I like the company I keep
Ambress
I've just reached an age where I find it more profitable and more conducive
to mental health to base my opinion of people on their individual behavior
and characteristics, rather than their group affiliations.
I would, however, be on their list if they asked me.
Ambress
--
Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
--Robert Frost
WickdZoot
zoot
Vote for Zoot! A Vote for Zoot Means One Less Victim Slagged!
"Scully has sex" is a sentence, not a plot. - Justin
Lara Means
<< I guess I've just reached an age where I find it more profitable and more
conducive to mental health to base my opinion of people on their individual
behavior and characteristics, rather than their group affiliations. >>
I guess I'm at that age, too.
I'm also at an age where I don't see much point in spending time on anything
that doesn't make me happy. Like this whole Witch thing. So I won't be
reading anything else about it on this newsgroup or the mailing list I'm on
where it's still being discussed ad nauseum, and this is my last post on the
subject.
Shouldn't we all be WRITING, anyway?
Lara Means
--------------------------------------------
"I've been called a lot of things, Detective. Skeptical, however, is not one of
them."
- Mulder, 'Mind's Eye'
Written by Lara Means (new URL) - http://www.geocities.com/larameans_2000
deb morley
> Shouldn't we all be WRITING, anyway?
I only have two word to add to this:
No shit! ;-)
deb morley
happily not having any opinion, since i'm "at that age", and
damn proud of it.
--
"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
--George W. Bush, Reuters, May 5, 2000
Dreamshaper
>and many of them belong to Yes, Virginia, though I myself do not. I guess
>I've just reached an age where I find it more profitable and more conducive
>to mental health to base my opinion of people on their individual behavior
>and characteristics, rather than their group affiliations.
What's this, Ambress? You hang out with that evil list, where they're all evil
and everything they do is evil and pro-WXW? Why, shame on you for liking people
despite the fact that someone's insinuated that someone else maybe might be
could be tactless, insensitive, un-funny and carrying around an inflated
opinion of herself!
Oh, wait. Applying my incredible talent for logic, I suddenly saw problems with
my above statement.
1) there are *all* kinds of tasteless, tactless, insensitive, humorless,
egotistical people *around here*, not just on lists. And there's proof in their
many nonsensical posts! Who knows who could be a witch, who is a troll, who is
a sockpuppet and who is just dumb??
2) I'm blaming you for something I do myself! I completely forgot that all
those lovely, talented folks I chat with are wicked, damnit. I also completely
forgot that I've mocked stories too--albeit in private, and with more humor and
less personal attacks than the witches use. Does this mean that I'll be kicked
off lists and considered some kind of evil conspirator?
3) Making generalizations about a group of 30+ people is silly. D'oh!
Especially based upon the fact that one person, who appears to have a grudge,
claims to have proof against *one other person*. One. Uno. Out of *thirty*. All
you folks who are thinking anti-YV thoughts, do you even know who the YV are?
Have you realized that many of the YV are incredibly talented, popular, and
respected authors? Have you even *thought* about what this 'witch hunt' is all
about, and who is being dragged through the mud because of it?
Well, gee. Looking at just those three little things makes me feel dumb. Some
might argue that I am--especially those who dislike sweet MSR and think all who
write it are only writing for the feedback (just to drag another personal
grudge into this already nutty thread).
But seriously, and as someone who chats with YV folks, I wish people could take
just a little time to think this through *logically*.
Now, I'm going to go off and make me some cookies, read a little fic, and
remind myself that it's all just online silliness and chocolate solves
everything.
Dreamshaper,
who apologizes to Sab and the rest of the YV for adding to the thread, but just
couldn't take it anymore!
S. Jameson
>remind myself that it's all just online silliness and chocolate solves
>everything.
Durn tootin'.
Suse
"Wherever you go, there you are."
bugs
drea...@aol.com (Dreamshaper) wrote:
> Oh, wait. Applying my incredible talent for logic, I suddenly saw
problems with
> my above statement.
>
> 1) there are *all* kinds of tasteless, tactless, insensitive,
humorless,
> egotistical people *around here*, not just on lists. And there's proof
in their
> many nonsensical posts! Who knows who could be a witch, who is a
troll, who is
> a sockpuppet and who is just dumb??
>
> 2) I'm blaming you for something I do myself! I completely forgot that
all
> those lovely, talented folks I chat with are wicked, damnit. I also
completely
> forgot that I've mocked stories too--albeit in private, and with more
humor and
> less personal attacks than the witches use. Does this mean that I'll
be kicked
> off lists and considered some kind of evil conspirator?
I just wanted to make the point: I've yet to meet a fanficcer who
doesn't engage in some, 'Oh, god, can you believe this!' forehead
slapping when reading.
However, although I realize we all have the power to Save/Copy/Paste, I
consider emails and chats to be 'private.' I don't know. Perhaps, with
the large chats that take place, now those lines have blurred. Maybe
persons were sitting, doing some skewing, listening to all the bitching
we all do, and assumed because there are *35* people in there, that's
constitutes public opinion and approval.
I dunno. But I consider it a big chasm that's been leaped, when comments
a few dozen may hear first hand are exchanged for a public page, that
can be and will be accessed by thousands, points and says, 'We think
this person is a fool.'
That's premeditated cruelty, as opposed to some light, thoughtless,
tossed off, cruelty.
But I don't want to get too far away from the point of this thread. I
know some people on the YV list and couldn't dream of them engaged in
this activity. You're just going to have to take our word for it, if you
have any doubts about 'those people.' Get to know an individual and
judge them then, rather than making assumptions from a distance. -- bugs
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Caer_Ibormeith
Okay, so call me an idiot...
(waiting three seconds...)
I'll bite. What *is* Yes, Virginia? I've seen it referred to, added as
lines, etc.
C_I
marasmus
You're not an idiot at all. I'm not surprised you're wondering.
Well, hasn't this week been fun? I think I'd rather stuff rabid weasels down
my trousers than go through another like it.
Yes Virginia is a group of people who communicate via a mailing list. It has
never been "proudly advertised" anywhere and it has never pretended to be
anything other than a small bunch of people shooting the breeze and helping
each other out.
