplishing* anything;
Scully finds the pictures & ledgers she needs practically lying out
waiting for her at 4 in the morning; the ever-skeptical and perceptive
Scully doesn't notice all the problems in the regressions or how they're
brought about; and, of course, all the Temple members & Melissa die in the
end so that they can't investigate further. I suspend disbelief for this
show a lot, but there's only so much you can suspend. I felt this ep was
built on just too many contrivances, which made it collapse for me.
< The best part though was the beginning and the end. I just wish
somebody could type the whole speech in.>
Just in case you haven't read this elsewhere, the speech is part of the
poem "Paracelsus" by Robert Browning. It's a massively long poem, 400
lines or so.
<In fact, I thought the whole episode was gonna be about FM's sis!>
Now, that might have really been intriguing! <g>
Cassandra
--
"Sometimes I think we buy a ticket to Gilbert & Sullivan, and when we go into the theater, we find the play is by Harold Pinter." -- Bill Moyers
catherine yronwode
Cassandra cass...@sprynet.com wrote:
>
> Cathy J. Blatz cja...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > With the revelation, in "The Field Where I Died," that Mulder's soul
> > belongs to someone else, that his destiny and his fate have always
> > been and always will be locked together with the everlasting soul of
> > a now-deceased female cult member, much of what made The X-Files
> > special for me, much of the carefully-built (I thought) tension
> > between Mulder and Scully, most all of the possibility between them,
> > has been rudely and irrevocably eliminated. Ironically, they've
> > achieved much the same result as they feared they would if Mulder
> > and Scully slept together - the tension gone, the anticipation
> > fizzled. In short, they've given away the ending, and the ending
> > sucks.
> >
> ><insightful comments snipped>
> >
> > the creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
> > relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't
> > shake, of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how
> > much this will upset some of the fans.
>
> with with this episode! I think *we* must be soul-mates! <g,d&r>
>
> While I don't think this ep firmly closed the door on a romantic
> relationship for M&S (for all eternity, no less!) -- there were too
> many plot holes & inconsistencies for that -- I can't shake the
> nagging feeling that that was precisely their intention. If so (and I
> truly hope it isn't, but, well, I'm a cynic, so I have to entertain
> the possibility), it speaks to me of an overriding, arrogant contempt
> for the fans. Not to say, of course, that all or even most fans want
> M&S to "get together", but I'd say a significant number enjoy the *
> possibility* of it occurring. Even if they had absolutely no intention
> of *ever* putting the two together romantically, trying to cut off all
> possibility of it just boggles my mind, frankly. I cannot see how it
> could be of *any* possible benefit to intentionally throw away a whole
> avenue of development or risk alienating a group of fans. Makes no
> sense to me in creative, PR or business terms. Seems to me like a
> classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face, to resort to
> a cliche. For a show so dedicated to making *anything* possible, it
> certainly seemed to go out of its way to imply that there was
> *one thing* that was impossible. Very disillusioning.
I want to thank both Cathy for her long, well-written piece, and
Cassandra for her comments. My snippage is for bandwidth purposes only.
I had felt (and posted) that this episode was a continuity editor's
nightmare, that sloppy reserach and poor follow-through had resulted in
an episode that was not only emotionally unsatisfying, but also
logically impossible. It had never occurrred to me that CC and M&W might
have been DELIBERATELY closing the door on the "tease" of UST as a slap
at the "shipper" fans. But, once you two put that idea in my head, it
found resonsances. CC has been pretty frank in interviews about how the
"shippers" are on his case. And we have seen posts avbout how they have
mobbed him at conventions. Also, taking a look at his other show,
Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that he is more than a little
interested in the dismemberment of women and that he views the hero as
an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a spark of
pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
In other words, given CC's personal comments about X-Files and X-Files
fandom and his track record with the dismal Millennium series, it is not
so impossible to hypothesize that "The Field Where I ZDied" was indeed a
deliberate attempt to head off the shippers -- and that in writing the
series' ending in words ten feet high, CC was willing to rid himself of
a great part of his audience, just to have it his way.
He wins. We lose.
That is hardly a mature way to run a commerical television series -- and
the next move will be written in the ratings, i suspect.
I wacthed my very last Millenium on Friday. I just can't take the
gloomy, deprressing, scary worldview it promulgates.
I am still watching X-Files, but with a leaden heart. I am not a
relationshipper, i am just someone who likes unresolved sexual tension
and wanted to believe that in the end these emotionally crippled
characters would affirm their value to one another in a sexual way. If
Chris Carter won't provide me with that kind of drama, then i will have
to look elsewhere. It's a commerical world, the world of popular
culture, and my dollar is what they are bidding for. Carter may win his
war against "shipper" fans (among whom i do NOT number myself) but the
collateral damage to the series is too great.
catherine yronwode * mailto:c...@luckymojo.com * http://www.luckymojo.com
* Lucky W Amulet Archive * The Sacred Landscape * Karezza and Tantra *
for discussions about folkloric magic, ask your ISP for news:alt.lucky.w
Cassandra
> People are feeling distress (among those who are feeling distress,
> which is not everyone) because of this modern assumption that one
> person MUST fill all these roles or be of secondary importance or at
> least not a "real soul mate". It _could_ be argued that there is an
> inherent tension in Mulder's current life because he (like most of us
> contemporary people) also believes this, and while the important roles
> in his life have been filled by two (or more) people in past lives it
> is taken for granted that they should be filled by only one person in
> this life ... whatever. I'm just trying to point out that we're
> superimposing some very contemporary contents on historical events
> here.
>
But if our souls have been coming back again & again to learn throughout
history, doesn't this kind of imply that all those dead historical people
had the wrong idea & we've only recently wised up on this score? <vb ;)>
Unless of course we're all regressing ... which I don't necessarily find
hard to believe!
camgib
Well...
Here's my 2 cents (same price, in despite of inflation!):
>I also found the narrative of the hypnotic regressions a horribly facile
>device for getting across the information they wanted to -- what,
>undergoing hypnotic regression suddenly gives one all the Secrets of Fate
>& Why We're All Here? I just can't buy that. Hypnotists would've taken
>advantage of *that* long ago! <g> It was *way* too easy to bring that to
>the surface. Now, I know they only have so much time on an hour-long show,
>but it really lessens the suspension of disbelief that is so necessary to
>this show. IMHO, if they're going to tackle a grand & thought-provoking
>theme like reincarnation, they should realize that it's going to be
>scrutinized & pay more attention to the script & what it implies. X-Philes
>tend to notice things. <g>
Well. Yes it was sudden and all... and of course given the fact this is
a hour-long show, I betcha it took them a while to figure out what's to
be cut, what's to be left in, and what's to take care of. I also betcha
it was probably the most difficult episode the editors had ever to deal
with.
Lemme give you another perspective and see if you can arrive at the
understanding that I was at:
Let's say, that we had to make up a reason for Mulder to suddenly
somehow find the answers to the questions that were nagging, such as
where they came from... why was that underground barrack gone
unnoticed... etecera, etecera. Being that there were only 20 minutes
left (minus the commerical time), how would you neatly explain all that?
The quick way would be the hypnotic regression session. Probably not
too plausible, but what else can you begin to explain what was going on.
BUT on the other hand, it is POSSIBLE through hypnotic regressions, you
can find some fantastic answers.
The troubling part seems to be the speed in which this was explained
away. I wasn't really convinced that DD was actually crying. I know he
was trying to portray FM as a guy breaking down, crying as part of the
script. But it just didn't seem natural for him. And it was all sudden,
the whole scene, after what had gone on before with the woman they were
extensively interviewing into the wee hours of the morning. (Ironically,
I am typing this in the wee hours of the morning as well. It's 4:17 am.)
I was also thinking: this story could've been a two-parter, but I have a
feeling they didn't have enough material to make it more than a part and
a half. That's when the editing job went south.
The best part though was the beginning and the end. I just wish
somebody could type the whole speech in. I didn't have it on tape. I had
a feeling the last line was referring to the search for Samatha Mulder.
In fact, I thought the whole episode was gonna be about FM's sis!
If I'm right, then the search for SM would be intensified during the
course of this particular season. And I hope so! There's still so much
to find out... so many questions needing answers....
cam gib
sbal...@aol.com
In article <328658...@luckymojo.com>, catherine yronwode
<c...@luckymojo.com> writes:
>I am still watching X-Files, but with a leaden heart. I am not a
>relationshipper, i am just someone who likes unresolved sexual tension
>and wanted to believe that in the end these emotionally crippled
>characters would affirm their value to one another in a sexual way.
If that's not a relationshipper viewpoint - then what is?
I also like the UST (although I don't particularly miss it when it isn't
there) but I don't think the resolution of this show should have anything
to do with a sexual affirmation between Mulder and Scully.
Sandra Ballasch
Nick Pedicini
>Catherine J. Blatz <cja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<32843F...@ix.netcom.com>...
> OK, kids, here we go. Lots of ranting follows. You've been warned. :)
> Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by the
> creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
> relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't shake,
> of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how much this
> will upset some of the fans.
Leaving aside the fact I think that most of the disaffection that people
feel for this ep stems from a poorly plotted script and a beautiful but
sloppy romantic idea ham-handedly grafted onto the XFs universe......(sorry
folks, but if you want to see some really lousy continuity, check out the
a-borning Dark Skies.) Bear in mind that Carter did not put UST in to the
original equation. He refused to cast the Fox-requested blonde bombshell
(think of the UST *that* would have raised!) He went, instead, for the
cool, intellectual, no-nonsense Anderson. UST is, for him, a weed growing
in his XF garden. While I think there is a power play going on here, I
don't think anybody is laughing. Do you like Shakespeare's Lear? or
Garrick's? Millennium has no possibility of UST. What does that tell you?
It's his show, kids.
NJP
> My only comfort in all of this is that the characters change more from
> writer to writer than from plot development to plot development. Maybe
> no one will remember this in a few weeks. That's not exactly good, as it
> doesn't make any sense, but it's better than accepting that the show has
> been ruined.
In this, I think you are right. It won't be long before we have another
"conversation on the (you supply place)" and all this reincarnation crap
will be written off as a "bad ep."
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
In <19961111011...@ladder01.news.aol.com> mis...@aol.com
writes:
> Scully and Mulder are also apparently eternally
>fated to be spiritually close to each other, and to die together
>fighting for what they believe.
As soon as I get up off the floor and start breathing
again, Mishka, I'll thank you and compliment you on this interesting
evaluation.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
mis...@aol.com
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Great review, Cathy! You explained the 'shipper disappointment in TFWID
very well. Although I'm not a 'shipper, and this was probably my favorite
ep so far this year, I can see your point of view.
You wrote, about CC not wanting to "show us too much":
<SNIP>
>we
>are on a journey towards a definite goal - exposing the truth - but we
>don't want to get there too quickly, nor do we want to know exactly
>where we're going. We wouldn't want to know that Samantha is living
>happily in New Jersey or that CSM will perish on June 3, 2004. We
>*certainly* wouldn't want to know that it's all untrue, that Mulder's
>destiny is to be a really, really good manager of a D.C. McDonald's.
I think you have some good plot ideas for the series finale here.
CC, are you listening <g>? I can see it now...
Mulder (wearing a paper hat and plastic name tag reading "Spooky"):
Would you like that Super Sized, sir?
Scully (flipping burgers on the grill): Muuulderrr! I need your help!!!
*********
On to your disappointment...
<snip>
>
>I consider myself a "Relationshipper" if only because I believe that,
>in a show that deals with ultimate evil, we must have ultimate love to
>counteract it.
<snip>
But to have Mulder attached more closely to
>someone else than he is to Scully simply doesn't gel. It feels
>discordant, off-balance. It's just *wrong*. Gone is yin and yang, dark
>and light, hot and cold.
<snip>
>This relationship, we are told, is not the tightly
>spinning core of all the hope in the universe, the ultimate trust, the
>purest love. Mulder and Scully are cosmic pals and nothing more, and
>Scully is merely a satellite orbiting around Mulder, who spins not with
>her but with Sarah/Melissa.
>
>I'm not saying that the only "special" relationship must be a romantic
>one. But having another romantic one that eclipses it - not just right
>now but forever - destroys the specialness. If this were L.A. Law or
>Days of Our Lives or a sitcom, it wouldn't matter so much if Mulder and
>Scully were just "OK" together. But this show deals in mythology and
>archetypes. It spans the universe, the nature of evil, heroes and
>quests, destiny and fate and truth. We simply cannot have two characters
>who are not supremely important to each other, or at least to whom
>others are more important. The balance is destroyed. Mulder has someone
>else who is matters more to him. Someone he loves more deeply, trusts
>more completely (if he doesn't, she isn't much of a soulmate) and is
>bound to more tightly. Why, then, should he and Scully bother to watch
>each other's backs the way they do, to sacrifice themselves every day
>for the other? It's as if they're merely going through the motions.
>
>And just to add insult to injury, Dana Scully is revealed to be
>cosmically not an equal to Mulder, but a sidekick - not to mention that
>her femininity is unceremoniously snatched away from her.
I have to take issue with this "sidekick" thing I've been reading
regarding Scully's reported past lives with Mulder. To me, the way Mulder
saw her in their supposed past lives was much more than as a sidekick. In
one she was his sargeant and another his father. Both roles are much more
than sidekicks. They're the ultimate protectorants, often the most
important people in someone's life. And the way Mulder talked about them
in his regression, he seemed like they were extremely important to him,
possibly as important to him as Melissa's incarnations, but I admit, in a
different way.
Am I the only one who believes platonic relationships with special people
in our lives can be as strong, even stronger, than a relationship between
lovers? People who have managed to find "their one true love" are very
fortunate; I think very few people ever do find that romantic soulmate.
But to have a very close relationship with someone on a platonic level,
IMO, is just as special and just as rare.
To me, souls are basically nonsexual; they're beyond that. I don't think
they're male or female, a philosophy that is supported in the show by the
gender-switching of Mulder's/Scully's/Melissa's/Samantha's souls. I think
human souls fundamentally need spiritual closeness with other human souls,
not carnal closeness. Our biological needs hide this fact while we are
alive, but we can see glimpses of it if we are lucky enough to find
another human being we can truly be spiritually close with while we're
alive.
To put it more bluntly, I don't think when our bodies are dust that we
(our souls) will care how many times we got laid. But it would be a true
tragedy if we never had the privilege to care deeply about another human
being, and have them care about us as well.
To me, Scully's spiritual relationships with Mulder was shown to be
actually more important than Mulder's relationships with Melissa. Melissa
and Mulder, apparently, are eternally fated to lead tragic romantic lives,
never being allowed to live "happily ever after" and get that house with
the white picket fence. Scully and Mulder are also apparently eternally
fated to be spiritually close to each other, and to die together fighting
for what they believe. IMO, that's the more significant relationship.
