Behind the scenes....
Sabine
> honestly, I thought they were. The list mom publicly and privately
> conveyed that the witches site was humerous and that she didn't care
> that members were witches. For me, that was the Virginian's stamp of
> approval as well as a total disregard towards one of its members.
Once more, just to clarify--
I've told Paige and others that I don't feel comfortable censoring. I
support any Stu or Moe or Joe or Goody who wants to put up a website in this
great big world. Does that mean I support the Witches? It sure means I
support their right to exist.
Do what you gotta do.
Additionally, I never said I didn't "care that members were Witches." I said
I would NOT start an inquisition to find OUT if members were Witches. That
is so very outside anything that I care about, and there ain't no way I'm
attacking or accusing my friends simply because of a flamewar. I know my
friends. I trust my friends. I like my friends. I like my list. That's where
my loyalties lie. (Lay? Lie? I never know the difference. <g>)
Anyway, the above sentiments are my own, and do not necessarily represent
the views of YV, Fox Television, Ten-Thirteen Productions or a partridge in
a pear tree.
Thanks, darlings.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled flamewar, already in progress!
Whee!
(Still forgot to buy kitty litter -- DAMN!),
Sabine
Sabine
WickdZoot <wick...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20000916221723...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> >Additionally, I never said I didn't "care that members were Witches." I
said
> >I would NOT start an inquisition to find OUT if members were Witches.
>
> Actually, dear heart, if may quote you, what you said to *me* at least is
this:
> "I don't know if there are witches on YV. There could certainly be. I have
not
> asked. I don't CARE."
>
> Just to clarify.
Sure thing, doll. I don't care. I didn't start this. I was merrily livin' my
fanficky life when all of a sudden I heard people sayin' nasty things about
my list. So I stepped in to try and clear that up, and then planned to go
back to my fanficky life.
Which is not to say that I don't think you have a right to battle the
Witches till doomsday. Go for it, sweet cakes. This is between you and them,
and anyone else who wants to participate. Never would I stand in the way of
your valiant crusade.
Looks like people have stopped accusing YV. That's a good thing. I can't
tell you how much I appreciate the support we've gotten from the good folks
at home. But on YV we've moved past this. We're talkin' X-Men and knitting.
<g>
Me, I think I'm gonna have some ice cream.
Abyssinia,
Sabine
paigec...@hotmail.com
keep, I'm posting a new thread to clarify my position.
We all say and do things we regret. The tactics I used by accusing the
Yes Virginian group were cruel. I admit that. As a former member, I
felt betrayed. First, by Sarah Parsons and Mary Sebasky who will never
admit publicly that they are witches and secondly, by a group that
shelters the guilty out of fear.
I exposed my bad netiquette fully realizing I would be harshly flamed.
Was it worth it? Probably not. I could have stayed silent. The
witches took my story down from their site soon after I made a cryptic
remark to the Virginian's mailing list months ago. Soon thereafter,
the witches publicly announced that their attack was a bit "too
personal", that they were "revising their critique" for a later date.
Ironically, my public accusation did prompt recent private
negotiations. They failed, not because of the terms involved, but
because bad netiquette carried more weight than the truth.
Were all members of the Yes Virginia list aware of the witches? Quite
honestly, I thought they were. The list mom publicly and privately
conveyed that the witches site was humerous and that she didn't care
that members were witches. For me, that was the Virginian's stamp of
approval as well as a total disregard towards one of its members.
Where do we go from here? Well, the witches returned from "retreat"
and revamped their page. Everyone is taking stands as to what is
appropriate and inappropriate behavior in this fandom. Meanwhile, I'm
still standing...granted, a bit crisp...but, finally understanding that
appropriate behavior is rather subjective these days.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
WickdZoot
>I would NOT start an inquisition to find OUT if members were Witches.
Actually, dear heart, if may quote you, what you said to *me* at least is this:
"I don't know if there are witches on YV. There could certainly be. I have not
asked. I don't CARE."
Just to clarify.
zoot, irritated
"Lo, and out of nowhere, a champion shall appear..." - anonymous
---------------------------------------------------------
VOTE ZOOT 2000
http://www.geocities.com/cassandraxf.html
WickdZoot
>fanficky life when all of a sudden I heard people sayin' nasty things about
>my list.
