Question for SKipper fic authors
MareZX
fic in general. I've noticed that a lot of it (maybe the majority) had MSR
overtones. (Overtones? Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading MSR or KSR.) Since
this is supposed to be SKipper fic, I have to wonder why that is. Are most
SKippers also shippers? (Aren't those 2 states mutually exclusive or
something?) Or is the fic being written by people who aren't really SKippers?
(Hey, that I can understand. I have an MSR and an M/K out there, and I'm no
shipper or slasher <g>) Is that why so few people can write Scully
unapologetically sleeping with Krycek and not wanting anybody else in her bed?
Or does everybody else just feel that a real Scully/Krycek relationship is
doomed from the start?
It doesn't have to be. Granted, it wouldn't be easy to set up -- her sleeping
with him is one thing; her falling in love with him is quite something else.
Couldn't possibly happen overnight, and it would take work. And to make it
even remotely plausible? Even harder. Is that why we see so little of it? Is
that why so much SKipper fic looks like thinly-disguised MSR? Why *is* there
so much MSR in SKipper fic?
Can anybody explain this?
Mare, confused
Brandon Ray
MareZX wrote:
> Is that why so few people can write Scully
> unapologetically sleeping with Krycek and not wanting anybody else in her bed?
> Or does everybody else just feel that a real Scully/Krycek relationship is
> doomed from the start?
>
Well, first I'll acknowledge being a shipper, at least in terms of fanfic. I'm
not at all sure I trust 1013 or Fox to get it right if they tried to go there, and
I don't really think they're ever going to try. But for fanfic that's where my
head's at.
Having said that, and I really don't want to start a fight, but I have to say that
I find Scully/Krycek not just doomed but unimaginable, if you are using characters
that have even the slightest resemblance to the ones on the show. Krycek has been
intimately involved in at least half of the very worst things that have happened
to both Scully AND Mulder, and while Krycek would probably fuck a mule if it would
hold still long enough (he fucked Marita, didn't he?), I just can't see the Scully
of the TV series EVER getting it on with the Krycek of the TV series.
That's not to say people shouldn't write fanfic about it. If that's what floats
your boat, have at it; I even expect you'll find an audience of like-minded souls,
that's great; that's why we're all here in the first place. But you asked where
there isn't much Scully/Krycek fanfic, and I think that's the reason: Most fans
of the show just can't get their minds around the basic concept.
>
> It doesn't have to be. Granted, it wouldn't be easy to set up -- her sleeping
> with him is one thing; her falling in love with him is quite something else.
> Couldn't possibly happen overnight, and it would take work. And to make it
> even remotely plausible? Even harder. Is that why we see so little of it? Is
> that why so much SKipper fic looks like thinly-disguised MSR? Why *is* there
> so much MSR in SKipper fic?
>
That's an easy one. There's more MSR than ANY other sub-genre, at least within
the Romance category, because the sexual tension between Mulder and Scully is what
attracts a significant portion of the audience for the TV series. Some people
tune in for the horror, some for conspiracy plot, and one big whacking chunk tune
in to watch the relationship between the two protagonists. Think not? Remember
which episodes are always the most popular, and also generate the most
controversy: Ascension/One Breath; The Field Where I Died; Momento Mori;
Tunguska/Terma; Never Again; Small Potatoes; Christmas Carol/Emily; Triangle. I
could go on and on, but you get the point: Almost all of the episodes which most
people either like the best or get into the biggest arguments about revolve around
the emotional connection between M&S. These stories aren't always positive in
terms of MSR -- Never Again, for example, is a Shipper's nightmare (although there
have been a couple of pretty damn fine MSR fanfics to grow out of that episode).
But they almost ALWAYS focus on the relationship between M&S.
And there is a reason for this: Chris Carter deliberately designed the show to
work that way. The whole situation was set up to create all sorts of tensions
between Mulder and Scully, and some of those tensions are inevitably sexual in
nature. In a lot of ways, that's what the show is really about, and it is
certainly a major factor in generating and maintaining the audience.
Please remember: I am NOT slamming people who like Scully/Skinner or
Scully/Krycek or Krycek/Marita or whatever. One of the wonderful things about
fanfic is that it makes it possible for each of us to explore possibilities that
we all know will NEVER be explored by Carter & Co. Like I said, whatever floats
your boat. But you did ask why MSR was so much more popular than other subgenres,
and I think I've at least identified some of the reasons for that.
--
"It's not till you get back to nature that you realize EVERYTHING'S out to get
you."
--Special Agent Dana Scully, "Quagmire"
=================
Okay, I succumbed. I've established an online archive of my own X-Files fanfic:
MareZX
>and I think I've at least identified some of the reasons for that.
>
No, that wasn't what I asked at all. I *know* why MSR is so popular as a
fanfic genre. What I want to know is why people who are ostensibly writing
SKipper fic, and label it as such, almost always include an MSR aspect to it.
If you're writing for the SKipper audience, why does Scully always end up with
Mulder?
>But you asked where there isn't much Scully/Krycek fanfic, and I think that's
the reason: Most fans of the show just can't get their minds around the basic
concept.
Nope, didn't ask that either <g> I also know why there isn't much
Scully/Krycek fic; I was asking questions about the fic that does exist. I can
understand that a lot of people can't get their heads around the idea; I really
can't either, as far as the show goes. I *know* that Show Scully would never,
ever go near Show Krycek. I just feel that it has intriguing possibilities in
the fic realm.
Which brings me back to my basic question. Do people who write SKipper/shipper
fic do it that way because they can't see a Scully/Krycek relationship of any
sort as being anything but doomed? I still maintain that it doesn't have to be
that way, but making it work in fic would take a lot of effort on the part of
the writer. It necessitates taking the show characters and changing
(evolving?) them in a way CC'd never, ever do and most fic authors won't
attempt either.
The appeal of that, from my POV? The relationship dynamics and the psychology
involved is utterly fascinating <g> I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who
finds it so.
Just a clarification :-)
Mare
RaValliano
>fic in general. I've noticed that a lot of it (maybe the majority) had MSR
>overtones. (Overtones? Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading MSR or KSR.)