-- Mishka
"Fear of chaos cannot justify
unwarranted censorship of free speech." (Al Gore)
*** Save the Fan Websites -- FREE SPEECH IS OUT THERE! ***
Luxueil
> Now, if I could think of it as simply a hypnosis-couched
>journey through Mulder's psyche, I would actually think it rather
>brilliant; but trying to take it literally (as I *think* we're supposed
>to) makes the quality & resonance of the script drop to almost nothing.
>The great acting, music & cinematography just can't save it for me from a
>morass of treacle and Emmy-reel moments.
Well, it took me several days, but I've come to realize that that's
exactly what Mulder's regression session was - a journey thru his psyche.
Of course, it's all only IMHO, and I might change my mind by next Sunday,
or next year, or the next post.
Mulder's 'regression' is false. These are the clues: the fact that he and
Melissa were obviously not 'destined' to be together in this lifetime, that
it is impossible for CM to be in the Gestapo in 1939, and that Mulder
reported his past lives as an outside observer, instead of (re)experiencing
the event. (Even when he underwent regression hypnosis to recover the
memories of his sister's abduction, he 'experienced' that night; we hear
this on the audio tape at the end of Conduit.)
Mulder has a powerful memory and an amazing ability to sythesize odd and
unconnected facts; it's possible that he read the story of Sarah and
Sullivan years ago in a book about the Civil War, and saw the map of the
battlefield. Perhaps Sarah wrote a letter after the battle, or was a
participant in an oral history. Lots of possibilities exist for Mulder to
know about them.
So this leads me to wonder: what does Mulder want? He makes no pretense
about wanting to believe. But I think a deeper and stronger desire is
wanting to belong. Mulder's an outsider, the FBI's most unwanted. He
would have been an outsider in Oxford as well - the foreigner. The aliens
have had numerous chances to 'get' him, and they ignore him or outright
reject him again and again in encounters. He was even rejected in favor of
his sister when she was abducted. And I feel that his father rejected him
up until the very day he died.
I think that Mulder was one of those intelligent outcast kids in school -
smarter and faster than anyone else, and in his case, socially maladapted
because of his intelligence and his family history. When he was 12, his
sister was apparently kidnapped while he was asleep (as far as he knows
until the hypnoregression sessions). For more that a decade, until those
sessions, he knew himself to be the cause of her likely death, his
family's breakup and certainly responsible for his father's coldness.
He's learned to cope with the isolation, to defiantly revel in it at times
("the desire to mess with their minds outweighs the millstone of
humiliation"), and he doesn't let the loneliness show much. The audience
sees it far more often than his coworkers. I think Scully is the only
person who has ever gotten close to him, but I don't think he really has
acknowledged that. He copes with the guilt by trying to save the 'lost
ones', like Kristin Kiler or Lucy Householder. Rather than seeing him as
someone who wants to distance himself from others, I see him as someone
who distances himself from relationships because he doesn't know any other
way to be, but who wants, fundmentally to not be distant. To be forgiven,
accepted and loved.
If he could have a psychic ability, or a really magical paranormal
experience, it would let him feel like he's one of these people he
investigates, as opposed to the outsider he's always been. So when a
strange and needy woman - the kind he's partial to - tells him she
recognizes him from a past that he didn't even know he had, that active
imagination goes into overdrive, and invents a whole scenario that
provides him with an eternal family, with continuity, with the acceptance
and love his family denied him, with a sense of purpose, of belonging to
something bigger than himself, of being a participant/victim in numerous
hellacious events that were out of his control. He no longer must be the
lone crusader, because somewhere, some when, he has companions who know
him, who have lived and suffered and died with him. He can also be
relieved from the overwhelming burden of guilt for searching for his
sister: if he doesn't find her this time around, he will in another life.
He includes Scully and Samantha 'cause he can't leave them out (Scully's
listening, after all), and his nemesis CancerMan to represent the evil of
the world, and of course the mysterious woman who started it.
This could be a harmless illusion, except that it might have contributed
to the death of 50 people. Or it could be the beginning of a reality shear
that he might not be able to handle.
As I said YMMV, as might my own very soon.
Nicole, j...@halcyon.com
********** Sequitur Free Zone ************
--
**************************Sequitur Free Zone**********************
Paula J. Vitaris
catherine yronwode (c...@luckymojo.com) wrote:
:
: I had felt (and posted) that this episode was a continuity editor's
: nightmare, that sloppy reserach and poor follow-through had resulted in
: an episode that was not only emotionally unsatisfying, but also
: logically impossible. It had never occurrred to me that CC and M&W might
: have been DELIBERATELY closing the door on the "tease" of UST as a slap
: at the "shipper" fans. But, once you two put that idea in my head, it
: found resonsances. CC has been pretty frank in interviews about how the
: "shippers" are on his case. And we have seen posts avbout how they have
: mobbed him at conventions. Also, taking a look at his other show,
: Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that he is more than a little
: interested in the dismemberment of women and that he views the hero as
: an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a spark of
: pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
:
: In other words, given CC's personal comments about X-Files and X-Files
: fandom and his track record with the dismal Millennium series, it is not
: so impossible to hypothesize that "The Field Where I ZDied" was indeed a
: deliberate attempt to head off the shippers -- and that in writing the
: series' ending in words ten feet high, CC was willing to rid himself of
: a great part of his audience, just to have it his way.
The origin of this episode is not what you suppse. CC did not write nor
come up with the idea for TFWID; Morgan and Wong did. Furthermore, they
did not write it to tick off 'shippers or specifically gratify other
segments of the audience. They wrote it because it was a story that had
a lot of personal meaning for them, as do most of the scripts they
write. And they hoped the audience would like the story they told about
Mulder and Scully and the people they met in this episode. That's it,
pure and simple. There is no conspiracy here.
I really can't imagine any television writer or producer writing an
episode with a *deliberate* intent to rid onself of a large part of the
audience, anyway.
If you didn't like the episode... well, that's okay. This is the place to
pick 'em apart, or praise 'em, as you see it.
I've watched this ep. a number of times and I sure don't see how it
telegraphs the ending of the entire series. Melissa is DEAD. Anything
can happen for Mulder, if he ever manages to pull his head together. And
all possibilities exist for Scully. I think it's going to be an
interesting season for Scully.
Aside from all that, I hope your garden produced some nice "marrows" this
summer, Cat. :)
-- Paula, whose thumb is so black it kills air ferns
Catherine J. Blatz
mis...@aol.com wrote:
> Great review, Cathy! You explained the 'shipper disappointment in TFWID
> very well. Although I'm not a 'shipper, and this was probably my favorite
> ep so far this year, I can see your point of view.
thanks...i stayed up late :)
> You wrote, about CC not wanting to "show us too much":
> <SNIP>
> >we
> >are on a journey towards a definite goal - exposing the truth - but we
> >don't want to get there too quickly, nor do we want to know exactly
> >where we're going. We wouldn't want to know that Samantha is living
> >happily in New Jersey or that CSM will perish on June 3, 2004. We
> >*certainly* wouldn't want to know that it's all untrue, that Mulder's
> >destiny is to be a really, really good manager of a D.C. McDonald's.
>
> I think you have some good plot ideas for the series finale here.
> CC, are you listening <g>? I can see it now...
>
> Mulder (wearing a paper hat and plastic name tag reading "Spooky"):
> Would you like that Super Sized, sir?
>
> Scully (flipping burgers on the grill): Muuulderrr! I need your help!!!
hee hee hee...
Mulder (to new hiree): Would you toss this garbage bag in the dumpster,
Sparky?
Sparky (in cracking adolescent voice): Sure...uhh...where's the
dumpster, Mr. Spooky, sir?
Mulder (sighing dramatically, opening back door and pointing): The
dumpster is *out there*, Sparky.
Scully (popping up behind, holding can of bug spray and sporting a
nasty insect bite on her cheek): The dumpster *is* out there, Mulder.
But so are flies.
Hey, I kinda like this...let's start our own show. :)
'K, time to get serious <sigh>
Thanks for your insightful response, Mishka...
I agree, as I mentioned in the review, that the most "special"
relationship doesn't have to be a sexual one. I guess, and I don't
think I really articulated this all that well, that my main issue with
Scully being what she was in Mulder's past lives is that they were not
portrayed as "equals." The fact that she was his "superior," more or
less, in both lives doesn't help - it's not a contest; they should be
on the *same* level. In this life they are partners. They each
contribute to the solving of cases; they each support the other in
his/her time of need (Mulder needs to practice his sensitivity, but he
can be quite sweet when he comes close enough to earth to notice her);
and their interaction is very much back and forth, a steady exchange of
thoughts. I don't feel that either of them is naturally superior to the
other. I see the writers' point that Scully keeps Mulder in line and so
forth, but I certainly don't consider her an authority figure to him. I
suppose one could argue that *he* might have been the authority figure
in a different life, but I don't see that. Every "equal" relationship
has fluctuations - there are times when Mulder is the child
("Herrenvolk") and times when Scully is ("Irresistible"). Granted,
Mulder is the child more often, but not enough, I don't think, to
justify his being so for an entire life. They each learn from the other.
Mulder has learned not to jump at his first instinct; Scully has learned
to trust hers a little more. (By the way, I am arguing with the show
here, not with you.)
Having Scully be the father and Mulder the child in a past life doesn't
mean that they can't be close; it means they can't be equal, and it
also means that they can't be "life partners." Again, I'd feel OK if
they were simply close friends for the rest of this life - but not if
Mulder has someone else whom he's closer to, in a more reciprocative
(is that a word?) way. Your father is someone you love dearly, but also
someone you leave at the end of childhood to begin your "real" life.
Your superior is someone you respect, perhaps even love, but again it's
not an equal relationship.
I very much see your point about spiritual vs. carnal love between
souls. I wouldn't mind so much if it were made clear that while Melissa
was destined to be Mulder's bedmate, Scully was destined to be the
one he was truly the closest to. But I felt we were being told that
*Melissa* was his "soulmate," the one he loved the most in all ways,
the one he was "meant to be" with. I felt that we were being shown that
Scully, while an important part of his life in both recalled lives, was
not the *most* important. That's what I meant by "sidekick," or by the
fact that Mulder and Melissa were orbiting each other while Scully was
a smaller, less crucial satellite orbiting Mulder.
And, among other reasons which I've already stated, I don't like this
because Melissa is not someone we've ever met before or will ever see
again, and I resent being asked to accept her as the most important
person in Mulder's eternity. If they wanted that relationship to be so
important, they should have had her on the show from the beginning.
If Mulder were to have a girlfriend on the show, even one who lasts
for a while, I wouldn't mind so much. I wouldn't be *thrilled*, but
I would look forward to the time when the relationship ended and Scully
was still there. If Mulder had had a fling with Melissa I wouldn't
have minded (except for my usual objection to Mulder's being the only
one who gets to have love interests). It's the eternity thing that
gets me. Any meaningful possibility of that kind of relationship between
Mulder and Scully (or Mulder and anyone else, for that matter) has been
eliminated. I just don't see why they had to be so final about the whole
thing. Let the show develop, for God's sake; don't seal its fate for
the sake of one episode.
> -- Mishka
>
> "Fear of chaos cannot justify
> unwarranted censorship of free speech." (Al Gore)
>
> *** Save the Fan Websites -- FREE SPEECH IS OUT THERE! ***
Cathy
whatever
mis...@aol.com wrote:
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> Great review, Cathy! You explained the 'shipper disappointment in TFWID
> very well. Although I'm not a 'shipper, and this was probably my favorite
> ep so far this year, I can see your point of view.
>
> I have to take issue with this "sidekick" thing I've been reading
> regarding Scully's reported past lives with Mulder. To me, the way Mulder
> saw her in their supposed past lives was much more than as a sidekick. In
> one she was his sargeant and another his father. Both roles are much more
> than sidekicks. They're the ultimate protectorants, often the most
> important people in someone's life. And the way Mulder talked about them
> in his regression, he seemed like they were extremely important to him,
> possibly as important to him as Melissa's incarnations, but I admit, in a
> different way.
>
> Am I the only one who believes platonic relationships with special people
> in our lives can be as strong, even stronger, than a relationship between
> lovers?
* No. :) I find it's more important in my life than my lovers. My soulmate is
my brother. We aren't related, but we share our lives as if we spent lifetimes
together. His girlfriend is very understanding. Now, if I could only find a man that
could accept the fact that my best friend has a penis... :) And why does Society in
America get so bent out of shape over opposite-sex friendships?
> People who have managed to find "their one true love" are very
> fortunate; I think very few people ever do find that romantic soulmate.
> But to have a very close relationship with someone on a platonic level,
> IMO, is just as special and just as rare.
>
> To me, souls are basically nonsexual; they're beyond that. I don't think
> they're male or female, a philosophy that is supported in the show by the
> gender-switching of Mulder's/Scully's/Melissa's/Samantha's souls. I think
> human souls fundamentally need spiritual closeness with other human souls,
> not carnal closeness. Our biological needs hide this fact while we are
> alive, but we can see glimpses of it if we are lucky enough to find
> another human being we can truly be spiritually close with while we're
> alive.
* I'll admit to seeing a man and think LUST. Not just a little lust, but great,
big, huge squidges worth. That's only very rarely. I usually don't get turned on
until I know them better. But that's the biology of the situation. :)
To find the Ultimate Closeness that Moose & Squirrel share... Ahhh! Now
THERE'S a goal that is worthy...
I guess that's why I enjoyed TFWID even though my "brother" didn't. As a
male, he answers to his 'nads and not his heart & soul. M&S will always be together,
will always be special in each others lives and isn't that what counts? :)
>
> To put it more bluntly, I don't think when our bodies are dust that we
> (our souls) will care how many times we got laid. But it would be a true
> tragedy if we never had the privilege to care deeply about another human
> being, and have them care about us as well.
>
> To me, Scully's spiritual relationships with Mulder was shown to be
> actually more important than Mulder's relationships with Melissa. Melissa
> and Mulder, apparently, are eternally fated to lead tragic romantic lives,
> never being allowed to live "happily ever after" and get that house with
> the white picket fence. Scully and Mulder are also apparently eternally
> fated to be spiritually close to each other, and to die together fighting
> for what they believe. IMO, that's the more significant relationship.
>
> -- Mishka
* IMO, Mulder didn't actually regress to past lives. I'm siding with the "He
inadvertantly made it up out of whole cloth." faction on this one. Mulder just wants
to believe a little too much sometimes. :)
I also feel that Mr. Duchovny does a wonderful job of portraying this poor,
little Lost Boy/Peter Pan character that we discuss so fervently. (Just trying to
seperate the 2 before I continue. :) )
In Scully, Mulder has "found" his sister. The ultimate companion. She'll
always be there to support him, comfort him and listen to him. And he'll always be
there for her. (Though not as often!) He's always wanted a sister, and now he has
one. She's smart, she's funny and she can stand up to him. (Which he needs more
often in my opinion. :))
I get the impression that Mulder is the brother that Scully never really had.
