To Mr. Ordover and The Pro Writers
jerry
just one question.
If you are a professional publisher/writer and feel that fanfic is not a
proper avenue to that end, *why are you wasting your time in this
newsgroup?*
Surely your time could be put to a purpose more in line with your
professional goals.
Mr. Ordover, to use your analogy, if you need 'cellists, why are you here
with the tuba players?
And to those who say that their primary goal is to be a pro writer and that
fanfic is a drain on that ambition, the same question: why are you
participating in fanfic at all and *especially* why are you spending your
time in this thread?
I'm here for fun and creativity, having no ambition beyond challenging
myself a little and meeting new people.
Why are you here?
jerry
Gwen
Golly, I look forward to the rationalizations that are sure to follow this
question <bg>
Gwen
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend...inside of a dog it's too
dark to read."
Groucho Marx
A Weird Sister
I may agree with John's advice, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm where he
says I need to be right now. Give me time, I'm still learning.
Just because I don't practice this doesn't mean I don't see the logic of it.
Eating fatty foods is not healthy, but I still like hamburgers.
Sugar makes me crazy, but I still crave chocolate.
Fanfic is not helping me get published professionally, but when I write fanfic,
I enjoy it. Until I arrive at that day when I can say I have to stop, I'll
write it. But until that day arrives, I'm realistic enough to know that I
can't list it as an accomplishment in a query letter.
By the way, I also need an agent. As much as I resent that fact, I know it's
true. Editors are more likely to give agented manuscripts more consideration
than those sent in cold. I'll probably look for an agent during the coming
year.
la
Remove "bat" from my name for e-mail
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~
You're my reason for reason
The step in my groove
~Carlos Santana with Rob Thomas
"Smooth" for the album "Supernatural"
A. K. Finch
<<The pro-writing vs. fanfic discussion is going 'round and 'round and I have
just one question.
If you are a professional publisher/writer and feel that fanfic is not a
proper avenue to that end, *why are you wasting your time in this
newsgroup?*>>
After I discovered, sometime back in the far reaches of junior high, that I
wanted to be a writer, I was told to "write everyday", even if it was just a
journal entry, a death threat, a long letter to a friend. I've always held to
that piece of advice, and the various professional pursuits I've undertaken are
just as integral to the clutter of my workstation (has anyone seen my cordless
phone?) as my fanfiction efforts. But I'm writing everyday. When the well
starts running dry on one, I lean to the other; repeat as desired. It's all
material, it's all practice, it all keeps the blood flowing. Who's to say the
two can't peacefully co-exist in a writer's universe?
Amanda
::+::+::+::
X-Files Fanfic: www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/7335/ficlist.html
"And if I had a choice, I'd take the voice I got, 'cause it was hard to
find..."
--Concrete Blonde, "True"
::+::+::+::
Dasha K
>
>Golly, I look forward to the rationalizations that are sure to follow this
>question <bg>
>
:::sits down with Jerry, Gwen and a nice bottle of Anchor Steam:::
But I agree. If you feel that fanfic writing and reading is eroding your
skills, why *are* you here?
Here's the door-- buh-bye. Thanks for playing!
Dasha K.
I wouldn't kick him outta bed for eatin' crackers...
hkmason
wrote:
But until that day arrives, I'm realistic enough to know that I can't
list it as an accomplishment in a query letter.
Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on several factors, including a) who
you're pitching your work to, b) what type of work you're pitching, and
c) what sort of indicators you have as proof of your success in the
world of fanfiction. Agents and editors are looking for any sign that
you will be easy to market, and evidence of prior writing successes
(even in fanfiction) can be welcome.
For example, if Lydia Bower were to want to write a mainstream romance
or women's fiction novel, you can be sure that her on-line fanclub
would make her more attractive to potential publishers. Everyone is
always on the lookout for the next "sure thing". Lydia has evidence
that she can connect with readers.
Most of us don't have such concrete factors to point to as signs of
success, and for us it would be foolish to try to explain the ins and
outs of ATXC to a hapless agent. But if an aspiring author has a
webpage full of Spooky Awards with 100,000 hits, many agents and
editors would take this as a positive sign.
I know, having been through the whole agent thing myself. It can be
hard to find the right person to represent you, but it's worth it in
the end. La is right that is you are serious about publishing, you
really need a good agent. It's pretty much the only way a publishing
company will look at your work. (Once you're in, though...they'll read
*anything*! <g>)
I love doing both my professional writing and my fanfic. It's
rewarding to make money from your work, but this community provides
instant and personal feedback that is difficult to match in the world
of big-name publishers. Am I making less money because I'm "wasting"
my time with Mulder and Scully? Yuppers.
But the same thing could be said about my on-going struggles in
graduate school. <g>
Hooked and loving it,
Hannah
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Weird Sister
>skills, why *are* you here?
>
>Here's the door-- buh-bye. Thanks for playing!
It's such a gracious community, though.
And playing is the right word. If you are looking to be a pro, time spent on
fanfic needs to decrease.
Goodbye, ATXC. (Not letting the door smack me on the way out...)
MissElise...remove the Eswoon to reply
http://www.purplepens.com/absolut
"It's a beautiful typewriter."
"Of course. It writes nothing but sensitive, intensely
felt, promsing prose." ~Holly & Paul, Breakfast at Tiffanys
Teddi Litman
A Weird Sister wrote:
> I'm here writing fanfic because I still like the X-Files.
>
> I may agree with John's advice, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm where he
> says I need to be right now. Give me time, I'm still learning.
Ok, no rush :) ... and ultimately, that's my point. When you are ready
to pursue a professional writing career, you will. Perhaps it was
in writing fanfic that made you realize you wanted to write professionally;
or maybe not. Maybe you wanted to write professionally all your life
and fanfic sidetracked you. So,do you believe the years spent
writing fanfic crippled you? Do you honestly believe you'll be a lesser
writer for it? Will you regret wasting years not taking the more direct
route? If not for fanfic, would you have been sending out novels
to publishers at 18 ... 16 ...13? Could it be at all possible
you just weren't *ready* at that point? Really, what's the big rush?
I once saw a TV movie about Nadia Kominech (<sp?> You
know, the gymnast?). The movie shows how coach Bela
Karoli came to the child doing cartwheels in the playground.
He said something like "Ah, you like cartwheels. I'm going
to teach you to do something important with it." Mr.
Ordover reminds me a bit of Karoli. Now, of course,
"women's" gymnastics is a very age specific "profession;"
a girl gets too big and she can no longer do it well.
So, at least, Karoli had a reason for recruiting
gymnasts before they were ready to commit to
making a career of it. Writing professional fiction,
as I see it anyway, is not age specific at all. In fact,
one might argue being older and having more
life experience could be beneficial. Mr. Ordover's
motivations don't make any sense to me.
Why in the world would he spend *four years*
preaching to fanfic writers? We're here in our
playground having a good time; and he insists on
trying to convince us to do something "more important"
with our hobby.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
A Weird Sister wrote:
>
>
> I learned a lot when from writing fanfic, but I have to point out something
> right now.
>
> I learned these things from people who did not write fanfic. I have been lucky
> in knowing people who are editors and professional writers. They have taken
> the time to read my stories, and through their guidance, have helped me learn
> things like POV, pacing, how to name characters (yes, there is a trick to it),
> how to begin a story, how to keep readers interested, and much more than I can
> mention here.
>
> What I got from fanfic was a venue to practice those skills. I practiced on
> characters that I knew, and I continued to make mistakes, and my friends
> continued to point those out to me. I learned from that aspect of fanfic.
Cool! So writing fanfic *wasn't* a total waste of time in your endeavor to
become a professional writer.
>
>
> What I have not learned from fanfic is how to create my own universe, how to
> create characters to populate it, and how to keep that universe going. That
> required me writing in a universe I created.
I didn't learn dentures in crown and bridge class. Weak analogy. Here's
a better one. I'm a specialist: a pediatric dentist. I didn't
learn how to calm a frightened child in dental school, or
manage an unruly one, or especially to communicate to
parents that I know what I'm doing and it is important for
*me* to establish communication with the child and
have them listen to me. I learned some of that in my
residency, and even more *after* I started practicing.
I'm still learning; every child is different ,and there is no
one set technique in behavior management. (Life experiences
help, btw.) However, I would never claim dental school was a waste of time.
It was absolutely necessary, even though a number
of the things I learned how to do in dental school
are not things I do in my current career.
I'm simplifying things a bit now; but in school I first practiced on
mannequins (Does a piece of paper really reassure you more than
the fact that I "drilled" doll teeth before I was let loose on people?<G>),
then adults, in my senior year, I treated a few unapprehensive, very well
behaved children (Yes, they do exist.<G>.) In my residency, I started
treating children exclusively. It would have been a big mistake
to have let me try to treat a child before I learned the basics of dentistry.