These people have been kind enough to give my stories a really hard, honest
beta read, they have provided sympathy when my life slid down the
proverbial crapper and I am chuffed to know them.
If some people think that makes me a fool, then I am a fool <bows>
Now if ANYONE has any further questions, comments, recipes for chocolate
cake or jokes about nuns and iguanas, do please feel free to contact me on
mar...@aol.com
But could I ask you, as nicely as I possibly can, to take this offlist now.
Yours, (with a sideways indigenous Antipodean to the naysayers)
K.
--------------------------------
ghjg
cofax
"Caer_Ibormeith" <Caer_Ib...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I'll bite. What *is* Yes, Virginia? I've seen it referred to, added
> as lines, etc.
http://luperkal.simplenet.com/YesVirginia/webring/list.html
--
Seen plenty of clothes that I like but I won't go
anywhere nice for a while, all I want to do is
just sit here, write it all down and rest for a while.
Nicola Simpson
> > I'll bite. What *is* Yes, Virginia? I've seen it referred to, added
> > as lines, etc.
> http://luperkal.simplenet.com/YesVirginia/webring/list.html
All that provides is a list of members, I think. Though I'm not the
original poster, I'm very curious as to the philosophy/set-up of YV, which
doesn't seem to be available at this URL. Anyone want to enlighten me?
Nic
jerry
> All that provides is a list of members, I think.
Though I'm not the original poster, I'm very curious as to
the philosophy/set-up of YV, which doesn't seem to be available
at this URL. Anyone want to enlighten me?
I think marasmus summed it up earlier in the thread.
"Yes Virginia is a group of people who communicate
via a mailing list. It has never been "proudly advertised"
anywhere and it has never pretended to be
anything other than a small bunch of people
shooting the breeze and helping each other out."
I'm not a member. However, as this is a private list of friends, I don't
see any reason why they need to produce a philosophy or set-up. That would
be like a relative stranger coming up to me as I was sitting with a group of
friends at a restaurant and asking us "So what is the philosophy/set-up of
your friendship?"
At least that's the way it seems to me.
Jerry
Michaela
>see any reason why they need to produce a philosophy or set-up. That would
>be like a relative stranger coming up to me as I was sitting with a group of
>friends at a restaurant and asking us "So what is the philosophy/set-up of
>your friendship?"
Jerry? Marry me.
I've been watching this whole <word that rhymes with Bitch> thing and have
chosen to take Kipler's sage advice and not contribute to their notoriety by
speaking of them. But then the happenings of a private e-mail list ended up
here, much to my bewilderment, and I had to respond to Jery's comment.
As a member of a private list of friends in the XF community (a list that is
becoming practically crumbly with age we've been together so long <g>), frankly
I find this whole idea of being accountable to any part of the fanfic world for
our private business kind of hysterical.
I'm trying to picture what the Primal Screamer philosophy or mission statement
would be.."Eat, drink and be merry" "Me Want Fic" "We're Not As Bizarre As You
Think We Are -- Or Are We?"? Would we be required to file this mission
statement with the SEC? Issue press releases on our activity (or lack thereof)
with forward-looking statements disclaiming that anything we say is not
intended to affect stock prices? File for incorporation?
If so, I demand to be VP of Alcohol and Sin for the Primal Screamers. I've
earned it, dammit. And if I don't get it, I promise not to come here to atxc
accuse any fellow Screamers of being bitches, snitches, or anything in the
"itch" genre... <g>
Michaela
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
"The very concept of 'informed consent' implies that once you are informed, you
will consent."
"In the absence of drugs and the presence of preparedness, nature is
efficient."
viole...@my-deja.com
mick...@aol.communicate (Michaela) wrote:
>
>
> Jerry? Marry me.
>
Jerry? When you're done marrying Michaela, will you both marry me? :)
Debalex
"Ambress" <Ambr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> and many of them belong to Yes, Virginia, though I myself do not. I
guess
> I've just reached an age where I find it more profitable and more
conducive
> to mental health to base my opinion of people on their individual
behavior
> and characteristics, rather than their group affiliations.
>
> I would, however, be on their list if they asked me.
>
> Ambress
>
Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
I don't think all the Virginians are witches, but it seems obvious that
some of them are. Time for the Virginians to clean house.
WickdZoot
>Where there's smoke, there's fire.
>Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
>
>I don't think all the Virginians are witches, but it seems obvious that
>some of them are. Time for the Virginians to clean house.
>
While I think the old adages do contain a germ of truth, and while the evidence
has convinced me that your conclusion is correct, I can't say that blaming the
Virginians is just or right.
In fact, pointing a finger at all Virginians is just plain wrong. It's like
blaming an entire congregation when only a few of the members are sinners. I
strongly believe in the integrity of the majority of the YVs; if the Witches
are lying boldfaced to their friends and taking advantage of trust, the YVs are
certainly not to blame for believing in people who are apparently very
convincing, even in the face of the evidence available.
The YVs as a group are no more responsible for the Witches actions than, say,
Scullyfic would be responsible for any who might be subbed to that group.
zoot
Vote Zoot! A Vote for Zoot means One Less Victim Slagged
Vote Zoot 2000
http://www.geocities.com/cassandraxf/index.html
Nicola Simpson
> Nicola Simpson <nsim...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote in message
> the philosophy/set-up of YV, which doesn't seem to be available
> at this URL. Anyone want to enlighten me?
> I'm not a member. However, as this is a private list of friends, I don't
> see any reason why they need to produce a philosophy or set-up. That would
> be like a relative stranger coming up to me as I was sitting with a group of
> friends at a restaurant and asking us "So what is the philosophy/set-up of
> your friendship?"
Several YV members have been kind enough to e-mail me privately to let me
know the spirit of the group. I was looking for a "philosophy or set-up"
because I didn't even know that YV was a "private list of friends." I
didn't know if it was limited to fic discussion, fic writers, fans, or
what. That's what I wanted to know.
My apologies if I offended you, Jerry.
