Article on print erotica
McKab
Mary
Kipler wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Alanna.
>
> << Kneeling on the bed between her legs>>
>
> All I could think was, "How did she get a bed between her legs!?" <g> My
> problem with a lot of published fiction is the sloppiness of the writing.
>
> --Kipler
Tracey
that it seems to be a growing trend to denounce anything sexy. There appears
to be more people leaning towards extremes in attitudes lately, and this is
a fine example.
Tracey
bugs
haven't read any, beyond romance novels ten years ago. Lots of pulsing
hot length and such at that point in romance paperbacks.
But erotica/erotica, I haven't read. I have no interest in reading
stories about characters I know/care nothing about.
When people in writing groups read what is classified as erotica, I'm
giggling all right, not out of embarrassment, but out of the tameness
of it all.
Tonight, a young woman read something that was fairly erotic, but then
I was hearing myself, "Excuse me, but when does she have her orgasm?
That's unclear. And his? And here, he doesn't seem to notice she had
her orgasm. Did you mean for it to be that way?" The room went still
and everyone was giving me a puzzled, slightly frightened look.
I quickly slipped back into my disguise. Smut? Me? I know nothing!
I realize the real world REALLY has no idea what we're up to here. The
question is, do we want them to? If this article is any indication,
they may start chasing us with nets.---bugs
alanna wrote:
>
> Interesting article in today's Salon about new, "racier" (i.e. more explicit
> and daring) erotica appearing in print romance novels and readers' reactions to
> this trend. I was particularly intrigued by some of the negative reactions to
> the sexuality in these novels -- many of the scenes excerpted in the article
> would barely raise eyebrows in ATXC. I'm curious why many X-Files fanfic fans
> are more accepting of such things that the readers portrayed in the article.
>
> The whole article is at
> http://www.salonmag.com/books/feature/1999/10/05/romance/index.html
>
> For those who can't make it over here, below is a passage excerpted in the
> Salon piece as an example of the new, controversial writing:
>
> "Kneeling on the bed between her legs, he rubbed himself round and round her
> tightly puckered flesh, pressing inward, harder and harder with each circle
> until he felt it blossoming open, and then suddenly he was inside her and
> Abigail was crying out in the darkness. He sucked in a deep breath and held
> still. Her flesh nipped and milked him. The soft mounds of her buttocks
> quivered against his groin."
>
> (From the anthology "Captivated", by Robin Schone)
>
> Granted, descriptions of anal sex -- slash excepted -- aren't often seen in
> heterosexual (MSR, S/Sk, etc) erotica on ATXC, but I'd imagine that if the same
> passage found its way into a story posted here, it wouldn't be nearly as
> controversial as it has been in the romance novel community.
>
> Then again, I haven't read any romance novels lately, so I could be wrong (I
> get more than enough erotica on the newsgroup <g>).
>
> Thoughts?
>
> cheers,
> alanna
>
> +++++alanna++++
> new WIP: Titanium
> http://alanna.net/fanfic/funereal.html
alanna
Kipler
trajan
Trajan
Nicola Simpson
sex -- slash excepted -- aren't often seen in : heterosexual (MSR, S/Sk,
etc) erotica on ATXC, but I'd imagine that if the same : passage found its
way into a story posted here, it wouldn't be nearly as : controversial as
it has been in the romance novel community.
Speaking as someone in the romance writing community, I think much of the
"controversy" that comes up (if you'll pardon the pun) with racier novels
stems from different expectations of romance vs. erotica. Many die-hard
romance readers and writers don't consider "erotica" romance, and vice
versa. If a book is just one sex scene after another, to some it's not
considered romance. A romance is about the relationship between the hero
and heroine, and overcoming conflicts to arrive at a commitment. The sex
is part of that, but it's not the only or most important part. I think
you get into trouble when you use "romance" and "erotica"
interchangeably--they are very different genres, in a way, and there are
those in both camps who would protest.
One of the biggest differences between ATXC and published romance or
erotica is exactly that--the latter is *published*. There is a referee or
a filter there, be it in the form of an agent, editor or publisher. If I
pick up a Harlequin Superromance, I'm not expecting to find anal sex. If
I pick up a Black Lace book, I'd be surprised *not* to find anal sex.
Where romance or erotica readers pipe up is when they shell out $8 or
whatever and THE BOOK DOESN'T JIVE WITH WHAT THEY EXPECTED. In fanfic,
there is an expectation of... well, everything. I know I can find slash
here, or sappy Celine Dion-inspired mushfic, or crossovers with Gilligan's
Island. The diversity here is astonishing, but it's also never concealed
or mislabelled (most of the time, anyhow).
I've read stories in fanfic that I would *never* classify as genre
romance, but they're labelled MSR or whathaveyou. For a story to be
successful as a *romance* (not erotica), it has to be defined by the
internal conflict of the hero and heroine, and how they work it out. Not
how many times Mulder can get it up or how much Scully "gushes" (to borrow
from another recent thread) when she comes.
My $0.02. FWIW.
--
Nicola Simpson
E-mail: nicola....@ualberta.ca
Kris
>
> Thoughts?
>
Great topic, Al - I went back to the article you referenced and had a
read-through. I was most taken by the discussion of *why* writers
write and readers read erotica.
The prevailing opinion seemed to be that writers write erotica mostly
because sex sells. Put aside any notion of character development or
artistic merit - if you take two books, equally well-written, and one
contains explicit sex scenes, odds are that the explicit one will sell
more copies than the tame one. I think many authors here would agree
that their NC-17 fic generates a larger response than lower-rated fic.
The knottier question is - why do we read it? One person in the
article suggested that written erotica is to women what visual
pornography is to men. An argument against this idea followed,
pointing out that written erotica is usually contained within the
context of a larger story and focuses on emotions and responses between
two people, while pornography focuses only on the visual aspects of the
act and is often meant to be violent or degrading.
Well, I've written a smut-biscuit or two in my time that contained very
little plot and not even much in the way of emotional description. Is
it pornography? Is it really any better than the stuff in Penthouse
Forum? (Hopefully it contains better and more varied euphemisms for
sexual parts and practices, but that's another thread.)
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that erotica - and even
certain kinds of pornography - have an important place in this age of
increasingly dangerous sex. Fantasize about having unprotected sex
with a one-armed man in a dark alley? You'd be crazy to try it, but
you can read several variations on that theme right here. Married, or
in some other monogamous relationship? An affair with a red-headed
woman would probably do serious damage to your marriage (and possibly
to your health), but you can live that fantasy a thousand times over on
Gossamer. I really think that's *why* we read this stuff.
Any other opinions on this?
Kris Mackenzie
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
celebw...@my-deja.com
> Good topic. I've been wondering about mainstream erotica myself. I
> haven't read any, beyond romance novels ten years ago. Lots of pulsing
> hot length and such at that point in romance paperbacks.
Beatrice Small has been writing erotica since the 70s. She has included
b/d, anal sex, rape, same sex and multiple partners in many of her
books.
She is marketed as a romance writer.
>
>
>
> I realize the real world REALLY has no idea what we're up to here. The
> question is, do we want them to? If this article is any indication,
> they may start chasing us with nets.---bugs
I disagree with you.
Even on the 'net, the XF creative group is not the only fan fiction
group that explores all types of sexuality. The Star Trek groups have
been doing it for years. alt.sex.stories.* feature things that would
make stuff posted here seem fit for your great grandmother.
In the "real world" gay/lesbian erotica has been around for years.
Heterosexual erotica has been around in romance books (see Small,
mentioned above), just not publicized.
Just as publicity woke the world up to the Internet and Usenet,
publicity is waking the world up to erotic romances.
We all know the Internet has been around for many many many years, as
has Usenet. I think many felt like Columbus when they first discovered
it. Same with erotica.
The media is once again claiming discovery for something that has been
around in the "real world" for quite some time. The masses will follow
and feel as if they too are in on the ground floor.
Sorry Charlie! ;)
To be fair, the article in question does concede that erotica in romance
has been around previous to this latest book. I think because
_Captivated_ has been publicized as daring and erotic, attention is
being paid! Similar to that Tom Cruise movie that turned out to be so
lame.
Besides, hasn't anyone read any De Sade?
Branwell
in the way of print erotica and is it pornography?
I think an awful lot of people have no idea what's available
in the world of text, which now includes electronically stored
text. I remember having a big laugh over 15 years ago when I had
to go show ID at the public library to check out an illustrated
book intended for midwives. It wasn't left on the shelves for just
anybody to pick up.
Within the same month I had checked out a fictionalized 'life' of
Byron which left little in the way of his sexual activities to the
imagination. It was there with all the other fiction and all I needed
was my library card. I could have sat and read it in the library
without that. It was all those sexy pictures in the birthing manual
that earned it special treatment.
Sometimes I'm a little surprised that men put up with the scorn and
sneers and attempts to ban their visual erotica ( helpfully labeled
pornography) while women have all those neatly categorized
paperbacks openly displayed on shelves in respectable bookstores.
Yeah, I know. When they find out it'll be auto de fe all over again.
Branwell
bugs
> Sometimes I'm a little surprised that men put up with the scorn and
> sneers and attempts to ban their visual erotica ( helpfully labeled
> pornography) while women have all those neatly categorized
> paperbacks openly displayed on shelves in respectable bookstores.
> Yeah, I know. When they find out it'll be auto de fe all over again.
I know! I used to work in a library and had read romances, the ones
with the red covers, the hotties, so I knew exactly what was in them.
Now, here, the stuff wouldn't raise a brow, but still I would describe
it as graphic sex. So the author used the cheezy 'pulsing hot rod<g>'
for 'cock' but, hey, it's the same diff.
And the sweetest, church going-est looking, baking cookies for the
grandkids, women would check out stacks and stacks of them without
batting an eye. Uh, how could you read 35 books in 2 weeks unless you
were doing some serious smut-skimming? ---bugs
bugs
>
> > Good topic. I've been wondering about mainstream erotica myself. I
> > haven't read any, beyond romance novels ten years ago. Lots of pulsing
> > hot length and such at that point in romance paperbacks.
>
> Beatrice Small has been writing erotica since the 70s. She has included
> b/d, anal sex, rape, same sex and multiple partners in many of her
> books.
>
> She is marketed as a romance writer.
So did Catherine Cookson, who I believe was around forever. A friend
recced her books, I got as far as page 20 and I think the girl was
raped already. I went, "God! I won't read H/C angst-o-ramas in fanfic,
why the hell would I read this?"
I'll take your word for it that Beatrice Small(her name's familiar) is
a mainstream author whose books can be found in the paperback book
section of your local supermarket. I'm not sure if that's the type of
'romance novel' the Salon article is refering to, but that's what I
was refering to when I use the term.
>
> >
> > I realize the real world REALLY has no idea what we're up to here. The
> > question is, do we want them to? If this article is any indication,
> > they may start chasing us with nets.---bugs
>
> I disagree with you.
>
> Even on the 'net, the XF creative group is not the only fan fiction
> group that explores all types of sexuality. The Star Trek groups have
> been doing it for years. alt.sex.stories.* feature things that would
> make stuff posted here seem fit for your great grandmother.
>
I've been trying to explain fanfic to a variety of friends since I
started doing this. Not a one had ever heard about it. That's what I
mean by the real world. Obviously thousands of people around the world
read a variety of fanfics. But for some odd reason, I'm just not
running into any of them on the street.
> In the "real world" gay/lesbian erotica has been around for years.
I would hardly refer to this as mainstream, again. When I think of a
'romance novel', I am thinking of something my friend the admin.
assist. would read on her lunch break. The day I go to pick her up for
lunch and she's flipping through a piece of lesbian erotica is the day
I know the world has finally reached the openness and understanding
that we keep being promised we're capable of achieving.
>
> Heterosexual erotica has been around in romance books (see Small,
> mentioned above), just not publicized.
>
I was just talking with another smut writer who said she has
researched het. erotica magazines and found one, very trashy. The only
outlet is the novel. I was shocked at first. Then I thought, 'well,
that explains fanfic's high rate of erotic stories.'
Women want to write and read short erotic stories. This is where we
can do it.
> Just as publicity woke the world up to the Internet and Usenet,
> publicity is waking the world up to erotic romances.
>
> We all know the Internet has been around for many many many years, as
> has Usenet. I think many felt like Columbus when they first discovered
> it. Same with erotica.
>
> The media is once again claiming discovery for something that has been
> around in the "real world" for quite some time. The masses will follow
> and feel as if they too are in on the ground floor.
>
> Sorry Charlie! ;)
>
> To be fair, the article in question does concede that erotica in romance
> has been around previous to this latest book. I think because
> _Captivated_ has been publicized as daring and erotic, attention is
> being paid! Similar to that Tom Cruise movie that turned out to be so
> lame.
>
> Besides, hasn't anyone read any De Sade?
> >
I think that's the point. Just because something existed, didn't mean
your Aunt Mildred was reading it. I can imagine the reaction. Readers
of paperback/genre romances have certain expectations. I was reading
them when they first started to become graphic and I remember being
shocked. You don't know. You buy a book in good faith with certain
expectations. If the book pushes your barriers, now remember, anal sex
is still illegal in some states I believe, what would your reaction
be?
------bugs
>
Kelly
alanna wrote:
<snip>
> Gee, in this post I've been describing Jane Eyre (though I admit I've messed
> with a few of the details). Back in college we'd have long discussions in my
> Victorian Novelists seminar regarding whether Jane Eyre was truly a feminist
> novel. The consensus was yes, for the era in which it was written. The same
> novel written today probably would be slammed as being an archetypal romance
> novel. Funny, I first read it in high school and hated Jane for always running
> away from all her problems. I re-read it in college and didn't have the same
> reaction, as I was better able to see her reasons for doing what she did -- I
> was more open to the feminist angle.
>
> How do y'all see the story -- and would you characterize it as a romance novel
> fitting the modern formulae, albeit with much better writing? Is Jane a strong
> or weak woman?
>
> cheers,
> alanna (now only slightly feverish and doing good to remember college <g>)
>
i think it was a feminist novel, especially for it's day. jane wasn't afraid to
speak her mind, and she does trun down the proposal from the missionary, whcih
society would have expected her to accept.
have you ever read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys? its a novel about Bertha Cosway,
the first mrs. rochester. it's feminist and it presents the novel jane eyre in a
*very* different light.
there's also a fic that has the xf characters replacing the characters in jane eyre
entitled The Light in the Tower at Mulder Manor. i don't remember the author. I
think it does a wonderful job of capturing the style of the novel, not to mention
being extremely funny IMO.
Kelly
--
You've been a bad boy. Go to my room.
XF and HL fanfic at
http://www.geocities.com:80/Area51/Nebula/5362/kelly.html
Hattie54
>is still illegal in some states I believe, what would your reaction
>be?
>
>------bugs
Yup and some of the laws are ridiculously outdated . Alot of the laws were
drawn up on the Victorian times LOL !
Harriet
Kim
> I was shocked at first. Then I thought, 'well,
>that explains fanfic's high rate of erotic stories.'
>Women want to write and read short erotic stories. This is where we
>can do it.
Do you know the Herotica series? Short erotic stories focusing on women. I just
got Herotica 6, the theme of which was eroticism in committed relationships.
Carol Queen's "Being Met" is quite good. Herotica 7 is accepting submissions
now. Its theme is erotica in racially/culturally diverse relationships.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.simplenet.com <------ Note New URL
"Did I look adorable?" Mitch Pileggi, Season 4 Gag Reels :-)
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
Kim
>Speaking as someone in the romance writing community, I think much of the
>"controversy" that comes up (if you'll pardon the pun) with racier novels
>stems from different expectations of romance vs. erotica. Many die-hard
>romance readers and writers don't consider "erotica" romance, and vice
>versa. If a book is just one sex scene after another, to some it's not
>considered romance. A romance is about the relationship between the hero
>and heroine, and overcoming conflicts to arrive at a commitment. The sex
>is part of that, but it's not the only or most important part. I think
>you get into trouble when you use "romance" and "erotica"
>interchangeably--they are very different genres, in a way, and there are
>those in both camps who would protest.
Let's talk about the fanfic world for a moment. Here we have the unique luxury
of building upon what has been created for us in the TV series. Chris Carter
deftly creates characters, situations, attractions and obstacles. We get to go
the extra step - to create the sex that isn't shown on the telly. We also get
to skip some of the first step because it's going over ground that the reader
already knows. "Mulder cracked jokes at Scully and often flirted with her" -
well, we know that, move on. It's a luxury that fanfic writers get to skip the
prelimaries that an original character romance writer would have to build,
starting from zero.
>
>One of the biggest differences between ATXC and published romance or
>erotica is exactly that--the latter is
Pardon me, but I see better work here than I do in a paperback romance, in
terms of sheer writing power. There are writers among us who could very well
publish a story, stripping out Mulder, Scully, Skinner, Krycek and replacing
them with Matson, Stone, Eliot, Rostov, and it would rock. Not quite in the
same way as it does building on our X-Files characters, but it could still
stand as good work.