Actually, if I'm correct, nasty things were being said *initially* about a
certain member of your list.
We already know how funny you think the Witches are. After all, didn't you
send out the URL to a few other mailing lists? One person claims you even
asked for feedback.
Such a sweetheart, to help them garner reaction to their page. I hope you
passed on how badly designed it was, and btw, the image link on the Happy
Thoughts page is still screwed.
zoot
august
wick...@aol.comnospam (WickdZoot) wrote:
> Actually, if I'm correct, nasty things were being said *initially*
about a certain member of your list.
>
> We already know how funny you think the Witches are. After all,
didn't you send out the URL to a few other mailing lists? One person
claims you even asked for feedback.
>
> Such a sweetheart, to help them garner reaction to their page. I
hope you passed on how badly designed it was, and btw, the image link
on the Happy Thoughts page is still screwed.
>
> zoot
I have been reading and watching and listening to the endless reams of
CRAP that this discussion has turned out. But I've not seen anything
that quite equates to a personal ATTACK like this.
Sabine is not the anti-christ. Sabine is not a bad person. She is kind
and funny and intelligent and runs a pretty goddamn special mailing
list. (Or used to, until real life snapped her back up.)
I suggest you all check your motivations for your anger on this. And
then move on. The witches are not the end of the world, unless you let
them be. There is a Close function on your browser for a reason.
Instead of bitching, how about you all use it?
And yes, Virginia, I am --
august
"I want to know how bad it can get"
http://Appelsini.tripod.com
WickdZoot
>that quite equates to a personal ATTACK like this.
Not at all. Sabine and I have had this discussion privately, and she chose to
open it up here publicly.
zoot, who doesn't know sabine from adam and doesn't care
perela...@yahoo.com
paigec...@hotmail.com wrote:
> For those lost on the very lengthy thread regarding the company we
> keep, I'm posting a new thread to clarify my position.
Even though the horse has already been beaten to death on this issue
but apparently is still alive and twitching, I would like to clarify
some points on this issue as well.
POINT: Yes, Virginia, I am a member.
POINT: The Yes Virginia list, as a whole, has not and does not have
ANY knowledge of the identities of any of the Witches, nor does the Yes
Virginia list have any knowledge that any members of said list are or
are affiliated with the Witches. I, for one, have only visited the
Witches site once a long time ago, and I don't even remember the URL,
and don't care to remember.
I cannot say that the Witches' site can, or should, be censored, any
more than websitesthatsuck.com, mayhem.net or hightimes.com should be
censored. I'm a WWF fan who supported ptcsucks.com's successful
campaign against the Parents' Television Council (PTC)'s fight to
censor the Smackdown television program. Those of you who remembered
the TOS wars and the XAPEN/AOL debacle of a few years back remember how
strongly I feel about censorship, and I will not renege my position
against censorship here.
Does that mean I put a "stamp of approval" on what the Witches do?
Does the fact that I am concerned about personal attacks on my friends
mean that I'm patting the Witches' backs? Absolutely NOT. I will say
that I do not condone the Witches' behavior; even though I think of and
treat fanfic as a hobby and do not give it as much importance as, say,
my music and theatre career, some people here do give it a lot of
importance and what the Witches do is a complete disregard of those
people's feelings. I do believe that by visiting the Witches site, and
by keeping this thread alive we, as a community, give them bandwidth,
notoriety, and power, and that is something I do not want them to
have. *That* is what will make them take the site down; someday the
weak number of hits will not make the time and energy of those involved
worth it (unless, of course, they REALLY have no lives and have NOTHING
better to do than slag writers).
Yes, Virginia is NOTHING more than a bunch of friends hanging out. We
talk about what we did during the day. We complain about work. We
talk about Hugh Jackman being a sexy bitch. Hell, this summer we
hardly talked about fanfic at all, except for beta reads and where this
thread was concerned. And yes, we snark sometimes. But, as many
people have reiterated time and again, everyone snarks. I'll even
quote the sock and say "let he who is without sin cast the first
stone." And, as many people have reiterated time and again, it is a
PRIVATE LIST. Does that make us Witches? I hate Britney Spears, does
that make me Eminem? Does that give our members the right to be
censored on distribution lists?