She only talks about hers indirectly. The inference is that she was never been
very close to them. In Mulder, she's found that brother she's always wanted.
Quick-witted, intuitive, dry humor to balance her own and, well, he doesn't hurt the
eyes any. ;)
Wiser heads then I have stated that "You can choose your friends, but not
your relatives.". My goal in life is to prove that wrong... I pick my family as I
travel the Everyday...
All in all, Mishka2, I LOVED your post!
deb...or whatever.
Catherine J. Blatz
catherine yronwode wrote:
>
> Cassandra cass...@sprynet.com wrote:
> >
> > Cathy J. Blatz cja...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
<snip-a-roo>
> > > Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by
> > > the creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
> > > relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't
> > > shake, of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how
> > > much this will upset some of the fans.
<more snippery>
> > While I don't think this ep firmly closed the door on a romantic
> > relationship for M&S (for all eternity, no less!) -- there were too
> > many plot holes & inconsistencies for that -- I can't shake the
> > nagging feeling that that was precisely their intention. If so (and I
> > truly hope it isn't, but, well, I'm a cynic, so I have to entertain
> > the possibility), it speaks to me of an overriding, arrogant contempt
> > for the fans.
<ich habe es gesnippen>
> I had felt (and posted) that this episode was a continuity editor's
> nightmare, that sloppy reserach and poor follow-through had resulted in
> an episode that was not only emotionally unsatisfying, but also
> logically impossible. It had never occurrred to me that CC and M&W might
> have been DELIBERATELY closing the door on the "tease" of UST as a slap
> at the "shipper" fans. But, once you two put that idea in my head, it
> found resonsances. CC has been pretty frank in interviews about how the
> "shippers" are on his case. And we have seen posts avbout how they have
> mobbed him at conventions. Also, taking a look at his other show,
> Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that he is more than a little
> interested in the dismemberment of women and that he views the hero as
> an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a spark of
> pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
>
> In other words, given CC's personal comments about X-Files and X-Files
> fandom and his track record with the dismal Millennium series, it is not
> so impossible to hypothesize that "The Field Where I ZDied" was indeed a
> deliberate attempt to head off the shippers -- and that in writing the
> series' ending in words ten feet high, CC was willing to rid himself of
> a great part of his audience, just to have it his way.
>
> He wins. We lose.
<Snip. Sniporama. Snipatola. Senorita Snipita. Sniiiip.>
These are great comments, guys...sorry about all the...you know.
Let me insert a quick disclaimer here...
While I do think it's possible that the notion of eliminating a great
deal of the "relationshipper fuel" appealed to CC, I'm not saying that
that's definitely what happened. It was just a thought I had, and it
bothered me. I *hope* it's not true, and I don't necessarily believe
it is.
I know CC didn't write the episode - Glen Morgan and James Wong did.
It's also occured to me that they could have been harboring some
resentment over the cancellation of Space: A & B (due to low ratings,
which means, people not liking it enough to watch), and somehow
translated that into, "Let's really screw their dreams of having M & S
together." I don't know that that's true either. Again, I hope it isn't.
It would just, well, really suck if it were.
I think both we the fans, and they the creators, occasionally
overestimate the power we have to affect the show. We bitch a lot and
criticize and nitpick, and they now have the technology to access it
immediately. Before the Internet, people still complained to their
friends about what they didn't like about what was on TV. The difference
is now that CC and the gang can hear us. It doesn't mean we have any
more control than if they didn't hear us. It's still Carter's show, as
I said - even if he feels that it has become the fans' show. He doesn't
have to bend his vision to our every whim. It's cute when they throw in
little things like Scully driving to let us know they're watching us -
but they are under no obligation to make fundamental changes according
to what we think should happen. They also should not find it necessary
to do just the opposite in order to demonstrate their power. If that was
the intention - *IF* - then I would think they were being a bit paranoid
and a bit petty. However, again, I don't feel the least bit positive
that that *is* what happened - it was just a nasty thought I had.
> catherine yronwode * mailto:c...@luckymojo.com * http://www.luckymojo.com
> * Lucky W Amulet Archive * The Sacred Landscape * Karezza and Tantra *
> for discussions about folkloric magic, ask your ISP for news:alt.lucky.w
Cathy
(whoah, way too many Catherines - Ca's for that matter)
--
Catherine J. Blatz
============================================================
Stoner: "Dude, what's wrong with you, you made me drop my toad!"
- "Quagmire"
============================================================
cja...@ix.netcom.com
catherine yronwode
Paula J. Vitaris wrote:
>
> catherine yronwode (c...@luckymojo.com) wrote:
> :
> : I had felt (and posted) that this episode was a continuity editor's
> : nightmare, that sloppy reserach and poor follow-through had resulted
> : in an episode that was not only emotionally unsatisfying, but also
> : logically impossible. It had never occurrred to me that CC and M&W
> : might have been DELIBERATELY closing the door on the "tease" of UST as
> : Cassandra) put that idea in my head, it found resonsances. [...]
>
> The origin of this episode is not what you suppse. CC did not write nor
> come up with the idea for TFWID; Morgan and Wong did. Furthermore, they
> did not write it to tick off 'shippers or specifically gratify other
> segments of the audience. They wrote it because it was a story that had
> a lot of personal meaning for them, as do most of the scripts they
> write. And they hoped the audience would like the story they told about
> Mulder and Scully and the people they met in this episode. That's it,
Hey, that's good to hear -- and i trust your sources are closer to the
truth than Cathy's or Cassandra's or my theoretcal musings are. (And
note, none of us said we knew CC and M&W came up with this or called it
a "conspiracy" to "get back" at pesky shippers -- we were kicking the
notion around, that's all.)
> I've watched this ep. a number of times and I sure don't see how it
> telegraphs the ending of the entire series. Melissa is DEAD. Anything
> can happen for Mulder, if he ever manages to pull his head together.
> Andc all possibilities exist for Scully.
Cathy Blatz really has rebutted your point so well that i don't feel the
need to paraphrase her -- jst follow the thread. Basically, she notes
that the defining of the "eternal soulmate Melissa/Sarah" versus
"sidekick/father Scully" roles seems to close out many possible endings,
including an eventual union. Mulder's new-found certainty that Scully
was not and cannot be *a potetnially mate* but must remain *specifically
a helper* devalues her and telegraphs the ending of the series. And,
again as Cathy so eloquently argued, the suddenness of Mulder's "eternal
soulmate's" coming and going was a cheat on the viewers.
> I think it's going to be an interesting season for Scully.
I hope Scully has an interesting season; right now i really don't much
care what kind of a season Mulder has unless he wises up to the
self-delusion of TFWID and gives Scully some overdue respect and honour.
The funny thing was that "Home," with its talk of Scully as a mother and
all, was as close to sexual flirtation as Mulder usually gets -- and was
wonderfully deft M&W character-writing as far as i was concerned. I have
had a few geeky male friends like that version of Mulder; they talk
about science or genetics -- and then later it turns out that they were
(in their own minds) pouring their heart out to you. So i am not asking
for touching or hand-holding, just an end to this crappy "Melissa was my
seternal soulmate and you're not" stuff.
> Aside from all that, I hope your garden produced some nice "marrows"
> this summer, Cat. :)
Ah, yes, the marrows were fine. Poor showing of swedes, however.
cat
J Thomas
Gia Gittleson wrote:
>
> catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> Also, taking a look at his other show,
> >Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that he is more than a little
> >interested in the dismemberment of women
>
>
> and that he views the hero as
> >an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a spark of
> >pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
>
>
> There's not a scintilla of passion in their marriage. I'm not asking for
> full-on tantric sex on the hood of a Buick (altho that never hurt anybody
> ;> ) FB and CB can maintain their paragon-of-good qualities in a love
> embrace. And there's no reason to write a drawn-out love scene, but a few
> serious kisses here and there would add much.
>
> The good news: CC has also said that FB's "a character with tremendous
> sex appeal, he's a 'protector.'" There, you have. A hot little pull quote
> about FB's potential as lover and husband. So, all you guys around the
> conference table, what are you waiting for?
>
> best,
>
> Gia
Personally, I think CC is showing they have a wonderfull, loving relationship without
having to go for physical displays! The way they interact with each other, the looks,
and especially when they are together with Jordan, IMHO, speak more volumes about the
way they feel for each other than showing any "serious kisses". Just my
two cents worth.....
Jenny T
Cassandra
>
> In other words, given CC's personal comments about X-Files and X-Files
> fandom and his track record with the dismal Millennium series, it is not
> so impossible to hypothesize that "The Field Where I ZDied" was indeed a
> deliberate attempt to head off the shippers -- and that in writing the
> series' ending in words ten feet high, CC was willing to rid himself of
> a great part of his audience, just to have it his way.
>
> He wins. We lose.
>
In reality, I think *everybody* loses. He may think of it as winning (if
it was a deliberate slam, which I'm still forlornly hoping it wasn't), but
I truly think it will backfire. Badly. Maybe not right away, but
ultimately, as disillusion grows.
You know, I have seen posts by a couple of people who didn't consider
themselves relationshippers at all. Until this episode, when they were so
upset by the thought that the possibility had been eliminated, that they
realized they actually *were* relationshippers. I must say I would find it
deliciously ironic & fitting if a number of viewers actually became
'shippers *because of* this episode. "Hoist by his own petard" anyone? <g>
Ah, maybe I'm just being vengeful on this point!
> That is hardly a mature way to run a commerical television series -- and
> the next move will be written in the ratings, i suspect.
>
No, it's not very mature at all. It's petty, and poorly thought-out, and
more than a little arrogant. No view of "the big picture".
> I wacthed my very last Millenium on Friday. I just can't take the
> gloomy, deprressing, scary worldview it promulgates.
>
> I am still watching X-Files, but with a leaden heart. I am not a
> relationshipper, i am just someone who likes unresolved sexual tension
> and wanted to believe that in the end these emotionally crippled
> characters would affirm their value to one another in a sexual way.
I once read an article on DD in which he said he thought XF was actually
rather an optimistic show, b/c it showed that anything was possible. I
think it maybe used to be, but it's lost a lot of that. Now it seems to
wallow in its darkness & downbeat fatalism. Frankly, I think CC has been
reading "The Wasteland" & contemplating the end of the century *way* too
much for the show's good! Dark is interesting & different for television
... but I think it becomes wearying to watch after a while. I work at a
newspaper, so I hear about all sorts of disturbing things every day. I
don't necessarily want to revisit them constantly in my entertainment.
Sometimes you just need a little hope.
The possibility of affirmation that you mention is a bit of light & hope
amid all the horror & pain; if that's not there, then it sucks a lot of
the joy of watching out of it for me. Because I cannot believe that when
all is said & done, Mulder will find Samantha & the Truth, Good will
ultimately prevail over Evil and everything will be peace & light &
harmony because of it. That's not realistic, and it's sure not XF's style.
I don't think Mulder will ever be able to find the real & all-encompassing
Truth; but I hoped that maybe he could come away with at least some
personal Truths that would bring him some much-needed comfort & peace. I
always saw a lasting romantic relationship b/t M&S as one positive
possibility that could be realistically salvaged from all the angst &
despair. I mean, life-long friends is good, I just think these two
tortured characters deserve a lot more after all they've suffered. (And,
yes, believe me, I *know* life isn't fair like that! <g>)
Snipped from another thread:
<For me, the problem comes down to a lack of continuity editing. There
should be a story editor reviewing all the episodes before they are
filmed and commenting on whether or not they are consistent in terms of
characterization (e.g. Mulder and Scully's relationship) or plotting
(e.g. Cancerman as a Gestapo soldier). I assume such a job description
exists and that someone is drawing pay for the work -- but he or she is
incompetent. The series is suffering because of this. >
I heartily agree! Their lack of continuity is getting more & more
ridiculous; it's almost a joke. It reflects badly on the show; if they
can't get the "little" things right, how are we supposed to trust them
with the "big" things? (We hear about this all the time at work about
facts & copy-editing!)
Cassandra
Cassandra
In article <566a8n$7...@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, pvi...@curly.cc.emory.edu
(Paula J. Vitaris) wrote:
>
> The origin of this episode is not what you suppse. CC did not write nor
> come up with the idea for TFWID; Morgan and Wong did. Furthermore, they
> did not write it to tick off 'shippers or specifically gratify other
> segments of the audience. They wrote it because it was a story that had
> a lot of personal meaning for them, as do most of the scripts they
> write. And they hoped the audience would like the story they told about
> Mulder and Scully and the people they met in this episode. That's it,
> pure and simple. There is no conspiracy here.
>
I appreciate the reassurance. I'm afraid I'm just too darn cynical to be
reassured completely, but it's nice to have it just the same. <g>
Do you happen to have any insight into the usage of the name "Melissa"?
That nags at me, knowing one mercifully scrapped idea that was bandied
about for the original Melissa.
Cassandra
>
> Well, it took me several days, but I've come to realize that that's
> exactly what Mulder's regression session was - a journey thru his psyche.
> Of course, it's all only IMHO, and I might change my mind by next Sunday,
> or next year, or the next post.
>
> to the death of 50 people. Or it could be the beginning of a reality shear
> that he might not be able to handle.
>
Very interesting & spot-on take on Mulder there, which I've mercilessly
snipped for bandwidth reasons <g>. I pretty much agree with your
interpretation of him. I think he's definitely regressing instead of
progressing over the course of the series, and I think he's sliding fast.
I'd like to see him turn it around; maybe he has to do the ole "hit
rock-bottom" thing first, though. That would certainly be dramatically
interesting.
It certainly is a possibility that it was all his twisted psyche; it's the
far more interesting idea to me than seeing the ep literally. That was
actually my first reaction to it. But then I talked myself out of it b/c
of his naming of the historical people. I still go back & forth on it, as
you say you do as well. And I rather doubt they'll actually revist the
events or implications of this ep, so I guess we'll probably never get any
more evidence either way!
Cassandra
> I know CC didn't write the episode - Glen Morgan and James Wong did.
> It's also occured to me that they could have been harboring some
> resentment over the cancellation of Space: A & B (due to low ratings,
> which means, people not liking it enough to watch), and somehow
> translated that into, "Let's really screw their dreams of having M & S
> together." I don't know that that's true either. Again, I hope it isn't.
> It would just, well, really suck if it were.