Nicola Simpson
E-mail: nicola....@ualberta.ca
Michaela
>>
>
>Jerry? When you're done marrying Michaela, will you both marry me? :)
>
Oh cool! I read this and started hearing the 70s porno <chickachickawaaawaaa>
music in my head. heeheee
Michaela
>Where there's smoke, there's fire.
>Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
And a few of my personal favorites...
When you point one finger, the other three are pointing back at yourself.
Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.
Or, to paraphrase, "Judgmental much?"
MIchaela
Kim
>I don't think all the Virginians are witches, but it seems obvious that
>some of them are. Time for the Virginians to clean house.
Accusations are cheap.
Proof is much more expensive.
Persuasion is more expensive still.
Debalex, you're coming off cheap.
I know and like a lot of YV people. I know they're hurt about being smeared
like this. I wonder who you are, what you *think* you know, how you came by
that information and what you think it proves.
If you can prove ANY person to be a Witch, do so. I'm sure we'd all be quite
interested.
If you can't prove what you're saying is 'obvious' then you might not want to
toss around accusations and judgments.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.simplenet.com
"I'm in your hands." Skinner, The X-Files, SR819
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
Kim
> mick...@aol.communicate (Michaela) wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jerry? Marry me.
>>
>
>Jerry? When you're done marrying Michaela, will you both marry me? :)
I'd just like to say, for the record, that even though I'm a friend of both
Jerry and Michaela, I'm not wearing a damned bridesmaid's dress with a big bow
on the ass.
Michaela
>Jerry and Michaela, I'm not wearing a damned bridesmaid's dress with a big
>bow
>on the ass.
Not even if it's mint green taffeta, darling? Oh the tragedy of it...Jerry,
Violet, the weddings are off. If Kim won't wear a bow on her ass for us, it's
just not worth it. <g>
<blowing kisses to Kim while daintily dabbing the tears away>
Michaela, devastated but vowing to go on...much like Celine Dion and that damn
Titanic song...
WickdZoot
some, Debalex, I'd be pleased to have it.
I have only slight acquaintance with a few of the YVs, but *I* certainly don't
think that they are witches.
For one thing, they write too well. I've read two of the Witches, and believe
me, not even close to most of the YVs who are posting.
zoot, who wishes people would remember this is not about Yes, Virginia.
viole...@my-deja.com
mick...@aol.communicate (Michaela) wrote:
> >Lie down with the dogs, get up with fleas.
> >Where there's smoke, there's fire.
> >Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
>
> And a few of my personal favorites...
>
> When you point one finger, the other three are pointing back at
yourself.
> Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.
>
My own personal favourite is, "Red sky at morning, sailor take
warning. Red sky at night, sailor's delight."
viole...@my-deja.com
mick...@aol.communicate (Michaela) wrote:
Jerry,
> Violet, the weddings are off. If Kim won't wear a bow on her ass for
us, it's
> just not worth it. <g>
>
> <blowing kisses to Kim while daintily dabbing the tears away>
>
> Michaela, devastated but vowing to go on...much like Celine Dion and
that damn
> Titanic song...
> *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
> "The very concept of 'informed consent' implies that once you are
informed, you
> will consent."
>
> "In the absence of drugs and the presence of preparedness, nature is
> efficient."
>
I'm devastated.
-- Violet, crushed (but *fragrant*)
paigec...@hotmail.com
"If you can't prove what you're saying is 'obvious' then you might not
want to toss around accusations and judgments."
Well, as a former member of Yes Virginia, I tossed around more than
just accusations. I gave folks my password to their group so they
could read and judge for themselves.
Yes, Virginia...so many naughty messages on your archive. I wonder
what the list moms at Scullyfic might think?
Gasp...will all those flames about Chronicle X come back to "bite us"?
Michaela
>
>
Wow...I just love the smell of idiocy.
Michaela
Kim
>I'd be very interested myself. I have proof of three Witches, and if you
>have
>some, Debalex, I'd be pleased to have it.
Wait! Hold it! Time out!
You have "proof" of the identity three Witches?
What in God's name has kept you from posting this?
Whatever your reasons, there's no time like the present for the facts to come
out about this. Knowledge is power and knowledge that defeats the Witches'
anonymity is the power we all need to blow them far far away. There's been more
than enough hurt about this, within YV if nowhere else. Keeping the proof to
yourself could only perpetuate the Witches' existence and keep everyone stirred
up about this.
So, bring on the proof. Lay it out there. End the Witches reign and the misery
in YV and do a good thing for all of us.
shannono
> Well, as a former member of Yes Virginia, I tossed around more
than
> just accusations. I gave folks my password to their group so
they
> could read and judge for themselves.
Let me see if I understand this: You handed out the password to a
private organization of which you were a member? You violated the
trust and privacy with which you had been entrusted? And you are
*proud* of this?
I can tell you one thing. I would certainly never trust you with
a single word of *mine*. And it will be a cold day in hell before
I do anything with any message from you except route it directly
into my recycle bin.
A private list, chat, or IM is just that: Private. Snarkiness,
bitching, complaints, and gripes are not only allowed; they're
expected. We all need a place to vent, and that's what those
PRIVATE conversations are for.
Violating a confidence in any manner is at minimum rude; boasting
about it is revolting. The very thought turns my stomach.
Shannon
Friend of Virginia
Margu...@operamail.com
> I'm devastated.
There, there. We can still get taffeta dresses with bows on the butt,
complete with shoes and a handbag dyed to match.
> -- Violet, crushed (but *fragrant*)
Meg, late to the party and flagrant
Ambress
>Lie down with the dogs, get up with fleas.
>Where there's smoke, there's fire.
>Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
>
>I don't think all the Virginians are witches, but it seems obvious that
>some of them are. Time for the Virginians to clean house.
I like dogs. I would rather lie down with my smelly old, loyal, gentle,
friendly, intelligent dog, whether or not she had a few fleas, than some
human beings, who, however clean, are none of the above.
Oh, is this the cliche game? I am so sorry, how about these:
Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
America, love it or leave it.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Make new friends, but keep the old
one is silver, but the other's gold.
Do unto others as you would be done by.