What still stands, Paige, is the fact that what you did in giving out
your password is absolutely reprehensible. No excuses, no
justification, NOTHING will displace the wrongness of what you did.
What about the other lists on your Egroups account that you also
compromised the security of? Have you given a thought to THOSE list
members? I trusted the YV members that I hung out with personally as
well as online with personal information that I did NOT want to make
generally known, and if the breach of that security comes back to me in
a real-life setting, I *will* hold you personally and legally
responsible. And I'm sure that holds true for other YV members as well.
Some perspective for closure: We create FAN FICTION BASED ON THE
TELEVISION SHOW "THE X-FILES", guys. It's how we *choose* to spend our
time. No one dies, or lives, loses or gains anything financially
because of fanfic. If something upsets us, it's as simple as hitting
Delete. The Witches are horrible people for their inconsideration of
people's feelings, but they only have power because we GIVE them
power. By talking about them. By throwing around accusations. By
visiting their site. By giving them validity and attention.
On the flip side, what you did, Paige, went beyond fanfic. It went
beyond our harmless hobby. By compromising our personal security,
you've crossed the line into real life. And that makes me feel more
betrayed than anything the Witches could ever do. Even if I found out
they were among my friends. Even if my favorite story was dragged
through the mud by them. Because, there is Perelandra, and there is
me. The Witches can hurt only one of us. You have betrayed us both,
as well as thirty of my closest friends. Congratulations for not only
stooping to the Witches' level, but lying beneath them.
And this is all, and I mean ALL, I am going to say about that. ENOUGH
ENOUGH ENOUGH ALREADY. PLEASE.
-*perelandra*-
(does like a good fight, but only on a real mat, not a virtual one.
Preferably with ropes and turnbuckles.)
P.S. If you absolutely *feel* the need to reply to me, please do so in
private email. I no longer read the newsgroup. Of course, this was an
exception because of the personal nature of these events. But yeah,
say what you will, whatever. I'm done, I'm tired, and I have a life to
take care of. Peace.
--
"The Rock wipes a lobster's left testicle with what you think!" -- The
Rock, Smackdown '00
XFW73317, OBSSE, Xeminar '99 :-)
The Rock for Prez!
Shannara
as they please -- which is to harass and libel -- says a lot
about you, Perelandra.
Paige was trying to out the witches in your midst. But you
are more concerned that people might find out what was being
discussed on the list. Quite frankly, we don't care about
the YV's or what they say, only the witches among them.
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:26:33 GMT, perela...@yahoo.com
wrote:
carla mantel
security does in fact pose a larger issue than a bunch of mental infants
being the cruel children that they are. One can choose to ignore the
witches, if they raise one's blood pressuree too high. One can respond
with ridicule, as zoot has done, or with indignation, as many here have
done. But there exists control over the situation, however the individual
chooses to implement it. In the case of ANY security breach, there is
little or no choice in how to act, because one does not know exactly what
damage has been done, what has been "leaked," etcetera. Those who were
compromised must simply sit at the ready to go on the defensive. and that
is a nerve-wracking place to be.
So. Let's not judge each other by which "emergency" we react to most
vehemently. Everyone of us will be effected differently depending on
which issue touches us personally. And do let's remember that we're here
to TRY to have fun... relax... read fic<G>. Speaking of which, in honor
of tonight's rerun, can anyone rec some post-Arcadia fic? I love the ones
about the rings...<g>
Carla,
begging for fanfic, olive branch, or both:)
Shannara (shanna...@xemplary.com) wrote:
: By saying you think the witches should be left alone to do
inquisi...@my-deja.com
cma...@ub.d.umn.edu (carla mantel) wrote:
> Who is the "we" to which you referr? This *I* thinks that compromised
> security does in fact pose a larger issue than a bunch of mental
infants
> little or no choice in how to act, because one does not know exactly
what
> damage has been done, what has been "leaked," etcetera. Those who
were
> compromised must simply sit at the ready to go on the defensive. and
that
> is a nerve-wracking place to be.