Jeez, I flirted with the same "take out their frustrations on XF" thing
after "Home"! But I decided it was just way too cynical & negative, so I
made myself not think about it anymore. It was really hard. <g>
>
> I think both we the fans, and they the creators, occasionally
> overestimate the power we have to affect the show. We bitch a lot and
> criticize and nitpick, and they now have the technology to access it
> immediately. Before the Internet, people still complained to their
> friends about what they didn't like about what was on TV. The difference
> is now that CC and the gang can hear us. It doesn't mean we have any
> more control than if they didn't hear us. It's still Carter's show, as
> I said - even if he feels that it has become the fans' show. He doesn't
> have to bend his vision to our every whim. It's cute when they throw in
> little things like Scully driving to let us know they're watching us -
> but they are under no obligation to make fundamental changes according
> to what we think should happen. They also should not find it necessary
> to do just the opposite in order to demonstrate their power.
I'm rather of the opinion that fans' views should have *some*
consideration. I mean, God knows they shouldn't take a poll every time
they wanted to introduce a character or add something to the mythology
(What a nightmare *that* would be in every possible way! <g>), but if they
wanted to do something for story purposes that they know would
*definitely* piss off the fans (strictly for argument's sake, like kill
off Scully or reveal Skinner to be a shape-shifting alien), then I think
they should think long & hard about whether the creative benefits actually
outweigh the fans' response. I think it shows respect for the fans, who,
after all, are ultimately as responsible for the show's success as its
quality.
I kind of look at TV shows like a long-time privately held company that
goes public. The old owner may still be CEO & own a majority of the stock,
but now there are all these stockholders who have a stake in the company
too.
> Cathy
> (whoah, way too many Catherines - Ca's for that matter)
> --
I had a really good friend in college named Catherine, who went by "Cath".
So whenever somebody was talking to us, we always got confused over
whether the person was saying "Cath" or "Cass".
This has been my completely meaningless contribution for today. <g>
mis...@aol.com
In article <3286C1...@ix.netcom.com>, "Catherine J. Blatz"
<cja...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
<snip>
>
>I agree, as I mentioned in the review, that the most "special"
>relationship doesn't have to be a sexual one. I guess, and I don't
>think I really articulated this all that well, that my main issue with
>Scully being what she was in Mulder's past lives is that they were not
>portrayed as "equals." The fact that she was his "superior," more or
>less, in both lives doesn't help - it's not a contest; they should be
>on the *same* level. In this life they are partners. They each
>contribute to the solving of cases; they each support the other in
>his/her time of need (Mulder needs to practice his sensitivity, but he
>can be quite sweet when he comes close enough to earth to notice her);
>and their interaction is very much back and forth, a steady exchange of
>thoughts. I don't feel that either of them is naturally superior to the
>other. I see the writers' point that Scully keeps Mulder in line and so
>forth, but I certainly don't consider her an authority figure to him. I
>suppose one could argue that *he* might have been the authority figure
>in a different life, but I don't see that. Every "equal" relationship
>has fluctuations - there are times when Mulder is the child
>("Herrenvolk") and times when Scully is ("Irresistible"). Granted,
>Mulder is the child more often, but not enough, I don't think, to
>justify his being so for an entire life. They each learn from the other.
>Mulder has learned not to jump at his first instinct; Scully has learned
>to trust hers a little more. (By the way, I am arguing with the show
>here, not with you.)
>
Cathy --
No, I don't feel that you're arguing with me, nor am I arguing with you
=^). You've presented some really cool/thoughtful viewpoints on this. I
guess I didn't understand originally what you said about M & S not being
seen as equals in their past lives, or Scully being Mulder's eternal
"sidekick". To me, a sidekick is an inferior. Apparently, you meant
"sidekick" another way, maybe like any unequal partner, inferior or
superior?
Sometimes I see the show presenting her as an inferior sidekick, like in
last night's ep (IMO), Sanguinarium (won't add spoilers here). Where
Mulder always comes up with the bright ideas and he just tells Scully "why
don't you have this analysed?" But I felt in TFWID, which has become a
very special ep to me, Scully's role as one of Mulder's soulmates made her
way more than a sidekick, inferior or superior.
Yes, I think Morgan and Wong put her in the eternal authority figure role
against Mulder because they wanted to remind us that she, in their vision,
is the one who gently and lovingly keeps Mulder from flying off in all
directions, like a good father/sergeant should to his child/soldier. I'm
also leaning towards the theory that Morgan and Wong want us to have
serious doubts that Mulder's regression memories were genuine, and they
wanted to give Mulder a chance to reveal how he REALLY feels about his
relationship with Scully. I'm just saying that I think that their
"eternal" relationship, real or only in Mulder's subconscious, is a much
more positive one than we've ever been given in the show.
>Having Scully be the father and Mulder the child in a past life doesn't
>mean that they can't be close; it means they can't be equal, and it
>also means that they can't be "life partners." Again, I'd feel OK if
>they were simply close friends for the rest of this life - but not if
>Mulder has someone else whom he's closer to, in a more reciprocative
>(is that a word?) way. Your father is someone you love dearly, but also
>someone you leave at the end of childhood to begin your "real" life.
>Your superior is someone you respect, perhaps even love, but again it's
>not an equal relationship.
>
Good points, again. Fundamentally, though, is one soul worth more than
another,just because on earth one has a subordinate position to another?
Is my boss more important as a human being than I am just because he's
risen to a higher position in our careers than I have? To bring this back
to examples from the show, I've never been in a war and had a sergeant
teach me how to stay alive, but from what I understand the
soldier/sergeant relationship under fire can be indescribably close, a
kind of lifetime bond. Although I'm on my own and independent of my
father, I will never leave him spiritually, even after he's dead, and he
will always be with me. Even at age 34, there are times when I need my
dad, and although he's very ill and can't be there for me, what he was to
me as a child gets me through those hard times. (I'm starting to cry now;
I'll try not to short out my keyboard.)
But, spiritually, I don't feel my dad is my superior, nor is he really a
superior to me as a human being. He has his faults. Maybe I feel this
way because he wasn't the type of dad who pulled rank on me all the time;
he respected me as a person, and managed to teach me what he did and keep
me out of trouble through reason and mutual respect. A lot of people
aren't fortunate enough to have dads like that (or soldiers have sergeants
like that, sergeants who gain their soldier's respect because the
sergeants deserve it, not because they outrank them).
Still, I see your point about this not making Mulder and Scully's
relationship neccesarily equal while they're on this earth; but, as we've
seen their roles in the show, Scully has been anywhere from a glorified
gofer to an equal in relation to Mulder, IMO. Up to now, I think many of
us non-'shippers have hoped that they are close friends; sometimes we see
that, sometimes they seem to be just annoyed with eachother (Quagmire,
etc.), sometimes it seems to be all about sexual jealousy on the part of
Scully and indifference by Mulder (Syzygy, War of the Bugs, etc.). That
Mulder subconsciously sees her as something like a beloved (stress that,
please) sergeant or father (or that their eternal relationship is destined
to stay like that) is a step forward in the weekly question, "Just what IS
Mulder and Scully's relationship?"
>I very much see your point about spiritual vs. carnal love between
>souls. I wouldn't mind so much if it were made clear that while Melissa
>was destined to be Mulder's bedmate, Scully was destined to be the
>one he was truly the closest to. But I felt we were being told that
>*Melissa* was his "soulmate," the one he loved the most in all ways,
>the one he was "meant to be" with. I felt that we were being shown that
>Scully, while an important part of his life in both recalled lives, was
>not the *most* important. That's what I meant by "sidekick," or by the
>fact that Mulder and Melissa were orbiting each other while Scully was
>a smaller, less crucial satellite orbiting Mulder.
>
I think Mulder, in his conscious mind, went with the idea that Melissa was
more important as a soulmate, just as many of us believe that romantic
love is more important than the love between close friends and family
members. But, like I tried to explain before, in his hypnosis I really
felt like he was at least as distressed, if not more so, by the death of
the Scully incarnation than he was by losing touch with Melissa's
incarnation. Maybe that was just my interpretation of what I saw, and I
was just reading what I wanted to see into the scene.
>And, among other reasons which I've already stated, I don't like this
>because Melissa is not someone we've ever met before or will ever see
>again, and I resent being asked to accept her as the most important
>person in Mulder's eternity. If they wanted that relationship to be so
>important, they should have had her on the show from the beginning.
>
Like I've said and tried to explain, I don't think TFWID neccesitates that
Melissa was the most important person in Mulder's eternity. Please see
above <g>. There also was a really interesting post today on this thread
from someone about the idea of "soulmates" throughout the ages, that I
think would back up what I've been trying to say.
In short, in different interpretations of what soulmates are throughout
time, people have often theorized that there can be multiple kinds of
soulmates in a person's lives -- romantic ones, friendship ones, etc.
According to these viewpoints, romantic soulmates are not neccesarily the
most important spiritual relationships. They're often quite inferior to
others, kind of like what I said about "carnal" soulmate relationships vs.
relationships between souls that go deeper than that.
>If Mulder were to have a girlfriend on the show, even one who lasts
>for a while, I wouldn't mind so much. I wouldn't be *thrilled*, but
>I would look forward to the time when the relationship ended and Scully
>was still there. If Mulder had had a fling with Melissa I wouldn't
>have minded (except for my usual objection to Mulder's being the only
>one who gets to have love interests). It's the eternity thing that
>gets me. Any meaningful possibility of that kind of relationship between
>Mulder and Scully (or Mulder and anyone else, for that matter) has been
>eliminated. I just don't see why they had to be so final about the whole
>thing. Let the show develop, for God's sake; don't seal its fate for
>the sake of one episode.
>
>
Well, as was expected and as is par for the course, last night everything
was back to "normal" for them, like nothing happened regarding soulmates
and eternity and learning from each incarnation. Not that I wanted them
to go on with this; I was just bored with the ep, no matter how much I
like good, gross-out gore. Maybe it was just that there were no major
plot holes to spend all week hypothesizing about and hitting the
encyclopedias to try to explain <g>. And I especially didn't like this
"incarnation" of the Mulder/Scully relationship. Mulder was having his
odd but accurate crime-solving insights, and Scully, after the requisite
"What are you talking about, Mulder? Pentagrams?" (not a direct quote,
she just seemed to be there as a Mulder sounding board to me), was being
sent off like a glorified lab tech/rookie cop (no cut meant to lab
techs/rookie cops meant).
mis...@aol.com
>It's a commerical world, the world of popular
>culture, and my dollar is what they are bidding for. Carter may win his
>war against "shipper" fans (among whom i do NOT number myself) but the
>collateral damage to the series is too great.
>
>
I respect your opinion, but I'd like to think that popular culture can be
art, not just a commercial enterprise. Ideally, art should come out of
the artist; artists, IMO, shouldn't cater to what the people with the
dollar demand. Which way is CC (and his writers) going? I'm not sure
anymore. Personally, I like it when he doesn't give in to what his
audience wants, and when he sticks to what he envisions for the show.
That takes guts in television, and keeps it open as an artistic venue.
Paula J. Vitaris
catherine yronwode (c...@luckymojo.com) wrote:
:
: Hey, that's good to hear -- and i trust your sources are closer to the
: truth than Cathy's or Cassandra's or my theoretcal musings are.
Close enough. :)
: (And
: note, none of us said we knew CC and M&W came up with this or called it
: a "conspiracy" to "get back" at pesky shippers -- we were kicking the
: notion around, that's all.)
:
Sounded more like you were *convinced* of it...
: > I've watched this ep. a number of times and I sure don't see how it
: > telegraphs the ending of the entire series. Melissa is DEAD. Anything
: > can happen for Mulder, if he ever manages to pull his head together.
: > Andc all possibilities exist for Scully.
:
: Cathy Blatz really has rebutted your point so well that i don't feel the
: need to paraphrase her -- jst follow the thread. Basically, she notes
: that the defining of the "eternal soulmate Melissa/Sarah" versus
: "sidekick/father Scully" roles seems to close out many possible endings,
: including an eventual union.
I just don't see that... I really, really don't see that. Actually, I'm
not arguing for the show to end one way or the other. I'm open to all
possibilities. But if there is one thing I know, you may define someone
one way, or categorize them as fitting one small area, and someday that
definition/categorization could change...and change big time.
How do I know? It happened to me. For three years I defined a man I
knew as merely a good friend. And then one day, poof, *everything
changed* -- and we've been happily married for 16 years.
X-Files is a fluid show in its interpretation of characters. Drama is
about transformation. There is no reason why Mulder and Scully cannot,
ultimately, change and re-interpret themselves to each other. Whatever they
were to each other in their past lives (and we only saw a few of what I
assume is a multitude of lives) is not a clue to me as to how they
*must* feel about each other in this life. The characters talk about
fate, but I don't believe in it, and I don't believe Mulder and Scully
are fated to be locked into specific roles. Life is about choices, and
if they are not lovers, it's because they have chosen -- consciously or
unconsciously -- not to be that to each other. The more I think about
this episode, the more I am convinced that anything can happen for Mulder
and Scully, although right now what I'd _really_ like to see Scully get a
boyfriend for a while. :)
I imagine one can find great sweetness and fulfillment in a second love
too, after having loved and lost before.
And if Mulder spends his entire life rejecting love -- Scully's or
anyone else's -- because of a DEAD WOMAN, then he's even more screwed up
than I thought he was. If this is the case, he's got problems that
transcend whatever Scully can do for him. He needs professional help. :)
: Mulder's new-found certainty that Scully
: was not and cannot be *a potetnially mate* but must remain *specifically
: a helper* devalues her and telegraphs the ending of the series. And,
: again as Cathy so eloquently argued, the suddenness of Mulder's "eternal
: soulmate's" coming and going was a cheat on the viewers.
:
Well, I disagree... see above...
What I want to know is... why the heck is Mulder eyeing nurses when he lost
his "soulmate" last week? I'm trying to tell myself there's another
reason for it than just pure horn-dogginess.... :)
-- Paula, who now retires happily back to "lurk" status
para...@aol.com
<<This relationship, we are told, is not the tightly
spinning core of all the hope in the universe, the ultimate trust, the
purest love. Mulder and Scully are cosmic pals and nothing more, and
Scully is merely a satellite orbiting around Mulder, who spins not with
her but with Sarah/Melissa.>>
I'm really sorry that you see these developments in this way. I didn't
know how Shippers were going to feel but now I've got a pretty good idea.
;-) I think this episode brought Mulder and Scully closer together and
gave resonance to so many aspects of their relationship, such as "Scully,
you are the only one I trust" and "Mulder, I had the strengths of your
beliefs". I'm firmly convinced that Mulder's past lives, his strong
beliefs that carried him through WWII and the Civil War, gave Scully the
will to live in One Breath. And Mulder has learned, through his
regression, that he has trusted Scully over many lifetimes. Their trust
is the spinning core of all the hope in the universe. Look at how hard,
how impossible, it is for Mulder to trust. But he trusts Scully
implicitly and this is worth more than any romantic love. This is
Mulder's soul trusting. He gives Scully his heart AND his life.
