MSTied fanfic (long)
m...@cais.com
Even though I'm usually a lurker here, I have to take a position on this
whole MSTie-ing thing. I'm for it. I realize I'm inviting *major* flames
here, so flame away; I suppose I deserve it. But at least read what I have
to say first.
MST is short for (part of) "Mystery Science Theater 3000," a show on
Comedy Central, the premise of which (basically) is that a guy trapped up
in space is forced to watch movies like "Gamera Versus Gaos," "The Crawling
Eye," and so on, because a couple of mad scientists down on Earth are
experimenting on his mind. This dude sits and heckles the movies. The
guys on the MST newsgroups have adopted the show's format for fanfics they
dig up in the .creative newsgroups.
MSTie-ing is never meant as a personal attack on the authors of these
fanfics, any more than the show is meant as an attack on the writers,
directors or "actors" featured in the movies. It's just for fun, and
if done well, it can be darned amusing.
I'm not saying that you, as a writer of a MSTied-fanfic, have to ditch your
pride and just laugh along with it. I understand how you feel (I'm a
writer myself, and I've suffered through my own share of rejection and
unfair criticisms.) However, the person who MSTied your work was not being
deliberately malicious, nor is s/he "out to get you." There is a way to
look at this constructively, of course. Most of the laugh-lines scored off
your fanfic were probably cheap shots, but some might point up flaws in
your writing technique (everybody has them), and tell you what you could
improve on. I watch "Mystery Science Theater 3000" all the time and,
believe it or not, when I revise my own stuff, there's a little voice in
my head that's MSTie-ing it!
As I said, I understand that you're angry and hurt. Writing is intensely
personal, and it's hard to take criticism (particularly criticism like
THAT!) objectively. But, the MSTie-ers aren't going to stop; and quite
frankly, a lot of people like magazine editors are never going to be gentle
with writers. You're just going to have to get used to it. I know that
probably sounds flip, but it's true, and you keep writing, you *will* get
used to it.
-- Gidget
Robert A. DeLisle
: To Betty Tuong, and anyone else who's interested --
: Even though I'm usually a lurker here, I have to take a position on this
: whole MSTie-ing thing. I'm for it. I realize I'm inviting *major* flames
: here, so flame away; I suppose I deserve it. But at least read what I have
: to say first.
OK--flame thrower is on.
I suggest that you post your little stories on the MST3K groups only.
I heard a lot about this show and I was disgusted when I finally saw
it. It is not funny. The movies are not bad enough to be funny, just
bad. I laughed at Reefer Madness and another 30's educational film
without benefit of stupid puppets. I will not read or save any story
that is identified with MST3K. COM is on here in the early hours,
so to watch anything means taping. I won't waste any more tape time on
it. I don't watch cartoons, either.
AAD
leahw...@delphi.com
Personally, I'd rather get a critique that was more dignified. If the person
really wanted to do a MST, then I'd demand permission first. I don't think it
was the criticism everyone was apset about, it just looked like a person (s)
getting a cheap laugh out of a thirteen year old's first try at posting. I
wouldn't blame her if she never posted again, and that's a shame.
This isn't a flame of you, BTW, just another oppinion.
==============================================================================
Leah Warshaw LEAHW...@DELPHI.COM
Official Amateur X Files Author SYX
"Later Dude" - Mulder [Deep Throat]
THE SUe
>person really wanted to do a MST, then I'd demand permission first. I
>don't think it was the criticism everyone was apset about, it just looked
>like a person (s) getting a cheap laugh out of a thirteen year old's first
>try at posting. I wouldn't blame her if she never posted again, and that's
>a shame. This isn't a flame of you, BTW, just another oppinion.
I agree, FWIW. I didn't read either of them (I'm so far behind I expect
that by the time I read the original work the author will have graduated
college <g>), but I don't think they should do that without asking
permission first. I am of the opinion that all criticisms should be
constructive, not =de=structive--that is to say, even if you =hate= the
story, you can still be constructive by telling the author =why= you hate
it. But this doesn't sound too constructive to me.
THESUe
***************************************************************************
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* *
*Ain't it funny how you can look around *
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***************************************************************************
Roberta Chi-Woon Kwong
>To Betty Tuong, and anyone else who's interested --
>
>Even though I'm usually a lurker here, I have to take a position on this
>whole MSTie-ing thing. I'm for it. I realize I'm inviting *major* flames
>here, so flame away; I suppose I deserve it. But at least read what I have
>to say first.