"Security Breach"??? Lords, to hear you folks tell it, it's like Paige
infiltrated N.O.R.A.D. and sold the nuclear launch codes to the
Russians, rather than posting what a few sniping wenches had to say to
one and other. I near laughed as hard at this one, as I did the one
that mentioned "legal" action, which I can only assume was done out of
ignorace of the law. Hate to break it to you loves, but you don't have
the patient/doctor or attorney/client privacy privileges on the net
that you have in those two examples. Anything you post to a message
thread, or email, whether you like it or not is able to be used by
anyone in any way they see fit, Emails and thread posts are not
considered "intellectual property" in the sense that a posted story is,
and even in that regards, the law is a wee bit gray on the subject. So
if you are concerned about such, you had best watch what you say and to
whom you say it, thats just common sense, something that several are
obviously a wee bit short of.
As to Sabine, are you the list mom for the YV or not? It appears even
your own membership is confused in that regards. As a casual reader, I
would also like to point out that what you say here regarding your
veiws on the Witches, and what you said in the other thread certainly
appear to contradict each other. But I will leave that for others to
condemn. Have fun ;)!
BRING IT ON!!!!
DBKate
>infiltrated N.O.R.A.D. and sold the nuclear launch codes to the
>Russians, rather than posting what a few sniping wenches had to say to
Now *that's* perspective.
DBKate
~*~*~*~*~*~
VOTE ZOOT:
http://www.geocities.com/cassandraxf/index.html
~*~*~*~*~*~
the slash of dbkate
http://www.geocities.com/dbkate/index.html
Sabine
> your own membership is confused in that regards. As a casual reader, I
> would also like to point out that what you say here regarding your
> veiws on the Witches, and what you said in the other thread certainly
> appear to contradict each other. But I will leave that for others to
> condemn. Have fun ;)!
Indeedy. I was the YV listmom until about a week ago when I started two new
mammoth projects for work and don't have the time anymore. I'm still on YV,
but some friends have taken over administrative duties and...
Why do you care? And how is this relevant? I should have consulted my
Elements of Kipler before even answering. *sigh*
As for my opinion on the Witches, AGAIN, I support their right to do
whatever the hell they want, just like I support your right to rail against
them till the end of time. The Witches and the anti-Witches seem a good
match for one another, and as long as you're all having fun shoutin' and
screamin', god forbid I should interfere.
With the power to NOT click the link, NOT visit the site, NOT read anything
I don't want to read, I have no ground to stand on to tell anyone what they
can or can't do. And I wouldn't want to.
Not because of the First Amendment or because of some strange moral high
ground, but because, IMHO, the Witches have ABOUT as much right to put up
their site as we have to take the X-Files and write fanfic about it. I mean,
ask yourself -- who is REALLY getting hurt? No one's getting physically
injured. No one, as far as I can tell, has actually lost readership,
friends, or support because his or her fic was Witch-ed. Yes, I think
they're mean. Yes, I hate it when people make fun of ME. But the best it can
be considered is an EMBARASSMENT. And it's even more embarassing how heated
up everyone's gotten about it.
Have I laughed at stuff I've read on the Witches site? Yes, on occasion. I'm
not going to lie about that.
Do I think the Witches are nice, good people? No way in hell. I think
they're catty, and cowardly for taking potshots at the weak.
Man, I hope this is clear enough, because tomorrow's a work day and I'm not
gonna be able to check the NG for a while now.
So I'll leave you to your festivities.
And while we're at it -- Lara Means, will you marry me? <g>
Yes, Virginia, I still am,
Sabine
WickdZoot
>up everyone's gotten about it.
To whom?
Sure. Fine. Whatever.
zoot, amused again
"Lo, and out of nowhere, a champion shall appear..." - anonymous
---------------------------------------------------------
VOTE ZOOT 2000
http://www.geocities.com/cassandraxf/index.html
paigec...@hotmail.com
"And while we're at it -- Lara Means, will you marry me? <g>"
Does that mean you offering a "ruby red" to "slip" around her finger?
Teddi Litman
Sabine wrote:
> No one, as far as I can tell, has actually lost readership,
> friends, or support because his or her fic was Witch-ed.
It seems to me that people have lost friends over this issue. In the very least,
there are bad feelings between people that were never there before that can be
traced directly back to the Witches' actions. I've seen *you* and Paige argue on
this ng about it quite vehemently. Would those bad feelings between the two of
you exist without the Witches?