>Since
>this is supposed to be SKipper fic, I have to wonder why that is. Are most
>SKippers also shippers? (Aren't those 2 states mutually exclusive or
>something?) Or is the fic being written by people who aren't really
>SKippers?
Well, as someone who recently posted what could be called a SKipper fic with
heavy MSR overtones I feel like I should at least attempt to answer this
question. I can only speak for myself though. I generally would consider myself
a shipper. Most of the fic I've written has been strict MSR and when I watch
the show the aspect I most enjoy is the interaction between Mulder and Scully.
I think that they are in love most definately. I also don't think that makes it
impossible for me to be at least a semi-SKipper. I don't happen to think the
two are mutually exclusive but I think the two are different kinds of things. I
think the big difference between a Scully/Krycek relationship and say,
Scully/Mulder, Scully/Skinner, Mulder/Krycek, any of these, is that there
really is no precedent for Scully/Krycek on the show. I think pretty convincing
arguments can be made for love between just about any of the other characters
but Scully and Krycek have had so little time together on the air that it's
hard for someone to say, oh yeah, she loves him, wants him, whatever. What I
tried to do in my story is say, what if she did spend time with him? What I
came up with was just my honest opinion of what would have happened in that
situation. Being that I think she's in love with Mulder, based on the evidence
I've seen on the show, I couldn't really believe that she would fall in love
with Krycek as well. I could however, believe that she would be attracted to
him and given the situation I set up, perhaps act on that attraction to some
degree. I dunno, I guess I can't really call myself a SKipper in the same way
that I am a shipper. I don't think that they are in love, I don't think we'll
ever see more than 5 minutes of them together on the show, and I really
wouldn't want to see them together in that way on the show. I wrote the story
because I couldn't help but wonder what if? Given what we've seen, I came up
with Scully in love with Mulder but wanting to sleep with Krycek.
Is that why so few people can write Scully
>unapologetically sleeping with Krycek and not wanting anybody else in her
>bed?
>Or does everybody else just feel that a real Scully/Krycek relationship is
>doomed from the start?
>
>It doesn't have to be. Granted, it wouldn't be easy to set up -- her
>sleeping
>with him is one thing; her falling in love with him is quite something else.
>Couldn't possibly happen overnight, and it would take work. And to make it
>even remotely plausible? Even harder. Is that why we see so little of it?
-I suppose it's just hard to really conceive of given what we know so far. I
don't think a relationship between them would necessarily be doomed but to
write a story in which Scully remains true to her character AND falls in love
with Krycek AND doesn't love Mulder anymore would be, in my opinion, extremely
difficult. I wouldn't mind seeing it done because I am extremely curious about
the kind of relationship these two could have. I just think it's so far outside
what we've seen that most people don't want to even attempt to tackle it. It
would take a lot of creativity and a very unusual set up, that's for sure.
Again, I'd be very interested in a story like this. I just don't know if I
could write one because as much as I might enjoy Scully/Krycek on a fantasy
level, I really like to try to remain true to my interpretation of events on
the show in my stories.
>Is
>that why so much SKipper fic looks like thinly-disguised MSR? Why *is* there
>so much MSR in SKipper fic?
>
>Can anybody explain this?
>
Well, I hope I managed to at least explain myself, although I doubt it. I'm
very unclear about these issues myself right now. Even though I know that
Scully and Mulder are in love and that I love that, I've been finding myself
preoccupied with Krycek/Scully thoughts lately and wondering how far is too far
in a story, being that it is a story after all and not the show. Anyway, I
can't wait to hear what other people have to say about this (if anything)
because it's a real issue with me lately!
Rachel Anton
DANAM...@prodigy.net
Brandon Ray wrote in message <365FB091...@avalon.net>...
But you did ask why MSR was so much more popular than other subgenres,
>and I think I've at least identified some of the reasons for that.
>
And so much more. Very insightful though. I agree, of course, being a
shipper myself, it's hard not to.
~Kristen
Brandon Ray
MareZX wrote:
> I *know* why MSR is so popular as a
> fanfic genre. What I want to know is why people who are ostensibly writing
> SKipper fic, and label it as such, almost always include an MSR aspect to it.
> If you're writing for the SKipper audience, why does Scully always end up with
> Mulder?
>
*shrug* I still think what I wrote fundamentally applies: The reason Scully
(almost) always ends up with Mulder, even in SKipper fic, is because the dynamics
of the show, which is what we all start from, are naturally inclined to make that
happen in the end. To get to any other outcome (and it DOES happen), you have to
swim upstream. Getting to MSR in the end is a lot easier, a lot more "natural".
>
> The appeal of that, from my POV? The relationship dynamics and the psychology
> involved is utterly fascinating <g> I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who
> finds it so.
Not the only one, certainly. There are a few stories out there that address this,
and I understand that if you like that sort of thing they're pretty good.
There are two I can think of that address this which I actually read and liked.
They do both have the flaw (from your point of view) of eventually winding up as
MSR, but at least they make the Scully/Krycek relationship seem remotely
plausible, for as long as it lasts.
The first is Anamorphosis, by Megan Reilly. She gets their by making Scully a
victim of MPD (multiple personality disorder), and generally making her pretty
screwed up about her sexuality. I don't think this is the character Carter has
written or that Anderson portrays, but Megan made it work, and the relationship
with Krycek (which is alluded to but not portrayed "onscreen" as it were) seems
credible for as long as it lasts.
The other one was by Rachel Anton, My Way or the Highway, and was recently posted
to ATXC. In this one Scully is driven again by being in a VERY unusual state of
mind, and ultimately balks before committing the deed. But Rachel makes it
credible (also incredibly painful; this is NOT a "happy" story).
But to get back to what you really did ask: The reason you don't see very many
stories where Scully happily takes to Krycek's bed and decides she doesn't want
anyone but him is just because given the characters and situations as they are
known to exist, it isn't a very credible scenario. It's about as likely as
Hillary and Monica getting together to give Bill a really special birthday party.