Sorry, I am not very good at this game, I was taught not to borrow other
people's thoughts, but to think for myself.
Ambress
Tesla
hand. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
--
"Some days it just doesn't pay to chew through the restraints."--Anonymous
WickdZoot
>
>You have "proof" of the identity three Witches?<<
Pardon me, I stated that badly. Post in haste, repent at leisure. What I
should have said is that I have in hand proof of two IP addresses and ISPs.
Those have led me to certain conclusions. For the first email, I have been
able to locate only one poster via Deja news with the same provider who is also
connected with the X-Files newsgroups. For the second, I have traced the IP
headers back to the Utah Educational Network and forwarded said email to the
system administrator.
One other party of whom I'm aware has the third bit of ISP information, and
again, I've been able to find only one person with this ISP posting in any
connection to the X Files newsgroup. However, I do not have a copy of this in
hand.
Our sysops where I work can connect IP and login, and I'm told by my son (thank
God, gainfully employed at last by an ISP) that logins can be connected to the
kind of temporary IP addresses assigned via dial up accounts.
I've said this several times in posts in these various witch threads, but to
publicly post my conclusions--and incidentally, as I've since discovered, the
conclusions of others who have had other experiences with this group (Witches,
not YV)--would be highly irresponsible until I've gotten a response from the
sys admins themselves. And to be honest, privacy issues being what they are,
they may not tell me f**k all, they may deal with it privately. I don't know
what kinds of privacy laws govern ISPs. You, Kim, may have better advice to
offer me.
I will tell you what I privately told one member of the YVs in email: I don't
give a rat's tail who they are. My goal is to either inconvenience or
embarrass them enough to either modify the freaking site to a true critique
page or remove the reviews. That's it. Period. Full stop.
I repeat what I said earlier, this is not about the YVs.
It's about the Witches. Period. Full stop.
If, as I believe, based on my conclusions, the list has a few ringers on it, it
wouldn't be the first time that happened in the history of mailing lists. If
there are, this does not taint the YVs, who have done nothing wrong. Trusting
people you believe to be friends is not wrong. There may be times when it is
foolish, but it is not wrong.
These are the IP addresses and providers. This is *all* I'm going to post
publicly, and I've posted it before several times.
This is the most recent:
nues.ics.k12.ut.us [205.123.68.5]
As I posted earlier somewhere, this is an offshoot of the Utah Educational
Network, and services a handful of rural school districts in Utah, north of
Salt Lake City.
This was what I received around the end of December:
internet.chi.interaccess.com [207.70.102.65]
Interaccess serves both Illinois and Wisconsin, I'm told. However, I believe
that the chi indicates Chicago.
zoot
Kimberly
> Make new friends, but keep the old
> one is silver, but the other's gold.
>
Hey! I remember that from Brownies! ;-)
Kim
>I, for one, am rapturously pleased to see Kim taking her vorpal blade in
>hand. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
I'd rather beat my sword into a ploughshare, really, but I cannot. I've spent
time with a number of truly nice people who happen to be in YV and I feel for
them.
It's time for this nonsense - the Witchery, the accusations, the smears, the
revenge, all of it - to end. It really is nonsense.
What can any of us do but try to speak up for an end to this?
I hope I've done that.
Thanks, Tesla, for the greeting and welcome. I appreciate it!
Dreamshaper
>
>
>> Make new friends, but keep the old
>> one is silver, but the other's gold.
>>
>
>Hey! I remember that from Brownies! ;-)
Mmmm, brownies.
Mmmm, chocolate.
<saliva drips on the keyboard>
Let's go way out into left field here guys--anyone got a simple marvelous
recipe for brownies? I try to make them from scratch but always end up with
little...I dunno how to describe them. Crap Biscuits, perhaps?
Dreamshaper
PMSy, suffering cravings, looking for good fic at Kim's site cause it came up
today for the first time in a week, and wondering if I could make wood taste
like chocolate if I pretended hard enough.
WickdZoot
>like chocolate if I pretended hard enough.
>
<sadly> Nope. Trust me, I've tried.
Kimberly
> Dreamshaper
> PMSy, suffering cravings, looking for good fic at Kim's site cause it came
up
> today for the first time in a week, and wondering if I could make wood
taste
> like chocolate if I pretended hard enough.
Damn Xoom! I'm sorry! I will be moving again...just as soon as I can find a
place to house everything without paying thru the nose!
And the wood thing - trust me - that doesn't work...sigh..
Kimberly ;-)
Sabine
news:8pmlrn$2j9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Well, as a former member of Yes Virginia, I tossed around more than
> just accusations. I gave folks my password to their group so they
> could read and judge for themselves.
PAIGE.
I really thought we would be able to work this out. But this is SO DEEPLY
UNCOOL. SO VERY, VERY UNCOOL.
Now lemme just get this straight:
THE WITCHES: take stories posted to the "public" newsgroups and mock them on
their site.
PAIGE: takes messages posted to the assuredly PRIVATE mailinglist and uses
them to spread rumors about the authors.
THE WITCHES: critique writers' skills
PAIGE: slanders writers' PERSONALITIES
So tell us, Paige, please, what exactly it is you're accusing the Witches
of? That's not a rhetorical question. Have you ASKED yourself this?
And I defy anyone to WONDER why I trust my listmembers at their word before
I'll trust Paige.
Jesus.
I'm going away now. This sucks. What a godawful shame.
Sabine
Sophia Jirafe
need the headache. I have also heard about this whole 'witch hunt'
solely by proxy, from references in chat and forwarded posts. My
position on this debate falls somewhere between 'The witches weren't
nice' and 'Why the hell is everyone trying to hurt a group of people
whom they know only through stories, based on the alleged actions of a
few members of the group?' And then I remember how much everyone hates
so-called cliques, and the fact that private groups will form among any
large gathering of people, and I'm right back in fourth grade again....