Teddi
WickdZoot
zoot, pondering the spelling of 'EMBARRASSMENT'
Snarkypup
gave out, without my permission, a password to a private site that has my
name, address and phone number on it. I don't think you *personally* would
send me something nasty in the mail, would you dear? But y'know, there are
so many crazy people on the internet and I would hate to have something
happen to me because someone did something so, well, incredibly thoughtless
as to give out my private information without asking me if it were ok.
Now, I guess that doesn't seem offensive to you. So, why don't you and
"inquisitor" send on over your personal stats and I'll just forward them to
all my friends. You won't mind, will you, darlin'? That wouldn't bother you
at all. I mean, you aren't NORAD or anything, right?
Waiting with my address book open...
Jess Mabe (and Yes, Virginia, that's my real name. Unlike some, I don't post
under multiple names)
Snarkypup
> Yes Virginian group were cruel. I admit that. As a former member, I
> felt betrayed. First, by Sarah Parsons and Mary Sebasky who will never
> admit publicly that they are witches and secondly, by a group that
> shelters the guilty out of fear.
Hmm, now here we have names again.
You know, I try to do the right thing. And sometimes, the right thing is
staying out of things. But I'm not going to stand by when my friends are
accused of something. Yep, folks, my FRIENDS. Sarah Ellen Parsons and Mary
Sebasky are my friends, from lots of emails and for sticking by me when I
needed them.
So here goes: I'm about to explain to everyone, as succinctly as I can,
exactly how you have arrived at the conclusion that these folks are Witches.
This explanation is taken from the emails to the list and from the emails
Laurie Haynes sent me personally. I just thought that if you're gonna name
names, we all ought to understand how you arrived at this conclusion. Fair
enough, right? If I get it wrong, by all means, do correct me.
You don't like the Witches. So you, or a friend of yours, traced their
addresses to various ISPs. Now, what is an ISP? Well, mine is Mindspring.
Yours is Hotmail. Then you figured out that a particular Witch lives in a
particular city. Chicago, I believe. Which, according to my Rand McNally
Road Atlas, has a population of... 2.75 million folks, not including the
surrounding areas.
So you trolled all the addresses of folks with that ISP who post regularly
to the fic lists, because the Witches claim they too write fic under
different names, and we all know they'd never lie about anything. You then
looked up all the people using that ISP and figured out which ones lived in
the Chicago area. You came up with only one. Sarah Ellen. So she's got to be
a Witch. That's it, right? That's what you've got. Let's say Sarah Ellen
uses... Hotmail. There's a Witch who posts from Chicago, using Hotmail.
That's the connection. I'm reading this correctly, right? Because if you
have something more concrete, please do let me know.
Now, let's say I wanted to be a Witch. So let's say I needed a new,
anonymous name to post under, because I damn well don't want anyone to know
I'm a Witch, since that seems to be against the rules of their little coven.
Well, damnit, I've used all the email accounts Mindspring gives me. I'm
going to need a new email account. Well, maybe I'll use Hotmail instead. Or
Yahoo. They're free, right? So I set myself up as Stin...@yahoo.com. Then
you start tracing my ISP. I live in Seattle, or thereabouts. So you start
trolling the lists again. There must be someone who writes fic from Seattle
who uses a Yahoo account... right? And that person MUST BE ME by your logic.
But Paige, it isn't me. You see, I'm very clever. I've used a *different*
ISP as a Witch then I do as a fic writer! What's an inquisitor to do? How
will you expose me now? How, how will you ever shut me down with my Witchy,
Witchy ways?!
Disclaimer: I'm not a Witch. Don't know any Witches. Don't like 'em. Don't
visit their site. Don't care if they have a site. Figure they've got a right
to have one, but much like bad television, I don't have to look at it.
I'm not saying, Paige, that the way you've arrived at the Witches
"identities" was stupid or irresponsible. I'm not saying that then taking
this "proof" public is mean and baseless. I'm not saying you have some weird
personal crusade against certain people on the internet, which takes up
waaaaay too much of your energy and time. I'm not saying your own behavior
has been totally and completely loathsome and reprehensible. I figure you're
pretty good at saying those things yourself.
All I'm saying is: Sarah's my friend. She's never done anything, both on YV
or in personal emails to me to lead me to believe that she's anything other
than a great gal with far more sense than to get into this ridiculous mess.