<< Mulder has someone
else who is matters more to him. Someone he loves more deeply, trusts
more completely (if he doesn't, she isn't much of a soulmate) and is
bound to more tightly. Why, then, should he and Scully bother to watch
each other's backs the way they do, to sacrifice themselves every day
for the other? It's as if they're merely going through the motions.>>
See above. There is no indication that Mulder feels more strongly for
Melissa. None at all. They were destined to be together only for a short
while in this life and this idea played itself out in the field. This was
their Moment. And then Mulder rejoined Scully, his eternal friend.
Mulder and Scully's Moment is their partnership, their lives.
<<And just to add insult to injury, Dana Scully is revealed to be
cosmically not an equal to Mulder, but a sidekick - not to mention that
her femininity is unceremoniously snatched away from her. Has she been a
man in every life except this one, and if so, what exactly is the
implication here? That a strong, unsentimental woman is abnormal? That
the only reason she shatters female stereotypes is that her natural
state is masculine? This disturbs me more than a little. >>
Someone else said something about souls being sexless and I tend to agree.
I think you might be reading a little more into this situation than it
really requires. As for Scully being a sidekick...I don't really see her
as Sancho Panza. She and Mulder *are* equals and they tilt at those
windmills together. One of Chris Carter's defining moments for both of
these characters was when Scully put her back to the wall along with
Mulder in Paper Clip and gave herself, wholly and completely, over to
Belief.
<< This would have been a more appropriate connection
between Mulder and a one-time guest star whom we'd never laid eyes on
until this episode.>>
I don't think the episode would have resonated the way it did. The drama
wouldn't have existed and the stakes for Mulder wouldn't have been very
high. If the writers choose to deal with these developments, there is a
much richer playing field now.
<<I still don't follow the justification, other than Mulder's memories,
for the explanation why she was not a multiple personality. How did all
her past lives get to know about each other, if that's what they were? >>
There is every indication that Melissa did suffer from DID but what I
found interesting was the idea that her personalities were suffused with
her past lives. DID is a fascinating disorder and gives one some insight
into the power of the mind. Would it be too out there to assume that when
Melissa fragmented, her mind and soul chose personalities best suited to
dealing with the dissociation from her past lives?
<<Perhaps the thing that disturbs me the most about the decision by the
creators to close the door once and for all on a more meaningful
relationship between Mulder and Scully is an image that I can't shake,
of the writers sitting around and giggling nastily over how much this
will upset some of the fans.>>
This is unfair and a slap in the face to the writers. They don't give two
sticks about cheesing off the fans. Their agenda is to create and they
did that in spades with TFWID.
Mishka writes:
<<Am I the only one who believes platonic relationships with special
people
in our lives can be as strong, even stronger, than a relationship between
lovers? >>
Although sometimes it may seem like it, you are most definitely not alone!
I loved your take on this episode, BTW. Very well said.
Cathy writes:
<<Having Scully be the father and Mulder the child in a past life doesn't
mean that they can't be close; it means they can't be equal, and it
also means that they can't be "life partners.">>
Again, I don't think you're giving enough credence to the strengths of
those relationships. Mulder and Scully are most definitely life-partners,
just not romantic ones!
Deb writes:
<< In Scully, Mulder has "found" his sister. The ultimate companion.
She'll
always be there to support him, comfort him and listen to him. And he'll
always be
there for her.>>
Beautiful, Deb. Another way the episode resonates!
Paula writes:
<< Whatever they
were to each other in their past lives (and we only saw a few of what I
assume is a multitude of lives) is not a clue to me as to how they
*must* feel about each other in this life.>>
Excellent point. I think people might be taking this episode a little too
much at face value.\
****************************
PAULSON AND MOTT IN '96!!!!!
****************************
madse004
In article <cassandr-101...@hd26-157.compuserve.com>,
cass...@sprynet.com (Cassandra) wrote:
> In article <5657uh$c...@news.interlog.com>, ksi...@interlog.com wrote:
>
> > People are feeling distress (among those who are feeling distress,
> > which is not everyone) because of this modern assumption that one
> > person MUST fill all these roles or be of secondary importance or at
> > least not a "real soul mate". It _could_ be argued that there is an
> > inherent tension in Mulder's current life because he (like most of us
> > contemporary people) also believes this, and while the important roles
> > in his life have been filled by two (or more) people in past lives it
> > is taken for granted that they
ATTENTION, ATTENTION--should be filled by only one person in this life ...
whatever. ATTENTION, ATTENTION. deb or whatever, I think she means you.
You're welcome.
Doc Aay
I'm just trying to point out that we're
> > superimposing some very contemporary contents on historical events
> > here.
> >
>
> But if our souls have been coming back again & again to learn throughout
> history, doesn't this kind of imply that all those dead historical people
> had the wrong idea & we've only recently wised up on this score? <vb ;)>
> Unless of course we're all regressing ... which I don't necessarily find
> hard to believe!
>
Deb Mikels
In article <19961112190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
para...@aol.com wrote:
>Cathy:
<<This relationship, we are told, is not the tightly
> spinning core of all the hope in the universe, the ultimate trust, the
> purest love. Mulder and Scully are cosmic pals and nothing more, and
> Scully is merely a satellite orbiting around Mulder, who spins not with
> her but with Sarah/Melissa.>>
>
> I'm really sorry that you see these developments in this way. I didn't
> know how Shippers were going to feel but now I've got a pretty good idea.
> ;-) I think this episode brought Mulder and Scully closer together
********************************************************************************
That's interesting, because I consider myself as falling somewhere between
shipper and nonshipper, but I couldn't agree more with Cathy's original
post when she noted that something seemed inexplicably "off" in this
episode; the notion that Mulder has several, even a key soulmate, who's
bond may be equal to, or even more important, than his bond to Scully. I
also couldn't help my give a little credence to the notion that CC and
pals M&W were indeed trying to deliver "the friends--and friends only"
message to shippers in a less than subtle manner. After all, CC has said
"Never" on several occasions, but many of us are just not sure we want to
believe. I, too, felt that they were closing off some possibilities, and
that was unneccessary.
********************************************************************************
> << Mulder has someone
> else who is matters more to him. Someone he loves more deeply, trusts
> more completely (if he doesn't, she isn't much of a soulmate) and is
> bound to more tightly. Why, then, should he and Scully bother to watch
> each other's backs the way they do, to sacrifice themselves every day
> for the other? It's as if they're merely going through the motions.>>
>
> See above. There is no indication that Mulder feels more strongly for
> Melissa. None at all. They were destined to be together only for a short
> while in this life and this idea played itself out in the field. This was
> their Moment. And then Mulder rejoined Scully, his eternal friend.
> Mulder and Scully's Moment is their partnership, their lives.
********************************************************************************
BUT, I also saw NO indication that Mulder feels more strongly for Scully
either. Maybe it's all in the interpretation of the regression scenes, but
considering dialogue and acting during Mulder's regression , although he
seemed saddened by his father's (Scully) death, and gave a fond smile
regarding the discussion of sargeant "Scully", he seemed much more
emotional when referring to Melissa's roles, i.e. "We're always torn
apart; she doesn't know; we will live again..."
Then after more M&S squabbling (something that seems to be becoming more
bitter with each season) Mulder makes the decision to enter the compound,
choosing to leave Scully's side to risk his life to go to Melissa. Makes
we wonder about the message behind the depths of these differing
bonds/soulmate roles. Even the "If we'd known we've always been friends...
wouldn't change a day " lines could be interpreted as Scully's acceptance
of this more peripheral role in Mulder's life, i.e. she's just happy to
have whatever she has with Mulder, even if her role is secondary, or
forever limited and defined by fate.
********************************************************************************
> Mishka writes:
> <<Am I the only one who believes platonic relationships with special
> people
> in our lives can be as strong, even stronger, than a relationship between
> lovers? >>
********************************************************************************
While I agree that this is a wonderful notion, there is no more evidence
of this being true on the show than the shipper contention that M&S
secretly love each other and are just not ready to act on it. It is in a
sense, yet another of many beautiful rationalizations that exist on both
sides of shippers, i.e an attempt to make the episodes and
characterizations fit their interpretation of the M&S relationship. The
real interpretation must come from the creators and writers, and they're
not exactly being very forthright. As I said, I saw no evidence in THIS
episode that Scully was more important to Mulder than his eternal romantic
soulmate. But I sure hope she is ;-)
********************************************************************************
>I think people might be taking this episode a little too
> much at face value.
********************************************************************************
Hopefully, and I am glad to see that the next episode has picked up with
things seemingly back to "normal." However, I'm still left with the
feeling that CC and M&W's attempt to define the M&S relationship has set
up some intential limits and boundaries, which is unfortunate. I can't
help but think the special dynamic between M&S (M&S alone against the
world) --but now with the addition of a few more soulmates thrown into the
mix-- has forever been altered in many viewers minds.
Catherine J. Blatz
Cassandra wrote:
>
> > I wacthed my very last Millenium on Friday. I just can't take the
> > gloomy, deprressing, scary worldview it promulgates.
> >
> > I am still watching X-Files, but with a leaden heart. I am not a
> > relationshipper, i am just someone who likes unresolved sexual tension
> > and wanted to believe that in the end these emotionally crippled
> > characters would affirm their value to one another in a sexual way.
>
> rather an optimistic show, b/c it showed that anything was possible. I
> think it maybe used to be, but it's lost a lot of that. Now it seems to
> wallow in its darkness & downbeat fatalism. Frankly, I think CC has been
> reading "The Wasteland" & contemplating the end of the century *way* too
> much for the show's good! Dark is interesting & different for television
> ... but I think it becomes wearying to watch after a while. I work at a
> newspaper, so I hear about all sorts of disturbing things every day. I
> don't necessarily want to revisit them constantly in my entertainment.
> Sometimes you just need a little hope.
>
> The possibility of affirmation that you mention is a bit of light & hope
> amid all the horror & pain; if that's not there, then it sucks a lot of
> the joy of watching out of it for me. Because I cannot believe that when
> all is said & done, Mulder will find Samantha & the Truth, Good will
> ultimately prevail over Evil and everything will be peace & light &
> harmony because of it. That's not realistic, and it's sure not XF's style.
> I don't think Mulder will ever be able to find the real & all-encompassing
> Truth; but I hoped that maybe he could come away with at least some
> personal Truths that would bring him some much-needed comfort & peace. I
> always saw a lasting romantic relationship b/t M&S as one positive
> possibility that could be realistically salvaged from all the angst &
> despair. I mean, life-long friends is good, I just think these two
> tortured characters deserve a lot more after all they've suffered. (And,
> yes, believe me, I *know* life isn't fair like that! <g>)
Yes, I very much agree. Maybe some would consider that this means I'm
not of the right "temprament" for watching XF, and that I should amuse
myself with Home Improvement instead - but I simply can't take gloom and
doom with no break, ever. That's one of the main reasons why I'm having
trouble with Millennium. (For the record, the other two main reasons
are that (a) Catherine has nothing to do but look scared/not scared/
supportive, and (b) I feel that having Frank receive psychic visions
about what happened BEFORE he's seen any evidence is a cheat and a plot
device.) I need some break, some humor, some reassurance that, in this
"world," *all* is not lost - even if *most* is. I don't like books with
horrible endings. I don't need all the mean people to get nice and all
the problems to be magically solved, but I like to have SOME shred of
hope at the end.
I, too, would like to believe that maybe someday M & S's nightmare will
be over, and they will each find some measure of happiness with the one
person who has seemed to make them happy throughout the course of the
show - the other. Again, I don't need to see it, and again, it doesn't
even have to be romantic necessarily. I just want to know that, when
they finish investigating the X-Files and finish working for the FBI,
they will still be partners, and when one of them has a nightmare he/she
will not have to go back to sleep lonely.
> Snipped from another thread:
>
> <For me, the problem comes down to a lack of continuity editing. There
> should be a story editor reviewing all the episodes before they are
> filmed and commenting on whether or not they are consistent in terms of
> characterization (e.g. Mulder and Scully's relationship) or plotting
> (e.g. Cancerman as a Gestapo soldier). I assume such a job description
> exists and that someone is drawing pay for the work -- but he or she is
> incompetent. The series is suffering because of this. >
>
> I heartily agree! Their lack of continuity is getting more & more
> ridiculous; it's almost a joke. It reflects badly on the show; if they
> can't get the "little" things right, how are we supposed to trust them
> with the "big" things? (We hear about this all the time at work about
> facts & copy-editing!)
Hey, me too - I work for a magazine. (Though *I'm* usually the one
bugging everyone about having all the hyphens in the right places...)
And yeah, this is one of my major problems with "TFWID," and why I'm
afraid I won't be able to simply watch anymore without wondering if
what's happening is "supposed to" happen. I really don't care to be
second-guessing them. It's wearisome.
> Cassandra
>
> --
> "Sometimes I think we buy a ticket to Gilbert & Sullivan, and when we go into the theater, we find the play is by Harold Pinter." -- Bill Moyers
Cathy
--
Catherine J. Blatz
============================================================
Starveling and Loxy
para...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I think you might be reading a little more into this situation than
> it really requires.
Regarding the issue of Mulder and Scully having any sort of intimate
relationship, I've been listening to people desiring this for some time.
I think the above statement, though taken out of context, says a great
deal about those who search through every episode for a knowing glance
or telling phrase.
The TV series is unique in many ways, but one of the primary differences
between X-Files and any other television program past or present which
features a male/female partnership is that despite the alleged sexual
tension, there is no physical relationship. This is refreshing, and
realistic. In TV land, it seems that any time two people of opposing
genders meet, sparks fly and romance is in the air, and this is simply
not a reflection of realism.
By no means must TV be identical to realism. Some aspects of X-Files are
admittedly farfetched and reaching at times, but it should at least
reflect realism. I recall finding episodes of The Love Boat in which
three couples per week fell in love and had happy endings MUCH harder to
believe than any episode of The X-Files.
We have been subjected to a number of programs in the past which seem to
act as if romance is inevitable, and friendship is unimportant. X-Files
goes about the subject in the exact opposite direction.
I for one hope it continues to go that way. I wish I could convince
other vocal fans of the show, writing letters to Chris Carter or
otherwise trying to impress upon the X-Files writers and staff, that
there really is no need to generate a love relationship between these
two characters.
Love already exists between these two characters. The love of friends.
The trust of partners with one another's lives. They seem more like
brother and sister than potential sweetmates. To incorporate into the
series a more sexual or romantic relationship would risk affecting the
chemistry in a way not conducive to the show's success and potential.
Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name basis.
That alone should tell you something about the direction the writers
have chosen to go.
Please, for the love of God, let their friendship and their partnership
speak for itself.