However, this post got to me. I understand that the witches did
something to you that hurt, Paige. I understand that you no longer want
to associate with your former friends. That's acceptable. But to try and
hurt *every* *single* *one* of a group of people, just because of what a
few people said in a snarky way...Paige, you're a well-liked writer. You
write good stories. How many readers do you think were turned away just
because some immature folks insulted one of your stories? I'm not
condoning the fact that you were attacked. But it *happened*, it's
*over*, and trying to drag down a group of innocent writers just seems
wrong.
I don't know any of the members of YV very well, but I will say that I
for one honestly don't care what members of the list did or did not do.
I say nasty things privately. Everyone does. It's human. I think it is
entirely up to the list to police their own members. At the moment,
they're sticking by them. And, in my very humble opinion, I believe we
should respect their judgement.
Names have been tossed around. You all are free to never read any of
those writers' works again. Hell, you're free to keep flaming the hell
out of them--welcome to the internet. But this cruel, deliberate hurting
of a large group of people makes no sense. I can only blame it on the
hatred of private groups so prevalent among, well, humankind in general.
I'm sorry people are being hurt because others want to be part of the
perceived 'in group.'. Obviously, as been said time and time again this
past week--some people need to grow up.
-Sophia
--
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's
opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
--Oscar Wilde
Dreamshaper
>place to house everything without paying thru the nose!
>
>And the wood thing - trust me - that doesn't work...sigh..
>Kimberly ;-)
>
<chewing sadly on a piece of paper> This is all that's left of my computer
desk. I'm sitting on the floor with comp and monitor stacked in front of me,
perusing fic and pretending *Real Hard*. <sigh>
Anyway, Kimberly, don't apologize. We all know that Xoom and Geocities et al
can be difficult bastards, especially to XF archives, it seems. <G> I'm just
glad it came back up again, and wasn't lost!
Dreamshaper
contemplating the dining room table. the computer desk didn't taste *too*
bad...
Teddi Litman
Sabine wrote:
> THE WITCHES: critique writers' skills
... and their abilities to perform their day jobs or pursue future careers
based on their opinions of skills writing fanfic.
Teddi
WickdZoot
> ... and their abilities to perform their day jobs or pursue future careers
>based on their opinions of skills writing fanfic.
>
Thank you, Teddi. Let's get the attention back where it belongs in this issue.
Sabine, you know where I stand.
viole...@my-deja.com
Wow, Paige. I can't believe you would have done that. I'm really
speechless. Not that I'm defending the Witches, but you do kinda make
them look virtuous when you do stuff like this, if only by comparison.
cofax
> Well, as a former member of Yes Virginia, I tossed around more than
> just accusations. I gave folks my password to their group so they
> could read and judge for themselves.
<blinks at screen in astonishment>
<looks again; nope, those words are still there>
I don't think I have ever, in 10 years on Usenet (off and on), heard of
a more vile, malicious, heinous thing.
Paige:
I am sorry you were flamed by the Witches. It was nasty and unprovoked
behavior on their part, and frankly no one deserves what they do on
their site. If I were a Witch, I would be ashamed. But I'm not.
If you had a problem with an individual you thought was a Witch the
mature thing to do would be to bring it up with them on an individual
basis.
If you didn't like the company on YV you should have said your goodbyes
and left, as several other writers have done.
Yes, occasionally people on YV said unkind things about other human
beings. We are human, and I won't apologize for being human. But
clearly in your cursory view of our discussions you missed all the beta
that went on, and the recs, and the support, the heart-to-heart
conversations about life, love, and plankworthy men. You were
evidently inhabiting another planet where all we had to say were nasty
things.
But nothing in any culture, under any circumstances, justifies THAT.
You gave out the password to a list where people forwarded their real
names and addresses, gave directions to their houses, and talked about
the most intimate details of their lives. A list where you were treated
respectfully as a fellow writer, and never abused in any way.
How on EARTH do you sleep at night?
And what do you think the members of YOUR LIST will think when they see
your post?
I hope to god no one actually took advantage of the opportunity you so
graciously offered.
Yes, Virginia, I am--
cofax
and effing proud of it
--
Seen plenty of clothes that I like but I won't go
anywhere nice for a while, all I want to do is
just sit here, write it all down and rest for a while.
jerry
journ...@aol.com wrote:
> >I'd just like to say, for the record, that even though
I'm a friend of both Jerry and Michaela, I'm not wearing a damned
bridesmaid's dress with a big bow on the ass.
>
> Not even if it's mint green taffeta, darling? Oh the tragedy of it...
on her ass for us, it's just not worth it. <g>
>
> <blowing kisses to Kim while daintily dabbing the tears away>
Wha.....???
Well isn't this just the way things go. I get two proposals and they're
promptly rescinded. I am now going off in a huff.
HU.....Jerry.....FF
P.S. Michaela, sing that damn song in my presence and you and I will not
only not marry, we will not speak. <g>
jerry
A private list, chat, or IM is just that: Private. Snarkiness,
bitching, complaints, and gripes are not only allowed; they're
expected. We all need a place to vent, and that's what those
PRIVATE conversations are for.
Violating a confidence in any manner is at minimum rude; boasting
about it is revolting. The very thought turns my stomach.
---------
Well said, Shannon.
Ditto.
Jerry
marasmus
> Well, as a former member of Yes Virginia, I tossed around more than
> just accusations. I gave folks my password to their group so they
> could read and judge for themselves.
>
> Yes, Virginia...so many naughty messages on your archive. I wonder
> what the list moms at Scullyfic might think?
For the record, since I am sick of this puerile crap:
Do you have any idea how you just contradicted the entire basis of your own
campaign?
I can only think that the air up there on the imaginary moral high ground is
very, very thin and some kind of hypoxia has ensued.
Forwarding =private= emails is morally dubious enough.
And it's pretty nasty to expose 30 people to flames through snide insinuations
and wild accusations when your "absolute proof" is an IP address for Chicago
and some half-arsed forensic linguistics. (and I'm not American so correct me
if I'm wrong, but isn't Chicago pretty bloody BIG)
But passing out a password to a private archive and encouraging other people to
go there and look is just beyond redemption. How does this differ
in intent from what the Witches do?
Should everyone on your new list watch what they say just in case you're
downloading it for later use?