If they were to submit something to Harlequin, however, they'd better know what
Harlequin sells and doesn't sell. You're right about that.
>
>I've read stories in fanfic that I would *never* classify as genre
>romance, but they're labelled MSR or whathaveyou. For a story to be
>successful as a *romance* (not erotica), it has to be defined by the
>internal conflict of the hero and heroine, and how they work it out. Not
>how many times Mulder can get it up or how much Scully "gushes" (to borrow
>from another recent thread) when she comes.
MSR is a very very broad term. It encompasses everything from a simple
declaration of love, to unabashed, no holds barred PWP. Perhaps there should be
MSE for M/S erotica to be more accurate, but, what the heck - it's not like a
story is costing you something.
celebw...@my-deja.com
>
> I'll take your word for it that Beatrice Small(her name's familiar) is
> a mainstream author whose books can be found in the paperback book
Absolutely. Her Skye O'Malley series was legendary at the HS I went
to. You could find many girls sitting around study hall reading this.
If the teachers only knew what was going on in there!! ;)
> section of your local supermarket. I'm not sure if that's the type of
> 'romance novel' the Salon article is refering to, but that's what I
> was refering to when I use the term.
Beatrice Small was mentioned in the article (one of her short stories is
in the book that Salon was writing about.) They do mention that she has
been writing this stuff for many years, and has been marketed as main
stream romance for almost that long.
> >
> >
> I've been trying to explain fanfic to a variety of friends since I
> started doing this. Not a one had ever heard about it. That's what I
Fanfic has been around and talked about by mainstream media since the
early 70s, Star Trek brought it into the forefront. I remember a novel
containing only fan fiction was published in the mid 70s, I believe.
To this day, I remember my reaction to _Mind Sifter_ . WOW!
> mean by the real world. Obviously thousands of people around the world
Yes, but your real world is not necessarily the real world of others!
Fan fiction is not a novelty. If you go back and research articles in
the late 70s, when Star Trek the movie came out, you can see many
references to it. Shatner and Nimoy used to be constantly questioned
about Kirk/Spock fiction. I think even Merv or Mike Douglas brought it
up! (As a joke, granted. Homosexuality was not discussed in a serious
way back then! :P)
> read a variety of fanfics. But for some odd reason, I'm just not
> running into any of them on the street.
Maybe it is where you live?
>
>
> I would hardly refer to this as mainstream, again. When I think of a
Depends on where you live, again! ;) People in certain areas of the
country wouldn't bat an eye when confronted with slash!
> 'romance novel', I am thinking of something my friend the admin.
> assist. would read on her lunch break. The day I go to pick her up for
Fair enough.
> >
> I was just talking with another smut writer who said she has
> researched het. erotica magazines and found one, very trashy. The only
> outlet is the novel. I was shocked at first. Then I thought, 'well,
Novels were what the article was talking about, I believe?
>
> Women want to write and read short erotic stories. This is where we
> can do it.
Or in the old fashion print fanzines. They are still around. Dying
breed, due to the net, but still there.
>
>
> I think that's the point. Just because something existed, didn't mean
> your Aunt Mildred was reading it. I can imagine the reaction. Readers
Maybe not yours!
I do think you have a point regarding the extreme stuff, such as De
Sade. Although my mother read it when she found it amongst some of my
stuff. We had an interesting discussion about it.
> of paperback/genre romances have certain expectations. I was reading
> them when they first started to become graphic and I remember being
The catagory stuff certainly do have expectations. Mills&Boon,
Silhouette, etc all have certain standards, and when you pick one up you
know what you will be getting. However, the stand alone ones have been
all over the map for quite some time.
> shocked. You don't know. You buy a book in good faith with certain
> expectations. If the book pushes your barriers, now remember, anal sex
> is still illegal in some states I believe, what would your reaction
> be?
>
As I said, read the 70s Skye O'Malley by Small. Skye was raped by her
husband and her husband's sister (who were having an affair, Skye caught
them, so they raped her). She then served a stint in the far east as a
haram girl, then was forced into degrading sex by the Queen of England
who wanted to keep her favorite man happy. Anal sex has been a part of
romance novels for sometime. Not the catagory ones, I grant you, but
the ones with Fabio type men on the cover has been pushing (forgive me!)
the envelope for decades!
For some folks, pushing the barrier is inter-racial romance (I have yet
to see many books explore this type of love. Amazing.), others it is
b/d. I do concede though that depending on where you live, standards
are different. Maybe if you live in the Northeast, closer to the big
cities or the West (except for the Pacific Northwest, I think.) you will
find more acceptance and wider knowledge of these types of genres.
I simply don't agree that the 'net is the only avenue of acceptance or
knowledge of this type of stuff. I haven't had trouble finding folks
who read gay/lesbian erotica (slash) or "mainstream" hetero erotica in
real time. However, both of our experiences are anecdotal and don't
represent anyone else's real world but our own!
I am just cautioning against falling in the trap of thinking that the
'net is somehow special and more accepting than the outside world. This
is elitist, and untrue. The 'net does allow people who live in
unaccepting areas of the world to meet others like them and feel better
about themselves. Also exposes us all to various opinions and ways of
life. Like you and me! :)
Cheers!
Molly
news:37FC3E43...@my-deja.com...
> celebw...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > Good topic. I've been wondering about mainstream erotica myself. I
> > > haven't read any, beyond romance novels ten years ago. Lots of pulsing
> > > hot length and such at that point in romance paperbacks.
> >
> > Beatrice Small has been writing erotica since the 70s. She has included
> > b/d, anal sex, rape, same sex and multiple partners in many of her
> > books.
> >
> > She is marketed as a romance writer.
>
> So did Catherine Cookson, who I believe was around forever. A friend
> recced her books, I got as far as page 20 and I think the girl was
> raped already. I went, "God! I won't read H/C angst-o-ramas in fanfic,
> why the hell would I read this?"
I have read most of Catherine Cookson's books and there are at least two
rapes (a very low estimate) in every book among other suffering producing
incidents. They definitely not happy, fluffy romances. Books by Diana
Gabaldon are also sold in the romance section (in my bookstore at least),
which is weird as well. They should be classed as historical fiction/time
travel. I guess they're sold in the romance section because they have
semi-graphic sex scenes (and rape as well), but the books are like 500 pages
each with only a *very* small percentage involving sex.
<snip lots more, sorry. I just wanted to comment on Catherine Cookson>
--Molly :)
AFBrat001
>Uh, how could you read 35 books in 2 weeks unless you
>were doing some serious smut-skimming?
Actually, it is quite possible. I read the same number of books in less time
and I do skim--I skim the smut. I'm not reading these books for the smut,
which I find rather formulaic in most of these books. I'm reading them because
they are no brainers and I need that in grad school. Basic plot of most of
these books: Boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, boy looses girl, boy
gets girl back. I love the way in which this basic plot is played with, forget
the smut.
Jenny
God never lets the Devil steal the show.
--Dana Scully, Miracle Man
This book has actually been read; it can't be a student
--Jose Chung's "Doomsday Defense"
bugs
<snip>
>
> > I've been trying to explain fanfic to a variety of friends since I
> > started doing this. Not a one had ever heard about it. That's what I
>
> Fanfic has been around and talked about by mainstream media since the
> early 70s, Star Trek brought it into the forefront. I remember a novel
> containing only fan fiction was published in the mid 70s, I believe.
> To this day, I remember my reaction to _Mind Sifter_ . WOW!
>
> > mean by the real world. Obviously thousands of people around the world
>
> Yes, but your real world is not necessarily the real world of others!
> Fan fiction is not a novelty. If you go back and research articles in
> the late 70s, when Star Trek the movie came out, you can see many
> references to it. Shatner and Nimoy used to be constantly questioned
> about Kirk/Spock fiction. I think even Merv or Mike Douglas brought it
> up! (As a joke, granted. Homosexuality was not discussed in a serious
> way back then! :P)
>
I'm not saying it is a novelty. I've known about it for a number of
years from being a Trekkie. But I have friends who would describe
themselves as 'big fans' of various shows who had no knowledge it
existed, in its print or on-line forms.
The inference that there was something more going on between
Spock/Kirk isn't a newsflash however, that's been out in the
open(sorry for the pun) for a long time. Even if reference was made to
the fiction, I doubt Merv and Mike were aware of the wide scope.
> > read a variety of fanfics. But for some odd reason, I'm just not
> > running into any of them on the street.
>
> Maybe it is where you live?
>
A major metropolitan city on the west coast, known for it's free
lifestyle and open attitude? Uh...
> >
> >
> > I would hardly refer to this as mainstream, again. When I think of a
>
> Depends on where you live, again! ;) People in certain areas of the
> country wouldn't bat an eye when confronted with slash!
If they knew it was out there. I just had the conversation last night
with a gentleman with high degrees of education from the finest
schools in this country, a published author, a 'man of the world'(he's
hung out with the Rolling Stones<g>), who was amazed about slash. He'd
asked a psychologist friend about the idea that woman want to 'see'
men having sex in the same way men want to see two women having sex
and the man had never heard of it.
This was a very interesting statement to me. I don't believe that
women sexual fantasy lives are completely understood or known to a
vast majority of the individuals who should know.
This man was stunned to the point of babbling. I could tell it wasn't
the Han Solo/Luke Skywalker slash he'd look at that was bothering him.
It was the idea that women were having fantasies about which he'd
previously had absolutely no clue.
>
> > I was just talking with another smut writer who said she has
> > researched het. erotica magazines and found one, very trashy. The only
> > outlet is the novel. I was shocked at first. Then I thought, 'well,
>
> Novels were what the article was talking about, I believe?
I think we've got a case of apples and oranges here. In the big
picture, I don't really give a damn about some Salon article being
shocked at women's sexuality. A connection was made by the original
poster between it, mainstream romance/erotica and the work we do here.
The work we do here is mostly short stories. If any of us were to
attempt to adapt and publish our stories, we would need to find an
outlet in a magazine, journal, or anthology.
>
> >
> > Women want to write and read short erotic stories. This is where we
> > can do it.
>
> Or in the old fashion print fanzines. They are still around. Dying
> breed, due to the net, but still there.
Again, I doubt my friend the pink-collar worker, is going to go into
her local skate/D&D/sci-fi store and dig out a fanzine of Babylon 5
fanfic to get her rocks off. I would want to see some sort of magazine
right up there at the checkstand next to Cosmo. <g>
> >
> >
> > I think that's the point. Just because something existed, didn't mean
> > your Aunt Mildred was reading it. I can imagine the reaction. Readers
>
> Maybe not yours!
Perhaps you've made my point for me. I'm trying to suggest that the
vast majority of middle America, god-fearing, apple-pie eating,
mini-van driving doesn't know about this stuff. If your aunt is
reading lesbian erotica and your mother de Sade, I respectfully
suggest your family wouldn't fall into my model/stereotype.
>
> I do think you have a point regarding the extreme stuff, such as De
> Sade. Although my mother read it when she found it amongst some of my
> stuff. We had an interesting discussion about it.
>
> > of paperback/genre romances have certain expectations. I was reading
> > them when they first started to become graphic and I remember being
>
> The catagory stuff certainly do have expectations. Mills&Boon,
> Silhouette, etc all have certain standards, and when you pick one up you
> know what you will be getting. However, the stand alone ones have been
> all over the map for quite some time.
>
> > shocked. You don't know. You buy a book in good faith with certain
> > expectations. If the book pushes your barriers, now remember, anal sex
> > is still illegal in some states I believe, what would your reaction
> > be?
> >
>
> As I said, read the 70s Skye O'Malley by Small. Skye was raped by her
> husband and her husband's sister (who were having an affair, Skye caught
> them, so they raped her). She then served a stint in the far east as a
> haram girl, then was forced into degrading sex by the Queen of England
> who wanted to keep her favorite man happy. Anal sex has been a part of
> romance novels for sometime. Not the catagory ones, I grant you, but
> the ones with Fabio type men on the cover has been pushing (forgive me!)
> the envelope for decades!
>
*shudder* I was too big of a weanie to ever move up to the Fabio ones.
Something just told me they would send me over the edge. This is
definitely a discussion that needs definition of terms. I haven't read
the larger paperbacks a la Fabio. I've read a few of those hardback
'serious' romance novels. When I think of the romance novel, I think
of the paperback genre series, read faithfully by millions of American
women in the heartland. I realize that leads to apple and oranges
comparisons again, because the range of activities will widen in the
larger, more 'serious' works.
> For some folks, pushing the barrier is inter-racial romance (I have yet
> to see many books explore this type of love. Amazing.), others it is
> b/d. I do concede though that depending on where you live, standards
> are different. Maybe if you live in the Northeast, closer to the big
> cities or the West (except for the Pacific Northwest, I think.) you will
> find more acceptance and wider knowledge of these types of genres.
I am constantly amazed when I travel just a few miles away from my
large cosmopolitan city at the attitude changes. I would say the vast
majority of this country is not comfortable yet with a great deal of
things that we take for granted here on this ng.
That's my point. Women living in those situations can come here, read
this fic, and enjoy it in the privacy of their homes with no fears of
their neighbors running across some publication in their bookshelf. As
a result, I would imagine, more women living in less open
circumstances, have the opportunity to expand their fantasy life
through fanfic. (Better living through smut!)
>
> I simply don't agree that the 'net is the only avenue of acceptance or
> knowledge of this type of stuff. I haven't had trouble finding folks
> who read gay/lesbian erotica (slash) or "mainstream" hetero erotica in
> real time. However, both of our experiences are anecdotal and don't
> represent anyone else's real world but our own!
>
> I am just cautioning against falling in the trap of thinking that the
> 'net is somehow special and more accepting than the outside world. This
> is elitist, and untrue. The 'net does allow people who live in
> unaccepting areas of the world to meet others like them and feel better
> about themselves. Also exposes us all to various opinions and ways of
> life. Like you and me! :)
>
I certainly hope that I did not come across as some net snob. If
anything, I think we exist in a ghetto here, to be blunt. We receive
no monetary compensation for our days of hard work. You have to love
it to do it. When people do find out about fanfic, we are
ridiculed.(Anyone seeing any glowing articles about how wonderful it
is that thousands of people have found a creative outlet? The kindest
I've seen is along the, Wow, can you believe people do this? line.)
We're doing something based on a TV show, strike one. Strike two,
limited appeal. I don't care how good the writer is, I don't believe
someone 'off the street' could come read a fanfic and enjoy it to the
degree we would. I wouldn't go running over to a ER fanfic site
because I'd heard the best fanfic ever was posted there. I don't watch
ER. I have no interest in reading a story with those characters.
But I do think the net gives us something the passive publishing world
cannot, interaction. Obviously, in illustration, we are coming from
two different perspectives from the many perspectives on this
ng.---bugs
celebw...@my-deja.com
> >
> I'm not saying it is a novelty. I've known about it for a number of
> years from being a Trekkie. But I have friends who would describe
> themselves as 'big fans' of various shows who had no knowledge it
> existed, in its print or on-line forms.
I understand what you are saying. I am just trying to say that your
friends are not necessarily indicative of the world at large. I admit
the same is true regarding the company I keep. I am also trying to say
that generalizing the "real world" with anecdotal references isn't an
accurate picture of what is out there.
> open(sorry for the pun) for a long time. Even if reference was made to
> the fiction, I doubt Merv and Mike were aware of the wide scope.
No, but they were aware of it, and that is definitely mainstream media.
Mainstream media has been aware of fanfic and has made reference to it
for many many years now. Prior to this newsgroup.
>
> >
> A major metropolitan city on the west coast, known for it's free
> lifestyle and open attitude? Uh...
> > >
Touche! Well maybe it is the neighborhoods you have been hanging out
in? ;)
> >
>
> If they knew it was out there. I just had the conversation last night
> with a gentleman with high degrees of education from the finest
> schools in this country, a published author, a 'man of the world'(he's
Education level or caliber of school is not the issue. There are some
people out there who have had more exposure to diverse ways of
life! There are others who haven't. Hanging out with the Rolling
Stones is not what I consider exposure to diversity! <g>
My anecdotal reference, I know well-educated racists! :P
>
>
> I think we've got a case of apples and oranges here. In the big
> picture, I don't really give a damn about some Salon article being
> shocked at women's sexuality. A connection was made by the original
> poster between it, mainstream romance/erotica and the work we do here.
Correct. The impression I got, which is probably contrary to what was
meant, was that the 'net was more hip to erotica, especially
this newsgroup. Which I don't agree with.
>
> Again, I doubt my friend the pink-collar worker, is going to go into
> her local skate/D&D/sci-fi store and dig out a fanzine of Babylon 5
> fanfic to get her rocks off. I would want to see some sort of magazine
> right up there at the checkstand next to Cosmo. <g>
I think we are hanging out with different folks! <g>
> > >
> >
> >
> > Maybe not yours!
>
> Perhaps you've made my point for me. I'm trying to suggest that the
I think we might be making each other's point! I feel you are making
mine!
> vast majority of middle America, god-fearing, apple-pie eating,
> mini-van driving doesn't know about this stuff. If your aunt is
> reading lesbian erotica and your mother de Sade, I respectfully
> suggest your family wouldn't fall into my model/stereotype.