--
Located Somewhere Near the Moon,
Robin Starveling
http://rampages.onramp.net/~myst/
Lee Burwasser
Starveling and Loxy wrote:
[snip ]]
> The trust of partners with one another's lives.
Another ally! Let's hear it!
[[snip ]]
> Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name basis.
> That alone should tell you something about the direction the writers
> have chosen to go.
By now, actually, their last-name schtick has taken on the potential of
insult-as-endearment -- like calling a friend "you ugly bastard."
Surname without honorific is a definite put-down, but if they ever get
back to speaking affectionately to each other, it will once more have
the flavor of pet names.
> Please, for the love of God, let their friendship and their partnership
> speak for itself.
It would be nice if it did speak up. If people are having such a
problem with the situation, why not have an episode with a matchmaker
going into that "admit you're *really* in love" bit, and whichever of
the partners is being harassed says, quietly and clamly, "Of course it's
love, but not the love you're hoping for."
Lee Burwasser lburw...@crs.loc.gov
Landover MD USA
*working stiff--don't blame me for policy*
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
In <56bfv4$3...@argentina.earthlink.net> Gia Gittleson
<gi...@earthlink.net> writes:
>This sexless marriage also contributes to CB being an mere adjunct in
>the MLLNNM plotline. Oh well.
Just so you all know, a mere adjunct is NOT the sex
passage of a female horse....that's what I thought, too, but I just
looked it up.......
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXX
(who now keeps a dictionary RIGHT by her monitor, 'cause besides being
a lousey spelerr, she learns a new word EVERY DAY)
Starveling and Loxy
WARNING: At the bottom of this message there is a POTENTIAL MILD SPOILER
TO THIS SUNDAY'S EPISODE FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE PROMOTIONAL
FOOTAGE. BUT THEN, WHO IN THIS NEWSGROUP >>>HASN'T<<< SEEN THE
PROMOTIONAL FOOTAGE?
camgib wrote:
>
> More about the relationships:
> And when they do call each other by their first names, it's usually
> because they feel the need to express understanding, reception, and
> friendship. It's usually after some horrific experience. However I've
> never seen Dana call Mulder by his first name...
I do, but can't remember the episode. Think they were in the car. Dana
said "Fox," and he looked at her and said, "When I was a kid I even
asked my parents to call me Mulder." It was one of the episodes I've
seen most recently, but not a new one this season. So it must be one of
the ones presently available on sale on video, from the first season.
Right after Scully's father died, Mulder called her Dana, in an attempt
to show sincerity. Gillian Anderson's response to that tells so much in
a way that the lines in the script could not have possibly conveyed.
With one word Mulder made what was already a troublesome time for her
that much more puzzling. She just wanted to get back to work. She didn't
want things to change.
> It reminds me so much of a few platonic friendships with women that
> are still pretty strong. I'm gay, so women don't interest me much. Of
> course, that's one of the (minor) reasons why I'm still watching the
> X-Files.
Man, ya don't know what yer missing! (smirk) but then neither do I, eh?
=) To each his own.
I've had relationships in which there was sexual tension. Sometimes they
were realized. Sometimes they were not. That happens. Just because a guy
and a girl work together alot doesn't mean it's written in stone
somewhere that they HAVE to get in the sack. And it doesn't mean one of
them is gay, which I've heard others say before in newsgroups.
Sometimes it's best left NOT realized. Sometimes it's a pleasant
experience. Sometimes you're left wondering.
X-Files is more realistic because of the friendship AND the potential
UST. I can recall an episode of The Love Boat in which the ship's
recreations director had a fling with one of the regular guys on the
show, after three or four seasons of their just being friends. It was so
hokey and unbelievable, but then the whole series Love Boat was horrid
and unbelievable. I hope X-Files never becomes a series that one CAN
compare to something as hokey as The Love Boat.
> If I wanted a romantic movie or tv show I could always find it
> elsewhere. I.E.: "Sleepless in Seattle".
I never could bring myself to watch that movie. I like X-Files partly
BECAUSE it's not a sappy Moonlighting clone or something.
> <Sigh.> I just hope this Sunday's episode would bring more positive
> recations from this alt.tv.x-files newsgroup.
Where we find out Cancer Man is just an average joe who happened to blow
away a president, then blame it on someone else?
HA! Not very likely. =)
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
>More about the relationships:
>
>Robin Starveling wrote:
>>Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name
>basis.
Names are funny; they are the most personal thing we have,
the one thing NO ONE can take from us, and one of the BEST ways to
REALLY hurt someone's feelings, is to make fun of their name...they are
totally defenseless, and it is entirely OUT of their hands.
My earth partner NEVER calls me by my earth name...never. When
he must introduce me in public, and DOES call me the C-word, I am
always tempted to look behind me, and see who he is talking about.
Fortunatly, this does not happen often...face it, would YOU take me out
in public?????
XXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXX
catherine yronwode
> >>Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that [...]he views the
> >>spark of pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
> >
> >You've got something here, Cat
> >
> >There's not a scintilla of passion in their marriage. I'm not asking
> >for full-on tantric sex on the hood of a Buick
WHY NOT???
Wouldn't watching that be more fun than watching the puppy pee? A 1953
chopped, nosed, and decked Buick painted candy apple burgundy with
silver ghost flames would form a fine altar upon which Frank and
Catherine could conjoin in magnetic yab-yum embrace.
I'd watch it!
catherine yronwode * mailto:c...@luckymojo.com * http://www.luckymojo.com
* Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/LuckyW.html *
* The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredlandscape.html *
* Karezza and Tantra: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html *
Antoinette Reinhart
all right!!! the giz is reading this ng too.....shouldn't be long before
it gets REALLY interesting here.
and who really cares if frank and catherine "do it"??? sheesh. that's
*not* a motivation for a character like black. *protective* instincts,
yes....*lustful* perhaps....
oh yeah. CB is not just an "adjunct" ....she serves as black's conscience,
his ability to "step back" from the horrors he sees...she knows what he
does (i.e., the burden he carries....well, maybe not the
polaroids..whatever happened to that little subplot anyway???),
but she is objective enough to see what he can't sometimes....
and anyway...sex ends after marriage (or so i hear.....) <g>
.....tuti....hoping to god that she doesn't find out in seven months that
sex really *does* end after marriage....<sob>
Cassandra
> Yes, I very much agree. Maybe some would consider that this means I'm
> not of the right "temprament" for watching XF, and that I should amuse
> myself with Home Improvement instead - but I simply can't take gloom and
> doom with no break, ever. That's one of the main reasons why I'm having
> trouble with Millennium. (For the record, the other two main reasons
> are that (a) Catherine has nothing to do but look scared/not scared/
> supportive, and (b) I feel that having Frank receive psychic visions
> about what happened BEFORE he's seen any evidence is a cheat and a plot
> device.) I need some break, some humor, some reassurance that, in this
> "world," *all* is not lost - even if *most* is. I don't like books with
> horrible endings. I don't need all the mean people to get nice and all
> the problems to be magically solved, but I like to have SOME shred of
> hope at the end.
>
> I, too, would like to believe that maybe someday M & S's nightmare will
> be over, and they will each find some measure of happiness with the one
> person who has seemed to make them happy throughout the course of the
> show - the other. Again, I don't need to see it, and again, it doesn't
> even have to be romantic necessarily. I just want to know that, when
> they finish investigating the X-Files and finish working for the FBI,
> they will still be partners, and when one of them has a nightmare he/she
> will not have to go back to sleep lonely.
Exactly. It all comes down to hope. Even if a show is as dark & depressing
& torturous as can be, if it includes that little bit of hope, then it's
bearable. Take that hope away, and it becomes unbearable. Now, maybe they
can say, well, there's always the next go-round on the Reincarnation
Roulette Wheel, but that doesn't strike me personally as particularly
cheery. No. 1, I think they're waaaay overdue for some happiness in *this*
lifetime, Mr. Holder of Karmic Destiny! And No. 2, I doubt we'll get to
see the series, "X-Files: The Next Reincarnation", so we need to take
gratification where we can get it! <bg>
I guess my problem is that I saw a possible M&S relationship as the only
good, realistic hope that could come from all this -- as I said, I just
don't believe that finding the Truth will set them free. They've been
tormented too much to make the Truth/finding Samantha some wonderous
panacea that will instantly turn them into happy, skipping Smurfs. They
have Major Issues to work out, and I just think they stand a heck of a lot
better chance working them out together than sitting around for the rest
of their lives moping after dead "soulmates" between conspiracies,
autopsies and porn videos.
Darn it, I'm too cynical to enjoy "Home Improvement" & too romantic to
enjoy completely bleak world views!
Kyonghun Lee
catherine yronwode wrote:
> A 1953
> chopped, nosed, and decked Buick painted candy apple burgundy with
> silver ghost flames would form a fine altar upon which Frank and
> Catherine could conjoin in magnetic yab-yum embrace.
Well those settings USED to make me interested in an instant, but
after that fateful X-Files episode called "Home" it just doesn't invoke
the
same imageries. I still don't want to know what that guy did with his
mom in the
trunk of that ol Cadilac...
Kyong
--
_________________________________________________________________________
|Kyonghun Lee |
| | \ / | Class of '93 | || || | Class of 199X |
| | \/ | University of \ \/ /\ \/ / University of Wisconsin |
| | |\ /| | Michigan Mech.E. \ / \ / Mechanical Engineering |
|| |\/| | Go Blue! | | | | Go Badgers?...NOT! |
|kyon...@cae.wisc.edu & http://smartcad.me.wisc.edu/~kyonghun/kh.html
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
camgib
More about the relationships:
Robin Starveling wrote:
>Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name >basis. That alone should tell you something about the direction the >writers have chosen to go.
And when they do call each other by their first names, it's usually
because they feel the need to express understanding, reception, and
friendship. It's usually after some horrific experience. However I've
never seen Dana call Mulder by his first name...
It reminds me so much of a few platonic friendships with women that are
still pretty strong. I'm gay, so women don't interest me much. Of
course, that's one of the (minor) reasons why I'm still watching the
X-Files.
If I wanted a romantic movie or tv show I could always find it
elsewhere. I.E.: "Sleepless in Seattle".
You don't need it here. It's all about science fiction, and the extreme
possibilities in the controlled environment of the "real world."
<Sigh.> I just hope this Sunday's episode would bring more positive
recations from this alt.tv.x-files newsgroup.
cam gib
Nick Pedicini
catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in article
<328A52...@luckymojo.com>...
> Gia Gittleson wrote:
>
> > >>Taking a look at his other show,
> > >>Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that [...]he views the
> > >>hero as an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a
> > >>spark of pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
> > >
> > >for full-on tantric sex on the hood of a Buick
>
You know, kids, the Black's would probably be Scully/Mulder about ten years
down the line. And don't give me crap about Scully being a strong
independent etc etc and Catherine Black being a homey housewife. What I'm
getting at is that *that* is the way Fearless Creator would write it.
Some of the difference between these shows is a matter of timing. But hell,
then we could sit around the campfire and complain about the quality of
S&M's home life as opposed to sitting around complaining about the lack of
it.
NJP
grav...@aol.com
Considering the limited chemistry I sense between the characters of Frank
Black and Catherine Black, I'm wondering if CC also declared that "You'll
NEVER see a romance between Frank and Catherine." <g>
Paula G.
Cassandra
In article <dsmikels-121...@198.150.173.53>,
dsmi...@mail.wiscnet.net (Deb Mikels) wrote:
********************************************************************************
> That's interesting, because I consider myself as falling somewhere between
> shipper and nonshipper, but I couldn't agree more with Cathy's original
> post when she noted that something seemed inexplicably "off" in this
> episode; the notion that Mulder has several, even a key soulmate, who's
> bond may be equal to, or even more important, than his bond to Scully. I
> also couldn't help my give a little credence to the notion that CC and
> pals M&W were indeed trying to deliver "the friends--and friends only"
> message to shippers in a less than subtle manner. After all, CC has said
> "Never" on several occasions, but many of us are just not sure we want to
> believe. I, too, felt that they were closing off some possibilities, and
> that was unneccessary.
> <snip,snip>
********************************************************************************
> Hopefully, and I am glad to see that the next episode has picked up with
> things seemingly back to "normal." However, I'm still left with the
> feeling that CC and M&W's attempt to define the M&S relationship has set
> up some intential limits and boundaries, which is unfortunate. I can't
> help but think the special dynamic between M&S (M&S alone against the
> world) --but now with the addition of a few more soulmates thrown into the
> mix-- has forever been altered in many viewers minds.
I just can't imagine how they would think that the introduction of a
multitude of soulmates would *improve* the dynamic. Just bends that
wonderful, tight, special, ain't-seen-it-on-any-other-show Magic Circle
all out of shape. And to insert Melissa's soul-bond possibly between M&S's
... well, I just don't think that you can introduce a relationship in one
episode -- no matter how well-acted & sympathetically portrayed -- and
expect it to equal the power of a relationship that's been built carefully
over 3+ years. It's just not going to have the same resonance. I don't
know that they *expected* it to, but they sure seemed to treat it with a
lot of reverence, as if they wanted us to do the same. I'm sorry, but
that's like flashing the "Applause" sign for the studio audience -- you
may clap, but, *darn* it's half-hearted!
para...@aol.com
Cathy writes:
<<That's one of the main reasons why I'm having
trouble with Millennium. (For the record, the other two main reasons
are that (a) Catherine has nothing to do but look scared/not scared/
supportive, and (b) I feel that having Frank receive psychic visions
about what happened BEFORE he's seen any evidence is a cheat and a plot
device.) I need some break, some humor, some reassurance that, in this
"world," *all* is not lost - even if *most* is. I don't like books with
horrible endings. I don't need all the mean people to get nice and all
the problems to be magically solved, but I like to have SOME shred of
hope at the end.>>
I absolutely love darkness but I couldn't agree with you more! Even if
the character is put through hell and his life takes a somewhat downward
turn, he must learn something. There must be a point to his journey.
It's interesting hearing people talk about Millennium and what a downer it
is, and this just reinforces my idea that CC does NOT have a handle on
this show. I heard him interviewed about Millennium (is there an
abbreviation we can use here??) and he said the whole reason he created
the show was for the yellow house. It's a very optimistic view. I adore
this idea and this theme but CC, when are you gonna do something about
it??
Deb writes:
<<<<That's interesting, because I consider myself as falling somewhere
between
shipper and nonshipper, but I couldn't agree more with Cathy's original
post when she noted that something seemed inexplicably "off" in this
episode; the notion that Mulder has several, even a key soulmate, who's
bond may be equal to, or even more important, than his bond to Scully.>>
This is definitely interesting!! I've found that the fan-base seems to be
pretty evenly divided between people who believe the episode brought
Mulder and Scully closer together and those who felt it subordinated
Scully. Oddly enough, though the Shippers seem to fall into the latter
category, a lot of NoRomos and what have you ALSO believe this. Different
strokes, I suppose.