If you are intent on making your name an emetic for right-thinking people
around the world, just keep going the way you are.
For the record: No one thinks the Witches are big or clever. If you ignore them
they have no power. You can't be offended by what you don't read but you've
just ensured that most everyone has visited their site.
Well done.
At least Zoot is sparing people that tedium by setting up her own voting form.
> Gasp...will all those flames about Chronicle X come back to "bite us"?
I don't recall any flames. I recall a long discussion about archives, rec sites
and gossamer. It was honest but it wasn't particularly toasty. Most of all it
was PRIVATE.
For the GODDAMNED record, I'm not all sunshine and sweetness but I have never
said anything in private which I would not be prepared to defend in public.
In fact this is the most unpleasant thing I have ever posted in public or
private.
So you've made this silly, fun hobby a completely miserable experience for me
and more than 20 other good people who have tried not to react to your
increasingly bizarre posts.
Congratulations. May that bring you much joy.
...........
...........
Kimberly
> I really thought we would be able to work this out. But this is SO DEEPLY
> UNCOOL. SO VERY, VERY UNCOOL.
You know, at least she has the balls to admit to the actions that she has
taken instead of hiding behind false names and pretending.
Can everyone say the same? If you can then disregard this post.
Now for those of you who can't, listen up.
It all comes out in the end. Be it Witches or DebbilMice or what ever group
that will pop up in the future with the guise of "helping others". Sooner
or later it comes out in the wash. Hell, even *I* even know who most of the
DebbilMice where and I am certainly not a player in this community. For
those of them who came clean I can at least forgive them their folly. For
those who can't and continue to play this finger pointing game...well, I
have no respect for you what so ever.
That goes double for the Witches.
Please, there are so many socks around here, so many cowards that will never
come out and say look, here is what I did, judge me for that. Instead they
give you the sweet and watered down version.
Hell, Brandon just posted bits of a private e-mail, but that's okay? We all
fuck up. Every last one of us.
Enough already!
Look if you don't have enough back stabbing, petty shit in your life that
you have to inflict it upon the rest of us that are here simply for the
pleasure of reading, then get the fuck out.
If you've fucked up, come clean. Personally, I'd respect you a hell of a lot
more for it.
But make sure before you pass judgment on others that you too can say that
your halo is shiny and on straight.
Kimberly
WickdZoot
>and some half-arsed forensic linguistics. (and I'm not American so correct me
>
>if I'm wrong, but isn't Chicago pretty bloody BIG)
Time out.
*I* traced back and hunted down the IP addresses and ISP. And yes, Chicago is
pretty fucking big, you're right. However, the XF community of posters and
writers is not. Presumably you're referring to *my* 'half-arsed forensic
linguistics"?
I don't know what went on during Paige's sojourn with the YVs. But I have to
tell you, it's amazing how all these lovely, sweet, fine, upstanding people are
a) both willing to say outright, to quote Sabine, that she doesn't care if any
of her list members are witches, and to flame the hell out of someone who
apparently feels hard done by.
For the record, *I* am zoot. Paige is Paige. I bear theYVs no ill will, and I
am not running a campaign against them. I am, as I have clearly stated about a
gazillion times, running a campaign to embarrass the witches by putting the
spotlight on their awards.
And whatever Paige may have done, all these sweet, kind, fine upstanding folks
have matched it in their response.
Remember: Zoot is zoot. Zoot is the one with the 'half-arsed forensic
linguistics', apparently. Zoot is not Paige and Paige is not Zoot.
zoot, wondering if there is deliberate misdirection going on
Jintian Li
Sophia Jirafe <skept...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> few people said in a snarky way...Paige, you're a well-liked writer. You
> write good stories. How many readers do you think were turned away just
> because some immature folks insulted one of your stories? I'm not
> condoning the fact that you were attacked. But it *happened*, it's
> *over*, and trying to drag down a group of innocent writers just seems
> wrong.
Thank you. I wish you *would* post to the newsgroup more. There are
simply too many hotheaded and vengeful posts flying these days.
Paige, I don't really know you, but I *do* consider a lot of Yes
Virginians to be my friends. My personal biases do not, however,
influence my opinion about the actions you admit to here. Others have
said it better -- you violated the trust and respectful friendship of a
group of people who I believe, on the whole, had absolutely *nothing* to
do with the Witches.
Please follow the more clear-thinking example of zoot and others and
realize that Yes Virginia DOES NOT EQUAL Wicked X Witch. Take your
personal issues into private email, where I'm sure YV is more than
capable of handling them.
Oh, and Debalex. Unless you're a Yes Virginian yourself, I doubt it's
any of your business what they do with their "house." Next time, try not
to be such an obvious sock.
Jintian
thoroughly disgusted
Dreamshaper
>Pam said:
>
>>
>>Dreamshaper wrote:
>>> It's 4am. Do you know where Dreamshaper is? That's right, she's in
>>> front of her computer, letting cats in and out because cats always
>>> want in and out at 4am, and wishing she didn't have a uterus.
>>> TMI? Never. :)
>>
>>You're letting cats in and out of your computer at 4am,
>>or letting cats in and out of your uterus at 4am?
>>
>><boggles>
>
>You know, there's a 'pussy' joke to be made here, but I'm just not going to
>do
>it.
>
><blows raspberries at myself>
Kim. Bad. I just got chocolate milk all over my monitor and keyboard and I
think there's some on my khakis. No more humor at my expense! ;-)
And just for the record, there are not and never have been cats in my uterus.
(How often does one get to type a sentence like that? I do believe it shall
become my new sig, as it is just too fun to read). The cats were climbing the
screen door trying to get in and out of the house!
Really. I swear. :)
Dreamshaper
amused by twisted humor
Circe
> THE WITCHES: critique writers' skills
The witches don't "critique" anything. They make fun of writers and their
stories. Let's not legitimize what they do by calling it critiquing when it is
anything but.
--
Circe XFW #32
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.
Kim
>
>Kim, in fact, these ip addresses come from the witch mailbox at Yahoo.
Ah!