Bingo!! YOUR model/sterotype, which is probably not indicative of the
true face of the world, if there is such a thing. We all define the
real world by the stimulus we have been exposed to. For you erotica in
romance might have been something that shocked. For your friends
erotica might be something that is new and fearful.
(As for the middle class, apple pie moniker, again do any of us know
what really goes on behind the closed doors of our neighbors?)
To me, it is old news. I cut my teeth on my Aunt's Essie Summers (who,
I still love by the way, and this author is the definition of chaste,
she was one of the most literate romance authors I have ever read) and
Emily Loring books. I had no problem jumping into the erotica yet
retaining my love for the chaste. I might be more multifaceted than
most, I don't think so, but I only have my own perceptions of the world
to guide me!
> >
> >
> *shudder* I was too big of a weanie to ever move up to the Fabio ones.
> Something just told me they would send me over the edge. This is
> definitely a discussion that needs definition of terms. I haven't read
Agreed. I define romance novels as more than the Category ones (Mills
& Boon, Silhouette) or the Danielle Steele, Nora Roberts, Janet Daley
genre. The "bodice rippers" which include Small and others who have
been writing about anal sex, b/d, etc. for decades fall into my
definition of mass market romance. They are displayed at Waldens in the
romance section for all to see and buy.
> the larger paperbacks a la Fabio. I've read a few of those hardback
> 'serious' romance novels. When I think of the romance novel, I think
> of the paperback genre series, read faithfully by millions of American
> women in the heartland. I realize that leads to apple and oranges
Which those "bodice rippers" are very much a part of. I wish I could
remember more author names. The pirate romances also feature b/d ,
s&m and other types of sexuality. These are all in your neighborhood
Waldens' and have been for years, regardless where you live. They sell
quite well.
> comparisons again, because the range of activities will widen in the
> larger, more 'serious' works.
I am not talking about "serious" works at all. Small is certainly not
what I would consider serious! (My own prejudice at play! ;) )
>
>
> I am constantly amazed when I travel just a few miles away from my
> large cosmopolitan city at the attitude changes. I would say the vast
> majority of this country is not comfortable yet with a great deal of
> things that we take for granted here on this ng.
See, that to me is a generalization. This ng doesn't have a monopoly on
liberal attitudes. I remember many a fight regarding slash and NC-17
stories right here in this group.
Remember that whole Clinton debacle? How the media was expecting the
country to be outraged, the majority (if polls and the results of the
last election can be believed) yawned and said move on!
We need Masters and Johnson to come out with another study regarding
current attitudes towards sex and the various positions available, then
we would be able to better understand the current mindset of the
majority! <g>
> That's my point. Women living in those situations can come here, read
> this fic, and enjoy it in the privacy of their homes with no fears of
> their neighbors running across some publication in their bookshelf. As
> a result, I would imagine, more women living in less open
Sure, but they can also find it at their local bookstore. Granted, they
would have to tear off the covers of some of the books, but they can
find it, and have been able to find it for years.
I do agree with you that the online access (especially alt.sex.stories)
has afforded many the opportunity to explore some dark areas of
fantasy. I am talking about snuff fiction and gross (imho) stuff like
that. Romantic smut though, no. I don't see anything here that I
haven't read in a paperback, easily available romance book at some
point. Including male/male, female/male and multiple partners.
>
> >
> I certainly hope that I did not come across as some net snob. If
To be honest, I got that impression regarding attitudes toward romantic
erotica. I read your comments to mean that people here on the 'net are
more accepting of this stuff than those with no on-line access. I
disagree. I can see why it seems that way, as we are a bunch of
like-minded readers enjoying the erotica. However you can find that
off-line as well. It has to do with the people you hang around with!
> anything, I think we exist in a ghetto here, to be blunt. We receive
> no monetary compensation for our days of hard work. You have to love
This really doesn't have any relevence, but I understand your point!
> it to do it. When people do find out about fanfic, we are
> ridiculed.(Anyone seeing any glowing articles about how wonderful it
> is that thousands of people have found a creative outlet? The kindest
Oh no. This will start the Ordover debate all over again!! AIEEEE. ;)
>
> limited appeal. I don't care how good the writer is, I don't believe
> someone 'off the street' could come read a fanfic and enjoy it to the
> degree we would. I wouldn't go running over to a ER fanfic site
> because I'd heard the best fanfic ever was posted there. I don't watch
> ER. I have no interest in reading a story with those characters.
Exactly. However if someone off the street is a big ER fan, big XF fan,
big trekker then they sure would enjoy it as much. Which is why those
star trek books (and XF books) sell so well. Those are nothing more
than big brother sanctioned fan fiction. (BACK OFF ORDOVER, I am
packing mace!)
> But I do think the net gives us something the passive publishing world
> cannot, interaction. Obviously, in illustration, we are coming from
> two different perspectives from the many perspectives on this
> ng.---bugs
Yes!! We are approaching this subject from our own exposures to the
outside world. Neither which reflects the other's reality. Reality is
an interesting concept. It means totally different things to each one
of us!
d.LiNeAtE
> The knottier question is - why do we read it? One person in the
> article suggested that written erotica is to women what visual
> pornography is to men. An argument against this idea followed,
> pointing out that written erotica is usually contained within the
> context of a larger story and focuses on emotions and responses
> between two people, while pornography focuses only on the visual
> aspects of the act and is often meant to be violent or degrading.
Is that another stereotype you think ?
Men -> pornography - women -> erotica ? This comparison is beyond me. It
really is. I'd like to hear what the guys around here have to say about
that.
I'm a woman. I've seen tapes, I've read erotica. Tapes get tiresome.
Ultimately erotica wins :) but what that has to do with being a woman, I
don't know ...
The visual aspect doesn't seem to captivate me as much as a written
story. The written word can provoke your imagination. It's more personal
and I would say that outranks the mere visual aspect. An erotic story
can be so much more powerful and especially if it's based on well known
characters :)
The X-rated stuff in here might not be "mainstream" (whatever that is)
but hey, even if I wasn't into the X-Files, I'd be reading this place
anyway. Somehow this group is more comfortable with erotica, you notice
that in the style of writing :) It's much more direct, daring, up front
and casual at the same time. As if it was the most natural thing in the
world ... and it is ... :)
Plus, what you don't get out there, is that NC-17 content here can get
mixed in with an actual case file or a really well formed story line.
Comparison ? Over here it's like a real movie with real porn/erotica in
it (imagine that in the real world). Out there it's like a porn movie
with an attempt at some kind of plot (maybe that's a bit harsh) ;)
The first story I read was NC-17, at the time I had no idea. I just read
it and :) I thought I was being sucked into some kind of parallel
universe :)
Over in alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo not long ago, there was a discussion
about the lack of good sex scenes in cyberpunk books and about why the
NG authors weren't comfortable writing sex scenes, writing good sex
scenes. About how that made an author vulnerable and how violence was
somehow easier to write because it was less personal. For a group that
is supposed to be dealing with near future I thought that was kind of
"behind", but it also depends on what is accepted by an entire group ...
which makes me wonder who that first author was who posted NC-17 ...
Now I really want to know :) I'm afraid that was before my time, but
feel free to enlighten me :)
d.
John J. Ordover
>
>Oh no. This will start the Ordover debate all over again!! AIEEEE. ;)
>
>>
>> limited appeal. I don't care how good the writer is, I don't believe
>> someone 'off the street' could come read a fanfic and enjoy it to the
>> degree we would. I wouldn't go running over to a ER fanfic site
>> because I'd heard the best fanfic ever was posted there. I don't watch
>> ER. I have no interest in reading a story with those characters.
>
>
>Exactly. However if someone off the street is a big ER fan, big XF fan,
>big trekker then they sure would enjoy it as much. Which is why those
>star trek books (and XF books) sell so well. Those are nothing more
>than big brother sanctioned fan fiction. (BACK OFF ORDOVER, I am
>packing mace!)
Speak my name, and I shall appear...:)
I think the problem (as per the original post) is packaging erotica as
romance - they aren't the same things at all. Pride and Prejudice is
not The Story of O. Put a "Pride" package on "O" and you'll annoy a
lot of readers, readers who may well like both oranges and
grapefruits, for instance, but would be very annoyed to -peel- an
orange and find a grapefruit, or vice-versa. If you get me.
As for fan-fiction getting "respect" of any kind, well, look at it
this way: If you write a graduate thesis and submit it to the
academic board, then defend it in oral argument and after that
proceedure are given an A+++ and a degree with honors, you'll get
respect. If you just post a thesis on a bbs or website you wouldn't
get that respect.
Same in writing. If you are willing to submit your work to TPTB for
judgement, and it passes that judgement, then you'll get respect
(please note I'm not commenting on whether that's "right" or "fair" or
"good" but just pointing out the truth). Also, you don't really earn
respect for being "creative" when you write in someone else's
universe. Even the pro media-tie-in novelists (of all stripes, ST,
SW, XF, etc.) don't get respect from writers who create their own
universes.
Just food for thought.:)
Pyrephox
>>Uh, how could you read 35 books in 2 weeks unless you
>>were doing some serious smut-skimming?
Hehehe, if you're talking about romances, heck, one of those little things
takes about an hour to get through. 35 in two weeks is not unreasonable, even
with no skimming. Although, I must admit that it often seems like there's the
*exact same sex scene* in each book, regardless of the author.
You know, it's never been the *smut* that bothers me. It's always been the fact
that in 70 to 80% of the ones I read, there would be no way in hell any
self-respecting female would fall for a guy who does the things that the
"heros" do. The men seem to be endless, perfect Alpha male, always right
(except for the misconception they usually have about Our Suffering Heroine's
morals/motivations/sexual experience); and the women spend most of the book
making shmoopy-eyes, eating ice cream and bemoaning their fate, or being so
innocent and trusting you want to hit them with a frying pan.
But, that's just my opinion. :P
Pyrephox
--
www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2623/BMB.html
Blue Moon Madness
d.LiNeAtE
got a hint of the true meaning of suppression and lack of respect again.
We don't get respect from you, but that's all that can be said about it.
We submit our work to each other and we have mutual respect. We're not
asking for more. I'm not. I have no idea why the outside world wouldn't
have respect for fanfic. I haven't heard them comment on fanfic and
disrespect it yet. Obviously you must have or perhaps you are just so
elitist to think you can just make these kinds of assumptions.
You've got respect and disdain all confused, buddy but you're not
heating up my engine again, that's for sure.
So you pulled out your finger, stuck it up in the air and somehow sensed
by the wind in what direction we should all go to suddenly gain what you
define is respect.
If you'll excuse me, I have a lot of reading to get through for the
Spooky Awards. I really really don't want to waste my time disrespecting
anyone here by spending valuable time on you.
d.
Kim
Thank you for once again returning to this newsgroup to advise how fanfic
writers are not worthy of respect. How long has it been since you so generously
gave of your time and scorn? About six months? What kept you so long?
We have been thoroughly advised by you, and have not forgotten, that we're not
real writers, that we're wasting our time, that this writing will not lead to
'real' writing, and that what we do here is rubbish.
Speaking for myself, I'm proud of my writing. It has brought me joy and others
joy too. That is not a waste of my time. I'll die someday and I know some of
the time I spent here in writing this will be looked back on fondly, not as a
waste of my life.
I do believe that you should be busy enough with your career - a career that
consists of steering a line of books that write in a universe, ahem, someone
else created - that you have no further time to come and express your
disrespect X-Files fanfic writers.
When I asked you how someone might actually turn an interest in fanfic into a
publication of a tie-in novel, the answer was silence. And let's not pretend
you ever handed out any valued writing advice, either. . In fact, you've never
given any advice on the craft at all, have you? I can get good writing advice
from Natalie Goldberg, Julia Cameron and Orson Scott Card and I'm happy to
enrich them. Evidently, you've no interest in mentoring anyone, at least not
any of us ruffians.
As you have pointed out, writers who create their own universes look down on
the tie- ins, so perhaps you yourself get looked down upon. Have some empathy
and realize nobody likes your implied put downs, any more than you like being
sneered at by your publishing peers.
Please, for the love of decency, just go, now, without starting your usual long
and pointless threads that take our writing and our hearts and use them as your
toilet paper.
BethLynn
Wait... do they write like torch? Or, Kipler? Or, Laura Cap?
Or, Benchley? Or, McCaffrey? Or, Preston and Child?
BethLynn
"To the world you may be no one, but to someone you may be the world."
Katherine F.
Ordover) sang out with cries of joy:
<snippetty snippetty>
>As for fan-fiction getting "respect" of any kind, well, look at it
>this way: If you write a graduate thesis and submit it to the
>academic board, then defend it in oral argument and after that
>proceedure are given an A+++ and a degree with honors, you'll get
>respect. If you just post a thesis on a bbs or website you wouldn't
>get that respect.
>
>Same in writing. If you are willing to submit your work to TPTB for
>judgement, and it passes that judgement, then you'll get respect
No. Then you'll get published. Not the same thing.
What makes fanfic so wonderful (and it *is* wonderful) is
the huge variety of interpretations of canon that are not just
thinkable, and not just possible, but commonplace. What makes
fanfic wonderful is the way it takes a concept and stretches it,
and twists it, and holds it up to a fairground mirror, and cuts
it up, and sticks it back together again. You really *can't* do
this in pro tie-in work, because you can't stray too far from the
original creators' concept of what the show is. It wouldn't be
possible to write a pro XF novel in which Mulder and Scully have
sex, let alone Mulder and Krycek.
(The closest pro analogy to what fanfic does would
probably be DC Comics' "Elseworlds" stories, in which weird
things are done to the main characters: however, although they do
do things like send Clark Kent to Earth during the 13th century
rather than the twentieth, they generally stay pretty close to
canonical interpretations of character, unlike in fanfic, where
it's possible to find MultiplePersonalities!Mulder,
StoneButch!Scully and GoodGuy!Krycek...)
--
Katherine F.
http://netdump.com/users/purity_brown/purity.htm
bugs
>
> >Bugs wrote:
>
> >>Uh, how could you read 35 books in 2 weeks unless you
> >>were doing some serious smut-skimming?
>
> Hehehe, if you're talking about romances, heck, one of those little things
> takes about an hour to get through. 35 in two weeks is not unreasonable, even
> with no skimming.
I know, but that's you and me. I have a friend who's been reading the
same paperback mystery for 2 years now. If he was only reading it when
I see him reading, he SHOULD still be finished. I can't watch him
read! I have to turn away! It takes him 30 minutes to turn the page.
But he assures me that he has absorbed all the material by the time
he's done with a book. Me, I'm busy skimming to/over smut.
Although, I must admit that it often seems like there's the
> *exact same sex scene* in each book, regardless of the author.
>
> You know, it's never been the *smut* that bothers me. It's always been the fact
> that in 70 to 80% of the ones I read, there would be no way in hell any
> self-respecting female would fall for a guy who does the things that the
> "heros" do. The men seem to be endless, perfect Alpha male, always right
> (except for the misconception they usually have about Our Suffering Heroine's
> morals/motivations/sexual experience); and the women spend most of the book
> making shmoopy-eyes, eating ice cream and bemoaning their fate, or being so
> innocent and trusting you want to hit them with a frying pan.
>
> But, that's just my opinion. :P
Your reasons are why I gave up on paperback romances. I'm not some
literary snob believing the material is beneath me. But I do want some
originality and the message was pissing me off. Those older ones are a
hoot, though. I mean, we worry about Mulder slamming Scully to a
wall? Try the Greek tycoon pretty much raping the 19 year old
doe-eyed virgin and she ends up loving it!--- bugs
John J. Ordover
>Mr. Ordover:
>
>Thank you for once again returning to this newsgroup to advise how fanfic
>writers are not worthy of respect. How long has it been since you so generously
>gave of your time and scorn? About six months? What kept you so long?
'cause it's been that long since anyone dropped my name:)
>
>We have been thoroughly advised by you, and have not forgotten, that we're not
>real writers, that we're wasting our time, that this writing will not lead to
>'real' writing, and that what we do here is rubbish.
Again, that's not what I said. I've never said that. What I've said
is that it won't lead to a professional writing career.
>Speaking for myself, I'm proud of my writing. It has brought me joy and others
>joy too. That is not a waste of my time. I'll die someday and I know some of
>the time I spent here in writing this will be looked back on fondly, not as a
>waste of my life.
If you're having fun, have fun. I have no problem with that and never
said I did.
>I do believe that you should be busy enough with your career - a career that
>consists of steering a line of books that write in a universe, ahem, someone
>else created - that you have no further time to come and express your
>disrespect X-Files fanfic writers.
Again, I never did that.
>
>When I asked you how someone might actually turn an interest in fanfic into a
>publication of a tie-in novel, the answer was silence.
