"A KeyChain in the snow"
Tracey
I have to be honest, the character death did throw me, but the story was awesome!
You have a real writing talent! Please don't let the other yahoo's that can't deal
with disappoint or loss make you stop writing!!! You are way too talented for that!
:)
As for the one's who are doing the slamming...GROW UP!!!!!!! AND LEARN SOME
MANNERS!!!!!! How would you like it if this were you???????
A fan of anything X-File's....not just the popular.
Tracey
PARAMECEUM wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> Never haver I felt so Highly reguarded as to be so publicly slammed.
>
> Let Me explain why I am being Slammed... I have never done this before. This
> is the first... and it seems from the public beating that i am receiving,
> probably the last time I have ever posted a story. People Make mistakes. So
> beat me up because I am the new kid on the block. Beat me up because you dont
> like the way the story went. But Dont beat me up and tell me that I did not
> put in a warning because I was insecure. Dont Assume I was creating Irony
> because I didnt warn you that someone was going to die.
>
> Am I sorry I didnt put in The appropriate warnings. Yes I am sorry. Am I sorry
> that I made a mistake? Yes. Am I sorry that everyone didnt like the story?
> Yes I am sorry for that too... But I once learned that you cant please
> everyone. Am I sorry that I posted this story at all.... Sadly I must say a
> resounding YES.
>
> I was hoping that I would put my little piece of fiction into the all migfhty
> vaults of this news group in the hopes of some constructive criticism. I was
> hoping that this would be my sounding board so that I might become a better
> writer. Instead I feel as though I have been branded with some awful scarlet
> letter that says I am, amongst other things, insecure. This has backfired
> terribly. All that i have learned from this experience is that f I do not
> write to the conforms of the rest of you almighty folks then dont bother or
> feel free to be publicly beaten.
>
> I seem to remember stating very clearly in my opening that ths was teh first
> time i was ever posting. Hell the only reason i had anything in there was
> because my beta reader.... yes I did have one, put it into the copy that she
> emailed me. I guess that you almighty folks are not all that willing to let
> new kids join your club.
>
> As far as the ending goes,( I cant believe that I feel the need to justify what
> the hell I wrote) It was not meant as a shock ending. In my mind it made
> perfect sense and there were several albeit subtle hints that lead to it.
> (Mulder says now he can rest,.... He says to scully this will never happen
> again...) Was it a rational thing to do... NO... is that action ever a
> rational thing to do... NO. I tried to build to the fact that he was in no way
> behaving rationally. I tried to show how much harm he has caused her. I tried
> to build to it... and maybe if i was a better writer I would have done a better
> job at that... but geez I cant be a better writer if I cant write.
>
> I have worked with people who have taken this action... I have seen people do
> this when it seems they are at the happiest points in their life. If you feel
> that you are the sole root and cause of someones problems you will often take
> drastic measures to illeviate that problem.... even if it is ones self. Even
> if that other individual is alive, well, and does not blame you. This is teh
> angle I took with Mulder. Scully was well... Scully was Fine... he did
> everything he could to make sure of that. Once he was sure that she was OK
> then He could take care of the root problem. That is the angle I took. I am
> sorry if you dont agree with it. I am sorry if you didnt like it, but that was
> the way I was looking at it.
>
> As far as the warning... In the if I decide to ever post again.... I will make
> Certain that Character Deaths are explicitly labeled with CHARACTER DEATH. and
> if there is no Character Death... Then it will be explicitly labeled NO
> CHARACTER DEATH.
>
> Please pardon the new Kid... she is a little slow and is prone to making
> mistakes.
>
> Lisa M. Pantano
>
>
Dena M. Renti Cruz
param...@aol.com says...
>This is the first... and it seems from the public beating that i am
>receiving, probably the last time I have ever posted a story.
I hope not, Lisa, since your first story was pretty good. & the ending
wasn't that much of a shock. Since when does Mulder do anything that
makes sense? ;-)
As for warnings, hate 'em, hate 'em, wouldn't wanna date 'em! (Except the
MSR warnings - we need more of those!:) & I'm glad I read your story
w/out the warning b/c then it would have lost all the emotional impact
had I known what was going to happen.
So don't let this get you down. And write more. God knows we need more
GOOD X-Files writers this season....
* Dena
PARAMECEUM
Never haver I felt so Highly reguarded as to be so publicly slammed.
Let Me explain why I am being Slammed... I have never done this before. This
is the first... and it seems from the public beating that i am receiving,
Brandon Ray
1. The author of this story did not mean to offend, and should not have been
attacked, to the extent that this happened. I know that my posts on the matter were
not intended to be attacks, but they may have been taken as such.
2. The people who posted objections are not "yahoos" and most (I truly believe) were
not intended to slam anyone. They were making a legitimate complaint about a point of
etiquette. I hasten to add that not every user of this ng agrees on this point of
etiquette, and I acknowledge that this is an anarchy, and therefore not subject to
enforceable rules...but the very fact that it is an anarchy ALSO means that if you
offend someone's sensibilities (even inadvertently, as in this case) you are liable to
hear about it. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Tracey wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I have to be honest, the character death did throw me, but the story was awesome!
> You have a real writing talent! Please don't let the other yahoo's that can't deal
> with disappoint or loss make you stop writing!!! You are way too talented for that!
> :)
>
> As for the one's who are doing the slamming...GROW UP!!!!!!! AND LEARN SOME
> MANNERS!!!!!! How would you like it if this were you???????
>
> A fan of anything X-File's....not just the popular.
>
>
--
"If I heard 'Silent Night' one more time I was going to start taking hostages."