So I'm gettin' in for her. Because that's what I do for my friends.
Proud to be a Virginian,
Jess Mabe
mabtng
mab
Snarkypup
> Indeed. This painfully obvious fact cuts my participation in the
pity-party by
> a goodly portion, "darling."
>
> But, that's just me.
>
> DBKate
> (whose name ain't even "Kate" ...)
Well, any hacker who'd waste their time hacking into egroups so that they
could read the private, and often boring messages sent by 30 individuals
they don't know on the off chance that they would find a bit of personal
information would be a very, very bored person with no life.
We all send out personal information over the internet all the time, so
don't give me the crap about how naive I am. You've never bought anything
from Amazon.com? I used to work for them. People hack in occasionally there
too. No, no forum is safe, and we all know it. But for the most part, a
small site with no advertising, no keywords and no real content is probably
not going to garner attention from anyone other than those involved. Unless,
of course, someone starts spreading that information out to their friends
just for the hell of it.
And when someone does something like this *deliberately*, then that makes
them... well, mean. We created this site for us, and it's highly unlikely
that without Paige's actions, anyone would ever have found it, or bothered
to hack into it. She knew what she was doing, and she did it because she's
not a nice person.
That's the point, darlin'.
Jess
Snarkypup
> Honey, obviously you didn't understand my explanation of the evidence.
>
> Or my quick and dirty of how networks work.
Yeah, but I got the jist of it, didn't I? You don't know that the address
you have *IS* Sarah Ellen's, do you? Nope.
>
> And actually, I didn't name any names, now did I?
Never said you did. Unless you really are Paige.
>
> I'm glad you have friends. And your loyalty to your friends is admirable.
>
> You can continue to remain loyal to your friends, and that's even
admirable.
Damn right.
>
> But don't try and tell me what I know and don't know; my company is
spending
> money on me to teach me these things and, heavens, I need to get some
hands on
> practice, after all.....
>
> Telecommunications Essentials. Boring, but ultimately chock full of
> information.
So this is what your company is paying you to learn, huh? Funny, I was never
paid for anything remotely this useless. Lucky you.
>
> zoot
>
> PS Hotmail, darling, is not an ISP. It's a free mail service.
>
> You log into it AFTER you connect to your ISP.
True, you are correct. Mindspring, however, is an ISP. And having an ISP
address doesn't mean you have proof. End of story.
Jess
Snarkypup
>
> Um, Jess? Hotmail is a free online service. It has little or nothing to
do
> with ISPs.
As I just replied to zoot, my bad. You're right. It isn't. I was worked up,
and I'm not being trained by my company to do things like this. But it still
doesn't mean she had proof. The example of Hotmail, while technically
incorrect, still makes it's point.
Mindspring is an ISP, which I also mentioned. So let's talk about that
example, shall we? Mindspring and Earthlink, which are one company, support
hundreds of thousands of people in my area. Several of them like the XF,
probably. Some of them may even post here. So if there's a Witch with a
Seattle Mindspring addy, does that mean Paige can assume I'm a Witch? NO.
Point made.
>
> And I'd like to publicly commend Paige for posting names. I understand
zoot's
> reasoning behind not saying anything, but I also think it's about time
someone
> just exposed these girls so they have a little more incentive to take down
> their site.
Well, that's just silly. They don't have any more incentive. If I were a
Witch, and someone outted me, I wouldn't take my site down. Why should I?
Free publicity up the ying yang, here, folks. Zoot has done more to
publicize their site in the last two weeks than any three Witches combined.
The Witches aren't reasonable, nice people. They aren't embarassed by you,
or anyone else, disliking them. They don't care what you think. If they did,
they wouldn't be doing their stupid site in the first place.
And if she's naming names with lame evidence, how is this a good thing? What
if she decided that *you* were a Witch? Could you prove you weren't? Can I?
That, I believe, is the point. She doesn't like someone, and this is a
fantastic way to smear them without ever having to be accountable for her
accusations.
I think Paige should provide us with hard evidence. Real proof, not an ISP
in the same town as someone who happens to post to this forum. Until she
does, she's just a nasty person with no class. Period.
Gloves OFF.