I speak on this topic often. The path to a tie-in novel lies in
writing your own stuff, getting it published, and then showing that
book to a tie-in editor and requesting work. That's the easiest route
and the route 99% of pro media tie-in novelists have taken. Or you
can check out guidlines for the various media novel lines (the Star
Trek guidelines are posted at www.startrekbooks.com under "editor's
logs" and "guidelines." I don't know how to get guidelines for the
other media novels, or even if they publish books by unknown authors).
And let's not pretend
>you ever handed out any valued writing advice, either. . In fact, you've never
>given any advice on the craft at all, have you? I can get good writing advice
>from Natalie Goldberg, Julia Cameron and Orson Scott Card and I'm happy to
>enrich them. Evidently, you've no interest in mentoring anyone, at least not
>any of us ruffians.
I mentor a whole lot of peolpe, actually, and teach writing on a
regular basis. Check out the the Star Trek Club on AOL, under Star
Trek: The Written Word and Strange New Writers. Or come to our site,
www.startrekbooks.com, click on Comm Stations and come to the books
bbs, where we talk writing all the time. The most recent topic was
the use and non-use of exclamation points.
>
>As you have pointed out, writers who create their own universes look down on
>the tie- ins, so perhaps you yourself get looked down upon. Have some empathy
>and realize nobody likes your implied put downs, any more than you like being
>sneered at by your publishing peers.
I'm not implying any putdowns - heck, -I- didn't start the thread
about fan fic getting no respect, nor did I say that the perception
was justified or any such thing. The question was why fan fiction
gets no respect and I attempted to answer it.
John J. Ordover
>>Same in writing. If you are willing to submit your work to TPTB for
>>judgement, and it passes that judgement, then you'll get respect
>
> No. Then you'll get published. Not the same thing.
Actually, it pretty much is. Tell someone you're a writer, they'll
ask what you've published. Show someone a book or a pro magazine
with your name on the cover and their eyes will light up and they'll
look at you with more respect.
Again, I'm talking reality here, not "right" or "good" or anything.
Pyrephox
>I know, but that's you and me. I have a friend who's been reading the
>same paperback mystery for 2 years now. If he was only reading it when
>I see him reading, he SHOULD still be finished. I can't watch him
>read! I have to turn away!
::sigh:: I know. People read at different speeds, but with *mainstream*
romances (some of the small-press out there can rock), once you know the names
of the characters and their archetypes, you could write the rest of the book
yourself. :>
>Those older ones are a
>hoot, though. I mean, we worry about Mulder slamming Scully to a
>wall? Try the Greek tycoon pretty much raping the 19 year old
>doe-eyed virgin and she ends up loving it!--- bugs
...let's not forget that by this time he's probably called her a whore at least
once, accused her of a) seducing another member of his family, b) accused her
of being a moneygrubber, or c) thinks she's sleeping with a different man every
night.
Of course, in the last two pages (when Our Heroine has escaped from his
clutches and escaped back to her home, where she pines away for the feel of his
strong, manly arms about her fragile waist), he will track her down, let his
eyes become moist, and tell her how he only believed the worst of her because
he fell in love with her the moment he saw her. And she'll swallow it, they'll
get married, and she'll gladly give up whatever career pretentions she had, to
raise his beautiful, dark-eyed children.
And *that* is what the reader is supposed to consider a "victory" for the
Heroine.
Quite frankly, I'd prefer a few honest S&M scenes.
Pyrephox- ahem.. rant over. I guess.
bugs
>
> >From: bugs bugs...@my-deja.com
>
> >I know, but that's you and me. I have a friend who's been reading the
> >same paperback mystery for 2 years now. If he was only reading it when
> >I see him reading, he SHOULD still be finished. I can't watch him
> >read! I have to turn away!
>
> ::sigh:: I know. People read at different speeds, but with *mainstream*
> romances (some of the small-press out there can rock), once you know the names
> of the characters and their archetypes, you could write the rest of the book
> yourself. :>
I have a friend who reads the end of a romance first to make sure it
has a happy ending! Uh...I think it'll turn out all right. I knew
that's when I was time to move on from paperback romances. I found
myself skimming through the ridiculous set-ups and misunderstandings
to check to see if once, just one, Biff'd get his dick caught in the
fly of his molded-to-his-manly-thighs jeans. Never did, dammit!
>
> >Those older ones are a
> >hoot, though. I mean, we worry about Mulder slamming Scully to a
> >wall? Try the Greek tycoon pretty much raping the 19 year old
> >doe-eyed virgin and she ends up loving it!--- bugs
>
> ...let's not forget that by this time he's probably called her a whore at least
> once, accused her of a) seducing another member of his family, b) accused her
> of being a moneygrubber, or c) thinks she's sleeping with a different man every
> night.
>
Oh, yes. And her plump lower lip has trembled and trembled...she's
begged, she's whined, he just won't believe her!! The most closeness
he's shown her is when he's spread lotion on her impossibly white skin
so that she isn't burnt under the hot Greek sun. Then he jumps up and
runs off. Why!? Why!? Why!?
> Of course, in the last two pages (when Our Heroine has escaped from his
> clutches and escaped back to her home, where she pines away for the feel of his
> strong, manly arms about her fragile waist),
NO! She's always knocked up! So when he finally finds her, she's
living her simple life back in London in her bedsitter, being courted
by the weedy guy from Accounting, who wants to just give her and the
baby a good home.
he will track her down, let his
> eyes become moist, and tell her how he only believed the worst of her because
> he fell in love with her the moment he saw her. And she'll swallow it, they'll
> get married, and she'll gladly give up whatever career pretentions she had, to
> raise his beautiful, dark-eyed children.
>
> And *that* is what the reader is supposed to consider a "victory" for the
> Heroine.
Ah yes, the strong silent type. With an emphasis on the silent. To the
point of obtuse. Uh, where is this madly in love part suddenly coming
from?--bugs
stillwater16
your reality isn't my reality.
i haven't bought a trek book in years. i read this newsgroup every day.
i guess it's the difference between a kind of fanfic (because whether you're
using the characters with or without permission, they're not your characters)
where nothing happens, where the formula has to be followed, where the main aim
is preserving the franchise for future profit: that's a trek book.
or i can read fanfic that takes the characters new places, introduces new
feelings and new sites, where things change. that's the kind of fanfic i find
on this list.
i like changes. guess i'll stick with my kind of fanfic, and you'll stick with
yours.
stillwater16, who thanks heaven every day for internet fanfic
"okay, who ate all the jelly krimpets?"
http://www.geocities.com/stillwater16
Meg
A Weird Sister wrote:
> If you spend two weeks writing a piece of fanfiction, that's two weeks your
> professional novel went untouched. It's two weeks that you spent writing in
> someone else's universe. It's ideas and great dialogue you could have put into
> a professional piece.
That's quite a morsel for thought, Liz Ann. I'm a professional 'cellist
and have been since I was in my early teens. Does that mean that the
hours I spent in my school's orchestras would have been better spent
playing gigs for college money? Should I have eschewed the pittance
salaries of community theater pit orchestras every summer and spent that
time practicing excerpts or playing weddings? Even now, when I get
together with my friends and read chamber music, am I expending valuable
artistic energy on a non-professional endeavor? I prefer to think that
I've been broadening my repertoire of techniques and musical ideas while
at the same time interacting with peers and learning more about them -
in short, sharing what I love with like-minded folks.
I believe that artistry - whether or not it's for professional purposes
- is a renewable resource rather than drudgery into which one must pour
all one's time. If we can't have FUN with what we do well, then what's
the point of doing it at all?
JMHO. Everyone else's mileage will probably vary.
Meg,
who, for the record, has NO intention of trying to be published
professionally and has nothing to lose or gain by dabbling in fanfic. :)
Meg
Teddi Litman wrote:
> Yes, the time you spend on writing fanfiction is time taken away
> from professional writing. However, so is time spent eating, sleeping,
> reading, talking with friends, swimming, painting, playing
> tennis, shopping, camping, etc. The time I spend on this Ng
> does not prevent me from practicing dentistry. The time
> my colleague spent extracting teeth for free in Africa,
> did not prevent him from being able to practice
> dentistry for a living in the US. Why can we all be trusted
> to be able to balance our time so our professional careers
> aren't destroyed; but the person who wishes to write
> for a living can not be afforded the same trust?
Yeah. What she said. <g>
*Is* writing different from any other career (in or out of the arts), in
that the person writing must practice self-abegnation at a level
otherwise known only by those in Holy Orders? Can't writers write for fun?
Meg
Meg
"John J. Ordover" wrote:
<snipping my own stuff>
> The point is that by writing fan fiction, you're practicing the tuba
> when you want to be cellist. Those are both musical instruments but
> the demands, mindset, requirements, and what you have to know are very
> different.
So what you're telling me is that writing is such an exacting art that
nothing must come between the writer and the work? Good thing that I
chose to be a musician, since it seems to be so much *easier* to do.
Teddi, you lucky thing, aren't you glad that you only went to dental
school, which surely left you with tons and tons of time to pursue other interests?
I have a close relative who's a Pulitzer-Prize winning writer
(non-fiction, granted), and she has always managed to be well-rounded -
even during her "training period." I guess that fiction writing really
is the most time-consuming career in the world. Up until now I'd thought
it was medicine.
<me again>
>*Is* writing different from any other career (in or out of the arts), in
>that the person writing must practice self-abegnation at a level
>otherwise known only by those in Holy Orders? Can't writers write for fun?
<Mr Ordover>
Sure they can, but not while they're striving to turn pro.
Good heavens. I never realized that being a fiction writer meant that
one can have no quality of life whatsoever, that every waking moment
must be spent in work or study. Thank God that I'm "only" a musician and
a teacher. We all know that those professions allow you so much free time.
Meg
Meg
A Weird Sister wrote:
> I can speak from personal experience when it comes to writing, however. My
> goal is to be published. When I write fanfic, I'm not accomplishing that goal.
So why do you bother? You write very long, intricate stories that
probably take months to put together. If you're not enjoying it or
learning from it, what was the point?
> If your goal is to play in an orchestra, then you know if your playing outside
> that arena is beneficial for you or not, or if you are wasting your time. I
> can't make that judgment for you. These are two different professions with two
> different sets of rules.
What I'm hearing, particularly from Mr. Ordover, is that fiction writing
is so difficult that taking any time away from its study or practice is
wasteful (which makes me wonder why he is here with us in the first
place). It sounds a little self-serving to elevate writing so much that
dabbling in it for pure pleasure is as sinful as Sloth.
> Please see my other posts in which I state quite clearly that no one is going
> to buy fanfic and publish it.
Does anyone over the age of sixteen really believe that it will? That
sounds like going to a baseball game with a glove in hopes of catching a
foul ball and being signed up for the majors. What I was trying to say
was that no career seems worth pursuing if it means that you can only
participate in it for potential profit.
> If you love to write fanfic, then write it.
>
> If your desire is to be published, then pursue it with that same passion.
Passion is all very well and good, but it needs to be tempered with
common sense. Hobbies don't kill careers as long as they are pursued in moderation.
Meg
Meg
marked with asterisks for your skipping pleasure.
A Weird Sister wrote:
> I write it because I enjoy doing so. My stories do tend to be long, but I
> rarely spend more than a couple of weeks on them. I've learned almost
> everything I know about writing from fanfic. One day, I will stop writing
> fanfic completely, and I can actually see that day approaching.
Then good luck and Godspeed.
> No, writing isn't some Holy Grail pursuit. When you first learned to play the
> cello, did you approach it half-heartedly, or did you practice every day?
> After the first three months of practicing, did you get gigs to play in
> orchestras?
(here's the icky self-aggrandizing part)
***************
I didn't get my first offer until I'd been playing for six months -
guess I'm slow. <g> However, my parents made me wait until I was
thirteen before taking professional engagements. During that time I was
also an A student (having skipped a grade), studying ballet, and getting
in some quality "goof off" time so I wouldn't burn out. Was I advancing
my career by those pursuits? Maybe - ballet gave me a good sense of
rhythm and a lot of stage presence, and my grades were good enough to
get me a full scholarship for my undergrad degree, but that wasn't why I
did them. What meant the most to me was the play time, however - it's
what kept me from being a bitter, miserable sot like so many of my
contemporaries. Thank you, Mom and Dad!
***************
> Writing is the same way. The odds of being published are astronomical. Until
> you get published, you have to decide if this is going to be your goal. Just
> as for Teddi being a dentist. I bet she didn't get there by blowing off
> medical school and only showing up for the classes she liked.
Surely she did just the opposite - studied very hard and applied herself
thoroughly. In no way did I mean to imply anything to the contrary.
However, setting goals and doing hard work doesn't necessarily mean
becoming self-absorbed under the guise of advancing toward one's career.
There has to be a balance in order for the person to be healthy. The
worst doctors I've known have been the ones who ONLY studied and
practiced and never did anything to make themselves deeper human beings.
If writers chain themselves to their desks and do nothing but write,
read about writing, or pore over manuscripts, what will they be writing
ABOUT?
> Because you are established in your career, you have the luxury of doing things
> that do not directly advance your career.
Right now I get to do more and different things, but having other loves
never interfered with my original goal to be a musician. If anything,
they deepened my appreciation of the arts and how they interconnect -
something that would probably do painters, writers, and any other
artists good as well.
> <<<Passion is all very well and good, but it needs to be tempered with common
> sense. Hobbies don't kill careers as long as they are pursued in moderation.>>>
>
> I couldn't say it better.
>
> I want the career first--the hobbies will take care of themselves afterward.
Please make sure you take good enough care of yourself that you'll have
something positive to say in that career. Part of being good to yourself
entails knowing when to step away and be a little less serious once in a while.
Meg
Meg
A Weird Sister wrote:
>
> and crap--but I cut and pasted e-mail from someone to that thread.
That someone, just to clear this up right now, was NOT me.
Meg
Meg
A Weird Sister wrote:
>
> <<<That someone, just to clear this up right now, was NOT me.
>
> Meg>>>
>
> I don't believe that was ever an issue.
>
One never knows on this newsgroup what will become an issue. I simply
didn't want anyone thinking that note could possibly have been mine.
Meg
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
> >We have been thoroughly advised by you, and have not forgotten, that
> > we're not
> >real writers, that we're wasting our time, that this writing will not
> > lead to
> >'real' writing, and that what we do here is rubbish.
>
> Again, that's not what I said. I've never said that. What I've said
> is that it won't lead to a professional writing career.
Mr. Ordover,
Funny... I seem to remember that one of your authors -- probably your
best selling author -- of the Trek novel line, Peter David, did his very
first writing as a fanfic author, in the Doctor Who and Star Trek
universes... I myself own two fanzines with his work in them. He wrote
fanfiction, then comic books (and he got his big writing break there
because he worked in their distribution/returns department, and lobbied
to be able to write some stuff... using his fanfic as proof he could do
it), and from there led into print novels... Including your line, where
he's been bringing in big bucks for you. <g>
Many people, I believe, use fanfic as a their first means of expression
in writing - It's a slightly easier path to cut your writing eyeteeth
on, because you are using established characters and concepts. And I
don't believe that Peter David is the only writer (by _far_) that I have
ever heard of who made the jump from fan fiction to professional (read:
paid) writing -- He's simply a very good example because he is currently
pulling in big bucks for *YOU*.
Could you please cut us a teeny bit of slack? Thanks. <warm smile>
Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
trajan
living writing, I only have one question:
Who is John Ordover?
Regards,
Trajan
Pyrephox
>I have a friend who reads the end of a romance first to make sure it
>has a happy ending! Uh...I think it'll turn out all right.
Actually, there's one writer out there who has a nasty tendency of killing her
Heros off at the end of the novel, occassionally in gruesome, and completely
un-plotted off-screen ways. I remember throwing one of her novels across the
room after the poor guy got killed by something called the "Widowmaker".
>Oh, yes. And her plump lower lip has trembled and trembled...she's
>begged, she's whined, he just won't believe her!!
Plump? *Nothing* about a Heroine could dare to be plump! Except, of course,
when she's in the family way, when she always "glows with contentment".
>The most closeness
>he's shown her is when he's spread lotion on her impossibly white skin
>so that she isn't burnt under the hot Greek sun. Then he jumps up and
>runs off. Why!? Why!? Why!?
Hehehehe. Yup. Or when he rescues her from some incredably *stupid* thing that
she's done... "Ooh, I'm going to wander around in this hot Greek sun for a few
hours with no guide, water, hat, or sunscreen... I wonder what will happen?"
And of course, her "fair English skin", and ladylike constitution will cause
her to faint, convieniently in the front yard of some kindly Greek peasants who
will (of course) inform their always beloved Don that she's there.
Because the Hero will always treat every servant he has about a million times
better than he ever treats her.
>NO! She's always knocked up! So when he finally finds her, she's
>living her simple life back in London in her bedsitter, being courted
>by the weedy guy from Accounting, who wants to just give her and the
>baby a good home.
True, true. And she'll always look at the guy from Accounting and notice what a
"weak chin" he has, and wonder how she could have ever thought he was a real
man. ::groan:: He, of course, will be gentlemanly, and gracious, and not even
raise his voice... even when, in the first part of the novel, she has blatantly
used him in one or more ways.