Fantasy, on the other hand, is free...but you have to make some pretty significant
changes in the characters as we know them (as Megan and Rachel did in their
stories) to make it at all believable.
Emily Siazon
>With all the SKipper challenges posted lately, I have a question about
SKipper
>fic in general. I've noticed that a lot of it (maybe the majority) had MSR
>overtones. (Overtones? Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading MSR or KSR.)
Since
>this is supposed to be SKipper fic, I have to wonder why that is. Are most
>SKippers also shippers? (Aren't those 2 states mutually exclusive or
>something?) Or is the fic being written by people who aren't really
SKippers?
Well, I haven't written a SKipper fic yet, but I love reading them
and non-mushy MSR ^_^
<Shrug> Stories that end as MSR can get a bit annoying when I'm
in the mood to read a Krycek gets Scully story, but I understand that
it's very hard to write a realistic Scully/Krycek pairing without going
through a lot of angst and changes in personality that would require
the story to be novel length if it wants to be realistic.
>(Hey, that I can understand. I have an MSR and an M/K out there, and I'm
no
>shipper or slasher <g>) Is that why so few people can write Scully
>unapologetically sleeping with Krycek and not wanting anybody else in her
bed?
>Or does everybody else just feel that a real Scully/Krycek relationship is
>doomed from the start?
Pretty much. They don't really know each other well, and
Scully already hates him for what he's done to Mulder.
Then again, there are tons of M/K fics out there, and IMHO
Mulder hates Krycek more than Scully hates him. <Shrug>
>It doesn't have to be. Granted, it wouldn't be easy to set up -- her
sleeping
>with him is one thing; her falling in love with him is quite something
else.
>Couldn't possibly happen overnight, and it would take work. And to make it
>even remotely plausible? Even harder. Is that why we see so little of it?
Is
>that why so much SKipper fic looks like thinly-disguised MSR? Why *is*
there
>so much MSR in SKipper fic?
Because it's so much easier to write MSR. A lot of
people like happy endings which is possible to do
with a Mulder/Scully pairing without going through a
lot of work; on the other hand, a Scully/Krycek pairing
has so many factors working against it that I personally
can't think of a way that it could end happily and still be
realistic.
>Can anybody explain this?
>
>Mare, confused
Emily Siazon
******
A Really Bad Pickup Line:
I may not be the best looking girl here, but I'm the only
one talking to you ^_^
Megan
> It doesn't have to be. Granted, it wouldn't be easy to set up -- her sleeping
> with him is one thing; her falling in love with him is quite something else.
> Couldn't possibly happen overnight, and it would take work. And to make it
> even remotely plausible? Even harder. Is that why we see so little of it? Is
> that why so much SKipper fic looks like thinly-disguised MSR? Why *is* there
> so much MSR in SKipper fic?
>
Most of the SKippers I know are also 'shippers, or are mostly 'shippers
who want to try something new.
Most of the Scully/other stories out there end up being MSR at the end,
so this isn't a question that applies only to S/K stories. I think as
it applies to S/K stories, they end up with some element of MSR for a
few different reasons:
- The Scully/Krycek relationship is used to highlight aspects of the
Scully/Mulder relationship
- The love triangle is effective in romantic fiction, and Scully ends up
with Mulder because she would likely have to change her entire life were
she to end up with Krycek
- So people will read the darn things and not kill the author! Let's
face it, some people can be downright abusive about non-MSR stories. A
friend of mine who's written a couple of SKipper stories battled with
herself at the endings, because she wanted to have Scully end up with
Krycek but felt that would disappoint the readers.
From my own personal experience, "The Secret Life of Dana Scully" was
written to use the Scully/Krycek relationship to explore aspects of the
Scully/Mulder relationship, and also to see if I could make it at all
plausible for Scully to fall for Krycek. Since then, I've written S/K
vignettes that leave personal motivations a lot less clear. Murky works
well, I've found.
I think the reason why we see so little of this type of fiction is
because it's hard to pull off well for reasons other people have
mentioned - Scully and Krycek have spent so little screentime together,
you're really pulling things out the the air; it's hard to make it work
well; and with the overwhelming amounts of MSR and slash, this genre
kind of slips through the cracks. A lot of people geniunely hate Krycek
and have no interest in reading or writing this kind of story.
I like it, and publicize it, because it's fun and it's different and it
does make the writer work. I also think that it's a genre that has a
very high quality ratio - the majority of stories I've read, I've
loved. It's kind of amazing to me to see that the term has caught on,
since I'm the one who coined it [far as I know] and that there are
stories to be found. I don't think there's anyone who honestly believes
Scully and Krycek will get together on the show, or should, but it's
very enjoyable to read stories about.
Megan
The SKipper Haven:
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/3774/skipper.htm
Jim Alcauskas
> face it, some people can be downright abusive about non-MSR stories.
I agree. I've written a few Krycek/Scully romance stories, one series
in particular, and I do love the thought of such a romance. It has that
risky, dangerous side to it. Whenever I say that I think they should
get together, everyone around me starts cussing me out and acting very
rash. I'm thinking of one instance in particular. It was in a
newsgroup, and I ended up quitting the newsgroup due to their hostility
toward my ideas. I like the romance best becuase it is unexpected. And
not that publicized.... sometimes I think I've read one too many MSR
fics. They get monotonous at times. It's been done. I read it. Most
every MSR has the same format. And at the end they always get
together. I know, I making a lot of generalizations, bear with me.
SKipper Fic is always different, because there isn't much out there.
But I do hate SKipper fic at times, becuase in many stories Krycek ends
up dying, and Scully ends up with Mulder. I'm a shipper and sKipper,
don't ask me why. I think some writers begin writing Krycek/Scully than
near the end suddenly have a revolation and say 'hold on. this would
never work.' Authors need to make it work. I know that Krycek and
Scully would NEVER get together (or anywhere near together) on the real
show. But this is fanfic. Anything can happen. I like writing sKipper
fic because I'm intriqued by Krycek's background..or lack there of.
Where did he come from? What's he really like? Why would he do this?
