Red Valerian, Flying Monkeys, and goodbyes
Flyngmonke
>hasn't even read the relevant story, others carry on talking as if
>she has. So now she's a plagiarist and a liar, huh?
I made what I thought was a simple comment. "Red Valerian"
resembled "Animal Crackers," the latter of which I happened to enjoy
more. God help the newbie poster (long time lurker) for having an
opinion and actually voicing it.
>I think people who make such accusations are beneath contempt.
Yet you've certainly lain out a great deal of contempt here. If I am one
who is so beneath it, why did you bother with such an in depth critique
of my obvious lack of story interpreting skills? I'm sure everyone picked
up on what an idiot I apparently am without you going through all that.
Jordan says Red Valerian would cross the road to avoid hurting someone.
I guess I'm the exception to the rule, eh? She crossed the road to slap
me silly. Should I be flattered? If so, thanks.
Dasha wants the thread to end, so fine. I won't bother making any more
puerile comments about this story--or any other for that matter. It is
painfully clear that only a certain few are wholly welcome here. If the
opinion varies from that of the collective, one is shunned. I understand
that now. I wish that were a part of the FAQ, for I would never have
posted my contrary thoughts.
Goodbye,
MG
Ces truffes puantes sont surfaites.
Canny409
>>hasn't even read the relevant story, others carry on talking as if
>>she has. So now she's a plagiarist and a liar, huh?
>
>I made what I thought was a simple comment. "Red Valerian"
>resembled "Animal Crackers," the latter of which I happened to enjoy
>more.
Actually, the accusation of plagiarism was pretty clear in your post. You
claimed you had "read the story before" when it was called "Animal Crackers."
And that's serious accusation. Actually, it's THE most serious accusation that
anyone can make around here, and it CANNOT be made lightly, without substantial
proof to back it up, and if you can't provide that proof, you're gonna get
bit.
And hard.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
>God help the newbie poster (long time >lurker) for having an
>opinion and actually voicing it.
Why? If people disagree with you, even vehemently, that is their right. And
you have the right to defend your opinions or leave them as orginally stated.
>
>>I think people who make such accusations are beneath contempt.
>
>Yet you've certainly lain out a great deal of contempt here. If I am one
>who is so beneath it, why did you bother with such an in depth critique
>of my obvious lack of story interpreting skills? I'm sure everyone picked
>up on what an idiot I apparently am without you going through all that.
It appears that you're hurt, but Red actually did the right thing. She
disagreed with your interpretation of the story and defended her opinion with
examples taken from the story.
That's what you're supposed to do in debates.
Look, people. You can't just post here and expect everyone to agree with you,
and the people who DO disagree with you to be all cuddly and kissy-face when
they do it.
Debates are NOT like that. They get heated. Passionate. Loud.
That's just human nature, guys.
>
>Dasha wants the thread to end, so fine. I won't bother making any more
>puerile comments about this story--or any other for that matter. It is
>painfully clear that only a certain few are wholly welcome here. If the
>opinion varies from that of the collective, one is shunned. I understand
>that now. I wish that were a part of the FAQ, for I would never have
>posted my contrary thoughts.
Oh, please.
Yeah, it's the Big Bad Cabal of Fanfic Queens (BBCOFQ) raising their ugly
collective head again. <rolling eyes>
This is a cop-out and a dumb one.
If you have an opinion, and you hit that "send" button, boys and girls, you
better be ready to stand by that opinion to the bitter end, change your mind
and retract it, or just let it go.
Or... think twice, thrice, TEN times before you post here.
The kitchen is hot, ladies and gents.
The air conditioner is that-a-way.
CiCi Lean
Rocnrods
>better be ready to stand by that opinion to the bitter end, change your mind
>and retract it, or just let it go.
>
>Or... think twice, thrice, TEN times before you post here.
>
>The kitchen is hot, ladies and gents.
>
>The air conditioner is that-a-way.