>Ah yes, the strong silent type. With an emphasis on the silent. To the
>point of obtuse. Uh, where is this madly in love part suddenly coming
>from?--bugs
Well, gosh, he *had* to love her, right? She's so pure and innocent, like none
of the grasping career women he knew before, in his high powered lifestyle.
She's the only one not after his money, right? And she's so "unselfconcious"...
since the Heroine usually has an inferiority complex a mile high about her
looks, despite the fact that she's *always* the possessor of "eyes of a deep,
endless blue, like the sea" or a "dove grey gaze, under a screen of long, dark
lashes,".
Isn't it romantic?
Pyrephox
Weird Sister
respect. He said they don't get it in pro circles--which is true enough.
>When I asked you how someone might actually turn an interest in fanfic into a
>publication of a tie-in novel, the answer was silence.
Because tie-in authors are INVITED to write those tie-ins, based on the success
they've had writing in their own ORIGINAL universes. You can't turn an
interest in fanfic into the publication of a tie-in novel--at least not in the
Trek world (because I do think some Quantum Leap authors have been found in the
fanfic world, someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Ordover has given great advice on the craft, advice which I've taken, and I'm
seeing an improvement in my writing. Your mileage may vary, of course; but
it's worked for me.
And just as you have a right to post here, so does Ordover. When he searches
for his name and finds it in conversation, why shouldn't he join in? He can
enlighten people--he certainly did me, when once I rejected very strongly what
he said. I get it now. Thank you, John Ordover.
MissElise...remove the Eswoon to reply
http://www.purplepens.com/absolut
"It's a beautiful typewriter."
"Of course. It writes nothing but sensitive, intensely
felt, promsing prose." ~Holly & Paul, Breakfast at Tiffanys
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>In article <37fe6f49...@news.mindspring.com>, ord...@aol.com says...
>>
>>
>>>>Same in writing. If you are willing to submit your work to TPTB for
>>>>judgement, and it passes that judgement, then you'll get respect
>>>
>>> No. Then you'll get published. Not the same thing.
>>
>>Actually, it pretty much is. Tell someone you're a writer, they'll
>>ask what you've published. Show someone a book or a pro magazine
>>with your name on the cover and their eyes will light up and they'll
>>look at you with more respect.
>>
>>Again, I'm talking reality here, not "right" or "good" or anything.
>
>your reality isn't my reality.
>
>i haven't bought a trek book in years. i read this newsgroup every day.
>
>i guess it's the difference between a kind of fanfic (because whether you're
>using the characters with or without permission, they're not your characters)
>where nothing happens, where the formula has to be followed, where the main aim
>is preserving the franchise for future profit: that's a trek book.
>
>or i can read fanfic that takes the characters new places, introduces new
>feelings and new sites, where things change. that's the kind of fanfic i find
>on this list.
>
>i like changes. guess i'll stick with my kind of fanfic, and you'll stick with
>yours.
Sigh. Once again, I'm saying nothing whatever about how being
published -should- be considered, but how it is. I assume the
question "why does fan fiction get no respect" wasn't directed at a
lack of respect for fan fiction among those who write and read it, but
at a lack of respect for fan fiction among those who don't. Nor am I
saying anything at all about my own feelings about fan fiction.
John J. Ordover
wrote:
Ah, but again, Peter didn't become a pro writer until he -stopped-
writing fan fiction and begun to focus on professional gigs, and he
-didn't get a contract to do Star Trek novels until he had written a
heck of a lot of other professional stuff - comics and other novels.-
Yes, he wrote fan fiction in his youth. He was also set on a career
as a journalist and wrote dozens of articles, reems of ad copy, and
other such things.
So, if you really want to follow the path Peter laid down, note that
his pro success didn't come until -after he'd stopped writing fan
fiction.-
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>I've never seen where Ordover said that fanfic writers aren't worthy of
>respect. He said they don't get it in pro circles--which is true enough.
>
>>When I asked you how someone might actually turn an interest in fanfic into a
>>publication of a tie-in novel, the answer was silence.
>
>Because tie-in authors are INVITED to write those tie-ins, based on the success
>they've had writing in their own ORIGINAL universes. You can't turn an
>interest in fanfic into the publication of a tie-in novel--at least not in the
>Trek world (because I do think some Quantum Leap authors have been found in the
>fanfic world, someone correct me if I'm wrong).
>
>Ordover has given great advice on the craft, advice which I've taken, and I'm
>seeing an improvement in my writing. Your mileage may vary, of course; but
>it's worked for me.
>
>And just as you have a right to post here, so does Ordover. When he searches
>for his name and finds it in conversation, why shouldn't he join in? He can
>enlighten people--he certainly did me, when once I rejected very strongly what
>he said. I get it now. Thank you, John Ordover.
>
>
>MissElise...remove the Eswoon to reply
Thanks for the kind words, and Yer Welcome - drop me a line and tell
me how the writing's going. Been a while.
John J. Ordover
On the subject of helping new writers - Dean Smith and I have compiled
a list of writing hints on the basis of the Strange New Worlds fan
targeted writing contest. David Henderson has been nice enough to put
it up on the psiphi.org website at:
http://www.psiphi.org/cgi/upc-db/feature/snw-hints?ss
Dean and I add to this list on an irregular basis on the Strange New
Writers topic under Star Trek: The Written Word on the AOL Star Trek
Club.
mara...@my-deja.com
> Ah, but again, Peter didn't become a pro writer until he -stopped-
> writing fan fiction and begun to focus on professional gigs, and he
> -didn't get a contract to do Star Trek novels until he had written a
> heck of a lot of other professional stuff - comics and other novels.-
> Yes, he wrote fan fiction in his youth. He was also set on a career
> as a journalist and wrote dozens of articles, reems of ad copy, and
> other such things.
>
> So, if you really want to follow the path Peter laid down, note that
> his pro success didn't come until -after he'd stopped writing fan
> fiction.-
Dear Mr Ordover,
May I direct your attention to Paul Cornell, who I believe has a
two-book deal with Gollancz. In a cupboard at my parent's house I have
fanzines I bought when I was a teenager in which there are short stories
which formed the basis for his first published novel (a tv tie-in but a
bloody good one) He still writes tie-ins.
He may have moved onto other things, but I don't believe he has left the
fandom world entirely. (but by all means, if you wish to prove me wrong,
check with him, you'll find his e-mail address on deja.com)
But in the same way that it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same
time, many have grasped the joys of multi-tasking... writing
professionally, for profit, and fanfic for the sheer bloody subversive
joy of it.
Also, sorry to be anal, but I believe the word you are searching for is
"reams" not "reems".
Best wishes,
K.
.......................
Blink
sense to me. I'm not a writer and have absolutely no aspirations of
becoming one-in fact I would probably be singularly bad at it, but I am an
avid reader, one of those that I'm sure publishers love (e.g., I spend a
whole lot of money on books and I'm easily categorized).
Now here's what puzzles me. Like any business, I suspect a publisher's (at
least the big ones) main objective is to turn a profit. Understanding what
your readership is interested in and willing to spend money on is an
important part of succeeding at this. It would seem that in the area of
tie-ins, the fanfic communities would offer publishers a tremendous
opportunity to put their finger on the pulse of their potential market.
Granted, a lot of what's written is perhaps too far outside the mainstream
to be used. However, some of the authors have proven themselves to be
extremely good and that they can command a loyal following within the fan
community (which is surely the main market for these kinds of books). In
fact, after having read all the published X-File tie-ins, my personal
opinion (for what it's worth) is that authors like Jill Selby, LoneGunGuy,
Analise, Nascent, etc. are far better versed in the universe then the
so-called "respected" authors. Not only that, the overall quality of their
writing is frequently outstanding-I know I wouldn't hesitate to purchase
their stories.
Of course the argument could be made that only a very small segment of a
show's fandom read fanfic, but that's probably due to its somewhat hidden
nature more than anything else. I know I've turned several people on to it
who were ignorant of its existence and who have since fully embraced it.
Besides, it's still a larger slice than a focus group-although admittedly
the demographics are harder to nail.
Just like in any area of creative endeavor, proven ability in one area (an
author writing outstanding novels in their own universe) doesn't necessarily
translate into achieving the same level of success in another (an author
writing in an established universe). The really good fanfic authors have
devoted huge amounts of time and energy in researching and understanding the
universe they write in. Their dialog and characterization rings true
(something that the published authors tend to suck at). That's not to say
that all fanfic is great, most of it either isn't up to par or would never
be approved by TPTB due to its salacious content. However, from a purely
economic standpoint it seems short-sided to ignore those with potential
because of elitism.
I realize that you may not believe that this attitude of exclusivity is
right but perhaps you can shed some light on why publishers cling to it. Is
it ego, tradition, or is there some valid business reason that I'm
overlooking?
Thanks,
Blink
John J. Ordover <ord...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:37ff1005...@news.mindspring.com...
Kipler
eyes will light up and they'll
look at you with more respect.>>
I just don't think that's true - at least among the people I know who actually
*write.* There's a general acknowledgment that being published is often more
about pandering to an audience or market than it is about depth, creativity, or
intelligence. I went to the library the other day to pick out some fluff
reading. Here is an early sentence - first page - that made me stop dead in my
tracks:
"Speaking of dogs, as Mrs. Dodge, I am sure, habitually did from woofy sunrise
until late into the drooly, furry night, I was raised with, and to a large
extent by, golden retrievers."
That's as precious and poorly constructed a sentence as any I've seen in
fanfic, and *that's* the reason I don't offer generic respect to someone who's
managed to get herself published. This author has found her niche in the "dog
lovers' mystery" market, but her skill is far below that of many of my favorite
fanfic writers. Certainly, there are great published authors, but there are
lousy ones, too. I go on a case by case basis when handing out my respect.
So, Danielle Steele gets more respect from a certain portion of the population
than we fanfic writers do. I'm not sure we should be too concerned about
winning the respect of that segment of the population. ::Shrug::
--Kipler
John J. Ordover
>
>I realize that you may not believe that this attitude of exclusivity is
>right but perhaps you can shed some light on why publishers cling to it. Is
>it ego, tradition, or is there some valid business reason that I'm
>overlooking?
Okay, with the understanding that I'm speaking only for myself and the
Star Trek office...
First off, our guidelines are availible at www.startrekbooks.com,
under Editor's Logs and Guidelines, and we aren't closed to new
authors.
Second, here's what we need to know before we hire an author:
a) Can they complete an entire novel length work, up to professional
standards, under our guidelines and to our deadlines? A watchword in
publishing is that almost anyone has a good three chapters in them -
people who can finish the entire book are much rarer. Someone who has
a good, solid novel out that I have read and liked is clearly a much
better risk than someone who has never done it before.
b) Will they be able to handle the level of studio and producer
critique they will recieve, and make changes cheerfully and quickly?
Remember, it's not how the -fans- see the characters but how the
-producers- see the characters that gets a book through the approval
process. Fan fiction writers get praise along the lines of "your
vision for this character is so much better than the producers'
concept!" For a tie-in, bottom line is, you're going to have to do it
the producer's way - it's their football. Fan fiction writers, used
to the freedom of the internet and feeling passionate about doing it
their way have, in my experience, had a lot of trouble making the
many, many, -many- compromises necesssary.
c) Can they create inside the box? Almost all media guidelines, as
imposed by the owners of the property, not the publisher, boil down to
"don't change anything, don't flesh out a background, don't reveal
anything new, don't change or grow relationships, put all the pieces
back and the end of the book." (Star Wars is a special case, since
there was no ongoing Star Wars coming from Hollywood for quite some
time. OTOH, you might want to chat with an SW novel author about how
much they had to interact with the studio). That's pretty much the
-opposite- of what someone who writes fan fiction has been shooting
for.
Bottom line: Like in any industry, someone with professional
experience is just a better hire - and it is a hiring situation - than
someone without. If you were hiring someone to build you a house,
would you prefer someone with lots and lots of house building
experience, who can show you a dozen or at least one house they built
that you really like, or would you rather hire someone who's never
built a house before? The easiest way to rack up pro credits is to
sell to the SF magazines Analog, Asimov's and Fantasy and Science
fiction. No agent is needed, no experience necessary save actually
reading the mag you're submitting to and getting their submission
format guidelines. If I see that Stan Schmidt (Analog) Gardner Dozois
(Asimov's) or Gordon Van Gelder (F&SF) think your work is
professional, that means a lot to me. Second easiest is sellling an
original novel of your own, which is hundreds of times easier than
sellilng a tie-in novel, just on the number - a few dozen media books
a year and more than a thousand SF and fantasy novels a year, plus
lots of editors and lots of publishers, so you have many shots at
getting your genius recognized.:)
Hope that explains some of it.
John
John J. Ordover
>May I direct your attention to Paul Cornell, who I believe has a
>two-book deal with Gollancz. In a cupboard at my parent's house I have
>fanzines I bought when I was a teenager in which there are short stories
>which formed the basis for his first published novel (a tv tie-in but a
>bloody good one) He still writes tie-ins.
A two book deal for what? Again, that someone -used to write fan
fiction- doesn't mean they will -never- become a publisher author,
just that writing fan fiction isn't the best, or the easiest way, to
become a pro author.
Fastests route to pro publication: Sell a bnuch of short stories to
the pro mags I listed in another post. Then use those credits to sell
a novel.
>
>He may have moved onto other things, but I don't believe he has left the
>fandom world entirely. (but by all means, if you wish to prove me wrong,
>check with him, you'll find his e-mail address on deja.com)
Why would he leave the fandom world? I haven't, most of our writers
haven't. The question is, have they stopped writing fan fiction?
Blink
> I'm snipping it to save space.
Ahh, insight. I used to manage a graphic design group and for much the same
reasons I hesitated in hiring fine artists who were untried in the
commercial art world, so that aspect of it makes complete sense to me. (It
also should have been obvious to me, but I guess I didn't think hard enough
before asking.) It also helped me understand why a fanfic author would
choose not to pursue an opportunity to publish a tie-in. Those fanfic
stories that I love so well would probably become unrecognizable by TPTB.
I hope the guidelines you posted will help someone who does have the genuine
desire to be published achieve this. Thanks for taking the time to answer my
question and for posting your suggestions.
Blink
Kim
to stop writing fanfiction.
I trust you are planning to take that advice, or are taking it now. Your
ambition burns bright. You're The Professional here among us. I wish you all
the best luck in the world with it.
I choose, however, to continue to wonder why John Ordover participates in (1) a
fanfiction forum (2) that is not his fandom (3) with advice that doesn't apply
to most of us (4) with his obvious conflict of intere$t with the fanfic world
and (5) his thinly veiled, oh, what shall I say? Contempt? Superior attitude? I
guess I'm just not a good enough writer to come up with the right word.
Ordover does exploit the fan talent in "Strange New Worlds" for Trekdom and
that is a sign he's not entirely dense. The X-Files tie-in novels have been
pretty stale as far as writing, even within the confines of a tie-in piece that
can't go places with sex, background, plots, etc. that may conflict with the
future of the show/movies/novels. I have no idea why Ordover's counterpart at
Harper Collins gives the go-ahead on them. That person should contact the
better fanfic writers among us and say "You! Write for us!" and they're missing
out by failing to take advantage of this pool of talent.
Oh that's right, we, uh, aren't, meeting those darned professional standards.
Word counts and all that. Well most of us aren't. You are. There you are,
again. A cut above.
I suppose I'm just not smart or humble enough to appreciate how John Ordover
is doing me a favor in this forum. If I want publishing advice, I'll go
elsewhere. If I want writing advice, I'll go elsewhere. That's my bottom line.
Ordover offers me nothing and I have no interest in sucking up to him. We'll
see how this goes. Someday I could regret not seeing the bright light that John
Ordover is shining, but then, someday my books could be stacked 6 feet high in
the front window of Brentano's when John Ordover is pressing his nose against
the glass. I feel I should provide him my real name so that he can either
blackball me or envy me.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.simplenet.com <------ Note New URL
"Did I look adorable?" Mitch Pileggi, Season 4 Gag Reels :-)
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
Blink
regret this later) I feel a need to speak up. At the end of the other
thread I asked John Ordover a question that had been puzzling me for some
time. I received a clear, well-thought-out answer in which I detected no
contempt or superior attitude (nor did I in any of his other posts).
Although not being a writer perhaps I'm not as sensitive to it as you are
since you obviously have. You're certainly entitled to your feelings on the
subject and judging by other threads, they can be quite passionate.
What he had to say about the lack of respect for fanfic authors in the
publishing community may have been painful or disappointing to hear. That
said, I thought he made it clear that he didn't hold the same opinion. You
even point out that he has on occasion turned to the Star Trek fanfic
community for authors, which would seem to support this. So the personal
attack mystifies me and seems unfair. There must be some past history here,
in which case that's between the two of you and I have no interest in
becoming involved beyond the current thread.
What I do take issue with is having the motivations of those who have chosen
to either defend him or conduct meaningful dialogue with him, described as
sucking up. I have absolutely no reason or desire to do so. As for others, I
wouldn't presume to know their intentions either way, but coming to the
defense of someone who has been as helpful and supportive as Elise describes
seems appropriate.