> It was hard to take that first
> step--I was afraid. Fanfic was easy, something I knew inside and out. What if
> I failed?
>
> Little by little, I started spending less time on fanfic and more on my own
> characters. The more I wrote in these original universes, the harder it was to
> come back to fandom. That's how it should be.
That's cool too; but that also isn't Ordovian philosophy.<G>
He doesn't believe it's a good idea to practice your basic skills
in a forum you enjoyed and in which you felt safe. He claims you wasted your
precious time writing fanfic. You should have taken a more
direct route and started writing in original universes from
the start. You should have learned more about what
editors are looking for and started submitting to publishers
as soon as possible. Life seems to be a big race, according
to John Ordover. I must ask though, if you had started
submitting work to publishers when you were younger and
less experienced and less mature, isn't there a greater possibility you
would have gotten discouraged and given up?
Teddi
Binah
The sockpuppets are everywhere!
Binah
Nestelle Berdina <gout...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991009230105...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> <<<I'm flabbergasted by that statement. Not even your weird sister? Seems
> pretty
> harsh.>>>
>
> Why are you flabbergasted by this? We learned them together through these
> people.
>
> I see this whole thing going in an endless circle.
>
> What flabbergasts me even more is the fact that ridicule seems to be the
order
> of the day.
>
> "To the uneducated, an A is just three sticks."
> --Eeyore
bugs
>
> I learned a lot when from writing fanfic, but I have to point out something
> right now.
>
> I learned these things from people who did not write fanfic. I have been lucky
> in knowing people who are editors and professional writers. They have taken
> the time to read my stories, and through their guidance, have helped me learn
> things like POV, pacing, how to name characters (yes, there is a trick to it),
> how to begin a story, how to keep readers interested, and much more than I can
> mention here.
>
> What I got from fanfic was a venue to practice those skills. I practiced on
> characters that I knew, and I continued to make mistakes, and my friends
> continued to point those out to me. I learned from that aspect of fanfic.
>
> What I have not learned from fanfic is how to create my own universe, how to
> create characters to populate it, and how to keep that universe going. That
> required me writing in a universe I created. It was hard to take that first
> step--I was afraid. Fanfic was easy, something I knew inside and out. What if
> I failed?
>
> Little by little, I started spending less time on fanfic and more on my own
> characters. The more I wrote in these original universes, the harder it was to
> come back to fandom. That's how it should be.
>
> I can't stay here forever, and I shouldn't want to. You should know when to
> leave if you want to write professionally.
>
> la
How interesting. I'm going at it the other way around.
I'd been working on my novel about a year when I came to fanfic.
Amazingly, my writing mentor suggested that it would help my writing
if I found some set characters and a general universe to write in,
freeing myself up from sweating absolutely all the details and just
concentrate on my technique. That very day I had posted my first
story to this ng and I saw his suggestion as a sign.
I notice now when I work on my RL writing, it flows much more
effectively. I get where I want to be quicker and with better
results.
I've been doing some rewriting of earlier work and I'm amazed at how
much my writing has improved these past few months. I give a lot of
credit to the help and example of writers and readers on this ng.
I look at fanfiction as the place I can experiment and push myself.
Every project I complete gives me more confidence and some new tools
to work with on my technique. Of course, we take our RL writing much
too seriously. It's the single most important thing in our lives. How
wonderful to have a place where I can come have fun! And, quite
sneakily, I've become a much better writer.
Another fanfic writer was telling me that she wouldn't have had the
confidence to leave her job to try freelance writing without her
success in the fanfic world. Technique I might have been able to
learn somewhere else, but confidence? You can't learn that, you have
to acquire it.--bugs
bugs
Meg
Teddi Litman wrote:
> Don't you know Heidi? Every writer wants to be published. Any
> writer who claims he/she doesn't want to be published and
> offers valid and true reasons he/she feels that way (such as
> the venture is life consuming and potentially heartbreakingly
> discouraging and <gasp> not as respectable as the recruiter
> insists it is) is merely suffering "sour grapes."
Thanks for explaining it for me, Teddi! Here I thought I was just
scribbling for the fun and friendship of it all, but now I realize - I'm
just a bitter old...
...wait a minute...
Meg
GeoRed
(Dasha K) writes:
>>>Why are you here?
>>
>>Golly, I look forward to the rationalizations that are sure to follow this
>>question <bg>
>>
>
>:::sits down with Jerry, Gwen and a nice bottle of Anchor Steam:::
Um......can I have beer too? <g>
Heidi
::::::::with head in hands, rocking slowly::::::::::
"It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter."
<Mulder: He's not just lean.......he's cuisine.>
A Weird Sister
pursue a professional writing career, you will. Perhaps it was in writing
fanfic that made you realize you wanted to write professionally; or maybe not.
Maybe you wanted to write professionally all your life and fanfic sidetracked
you. So,do you believe the years spent writing fanfic crippled you? Do you
honestly believe you'll be a lesser writer for it? Will you regret wasting
years not taking the more direct route? If not for fanfic, would you have been
sending out novels to publishers at 18 ... 16 ...13? Could it be at all
possible you just weren't *ready* at that point? Really, what's the big
rush?>>>
I learned a lot when from writing fanfic, but I have to point out something
right now.
I learned these things from people who did not write fanfic. I have been lucky
in knowing people who are editors and professional writers. They have taken
the time to read my stories, and through their guidance, have helped me learn
things like POV, pacing, how to name characters (yes, there is a trick to it),
how to begin a story, how to keep readers interested, and much more than I can
mention here.
What I got from fanfic was a venue to practice those skills. I practiced on
characters that I knew, and I continued to make mistakes, and my friends
continued to point those out to me. I learned from that aspect of fanfic.
What I have not learned from fanfic is how to create my own universe, how to
create characters to populate it, and how to keep that universe going. That
required me writing in a universe I created. It was hard to take that first
step--I was afraid. Fanfic was easy, something I knew inside and out. What if
I failed?
Little by little, I started spending less time on fanfic and more on my own
characters. The more I wrote in these original universes, the harder it was to
come back to fandom. That's how it should be.
I can't stay here forever, and I shouldn't want to. You should know when to
leave if you want to write professionally.
la
Gwen
>I learned a lot when from writing fanfic, but I have to point out something
>right now.
>
>I learned these things from people who did not write fanfic.
I'm flabbergasted by that statement. Not even your weird sister? Seems pretty
harsh.
Gwen
A Weird Sister
pretty
harsh.>>>
We learned these things together. Neither of us came into fanfic knowing these
things.
What flabbergast me more is that ridicule seems to be the order of the day.
A Weird Sister
I can only say the same thing so many ways. You can only find so many things
to challenge me on each time.
We are at an impasse. I have my beliefs, you have yours. Neither of us should
be wrong or right for them.
Dasha K
>Um......can I have beer too? <g>
You should know that there's *always* beer for you, darling!
:::tosses a frosty one to Heidi:::
GeoRed
>Date: Sun, 10 October 1999 12:19 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19991010001905...@ng-cl1.aol.com>
>Heidi wrote:
>
>>Um......can I have beer too? <g>
>
>You should know that there's *always* beer for you, darling!
>
>:::tosses a frosty one to Heidi:::
ALL RIIIIGHT! Things are looking up. <g>
BoneTree
make money from your work, but this community provides instant and personal
feedback that is difficult to match in the world of big-name publishers >>
I'm new here, but thought I might comment on this as well....
I am a professional writer, as well, have an agent, already published, bla bla
bla, spend half my life answering to other people about my work, and I just
recently started writing fanfiction a) because I love the X-Files; and b)
because I needed something outside of the professional writing world, something
that was able to reach people without having to go through the strict editorial
process of everything else that write.
Admittedly, I used to be rather judgemental about fanfiction as well, until I
actually posted something and encountered the community that reads it. That
taught me a couple of things. The first was that I needed to "reach back into
my past when I used to have an open mind" ("The Big Chill") and just let
writing be enjoyable for myself and others. The second was that fanfiction
meets a need for its writers and readers that the professional community --
including the writers of the show! -- can't seem to meet. It's an truly
audience-centered genre, currently spared what happens to most "professional"
forms of writing (and to most writers) -- they become a commodity. Fanfiction
allows its writers to remain, I think, outside of that.
For what it's worth...
Bone
John J. Ordover
wrote:
>On 09 Oct 1999 22:19:43 GMT laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister)
>wrote:
>
>But until that day arrives, I'm realistic enough to know that I can't
>list it as an accomplishment in a query letter.
>
>Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on several factors, including a) who
>you're pitching your work to, b) what type of work you're pitching, and
>c) what sort of indicators you have as proof of your success in the
>world of fanfiction. Agents and editors are looking for any sign that
>you will be easy to market, and evidence of prior writing successes
>(even in fanfiction) can be welcome.