--Special Agent Dana Scully, "The Ghosts Who Stole Christmas"
=================
Okay, I succumbed. I've established an online archive of my own X-Files fanfic:
Teddi Litman
Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net> wrote:
>Y'know, I think that we all could stand to take a deep breath and maybe a
step back.
>
>1. The author of this story did not mean to offend, and should not have
been
>attacked, to the extent that this happened. I know that my posts on the
matter were
>not intended to be attacks, but they may have been taken as such.
>
>2. The people who posted objections are not "yahoos" and most (I truly
believe) were
>not intended to slam anyone. They were making a legitimate complaint about
a point of
>etiquette. I hasten to add that not every user of this ng agrees on this
point of
>etiquette, and I acknowledge that this is an anarchy, and therefore not
subject to
>enforceable rules...but the very fact that it is an anarchy ALSO means that
if you
>offend someone's sensibilities (even inadvertently, as in this case) you
are liable to
>hear about it. And there's nothing wrong with that.
While I don't agree with Brandon on the issue of warnings, I do agree *none*
of our posts on either sides were personal "slams" on Lisa. Now she may not
agree with some of our interpretations of her story, but that hardly makes
any of those a slam. I saw her ending as an attempt at irony. She doesn't
agree. <shrug> I'm certainly not going to apologize for that.
Misinterpretation of the author's intent is not a slam. Maybe she could
think about why I didn't get the *real* point; maybe she could think about
what she can do better so her intent is better expressed. Or maybe not.
Maybe her story is perfect, and I just a big old stupid meanie who doesn't
get it.
As for the claim that anyone called her insecure, no one claimed Lisa was
insecure. On the contrary, I do believe I stated I thought she was
courageous. The discussion that arose from reactions to Lisa's story was
about warnings. My point was when I see a whole bunch of warnings (non-adult
content warnings) about plot developments before the story starts, I see
that as an indication of an author's insecurity about their story. Have I
read good stories with plot development warnings? Certainly. Is every
author who includes plot development warnings in a story insecure about
thier story? Certainly not. However, if it is not an author whose stories
I've enjoyed in the past or I haven't heard really good things about the
story, I will usually skip a story with something like a character death
warning. Rightly or wrongly, it negatively prejudices me towards the story.
That's why I hate the call for plot development warnings. That was my
point. Brandon, I believe, felt the opposite: that the omission of certain
warnings may indicate an author's insecurity in their story. <shrug> Who's
right? Who knows? Despite the disagreement of what exactly the impact is, it
seems obvious to me that all the stuff writers put before the story starts
*does* have a definite impact on the readers' overall perceptions of the
story. Now some may claim this recurring discussion is only hurtful and
futile because we'll never agree. However, I think interesting things can be
gleaned from the discussion. It's not all about reaching a concensus. And it
certainly isn't at all about slamming Lisa.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
param...@aol.com (PARAMECEUM) wrote:
>
>I was hoping that I would put my little piece of fiction into the all
migfhty
>vaults of this news group in the hopes of some constructive criticism. I
was
>hoping that this would be my sounding board so that I might become a better
>writer.
No, frankly from reading this, I don't think you *really* were ready for
constructive criticism. That's really and truly ok. You can write a "Please
be gentle," or a "Let me know if you like it," in your feedback request.
Many new authors do. Hey, you can even write "I would appreciate if all
responses to this story were sent to me privately." Though, for reasons I
don't understand, no one ever seems to choose this option. Yet people who
end up responding publically tend to get painted as big old meanies.
I think you need to be a little more honest with us and more importantly
yourself and not write "Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated
but hey I would like to know if you just read it or even read it and hated
it." if that's not what you really want here. I admit it is a difficult
thing to be truly honest with yourself about; but with writers here often
complaining there is not enough feedback, I think writers really need to
make a effort to better communicate the type of feedback they *really* want.
Instead I feel as though I have been branded with some awful scarlet
>letter that says I am, amongst other things, insecure. This has backfired
>terribly. All that i have learned from this experience is that f I do not
>write to the conforms of the rest of you almighty folks then dont bother or
>feel free to be publicly beaten.
>
I'm sorry you feel that way; but I just can't equate the discussion that
arouse from reactions to your story in any way with a public beating. None
of the posts were personal attacks on you. No one claimed you specifically
and personally were insecure or anything else. In fact, much of the
discussion was not even about your story specifically. It was just a thread
that happened to be spurred by your story. Sometimes that happens here.
Something in a story will happen to inspire an interesting discussion. It
usually stops being about the specific story after three or four posts. The
*only* regret I have about my own part in the disscussion was that I told
Gabbygale to "Get over it." I shouldn't have done that. It was flip, smart
alecky, and frankly uncalled for. I do feel bad you feel hurt; but I really
don't think that's my fault or the fault of *anyone* in this Ng.
and maybe if i was a better writer I would have done a better
>job at that... but geez I cant be a better writer if I cant write.
>
Why can't you write? If that's what you want to do, then by all means do
it. Even if someone here was in some way encouraging you not to write, not
to post (which I honestly can't see it any way, shape or form), why would
you listen to them? You can try to make us feel guilty. You can try to
paint us as cruel, ugly, arrogant meanies. You may even get some to
sympathize and agree with you. However, you are ultimately the *only* person
responsible when it comes down to whether you will continue to write.
Like I stated earlier, it was a *courageous* thing you did in posting that
story. I would hope that quality continues. I hope you continue writing if
that's what you really want to do. However, that's still completely up to
you.
Teddi
R. Scott Carr
> Greetings.
>
> Never haver I felt so Highly reguarded as to be so publicly slammed. <snip>
To begin, for the author, I will note that this ng is noteworthy for its lack of
sympathy. I don't imagine that complaints such as this one will change that, so my
advice is, take your lumps.