<< I
also couldn't help my give a little credence to the notion that CC and
pals M&W were indeed trying to deliver "the friends--and friends only"
message to shippers in a less than subtle manner. After all, CC has said
"Never" on several occasions, but many of us are just not sure we want to
believe. I, too, felt that they were closing off some possibilities, and
that was unneccessary. >>
And the former view unfortunately leads to this one. Morgan and Wong did
NOT intend to deliver any message to the Shippers. They wrote what was in
their hearts and their minds and it happens to be their viewpoint and the
way they see and interpret the characters. They did NOT have any agenda
in this episode other than to write the best episode they could and treat
the characters and situations with respect. I feel they accomplished this
mightily. Others don't. But the writers don't deserve the paranoia <g>.
para...@aol.com
Robin writes:
<<Love already exists between these two characters. The love of friends.
brother and sister than potential sweetmates. To incorporate into the
series a more sexual or romantic relationship would risk affecting the
chemistry in a way not conducive to the show's success and potential. >>
Abso-friggin'-lutely!!! Couldn't agree more. VERY well-said.
whatever
> >>
> >> >>Taking a look at his other show,
> >> >>Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that [...]he views the
> >> >>hero as an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a
> >> >>spark of pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >for full-on tantric sex on the hood of a Buick
> >
> >
> >Wouldn't watching that be more fun than watching the puppy pee? A 1953
> >chopped, nosed, and decked Buick painted candy apple burgundy with
> >silver ghost flames would form a fine altar upon which Frank and
> >Catherine could conjoin in magnetic yab-yum embrace.
> >
> >
> >catherine yronwode * mailto:c...@luckymojo.com * http://www.luckymojo.com
> > * Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/LuckyW.html *
> >* The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredlandscape.html *
> > * Karezza and Tantra: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html *
> >for discussions about folkloric magic, ask your ISP for news:alt.lucky.w
>
> mounted yantra position.
* Me, too! But Squirrel would have to be on top... ;)
deb...or whatever.
>
> best,
> Gia
Nick Pedicini
Gia Gittleson <gi...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<56dr83$4...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> "Nick Pedicini" <jny...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in article
> ><328A52...@luckymojo.com>...
> >> Gia Gittleson wrote:
>
> >You know, kids, the Black's would probably be Scully/Mulder about ten
years
> >down the line. And don't give me crap about Scully being a strong
> >independent etc etc and Catherine Black being a homey housewife. What
I'm
> >getting at is that *that* is the way Fearless Creator would write it.
>
>
> there. :)
Ex-ACT-ly my point, GG. (I used to ride the GG train, you know.)
Seems to me that the average shipper postulates this warm and fuzzy caring
equal etc etc relationship were Mr Carter to rethink his position on Moose
and Squirrel and toss them together. I would hold that the Black's are more
indicative of what would come out of a M&S union than the kind of X-files
Green Acres world that a lot of shippers cobble up.
That and I think that the current state of the Blacks relationship is still
aborning. The family sets up as a thematic offset to Franks work and, in
the initial stages, seems a bit contrived. (Yellow house, apple cheeked
child etc.) I think this too will pass. Mostly because I trust the writer
and the actors to take what is given and make something out of it.
NJP
M.J. McCall
>giz...@ix.netcom.com(Coleen Sullivan-Baier) wrote:
> Just so you all know, a mere adjunct is NOT the sex
>passage of a female horse....that's what I thought, too, but I just
>looked it up.......
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> (who now keeps a dictionary RIGHT by her monitor, 'cause besides being
>a lousey spelerr, she learns a new word EVERY DAY)
I think it's time to post a general warning: Never, under any circumstances,
open a Gizzie post without first 1) putting down any beverage you might be
in the process of drinking, 2) swallow any fluids you might have already imbibed,
3) never attempt to hold anything in your hands, nor have them anywhere near
the keyboard aside from the necessary keystrokes, 4) look around you to make
sure no one is standing within range of maniacal laughter, 5) be sure you have
gone to the bathroom recently....
MJ (sighs, "I knew better")
rosencrantz
On 13 Nov 1996, Coleen Sullivan-Baier wrote:
>
> >More about the relationships:
> >
> >Robin Starveling wrote:
> >>Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name
> >basis.
>
> Names are funny; they are the most personal thing we have,
> the one thing NO ONE can take from us,
Um... ever see "The Prisoner" or "Nowhere Man"?
:)
Curiouser and curiouser...
"Heads."
Rosencrantz
"I grow old, I grow old... I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled."
- T. S. Eliot, The Lovesong of
J. Alfred Prufrock
JS Michel
Starveling and Loxy wrote:
>
> WARNING: At the bottom of this message there is a POTENTIAL MILD SPOILER
> TO THIS SUNDAY'S EPISODE FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE PROMOTIONAL
> FOOTAGE. BUT THEN, WHO IN THIS NEWSGROUP >>>HASN'T<<< SEEN THE
> PROMOTIONAL FOOTAGE?
Just for the record, the Toronto area Global broadcast never shows
the following week's promo (they run extra ads instead). I don't
mind, since I'd rather watch the episode "clean" rather than biased
by (often misleading) promos. (In my opinion this is the only redeeming
feature of the Global broadcast, which otherwise consistently butchers
the show by adding an extra batch of ads two minutes before the end,
thus interrupting the flow of those crucial final scenes.)
In any case, thanks for the spoiler warning. I realize I'm in the
minority here but I really appreciate it!
-- JS --
Rufie710
In article <19961114063...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
para...@aol.com wrote:
> Robin writes:
> <<Love already exists between these two characters. The love of friends.
> The trust of partners with one another's lives. They seem more like
> brother and sister than potential sweetmates. To incorporate into the
> series a more sexual or romantic relationship would risk affecting the
> chemistry in a way not conducive to the show's success and potential. >>
>
> Abso-friggin'-lutely!!! Couldn't agree more. VERY well-said.
>
>
nah.......they should just jump all over each other, Ruth
--
rufie710
"I tried Reality once, I found it too confining"
whatever
madse004 wrote:
>
> In article <cassandr-101...@hd26-157.compuserve.com>,
> cass...@sprynet.com (Cassandra) wrote:
>
> > In article <5657uh$c...@news.interlog.com>, ksi...@interlog.com wrote:
> >
> > > People are feeling distress (among those who are feeling distress,
> > > which is not everyone) because of this modern assumption that one
> > > person MUST fill all these roles or be of secondary importance or at
> > > least not a "real soul mate". It _could_ be argued that there is an
> > > inherent tension in Mulder's current life because he (like most of us
> > > contemporary people) also believes this, and while the important roles
> > > in his life have been filled by two (or more) people in past lives it
> > > is taken for granted that they
>
> ATTENTION, ATTENTION--should be filled by only one person in this life ...
> whatever. ATTENTION, ATTENTION. deb or whatever, I think she means you.
* Hmmm... Does that mean that I'm one of the people to fill
Mulder's emotional needs? Or just, whatever? ;) Can I trade him in
for Skinner? <ducking>
Actually, (I think I've been using that word too much today!)
When you look at the meaning behind the words, the original post
(2 above this one.) has a sentiment to match my own.
As I've stated previously, IMO, American Society (I can't
speak for other cultures. But it would be nice to hear from them.)
is to hung up on opposite-sex friendships. The character of Fox
Mulder is the epitomy of this. How do you resolve the conflict of
someone that is closer to you and becoming (almost) more important
than your own sister?
If you want to take Moose's Hypnosis as a Real Past Life
experience, Squirrel has always been important to him and will
always be so. All of the people that he mentions are important
to him in this life also, but are in differing roles.
Personally, I think he used his subconsciousness to
justify the important people in this life by reassigning them
starring roles in previous ones. But. That is just my opinion. :)
Thank you.
> You're welcome.
> Doc Aay
* deb...or whatever.
>
> I'm just trying to point out that we're
> > > superimposing some very contemporary contents on historical events
> > > here.
> > >
> >
> > But if our souls have been coming back again & again to learn throughout
> > history, doesn't this kind of imply that all those dead historical people
> > had the wrong idea & we've only recently wised up on this score? <vb ;)>
> > Unless of course we're all regressing ... which I don't necessarily find
> > hard to believe!
> >
whatever
Coleen Sullivan-Baier wrote:
>
> >More about the relationships:
> >
> >Robin Starveling wrote:
> >>Scully and Mulder can't even speak to one another on a first name
> >basis.
>
> Names are funny; they are the most personal thing we have,
> REALLY hurt someone's feelings, is to make fun of their name...they are
> totally defenseless, and it is entirely OUT of their hands.
>
> My earth partner NEVER calls me by my earth name...never. When
> he must introduce me in public, and DOES call me the C-word, I am
> always tempted to look behind me, and see who he is talking about.
> Fortunatly, this does not happen often...face it, would YOU take me out
> in public?????
>
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXX
* With pleasure! I think you're fun... He must, too. :)
deb...or whatever.
deering
Nick Pedicini (jny...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: That and I think that the current state of the Blacks relationship is still
: aborning. The family sets up as a thematic offset to Franks work and, in
: the initial stages, seems a bit contrived. (Yellow house, apple cheeked
: child etc.) I think this too will pass. Mostly because I trust the writer
: and the actors to take what is given and make something out of it.
Hmpf! If CC is gonna do something with these characters, he'd better do it
damm _quick_. Frank's personal life should have been developed from the
start with as much care and time as has gone into detailing the
elaborate murder methods and twisty investigations he gets involved in
professionally. Because it hasn't, _that_ is the major reason why this
show is so emotionally muted and tedious, and
that, IMO, is the reason people aren't tuning back in. Say what you want
about Stephen King (in a related example), but he has an undeniable knack
for developing people one cares about and/or understands enough _from the
outset_ to want to follow them through any kind of horrors. CC simply
isn't giving _anyone_ here enough to work with (or, in the case of the
wife and daughter, is giving them such vapid generic stuff to do that one
actively dislikes them--:)). In short, it is taking way too long for
"Mil." to kick into gear drama-wise, and all the potential in the world
isn't going to make up for that if the show just isn't delivering.
C.
**
Village Christian School Staff
We don't really want to turn this into another Moonlighting!
Catherine J. Blatz
OK...I have to mention, I'm getting just a little JUMPY here, because
I keep seeing these posts and I keep thinking you guys are discussing
MY sex life. :)
I mean, it's only a difference of 2 letters, so you can understand...
right??
BTW, Paula, I agree with you. There's enough electricity there to light
up a...small doghouse? Well, not brightly... :P
Cathy (not *too* paranoid)
--
Catherine J. Blatz
============================================================
Stoner: "Dude, what's wrong with you, you made me drop my toad!"
- "Quagmire"
============================================================
cja...@ix.netcom.com
Catherine J. Blatz
mis...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <3286C1...@ix.netcom.com>, "Catherine J. Blatz"
> <cja...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> <snip>
> >
> >I agree, as I mentioned in the review, that the most "special"
> >relationship doesn't have to be a sexual one. I guess, and I don't
> >think I really articulated this all that well, that my main issue with
> >Scully being what she was in Mulder's past lives is that they were not
> >portrayed as "equals."
<snip>
> >I see the writers' point that Scully keeps Mulder in line and so
> >forth, but I certainly don't consider her an authority figure to him.
<snip>
> Cathy --
> No, I don't feel that you're arguing with me, nor am I arguing with you
> =^). You've presented some really cool/thoughtful viewpoints on this. I
> guess I didn't understand originally what you said about M & S not being
> seen as equals in their past lives, or Scully being Mulder's eternal
> "sidekick". To me, a sidekick is an inferior. Apparently, you meant
> "sidekick" another way, maybe like any unequal partner, inferior or
> superior?
Pretty much. I guess I meant it in the sense that Scully and Mulder
were no longer portrayed as being focused only on each other - they
were saying (IMO) that Melissa and Mulder were now the reciprocal
"partners," and Scully was on a different level. Still important,
but not a "peer" kind of importance.
God, I'm having a hard time articulating this. Kind of disillusioning
when you consider that I was an English major. :) I have this image
in my mind of Mulder and Scully facing each other and a circle drawn
around them, very close, and Mulder and Scully spinning around slowly
within the circle. There are other larger circles drawn around the
first one, with other people - Ma Scully, Ma Mulder, Samantha, Skinner,
even Cancerman - spinning in them - close but not within M & S's own
circle. But now, after this ep, I have the image of Melissa having
been introduced next to Mulder, and an even smaller circle being drawn
around M and Melissa. Now Scully is in a circle with a smaller circle
containing Melissa and Mulder. OK, this is confusing - I'm sorry (but
I'm not going to attempt to draw it; I'm really bad with that ASCII
cartoon stuff :) ). Now Melissa is dead, of course, but I still feel
that Mulder is in his own circle, separate from Scully, for all
eternity. And I don't like that.
Yeah, this all comes from my mind - and I had a long day at work and
I'm tired, so don't take it as gospel (not that I think anyone would
:) ). I'm just trying to explain how I picture it and why I am
frustrated that Melissa has swept in and seemingly "snatched" the
intimacy (again, I stress, I'm not talking about sexual intimacy) that
M and S have been building for as long as we've known them.
> Sometimes I see the show presenting her as an inferior sidekick, like in
> last night's ep (IMO), Sanguinarium (won't add spoilers here). Where
> Mulder always comes up with the bright ideas and he just tells Scully "why
> don't you have this analysed?" But I felt in TFWID, which has become a
> very special ep to me, Scully's role as one of Mulder's soulmates made her
> way more than a sidekick, inferior or superior.
I *am* glad that she has been in his "lives" in some form. And, when
I'm feeling optimistic, I do love the idea of the two of them fighting
for their beliefs, side by side, over and over again. But I'm selfish -
I wanted her to be his *only* soulmate, or his most important one,
anyway. And I felt that this episode stated otherwise.
> Yes, I think Morgan and Wong put her in the eternal authority figure role
> against Mulder because they wanted to remind us that she, in their vision,
> is the one who gently and lovingly keeps Mulder from flying off in all
> directions, like a good father/sergeant should to his child/soldier.
I like this too, to a degree. And I agree that Scully does take that
role quite often. But I feel that their relationship is more parallel
than that. As I said somewhere else in this post (I think I snipped
it), I think that each of them is occasionally the "child" in the
relationship. I used the example of Mulder being the child in
"Herrenvolk," when all he wanted to do was bring his sister home to
his mom, while Scully was dealing with reality (Skinner & Co.) and
picking up the pieces. And while I admit it's more rare, Scully was
more the child in "Irresistible" - she was trying to keep up with
the "big kids" the whole time, right up until the end, and Mulder was
trying to balance between allowing her to participate as much as she
was able, and gently encouraging her to bow out when it became too much.