In any case, there may be others on this ng who do appreciate his posts.
Perhaps you should killfile him. That way you can avoid his posts while
those of us who are interested can still read them.
Blink--preparing those asbestos pajamas.
Kim <journ...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991009095852...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Gwen
>There must be some past history here,
>in which case that's between the two of you and I have no interest in
>becoming involved beyond the current thread.
I have never gotten involved in an Ordover thread, but I will pipe up here to
say: Blink, you have no idea :-) It's not just Kim and Ordover -- it's Ordover
and a whole bunch of folks. It's an old and dirty history w/ hundreds of
responses. If you're a glutton for punishment and have several hours to spare,
you could do a search on deja, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Personally, I have no desire to be published and I don't look with more respect
on writers who have been published. The best writer I know has only been
published in a couple of magazines and stopped submitting his original work
because he hated the commercialism.
Anyway, Ordover's ideas have no impact on me. Since that's the case, no hard
feelings here. Just responding to let you know that there is a lot of history,
and it's very difficult for many here to look at this thread without relating
it to past negative experiences.
Gwen
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend...inside of a dog it's too
dark to read."
Groucho Marx
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
ord...@aol.com (John J. Ordover) wrote:
> Again, that someone -used to write fan
> fiction- doesn't mean they will -never- become a publisher author,
> just that writing fan fiction isn't the best, or the easiest way, to
> become a pro author.
I disagree. I believe, as I previously said, that writing fan fiction
is an extremely good way to begin to develop skill in the craft of
writing... To get it into marketable fashion, to find your own voice, to
discover if you even have the true inclination. (I'm not sure that
throwing out a much-loved story to the internet, and receiving zero
feedback in return, is not a very good practice for doing the same to
nine publishers, and receiving nine rejection letters - which I imagine
has happened to most professional writers at one point.)
I'm also not at all sure that trying to sell an extremely rough diamond
to professional editors will get most people very far. It has to be
marketable, or it ain't'a gonna market very well.
Mr. Ordover, think of every story written here as one less bad story in
your slushpile, and you may think more favorably of the activity.
<shrug>
Sincerely,
Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
Blink
the only explanation. Normally I would just ignore it, but her contention
that anyone who's chosen to constructively engage in this thread or who have
personal reasons to come to Ordover's defense as sucking up rankles me.
Perhaps it was just an unfortunate choice of phrasing on her part, in which
case I'm the one being too sensitive. Yeah, I know it's a ng and nastiness
is par for the course and I should just get over it.
Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicions about what's really behind
this. I think I'll pass on dredging it all up, frankly I have better things
to do today :-).
Blink
Gwen <gwe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991009113925...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
alanna
>Actually, there's one writer out there who has a nasty tendency of killing
>her
>Heros off at the end of the novel, occassionally in gruesome, and completely
>un-plotted off-screen ways. I remember throwing one of her novels across the
>room after the poor guy got killed by something called the "Widowmaker".
Or else doing something nasty to them to give them their comeuppance -- like
perhaps giving them a nice head injury for which the heroine can play
nursemaid, or cut off their arm ... hmm, I see a second career for Alex Krycek.
>Plump? *Nothing* about a Heroine could dare to be plump! Except, of course,
>when she's in the family way, when she always "glows with contentment".
Because all her fondest dreams have been realized. Do these heroes also have
previous children from doomed love affairs? Does she run out on him before the
fact can be known, believing he'll scorn her?
>Hehehehe. Yup. Or when he rescues her from some incredably *stupid* thing
>that
>she's done... "Ooh, I'm going to wander around in this hot Greek sun for a
>few
>hours with no guide, water, hat, or sunscreen... I wonder what will happen?"
I'm assuming you're talking historical romances -- poor girls, born 150 years
too early for Bain du Soleil (for that Melanomesque tan). Let them have their
ignorance. After all, women back then weren't expected to know anything
useful, unless they were a governess who falls in love with their master -- and
we see that so often in nineteenth century romances :)
>And of course, her "fair English skin", and ladylike constitution will cause
>her to faint, convieniently in the front yard of some kindly Greek peasants
>who
>will (of course) inform their always beloved Don that she's there.
>
>Because the Hero will always treat every servant he has about a million times
>better than he ever treats her.
Because he's a benevolent master who is not caught up in the war of emotions --
do I DARE love her? -- he feels for the heroine. Not to mention the servants
know all his secrets and he can't give them reason to spill those secrets to
the heroine.
>True, true. And she'll always look at the guy from Accounting and notice what
>a
>"weak chin" he has, and wonder how she could have ever thought he was a real
>man. ::groan:: He, of course, will be gentlemanly, and gracious, and not even
>raise his voice... even when, in the first part of the novel, she has
>blatantly
>used him in one or more ways.
The hero will always be gorgeous to the heroine, even though the outside world
"never truly realizes his beauty", and vice-versa. The heroine always has a
self-image problem, believing herself mousy and dull, and is awed that such a
perfect specimen of manhood could ever love a wisp of a thing like her.
(gee, I see this often in fanfic -- "Scully was so beautiful, Mulder thought,
but she seemed not to notice it." Flip the names around and it also works.
Just once I want to read a fic where they're both cognizant of the fact that
they're absofuckinglutely gorgeous and have no self-image problems whatsoever.)
>Well, gosh, he *had* to love her, right? She's so pure and innocent, like
>none
>of the grasping career women he knew before, in his high powered lifestyle.
>She's the only one not after his money, right? And she's so
>"unselfconcious"...
>since the Heroine usually has an inferiority complex a mile high about her
>looks, despite the fact that she's *always* the possessor of "eyes of a deep,
>endless blue, like the sea" or a "dove grey gaze, under a screen of long,
>dark
>lashes,".
Because she's also wise, having learned so much from her hard life. And
because he's so deathly afraid to say a word to her, for fear of rejection and
because he doesn't want her to know about his secrets.
Gee, in this post I've been describing Jane Eyre (though I admit I've messed
with a few of the details). Back in college we'd have long discussions in my
Victorian Novelists seminar regarding whether Jane Eyre was truly a feminist
novel. The consensus was yes, for the era in which it was written. The same
novel written today probably would be slammed as being an archetypal romance
novel. Funny, I first read it in high school and hated Jane for always running
away from all her problems. I re-read it in college and didn't have the same
reaction, as I was better able to see her reasons for doing what she did -- I
was more open to the feminist angle.
How do y'all see the story -- and would you characterize it as a romance novel
fitting the modern formulae, albeit with much better writing? Is Jane a strong
or weak woman?
cheers,
alanna (now only slightly feverish and doing good to remember college <g>)
+++++alanna++++
http://alanna.net
"When Jennifer told me how much teachers make, I was appalled.
I mean, children are our future! Um, they are our future, right?"
-- it's like, you know
John J. Ordover
Your welcome, and thanks for understanding what my goal is, here.
>Blink
>
>
>
>
Executive Editor
The Star Trek Novels
Pocket Books
www.startrekbooks.com
Kim
>At the risk of being accused of "sucking up"
Nobody has been accused of sucking up. I said *I* don't feel the need to suck
up to Ordover, but I did *not* say anyone is sucking up.
If you inferred it, that's your issue, not mine.
(and I'm sure I'm going to
>regret this later) I feel a need to speak up. At the end of the other
>thread I asked John Ordover a question that had been puzzling me for some
>time. I received a clear, well-thought-out answer in which I detected no
>contempt or superior attitude (nor did I in any of his other posts).
Yeah I saw that. Mr. Ordover was helpful, yes, and I'm sure people who can use
that information appreciate it.
Your interpretation as to his tone and his motivations is your prerogative. As
is mine.
>Although not being a writer perhaps I'm not as sensitive to it as you are
>since you obviously have.
I don't think I have any more or less sensitivity to Ordover because I write. I
have nothing vested in John Ordover's opinion of me. I wonder what he has
invested in dropping in a newsgroup where he has clearly said all this before,
since has no connection to the X-Files, and very little connection to fanfic.
You're certainly entitled to your feelings on
>the
>subject and judging by other threads, they can be quite passionate.
Yes, well, that's exactly how I'm wired. I say what I mean, think, feel and
believe.
>
>What he had to say about the lack of respect for fanfic authors in the
>publishing community may have been painful or disappointing to hear.
Please! You don't know me. What could you possibly know of what might cause me
pain or dissapointment? Do you think my own ambitions have anything to do with
John Ordover and his little corner of the publishing world? <snort>
That
>said, I thought he made it clear that he didn't hold the same opinion. You
>even point out that he has on occasion turned to the Star Trek fanfic
>community for authors, which would seem to support this. So the personal
>attack mystifies me and seems unfair.
I bear no personal animosity toward John Ordover. I don't even disagree with
his statements or opinions for the most part. It's very easy to see where he's
coming from, and why he operates the way he does. It would be stupid for me to
deny that fanfic gets no respect in the publishing world- of course it doesn't.
That's just common sense. It's so common sensical that it doesn't have to be
repeated to me a billion times. I absorbed it after like the first 2 or 3
times. I'm not entirely stupid.
I have had, however, quite enough of him coming into another fandom's fanfic
forum and pontificating all this mere common sense to us over and over. This
has all gone on in literally HUNDREDS of posts by him before, and I'm not alone
in finding this tedious and pointless, if not actually self-gratifying for him.
There must be some past history here,
>in which case that's between the two of you and I have no interest in
>becoming involved beyond the current thread.
I have exchanged a few posts with Ordover- I don't remember how many. Many
people around here have. I was left only with the strong impression that he has
no pressing business here in the X-Files forum and no information of value to
me that I could not find somewhere else in a more palatable presentation.
>
>What I do take issue with is having the motivations of those who have chosen
>to either defend him or conduct meaningful dialogue with him, described
>as
>sucking up.
I've already described this as your error, and you can take that or leave it.
I have absolutely no reason or desire to do so. As for others,
>I
>wouldn't presume to know their intentions either way, but coming to the
>defense of someone who has been as helpful and supportive as Elise describes
>seems appropriate.
Why exactly does Elise need your defense? Has she been attacked in some way? I
acknowledged that she is, as she wants to be, a budding professional, not
fanfic, writer. I can pay her no higher compliment than to say that she is
working on a different plane. She and Ordover have a past relationship that has
been beneficial to her and I hope it will continue to be. The same is not true
for me. I wish her well and she knows that.
I'm *just* a fanfic writer for now, and how and when I break out of that will
have nothing to do with John Ordover.
>
>In any case, there may be others on this ng who do appreciate his posts.
>Perhaps you should killfile him. That way you can avoid his posts while
>those of us who are interested can still read them.
>
>Blink--preparing those asbestos pajamas.
Why do you need the pajamas? Is a disagreement necessarily a flame? Is it such
a big deal that I respond, as you say, passionately, clarifying where you made
some erroneous statements, and state my arguments again?
Should it really be necessary for me to say I bear you no ill will simply
because I disagree with you? Or with anyone else?
I disagree with a lot of people on some points. 90% of those people are people
I'd sit down with over a beer or a cup of coffee, agree to disagree with them
on that point, and proceed to have a nice time with them discussing anything
and everything.
Out of all of X-Philesdom I can say I genuinely dislike about 4 people, I think
4 or 5 are certifiably insane, about 7 are people I'd rather avoid and I cannot
respect about a dozen. (Some of those overlap, too - like a dislikable insane
person I'd rather avoid and cannot respect - ewwww!) Everyone else is fine with
me, and I have the privilege of having of some wonderful friends. They somehow
manage to handle it that I disagree, that I state my opinions passionately, and
that I speak my mind.
Until you're advised otherwise, don't presume that you're being flamed. If you
want to interpret disagreement as a flame, then again, that's an issue with
your interpretation, not in what was said or meant.
Pyrephox
>How do y'all see the story -- and would you characterize it as a romance
>novel
>fitting the modern formulae, albeit with much better writing? Is Jane a
>strong
>or weak woman?
Hmm. Yeah, Jane Eyre is a pretty standard romance formula for us now, *but*
back then it was pretty darn special. And I've always thought that Jane was a
strong woman, because she did stand up for her beliefs, and showed more
gumption than the average gal. :> Of course, I've always enjoyed that novel, so
I'm probably biased. :P
Pyrephox
Dr. Ambress
Eyre and Pride and Prejudice, usually with only a rudimentary understanding
of why they work so well.
I think Jane Eyre is a feminist novel. Jane does perceive herself as mousy
and insignificant, but she also believes herself to be just as valuable as a
person as Rochester is. See the scene in the garden where she says that
their two souls are equal, and that she would make it just as difficult for
him to leave her if she had money and beauty as it is for her to leave him.
Her sense of her own worth goes against class, gender, and economics.
What's more, Rochester values Jane not just because he sees the beauty in
her, but because he sees them as a matched pair. He delights in her
conversation, and treats her as a person, not a servant. That is a radical
departure for the mid nineteenth century. What I love about the novel is
their conversations. Mulder and Scully come closer to their repartee than
most romance novels.
When Rochester begins to treat her as though they are not equals, but as a
typical coddled heroine, with jeweled necklaces, and new clothes etc. etc.
that is what makes Jane run away as much as the revelation about Bertha.
I think, as far as Bertha is concerned, that she runs away because she is
too passionately in love with him not to fuck him, and she knows it. The
moon tells her, "Daughter flee temptation" and she says "Yes mother, I will"
(Isn't that a bizarre little bit of paganism, or something akin to it, in a
novel that is purportedly Christian? I love it.) Jane doesn't want to lose
her self respect. She knows that if she becomes his mistress they will never
be equals, and she refuses to marry St. John because he only values her as a
servant to the Lord, and she knows she has worth of her own, as her own
person.
So, in conclusion <g>, I would say that the romance novel formula is an
inadequate watered down attempt to reproduce Jane Eyre, not that Jane Eyre
fits into the formula.
Ambress
--
Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
--Robert Frost
alanna wrote in message <19991009120308...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
<snip>
GravesPA2
inadequate watered down attempt to reproduce Jane Eyre, not that Jane Eyre
fits into the formula.>>
And I'd say this represents an inadequate understanding of romance novels. ;)
Paula Graves
stillwater16
says...
while paid publishers had their backs turned, the internet was born: a whole new
kind of publishing. no money at the end, but instead what most writers say they
write for: an *audience*, an immediate one, with feedback.
there may be people who are writing here in hopes of making the crossover. but
i think plenty of the writers here are writing for *love*, not money. they're
happy to not have to pander to the restrictive guidelines of the franchises
whose characters they use.
ordover's universe is a nice neat one from 1992 or so: writing = published,
paid, supervised. it just isn't that way anymore. the web is here, and it's
changed everything. <cheers from a grateful populace.>
stillwater16
"okay, who ate all the jelly krimpets?"
http://www.geocities.com/stillwater16
Dr. Ambress
plots/devices and stuff, nothing more than that. :)
Ambress
--
Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
--Robert Frost
GravesPA2 wrote in message <19991009125455...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
Blink
see where I misconstrued your message and I apologize. I'll own up to being
overly sensitive. In addition it was unfair of me to expect a flame.
How you choose to respond or conduct yourself online is normally none of my
business. This time I (incorrectly) felt it indirectly included me and felt
it necessary to defend my motivations.
I do feel John Ordover was being treated unfairly based on this particular
thread and wanted to suggest that we may not all feel the same way you do. I
ended up behaving in the manner in which I accused you and I'm not
particularly proud of that fact.
Blink
Kim <journ...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991009124344...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
A Weird Sister
learn things about writing that would have gotten me laughed out of the
professional writing world.
With that said, I have to say this.
If you are *serious* about writing professionally and being published, you
cannot serve two masters. I've understood that from almost the first time John
said that when I was still writing Star Trek fanfic.
I've watched John explain this concept in the Trek arena, and it's generally
with the same results.
You have one group who understands that if you enjoy writing fanfic, have no
intentions of being published professionally, then by all means, keep writing
it and telling your stories. No one is telling you to stop doing so.
Then there is the group who wants to be published professionally, yet they
don't want to give up the world of fanfic. No one is telling them to stop
writing fanfic, but you should want to devote more time to your professional
writing than you do your fanfic writing.
I've got a lot to learn about writing, but I'm not going to delude myself that
I'm ever going to get published writing X-Files fanfic. No one is going to buy
these stories, and while they are allowing me to sharpen my writing skills, I
could be doing that writing short stories and sending them out into the
professional market.
When I write query letters for professional manuscripts, you can bet that when
it comes time to list my accomplishments and publishing credits, X-Files and
Star Trek fanfic are not on that list.
la
Remove "bat" from my name for e-mail
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~
You're my reason for reason
The step in my groove
~Carlos Santana with Rob Thomas
"Smooth" for the album "Supernatural"
Teddi Litman
A Weird Sister wrote:
>
>
> Then there is the group who wants to be published professionally, yet they
> don't want to give up the world of fanfic. No one is telling them to stop
> writing fanfic, but you should want to devote more time to your professional
> writing than you do your fanfic writing.