I will refrain from commenting on the merits (or lack thereof) of the story in
question.
As for the rest of you...
Look people, nobody warned me that Bambi's mother was going to get shot, so I don't
want to hear complaints about the lack of a character death warning, or a rape
warning, for that matter. The world of literature (and tripe) is a dangerous
place. Grammar is mutilated. Punctuation is done almost at random. Diction
ranges from pretentious to silly.
And characters die.
All that an author owes the reader is a rating, such as 'R (for violence)' or
'NC-17 (for sex)' or 'NC-17 (for disturbing themes)'. In theory, this gives those
few parents who are aware that they have children the opportunity to screen their
reading. It also gives some indication of how traumatic the story will be. If you
can't handle that sort of story, then stay away.
So, why put on category labels, such as MSR or Scully/Skinner? To me, these are a
horse of a different color. Unlike character death warnings, which reveal major
plot points in advance, categories serve to inform the reader of the author's
fundamental views on TXF and the all-important Relationship, without giving the
game away.
Personally, I don't care to read Scully/Skinner stories. At best, they are an
exploration of territory that I don't particularly care to visit. More often, they
are the product of a fundamental misperception of the show and its characters.
Thus, if I visit an archive and find that so-and-so has written 15 Scully/Skinner
smutfics and 1 MSR, I know not to waste my time on that person's writing.
On the other hand, if I find a story labeled MSR, I know that the author
understands at least one important thing. I then can proceed to try the story
out. I don't know what will happen in the story (sure, there is the chance, even
the probability of M/S sex, though this is not certain), or even if it will be any
good. However, especially if the story is a casefile, no crucial plot points will
have been given away at the outset. And that's how a story should be.
Of course, if I started seeing tripe warnings on some of what's posted here, I have
to admit, I'd appreciate it.
--
Scott Carr
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7503
Brandon Ray
"R. Scott Carr" wrote:
>
> Look people, nobody warned me that Bambi's mother was going to get shot, so I don't
> want to hear complaints about the lack of a character death warning, or a rape
> warning, for that matter. The world of literature (and tripe) is a dangerous
> place. Grammar is mutilated. Punctuation is done almost at random. Diction
> ranges from pretentious to silly.
So sorry, but many of us feel that character death (and other) warnings are proper
etiquette. No one can force an author to place warnings on a story -- this is an
anarchy. But when someone leaves off such a warning, they are likely going to hear
about it. So I guess what I'm saying is that you are going to hear these complaints
off and on, whether you want to or not.
>
>
> And characters die.
>
> All that an author owes the reader is a rating, such as 'R (for violence)' or
> 'NC-17 (for sex)' or 'NC-17 (for disturbing themes)'. In theory, this gives those
> few parents who are aware that they have children the opportunity to screen their
> reading. It also gives some indication of how traumatic the story will be. If you
> can't handle that sort of story, then stay away.
This is completely illogical. If the author is not obligated to place a character
death warning on a story, then why is s/he "obigated" to put an MPAA rating on the
story? The specific content warnings are MUCH more meaningful than an MPAA warning.
The MPAA's are practically worthless, even when the MPAA issues them -- when they're
issued by fifty individual authors, each with their own idea of what each subcategory
means, well....
>
>
> So, why put on category labels, such as MSR or Scully/Skinner? To me, these are a
> horse of a different color. Unlike character death warnings, which reveal major
> plot points in advance, categories serve to inform the reader of the author's
> fundamental views on TXF and the all-important Relationship, without giving the
> game away.
Nuts. MSR or Scully/Skinner or whatever ALSO reveal major plot points. There are a
handful of stories (comparatively speaking) where the personal relationships of the
characters are not important to the plot, but those are the exception rather than the
rule.
>
>
> Personally, I don't care to read Scully/Skinner stories. At best, they are an
> exploration of territory that I don't particularly care to visit. More often, they
> are the product of a fundamental misperception of the show and its characters.
> Thus, if I visit an archive and find that so-and-so has written 15 Scully/Skinner
> smutfics and 1 MSR, I know not to waste my time on that person's writing.
>
Personally, *I* don't care to read character death stories, with very few exceptions.
I'd take a chance on an author who I trust to handle the matter well -- Rachel Anton,
or Sheryl Martin, for instance. And there are a handful of others, so no one need
feel snubbed.
But the real question I have is why your desire to avoid Scully/Skinner stories (which
I happen to share) is more important than MY desire to avoid character death stories?
>
>
>
> Of course, if I started seeing tripe warnings on some of what's posted here, I have
> to admit, I'd appreciate it.
*snicker* Gotta give you that one.... ;)
CiCi Lean2
>More often, they
>are the product of a fundamental misperception of the show and its
>characters.
>Thus, if I visit an archive and find that so-and-so has written 15
>Scully/Skinner
>smutfics and 1 MSR, I know not to waste my time on that person's writing.
*sigh*
So, if you write anything besides MSRs, you are a clueless dink. Right?
Oh, well.
I think I'll enjoy my dinkhood. Gives me something to talk about when the
giftfic runs out...
CiCi Lean
(who is so stupid that a good author can often maker her see Skinner/Scully and
Mulder/Krycek, just as well as M/S...)
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<dayb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
snip
> No, frankly from reading this, I don't think you *really* were ready for
>constructive criticism.
I have to second this. I'm basically a non-fan-fic writer, and I'm
used to getting ripped up on details of the writing from my writer's
group. A response like the original writer's to any critiques is a
blatant signal they aren't at the point where constructive critique is
possible.
The original writer Would Really Not Like what I have to say about the
story--all mechanics, and my problem with the ending ties into it
coming way out from the middle of nowhere.
Okay, it's not *that* bad.