Etc., Etc. I think that sKipper fic is often thought of as the 'black
sheep' of XF fanfic. Many Scully-lovers are apolled by the thought of
her and <gasp> Krycek! Many shippers are devastated that Scully would
suppress her loved for Mulder for that Krycek guy. Many slashers can't
even think of Krycek in a normal (girl-guy) relationship. I think that
sKipper fic is often overlooked, and shouldn't be, it's got potential.
Sorry for the long rant. =]
~Kate Dyer, sKipper and Krycek/Scully author
Char Priolo
sKipper!!! I love reading KSR (and writting) because of the "bad guy" image. I
also think MSKR story would be really hot and dangerst. And think of the drama
of this love triangle!!! M's reaction to S with K, great stuff to be written
here!!! I have one story going around called "Phase 2" it mostly a MSR with
KSR overtones to it. The next story I have running through my head will be
TOTALLY KSR!!!
see you all later!!
Char Priolo
Aqualegia
In article <3661AA...@earthlink.net>, Jim Alcauskas <al...@earthlink.net>
writes:
>But I do hate SKipper fic at times, becuase in many stories Krycek ends
>up dying, and Scully ends up with Mulder.
This annoys me too
I'm a shipper and sKipper,
>don't ask me why. I think some writers begin writing Krycek/Scully than
>near the end suddenly have a revolation and say 'hold on. this would
>never work.' Authors need to make it work.
I'm a Krycekaholic - so I'm a SKipper and an K/slasher - but definitely not a
shipper
>I know that Krycek and
>Scully would NEVER get together (or anywhere near together) on the real
>show. But this is fanfic. Anything can happen. I like writing sKipper
>fic because I'm intriqued by Krycek's background..or lack there of.
>Where did he come from? What's he really like? Why would he do this?
>Etc., Etc. I think that sKipper fic is often thought of as the 'black
>sheep' of XF fanfic. Many Scully-lovers are apolled by the thought of
>her and <gasp> Krycek! Many shippers are devastated that Scully would
>suppress her loved for Mulder for that Krycek guy. Many slashers can't
>even think of Krycek in a normal (girl-guy) relationship. I think that
>sKipper fic is often overlooked, and shouldn't be, it's got potential.
>Sorry for the long rant. =]
I've read a couple of really good stories which featured Krycek, which were,
IMO, let down by their endings. I know it's not 'my world' I'm reading about
but I felt as if I had been cheated somehow - that's not the word I really
wanted to use but it's getting late - let's try again - as if the author didn't
quite know how to end the story so killed him off. - and I really, really,
hate death stories :(
I've started a SKipper story but RL keeps getting in the way at the moment, so
I dont' know when I'm going to be able to finish it <g>
Lynda
[Krycekaholic]
Focussed on Nick Lea
http://members.aol.com/aqualegia/index.html
Ruth Sadelle Alderson
>
> With all the SKipper challenges posted lately, I have a question about SKipper
> fic in general. I've noticed that a lot of it (maybe the majority) had MSR
> overtones. (Overtones? Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading MSR or KSR.)
How odd. I always feel as if I'm reading fic by the Mulder Haters
Anonymous. The (admittedly few, although I'm working to change that)
SKipper fics I've read villianize Mulder to the point that you REALLY
don't want him to be with Scully, Krycek, or anyone else.
MareZX
>Anonymous. The (admittedly few, although I'm working to change that)
>SKipper fics I've read villianize Mulder to the point that you REALLY
>don't want him to be with Scully, Krycek, or anyone else.
>
Y'know, that's an interesting point. I don't think I've seen Mulder actually
villainized in SKipper fic (well, the ones that aren't MSR <g>), but he does
indeed tend to be much more of an annoying jerk than he normally would be in
these stories. Looks like in SKipper fic, Scully either loves Mulder or
loathes him <g>
I'm facing this problem myself with the SKipper novel I've got under
construction (the reason I started this thread in the first place). I gave
myself license to let Scully, Krycek, Mulder, and whoever else shows up in the
story behave out of character, but... they're refusing to. In my outline,
Mulder's a terribly annoying jerk... but he's not coming out that way in the
writing. He's coming off as a concerned partner who knows his best friend is
keeping something from him. (Guess my subconscious is keeping me honest on
this one.)
I *was* going to ask if it's possible to do a real Scully/Krycek relationship
without villainizing Mulder... but I think I just answered my own question.
Thoughts?
Oh, and thanks to everybody for their comments on my original question. I
didn't think this thread would spawn this much discussion!
Mare
RaValliano
>construction (the reason I started this thread in the first place). I gave
>myself license to let Scully, Krycek, Mulder, and whoever else shows up in
>the
>story behave out of character, but... they're refusing to. In my outline,
>Mulder's a terribly annoying jerk... but he's not coming out that way in the
>writing. He's coming off as a concerned partner who knows his best friend is
>keeping something from him. (Guess my subconscious is keeping me honest on
>this one.)
Yep, that happens. Sometimes your characters just won't listen to you!
>I *was* going to ask if it's possible to do a real Scully/Krycek relationship
>without villainizing Mulder... but I think I just answered my own question.
>Thoughts?
The trick is, and I have yet to see this done, creating a believable
relationship between Krycek and Scully where Scully is not also in love with
Mulder, where Mulder is not villainized, and where the characters remain true
to themselves. Since you posted your original question I've been trying like
mad to concoct a situation where this was a believable scenario and it's a
real challenge. Almost like a riddle :) I'm still working on it. Anyway I can't
wait to read your story Mare. I'm very curious now. Thanks for posting such a
thought provoking question.
Rachel Anton
Daddy793
world):
<< Many slashers can't
even think of Krycek in a normal (girl-guy) relationship. >>
I'm going to assume you didn't mean that "normal" the way it sounds like you
did. <g> As a slasher in general and fan of Sk/K, P/K, M/K, etc., I don't
really think that's the major problem here.