NO. If you ignore anything else I say, take this to heart: writing
fan fiction is -never- welcome as a credit. It marks you as
unprofessional.
>
>For example, if Lydia Bower were to want to write a mainstream romance
>or women's fiction novel, you can be sure that her on-line fanclub
>would make her more attractive to potential publishers. Everyone is
>always on the lookout for the next "sure thing". Lydia has evidence
>that she can connect with readers.
Not if she's writing in someone else's universe. All she'll be
showing is that she has no respect for other author's copyrights,
which is NOT a professional plus. If she's writing her own original
stuff and attracting an audience, that's significant, but it's not fan
fiction .
>
>Most of us don't have such concrete factors to point to as signs of
>success, and for us it would be foolish to try to explain the ins and
>outs of ATXC to a hapless agent. But if an aspiring author has a
>webpage full of Spooky Awards with 100,000 hits, many agents and
>editors would take this as a positive sign.
No, they wouldn't.
>
>I know, having been through the whole agent thing myself. It can be
>hard to find the right person to represent you, but it's worth it in
>the end. La is right that is you are serious about publishing, you
>really need a good agent. It's pretty much the only way a publishing
>company will look at your work. (Once you're in, though...they'll read
>*anything*! <g>)
Untrue, especially in the non-media SF field. Write for the
magazines, Analog, Asimov's, and F&SF, and no agent is needed. Once
you have those credits down, send a novel directly to an editor and
they'll read it. Oh, probably not as quickly as if you had an agent,
but they will read it.
>
>I love doing both my professional writing and my fanfic. It's
>rewarding to make money from your work, but this community provides
>instant and personal feedback that is difficult to match in the world
>of big-name publishers. Am I making less money because I'm "wasting"
>my time with Mulder and Scully? Yuppers.
Instant and personal don't add up to -professional-.
>
>But the same thing could be said about my on-going struggles in
>graduate school. <g>
>
>Hooked and loving it,
>Hannah
>
>
>
>--
>Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
>Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
>
Executive Editor
The Star Trek Novels
Pocket Books
www.startrekbooks.com
John J. Ordover
>I'd been working on my novel about a year when I came to fanfic.
>Amazingly, my writing mentor suggested that it would help my writing
At this point I have to ask, how much pro fiction has your "writing
mentor" published? If the answer is "none" then you're not getting
the right guidance.
John J. Ordover
><< I love doing both my professional writing and my fanfic. It's rewarding to
>make money from your work, but this community provides instant and personal
>feedback that is difficult to match in the world of big-name publishers >>
>
>I'm new here, but thought I might comment on this as well....
>
>I am a professional writer, as well, have an agent, already published, bla bla
>bla, spend half my life answering to other people about my work, and I just
>recently started writing fanfiction a) because I love the X-Files; and b)
>because I needed something outside of the professional writing world, something
>that was able to reach people without having to go through the strict editorial
>process of everything else that write.
Just out of curiosity, what have you written and where has it been
published, and was it fiction?
Also, let me point out that you say you like writing fan fiction
because there are no editorial standards... so for someone who wants
to get started selling fiction, who has to figure out how to survive
the "strict editorial process" fan fiction is not the best venue.
>
>Admittedly, I used to be rather judgemental about fanfiction as well, until I
>actually posted something and encountered the community that reads it. That
>taught me a couple of things. The first was that I needed to "reach back into
>my past when I used to have an open mind" ("The Big Chill") and just let
>writing be enjoyable for myself and others. The second was that fanfiction
>meets a need for its writers and readers that the professional community --
>including the writers of the show! -- can't seem to meet. It's an truly
>audience-centered genre, currently spared what happens to most "professional"
>forms of writing (and to most writers) -- they become a commodity. Fanfiction
>allows its writers to remain, I think, outside of that.
>
>For what it's worth...
>
>Bone
Executive Editor
Sheryl Martin
k> On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 21:09:28 -0400, Teddi Litman
k> <dayb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
k>
k>
k> >Why in the world would he spend *four years*
k> >preaching to fanfic writers? We're here in our
k> >playground having a good time; and he insists on
k> >trying to convince us to do something "more important"
k> >with our hobby.
k>
k> My guess would be that somewhere in his head he realises that what he
k> edits is no more enduring, and possibly less, than the best of what
k> goes on in here. He probably realised that he runs a sausage factory,
k> and I wouldn't be surprised if people higher up the literary food
k> chain treat him with the same kind of attitude he treats us with. I'm
k> enough of a classical snob to actually believe that I have a claim to
k> the high ground because I'm write when I want to, stop when I want to,
k> and me wanting is based on knowing what's coming off the keyboard is
k> good--as opposed to schlepping out the rotting corpses of
k> Roddenberry's goofy TV show and making them dance in a very small room
k> because I gotta pay the bills--all day, every day, over and over,
k> until the end of freaking time...
I think what we have here is just different interpretations of how and why
anyone writes - and reads, for that matter...
having worked IN the publishing world as an editorial secretary did one
thing for me - convince me to never have a novel published professionally
and be one of the whores of the publisher...
without an agent you sit in the slush piles until someone like me puts the
stamps you sent in back on the return envelope and attaches a form letter
and puts it back in the mail.
with an agent (who usually picks you up more of who you know/blow, not
your writing skill...) he/she smoozes you out and about and then they hand
you over to editors who will, without any art at all, hack your story to
shreds based on studies of what "the market" demands and wants - not if
it's a good story - what the demographics say it wants...
VERY few writers survive on writing alone - Collins and King are part of
the elite who get multi-book contracts signed; but for the rest of them by
the time you pay off the initial publishing cost there's little in
residuals for the writer to live off of - and usually the forward is less
than $50,000; hardly a lot to live on for years between publications...
if you write with expectations of being published and want to walk into
the brothel of "official" publishing; go ahead - but be prepared to have
your work critiqued and edited by people who don't have much of a creative
spark other than having the right English degrees and the right friends
who got them the editor's job.
the Internet now affords anyone the ability to self-publish - far beyond
the zines that have been producing quality work for years; and that format
hasn't yet to feel any effects of the "organised" publishing world's
contempt for fanfiction.
it depends on what you want - to follow what you want to do and love; or
be forced into a system that will grind you down creative and force you to
hand over any control of your work to others who are definitely less
qualified to edit and critique your work than the butcher at the corner...
having letters after your name does not qualify you as a good editor -
we've all read books with horrendous passages and/or plots that shouldn't
have even gotten past the front desk, much less published - but the
editor/agent had their agenda, and everyone makes money...
except the author...
shrug...
do what you want writing and enjoy it - but realise that you'll never feel
as good about your writing if you try to sell it professionally versus
keeping control over it in here or any forum of it's kind...
jmo...
;-)
been there, done that... wrote the fanfic...
*************************
"Heart of a warrior, mind of a fool... soul of a romantic..." - Jackie St.
George
*************************
Dragon's Lair - www.geocities.com/area51/chamber/7976
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
John J. Ordover
>
>VERY few writers survive on writing alone - Collins and King are part of
>the elite who get multi-book contracts signed; but for the rest of them by
>the time you pay off the initial publishing cost there's little in
>residuals for the writer to live off of - and usually the forward is less
>than $50,000; hardly a lot to live on for years between publications...
Once again, your misuse of common publishing terms makes me question
your true knowledge of publishing. The term is "advance" not
"forward." Writers get "royalties" not "residuals" (residuals is a
Hollywood term) and aren't charged for the printing costs except at
vanity press publishers who are pretty much just printing what you pay
them to print. Might as well just go down to Kinkos.
Average advances for starting authors are actually much less than 50K
most of the time. And to comment on your other stuff, most editors
have college degress but not necessarily English degrees and rarely
advanced degrees. The salaries in publishing are too low to attract
people who don't care very much about what they do.
Executive Editor
Sheryl Martin
o> Once again, your misuse of common publishing terms makes me question
o> your true knowledge of publishing. The term is "advance" not
o> "forward." Writers get "royalties" not "residuals" (residuals is a
o> Hollywood term) and aren't charged for the printing costs except at
o> vanity press publishers who are pretty much just printing what you pay
o> them to print. Might as well just go down to Kinkos.
o>
well, those were the terms used at Penguin Books, Canada in 1985 - give
them a call and they'll verify that I did work there as an editorial
secretary, since you seem unconvinced that I did work in the field...
which is a nice way of calling me a liar.
and no, I didn't intend to put the idea forth that the author pays for the
printing - but the company does, and will not pay out "royalties" to the
author UNTIL the cost of printing is paid off...
meanwhile, everyone else gets paid their usual salary; irregardless...
o> Average advances for starting authors are actually much less than 50K
o> most of the time. And to comment on your other stuff, most editors
o> have college degress but not necessarily English degrees and rarely
o> advanced degrees. The salaries in publishing are too low to attract
o> people who don't care very much about what they do.
exactly my point - so what makes YOU, an editor, any more qualified to
judge and decide what's fit to print than anyone else?