Jess
WickdZoot
>
>Jess Mabe (and Yes, Virginia, that's my real name. Unlike some, I don't post
>under multiple names)
>
I'm not going to argue over the passing out of passwords or access in this
instance. Paige has admitted that her action wasn't right.
And I'm not into blaming the victim, either, so don't take this that way.
Maybe I'm just a cynical old hag, but I have to question the wisdom of posting
ANY personal details even in a semi-public forum. For God's sake, hackers can
break into egroups and find out anything personal you have posted on any
egroups mailing list!
I would no more post personal details like name, location or phone number on a
mailing list than I would set my hair on fire. And after hearing a few horror
stories, I would never post using my real life name again.
zoot
WickdZoot
Or my quick and dirty of how networks work.
And actually, I didn't name any names, now did I?
I'm glad you have friends. And your loyalty to your friends is admirable.
You can continue to remain loyal to your friends, and that's even admirable.
But don't try and tell me what I know and don't know; my company is spending
money on me to teach me these things and, heavens, I need to get some hands on
practice, after all.....
Telecommunications Essentials. Boring, but ultimately chock full of
information.
zoot
PS Hotmail, darling, is not an ISP. It's a free mail service.
You log into it AFTER you connect to your ISP.
DBKate
>posting
>ANY personal details even in a semi-public forum.
Indeed. This painfully obvious fact cuts my participation in the pity-party by
a goodly portion, "darling."
But, that's just me.
DBKate
(whose name ain't even "Kate" ...)
Lauryn
>addresses to various ISPs. Now, what is an ISP? Well, mine is Mindspring.
>Yours is Hotmail.
Um, Jess? Hotmail is a free online service. It has little or nothing to do
with ISPs.
And I'd like to publicly commend Paige for posting names. I understand zoot's
reasoning behind not saying anything, but I also think it's about time someone
just exposed these girls so they have a little more incentive to take down
their site.
Lauryn
WickdZoot
>you have *IS* Sarah Ellen's, do you? Nope.
>
Nope, evidently you didn't get it. I didn't say it was Sarah Ellen's, either.
It was Mary Sebasky's posts/email in question on interaccess.com.
>
>Never said you did. Unless you really are Paige.
Oh, wow! I'm somebody ELSE AGAIN! YEAH! I love that! I love all my
alternate identities! Let's see, I've been accused of being so many people,
and there was even a list admin who was convinced that Cici and I were the same
person...
Cici! We are now PAIGE!
>
>So this is what your company is paying you to learn, huh? Funny, I was never
>paid for anything remotely this useless. Lucky you.
I think I'm supposed to be wounded. However, since my company is in
telecommunications *anyway*, I'm baffled as to why....
Without telecommunications there would be no cell phone service (not a bad
thing, I admit), no mindspring, no earthlink.
Why, golly, I guess it IS useless!!!
>True, you are correct. Mindspring, however, is an ISP. And having an ISP
>address doesn't mean you have proof. End of story.
>
>Jess
Of course, darling. And there really was a third gunman on the grassy knoll.
zoot, highly amused again
DBKate
>alternate identities! Let's see, I've been accused of being so many people,
>and there was even a list admin who was convinced that Cici and I were the
>same
>person...
>
>Cici! We are now PAIGE!
Cool. And to think, I didn't even gain an ounce.
DBKate
~*~*~*~*~*~
" It wasn't every day he decided to seduce his best friend. But then it wasn't
every day his best friend rubbed an erection against his ass.."
-- snippet from slash fic
~*~*~*~*~*~
DBKate's Slash Page
http://www.geocities.com/dbkate/index.html
DBKate
>> And actually, I didn't name any names, now did I?
>
I love the deluded notion some folks have that only one person in the 'net
world doesn't like them and this singular person has to, for whatever reason,
artificially inflate their ranks.
Alas, sorry Charlie. Not this time.
DBKate
(whose ego's too big to give other folks credit anyway ...)
Snarkypup
> >>
> >> And actually, I didn't name any names, now did I?
> >
> >Never said you did. Unless you really are Paige.
>
Actually, that was sarcasm. Sorry you've misinterpreted it. You're CiCi,
she's Zoot, and Paige is Paige. I'm more than aware of who the hell you are,
take my word for it.