She continued to be stubborn and to refuse to admit that she was in over
her head (I'm talking emotionally here) right up until the very end,
when Mulder had to physically force her to look at him and only then
was she able to break down and admit that she needed comfort. I'm not
saying anything against Scully here or trying to insinuate that she's
not strong or can't handle what she does - I just think she sometimes
isn't aware of her own (mainly emotional) limits, and in that sense she
needs to be "parented" by Mulder as well. She doesn't show much
emotion, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have them - she does, and
she doesn't deal with them very well (i.e., not at all - at least
Mulder expresses his, usually by running off on strange quests at the
drop of a hat).
While Mulder does need more of that type of guidance, I don't see Scully
as the "parent." Mostly I tend to think of her as the sibling who
follows her brother around and keeps saying, "We're going to get in
trouble." He doesn't care that they're going to get in trouble, and she
can't do anything but try to keep up. And they do get in trouble, and
when she sees it coming again she sighs wearily and tries to keep it
from happening, but she knows she really can't stop him once he gets
going.
I see theirs as a unique symbiotic relationship - she learns from him,
he learns from her, she helps him, he helps her, and they muddle
through. It's not that one can't have this kind of relationship with a
parent or a superior (or sergeant). It's just that that isn't how I
see *this* relationship.
I'm
> also leaning towards the theory that Morgan and Wong want us to have
> serious doubts that Mulder's regression memories were genuine, and they
> wanted to give Mulder a chance to reveal how he REALLY feels about his
> relationship with Scully. I'm just saying that I think that their
> "eternal" relationship, real or only in Mulder's subconscious, is a much
> more positive one than we've ever been given in the show.
I didn't consider this the first time I saw the episode, but I've seen
many people suggest it. I would certainly like to believe that it's
true. Having Mulder's "regression" be merely a product of his
subconscious mind is an idea that I find really interesting (and it
would make me feel better, certainly, if there was nothing to the
Mulder/Melissa thing). I don't know if I have enough faith in the
writers, however, not to believe that they simply screwed up with all
the plot holes. I'd *like* to think that they did it on purpose. But
Morgan & Wong have never been meticulous about plots, preferring to
concentrate on the characters (two guys after my own heart :) ). My
cynical side believes that they simply didn't think it through.
> >Having Scully be the father and Mulder the child in a past life doesn't
> >mean that they can't be close; it means they can't be equal, and it
> >also means that they can't be "life partners." Again, I'd feel OK if
> >they were simply close friends for the rest of this life - but not if
> >Mulder has someone else whom he's closer to, in a more reciprocative
> >(is that a word?) way. Your father is someone you love dearly, but also
> >someone you leave at the end of childhood to begin your "real" life.
> >Your superior is someone you respect, perhaps even love, but again it's
> >not an equal relationship.
>
> Good points, again. Fundamentally, though, is one soul worth more than
> another,just because on earth one has a subordinate position to another?
> Is my boss more important as a human being than I am just because he's
> risen to a higher position in our careers than I have? To bring this back
> to examples from the show, I've never been in a war and had a sergeant
> teach me how to stay alive, but from what I understand the
> soldier/sergeant relationship under fire can be indescribably close, a
> kind of lifetime bond. Although I'm on my own and independent of my
> father, I will never leave him spiritually, even after he's dead, and he
> will always be with me. Even at age 34, there are times when I need my
> dad, and although he's very ill and can't be there for me, what he was to
> me as a child gets me through those hard times. (I'm starting to cry now;
> I'll try not to short out my keyboard.)
Oh Mishka, I certainly didn't mean to imply that a father/child
relationship isn't one of the closest and most cherished on earth. I
am *very* close to both my parents; I can't imagine what I would do
if I lost one of them (God forbid). I know that, were anything to happen
to them, I wouldn't ever, ever leave them in spirit. I didn't mean that
someone who is "higher" in age, or a different generation or a greater
rank, is "higher" spiritually. I am 22 and I still feel very much a
child in a lot of ways. I used the example of a child leaving the nest
and moving on, but I didn't mean that, in doing so, our relationship
with our parents is lessened. The parent/child bond is the first and
most important in anyone's life, and rightly so. I feel very strongly
about that, and I certainly didn't intend to trivialize this very
special relationhsip. Again, it's just that I don't see the *M/S*
relationship this way.
Please accept my cyberhug. :)X
> But, spiritually, I don't feel my dad is my superior, nor is he really a
> superior to me as a human being. He has his faults. Maybe I feel this
> way because he wasn't the type of dad who pulled rank on me all the time;
> he respected me as a person, and managed to teach me what he did and keep
> me out of trouble through reason and mutual respect. A lot of people
> aren't fortunate enough to have dads like that (or soldiers have sergeants
> like that, sergeants who gain their soldier's respect because the
> sergeants deserve it, not because they outrank them).
>
> Still, I see your point about this not making Mulder and Scully's
> relationship neccesarily equal while they're on this earth; but, as we've
> seen their roles in the show, Scully has been anywhere from a glorified
> gofer to an equal in relation to Mulder, IMO. Up to now, I think many of
> us non-'shippers have hoped that they are close friends; sometimes we see
> that, sometimes they seem to be just annoyed with eachother (Quagmire,
> etc.), sometimes it seems to be all about sexual jealousy on the part of
> Scully and indifference by Mulder (Syzygy, War of the Bugs, etc.). That
> Mulder subconsciously sees her as something like a beloved (stress that,
> please) sergeant or father (or that their eternal relationship is destined
> to stay like that) is a step forward in the weekly question, "Just what IS
> Mulder and Scully's relationship?"
Again, assuming that it wasn't really "past lives" he was recalling,
just a subconscious ordering of his own life, I could definitely accept
that Mulder sees Scully as a parental figure (I could even accept that
he might see her as father rather than mother, since the "father" role
is traditionally, in our/their culture anyway, considered to be the
authoritarian one, and she is more of a rule-enforcer than a nurturer).
But I would also expect to see the idea that Mulder feels very
responsible for and protective of Scully come out in some form. Perhaps,
if I had written this, I would have had him recall one life in which
Scully was the authoritarian/care-giver, and one in which he was
responsible for her.
> >I very much see your point about spiritual vs. carnal love between
> >souls. I wouldn't mind so much if it were made clear that while Melissa
> >was destined to be Mulder's bedmate, Scully was destined to be the
> >one he was truly the closest to. But I felt we were being told that
> >*Melissa* was his "soulmate," the one he loved the most in all ways,
> >the one he was "meant to be" with. I felt that we were being shown that
> >Scully, while an important part of his life in both recalled lives, was
> >not the *most* important. That's what I meant by "sidekick," or by the
> >fact that Mulder and Melissa were orbiting each other while Scully was
> >a smaller, less crucial satellite orbiting Mulder.
>
> I think Mulder, in his conscious mind, went with the idea that Melissa was
> more important as a soulmate, just as many of us believe that romantic
> love is more important than the love between close friends and family
> members. But, like I tried to explain before, in his hypnosis I really
> felt like he was at least as distressed, if not more so, by the death of
> the Scully incarnation than he was by losing touch with Melissa's
> incarnation. Maybe that was just my interpretation of what I saw, and I
> was just reading what I wanted to see into the scene.
I guess this is where we diverge...though I didn't want to see it, I
felt that we were being told that *Melissa* was the focus of the bulk
of his grief. He did display a lot of emotion over the death of his
father/Scully, but he seemed more concerned with Melissa/Sarah in the
Civil War life. However, this is obviously a scene which can be
interpreted in many different ways. So maybe I'm reading into it as
well.
> >And, among other reasons which I've already stated, I don't like this
> >because Melissa is not someone we've ever met before or will ever see
> >again, and I resent being asked to accept her as the most important
> >person in Mulder's eternity. If they wanted that relationship to be so
> >important, they should have had her on the show from the beginning.
>
> Like I've said and tried to explain, I don't think TFWID neccesitates that
> Melissa was the most important person in Mulder's eternity. Please see
> above <g>. There also was a really interesting post today on this thread
> from someone about the idea of "soulmates" throughout the ages, that I
> think would back up what I've been trying to say.
Yeah, I really liked that post (thanks, whoever you were...sorry, I
can't remember now). Again, Mishka, this is our fundamental
disagreement...I thought that this *was* what they were trying to say,
even though I didn't think it should be so. I do wish I could see it
the other way (though I'm starting to feel better after this post and
others I've read from people who interpret the episode this way).
> In short, in different interpretations of what soulmates are throughout
> time, people have often theorized that there can be multiple kinds of
> soulmates in a person's lives -- romantic ones, friendship ones, etc.
> According to these viewpoints, romantic soulmates are not neccesarily the
> most important spiritual relationships. They're often quite inferior to
> others, kind of like what I said about "carnal" soulmate relationships vs.
> relationships between souls that go deeper than that.
I fully agree...again, I guess I'm just selfish...I wanted Mulder and
Scully to be best friends AND partners AND brother and sister AND
mutual caretakers AND comrades in battle AND, maybe, if they wanted
to be, lovers.
<snip>
> >I just don't see why they had to be so final about the whole
> >thing. Let the show develop, for God's sake; don't seal its fate for
> >the sake of one episode.
> Well, as was expected and as is par for the course, last night everything
> was back to "normal" for them, like nothing happened regarding soulmates
> and eternity and learning from each incarnation. Not that I wanted them
> to go on with this; I was just bored with the ep, no matter how much I
> like good, gross-out gore. Maybe it was just that there were no major
> plot holes to spend all week hypothesizing about and hitting the
> encyclopedias to try to explain <g>. And I especially didn't like this
> "incarnation" of the Mulder/Scully relationship. Mulder was having his
> odd but accurate crime-solving insights, and Scully, after the requisite
> "What are you talking about, Mulder? Pentagrams?" (not a direct quote,
> she just seemed to be there as a Mulder sounding board to me), was being
> sent off like a glorified lab tech/rookie cop (no cut meant to lab
> techs/rookie cops meant).
Yeah...as we suspected, nothing's really come of "TFWID" either way
<sigh>. Oh well. I'm in the process of writing my review on this one
so I won't say more for now. ;) But the deep and beautiful potential
of their relationship certainly wasn't present.
>
> -- Mishka
>
> "Fear of chaos cannot justify
> unwarranted censorship of free speech." (Al Gore)
>
> *** Save the Fan Websites -- FREE SPEECH IS OUT THERE! ***
Thanks for this post, Mishka. Both thoughtful and thought-provoking.
It's so delightful to be able to debate with someone in such a
non-inflammatory way. Hope my reply wasn't too long-winded. :)
Cathy (taking a deep breath)
--
Catherine J. Blatz
============================================================
Mulder: "That's a pretty extreme hunch."
Scully: "I seem to recall you having some pretty extreme hunches."
Mulder: "I never have."
- "Aubrey"
============================================================
cja...@ix.netcom.com
stub...@acs.eku.edu
In article <5666k7$p...@bolivia.earthlink.net>, Gia Gittleson <gi...@earthlink.net> writes:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> Also, taking a look at his other show,
>>Millennium, one could draw the conclusion that he is more than a little
>>interested in the dismemberment of women
>
> whoa, that a tad harsh.
>
> and that he views the hero as
>>an affectless male loner who, even when married, has not a spark of
>>pleasure in his life that derives from sexual playfulness.
>
> You've got something here, Cat
>
> There's not a scintilla of passion in their marriage. I'm not asking for
> full-on tantric sex on the hood of a Buick (altho that never hurt anybody
> ;> ) FB and CB can maintain their paragon-of-good qualities in a love
> embrace. And there's no reason to write a drawn-out love scene, but a few
> serious kisses here and there would add much.
>
> it makes sense to add this element. One of the most life-affirming acts
> is sex--esp. in the face of death. And what does FB face alot of? Death.
>
> To make these characters more real,more human (they "are" human, aren't
> they?) their lovemaking can be used to erase their burdens. This
> bittersweet passion adds a spiritual dimension as well. Isn't that what
> we seek--to take sex beyond the corporeal and temporal into a more sacred
> union? (to wit: "Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm coming.")
>
> CC has said that Moose and Squirrel represent two halves of himself. IN
> light of Cat's comments, I wonder about this WRT to FB. No doubt, the
> characters represent the better of humankind. CC has, in fact, said, "he
> and his wife are very noble people whom we should all emulate." A noble
> sentiment, but should we emulate such characters down to this aspect of
> being joyless conduits for good? 'Fraid not, dude.
>
> The good news: CC has also said that FB's "a character with tremendous
> sex appeal, he's a 'protector.'" There, you have. A hot little pull quote
> about FB's potential as lover and husband. So, all you guys around the
> conference table, what are you waiting for?
>
> best,
>
> Gia
>Okay, here's a question---why did you post this everywhere. This is
NOT the Millenium newsgroup. You and the person who posted the Nanny
Homepage crap should hook up and post to each other cause I DON"T
CARE!!!! Was that harsh? I really do like Millenium and all, but when
I go to the x-files newsgroup I plan on reading about the X-Files and
not Millenium or the Nanny or Sex and Feminism in the Military. I wish
everyone would just post where they are supposed to and leave everyone
else alone.
> ---------------------------------301131319519122
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type:
> ---------------------------------301131319519122--
Leigh A Vrabel
Shrug shrug...if I were dealing with psychotic/sociopathic serial
killers who cut out people's tongues, among other things (wasn't that
disgusting?), I'd probably enjoy a vapid, dull home life too. There
seems to be a balance here, albeit a poorly handled one: the ultimate
gross-out vs. the ultimate domestic fantasy. I'm not crazy about it
either, but at least it makes sense, in an intro-to-literary-genres sort
of way...
Leigh Anne
Abby
> >Okay, here's a question---why did you post this everywhere. This is
> NOT the Millenium newsgroup. You and the person who posted the Nanny
> Homepage crap should hook up and post to each other cause I DON"T
> CARE!!!! Was that harsh?
Yes, it was. This post was a review about a show related to the
X-Files. Are you so narrowly concerned that you can't entertain
conversation about more than one *related* topic?
Likewise, The Nanny page announcement was aimed at TV Ng's for the same
reason - variety of discussion about a related topics.
>I really do like Millenium and all, but when
> I go to the x-files newsgroup I plan on reading about the X-Files and
> not Millenium or the Nanny or Sex and Feminism in the Military. I wish
> everyone would just post where they are supposed to and leave everyone
> else alone.
And I'm not crazy about a ranting post where I expected to see a
discussion, either. At least the ad wasn't disguised with a false
title. It's simple - don't read the posts you deem off-topic. Others
may be more open to them.
-Abby
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose.
That is not a weakness. That is life."
J-L Picard