After all, as much as many of us would like to deny it, the man showed rather
obvious interest in boffing the Unablonder. So, most slashers go with the 'he's
bisexual, just has lousy taste in women' theory. Now, I've talked to a lot of
slashers and ratgrrls about the profound lack of interest in K-Sc, and the main
reasons I've heard are as follows:
1) Personalities are neither similar enough to blend nor opposite enough to
mesh neatly, or even interestingly enough to beat back the shudder of horror.
2) Scully of the 'I don't *hear* you, Mulder' and 'science evidence science'
varieties -- a character interpretation rampant in the slash world -- just
wouldn't *do* that.
3) Scully, if she wants anyone at all, wants Mulder.
4) Krycek the omnisexual may be *physically* attracted to Scully, but jesus, he
could get some a lot easier / less likely to get him arrested damned near
anywhere else. And he's on a schedule.
5) Profound lack of canon to support the idea of UST, or even the idea that
they could just *relate* to each other.
I think a lot of K-Sc people find that last reason the most difficult to take,
considering all the Pendrell/Krycek and Skinner/Krycek out there. However...
look at this way: While P/K and Sk/K onscreen time together is minimal to flat
out nonexistent, we *also* have little to no reason to think it's impossible
that they *could* get together and have hot sex or even a vaguely healthy
relationship with each other.
To put it another way, we've seen *ample* evidence of Scully's moral fiber and
Krycek's lack thereof -- which, for a lot of us, is more than enough reason to
run screaming away from the idea of K-Sc. It's just extremely difficult to
believe that Scully would toss her morals by the roadside, forget all her
suspicions and knowledge about Krycek, and get buck wild. Just as it's
extremely difficult to believe that Krycek would take up with someone whom he
had every reason to believe barely thought of him as *human*, much less as
lover material.
With (just about) every other character in the XF universe, writers have every
reason to believe that said characters have acknowledged that at least *some*
portions of their souls are grey... And Krycek could use that grey to worm his
way in.
I'm also reminded of the 'where are the Alex-Otiginal Female Character/Mary Sue
stories?' discussion that wound up (I think) with the fascinating revelation
that, for a lot of Krycek authors, Krycek *is* their Mary Sue. I think it's
possible that Scully funcions in the same way for any number of writers, as
well. So who wants to write me/me erotica? Also, could a person who identified
enough with Krycek to make him their primary avatar *also* feel Scullyish
enough to understand her, as well? Not even to make her an additional avatar,
just to understand the woman enough to write her plausibly?
The reverse is also a possibility, I think.Sure, there are people that *can* do
that, and very well, but it seems to me that it would be a rare talent.
Anyway, sorry to ramble. These are just a few thoughts I've been having since
the convo started.
Te
"I *do* love you, Te, you know this. You're just kind of big and scary." --
Rae, on why I'm not allowed near her pets or loved ones.
Imajiru gave me a home! http://unicorn-x.net/te/
Daddy793
twice.
-Te
MareZX
>mad to concoct a situation where this was a believable scenario and it's a
>real challenge. Almost like a riddle :) I'm still working on it. Anyway I
>can't
>wait to read your story Mare. I'm very curious now. Thanks for posting such a
>thought provoking question.
Actually, the original scenario that gets Scully & Krycek together in my
WIP-from-hell came to me very easily. It's been the rest of the stuff that's
taken 2+ years to polish: how they both deal with the situation I've thrown
them into, how each changes and how each perceives the changes in the other;
what kind of head games they play with each other and how those change as the
relationship goes through several stages. I like to think they're dealing with
an out-of-character situation in very in-character ways.
Mulder's part in the whole thing was a little harder. It took a proposed
scenario from an early beta to make him relevant. I ultimately chose not to
use the scenario she suggested, but it did make me think and I think I reached
a compromise that let me stay true to my vision yet incorporated the spirit of
the suggestion. In any case, Mulder's now relevant, whereas he wasn't before.
Oh, and if anybody who *is* interested in SKipper fic would like to preview the
first 3 parts and let me know how I'm doing on the plausibility scale, I'd
really appreciate the comments :-)
<<To put it another way, we've seen *ample* evidence of Scully's moral fiber
and Krycek's lack thereof -- which, for a lot of us, is more than enough reason
to run screaming away from the idea of K-Sc. It's just extremely difficult to
believe that Scully would toss her morals by the roadside, forget all her
suspicions and knowledge about Krycek, and get buck wild. Just as it's
extremely difficult to believe that Krycek would take up with someone whom he
had every reason to believe barely thought of him as *human*, much less as
lover material. >>
Ah, but all these people are presuming that the relationship is 100%
consensual. What if... it weren't? (No, I'm *not* talking rape!) What if...
Krycek were to somehow blackmail Scully into it? Seems a singularly Krycekian
thing to do (at least to me), and it offers tons of opportunity for Scully
angst, allowing her to show that moral fiber. How *does* she handle a Hobson's
choice and still stay true to herself?
Mare, who left her Mary Sue in her other WIP-from-hell.
Daddy793
<<<<To put it another way, we've seen *ample* evidence of Scully's moral fiber
and Krycek's lack thereof -- which, for a lot of us, is more than enough reason
to run screaming away from the idea of K-Sc. It's just extremely difficult to
believe that Scully would toss her morals by the roadside, forget all her
suspicions and knowledge about Krycek, and get buck wild. Just as it's
extremely difficult to believe that Krycek would take up with someone whom he
had every reason to believe barely thought of him as *human*, much less as
lover material. >>
Ah, but all these people are presuming that the relationship is 100%
consensual. What if... it weren't? (No, I'm *not* talking rape!) What if...
Krycek were to somehow blackmail Scully into it? Seems a singularly Krycekian
thing to do (at least to me), and it offers tons of opportunity for Scully
angst, allowing her to show that moral fiber. How *does* she handle a Hobson's
choice and still stay true to herself? >>
Well, now, that sounds pretty interesting actually. Wouldn't it technically
still qualify as rape, though? Coercion, etc. Of course, it's that category of
rape that's almost shamefully hot, but I've long since given up on trying to
rule my sexuality.