>
>CiCi Lean
in the words of fox mulder in detour
"Go Girl"
I agree with the list mamacita, MG made a smart alecky (no i didnt say alexy,
but i was tempted to) flip remark that came back and bit him or her in the
backside. Now that a serious discussion on plagiarism and criticism has
occurred and MG realized you need more than attitude to make an arguement, he
or she has decided to take his or her toys and go home. The phrase "dish it out
but can't take it" echoes through my mind. But the atxc will carry on as it
always does with or without MG's input , so long live the Big Bad Cabal of
Fanfic Queens and their Protocols on the Elders of MSR and PWP
Signed
Just another Lurker on the Atxc
Its a cold cruel world out there, sometimes I feel like I am getting a little
frosty myself-The Big Chill
Laura Burchard
MissElise <miss...@aol.com> wrote:
>Flyngmonke is flamed for posting an opinion. Flyngmonke is then flamed for
>walking away from the argument--as Dasha wanted the thread to end.
>Her opinion was insulted and she refused to take the bait, refused to fan the
>flames, likely knowing her second post would also be flamed. Indeed, her
>goodbye post was called a "cop-out." Is there no grace in this newsgroup? You
>beat the newbie to a pulp and she's gone. You have what you want, yes?
No, MG got slapped because she wasn't making any sort of useful critical
comment, she was being snarky and implying plagarism.
"Gee, I think I just read this story, only it was called "Animal Crackers"
and I enjoyed that one more."
Not, "I liked this other story with the same theme better (and here's
why)". "I just read this story." That's implying copying. People that
come on a writing group and throw around snide accusations like that are
going to get their asses spanked. Making that sort of comment and then
dancing away with wide eyed false innocence strike me a lot like throwing
a rock through a window and then being surprised when you get in trouble.
The unbelievable arrogance of some posters here just dumbfounds me. "I am
SUCH A GENIUS that when poaching from CC I'm the ONLY PERSON who could
have possibly thought of this tack, and so when someone else uses
something vaguely similar, I am justified in posting nastiness!" Or
worse, posting fake compassion. "I'll just let this one go by. Poor
little writer, couldn't come with her own ideas and stole mine, but I'll
be magnanimous and let it go." And then we have the freelance moralizers
like MG and Booboocato who do it on behalf of other people.
I am equally dumbfounded by the vicious "You used the same title as X
story!" attacks. Especially when the title is something completely
generic. A little email to the author to tell them that someone else used
the title too can be useful; the second author may prefer a unique one
and choose to change before submitting to archives. Instead, we get
shaking of fingers as if there's something *wrong* with using the same
title twice. Any more than using the same plot twice is wrong. Whether
deliberate or not. I am desperately hoping that the next person who posts
here and get attacked by "This is like [last weeks story]!" "You used
the same title!" answers with "Guess what? I don't care. Fuck off." I
would. But then I'm a well known bitch.
We've had one true case of plagarism in the community that I know of:
Greenfish. Took other's stories and barely changed them before submitting
them as her own. That's plagarism. The rest of the accusations have been
ego or officiousness. And wildly misplaced, considering that *everyone*
here is playing with someone else's characters and ideas.
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
Red Valerian
>
>We've had one true case of plagarism in the community that I know of:
>Greenfish. Took other's stories and barely changed them before submitting
>them as her own. That's plagarism. The rest of the accusations have been
>ego or officiousness. And wildly misplaced, considering that *everyone*
>here is playing with someone else's characters and ideas.
>
>Laura
>
Bravo. I couldn't agree more with what you've said here. I wasn't
going to post again, but I just couldn't resist.
And as for suggesting that the next person wrongfully accused of
plagiarism says, "Guess what? I don't care. Fuck off!"
Well, that bit of sensible advice has had me laughing for the last
ten minutes. And this is no mean feat on a day that began miserably,
with me finding *that* thread attached to *my* name!
So - thanks for the words of wisdom and for the smile.
And Dasha? I hope you listened to the advice. I'm looking forward to
the sequel.
Red Valerian
Canny409
>People that
>come on a writing group and throw around snide accusations like that are
>going to get their asses spanked.
Thank you. And they are going to get spanked hard too. Deservedly so.
Because there is NOTHING more destructive than a community that eyes itself
with mistrust, unfounded suspicion and is filled with pointing fingers.
Remember, plagiarism is the exactly same as STEALING. If you call someone a
plagiarist, you are calling them a thief.
And that's not a name to be taken lightly.
CiCi Lean
Sheare Bliss
enough that the thread she/she posted in immediately burst into flame. If
you'll read my post, you'll see that I underwent something very similar a
year ago. Once if became clear that the author of the second story
somehow had been convinced, the two people who made the accusation tried
to pass it off as, "Oh, it was just my opinion and that makes it okay."