Please note that this reply is not a flame; it's another point of
view.
I've been an avid viewer of MST3K for the last three and a half
years, and greatly enjoy what the show does. I have even, in the
past, supported amateur net.MSTings. I do believe, however, that
the author's permission should be obtained first. MST3K's style of
humor--given that it treads squarely on the toes of other people's
works--simply does not suit everyone; and even for those who later
come to like it, it often takes time to grow accustomed to. When it
comes to matters as personal as someone's creative foray, it
becomes all the more important to take into account that YMMV.
>However, the person who MSTied your work was not being
>deliberately malicious, nor is s/he "out to get you."
The intent may not have been deliberately malicious; but it was
negligent and in bad taste not to ask the author's permission
first, which in no way precludes the MSTing from being hurtful.
Mere thoughtlessness can still do a lot of damage.
>There is a way to
>look at this constructively, of course. Most of the laugh-lines scored off
>your fanfic were probably cheap shots, but some might point up flaws in
>your writing technique (everybody has them), and tell you what you could
>improve on.
Almost anything can be viewed constructively, but that does not
justify the existence of that "anything" in the first place.
>As I said, I understand that you're angry and hurt. Writing is intensely
>personal, and it's hard to take criticism (particularly criticism like
>THAT!) objectively. But, the MSTie-ers aren't going to stop; and quite
>frankly, a lot of people like magazine editors are never going to be gentle
>with writers. You're just going to have to get used to it.
Criticism from an editor, while potentially being harsh, will at
least be specifically solicited by the author. It's people who MST
in this manner that give the fandom a bad name, the same as those
who MST out loud in a theater; it's a matter of simple courtesy. I
understand that by posting a creative work to a public forum, one
is leaving oneself open for criticism from anybody and everybody...
but it *doesn't* mean that one has to swallow whatever somebody
else chooses to dish out. (Each time I take my car out on the road,
I'm putting myself at risk, including from careless drivers. There
will never be a shortage of careless drivers; should I just get
used to them, too? Will my defensive driving take all the
responsibility off those drivers even if they do some damage to
me?) There has to be a line somewhere.
Robin C. Kwong ("er)
Mike Barklage
>
>Personally, I'd rather get a critique that was more dignified. If the person
>really wanted to do a MST, then I'd demand permission first.
>
There was a discussion about this on our MiSTing mailing list (that I brought
up, BTW) about whether or not we should try to get permission from the authors
of the fanfics. There are still no rules about it, for the following reasons.
First, not all of what we MST are fanfics. A lot of the time, we MST spammed
advertisments (like MAKE.MONEY.FAST) or looneys on various conspiracy or
alien-visitor newsgroups (ever heard of John Winston? Canter and Siegel?).
If we asked John Winston if we could make fun of his beliefs, do you really
think he'd agree?
Second, sometimes the fanfic's authors aren't on-line anymore, so tracking
them down to ask them would be a waste of time. This is often the case with
the archived Star Trek fanfics posted on alt.star-trek.creative. And if
we do ask them, some of them (like Stephen Ratliff) don't even respond.
Last, it seems kind of cruel to actually e-mail the author of a fanfic to
tell him, "Hey, your fanfic sucks. Can I MST it?" If you just take the
fanfic and post it on the MST newsgroup, you get your way and the original
author still thinks he's the best writer since Peter David (or whoever).
This is where the MiSTer of "Never Closer" messed up -- *don't* post
it on the original newsgroup, especially on a tight-knit group like this
one.
The reason Best Brains, Inc (who make MST3000) have to buy rights to the
movies they watch is because these are actually copyrighted. If they didn't
get permission, they could be sued. There are no such restrictions here --
all of your fanfics are written "without permission" of the show's creators.
The only restrictions here are common sense and good taste, which is why
you hardly ever hear from us personally.
Mike Barklage
aka Chirpy, MSTie #19634
THE SUe
>movies they watch is because these are actually copyrighted. If they
>didn't get permission, they could be sued. There are no such restrictions
>here -- all of your fanfics are written "without permission" of the show's
>creators. The only restrictions here are common sense and good taste, which
>is why you hardly ever hear from us personally.
>
>Mike Barklage
>aka Chirpy, MSTie #19634
Mike,
I don't agree with you, but I'm not gonna argue because you won't
convince me to change my POV and neither will I convince you. You're
entitled to your opinion.