I've been through writing courses in college and taught by self-described
editors and poets and screenwriters who used it as nothing more than a
forum to illustrate their own sellouts to a system that then they turn
around and try to enforce upon others. I got the diploma and then saw in
the real world that there IS no true talent to getting published; only who
you know and blow and who you suck up to - NOT your skill...
I saw a lot better stuff in those slush piles than I expected - and being
told to toss it if it didn't come pre-approved by a certain literary
agency or a specific agent was a learning experience.
You, sir, are one of the whores who encourage good writers to sell out to
what YOU perceive the public wants - through your studies and your surveys
and your patronizing rants about what you want to push on us - and the
majority of people buy it because they know of nothing better...
ask yourself this - if the fanfic here or in other ngs were so much worse
than published stories; wouldn't they curl up and die after a few
months/years? why would you gather an audience for crap; unless you
actually were giving the reader what they wanted?
Lucas has decided to give fanfic writers a forum for their outlets as I
noted in a previous post - yet you keep postulating that your way is the
only way, and this is simply not so...
you speak for only yourself and Pocket Books, as is evident in your sig
which is intended, obviously, to intimidate others - but having worked
with your ilk, it does nothing for me but invoke sympathy mixed with anger
that you would try and preach to those who don't want or need your input -
you are not the only publisher out there and as is evident with the SW
book, not the only one online.
maybe the series "Action" is more real than we thought... chuckle...
jmo - your mileage might vary...
John J. Ordover
>
>and no, I didn't intend to put the idea forth that the author pays for the
>printing - but the company does, and will not pay out "royalties" to the
>author UNTIL the cost of printing is paid off...
Absolutely untrue.
Payments are made on the basis of how many copies are sold, as a
percentage of the cover price.
Here's how it works (in round numbers for simplicity's sake).
Let's say I give you a contract for a book that includes a $10,000
advance against royalties, and a 10 percent of the cover price royalty
on each copy sold. And let's say the cover price is $10.
So you've been given $10,000 in advance against future royalties that
come out to $1 a copy.
If the book sells 10,000 copies then you'll see no further money -
you've "earned out your advance."
If the book sells 20K copies, you'll see another $10K. And so on.
If the book sells only 5,000 copies, the publisher writes off the
extra advance paid to you. They don't ask for it back (although they
may not be interested in doing another book with you if you don't earn
out your advance).
Now, it may well be that the publsiher needs to sell 50,000 copies of
your book to get back it's production costs, which can be in the
hundreds of thousands of dollars. But that's not important to the
moneys owed you on this book - they will be paid according to the
number of copies sold.
And thats how it really works.
no_...@no_spam.net
>>VERY few writers survive on writing alone - Collins and King are part of
>>the elite who get multi-book contracts signed; but for the rest of them by
>>the time you pay off the initial publishing cost there's little in
>>residuals for the writer to live off of - and usually the forward is less
>>than $50,000; hardly a lot to live on for years between publications...
ITA. I make well over $100K US at my profession (which is extremely
high tech and rrequires at least a MS degree to do, so not some
fluke...) at which I only work 30 hrs a week. I do the fanfic for
fun. I would never ever give up my real job to take a paycut (ie no
pay) and also I might add, my work makes a contribution to society
(save lives) and that is also very important to me. So I have the
best of both worlds. Well compensated at a job I adore, and enough
free time to indulge in this creativity.
So people like Ordover criticizng fan fic are just full of it.
GeoRed
>Date: Sun, 10 October 1999 11:38 AM EDT
>
>On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:27:33 GMT, ord...@aol.com (John J. Ordover)
>wrote:
>
>>Once again, your misuse of common publishing terms makes me question
>
>Well, here's where his arrogance begins to get the best of him in his
>insistance that he is always right. "Forward" and "residuals" are the
>common terms used in publishing in England, and, I expect, many other
>places outside the U.S.
Not only that, but he entirely missed the major point of Sheryl's post. And I
thought they were good points. Not so much disagreeing with John as pointing
out why trying to get published may be less than desirable for some people.
The benefits/pitfalls of getting published versus the benefits of self
publishing on the internet.
>I think the problem with this whole argument is all a matter of tone.
>Much of what Ordover says makes sense logically, but because it is
>presented as absolutes and with such a superior attitude, few will
>swallow it willingly.
Absolutely. I am not a writer by trade, and I have no desire to be. I could
actually see merit in both sides of this argument. But, as they say, tone is
everything. When the tone starts to take a bad turn, you lose me regardless of
the validity of your position.
bugs
>
> >I'd been working on my novel about a year when I came to fanfic.
> >Amazingly, my writing mentor suggested that it would help my writing
>
> At this point I have to ask, how much pro fiction has your "writing
> mentor" published? If the answer is "none" then you're not getting
> the right guidance.
>
Sir, I can only say...you walked into that one. Ladies,and couple of
gentlemen, are any of us surprised that a man this heavy-handed in his
approach would be this conceited?
Trust me, I would not be posting such remarks in the company of
women(and a couple of guys) this sharp if I wasn't confident.
Actually, I don't want to make it seem as though I've got some high
and mighty attitude with my fellow fanfic writers. I certainly don't.
I don't care about credentials. I care that my mentor is able to
communicate with me and all of his advice has been valuable. But John
needs to be reassured, so please avert your eyes.
No, sir, unfortunately, my mentor has not pursued a successful career
in genre fiction. He has kept himself busy writing hardcover
mainstream novels, writing screenplays, teaching and mentoring
novelists to New York publication, writing scholarly works, immersing
himself in the Pop Art world, working with artists such as John Cage.
I could go on, but I'm sure you stopped reading at genre fiction.
I have never spoken to you directly and I have no desire to do so.
Please go away, little man. ---bugs
Diana Battis
>noted in a previous post - yet you keep postulating that your way is the
>only way, and this is simply not so...
>
What is the release date for this? I'm very eager to read it. I'll bet it's a
cut above the usual genre dreck.
Diana
Visit my X-Files Fanfic at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault4090/TheXFilesFic.html
Teddi Litman
GeoRed wrote in message
>
>Not only that, but he entirely missed the major point of Sheryl's post.
And I
>thought they>>places outside the U.S. were good points. Not so much
disagreeing with John as pointing
>out why trying to get published may be less than desirable for some people.
>The benefits/pitfalls of getting published versus the benefits of self
>publishing on the internet.
>
Don't you know Heidi? Every writer wants to be published. Any
writer who claims he/she doesn't want to be published and
offers valid and true reasons he/she feels that way (such as
the venture is life consuming and potentially heartbreakingly
discouraging and <gasp> not as respectable as the recruiter
insists it is) is merely suffering "sour grapes."
Teddi
KassXF
If Mr. Ordover feels compelled to do this every six to ten months, I wish
people would stop feeding his joy in it. The repetitive nature of his
argument, while it may have merit, is worse than one of the history professors
I had in college. I used to have to literally pinch myself to stay awake.
kazoot
...the clue phone is ringing, don't let your answering machine get it....
bugs
away! (Of course, I had to respond to one of his posts. I'm a bad,
bad girl.)
He must be receiving some pleasure from spending the better part of
three days responding to ever post with his name attached.
Speaking of which, I wish to apologize to this group. I believe his
presence is my fault. In a response to a post of mine, someone by the
name of celebworship brought up his name. This obviously set off his
Batphone and he was here within the day. As it was, celeb wasn't
dissing him, merely said that she/he didn't want to see the discussion
take a turn to a previous Odover thread. However, I do find it
interesting that there was no reason whatsoever to bring up this
obviously inflammatory subject in his/her response and celebworship
seems to have slipped back below the surface.
Please, in the future, if he must be brought up in a discussion, can
we come up with a sockpuppet name for this man so his Diss-o-detector
won't be set off? ---bugs
Duggmarie
>From: sma...@goodmedia.com (Sheryl Martin)
>Date: Sun, 10 October 1999 09:18 AM EDT
>Message-id: <fc.000f47940073c3cc00...@goodmedia.com>
>the elite who get multi-book contracts signed; but for the rest of them by
>the time you pay off the initial publishing cost there's little in
>residuals for the writer to live off of - and usually the forward is less
>than $50,000; hardly a lot to live on for years between publications...
>
>the brothel of "official" publishing; go ahead - but be prepared to have
>your work critiqued and edited by people who don't have much of a creative
>spark other than having the right English degrees and the right friends
>who got them the editor's job.
>
>the Internet now affords anyone the ability to self-publish - far beyond
>the zines that have been producing quality work for years; and that format
>hasn't yet to feel any effects of the "organised" publishing world's
>contempt for fanfiction.