>
With all due respect la, Mr. Ordover *did* insist that anyone who
wanted to be published needed to give up writing fanfic completely.
(This statement is perhaps similar to insisting that those working
on getting their PhDs in English Lit need to give up reading for
pure pleasure and only read that which directly relates to their studies.
I disagree with this. Sure, some students need *absolute* focus;
but many others are not going to be unduly distracted from
their studies by reading a dimestore novel once in a while.
"Fluff" reading might even help provide necessary relaxation
and help a student be *more* effective in his/her studies.<gasp>))
At least he did last time he visited us. He may have amended
his views since then; but so far, I haven't seen any indication
of that.
Teddi
Kim
>After reading your previous post with the benefit of these comments I can
>see where I misconstrued your message and I apologize. I'll own up to being
>overly sensitive. In addition it was unfair of me to expect a flame.
Hey, it's cool. No problem. I've done things like that a million times -
haven't we all?
So, there you go. Have a great weekend.
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>In article <37ff3bc2...@news.mindspring.com>,
> ord...@aol.com (John J. Ordover) wrote:
>
>
>> Again, that someone -used to write fan
>> fiction- doesn't mean they will -never- become a publisher author,
>> just that writing fan fiction isn't the best, or the easiest way, to
>> become a pro author.
>
>I disagree. I believe, as I previously said, that writing fan fiction
>is an extremely good way to begin to develop skill in the craft of
>writing... To get it into marketable fashion, to find your own voice, to
>discover if you even have the true inclination. (I'm not sure that
>throwing out a much-loved story to the internet, and receiving zero
>feedback in return, is not a very good practice for doing the same to
>nine publishers, and receiving nine rejection letters - which I imagine
>has happened to most professional writers at one point.)
>
>I'm also not at all sure that trying to sell an extremely rough diamond
>to professional editors will get most people very far. It has to be
>marketable, or it ain't'a gonna market very well.
And so you attend workshops run by professionals; take classes; form a
writer's workshop in your area or find a newsgroup or website or
listserve where you can post original work for critique. You need to
expose your writing directly to the critique of professionals, both
editors and writers, because whether your work sells depends entirely
on pleasing those in charge of buying it.
If you want to see the kind of thing an editor reads for, go check out
Dean Wesley Smith's hints to new writers, derrived from the SNW
contest, at:
http://www.psiphi.org/cgi/upc-db/feature/snw-hints?ss
I'll be interested to see what you think of them.
>
>Mr. Ordover, think of every story written here as one less bad story in
>your slushpile, and you may think more favorably of the activity.
><shrug>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Executive Editor
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister) wrote:
> Writing fanfiction has been wonderful practice for me. It's allowed
<snip>
<said slowly> Lalizwoman, the impression is forming that you are
reacting to what Mr. Ordover is meaning, and I am reacting to what John
Ordover is saying. I see broad, sweeping generalized statements
written in these recent messages by Mr. Ordover, that *are* probably
*somewhat* applicable -- But are probably much too all-encompassing for
me to agree to their probity. So I have disagreed with them, and
attempted to explain why. You have expressed much more specific and
specialized statements, with a different slant, and perhaps with a
greater understanding (from outside sources?) of what Mr. Ordover may be
trying to get across.
I disagree with nothing that you have just said in your message. I feel
that the literal meaning of what you are saying is different from what
Mr. Ordover is saying -- Perhaps he is not phrasing correctly to express
himself?
John J. Ordover
>*~*~*~*~*~*
>Kim
>Journ...@aol.com
>http://journeytox.simplenet.com <------ Note New URL
>"Did I look adorable?" Mitch Pileggi, Season 4 Gag Reels :-)
>"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
Well, now you've complained that I didn't give you any advice -and-
stated that you don't want any from me, which is at least a little
contradictory.:)
Lots of advice on writing is posted at:
http://www.psiphi.org/cgi/upc-db/feature/snw-hints?ss
If writing fan fiction is helping so much in your dream of being a
professional author, how's that been going? It's been what, a year
since I've been here? Same question to all those espousing fan fiction
as good practice - any sales to pro markets in the last year?
A Weird Sister
be published needed to give up writing fanfic completely.
(This statement is perhaps similar to insisting that those working on getting
their PhDs in English Lit need to give up reading for pure pleasure and only
read that which directly relates to their studies. I disagree with this. Sure,
some students need *absolute* focus; but many others are not going to be unduly
distracted from their studies by reading a dimestore novel once in a while.
"Fluff" reading might even help provide necessary relaxation and help a student
be *more* effective in his/her studies.<gasp>)) At least he did last time he
visited us. He may have amended his views since then; but so far, I haven't
seen any indication of that.
Teddi>>>
Every piece of fanfic I write is one more professional piece I could have
written and submitted to a publisher.
I honestly don't understand why this is such a hard concept.
If you spend two weeks writing a piece of fanfiction, that's two weeks your
professional novel went untouched. It's two weeks that you spent writing in
someone else's universe. It's ideas and great dialogue you could have put into
a professional piece.
What John did say was that if you are going to approach writing seriously, then
you need to examine your priorities. Either write as a professional writer, or
continue practicing with fanfic. I can assure you that a publisher doesn't
care how many X-Files stories you've written.
And really, exactly what about that is illogical?
Gwen
>professional author, how's that been going? It's been what, a year
>since I've been here? Same question to all those espousing fan fiction
>as good practice - any sales to pro markets in the last year?
To be fair, let's ask the same question to those who have been following your
advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see if
one path has really been more successful than another.
John J. Ordover
>>If writing fan fiction is helping so much in your dream of being a
>>professional author, how's that been going? It's been what, a year
>>since I've been here? Same question to all those espousing fan fiction
>>as good practice - any sales to pro markets in the last year?
>
>To be fair, let's ask the same question to those who have been following your
>advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see if
>one path has really been more successful than another.
That sounds fair, but where do we reach them? They aren't reading or
writing fan fiction.:)
Gwen
>writing fan fiction.:)
Well, neither are you apparently. But you're here ;-)
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
ord...@aol.com (John J. Ordover) wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 16:45:51 GMT, heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
> wrote:
> >I disagree. I believe, as I previously said, that writing fan
> >fiction
> >is an extremely good way to begin to develop skill in the craft of
> >writing... To get it into marketable fashion, to find your own voice,
> >to
> >discover if you even have the true inclination. (I'm not sure that
> >throwing out a much-loved story to the internet, and receiving zero
> >feedback in return, is not a very good practice for doing the same to
> >nine publishers, and receiving nine rejection letters - which I
> >imagine
> >has happened to most professional writers at one point.)
> >
> >I'm also not at all sure that trying to sell an extremely rough
> >diamond
> >to professional editors will get most people very far. It has to be
> >marketable, or it ain't'a gonna market very well.
>
> And so you attend workshops run by professionals; take classes; form a
> writer's workshop in your area or find a newsgroup or website or
> listserve where you can post original work for critique. You need to
> expose your writing directly to the critique of professionals, both
> editors and writers, because whether your work sells depends entirely
> on pleasing those in charge of buying it.
To give background, I am acquaintances/friends with several published,
selling authors in the genre of Science Fiction. I have had many deep,
probing talks with them on this subject; and have attended more SF
panels/workshops/hint-sessions/etc. at various cons than I hope to
remember. I am also an avid reader, of broad range - a lot more than
just fiction - including the social sciences of how to accomplish goals
of various types. And one overriding theme that I have picked up from
all of these sources is: To be a writer, just start writing. Write
*FIRST*, writing about things that matter to you, writing and writing
and writing until your skill levels are high, finding out what you can
love writing that is still entertainment to other people, _THEN_
carefully study the market, to find out who is buying what you want to
write. If your writing is *ENTERTAINING*, no matter what type of
writing it is, *Somebody* out there is buying it. And the more off the
beaten path of pre-existing stuff that *your* voice is, the better
chance you have of making it Big, instead of making it onto the middle
levels of writing, if that.
To reiterate: Write until you are writing *well*, *from the heart*, and,
most of all, *entertainingly* -- *THEN* study the market to sell. This
is how one becomes established. (And no, this is *NOT* the established
writer's day-to-day lifestyle - This is how *YOU GET STARTED*.)
Another important theme I picked up is that most professional workshops
for your writing are next to Worthless -- This is straight from the
mouths of the published, getting money for their labors writers. There
is *NO* guarantee that editors these days know entertainment (which is
what *sells* -- As the great SF writer Robert A. Heinlein said, these
people could be spending their money on beer. The writer must
consciously be more entertaining, so that their stuff is worth more than
that beer), or even literacy, more than *ANYBODY* else. And after
years of sifting through that sad slushpile, many editors literally are
hampered greatly when it comes to telling what most people will like, or
pay for -- Their senses have been blunted. And professional authors
running workshops mostly only know their *OWN* voice -- They usually
have little idea how to get you in touch with *YOURS* -- other than by
reiterating the same advice of Write Write Write. So the biggest, and
perhaps Only, advantage to be found in professional workshops is if you
happen to luck onto an editor that your work fits the profile of what
she is trying to sell, *and* she thinks your stuff is up to snuff, that
you *might* make a sale faster than you would otherwise.
Classes? See above, mostly... With the addendum of if the teachers of
these classes were good enough (and *entertaining* enough) writers to
sell, they would be *selling* - and not teaching that class.
Newsgroup or website or listserve where you can post work? I thought
that's what we were doing *HERE*, Mr. Ordover -- with the added benefits
of: 1) It is easier to make an initial start to write with an
established universe and characters than it is with doing your own; 2)
This newsgroup has a *MUCH*, _*MUCH*_ larger range of exposure than
almost *ANY* other group of its type, with a corresponding archive so
that your work will be seen by many eyes for years to come; and 3) This
newsgroup has an established ratings system, so that people can see in a
*glance* what type of story that a posting is, and decide whether they
want to read it... With the practical upshot that your work is going to
*exactly* the people that read a lot of the type of story that is your
voice... And is therefore *EXACTLY* the target audience *THAT YOU WANT*
to critique your story. (I would bet a pretty stack of dollars that
there are also many more advantages than this -- Those are simply the
ones that were at the top of my head as I wrote this.)
And after you get through all this? If you still want to go on (Not a
given, no matter what you read or think), *THEN* you study where to sell
what you're writing. Not before. To quote Sharyn McCrumb in her
classic SF mystery _Bimbos of the Death Sun_, "Being a professional
writer is a lot like being a hooker. You'd better find out if you're
any good at it before you start charging for it."
Sincerely,
Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
P.S. I read the Dean Wesley Smith article; it seems to be the basics of
what I just said, with some pointing out of boo-boos that most fanfic
authors seem to get trained out of early -- Feedback is a wonderful
thing.
A Weird Sister
your
advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see if
one path has really been more successful than another. >>>
I've got two books with publishers right now. I may get rejections for both of
those books, but I can guarantee you that if I do, I'll send them to another
publisher immediately.
I may never be published, but it will not be from a lack of trying, or because
I refused to acknowledge that professional standards in writing are what
publisher are interested in seeing in manuscripts.
I can hold on to the notion that I'm different, special in some way and that
those rules don't apply to me or my writing. I can also expect to see anything
I send to a publisher returned with a rejection form letter.
A Weird Sister
reacting to what Mr. Ordover is meaning, and I am reacting to what John
Ordover is saying. I see broad, sweeping generalized statements
written in these recent messages by Mr. Ordover, that *are* probably
*somewhat* applicable -- But are probably much too all-encompassing for
me to agree to their probity. So I have disagreed with them, and
attempted to explain why. You have expressed much more specific and
specialized statements, with a different slant, and perhaps with a
greater understanding (from outside sources?) of what Mr. Ordover may be
trying to get across.>>>
I'm reacting to what I *know* John Ordover is saying. I've known the man four
years now, and in that time, he has never changed his stance on this, and he
has been expressly clear in how he has stated it--here and in other forums.
Please don't feel the need to speak slowly to me. I understand.
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister) wrote:
> What John did say was that if you are going to approach writing
> seriously, then
> you need to examine your priorities. Either write as a professional
> writer, or
> continue practicing with fanfic.
Um, well, to be fair, John Ordover didn't say that, you did. :) :)
(Whether he meant it or not is a whole 'nother ball of wax bound up with
some worms that escaped from the can. <g>)
As a general rule, I do not disagree with it, either. Although I have
had writer-friends blow off creative steam in that way before. But I
admit I haven't found it to be common. <shrug> (But they later rescued
most of the story elements and reused them. So it probably wasn't a
real waste. <shrug> ) (Get the feeling that there are two sides to this
issue? <g> <blush>)
Sincerely,
Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister) wrote:
> reacting to what Mr. Ordover is meaning, and I am reacting to what
> John
> Ordover is saying. I see broad, sweeping generalized statements
> written in these recent messages by Mr. Ordover, that *are* probably
> *somewhat* applicable -- But are probably much too all-encompassing
> for
> me to agree to their probity. So I have disagreed with them, and
> attempted to explain why. You have expressed much more specific and
> specialized statements, with a different slant, and perhaps with a
> greater understanding (from outside sources?) of what Mr. Ordover may
> be
> trying to get across.>>>
>
> I'm reacting to what I *know* John Ordover is saying. I've known the
> man four
> years now, and in that time, he has never changed his stance on this,
> and he
> has been expressly clear in how he has stated it--here and in other
> forums.
<snip>
> Please don't feel the need to speak slowly to me. I understand.
I apologize -- Now *I* am the one who is not getting things across
clearly. That was meant to express hesitation on my part; _*NOT*_ any
mental inadequacies on your part. Again, I apologize for not
expressing myself in a clear fashion.
> I'm reacting to what I *know* John Ordover is saying. I've known the
> man four
> years now, and in that time, he has never changed his stance on this,
> and he
> has been expressly clear in how he has stated it--here and in other
> forums.
It seems to me that the message of your interpretation of his words, and
the literal, semantic meaning of the word-forms he has expressed in
messages written on this topic in the past two days (sorry for the
fifty-cent words and wordy expressions; I am trying to make the meaning
of what I have to express as unambiguous as possible) are not the same.
It seems also that most people, after four years, would most likely
have a better understanding of what someone was trying to say than
someone who has not known them that amount of time. I have not found
the messages to be equivalent. I suggest, therefore, that your
knowledge of the man, John Ordover, might be enough that you are not
necessarily forced to read his words anew, and try to semantically
figure out exactly what he means, as I and probably many others here are
forced to do.
If you still disagree with my interpretation of the events above, you
may consider me as in the state of Agreeing to Disagree, and dropping
it.
Teddi Litman
A Weird Sister wrote:
> <<<With all due respect la, Mr. Ordover *did* insist that anyone who wanted to
> be published needed to give up writing fanfic completely.
> (This statement is perhaps similar to insisting that those working on getting
> their PhDs in English Lit need to give up reading for pure pleasure and only
> read that which directly relates to their studies. I disagree with this. Sure,
> some students need *absolute* focus; but many others are not going to be unduly
> distracted from their studies by reading a dimestore novel once in a while.
> "Fluff" reading might even help provide necessary relaxation and help a student
> be *more* effective in his/her studies.<gasp>)) At least he did last time he
> visited us. He may have amended his views since then; but so far, I haven't
> seen any indication of that.
>
> Teddi>>>
>
> Every piece of fanfic I write is one more professional piece I could have
> written and submitted to a publisher.
>
> I honestly don't understand why this is such a hard concept.
>
> If you spend two weeks writing a piece of fanfiction, that's two weeks your
> professional novel went untouched. It's two weeks that you spent writing in
> someone else's universe. It's ideas and great dialogue you could have put into
> a professional piece.
>
> What John did say was that if you are going to approach writing seriously, then
> you need to examine your priorities. Either write as a professional writer, or
> continue practicing with fanfic. I can assure you that a publisher doesn't
> care how many X-Files stories you've written.
>
> And really, exactly what about that is illogical?
>
It isn't; I never said it was. You neglected to address the comment
you made that I was refuting and that was:
No one is telling them to stop
> writing fanfic, but you should want to devote more time to your professional
> writing than you do your fanfic writing.
That's not true. Regardless of how much Mr. Ordover annoys some
of us, he is someone. Someone who told a certain group of people,
they needed to stop wring fanfic. He didn't say "devote more time
to your professional writing than you do to your fanfic writing."
I think you are modifying his assertions to fit *your* philosophy here.
He said, don't devote *any* time to fanfic writing if you want to
write professionally.
Mr. Ordover is telling *you* (I'm assuming you have aspirations to be a
professional writer. Forgive me if this assumption is incorrect.); if you ever hope
to publish
anything, to stop writing fanfic *completely* and forever. Or at least that's
what he said the last time he was here.
If you agree with Mr. Ordover, you shouldn't be here, at all.
The fact that you are here means either you don't completely
agree with Mr. Ordover or that you no longer have any desire to publish
anything ... ever.
Please, don't think I'm telling you to go away. I'm not. I don't
agree with Mr.Ordover. I think he is too *extreme* in
his attitude towards fanfiction.