I just don't think the logic was fully developed.
jrw
R. Scott Carr
> So sorry, but many of us feel that character death (and other) warnings are proper
> etiquette.
Yes, but this is not accepted atxc ettiquette. I've seen dozens of these arguments unfold
here, and that in itself suggests that atxc does not have an accepted culture regarding
content warnings. (This is not a case of one troll causing trouble -- atxc has at least
two major factions related to this issue.)
> This is completely illogical. If the author is not obligated to place a character
> death warning on a story, then why is s/he "obigated" to put an MPAA rating on the
> story?
I don't see what is so difficult about this -- the ratings are a common standard in
American culture, at a minimum. Everyone knows what a "R" more or less means. Granted,
no system is perfect, but ratings can and do give a potential reader an idea of what to
expect -- without giving away plot points. That's the key distinction. I don't agree
that MPAA ratings are "worthless," obviously.
> Nuts. MSR or Scully/Skinner or whatever ALSO reveal major plot points. There are a
> handful of stories (comparatively speaking) where the personal relationships of the
> characters are not important to the plot, but those are the exception rather than the
> rule.
I tend not to agree.
Look at it this way -- there are plenty of M/S sex stories that do not involve romance.
"Shatter" by Vehemently is a good example, I think, and was properly labelled XA, rather
than XRA. There are MSR stories that do not involve consummation of the romance --
stories that differ from UST stories, I might add. And while it's true that many, perhaps
most MSR stories are erotica, that forms a special category wherein plot is not usually a
major issue.
What I'm driving at is this: the Gossamer conventions that *are* the (more or less)
accepted culture at this ng provide useful guidelines that do not tip the author's hand
the way "character death" or "Scully gets raped" warnings do.
> But the real question I have is why your desire to avoid Scully/Skinner stories (which
> I happen to share) is more important than MY desire to avoid character death stories?
I didn't say that it was, actually. I've made my point about plots and the difference
between knowing the author's outlook vs. knowing the story's outcome, so all that I'll say
here is that:
1) Gossamer categorization is accepted atxc culture.
2) If I decide to read an unlabelled story, I don't complain about its content.
Circe
> All that an author owes the reader is a rating, such as 'R (for violence)' or 'NC-17
> (for sex)' or 'NC-17 (for disturbing themes)'.
Actually, no author owes any reader anything except the best story the author is
capable of writing. That and spell checking.
--
Circe
The Titanium Magnolia
SPCDD, DD/FM ListMom, Sorceress--MM
If those were my last words, I can do better.--Fox Mulder
Gabbygale
Thank you for the apology. It was kind of you and i appeciated it.
To the author of "A KeyChain in the Snow" Since I fear i started this with my
request for a label of character death i feel i should apologize to you. I did
not mean to start an argument or hurt your feelings. If it makes you feel any
better, the story was good enough to keep me interested up until the last line.
It is my own personal decision not to read character death stories and that
should not make you or anyone else stop writing them because there are a lot of
people out there who do like them. They are not wrong and neither am i we just
have different likes. Keep writing, just know that all people will not want to
read what you write because they just do not enjoy the plot line. That and
especially the fact that you chose not to or simply forgot to label your story
does not make your writing bad. Keep writing!!!!
Gabbygale
Pyrephox18
it's neccessary to publicly critique a new author's *first* post to the
newsgroup?
Wouldn't it have been a bit more urbane to e-mail the author with your
opinions, then add maybe one notice to the newsgroup (if you really felt it was
needed) that the story was character death?
Pyrephox- who probably wouldn't still be here if her *first* post had been
subjected to this on the ng, instead of being quietly ignored like it was. ;P
Filk-lover, Fanficker, Gamer, Happy Little Pagan (tm), X-Phile, Pezhead, etc.
-
The only problem with mortality is that you die.
Megan
> 2) If I decide to read an unlabelled story, I don't complain about its content.
Thank you! That needed to be said.
Categorizations have their place. They help many of us determine what
we do or don't want to read.
In some cases, categorizations or warnings reveal too many of the plot
points. They are also in the eye of the beholder - something I consider
MSR is not necessarily an MSR in someone else's eyes.
Ultimately, it is the author's choice whether to label. I think this is
something authors here do give thought to. So maybe we should respect
their decisions.
Megan
GeoRed
In article <3687931A...@avalon.net>, Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net>
writes:
>> Look people, nobody warned me that Bambi's mother was going to get shot, so
>I don't
>> want to hear complaints about the lack of a character death warning, or a
>rape
>> warning, for that matter. The world of literature (and tripe) is a
>dangerous
>> place. Grammar is mutilated. Punctuation is done almost at random.
>Diction
>> ranges from pretentious to silly.
>
>So sorry, but many of us feel that character death (and other) warnings are
>proper
>etiquette. No one can force an author to place warnings on a story -- this
>is an
>anarchy. But when someone leaves off such a warning, they are likely going
>to hear
>about it. So I guess what I'm saying is that you are going to hear these
>complaints
>off and on, whether you want to or not.
I would love to know how everyone here reads any actual literature. None of it
has warnings.
Heidi
::::::::with head in hands, rocking slowly::::::::::
"It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter."
<Mulder: He's not just lean.......he's cuisine.>
Shanna...@pnx.com
Everybody has different tastes. I rarely will read a story without a
rating and categorization and I prefer to have rape and character
death warnings, but that's my opinion, my personal likes. Doesn't mean
the author is required to do so. That's the author's choice. The main
reason for categorizations is to see what you want to read. For
example, slash fans or angst fans (I'm one of the latter) can
immediately see if this is something that they might like to read.
While I like MSR very much, I usually prefer it within the context of
a case story. In other words, I don't much care for PWPs, although
sometimes I do get in the mood for them.