>
>it depends on what you want - to follow what you want to do and love; or
>be forced into a system that will grind you down creative and force you to
>hand over any control of your work to others who are definitely less
>qualified to edit and critique your work than the butcher at the corner...
>
>having letters after your name does not qualify you as a good editor -
>we've all read books with horrendous passages and/or plots that shouldn't
>have even gotten past the front desk, much less published - but the
>editor/agent had their agenda, and everyone makes money...
>
>except the author...
>
>shrug...
>
>do what you want writing and enjoy it - but realise that you'll never feel
>as good about your writing if you try to sell it professionally versus
>keeping control over it in here or any forum of it's kind...
>
>jmo...
>
>
>
>been there, done that... wrote the fanfic...
>*************************
>"Heart of a warrior, mind of a fool... soul of a romantic..." - Jackie St.
>George
>*************************
>Dragon's Lair - www.geocities.com/area51/chamber/7976
>
See.............there's more...........I don't know what this guy said, but
people are stirring.............M
Dr. Ambress
Ambress
--
Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
--Robert Frost
bugs wrote in message <38010A8B...@my-deja.com>...
<snip>
>
>Please, in the future, if he must be brought up in a discussion, can
>we come up with a sockpuppet name for this man so his Diss-o-detector
>won't be set off? ---bugs
>
<snip>
Kim
>Please, in the future, if he must be brought up in a discussion, can
>we come up with a sockpuppet name for this man so his Diss-o-detector
>won't be set off? ---bugs
I propose "Ordure" as his nickname. So appropos.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.simplenet.com <------ Note New URL
"Did I look adorable?" Mitch Pileggi, Season 4 Gag Reels :-)
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
setm...@pacbell.net
> And thats how it really works.
>
So.... who's doing *your* job while you're busy with the self-imposed
task of enlightening those of us who are here for nothing more than
the enjoyment of reasonably entertaining fiction, be it writing or
reading it?
Just curious.
SetMedic
Who has no illusions about possibly selling a book - and Mr. O is a
shining example of why I have no interest in trying.
Executive Buyer
(to judge by my checkbook balance in college)
of The Star Trek Novels
(before they bored me to tears with formulaic writing)
Pocket Books
(Nice company, have met with a few people there)
www.startrekbooks.com
(now THIS truly impresses me)
bugs
>
> Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
>
> ::::snip of some immortal words::::
>
> >Plus, you never know when Pocket might land the X-Files line....
> >
> >so don't go burning any bridges, folks!
>
> Would those bridges be in Madison County? <g>
>
> Bwahahahahhahhaahhaahha.
>
> *~*~*~*~*~*
> Kim
You realize you've all but volunteered to write the Bridges/XF
crossover to end all crossovers? I can see it now....Rustic!Mulder in
his big ol' pickup...Simple!Scully in her little cotten
draaassss...waiting for a REAL man to come take her someplace she
ain't never beeeaaannn...if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
--bugs
bugs
>
> << Rustic!Mulder in his big ol' pickup...Simple!Scully in her little cotten
> draaassss.. >>
>
> little cotten drasssss...
>
> But the bridge can stay.
Might be something in there. I'm seeing it! I like to see an
assertive Scully, and sweeping Simple!Mulder away in her rattlin' ol'
pickup would certainly fit tha baaaalllleee....oh, the luv, the
agony!!--bugs
bugs
>
> Bugs suggested:
>
> >You realize you've all but volunteered to write the Bridges/XF
> >his big ol' pickup...Simple!Scully in her little cotten
> >ain't never beeeaaannn...if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
> >--bugs
>
> Bridges book, and I'd rather fuck Flukeman, thank you very much.
>
> I read that book in its entirety in a hospital waiting room while my friend was
> giving birth, and I don't know who was in more pain.
>
> But, Lord, it'd almost be worth it to reread that immortal scene where the
> lovers are Doing The Beautiful Thing and he says "I'm the peregrine and the
> <something else> and all the highways of the world!"
>
> If a man is constructing that kind of sentence during sex, someone's not doing
> something right.
>
> But you know, it sold a lot of copies. And that makes some people happy. Just
> not the readers. Well, ones with sense.
I hadn't heard of the thing, but a friend recced it because of our
mutal interest in photography. I think I made it as far as page 12.
Gave it to my aunt, who wickedly smirked at me and said, 'ooo...this
is supposed to be sexy.' Maybe if you were married to my uncle it
would be, but thanks, no thanks.
However, there's nothing to say a fine piece of fanfic couldn't come
out of this! Or not...bugs (still tossing around the image of
Rustic!Scully, with an Irish accent, pulling up in her pickup into
Simple!Mulder's driveway among the cornfields.)
dejag...@my-deja.com
bugs...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Please, in the future, if he must be brought up in a discussion, can
> we come up with a sockpuppet name for this man so his Diss-o-detector
> won't be set off? ---bugs
I propose that the word "Ordover" be recognized as an official a.x.t.c.
cussword, thus necessitating asterisks. <BEG>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
bugs
"Dr. Ambress" <Ambr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> How about Odoriffic?
>
> Ambress
Uh...when I say it(Yes, my lips move when I read and write, what about
it?) I spit all over the screen! Or was that the idea?? -- bugs
http://plaza.v-wave.com/Tara/bugs/index.html
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>My guess would be that somewhere in his head he realises that what he
>edits is no more enduring, and possibly less, than the best of what
>goes on in here.
Nah, despite his disclaimers, he's busily checking out the writing and
the names. There are a *few* folks in here I'd like to see go
pro--besides those who've already indicated they have a pro interest,
there's others such as Brandon Ray who've got pro potential.
Plus, you never know when Pocket might land the X-Files line....
so don't go burning any bridges, folks!
jrw
Kim
::::snip of some immortal words::::
>Plus, you never know when Pocket might land the X-Files line....
>
>so don't go burning any bridges, folks!
Would those bridges be in Madison County? <g>
Bwahahahahhahhaahhaahha.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Yahtzee63
disappointed if she doesn't. Then again, maybe an Irish accent would be more
apropos --
Yahtzee
Kipler
No, no... It's Rustic!Scully in her big ol' pickup... SimpleMulder in HIS
little cotten drasssss...
But the bridge can stay.
--Kipler
Kim
>You realize you've all but volunteered to write the Bridges/XF
>crossover to end all crossovers? I can see it now....Rustic!Mulder in
>his big ol' pickup...Simple!Scully in her little cotten
>draaassss...waiting for a REAL man to come take her someplace she
>ain't never beeeaaannn...if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
>--bugs
Oh God no. If I did that, I'd have to refresh myself on the contents of that
Bridges book, and I'd rather fuck Flukeman, thank you very much.
I read that book in its entirety in a hospital waiting room while my friend was
giving birth, and I don't know who was in more pain.
But, Lord, it'd almost be worth it to reread that immortal scene where the
lovers are Doing The Beautiful Thing and he says "I'm the peregrine and the
<something else> and all the highways of the world!"
If a man is constructing that kind of sentence during sex, someone's not doing
something right.
But you know, it sold a lot of copies. And that makes some people happy. Just
not the readers. Well, ones with sense.
Tracey
;)
Tracey
bugs <bugs...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:38015EE6...@my-deja.com...
> Kim wrote:
> >
> > Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
> >
> > ::::snip of some immortal words::::
> >
> > >Plus, you never know when Pocket might land the X-Files line....
> > >
> > >so don't go burning any bridges, folks!
> >
> > Would those bridges be in Madison County? <g>
> >
> > Bwahahahahhahhaahhaahha.
> >
> > *~*~*~*~*~*
> > Kim
>
ORDOVER
>in genre fiction. He has kept himself busy writing hardcover
>mainstream novels, writing screenplays, teaching and mentoring
Writing them or having them published? If he's been writing and hasn't been
published, then there's something he doens' t know.
John Ordover
Executive Editor
Star Trek Fiction
Pocket Books
For more Trek Book Info:
www.startrekbooks.com
ORDOVER
Because once in a while someone gets it, and moves in the right direction
toward a professional writing career.
Oh, and to shoot down a fantasy - no pro editor finds writers in fanfiction.
It's hard enough to find the time to read the ms. that have come into the
office.:)
And as to my job as an editor, and why I'm qualified to judge writing - it's my
job to pick writing that -will sell-. I've never made any bones about that.
If I don't do my job, then they'll fire me and find someone who -can- pick
books that sell (and I don't just do Trek novels, but thrillers, fantasy novels
like THE BURNING CITY by Niven/Pournelle that'll be out in March).
The question anyone wanting to be a pro writer needs to answer is "What can I
do to convince an editor that my book will be worth taking the risk of adding a
black mark to his/her career on?"