But I did want to correct a point in the paragraph above. Just because
the characters are copyrighted to Ten-Thirteen Productions, Chris Carter, or
whatever doesn't mean the authors here don't have any protection under
copyright law. Yes, this sounds contradictory, but it's true. Ten-Thirteen
and/or CC has the rights to the characters, but the stories are the property
of the authors. (All the authors have to do to copyright their story is
to put a copyright notice on it.) So (technically), anyone who wants to
give a story posted here the MSTie treatment =does= need to obtain
permission from the author.
leahw...@delphi.com
You seem to be rationalizing just a touch. Just because you don't HAVE to ask
someone's permission to do a MST, it doesn't mean you CAN'T. If you can't find
the person or they never respond, that's not their problem. If the MSTer never
gets a responce then they shouldn't do it. It'
s a matter of politness.
If you write a person, you don't have to openly say their work sucks. Just ask
them if they care if you do a MST, and make sure they know what it is.
tab...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
>To Betty Tuong, and anyone else who's interested --
>As I said, I understand that you're angry and hurt. Writing is intensely
>personal, and it's hard to take criticism (particularly criticism like
>THAT!) objectively. But, the MSTie-ers aren't going to stop; and quite
>frankly, a lot of people like magazine editors are never going to be gentle
>with writers. You're just going to have to get used to it. I know that
>probably sounds flip, but it's true, and you keep writing, you *will* get
>used to it.
>
> -- Gidget
OK gang, my four cents:
I am a teacher of English on the college level. I have participated in creative
writing groups since I was sixteen. I am a published writer, and I have done
professional editing.
Let me let you in on a secret:
Editors are ruthless but they are not mean. A person who wants to be a
professional writer must get used to the pain of having red slashes drawn
through their favorite word, paragraph, or scene. But they do not have to put
up with sarcasm or cruelty. The cruelest thing an editor will _ever_ say is
"I'm sorry, we have no use for this right now," which is a polite way of saying
No thank you, go home, don't call us we'll call you. An editor does not make
jokes at the writer's expense. (At least, certainly not to their face, though
of course what editors do with one another behind closed doors is not up for
discussion.)
That said, let me also tell you that while a PROFESSIONAL writer must at least
develop a slightly thick skin, and realize that not every word they've ever
written is pure gold, an AMATEUR writer has a different set of expectations.
People come to amateur writing groups like this to share their own work, to
enjoy others', to have fun. No one expects to have to grow a thick skin to have
fun.
Betty wrote a fine story, shared it with us, and in NO sense was it appropriate
for anyone to take that effort and MStie it. The movie companies give the
rights to MST3K to do that to their movies; I guarantee you somewhere there's a
writer cringing at every joke every time that gets done. But that's a
professional writer, who sold the rights to his/her work, and isn't involved in
it any more (I doubt that many of them even know what MST3K is.)
No one asked Betty for the rights to her story to MSTie, even if those rights
belonged to her, which they probably don't -- legally, they belong to Chris
Carter, if Chris Carter cared which he probably doesn't. Which all boils down
to the genuine generous effort of a young person sharing her creative effort
with the rest of us who enjoy a.t.x-f.c, and getting shot in the gut for her
pains.
There had BETTER not be any more MSTie-ing in this group WITHOUT THE WRITER'S
PERMISSION. It isn't funny, and it isn't what the writer ought to expect. In
this case especially, it was just plain cruel, stupid and unfunny. And people
who tell themselves that cruelty is just what this world's about and the rest
of us need to get used to it, are either sick or retarded. I would have added
juvenile but it's clear that Betty, who is quite young, has handled this thing
much more adultly than anyone might have expected -- certainly more than I
would have, but I have a quick temper.
Judith L. Tabron
Department of English, Brandeis University
tab...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Mike Barklage
> But I did want to correct a point in the paragraph above. Just because
>the characters are copyrighted to Ten-Thirteen Productions, Chris Carter, or
>whatever doesn't mean the authors here don't have any protection under
>copyright law. Yes, this sounds contradictory, but it's true. Ten-Thirteen
>and/or CC has the rights to the characters, but the stories are the property
>of the authors. (All the authors have to do to copyright their story is
>to put a copyright notice on it.) So (technically), anyone who wants to
>give a story posted here the MSTie treatment =does= need to obtain
>permission from the author.
Somebody else on the MiSTing mailing group told me this as well, and frankly,
I found it hard to believe from her, too. It *does* sound contradictory
to me. But then, I don't know anything about copyright laws and how
to obtain them, and I've never tried to declare a copyright on any of my
work (which goes beyond MiSTings, BTW). I think if I started an
argument about copyright laws, I'd lose.