Does that mean everybody should just write what I like to read?
Of course not. First and foremost, write what you feel the urge to
write. The main person you must please is yourself. If someone else
enjoys your work, then you know you've at least succeeded partially in
getting your message across. The more people who say they understood
and liked what you wrote, the more successful you are.
On 28 Dec 1998 17:47:58 GMT, laliz...@aol.com (LaLizWoman) wrote:
><<<Oh gawd! I'm stupid toooooooo!!!! Oh wait--this is a good thing... >:)>>>
>
>I resemble that remark. Then again, I'll read ANYTHING as long as it is well
>written. I don't limit myself in such a way.
>
>Is now an appropriate time to say that some of the worst fanfic I've ever tried
>to read was MSR?
>
>Prolly not.
>
>I'm just plain stupid folks. :P But then again, I'm not known as a BYFP for
>nothing. :P
>
>
>
>
>la
>
>I lit up all the candles
>and I turned out all the lights
>and I waited up all hours
>but she did not come by last night
>she is beautiful as music
>but jealous to the bone
>and she will only love you
>if you love her alone
>
>~courting the muse~
>Susan Werner
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List manager
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Teddi Litman
pyrep...@aol.com (Pyrephox18) wrote:
>People, regardless on your position about the labels thing, do you really
think
>it's neccessary to publicly critique a new author's *first* post to the
>newsgroup?
>
>Wouldn't it have been a bit more urbane to e-mail the author with your
>opinions, then add maybe one notice to the newsgroup (if you really felt it
was
>needed) that the story was character death?
>
>Pyrephox- who probably wouldn't still be here if her *first* post had been
>subjected to this on the ng, instead of being quietly ignored like it was.
;P
>
Ok, this is an interesting point. I recently found myself expressing my own
feelings towards public critique in an e-mail corresponence. I will post it
here... editing out the private stuff, of course.
This brings up another issue I have with some of the so-called
"customs" of the community. Many people, again usually in what I think
is a misguided attempt to be more
kind, believe any comment on a story that is not complete praise should
only be sent via e-mail. I disagree with this. First of all, if it is
truly an attack, it leaves the author stuck on how s/he can defend
him/herself. Second, it leaves no opportunity for other
readers to respond to the comment with their own opinions. Most people
will only volunteer feedback if they absolutely loved it or if they had
serious problems with it. Therefore, a story which may have several good
points but also has flaws will often only get the most extreme negative
response. I believe though, if that negative response gets posted
publicly, it will likely draw the people who liked the story but didn't
think it was perfect out of the woodwork to post about the story's
strengths. That's just my theory though. <shrug>
Either way, one might want to ask some writers if it
is *really* the stuff that gets posted publically that
is the harshest and the hardest to deal with.
That said, I readily admit some of *my* more critical comments on stories
have only been sent via e-mail. I have wondered whether that was
particularly fair, actually. If it's public, at least it's open to
rebuttal from other readers. If I'm really honest, I'd probably
have to admit that my motivations for sending a criticism via e-mail
often deal with my own lack of courage than an attempt to be more kind.
Anyone have any thoughts about the potential advantages to the writer of
having criticism posted publicly?
Teddi
Flukewoman
I posted a reply to your other post, by Bullen's, and I think that was sort
of rude. I said that I was confued and that I didn't understand why Mulder
killed himself..and then I found out...and then I said that I don't picture
Mulder killing himself. Was that rude anyway?
Well anyway....I saw all the replys that people send you. And I was like
"Whats worng with these people." (no offense to all of you, you apologized>
I thought that what they said was mean and stuff. So I read your story to
see if what it was about. And I liked it! It's was nice.
And nicelu writting. (better than what I write = ]. ) I am dying to know
what Mulder wrote in that note, and what everone saw dead Mulder, Scully's
fellings for his death and other stuff. Please make a sequel!!
Fluke
Christina L Bloebau
>>"R. Scott Carr" wrote:
>> All that an author owes the reader is a rating, such as
>>'R (for violence)' or 'NC-17
>> (for sex)' or 'NC-17 (for disturbing themes)'.
>
>Actually, no author owes any reader anything except the
>best story the author is
>capable of writing. That and spell checking.
i'm plowing into this discussion for the first time because it's really
struck a cord in me. i read the 'keychain' story and was thinking it
was a nicely written, well-plotted story. enjoyable. right up to the
last few @#$#@ sentences.
i DO NOT read character death. i DO NOT read slash. perhaps authors do
not OWE others an indication of classification, but i look at it as a
courtesy. a simple courtesy to those for whom you are supposedly
posting. frankly, i have enough stress and frustration in my life that
i look at atxc as a wonderful release and escape. i don't appreciate
being 'tricked' (my word for my perception of the situation, not
indicative of the authors' intent).
i also have almost no time whatsoever to read and hence use the
classifications as a means of screening. i do not read anything that
doesn't have a summary or classification.
authors can do what they want, i agree, but i still believe it a common
courtesy to label character death and slash, if nothing else, since
there are so many who feel so strongly about it.
kronos
Teddi Litman
Christina L Bloebau <c...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>authors can do what they want, i agree, but i still believe it a common
>courtesy to label character death and slash, if nothing else, since
>there are so many who feel so strongly about it.
>
>kronos
Refraining to spit on people is a "common" courtesy; because *nobody* likes to
be spit on. Character death warnings are NOT "common" courtesy when there
are so many who feel so strongly *against* them. Putting in a character death
warning is a courtesy to Christina L Bloebau because *you* like having them;
it is not a courtesy to those who feel they spoil the story.