The Bridges of Madison county is a great example - the editor and publisher who
chose to go with it are geniuses, because it sold MILLIONS of copies in large
part, I think, because it keyed into a specific fantasy of its target market,
and also because it had a cover and a title that made men comfortable with
reading it on the train. It was rejected by many editors and publishers who
didn't understand its appeal.
You think the writing in Bridges was terrible. I may even agree with you. Yet
the author sold the book to a publisher by using these simple rules:
1) Write it
2) Send it out
3) If it comes back, keep sending it out.
Remember, except in tie-in fiction, there's a lot more than one editor out
there - my best story to date, which picked up Bram Stoker award
recommendations and has been collected into two anthologies now, including a
Best of Horror antho, sold to the -sixth- editor who saw it.
Also, here's a thought: If you are annoyed by my posts, stop reading them.
Problem solved.
finn...@hotmail.com
Dr. Ambress
Macmillan (now owned by Simon & Schuster, I believe) for the clothbound, and
Pocket Books for the paperbacks! Small world.
Ambress
--
Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
--Robert Frost
ORDOVER wrote in message <19991011073649...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>No, sir, unfortunately, my mentor has not pursued a successful career
>>in genre fiction. He has kept himself busy writing hardcover
>>mainstream novels, writing screenplays, teaching and mentoring
>
>Writing them or having them published? If he's been writing and hasn't
been
>published, then there's something he doens' t know.
>
Kim
about it. Ewww. Well, let's press on.
John Ordover said:
>The question anyone wanting to be a pro writer needs to answer is "What
>can I
>do to convince an editor that my book will be worth taking the risk of adding
>a
>black mark to his/her career on?"
Send a thank you note on nice notepaper?
A tin of Danish cookies at Christmas?
How about a REALLY spectacular blow job?
Oh dear, then we come to this. I'm editorializing (Disclaimer: I'm not a real
editor!) with the capital letters. It soon will be clear why.
>
>The Bridges of Madison county is a great example - the EDITOR and PUBLISHER
>who
>chose to go with it are geniuses, because it SOLD MILLIONS of copies in
>large
>part, I think, because it keyed into a specific fantasy of its TARGET MARKET,
>and also because it had a COVER and a TITLE that made ***MEN*** comfortable
with
>reading it on the train.
>
>You think the writing in Bridges was terrible. I may even agree with you.
But lack the cojones to say so, preferring to concentrate on money, power and
fame for editors and publishers, and the appeal to men, because men are more
important than women.
Kim
Executive, uh, Pajama Wearer
It's All Fiction
Tuck-in-Your-Bra Books
No notepaper, no tin of cookies, no chapstick.
www.notcapable.com
stormlantern
ord...@aol.com (John J. Ordover) wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:06:14 GMT, "hkmason" <hkm...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On 09 Oct 1999 22:19:43 GMT laliz...@aol.combat (A Weird Sister)
> >wrote:
> >
> >But until that day arrives, I'm realistic enough to know that I can't
> >list it as an accomplishment in a query letter.
> >
> >Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on several factors, including a) who
> >you're pitching your work to, b) what type of work you're pitching,
and
> >c) what sort of indicators you have as proof of your success in the
> >world of fanfiction. Agents and editors are looking for any sign
that
> >you will be easy to market, and evidence of prior writing successes
> >(even in fanfiction) can be welcome.
>
> NO. If you ignore anything else I say, take this to heart: writing
> fan fiction is -never- welcome as a credit. It marks you as
> unprofessional.
Times change, friend. You never know - maybe very soon, merely having
one's words appear on a printed (paper) page isn't going to be the one
and only criteria for successful authorship. This is the cyber age,
after all; more and more people are reading the net rather than the
newspaper. Who's to say, really, that someday soon a bard of the
bandwidth isn't going to be considered as legit as a paperback writer?
What really matters is how big an audience you draw, correct? If it's
money you're talking about, well, maybe that's not happening now, but I
would gladly pay to read Lydia Bower and Anne Haynes and other authors
of XF fanfiction. Their stuff is far better than the official XF
authors, particularly Kevin J. Anderson, IMO. The day may come when some
enterprising author with a good track record and name recognition might
just do that - charge for entry into their webpage and fanfic archive.
Why not? I'd rather drop twenty bucks for any of Spearmynt's XF series
than on that hardback rip-off "Skin" 1013 had the nerve to call an
"official" X-Files novel. Yeesh.
>
> >
> >For example, if Lydia Bower were to want to write a mainstream
romance
> >or women's fiction novel, you can be sure that her on-line fanclub
> >would make her more attractive to potential publishers. Everyone is
> >always on the lookout for the next "sure thing". Lydia has evidence
> >that she can connect with readers.
>
> Not if she's writing in someone else's universe. All she'll be
> showing is that she has no respect for other author's copyrights,
> which is NOT a professional plus.
I know what you're saying here. But to me, it's more "professional" to
respect another person's property enough to do the characters justice,
than to simply scrawl out some shallow drivel, take the money and run -
which is what the aforementioned Anderson is doing, IMO. And to be
doing it for love's sake instead of for a buck - if that doesn't say
"author" to you, fine - there are a lot of authors out there who aren't
writers. But the creation of such wonderful work as "Six Degrees of
Separation", done without the impetus of money but with the deepest of
affection and respect for both the creator and characters of "The
X-Files" - work that also happens to be extremely well-written - well,
that should say something to you. To me it says "artist". And it'd be
nice if an artist's work was published once in a while, by way of
novelty, you know?
>
> >
> >Most of us don't have such concrete factors to point to as signs of
> >success, and for us it would be foolish to try to explain the ins and
> >outs of ATXC to a hapless agent. But if an aspiring author has a
> >webpage full of Spooky Awards with 100,000 hits, many agents and
> >editors would take this as a positive sign.
>
> No, they wouldn't.
If that's true, then they're behind the times and losing more ground
every minute. Oh, well - maybe it's not that surprising that the
publishing industry is apparently (going by your example)trying to
ignore the reality and impact of the Internet on those who like to read
and those who like to write. The Net is indeed a threat to the printed
page, as I noted above. But it'll wake up to the facts sooner or later -
I'm wagering sooner. Not only is there money to be made here, after all,
but golly, maybe there's some actual writing talent waiting to be
discovered also. You never know.
> >
> >I love doing both my professional writing and my fanfic. It's
> >rewarding to make money from your work, but this community provides
> >instant and personal feedback that is difficult to match in the world
> >of big-name publishers. Am I making less money because I'm "wasting"
> >my time with Mulder and Scully? Yuppers.
>
> Instant and personal don't add up to -professional-.
Yes, it's so much more important to flop professionally than instantly
and personally. If you haven't wasted a ton of Simon and Schuster's
bucks on a tanked novel that's been remaindered at every Border's in the
known civilized world, how can you call yourself an writer?
--
Hester
a.k.a. "stormlantern" - (definition): wreak a little
havoc, shed a little light
Yahtzee63
one's words appear on a printed (paper) page isn't going to be the one
and only criteria for successful authorship. This is the cyber age,
after all; more and more people are reading the net rather than the
newspaper. Who's to say, really, that someday soon a bard of the
The day may come when some
enterprising author with a good track record and name recognition might
just do that - charge for entry into their webpage and fanfic archive.
Why not?<<
Well, charging money for a fanfic site would constitute a much more serious
infringement of Fox and CC's ownership rights for XF than plain ol' nonprofit
fanfic does. Fox could and would shut down such a site in the second.
However, the rest of what you say has validity. What if Lydia Bower or Paula
Graves or some such began running an original novel for cost? I'd probably pay
to read it. Others would as well, and as more and more people do more and more
online, electronic publishing is only going to get more readers. I'm not one of
those people who thinks paper publishing is going the way of the dinosaur, but
I think that there will come a time -- fairly soon -- when electronic
publishing is going to have a considerable readership. The old rules may well
not apply.
Kipler
publishing is going to have a considerable readership. The old rules may well
not apply. >>
Yes. Look at what's happening in music. People who would *never* get a
recording contract with the industry in its present demonic incarnation are
selling their work directly to the consumers. What was never possible before
is now possible. Voila!
I can see the same thing happening with writing. Say my mother writes a book
of remembrances about her childhood in Pennsylvania Dutch country. So maybe
that's not "sellable" to a publisher. It might very well be sellable to 500
other folks with similar backgrounds - or their descendants. My mother puts
her work on a website (for free). Without needing to go through the tedious
and discouraging "slush pile" route, she gets a couple folks who enjoy her
writing and ask for more, and maybe are even willing to send her $5 here and
there to keep it up. At the end of the year, even if she's made only $100,
she'll be financially (and probably emotionally) ahead of where she would have
been had she tried to go through a number of publishers who would refuse to buy
her stuff because it wouldn't make them lots of money.