You know, after recovering from my migraine-induced posting frenzy yesterday
(and no, sorry, none of you caused the headache), I've thought about all of
this a bit more and here's my final say:
None of you have any proof against Sarah, or M. Sebasky. You never have had
any proof. If you did, you'd no doubt have posted it. That's what's so
effective about Paige's little smear campaign. There is no way to prove that
one *isn't* a Witch, anymore than you can prove someone *is*.
If I were to accuse you, CiCi, of being a Witch, how would you prove to me
that you aren't?
What if I said I had an ISP that matched yours and refused to believe you
when you denied it? What if I continued to smear you publicly, despite the
fact that all this ISP nonsense adds up to is the equivalent of saying:
"Well, Officer, that man lives in the same town and shops at the same corner
store as a Witch, therefore, he must be one."?
What if I said that given the nasty "newsletter" you publish, The Acid Desk,
which is filled with gossip about this community behind its back, I have
every reason to believe you capable of anything, including Witchiness?
How would you prove to me, and the community, that you aren't a Witch?
You know what? You couldn't. There's nothing you could say or do to prove
you aren't a Witch. Why? BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I don't know,
and neither do you, Zoot or Paige.
I've been spending far too much time trying to talk sense to stupid people
lately. I have better things to do with my time. So respond away, darlin',
because I won't be reading or responding to this thread any more. Heck,
email me at home. I'll just kill-file you.
You and Paige and Zoot. See, I do know how to tell you apart.
Jess
Lauryn
>them... well, mean. We created this site for us, and it's highly unlikely
>that without Paige's actions, anyone would ever have found it,
It's pretty rare to find a story by a Yes Virginia member that doesn't praise
and thank the mailing list in the author's notes. You've also started a
webring. Unlikely that anyone would find it? Not hardly.
>or bothered
>to hack into it. She knew what she was doing, and she did it because she's
>not a nice person.
As opposed to the witches she was trying to expose, who are just fantastic
people and wonderfully constructive members of the fanfic community.
Lauryn
Lauryn
>Mindspring is an ISP, which I also mentioned. So let's talk about that
>example, shall we? Mindspring and Earthlink, which are one company, support
>hundreds of thousands of people in my area. Several of them like the XF,
>probably. Some of them may even post here. So if there's a Witch with a
>Seattle Mindspring addy, does that mean Paige can assume I'm a Witch? NO.
>Point made.
I believe what zoot was trying to say- and I'm not a computer whiz, so feel
free to correct me if I'm wrong here - was that she has IP numbers that can
trace an e-mail to a specific *machine*, not just an Internet Service Provider.
Zoot could then connect the IP# from the witch e-mail to the IP# from a
non-witch post. So unless the poster and the witch are room mates or multiple
personalities, they are one and the same.
>> And I'd like to publicly commend Paige for posting names. I understand
>zoot's
>> reasoning behind not saying anything, but I also think it's about time
>someone
>> just exposed these girls so they have a little more incentive to take down
>> their site.
>
>Well, that's just silly. They don't have any more incentive. If I were a
>Witch, and someone outted me, I wouldn't take my site down. Why should I?
>Free publicity up the ying yang, here, folks.
Free publicity for their witch alter-egos. Their fanfic pen names, on the
other hand, might suffer. One poster even decided she was no longer going to
read Paige's stories because of what Paige did with her eGroups account. If
people are that outraged by what Paige did, I can only expect them to react in
a similar (if not stronger) fashion to the witches. We've already established
that most of the people who have contributed to these threads are not very fond
of the witches. I doubt if they'd find too many sympathetic readers once
exposed.
Zoot has done more to
>publicize their site in the last two weeks than any three Witches combined.
She's also done more to ridicule them. Vote zoot!
>The Witches aren't reasonable, nice people. They aren't embarassed by you,
>or anyone else, disliking them. They don't care what you think. If they did,
>they wouldn't be doing their stupid site in the first place.
Ah, but they must care at least a little bit, otherwise they wouldn't have
bothered with the cool, witchy names and the attempts at IP blocking. If they
really weren't worried about being disliked, they'd go out there with their
real names (or fanfic equivalents). That's the *only* thing they're afraid of.
<snip>
>I think Paige should provide us with hard evidence.
I agree. I'd do it myself, but that would involve posting private e-mails or
those sent to a private list.
Lauryn