I guess in that situation I'd be far more willing to accept a Krycek gradually
and with difficulty wearing away at Scully's "natural" impulses to avoid the
man... especially since there's all *sorts* of psychological (as well as
practical) reasons for her not to tell a soul. But it's a dangerous game... I'd
really, really need some vivid description of both characters' motivations and
emotional states throughout.
Unless, of course, it's a PWP, in which case all bets are off and bring on the
smut. I *like* Scully when she's characterized as being a little wild, and it's
damned upsetting that CC has given us ample reason to consider such
interpretations as flat out wrong.
After all, what happens when she steps outside the mold? Punishment. Never
Again. Forget Madonna complexes -- Scully seems to be starring in her very own
morality play sometimes. Hmm... show me how much that chafes her bottom, and
let her break the chains. *Then* she can play with Alex at *least* as much as
Mulder can.
Man I loved the view of Mulder, lost and confused in a world gone mad, curling
up with porn... His own sticky teddy bear.
Te, shutting up before she drifts any more.
******
Megan
> Ah, but all these people are presuming that the relationship is 100%
> consensual. What if... it weren't? (No, I'm *not* talking rape!) What if...
> Krycek were to somehow blackmail Scully into it? Seems a singularly Krycekian
> thing to do (at least to me), and it offers tons of opportunity for Scully
> angst, allowing her to show that moral fiber. How *does* she handle a Hobson's
> choice and still stay true to herself?
I liked the way Jessica Taylor handled it in "Lost" - Scully had
Stockholm Syndrome from being kidnapped. So it wasn't 100% consensual,
and it still worked.
> Mare, who left her Mary Sue in her other WIP-from-hell.
I think as far as the whole "Krycek is a Mary Sue, and Scully is a Mary
Sue and never the twain shall meet" argument goes, it's either one or
the other. I'm venturing a guess that most SKipper authors are using
Scully as their proxy because they're hot for Krycek. I could be wrong.
Megan
RaValliano
>Scully as their proxy because they're hot for Krycek. I could be wrong.
No, you're right :) At least in this author's case.
Rachel
JourneyToX
pointed it out:
>
>The other one was by Rachel Anton, My Way or the Highway, and was recently
>posted
>to ATXC. In this one Scully is driven again by being in a VERY unusual state
>of
>mind, and ultimately balks before committing the deed. But Rachel makes it
>credible (also incredibly painful; this is NOT a "happy" story).
Actually, Scully was begging for it and Krycek stopped the action from
progressing to its natural conclusion, at least in the Texas scene. Things did
progress, albeit in a sort of mocking way, further in Los Angeles. And Rachel
resolved the story with MSR. Which worked, in that story, the way those
characters were portrayed. That story was effing brilliant.
For the time Scully was with Krycek in Rachel's story, I knew that (1) a very
odd state of mind had put her in the position to be with him and (2) she
wouldn't stay there forever. But while she was with him, she seemed, in a way
she rarely is with Mulder, a bit happy.
If I ever write Scully/Krycek, and I admit I'm very tempted to do so one day,
the great challenge will be getting Scully into a place where she would be with
a treacherous man like Krycek (and he would be Canon Krycek, not a scrubbed up
version of same.) The words 'twisted' 'angry'and 'gritty' come immediately to
mind in describing what I see as the mood of such a piece.
If Scully and Mulder were two people from my neighborhood, professional
colleagues, old high school friends, etc., real people, I'd think this about
them: (1) They sure have gone far down the 'platonic' road for things to
change. (2) They 'think' they should be lovers. Man. Woman. Hetero.
Attractive. Available. True Friends. Fellow Crusaders. In the 1990s way that we
all think, we think these people belong in bed together. They think they do
too.They see romance as the *inevitable* progression, growth or evolution of
their relationship. (3) They may or may not be right about (2).
It's up to the fanfic writer to put enough psychology, dynamics, and thought
into the story to make me believe in MSR. I'm not naturally inclined toward
it. Some writers have done so beautifully. All praise to em.
I know I'm in the minority on this issue, and others, as far as the romantic
pairings of the show, and of fanfic. Maybe I see don't see the MSR( forest)
for seeing the Extreme Possibilities (trees).
Journ...@aol.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
David Duchovny, about Mitch Pileggi: "He's a big boy!"
Mitch Pileggi, confirming same: "Oh yeah!!'
--The X-Files Season Three Gag Reel
See, I told you the truth was out there!
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Laura Shapiro
>How odd. I always feel as if I'm reading fic by the Mulder Haters
>Anonymous. The (admittedly few, although I'm working to change that)
>SKipper fics I've read villianize Mulder to the point that you REALLY
>don't want him to be with Scully, Krycek, or anyone else.
This is interesting to me, because several months ago there was a thread
which debated the idea that in most m/m slash (particularly Mulder/Krycek,
it seems to me), Scully was villainized.
If Mulder's to be with anyone else, must Scully therefore be a villain? If
Scully's to be with anyone else, must Mulder be a villain? Or is it just one
partner's being with *Krycek* that turns the other one into the antichrist?
:)
It appears that many slash writers and SKippers see something inevitable
about MSR, and must therefore villainize either Scully or Mulder in order to
justify their preferred pairing. Personally, I don't think that's necessary.
Just because Mulder loves Krycek (for example), that doesn't mean Scully's a
bitch (or, more to the point in this debate, the fact that Scully loves
Krycek doesn't make Mulder a punk).
~ Laura
--"Repeat to yourself 'It's just a show
I should really just relax...'"
Joel Hodgson
Laura Shapiro
day,
>the great challenge will be getting Scully into a place where she would be
with
>a treacherous man like Krycek (and he would be Canon Krycek, not a
scrubbed up
>version of same.) The words 'twisted' 'angry'and 'gritty' come immediately
to
>mind in describing what I see as the mood of such a piece.
Supposing...Scully loves Mulder, and pines. Mulder loves Krycek, and
vice-versa, and they have a lovely smutty intense relationship. Suppose
Mulder dies to find The Truth (picture wrap-up of mytharc, end of Season 7,
second movie, whatever), and Scully is left alive...bitter, disillusioned,
widowed (in a sense). I could *definitely* envision a S/K with a Scully who
has been through *that*.