I had a friend who spent 8 years writing a history of his local community. He
made $300 when he sold the book. He felt great about seeing it in hard cover
and all - but $300 for 8 years wasn't going to get him out of teaching anytime
soon. I often wonder if he mightn't have had just as much fun building a
really cool website about his topic of interest, and basking in the historical
praise he got.
--Kipler
bugs
keeps stumbling along! One would almost think he was a writer he's
such a glutton for punishment! --bugs
BethLynn
>You never know - maybe very soon, merely having
>one's words appear on a printed (paper) page isn't going to be the one
>and only criteria for successful authorship.
Tah-dah!
Hence, the rising fear being displayed by editors and publishers. Well...
except for those who have managed to grab a clue.
There are only a small percentage of 'authors' being published. Publishing,
ultimately, is about profit. They serve the masses, of which I am one... but,
not the individual, of which I am one.
Those who are shouting that no professional publisher is going to take a Fan
Fiction author seriously should they decide to create original work in hopes of
establishing themselves as an author of original work, are already hopelessly
behind the times, efforts, and want of the people they seek to profit from.
Why am I here reading Fan Fiction? Because the 'legitimate' publishing world
isn't providing me with the quality and quantity I need. I come here to find
authors who write as I want to read.
As far as I am concerned 'legitimate' is defined by me.
*sigh* Earning a living as an author is another issue. However, if you manage
to burn your bridges, or can't seem to find them, build your own.
BethLynn
"To the world you may be no one, but to someone you may be the world."
Dasha K
>Why am I here reading Fan Fiction? Because the 'legitimate' publishing world
>isn't providing me with the quality and quantity I need. I come here to find
>authors who write as I want to read
Excellent point.
You have to do the math. I'll use myself as an example. I'm a voracious
reader. If I like a book, I'll stay up all night reading it. Before I found
fan fiction, I would estimate I bought 2-3 books per month brand new, and
sometimes that many books at a used bookstore. Now I read excellent fiction
from the internet, for *free*. I can suit any taste I'm having, whether it be
romance, erotica, a thriller, a mystery or just silly humor. These days I buy
about one new book every other month or so.
Granted, there are still very few of us getting our reading jones taken care of
by the internet, but the number grows daily. Should publishers be scare? Oh
yeah.
Dasha K.
I wouldn't kick him outta bed for eatin' crackers...
Michele Lellouche
but I couldn't resist...
ORDOVER wrote:
>
> >>Why in the world would he spend *four years*
> >>preaching to fanfic writers?
>
> Because once in a while someone gets it, and moves in the right direction
> toward a professional writing career.
>
> Oh, and to shoot down a fantasy - no pro editor finds writers in fanfiction.
Are you for real? Would you like to know how many writers of the ST
novels started out writing fanfic? Didn't your line publish several
collections of fan fic writers? You may not be pulling them out of the
slush pile, but you stated in another post that no one "serious" writes
fanfic. Sorry to burst your bubble, pal.
<snip>
>
> And as to my job as an editor, and why I'm qualified to judge writing - it's my
> job to pick writing that -will sell-. I've never made any bones about that.
> If I don't do my job, then they'll fire me and find someone who -can- pick
> books that sell (and I don't just do Trek novels, but thrillers, fantasy novels
> like THE BURNING CITY by Niven/Pournelle that'll be out in March).
Now this is interesting. I just attended a convention in which authors
were talking about marketers taking over publishing, leading to less and
less adventurous titles, fewer chances for new authors. Here is is in
action.
>
> The question anyone wanting to be a pro writer needs to answer is "What can I
> do to convince an editor that my book will be worth taking the risk of adding a
> black mark to his/her career on?"
>
> The Bridges of Madison county is a great example - the editor and publisher who
> chose to go with it are geniuses, because it sold MILLIONS of copies in large
> part, I think, because it keyed into a specific fantasy of its target market,
> and also because it had a cover and a title that made men comfortable with
> reading it on the train. It was rejected by many editors and publishers who
> didn't understand its appeal.
It sold large numbers of copies because people liked it and told other
people (I was not one). Independent booksellers told their customers,
turned it into a phenomenon that appeared on CBS Sunday Morning and
Oprah.
<snip>
>
> Also, here's a thought: If you are annoyed by my posts, stop reading them.
> Problem solved.
>
No, here's a thought. I'm annoyed by you, I stop buying your tie-in
novels--wait, too late! They've been so awful, I stopped that awhile
ago. Damn!
Michele Lellouche
Piano Player in a Brothel (aka lawyer)
To paraphrase Joyce McKibben, I'll stop writing X-Files fanfic or any
other fanfic when they pry the pen from my cold dead fingers.
BethLynn
>Are you for real? Would you like to know how many writers of the ST
>novels started out writing fanfic? Didn't your line publish several
>collections of fan fic writers?
I can't recall the name of the collections, but I read two of them featuring
The Original Series. They were written by fans of the show. In one of the
stories, Kirk was transgendered, and Spock and a Klingon had a very sedate but
apparent difference of opinion regarding who Kirk belonged to.
BethLynn
"To the world you may be no one, but to someone you may be the world."
"Tell me the story about the first two people... what were their names? Eve 'n
Odd?" - Na'ysha
journeytoXTC
>The Original Series. They were written by fans of the show. In one of the
>stories, Kirk was transgendered, and Spock and a Klingon had a very sedate
>but
>apparent difference of opinion regarding who Kirk belonged to.
If I remember right, these aren't the Strange New Worlds
collections/anthologies which began two or so years ago.
The ones you refer to were called "The Best of Trek" or something like that,
published in the 70s maybe? Marshak and Culbraith might have had a hand in
them, again I'm not certain. That was a long time ago.
XTC
PennySyc
>The ones you refer to were called "The Best of Trek" or something like that,
>published in the 70s maybe? Marshak and Culbraith might have had a hand in
>them, again I'm not certain.
They were edited by Marshak and Culbraith, and I believe they were called "Star
Trek: The New Voyages." There were two volumes.
The Best of Trek is a series of books which contained stories and essays from
Trek Magazine.
Leslie
John J. Ordover
>Are you for real? Would you like to know how many writers of the ST
>novels started out writing fanfic? Didn't your line publish several
>slush pile, but you stated in another post that no one "serious" writes
>fanfic. Sorry to burst your bubble, pal.
About four out of about 80. And none of them were -discovered-
writing fan fiction - they had -all- had pro novel publications before
we hired them.
d>To paraphrase Joyce McKibben, I'll stop writing X-Files fanfic or
any
>other fanfic when they pry the pen from my cold dead fingers.
>
Executive Editor
The Star Trek Novels
Pocket Books
www.startrekbooks.com
John J. Ordover
Uh - it's more professional to use someone's property without
permission, without their approval of the text, as long as you and
your friends consider that you're doing the characters justice?:)
stormlantern
> permission, without their approval of the text, as long as you and
> your friends consider that you're doing the characters justice?:)
Yes, you got me there. Copyright infringement and all that. But I was
trying to make a point about whether or not a fanfic author should be
respected for the work they put out, and was making the statement that
I, for one, would have paid good money for the privilege of reading many
of the works I now read, essentially, for free. If editors are so eager
to find "proven" talent - and from all accounts I've read they are -
they might want to rethink the contempt you say they hold for fanfic
authors. Those authors who have a following at least prove they have the
ability to please an audience. They do have a track record of sorts.
I kind of get the idea that you think using someone else's characters
for a story makes that story easier to write. Hah! You think it's easy
to make characters that everyone knows and has interpreted to their own
satisfaction ring true on paper? You think it's easy to catch Duchovny's
vocal patterns and Anderson's subtle expressions on the printed page?
Well, it must be more difficult than you appear to surmise, since
"established" authors like the rightly-maligned Mr. Anderson haven't
gotten it right yet.
journeytoXTC
XTC
XXXXgizzieXXXX
> I'm here for fun and creativity, having no ambition beyond challenging
> myself a little and meeting new people.
>
> Why are you here?
Dasha has cookies.
XXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXX
************************************************************
"I feel the same way about getting laid as I feel
about going to college --I'm being pressured into it"
************************************************************
XXXXgizzieXXXX
Dasha K <> wrote
> Drunkards! Didn't even leave me one. Oh well, beer and cookies, not a
good
> mix. <g>
> Dasha K.
I dunked Oreos in a Margarita once, it wasn't bad.
And we were dunking Peeps in gizzFizz at Xeminar....it made LOTS of
foam...
XXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXX
(who once, on a dare, put chocolate ice cream in Guiness, but couldn't
drink it)
Kim
>> Why are you here?
>
>
> Dasha has cookies.
That's good, because Heidi and I drank ALL the beer.
Dasha K
>> Why are you here?
>
>
> Dasha has cookies.
Bwahahahaha!
I think that's as good a reason as any!