Plagiarism is very serious. In my opinion, Flyngmonke's implication was,
indeed, that this was a case of plagiarism. Certainly, I was not the
only one. If FlyngMonke communicated imperfectly, it would a simple
matter, as I did, to state firmly that was not what she/he meant in their
original post. If she/he did indeed mean to suggest plagiarism, she/he
has a couple of other choices: Recant the statement, run away from the
newsgroup, claim his/her own point of view on the matter and restate it
more clearly, or apologize for wrongly making an accusation.
Those choices are fairly unequivocal.
Hinting at plagiarism isn't like criticizing someone's use of style or
their overuse of fanfic cliches.
Hinting at plagiarism is calling someone else a thief.
Regardless of what current mores may suggest, plagiarism is theft. It's
a theft of intellectual material.
If, as someone else has suggested, we are going to begin to hound each
other for congruency within a small universe, then it's time for this
newsgroup to go the way of the dinosaur.
If a mistake was made, admit it. If it was deliberate, either claim it or
apologize.
This kind of accusation is not a joke.
bliss
MissElise (miss...@aol.com) wrote:
: Flyngmonke is flamed for posting an opinion. Flyngmonke is then flamed for
: walking away from the argument--as Dasha wanted the thread to end.
: Her opinion was insulted and she refused to take the bait, refused to fan the
: flames, likely knowing her second post would also be flamed. Indeed, her
: goodbye post was called a "cop-out." Is there no grace in this newsgroup? You
: beat the newbie to a pulp and she's gone. You have what you want, yes?
: She let it go before CiCi ever advised that she do so. I suggest everyone else
: do the same.
: @>---`---,--- Elise made this!
: InvisiWriter...and I like it that way.
: http://members.aol.com/etobler/home.htm
: We ought, everyday, to hear a song, read a fine poem, and,
: if possible, speak a few reasonable words. --Goethe
--
Laura Burchard
Red Valerian <hg...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>We've had one true case of plagarism in the community that I know of:
>>Greenfish. Took other's stories and barely changed them before submitting
>>them as her own. That's plagarism. The rest of the accusations have been
>>ego or officiousness. And wildly misplaced, considering that *everyone*
>>here is playing with someone else's characters and ideas.
>Bravo. I couldn't agree more with what you've said here. I wasn't
>going to post again, but I just couldn't resist.
>And as for suggesting that the next person wrongfully accused of
>plagiarism says, "Guess what? I don't care. Fuck off!"
>Well, that bit of sensible advice has had me laughing for the last
>ten minutes. And this is no mean feat on a day that began miserably,
>with me finding *that* thread attached to *my* name!
I just find it so frustrating -- I keep seeing these threads where
someone who used the same title as one of the 8,000 other Xfics is
cringing and crawling, feeling like they have to apologize as various
people rake them over, when there's *nothing wrong with it*. If it's the
title you think fits your story best and you don't mind it being the same as
a previous story, go for it and don't feel bad about it.
And I feel even worse about the people who occasionally post about
stories they have strangled half-born or that hide on their hard drives,
because they saw another story with a similiar idea and they are afraid
they'll be accused of plagarism. Or the people, like Dasha, who post
stories like that and then feel like they have to justify and explain
it's just a coincidence. No more apologies, darn it! Just tell the
officious ones "How nice. Here, have a lollipop."
Let's say it all together: Plagarism is stealing someone else's words.
It's a horrible thing and people that do it should be roundly and
publically mocked. Plagarism not a story with the same idea. And dear
god, it's not 'style'.
>And Dasha? I hope you listened to the advice. I'm looking forward to
>the sequel.
Go girl!
jordan
just curious. asking for a friend, in fact. yeah, a friend...
I would never falsely accuse anyone of plagiarism, but is
there a...you know...lesser offense that is penalized by
spanking? Just curious.
just, you know...curious...
jordan, reading too much awfully-stern-Skinner tonight
Maureen S. O'Brien
Lesser writing offense, huh? Punishable by Skinner, huh?
<Maureen thinks>
Prostitution of the muse?
Maureen S. O'Brien
><Maureen thinks>
>Prostitution of the muse?
No, I got it! Corruption of a minor character! It's on the net, so
it's interstate, which makes it a federal crime! Yeah!
Either that or OPR has some interesting new disciplinary actions.