Ruth Sadelle Alderson
>
> This is interesting to me, because several months ago there was a thread
> which debated the idea that in most m/m slash (particularly Mulder/Krycek,
> it seems to me), Scully was villainized.
Does this mean you're interested in M/K with Nice!Scully? I have one
that I'm trying to work on, but I think I'll have to write the sequel to
"The West Coast" first. (It's mostly done. I just have to get it out of
my head and onto the computer.)
Daddy793
<<If Mulder's to be with anyone else, must Scully therefore be a villain? If
Scully's to be with anyone else, must Mulder be a villain? Or is it just one
partner's being with *Krycek* that turns the other one into the antichrist?
:)
It appears that many slash writers and SKippers see something inevitable
about MSR, and must therefore villainize either Scully or Mulder in order to
justify their preferred pairing. Personally, I don't think that's necessary.
Just because Mulder loves Krycek (for example), that doesn't mean Scully's a
bitch (or, more to the point in this debate, the fact that Scully loves
Krycek doesn't make Mulder a punk). >>
You're absolutely right on that last point, but I think you're missing
something basic: *Why* is the author in question writing KSR or M/K?
I like to think that most writers are open-minded -- after all, the ability to
see and believe in all sorts of possibilities is kind of a prerequisite for
writing. Therefore, I'd doubt that most people who write any Krycek pairing are
*unable* to see UST between other characters. However, that does not
automatically lead to inevitability.
It's the identification thing... maybe some of the people writing KSR *do* hate
Mulder. Hey, it's a free country, and there are all sorts of perfectly
plausible interpretations of the character that are hateable. Ditto Scully. I
don't think there's villainization going on so much as there is simple dislike.
Happens to everyone now and again. Not everyone is going to like a given
character, and if they don't they probably won't write them.
Yes, Te, but they do anyway and I hate hate hate seeing that. Sigh, so do I. In
*countless* M/Sk and MSR stories the Krycek characterization can be painful as
all hell, and I often wonder what motivated the author to *put* him there. But,
unlike Krycek, Mulder and Scully are major and important parts of each other's
lives canonically. Ignoring that means that one's stories may not be the best
they can be.
<Te holds up her hand as one of the guilty>
Just one of the reasons that torch's "Ghosts" and "Lovers" are such fabulous
stories is that she never loses sight of Scully's importance to Mulder... but
not everyone can look at canon and see the good in Scully. Personally, I've
made a rule for myself -- no character gets written into a story, no matter how
minor the role, unless I can truly see, understand, and identify with them and
the roles they play.
So Scully remains a minor player at best in those stories I write alone, as,
perhaps, Mulder remains in those KSRs...
Te
Aqualegia
In article <3665D8...@email.unc.edu>, Ruth Sadelle Alderson
<rsad...@email.unc.edu> writes:
>> This is interesting to me, because several months ago there was a thread
>> which debated the idea that in most m/m slash (particularly Mulder/Krycek,
>> it seems to me), Scully was villainized.
>
>Does this mean you're interested in M/K with Nice!Scully? I have one
>that I'm trying to work on, but I think I'll have to write the sequel to
>"The West Coast" first. (It's mostly done. I just have to get it out of
>my head and onto the computer.)
>
May I say that if you really would like to read an excellent M/K with a very
good Scully then read the Admission series, It's in 5 parts and can be found at
http://members.tripod.com/~ter_ma/aries/aries.htm.
Dragan Antulov
>I think as far as the whole "Krycek is a Mary Sue, and Scully is a Mary
>Sue and never the twain shall meet" argument goes, it's either one or
>the other. I'm venturing a guess that most SKipper authors are using
>Scully as their proxy because they're hot for Krycek. I could be wrong.
I don't know why shouldn't they use Marita. It would be much closer to canon
and more plausible. :)
Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax
Fido: 2:381/100
E-mail: dragan....@st.tel.hr
dragan....@altbbs.fido,hr
RaValliano
>>Sue and never the twain shall meet" argument goes, it's either one or
>>the other. I'm venturing a guess that most SKipper authors are using
>>Scully as their proxy because they're hot for Krycek. I could be wrong.
>
>
>I don't know why shouldn't they use Marita. It would be much closer to canon
>and more plausible. :)
>
Well, personally I don't like, understand or relate to Marita and really have
no desire to write about her in my stories. Besides, the interest for me in
Scully/Krycek is that it is indeed so far outside the canon, so different than
anything we've seen on the show. We all know Krycek and Marita did the deed.
The question is, who cares? Then again, this is the same problem I'm facing
trying to write straight MSR lately. We all know Scully and Mulder love each
other. I still care and it's one of my favorite aspects of the show but it's
been difficult for me to write about lately because it's become so obvious on
the show. Maybe that's just my own little odd quirk. I've become more and more
obsessed with writing about what we DON'T know, what we haven't seen. It's
certainly more of a challenge that way.
Rachel Anton
Daddy793
<< Maybe that's just my own little odd quirk. I've become more and more
obsessed with writing about what we DON'T know, what we haven't seen. It's
certainly more of a challenge that way. >>
Well, not yours alone. I know Halrloprillalar does that *all* the time, and
she's one of my absolute favorite authors. All right, so this had nothing to do
with the topic, but Hal *does* post to ATXC and I think everyone should read
all her stories.
So there.
Te
I'd like to see a nude opera, because when they hit those high notes, I bet you
can really see it in those genitals.
MareZX
>consensual. What if... it weren't? (No, I'm *not* talking rape!) What
>if...
>Krycek were to somehow blackmail Scully into it? Seems a singularly
>Krycekian
>thing to do (at least to me), and it offers tons of opportunity for Scully
>angst, allowing her to show that moral fiber. How *does* she handle a
>Hobson's
>choice and still stay true to herself? >>
>
>still qualify as rape, though? Coercion, etc. Of course, it's that category
>of
>rape that's almost shamefully hot, but I've long since given up on trying to
>rule my sexuality.