Well, so that can be said to be fairly witchy, no ifs, ands or butts. But how
do these addresses connect to any other person in fandom? I'm still not clear
on that. Maybe that's not yet established.
>
>You assume that there is an alterior motive for my campaign against the
>witches. I won't debate you here, because nobody else gives a hoot.
I think you'd be surprised about that.
You're
>wrong.
That is very possible.
<shrugging> Believe whatever you like.
Oh I will.
>
>I'm not going to discuss who has what personal motives in public or what
>personal motives have existed in the past. There isn't a person on this
>newsgroup who can't throw stones in that regard. Except, perhaps, for the
>lurkers.
We all have personal motives. One agenda might be "to have fun in the fic
world." The Witches have that motivation. You do. I do. We all do. It's just
how we go about it.
>That's it. I'm going back to writing some fic, fan and original, enjoying
>my
>employed son, my new carpet, my sweet daughter who has recovered from the
>onslaught of puberty, and my pals.
All that sounds good.
>
>As for declaring a victory, it's not a victory until the reviews are taken
>down.
>
I disagree. I disagree that the 'reviews' are worthy of that word, and I
disagree that there can be any victory for anyone. There is no 'winning' when
so many have been so upset by the Witches. And even though they don't probably
believe it, the Witches have won exactly nothing, too.
Binah
"Sabine" <emi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> THE WITCHES: critique writers' skills
No, they ridicule and laugh and call it critique.
I wonder if they really think they're accomplishing anything other than
creating discord in the XF fanfic community? I guess they've deluded
themselves into thinking they are big bad rebels who are gonna
revolutionize XF fanfic.
What they don't realize is that out there, there *are* people who like
those stories. Even the much maligned Erin Blair has her fans. It
doesn't matter if the witches do not. Some people like wrestling and
some like Masterpiece Theatre. You cannot shame everyone into making
Masterpiece Theatre, and not everyone would want you to. That's a
lesson many of us have learned over the years of reading fanfic, and
not one learned automatically or easily.
--
Binah
XFW #1013 ggg
Girlie Mafiosa X2K
內躬偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻齯滌`偕中滌`偕�Mulder and Scully? They are so doing it. Cope.
--shamelessly paraphrased from someone's webpage
DBKate
>your victory, and be cool?
Just curious, but I saw no "time-out" anywhere. I *did* see an incoherent
message on the "Happy Thoughts" page along with an unfunny cartoon warning off
the writers of "Crap Fic" and a very Terminator-like "We'll Be Back" slogan
somewhere, but no "time-out."
Anyone care to explain what I've missed?
DBKate
WickdZoot
>
>I wonder if they really think they're accomplishing anything other than
>creating discord in the XF fanfic community? I guess they've deluded
>themselves into thinking they are big bad rebels who are gonna
>revolutionize XF fanfic.
>
>What they don't realize is that out there, there *are* people who like
>those stories. Even the much maligned Erin Blair has her fans. It
>doesn't matter if the witches do not. Some people like wrestling and
>some like Masterpiece Theatre. You cannot shame everyone into making
>Masterpiece Theatre, and not everyone would want you to. That's a
>lesson many of us have learned over the years of reading fanfic, and
>not one learned automatically or easily.
>
>--
>Binah
>
Good glory, Binah, that's three times this week that we've agreed. I think one
of us oughta be scared. <g>
zoot
xenodeno
journ...@aol.com (Kim) wrote:
> Pam said:
> >You're letting cats in and out of your computer at 4am,
> >or letting cats in and out of your uterus at 4am?
> >
> ><boggles>
Reminds me of the old Richard Gere/gerbil rumor.
Xenodeno
Kim
>
>>declare the Witch "time out" as
>>your victory, and be cool?
>
>Just curious, but I saw no "time-out" anywhere. I *did* see an incoherent
>message on the "Happy Thoughts" page along with an unfunny cartoon warning
>off
>the writers of "Crap Fic" and a very Terminator-like "We'll Be Back" slogan
>somewhere, but no "time-out."
>
Well it seemed kind of like a 'time out' to me. Maybe that's not the right
word.
"We'll be back" sort of implies "We're not here right now" at a minimum.
Whatever. They can blow away with the nearest tornado and it'll be a breath of
fresh air for all of us.
Michaela
>only not marry, we will not speak. <g>
Okay, fine. But you leave me no choice but to sing "Islands In the Stream"
instead. <eg>
Michaela
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
"The very concept of 'informed consent' implies that once you are informed, you
will consent."
"In the absence of drugs and the presence of preparedness, nature is
efficient."
WickdZoot
>
>Well, so that can be said to be fairly witchy, no ifs, ands or butts. But how
>do these addresses connect to any other person in fandom? I'm still not clear
>on that. Maybe that's not yet established.
>
>
Established? Oh, I don't know, depends on what you've looked at.
>>
>>You assume that there is an alterior motive for my campaign against the
>>witches. I won't debate you here, because nobody else gives a hoot.
>
>I think you'd be surprised about that.
>
Do tell.
><shrugging> Believe whatever you like.
>
>Oh I will.
Precisely. And that differs from what I believe about the witches how?
>>
>We all have personal motives. One agenda might be "to have fun in the fic
>world." The Witches have that motivation. You do. I do. We all do. It's just
>how we go about it.
Yes. And?
>All that sounds good.
T'is, actually. <admiring carpet again> Oh, of course, I'm also still
campaigning for the Wicked Awards.
>I disagree. I disagree that the 'reviews' are worthy of that word, and I
>disagree that there can be any victory for anyone. There is no 'winning' when
>so many have been so upset by the Witches. And even though they don't
>probably
>believe it, the Witches have won exactly nothing, too.
We must agree to disagree then on our definition of victory. I'd be interested
to hear what the Witches victims would consider victory, and am perfectly
willing to take a majority vote from that constituency.
>
As for the Witches winning nothing, I think we finally agree on something.
zoot, bouncing back to write Elderberry smut....