Teddi
Christina L Bloebau
>Refraining to spit on people is a "common" courtesy; because *nobody* likes to
>be spit on. Character death warnings are NOT "common" courtesy when there
>are so many who feel so strongly *against* them. Putting in a character death
>warning is a courtesy to Christina L Bloebau because *you* like having them;
>it is not a courtesy to those who feel they spoil the story.
yep, clb and a whole HELL of a lot of other people. you can either have
some respect for the large number of people who find lack of character
death warnings offensive or not. your call. i'm just telling you my
pov.
what i don't understand about this entire issue is what the authors lose
by actually stating it's a character death story. we have established,
i believe, that MANY readers who are taken unaware DO lose since they
feel betrayed. so what does the author lose by actually coming out and
stating the fact so that it doesn't ruin someone's day!? i apologize
for being too dense to appreciate this.
now i'm outta here and refuse to say another word on the topic.
kronos
Teddi Litman
Christina L Bloebau <c...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>Teddi wrote
>>Refraining to spit on people is a "common" courtesy; because *nobody*
likes to
>>be spit on. Character death warnings are NOT "common" courtesy when
there
>>are so many who feel so strongly *against* them. Putting in a character
death
>>warning is a courtesy to Christina L Bloebau because *you* like having
them;
>>it is not a courtesy to those who feel they spoil the story.
>
>yep, clb and a whole HELL of a lot of other people. you can either have
>some respect for the large number of people who find lack of character
>death warnings offensive or not. your call. i'm just telling you my
>pov.
>
Or you can have some respect for the large number of people who find
character death warnings and other plot development warnings seriously
compromise their reading experience. Your call. See, it works both ways.
>what i don't understand about this entire issue is what the authors lose
>by actually stating it's a character death story.
Um ... the intended emotional impact of their story?
Every reader who doesn't want to be spoiled? Every reader who will tends to
be prejudiced that the story is just another weepy, melodramatic Hollywood
inspired death scene story when the author choses to *classify* the story as
a "character death story?" As a reader I tend to see a huge differentiation
between a story that includes a character death and a "character death
story."
we have established,
>i believe, that MANY readers who are taken unaware DO lose since they
>feel betrayed. so what does the author lose by actually coming out and
>stating the fact so that it doesn't ruin someone's day!?
If a person honestly *feels betrayed* or has their whole day ruined by plot
developments in fictional stories, I would suggest that person stop reading
fiction until he or she has certain emotional problems resolved.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
"Kai Nikulainen" <Kai.Nik...@sci.fi> wrote:
>R. Scott Carr kirjoitti viestissä <368818AC...@earthlink.net>...
>>2) If I decide to read an unlabelled story, I don't complain about its
>content.
>
>You are right, it would be silly to complain about the contents of an
>unlabeled story. However, the story which started this debate this time,
>was originally labeled
>
>>CATEGORY: M/S/S friendship
>>KEYWORDS: angst
>
>In this case the omission of a character death warning wasn't intentional.
>But usually when the author decides to use categories and keywords, IMO a
>death warning is something which definitely should be included.
>
So, it's all or nothing, huh? Why not just put the whole story in the
labeling section ... that would please everyone who likes labels. What? Oh,
putting the whole story in the labeling section is just like no label at
all? Oh well, can't please *everyone*.
>Unless of course it's Krycek who gets killed, I wouldn't mind if he died
>without warning in the author's notes section :-)
>
>Kaitsu
>
*You* wouldn't mind; but what about all those who don't want to see Krycek
killed? Perhaps authors can just take note of what each and every reader
would like to see or not like to see, then whenever they post stories they
can write an e-mail to each and every reader with the type of labeling they
prefer. Something like this.
kronos,
I know you don't like character death. So don't read my next story, because
someone does die in it.
pleaseeveryoneauthor
Kaitsu,
Neither Mulder or Scully die in my story. I know you only want to be
warned if that happens. So my story is safe for you.
pleaseeveryoneauthor
Teddi,
I know you don't like plot development spoilers. So I'll just tell you it
is an MSR story.
pleaseeveryoneauthor
See, now isn't that ridiculous? There's nothing wrong with appreciating
warnings; but there is a problem when one comes to *expect* them or one
considers an author *rude* for not including warnings about things one
*personally* doesn't like.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
"Kai Nikulainen" <Kai.Nik...@sci.fi> wrote:
>Circe kirjoitti viestissä <36882AAD...@mindspring.com>...
>
>>Actually, no author owes any reader anything except the best story the
>author is
>>capable of writing. That and spell checking.
>
>
>And every writer eventually gets the kind of readers she/he deserves.
>Warnings and categories attract some readers and repel others. There just
>isn't any way making everyone happy and one shouldn't even try.
>
>Kaitsu
>
>
Amen! Now about the all or nothing stance ... some people like categories
but not plot development warnings. So that's what my previous post was
about: just because a writer chooses to categorize a story as "angst" and
"M/S/Sk friendship" does not mean they should feel required to follow
through with a "character death" warning, because the all or nothing choice
doesn't please everyone any more than anything else does.
Teddi
Circe
> authors can do what they want, i agree, but i still believe it a common
> courtesy to label character death and slash, if nothing else, since there
> are so many who feel so strongly about it.
>
I wrote a story last year in which Mulder visited Krycek. At the end of the
story, it was revealed that Mulder was actually dead at the time of the
visit, therefore, Krycek was actually interacting with Mulder's ghost. Now,
had I put a big old "Character death" warning on the story there'd have been
no reason for me to write it and no reason to read it as the end of the
story would have already been revealed.
No writer should ever be obligated to reveal plot points of his/her story,
common courtesy or not. There are several story types that I don't like and
if I find myself reading one, I stop and delete the story.