Oh well, I'm not trying to start a flame-war here. In fact, I started
posting here in an attempt to *prevent* one. If I've offended anyone,
I'm sorry. But I, for one, won't be convinced to stop writing MiSTings
of fanfics from this newgroup or anywhere else on the Net.
Besides, I don't think I could change things one way or another. There
are many people on the MST newsgroup who wouldn't care what I have to say.
If I asked them to start asking permission for fanfics, I don't think many
would listen. Some MSTies are a lot more hard-assed than I am.
Mike Barklage
>
>You seem to be rationalizing just a touch.
Perhaps I am. After all, I am arguing for something that I can't win here.
> Just because you don't HAVE to ask
>someone's permission to do a MST, it doesn't mean you CAN'T. If you can't find
>the person or they never respond, that's not their problem. If the MSTer never
>gets a responce then they shouldn't do it. It'
>s a matter of politness.
Politeness to whom? If the author is no longer on-line, then how can he
be offended by a MiSTing?
>
>If you write a person, you don't have to openly say their work sucks. Just ask
>them if they care if you do a MST, and make sure they know what it is.
>
Then what do I tell them? That his fanfic didn't suck, but I want to
satirize it anyway?
I dunno. I'm still for the "Ignorance is Bliss" argument... :)
Mike Barklage
Mike Barklage
>Betty wrote a fine story, shared it with us, and in NO sense was it appropriate
>for anyone to take that effort and MStie it. The movie companies give the
>rights to MST3K to do that to their movies;
Actually, MST3K pays for those movies, sometimes quite dearly. The logical
upshoot of this argument is that we should start paying money for use
of these fanfics.
>No one asked Betty for the rights to her story to MSTie, even if those rights
>belonged to her, which they probably don't -- legally, they belong to Chris
>Carter, if Chris Carter cared which he probably doesn't.
The MST3000 people show up on our newsgroup every so often, and some of us
have asked them if they could read our MiSTings. They said they were legally
bound not to read them; not because they would sue us, but because if
something happened in the show later on that bore a resemblance to a MiSTing,
Best Brains themselves could get sued. Chris Carter would probably have
a similar stance if he knew about this newsgroup (maybe he does?). This
probably doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I thought it
was interesting.
>There had BETTER not be any more MSTie-ing in this group WITHOUT THE WRITER'S
>PERMISSION.
Is this a threat? Because I sincerely hope that I haven't goaded anyone
into threatening me.
> It isn't funny, and it isn't what the writer ought to expect.
That's your opinion (about the "funny" part, that is). If I didn't think
what I did was funny, then I wouldn't do it.
Mike Barklage
BRUCE
is - if you're going to MSTie a story from here (and it appears as though
you are), don't post it here 'cos we don't want to read it.
Mike, I don't know if you are the one who MSTied the story -- I read the
first few lines and stopped -- but if you are, just understand that there
is a young lady out there who's feelings you have hurt badly. It was
heartless and cruel to rub her face in your opinion of her story by
posting the MSTied version here.
If you aren't the one who did it, then perhaps you can at least _see_
that this is what has happened.
I've seen some MST3K, and I do think it's funny. But when it's done to a
14 year old's first story (sorry if I got the age wrong!), it's not
classy in the least.
It can't be about whether you (the collective you) should MSTie the
stories or not -- clearly you're going to. Instead, just be polite
enough not to do it here. Sounds fair to me.
-=Dawn=-
_/\_
_/\\ //\_ Dawn Elliott at University Of Guelph
> < dell...@uoguelph.ca
>__ __< Cool Beans!
|| 100% Canadian & Guaranteed Never To Be What You Expect
Coincidence...or XFile?
1 9 7 5 **DD is ATMBE**
Mike Barklage
>Okay, I've seen this thread go on for a bit, and I think the bottom line
>is - if you're going to MSTie a story from here (and it appears as though
>you are), don't post it here 'cos we don't want to read it.
That's what we normally do.
>Mike, I don't know if you are the one who MSTied the story --
I'm not. I don't remember who it was (I could go back and check, I s'pose),
but I do remember he was not part of the 'official' MiSTings list, didn't
call dibs on the story, etc. And he sure as hell didn't tell us before he
crossposted the MiSTing, or else we would have told him not to.
[stuff deleted]
>It can't be about whether you (the collective you) should MSTie the
>stories or not -- clearly you're going to. Instead, just be polite
>enough not to do it here. Sounds fair to me.
Me too.
Mike Barklage