Yes, the time you spend on writing fanfiction is time taken away
from professional writing. However, so is time spent eating, sleeping,
reading, talking with friends, swimming, painting, playing
tennis, shopping, camping, etc. The time I spend on this Ng
does not prevent me from practicing dentistry. The time
my colleague spent extracting teeth for free in Africa,
did not prevent him from being able to practice
dentistry for a living in the US. Why can we all be trusted
to be able to balance our time so our professional careers
aren't destroyed; but the person who wishes to write
for a living can not be afforded the same trust?
Teddi
Teddi Litman
A Weird Sister wrote:
> <<<To be fair, let's ask the same question to those who have been following
> your
> advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see if
> one path has really been more successful than another. >>>
>
> I've got two books with publishers right now.
Ah, but la, as Mr. Ordover himself stated, ("They aren't reading or
writing fan fiction.") you aren't one of those people who have
been following his advice. Although, I do note he has modified
his advice a bit after all. Now, apparently *reading* fanfiction
will also destroy one's chances for a professional writing career.
Teddi
Gwen
advice, you're not here. His exact words in responding to my earlier question
about the success of people following his advice:
"That sounds fair, but where do we reach them? They aren't reading or
writing fan fiction.:)"
His point seems to be that anyone following his advice wouldn't be on this NG
to read my question at all. I'm taking him at his word.
Again, I want to stress I have no want/desire/need to be published. The whole
argument is basically one of semantics as far as I'm concerned. I wish you all
the luck in the world in being published. I will also admit I don't read the
kind of genre fiction Mr. Ordover publishes, so I'm equally ignorant on the
subject of what sells on the Star Trek fan market. As a matter of fact, I'm
probably as snobbish on the subject of that kind of genre fiction as he is
about non-published writers :-)
Gwen
>Subject: Re: Ordover Redux Was: Re: Article on print erotica
>From: laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister)
>Date: Sat, 09 October 1999 03:23 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19991009152328...@ng-fw1.aol.com>
>
><<<To be fair, let's ask the same question to those who have been following
>your
>advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see
>if
>one path has really been more successful than another. >>>
>
>
>I've got two books with publishers right now. I may get rejections for both
>of
>those books, but I can guarantee you that if I do, I'll send them to another
>publisher immediately.
>
>I may never be published, but it will not be from a lack of trying, or
>because
>I refused to acknowledge that professional standards in writing are what
>publisher are interested in seeing in manuscripts.
>
>I can hold on to the notion that I'm different, special in some way and that
>those rules don't apply to me or my writing. I can also expect to see
>anything
>I send to a publisher returned with a rejection form letter.
>
>la
>Remove "bat" from my name for e-mail
>~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~
>You're my reason for reason
>The step in my groove
>~Carlos Santana with Rob Thomas
>"Smooth" for the album "Supernatural"
>
>
>
>
>
>
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>
>A Weird Sister wrote:
>> If you spend two weeks writing a piece of fanfiction, that's two weeks your
>> professional novel went untouched. It's two weeks that you spent writing in
>> someone else's universe. It's ideas and great dialogue you could have put into
>> a professional piece.
>
>
>That's quite a morsel for thought, Liz Ann. I'm a professional 'cellist
>and have been since I was in my early teens. Does that mean that the
>hours I spent in my school's orchestras would have been better spent
>playing gigs for college money? Should I have eschewed the pittance
>salaries of community theater pit orchestras every summer and spent that
>time practicing excerpts or playing weddings? Even now, when I get
>together with my friends and read chamber music, am I expending valuable
>artistic energy on a non-professional endeavor? I prefer to think that
>I've been broadening my repertoire of techniques and musical ideas while
>at the same time interacting with peers and learning more about them -
>in short, sharing what I love with like-minded folks.
The point is that by writing fan fiction, you're practicing the tuba
when you want to be cellist. Those are both musical instruments but
the demands, mindset, requirements, and what you have to know are very
different.
>
>I believe that artistry - whether or not it's for professional purposes
>- is a renewable resource rather than drudgery into which one must pour
>all one's time. If we can't have FUN with what we do well, then what's
>the point of doing it at all?
>
>JMHO. Everyone else's mileage will probably vary.
>
>
>Meg,
>who, for the record, has NO intention of trying to be published
>professionally and has nothing to lose or gain by dabbling in fanfic. :)
A Weird Sister
John's message when I first saw it *four* years ago. However, at that time, I
wasn't at a place that *I* could appreciate it. I resented him then, and like
many of the people who are disagreeing with him in this thread, I felt quite
justified in my belief that John didn't know what he was talking about.
After all, what would an editor for a publishing house know, right? ;)
I was exceedingly arrogant in my belief that my writing could be taken from the
Trek newsgroup and translated directly into print as a Trek novel. John, I'm
still ticked that you didn't want those stories, btw. :P Even if my POV did
suck! Those were some darn good stories, and you should have overlooked the
hideous warts and published them anyway. :P I could have learned the more I
wrote.
Then, I realized just what I didn't know about writing, and I cringe now when I
read those stories. I still don't know all there is to know about writing, but
in the past year, John's words have had more meaning to me because I've written
more profic, and less fanfic. I can see a vast improvement in my writing.
Folks, if writing fanfic gives you joy, then write it. You are under no
obligation to change the way you write, nor what you write. But, if you dream
of being published, you have to realize that there are standards you need to
adhere to.
I've seen several posts where people have said (myself included) that writing
fanfic has helped to improve their writing, but if you chafe against writing
standards, if you feel that your writing doesn't have to conform to some
professional standards, then the only benefit you are getting from fanfic is
the love of writing it. That in no way is a bad thing, but you need to know
what your motivations are.
John's message hasn't changed in the four years I've known him. I got it then,
even if I didn't want to admit he was right. I get it today, only now I
appreciate what he is saying.
A Weird Sister
writing fan fiction.") you aren't one of those people who have
been following his advice. Although, I do note he has modified
his advice a bit after all. Now, apparently *reading* fanfiction
will also destroy one's chances for a professional writing career.
Teddi>>>
Teddi, I may not follow his advice right now, but I certainly understand what
he is saying.
My professional writing is a hundred times better when I set aside fanfic and
concentrate wholly on profic.
Frankly, I can't see myself writing fanfic much longer. I know I'm not going
to involve myself in another fandom, simply because I can see the drain it
places on my professional writing.
John J. Ordover
<dayb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>A Weird Sister wrote:
>
>> <<<With all due respect la, Mr. Ordover *did* insist that anyone who wanted to
>> be published needed to give up writing fanfic completely.
>> (This statement is perhaps similar to insisting that those working on getting
>> their PhDs in English Lit need to give up reading for pure pleasure and only
>> read that which directly relates to their studies. I disagree with this. Sure,
>> some students need *absolute* focus; but many others are not going to be unduly
>> distracted from their studies by reading a dimestore novel once in a while.
>> "Fluff" reading might even help provide necessary relaxation and help a student
>> be *more* effective in his/her studies.<gasp>)) At least he did last time he
>> visited us. He may have amended his views since then; but so far, I haven't
>> seen any indication of that.
>>
>> Teddi>>>
>>
>> Every piece of fanfic I write is one more professional piece I could have
>> written and submitted to a publisher.
>>
>> I honestly don't understand why this is such a hard concept.
>>
>> If you spend two weeks writing a piece of fanfiction, that's two weeks your
>> professional novel went untouched. It's two weeks that you spent writing in
>> someone else's universe. It's ideas and great dialogue you could have put into
>> a professional piece.
>>
Time is limited. Time to practice art for no money is limited. You
have to treat wanting to be a pro writer as a second job - if you're
not spending at least 20 hours a week on it, you're not giving enough.
Swimming, painting, playing with friends are all well and good, but if
you're at your keyboard (and you want to be a pro writer) and you're
not working on pro stuff, then you're wasting valuable practice time.
If you have enough time in your life for 20 hours a week of pro
writing -plus- time for fan fiction, that's more time than most people
have.
What you're missing is that you, as a dentist, are -already-
established in your career; a wanna-be writer is still in the training
process, essentially taking a "full load of courses" while working
full-time.
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>
>
>Teddi Litman wrote:
>
>> Yes, the time you spend on writing fanfiction is time taken away
>> from professional writing. However, so is time spent eating, sleeping,
>> reading, talking with friends, swimming, painting, playing
>> tennis, shopping, camping, etc. The time I spend on this Ng
>> does not prevent me from practicing dentistry. The time
>> my colleague spent extracting teeth for free in Africa,
>> did not prevent him from being able to practice
>> dentistry for a living in the US. Why can we all be trusted
>> to be able to balance our time so our professional careers
>> aren't destroyed; but the person who wishes to write
>> for a living can not be afforded the same trust?
>
>
>Yeah. What she said. <g>
>
>*Is* writing different from any other career (in or out of the arts), in
>that the person writing must practice self-abegnation at a level
>otherwise known only by those in Holy Orders? Can't writers write for fun?
Sure they can, but not while they're striving to turn pro.
>
>Meg
John J. Ordover
. And is therefore *EXACTLY* the target audience *THAT YOU WANT*
>to critique your story. (I would bet a pretty stack of dollars that
>there are also many more advantages than this -- Those are simply the
>ones that were at the top of my head as I wrote this.)
Nope. The target audience you want to please is the editors in charge
of buying writing from writers.
Don't know who all those pros you're talking to are, but yes, if
you're stuff -strikes an editor as being what they want to publish- it
will sell to them. I'm not saying study the market and figure out
what's selling - that never works, because you're always behind the
curve. I'm saying figure out what it is that makes a commerical
editor go "aha! This stuff is great! I must buy it and publish it!"
and you can only do that figuring by going to directly to the source.
The best possible source is a Writer's Workshop run by a pro writer or
editor - like the one Dean Smith and Kris Rusch take to cons, the one
James Gunn runs at the University of Kansas or the Clarion Writer's
Workshops that invite lots of professionals to come talk. Or heck,
just read the hints at:
ttp://www.psiphi.org/cgi/upc-db/feature/snw-hints?ss
to get started.
>
>And after you get through all this? If you still want to go on (Not a
>given, no matter what you read or think), *THEN* you study where to sell
>what you're writing. Not before. To quote Sharyn McCrumb in her
>classic SF mystery _Bimbos of the Death Sun_, "Being a professional
>writer is a lot like being a hooker. You'd better find out if you're
>any good at it before you start charging for it."
Fi
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
>
>
>
>P.S. I read the Dean Wesley Smith article; it seems to be the basics of
>what I just said, with some pointing out of boo-boos that most fanfic
>authors seem to get trained out of early -- Feedback is a wonderful
>thing.
>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Executive Editor
John J. Ordover
<dayb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>A Weird Sister wrote:
>
>> <<<To be fair, let's ask the same question to those who have been following
>> your
>> advice...any sales to pro markets in the last year? I'm just curious to see if
>> one path has really been more successful than another. >>>
>>
>> I've got two books with publishers right now.
>
>Ah, but la, as Mr. Ordover himself stated, ("They aren't reading or
>writing fan fiction.") you aren't one of those people who have
>been following his advice. Although, I do note he has modified
>his advice a bit after all. Now, apparently *reading* fanfiction
>will also destroy one's chances for a professional writing career.
>
> Teddi\
Reading fan fiction takes away the time you need to spend reading the
specific magazines or genre books you're targeting. You need to study
as well as write.
A Weird Sister
have been since I was in my early teens. Does that mean that the hours I spent
in my school's orchestras would have been better spent
playing gigs for college money? Should I have eschewed the pittance salaries of
community theater pit orchestras every summer and spent that time practicing
excerpts or playing weddings? Even now, when I get together with my friends and
read chamber music, am I expending valuable artistic energy on a
repertoire of techniques and musical ideas while at the same time interacting
with peers and learning more about them - in short, sharing what I love with
like-minded folks.>>>
You know, if these two things were the same thing, I could answer that. I
can't. We are talking two different professions here, and I certainly have no
experience when it comes to music.
I can speak from personal experience when it comes to writing, however. My
goal is to be published. When I write fanfic, I'm not accomplishing that goal.
If your goal is to play in an orchestra, then you know if your playing outside
that arena is beneficial for you or not, or if you are wasting your time. I
can't make that judgment for you. These are two different professions with two
different sets of rules.
<<<I believe that artistry - whether or not it's for professional purposes - is
a renewable resource rather than drudgery into which one must pour all one's
time. If we can't have FUN with what we do well, then what's the point of doing
it at all?
JMHO. Everyone else's mileage will probably vary.>>>
Please see my other posts in which I state quite clearly that no one is going
to buy fanfic and publish it.
If you love to write fanfic, then write it.
If your desire is to be published, then pursue it with that same passion.
Kim
>If writing fan fiction is helping so much in your dream of being a
>professional author, how's that been going? It's been what, a year
>since I've been here? Same question to all those espousing fan fiction
>as good practice - any sales to pro markets in the last year?
My goodness. Is that EditorSpeak for "Fuck you?"
I do not have to explain myself to you, John Ordover.
You don't know my dreams, what I'm doing, what I write, who I am, and you never
will.
I didn't submit anything professionally this year. I learned a lot from what I
wrote this year. I've got good things in the works. Good things. Things unlike
what you publish. I'll send you a courtesy copy someday, John. Autographed.
Lipstick kisses, to boot!
That's FanficWriterSpeak for 'Go to hell' by the way.
A Weird Sister
(Whether he meant it or not is a whole 'nother ball of wax bound up with some
worms that escaped from the can. <g>)
As a general rule, I do not disagree with it, either. Although I have had
writer-friends blow off creative steam in that way before. But I admit I
haven't found it to be common. <shrug> (But they later rescued most of the
story elements and reused them. So it probably wasn't a real waste. <shrug> )
(Get the feeling that there are two sides to this
issue? <g> <blush>)>>>
You are right, I did say that. It's what I got from his message.
As for those who have asked me if spending time doing various things outside
their chosen career is detrimental to that career--no it isn't.
But, if you spend all your time at the mall shopping and not practicing the
cello, if you take vacation days three or four times a week when you have
patients sitting in the chair back at your office, I ask you how long you will
remain in that chosen career.
Do you tell your potential patients that you practiced dentistry on dolls, or
do you show them your framed medical degree?
Do you go to an audition and tell the director that you've had many lovely
evenings playing music with your friends, or do you give them a resume with a
listing of your appearances and experience in the music world?
I can't submit a piece of fanfic to a professional publisher. I can't write a
professional story if my energy is going into a fanfic story.
I can practice with fanfic, I can get better at what I do so that when I do
submit that pro story, I incorporate what I'm learning.
But, one day I'm going to wake up and say--I have to stop writing fanfic. I
can justify continuing to write fanfic a hundred different ways, but when that
day arrives, I'll be happy because it means I've taken another step toward
being a professional writer.
Kim
>That sounds fair, but where do we reach them? They aren't reading or
>writing fan fiction.:)
That I happen to know is complete bullshit.
Published writers read fanfic. Published writers (and it's up to them to
discuss their lives here for Mr. Ordovers critique, so I won't mentioned names)
write fanfic.
I do not understand what you think you are accomplishing here, Mr. Ordover, but
you have now strayed away from discussing the facts of publishing into personal
grudges and factual misstatements.
I invite you to reconsider your course of action in light of how unprofessional
this looks to be carrying on a swatting match with, snort, mere fanfic writers.
Dasha K
>probably as snobbish on the subject of that kind of genre fiction as he is
>about non-published writers :
Hehehehhehe...
For Ordover, it's all about business. What am I selling? Have I targeted my
genre?
Yech. That takes all the fun out of writing. No wonder those genre novels are
about as enjoyable to read as the directions on my box of couscous.
But hey, if you're in the mood to sell, go right ahead.
Some of us are enjoying polishing our skills and reading some of the best damn
fic out there. <g>
Dasha K.
I wouldn't kick him outta bed for eatin' crackers...
Kipler
want to be published in the Star Trek novelization universe, I need to write ST
novelizations. Likewise, if ST novelization writers want to leave *that*
little world and become published in other fields, they should leave ST novels
behind and work at writing a literary novel, say, or a book about midwivery, or
a series about a dentist who solves mysteries in his spare time. After all,
every minute spent working on a ST novel is a minute that could have been spent
on the next "Jane Eyre" or "Great Gatsby."
I don't think any of us are kidding ourselves into thinking that fanfic is
going to get us published. I *do* think most of us find that writing fanfic
has improved our writing - and given us encouragement to do something we might
never have tried. A lot of us also believe - as someone earlier pointed out -
that the 'net has allowed us to grow as writers when, had we chosen the
traditional publishing route, our work would have been sitting on a giant
slushpile. Since most creative folks have to work a "real" job to pay the rent
anyway, why not work the real job, skip the torture of trying to publish, and
simply write for *love!?* The 'net lets us do that.
As far as respect goes, it's all relative. On the great ladder of writing
respect, I'm pretty sure that both fanfic and TV tie-in writers are perceived
as being waaaay down on a low rung. It's not something that bothers me.
Executive Science Teacher
A Suburban School District
http://members.aol.com/clark8g