Just for the record, I rarely read things without summaries or
classifications, unless I know the author because of lack of time. But I
don't jump down the throats of authors who don't include them.
Circe
> yep, clb and a whole HELL of a lot of other people. you can either have some
> respect for the large number of people who find lack of character death warnings
> offensive or not.
Everybody finds something offensive. I find bad writing offensive. I find lack of
spell checking and beta reading offensive.
> what i don't understand about this entire issue is what the authors lose by
> actually stating it's a character death story.
> so what does the author lose by actually coming out and
> stating the fact so that it doesn't ruin someone's day!?
Let me try to explain. You work on a story, possibly writing and rewriting for
months. Let's say it's a story in which a character dies. Perhaps you want that
death to be a surprise. So you work very hard to make sure that the reader is
surprised. Why on earth, after all that work, would you want to say at the
beginning--Character Death? It would pretty much defeat the purpose of all that
work, wouldn't it?
Kai Nikulainen
>2) If I decide to read an unlabelled story, I don't complain about its
content.
You are right, it would be silly to complain about the contents of an
unlabeled story. However, the story which started this debate this time,
was originally labeled
>CATEGORY: M/S/S friendship
>KEYWORDS: angst
In this case the omission of a character death warning wasn't intentional.
But usually when the author decides to use categories and keywords, IMO a
death warning is something which definitely should be included.
Unless of course it's Krycek who gets killed, I wouldn't mind if he died
Kai Nikulainen
trxp...@mindspring.com
>
> i'm plowing into this discussion for the first time because it's really
> struck a cord in me. i read the 'keychain' story and was thinking it
> was a nicely written, well-plotted story. enjoyable. right up to the
> last few @#$#@ sentences.
>
> i DO NOT read character death. i DO NOT read slash. perhaps authors do
> not OWE others an indication of classification, but i look at it as a
> courtesy. a simple courtesy to those for whom you are supposedly
> posting. frankly, i have enough stress and frustration in my life that
> i look at atxc as a wonderful release and escape. i don't appreciate
> being 'tricked' (my word for my perception of the situation, not
> indicative of the authors' intent).
>
> i also have almost no time whatsoever to read and hence use the
> classifications as a means of screening. i do not read anything that
> doesn't have a summary or classification.
>
> authors can do what they want, i agree, but i still believe it a common
> courtesy to label character death and slash, if nothing else, since
> there are so many who feel so strongly about it.
Yes, people feel strongly about it on both sides of the argument. I myself
would prefer *not* to see "Character Death" at the beginning of a story.
It's for the same reason that I don't read spoilers and I don't read the
description of an episode on the back of a new Trek video when it comes in
from Columbia House. **I don't want to know.** I want to let the story
unfold, and if that involves a shattering plot development, then I want to be
shattered. Yes, some authors handle character death (and other
"controversial" developments) better than others, but I fully understand an
author's reasons for keeping such spoilers out of the title and headers.
I've done the same thing myself.
TrexPhile
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Konrad Douglas Frye
writes:
> Amen! Now about the all or nothing stance ... some people like categories
>but not plot development warnings. So that's what my previous post was
>about: just because a writer chooses to categorize a story as "angst" and
>"M/S/Sk friendship" does not mean they should feel required to follow
>through with a "character death" warning, because the all or nothing choice
>doesn't please everyone any more than anything else does.
While not an ideal solution, the best attempt I've seen at "pleasing
everyone" (if that's even possible) is to place any plot development
warnings at the end of the story. Readers that concern themselves with
this sort of thing will page down to the end of the story for a peek while
the rest will forge ahead like they usually do.
$0.02
-----
Konrad Frye (umfr...@ccu.umanitoba.ca)
Computer Engineering IV
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Or what? You'll release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with the
bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
GravesPA2
everyone" (if that's even possible) is to place any plot development
warnings at the end of the story. Readers that concern themselves with
this sort of thing will page down to the end of the story for a peek while
the rest will forge ahead like they usually do.>>
Exactly the compromise I was going to suggest.
I'm a spoiler kinda chick---I WANT to know everything going in. Almost
invariably I go to the end of the story before I go any further, regardless of
what warnings are at the beginning.
Putting such "warnings" at the end of the story is the best of both
worlds---for those of us who want to be spoiled, it's a quick, easy way to see
what's coming. For those who DON'T want to be spoiled, they don't have to see
the end of the story until they're done, at which time the "warnings" are of no
significance anymore.
Shall we try a compromise? Or is that too stifling?
Paula Graves
"Someone should slap Martha's jaw."
- my mother, upon watching a promo for MARTHA STEWART LIVING
Aqualegia
>Unless of course it's Krycek who gets killed, I wouldn't mind if he died
>without warning in the author's notes section :-)
I would, but then I'm a Krycekaholic <g>. And I don't like stories where any
one of the main characters die. OTOH if were Spender who died I'd put out the
flags <g> so warn me in time for me to but them
Lynda
Whose sense of humour is a little warped
[Krycekaholic]
Focussed on Nick Lea
http://members.aol.com/aqualegia/index.html
Marjorie Peck
Personally, as a fanfic reader, not a writer, I like classifications such as MSR,
X, S, etc and ratings like G, PG, R, etc. I also like M/S, M/K, Sk/S etc. The
reason I like these is because I can find the type of story I'm in the mood for. I
also greatly appreciate the stories that say things like M/S married or some such
at the beginning so I can bail right then. As for character death, rape,whatever,
sometimes I don't even read such declaimers after finding out the type and rating
of the story. Of course, sometimes I do read them, because some of you authors are
just too damn amusing in your fun disclaimers. I also lack tons of time to read
fanfic, so often I won't read stories without classifications unless they are
currently being discussed on the newsgroup or some such. However, I do agree that
such clasifications, while being agreeable to me, are up to the author to decide
whether he/she wants to use.
with love, affection, and deep gratitude to the authors who supply me with fanfic
Marjorie
Maureen O'Brien
from this thread.