Today is a special day, because I found out (actually, yesterday) that I have a
second interview for a job I really want. I'd be paid to write! <g> Sooo, I'm
hauling out the big-gun cookies- espresso chocolate-chip shortbread from the
Roastery. They should be a controlled substance.
Dasha K
>That's good, because Heidi and I drank ALL the beer.
Drunkards! Didn't even leave me one. Oh well, beer and cookies, not a good
mix. <g>
Dasha K.
I wouldn't kick him outta bed for eatin' cookies, especially espresso chocolate
chip shortbread. And if he brought me an iced latte, he could stay all day...
Katrina
>Today is a special day, because I found out (actually, yesterday) that I have
>a
>second interview for a job I really want. I'd be paid to write! <g> Sooo,
>I'm
>hauling out the big-gun cookies- espresso chocolate-chip shortbread from the
>Roastery. They should be a controlled substance.
Oooooo, good luck to you, Dasha!
<Katrina does a happy Snoopy dance>
Katrina
^..^
heynonnyn...@my-deja.com
das...@aol.com (Dasha K) wrote:
> Today is a special day, because I found out (actually, yesterday) that
> I have a
> second interview for a job I really want. I'd be paid to write! <g>
Good luck, Dasha!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D
Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus
Kim
> I dunked Oreos in a Margarita once, it wasn't bad.
Ewwwww!
>
> And we were dunking Peeps in gizzFizz at Xeminar....it made LOTS
>of
>foam...
That's because there are no elements recognizable as food in Peeps or
GizzFizz. This was strictly chemistry. There's Mountain Dew involved, for God's
sake. Tell me that is not unnatural.
<I drink it myself - I should know!>
>
> XXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXX
> (who once, on a dare, put chocolate ice cream in Guiness, but couldn't
>drink it)
>
Actually that doesn't sound so very bad.
Smiley
salt into his Surge, drank it, and started shaking.
Typical HS male bahavior but at the time it was hillarious.
Smiley
~~~~~~~~~~
Smiley :)
See my XF fanfic at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7147/newintention.txt
........and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love
Him and who have been called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28
Dreamshaper
experiments here. But I suggest everybody try Whoppers in milk (but eat em fast
cause soggy whoppers are disgusting.)
Hmm. I just gave myself an XXX rated image...off to enjoy <g>
Dreamshaper
***************
"Tibet?!?"
***************
my site, brand spanking new--
http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/merlin717/authors/dream/dream.htm
Dianne Heins
>
> > (who once, on a dare, put chocolate ice cream in Guiness, but couldn't
> >drink it)
> >
> Actually that doesn't sound so very bad.
Beer and chocolate... you sound like an SF fan <g>
Dianne
Castalia
"John J. Ordover" wrote:
>
> On 10 Oct 1999 10:07:31 GMT, bone...@aol.com (BoneTree) wrote:
>
> Also, let me point out that you say you like writing fan fiction
> because there are no editorial standards... so for someone who wants
> to get started selling fiction, who has to figure out how to survive
> the "strict editorial process" fan fiction is not the best venue.
So, are you saying that fanfiction is not a good enough venue for a
writer to get some practice? I'm just trying to get this straight
here.
I've been a writer of fanfiction for the last 4 years, primarily in a
genre other than X-Files, but I am an editor for fanfiction as well.
And to say that there aren't editors/beta readers out there that don't
give the story adequate reading time and don't treat it with the same
sort of respect as they would any non-fanfiction work is, to put it
bluntly, a load of crap. I take everything I edit seriously, and I'm
sure that there are others out there who do the same. I enjoy writing
myself, but I hope to make my living editing someday. Maybe that's
because I'm anal about my own work - spelling, grammar, etc. - and
maybe it's because I like helping people to be better. Anyone who's
had me edit for them knows that I'm pretty strict about some things. I
tend to point out a *lot* of inconsistencies - if I'm sure of what
they are - as well as potentially problematic areas. However, if
something is well written, I'm sure to tell the writer that, too. No
writer likes to hear all of the things that are wrong with the work
without taking some praise for it as well, unless he/she realizes that
it's not his/her best work.
I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes with this. I'm just trying to
defend what I consider to be a noble area of the 'net. Fanfiction has
certainly earned its place on the internet and it can't be denied that
it has become more a part of this society than it would have once had.
Vaya con Dios,
~Castalia
--
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
"The remarkable thing about fearing God is that when you fear God
you fear nothing else, whereas if you do not fear God you fear
everything else." --Oswald Chambers
"There are those who care not about extraterrestrials, searching for
meaning in other human beings. Rare or lucky are those who find it.
For although we may not be alone in the universe, in our own
separate ways, on this planet, we are all alone." --Jose Chung
("X-Files", episode 3 X 20: Jose Chung's 'From Outer Space')
Castalia
responding to this thread alone ;)
A Weird Sister wrote:
>
> I learned these things from people who did not write fanfic. I have been lucky
> in knowing people who are editors and professional writers. They have taken
> the time to read my stories, and through their guidance, have helped me learn
> things like POV, pacing, how to name characters (yes, there is a trick to it),
> how to begin a story, how to keep readers interested, and much more than I can
> mention here.
There is a certain degree to which you can learn things from
fanfiction and there is a time where you do need to step out of it.
Yes, you've been very lucky to know people that make their living
within your chosen field. However, not everyone is so lucky.
Sometimes, the best way for someone interested both in fanfiction and
in writing "professionally" is to take a fiction writing class
somewhere. I'm grateful that I have been able to take a fiction
writing class, not once, but twice, and with two different professors.
Classes like those help with POV, pacing, etc. That's where I have
learned most of the skills I've obtained. And I know what you mean
about naming characters. It can be a real pain ;)
> What I got from fanfic was a venue to practice those skills. I practiced on
> characters that I knew, and I continued to make mistakes, and my friends
> continued to point those out to me. I learned from that aspect of fanfic.
That's one of the best places to do it. And whoever said that writing
within another person's universe isn't easy hit the nail right on the
head. It's difficult working with characters that your readers would
recognize from somewhere else. It's hard to get the mannerisms just
right. For example, anyone who knows the "seaQuest DSV" universe knows
that Tony Piccolo is a tough-guy sort of character (I'm bringing this
into my primary source of knowledge here), but to show his sensitive
side, which is not often seen on the show, is very difficult and a
dilemma that I've faced. Same is true for Alex Krycek, to bring it
back to X-Files fanfiction. I'm currently working on an XF fic with
Krycek in it and I'm having a difficult time trying to reconcile his
character on the show and give him a conscience as well. Fanfiction is
perhaps the best way, IMO, to work on developing characters that are
true-to-life. There are people in this world, of which the Internet is
the perfect example, who hide their true selves from the rest of the
world, showing others nothing more than the mask that they want to be
seen. To write a character like that can be difficult.
> What I have not learned from fanfic is how to create my own universe, how to
> create characters to populate it, and how to keep that universe going. That
> required me writing in a universe I created. It was hard to take that first
> step--I was afraid. Fanfic was easy, something I knew inside and out. What if
> I failed?
I agree with you whole-heartedly on this fact. However rewarding
fanfiction can be, it doesn't prepare you for the inordinate amount of
work that comes from writing withing your own universe. And even that
depends on the genre you're writing in. I know exactly where you're
coming from in saying that it's difficult to take the first step. It's
hard to step out of the comfort zone of fanfiction to write something
entirely from your own imagination. And it's just as hard to go back
once you've left, even temporarily.
> Little by little, I started spending less time on fanfic and more on my own
> characters. The more I wrote in these original universes, the harder it was to
> come back to fandom. That's how it should be.
Amen! Is there a term or phrase for this phenomenon? There should be
:)
Castalia
Sheryl Martin wrote:
::snipping a well-written post::
> You, sir, are one of the whores who encourage good writers to sell out to
> what YOU perceive the public wants - through your studies and your surveys
> and your patronizing rants about what you want to push on us - and the
> majority of people buy it because they know of nothing better...
YOU GO GIRL! ::ahem:: That's a really good point. I think that once
the writers actually start writing not to the public, but for quality,
and the editors actually become willing to put out quality work, not
for the money, but for the fact that it is good, then maybe a lot of
the books put out on the shelves will be worth reading again. Part of
it is this world's push to put out what will make money, not
necessarily what is good. Why are trashy, smutty romance novels so
popular with some publishers? Because they sell. Because that's what
brings in the money to give the people at the top their high-paying
salaries. Maybe what publishing needs is to put things back into the
hands of the authors, who know what's best for their work, and authors
need to stop giving in to the demands of pushy editors who are trying
to do nothing but make money instead of listening to the ones who
actually know what they're talking about. IMO, the best editors are
those who have been there, done that, and know how frustrating it can
be sometimes in trying to write a story.
And this will never get me a job in the business, will it? But that's
my opinion, and I'm sticking to it...even if I do get in.