Well, yeah, you do sorta get the rape issue there. I've known for 2+ years
that I'd be walking a very fine line with this (and have been prepared for the
inevitable hate mail), but, now that the scene's actually written, I much
prefer "seduction" to "coercion.: ;-)
>I guess in that situation I'd be far more willing to accept a Krycek
>gradually
>and with difficulty wearing away at Scully's "natural" impulses to avoid the
>man... especially since there's all *sorts* of psychological (as well as
>practical) reasons for her not to tell a soul. But it's a dangerous game...
>I'd
>really, really need some vivid description of both characters' motivations
>and
>emotional states throughout.
>
>Unless, of course, it's a PWP, in which case all bets are off and bring on
>the
>smut. I *like* Scully when she's characterized as being a little wild, and
>it's
>damned upsetting that CC has given us ample reason to consider such
>interpretations as flat out wrong.
>
Well, dang it, Te, now you've gone and given me *more* stuff to think about <g>
I've referred to this thing as a novel-length PWP, but it's really not, and
motivations will indeed be closely explored. One beta's been relentlessly
hammering at me about "what's Alex's motivation?" for a year now; maybe it's
time to start listening to her <g> (BTW, yes, I do know what his motivation
is; it's just... rather... murky in the beginning...)
>After all, what happens when she steps outside the mold? Punishment. Never
>Again. Forget Madonna complexes -- Scully seems to be starring in her very
>own
>morality play sometimes. Hmm... show me how much that chafes her bottom, and
>let her break the chains. *Then* she can play with Alex at *least* as much as
>Mulder can.
>
OH yeah. That's the fun part -- getting her to that point ;-)
Mare
Daddy793
<<>Well, now, that sounds pretty interesting actually. Wouldn't it technically
>still qualify as rape, though? Coercion, etc. Of course, it's that category
>of
>rape that's almost shamefully hot, but I've long since given up on trying to
>rule my sexuality.
Well, yeah, you do sorta get the rape issue there. I've known for 2+ years
that I'd be walking a very fine line with this (and have been prepared for the
inevitable hate mail), but, now that the scene's actually written, I much
prefer "seduction" to "coercion.: ;-) >>
<giggling> Yes, Mare, *join* me in my shameless manipulation of semantics. Fun
*and* productive.
<<One beta's been relentlessly
hammering at me about "what's Alex's motivation?" for a year now; maybe it's
time to start listening to her <g> (BTW, yes, I do know what his motivation
is; it's just... rather... murky in the beginning...) >>
<cackling> I just love that look of shuddery relief/validation/rage a beta will
get when you finally agree with him or her with something after a truly *epic*
battle of wills. Keeps them on their toes. <eg>
RaValliano
>>the
>>smut.
Okay, this may be a really idiotic question that I will smack myself on the
head for not knowing but what in the hell is a PWP??
Rachel Anton
pril...@geocities.com
dadd...@aol.com (Daddy793) wrote:
> Rachel Anton wrote:
>
> << Maybe that's just my own little odd quirk. I've become more and more
> obsessed with writing about what we DON'T know, what we haven't seen. It's
> certainly more of a challenge that way. >>
>
> Well, not yours alone. I know Halrloprillalar does that *all* the time, and
> she's one of my absolute favorite authors. All right, so this had nothing to do
> with the topic, but Hal *does* post to ATXC and I think everyone should read
> all her stories.
I *knew* there was a reason I was following this thread. I'm swooning in
your general direction, Te darling, and blushing madly.
Hal,
waiting for Krycek
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Daddy793
<g> PWP is the abbreviation for that ancient and noble genre of fan fiction,
the Plot? What Plot? story.
Rules are:
1) Smut.
2) As little redeeming value as you can possibly manage.
3) Smut.
4) Smut.
Actually, I've seen the term has been applied to everything from shameless
raunchfests to character studies which *may or may not* include anything
resembling erotica. I think we need some new terms, personally.
RaValliano
>the Plot? What Plot? story.
>
>Rules are:
>
>1) Smut.
>2) As little redeeming value as you can possibly manage.
>3) Smut.
>4) Smut.
>
>Actually, I've seen the term has been applied to everything from shameless
>raunchfests to character studies which *may or may not* include anything
>resembling erotica. I think we need some new terms, personally.
>
Thanks for the clarification Te. I am hitting myself on the head since most of
the stuff I've written falls under this category <g> That being said, to go
back to the original topic of this thread, there aren't even very many PWP
stories about Scully and Krycek in which MSR is not at least a lingering
background force. It is a strange thing indeed. I think I've seen Krycek paired
with Pendrell more often and he's DEAD! Hmmm, off to continue pondering this
strange fanfic mystery :)
Rachel Anton
JourneyToX
>waiting for Krycek
Which is hopefully more productive than waiting for Godot.
Dragan Antulov
RaValliano wrote in message <19981203214526...@ng26.aol.com>...
>>>the other. I'm venturing a guess that most SKipper authors are using
>>>Scully as their proxy because they're hot for Krycek. I could be wrong.
>>I don't know why shouldn't they use Marita. It would be much closer to
canon
>>and more plausible. :)
>Well, personally I don't like, understand or relate to Marita and really
have
>no desire to write about her in my stories. Besides, the interest for me in
>Scully/Krycek is that it is indeed so far outside the canon, so different
than
>anything we've seen on the show. We all know Krycek and Marita did the
deed.
Well, before "Patient X" Krycek/Marita thing was also "outside the canon".
And, apart from learning that Krycek is het/bi, and that Marita hides
passion bellow her cool exterior, many things remain totally unknown in that
relationship.
>The question is, who cares? Then again, this is the same problem I'm facing
>trying to write straight MSR lately. We all know Scully and Mulder love
each
>other. I still care and it's one of my favorite aspects of the show but
it's
>been difficult for me to write about lately because it's become so obvious
on
>the show. Maybe that's just my own little odd quirk. I've become more and
more
>obsessed with writing about what we DON'T know, what we haven't seen. It's
>certainly more of a challenge that way.
I agree that people have an easier time writing about things that didn't
happen or wouldn't happen on the show. But even if some things *happen* on
the show, there is still enough room for writers to explore some new and
original angles.