1) People were actually surprised that Mulder killed himself in the
story in question. As a reader who ventured into XF fic shortly before
"Memento Mori" and officially declared herself a fan as of watching
"Gethsemane"...as a veteran of that long Summer of Fanfic Death...
I saw it coming at least 40 yards away. From the moment Mulder found
the keychain, anyway. So it was foreshadowed.
2) Some people actually read the end of a fanfic before committing to
read the whole thing? To quote WMM, "My God!" I thought I was supposed
to be writing good hooks at the beginning, not the end! The end is just
supposed to be a good tagline!
<Maureen regains her composure, reminding herself that she did skip to
the end of some Agatha Christies when she couldn't bear not knowing
whodunit for another moment. But she was about halfway through at the
time....>
3. No, I will not post warnings at the end of any story. That's just
a big ball of wrong. (Not that I usually have anything in my stories
which requires warning, but it's the principle of the thing.)
4. Clearly, I should follow the 'advice' on Cici's page and post some
good ol' unwarned character death stories. I don't get nearly the rate
of feedback per reader that Parameceum just got.
5. If we're counting ghost-characters and stories where characters are
already dead as needing character death warnings -- I guess I already
have. Lessee, that'd be...um, at least four stories so far. You guess
which ones. ;)
Maureen, who likes the labels but suggests that they are a privilege to
be granted readers, not a right to be demanded by them
Kai Nikulainen
> Amen! Now about the all or nothing stance ... some people like categories
>but not plot development warnings. So that's what my previous post was
>about: just because a writer chooses to categorize a story as "angst" and
>"M/S/Sk friendship" does not mean they should feel required to follow
>through with a "character death" warning, because the all or nothing choice
>doesn't please everyone any more than anything else does.
I guess you are right, it's just that including those categories and
keywords got me thinking the author wouldn't object a death warning either.
Well, I'll know better in the future.
It may even be useful having this discussion every few months even if it
becomes a bit repetitive after a few times :-) Otherwise new authors
wouldn't even know some people (like me) stop reading authors who kill
characters without warning and others (like you?) will not read a story if
there is a warning. Now they are aware of the issue and can make a decision
either way, which is much better than not thinking about it at all.
Kaitsu
Teddi Litman
"Kai Nikulainen" <Kai.Nik...@sci.fi> wrote:
>It may even be useful having this discussion every few months even if it
>becomes a bit repetitive after a few times :-) Otherwise new authors
>wouldn't even know some people (like me) stop reading authors who kill
>characters without warning and others (like you?) will not read a story if
>there is a warning. Now they are aware of the issue and can make a
decision
>either way, which is much better than not thinking about it at all.
>
>Kaitsu
>
>
Exactly! That's why I participated in this (yes, same old<G>) discussion.
It seemed to me that some people were giving *new* writers the impression
that plot development warnings were expected by the group as a whole ...i.e.
"common courtesy." That just isn't the case at all. This group has *never*
reached a consensus on this issue nor will we *ever* likely reach a
consensus. The real truth is they have a choice; and they shouldn't fear
they are being discourteous for their choices on how and/or whether to label
a story.
Teddi
Rebekah
><<While not an ideal solution, the best attempt I've seen at "pleasing
>everyone" (if that's even possible) is to place any plot development
>warnings at the end of the story. Readers that concern themselves with
>this sort of thing will page down to the end of the story for a peek while
>the rest will forge ahead like they usually do.>>
>
>Exactly the compromise I was going to suggest.
>
>I'm a spoiler kinda chick---I WANT to know everything going in. Almost
>invariably I go to the end of the story before I go any further, regardless of
>what warnings are at the beginning.
>
>Putting such "warnings" at the end of the story is the best of both
>worlds---for those of us who want to be spoiled, it's a quick, easy way to see
>what's coming. For those who DON'T want to be spoiled, they don't have to see
>the end of the story until they're done, at which time the "warnings" are of no
>significance anymore.
>
>Shall we try a compromise? Or is that too stifling?
Actually, there is one other suggestion. One mailing list I'm on uses
a part zero for this. I.e., they put all warnings, spoilers, etc. in
that part so that those who want to read can and those who don't can
skip. None of the actual story is in that part. What do y'all think
of that?
Rebekah
Char Priolo
I personally like the warnings and summaries, it helps on screening all the
kinds of stories I don't like (that's MY preference). Let's face it people
there is SOOOOO much out there there has to be a way we can "weed" through the
types of stories we want to read. Just because I DON'T like slash or "other"
stories DOESNOT mean anything to anyone else BUT me!!! I'm a MSR and a KSR
type myself, these are the stories I WANT to read.
But I do agree with Rebekah about the "0" parts that have all the info I
would like to know.
As for the writers who do not put summiers into their work, that your
preference, but I personally would just move to the next story. I DO put
warnings AND summaries into my stories, because I want to let the reader know
what's behind the story! (Like my last story "Phase 2", the summary was just 5
words "Phase 2 of THE project.")
That's my view on this subject, no one BUT my own!! Thank you for your time!!
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!!
Thanks!!
Char Priolo (Mara...@snip.net or cpr...@tnb.com)
To read my stories go to: http://users.snip.net/~marajsky/home.htm
==================================================
"Mmmm.... Hey, Scully."
"Yes?"
"...I love you."
"Oh, brother." ~Mulder and Scully, TXF: "Triangle"
==================================================
~*To Be A Shipper Is to Know the Truth*~