Maureen, who is only thinking about this 'cause Jordan brought it up.
JenRose
>And that's serious accusation. Actually, it's THE most serious
accusation that
>anyone can make around here, and it CANNOT be made lightly, without
substantial
>proof to back it up, and if you can't provide that proof, you're gonna
get
>bit.
Y'know, I was accused of plagiarism once, by a teacher.
He said, "She couldn't possibly have written that, the style is too
mature."
My mother <bless her heart> laughed at him, I think, and told him he
obviously hadn't been reading my other writing.
He had actually marked me down for it. Way down. We went over his head
to the head of the English department on that paper. I was furious.
I was being graded down because my writing was *too* good.
Not only that, but the section he'd said I'd plagiarized had a cite on
it. He could have simply read the cite and discovered I'd paraphrased,
as is appropriate in an academic paper.
I still think it's crazy that he made the accusation without bothering
to check the book or ask me.
That said, I think what we have here is a simple issue. It's a case of
"What you heard was not what I meant."
Flying Monkey did not intend to accuse Dasha of plagiarism, but the
wording was such that it was very easy for people to interpret it as an
accusation of plagiarism. Now everyone's all huffy, and no one seems
willing to say, "Okay, I misunderstood and it could have been phrased
better." and get on with it.
<sigh>
I keep wishing people would deliberately assume the best intentions and
go from there. "Did you mean this?" (Assuming they didn't, but checking)
"Did I understand you correctly?"
Sometimes a simple fact checking will really forstall an explosion of
misunderstanding.
<sigh>
JenRose - Haven
Queen of my domain!
http://www.jenrose.com
X-Phile T-shirts, Storytelling forum, Fanfiction, and more!
_________________________________________________________________
"Complex systems thrive at the thin edge of chaos."
__________________________________________________________________
Any discussion of conversational tactics can be elaborated at:
http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html
R. Scott Carr
> I just find it so frustrating -- I keep seeing these threads where
> someone who used the same title as one of the 8,000 other Xfics is
> cringing and crawling, feeling like they have to apologize
Here's a simple solution to what seems to be a minor problem about titles.
Please follow this easy, four-step program:
1. Write story.
2. Come up with a title.
3. Go to Gossamer and check the "by title" view.
4. If you find the title you wanted there, go back to step 2. Otherwise, post
story.
End of controversy.
--
Scott Carr
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7503
Circe
Oh sure, it *sounds* easy. <g>
--
Circe
The Titanium Magnolia
SPCDD, MDL
If those were my last words I can do better.--Fox Mulder
Laura Burchard
R. Scott Carr <car...@mediasoft.net> wrote:
>Here's a simple solution to what seems to be a minor problem about titles.
>Please follow this easy, four-step program:
>1. Write story.
>2. Come up with a title.
>3. Go to Gossamer and check the "by title" view.
>4. If you find the title you wanted there, go back to step 2. Otherwise, post
>story.
>End of controversy.
Two things: first, not all stories are in Gossamer. And even stories that
will eventually end up there will not turn up for months. In fact, the
last time the subject came up, the story that the person was publically
complaining about wasn't on Gossamer -- the poor second author didn't
have a chance even if they cared.
And that's the lead to the second point. If you, as an author, have a
passion for your title being unique up to that point, sure, head for
Gossamer (and MKRA/MSSS/ArchiveX/etc etc etc.) But if you *don't* care,
you just like the title and it sings with the story for you, then there's
no reason to worry.
"Ohmygod, JC Sun, you used "Red Herring" as a title and someone else did
two years ago! Whip yourself."
There is NO REASON why someone should not use a title again. It happens
*all* *the* *time* in the real world. It happens *all* *the* *time* in
fanfic already; look through Gossamer some time. If people cannot manage
to read author names and tell X by Y from X by Z, that's no more Z's
responsibility than if they can't tell A by B from C by B.
The only moral exception would be titles deliberately designed to be
deceiving -- if someone writes "The Adventures of Mickey and Mikey in
X-Files Land" you probably shouldn't use "The Further Adventures of Mickey
and Mikey in X-Files Land." And I'm not sure even that matters much if you
do.
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
writes:
>
>The only moral exception would be titles deliberately designed to be
>deceiving -- if someone writes "The Adventures of Mickey and Mikey in
>X-Files Land"
Is this on Gossamer??
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