>
>*~*~*~*~*~*
>Kim
>Journ...@aol.com
>http://journeytox.simplenet.com
>
>"I'm in your hands." Skinner, The X-Files, SR819
>
>"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard
>Kipling
>
>
>
>
>
viole...@my-deja.com
I have two things to say:
1. To Dreamshaper's cats: Run! Mommy's having a Bad Day!
2. I wish to goodness any of the people in this interminable thread
would write some fic, instead.
Tesla
Okay, now my panties are officially untwisted.
I didn't know what a sock puppet was either.
>We all screw up, every
>last damn one of us.
But hey, didn't I just admit I'm a lawyer?
By personality and training, I am incapable of admitting I f---, that I
f----
It's like Fonzie trying to say he's wr-wrong.
:-}
Hey! How about a dream time of Binah, Kim & me?
--
"Some days it just doesn't pay to chew through the restraints."--Anonymous
Tesla
>2. I wish to goodness any of the people in this >interminable thread
>would write some fic, instead.
Darn it.
This is what I'm doing with my computer instead of writing.
My Beta will get me if I don't watch out.
Tesla
okay, writing MSR was just a hypothetical. Leave me in my river in Egypt
with all the kindly crocodiles, m'kay?
Tesla
SOME occasion...how about night court?
Tesla
bunch of internet crap? Death, starvation, war and all the evil works of
the Nazis is just the same as "snarky" comments on fanfiction? Are you
serious?
And this is not a slippery slope here---you couldn't ignore the Nazis by not
clicking on to their webpage.
Kimberly
> Shut your hole, you stupid sockpuppeted cowardly piece of dung.
>
Wait....wait, one second. Who is the sock supposed to be this time? Maybe
it's easier to find them when you have so many missing mates in your own
drawer, but where is the red flag here?
Kimberly- who is confused as hell.
Becky C.
<skept...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>However, this post got to me. I understand that the witches did
>something to you that hurt, Paige. I understand that you no longer want
>to associate with your former friends. That's acceptable. But to try and
>hurt *every* *single* *one* of a group of people, just because of what a
>few people said in a snarky way...Paige, you're a well-liked writer. You
>write good stories. How many readers do you think were turned away just
>because some immature folks insulted one of your stories?
Sophia is right and makes good sense. Paige, I wasn't aware that you
had been "witched," but knowing that you had would not have mattered
one bit in my deciding to read your stories.
However, your non-story posts to the newsgroup are another matter.
After sober reflection, I regret to say that I will no longer be
reading any of your work. I'm sorry to lose a gifted writer from my
list of choices, but I will if I have to. I mean, I don't buy old Tina
Turner albums either, even though I *love* them, because Ike Turner
gets royalties off of them.
So, a reluctant farewell to a much-enjoyed author.
Becky C.
Becky C.
>In article <20000912202855...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
> mick...@aol.communicate (Michaela) wrote:
>> >Lie down with the dogs, get up with fleas.
>> >Where there's smoke, there's fire.
>> >Play in a nest of vipers, you're going to get bit.
>>
>> And a few of my personal favorites...
>>
>> When you point one finger, the other three are pointing back at
>yourself.
>> Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.
>>
>
>
>My own personal favourite is, "Red sky at morning, sailor take
>warning. Red sky at night, sailor's delight."
>
How about " 'Ah hah!' she cried as she waved her wooden leg" and "Look
out, lightning done struck the outhouse!" (the latter of which seems
peculiarly appropriate...)
Becky C.
Brandon Ray
Kimberly wrote:
> Hell, Brandon just posted bits of a private e-mail, but that's okay? We all
> fuck up. Every last one of us.
>
>
I posted an email that *I wrote*. There's nothing wrong with that. The
violation of netiquette is posting *someone else's* email.
--
You're dead you bastards!! I was Krycek birthday party girl! -- Narida said
this on AIM late one night. Don't ask. ;)
==========================
But you *can* ask about my fanfic:
http://www.avalon.net/~publius/MyStories.html
You can also ask about my fanfic recs:
http://www.avalon.net/~publius/MyRecs.html
Dreamshaper
computer, letting cats in and out because cats always want in and out at 4am,
and wishing she didn't have a uterus. TMI? Never. :)
Anyhoo. Pardon my tone, one and all. And forgive me if I sometimes seem to make
no sense. I obviously am sleep-deprived. :)
But I mean every word.
>>And yes, Chicago is
>pretty fucking big, you're right. However, the XF community of posters and
>writers is not.>>
I live near Boston. Recently, I went to dinner with a bunch of Boston
ficwriters and fic fans. There were ten people at dinner, most from right smack
in the city. Boston is muuuuch smaller than Chicago.
Therefore, one could reason that there could be many more fic writers in
Chicago. Therefore, one could reason that tracing an IP-or-whatever to Chicago
is hardly conclusive proof.
Of course, to do so, one would have to be reasoning and not be pulling tulpas.
>a) both willing to say outright, to quote Sabine, that she doesn't care if
>any
>of her list members are witches, and to flame the hell out of someone who
>apparently feels hard done by.>>
I remember a Sabine post where dismay, shock and anger were expressed because
of the violation of a *private* archive. Now I have to wonder when Sab flamed
people who don't feel they were treated right. <wonders, wonders, wonders, asks
someone in the peanut gallery if they remember Sab *flaming* anyone, remembers
someone pointing big flaming fingers at the heretical!YV, wonders some more,
gives up, hopes to get a cookie for her effort>
I know I am doing no good by replying, adding to the thread. People are going
to believe what they're going to believe no matter what I say or do. But I
still wish people would stop, because surely the people who come here to read
fic are sick of this. And surely the people who read Paige's fic or are on her
list are a little wary, and we already know that people are now wary of the YV.
Now, I'm not saying "None of the YV would dare!" I'm saying--I think everyone
is saying--that this whole discussion has tasted sour and fake since the
beginning, and has obviously become the place to air personal grudges.
If you were all really so interested in unmasking the witches...why don't you
just do it already. Present all your evidence. Don't mention that so-and-so
belongs to Scullyfic, or BFM, or YV, or the GAWS/Haven chat boards, or the
International Organization for the Destruction of Self-Esteem. Don't try to
taint the atmosphere, all the while claiming to be doing this for the good of
the innocent.
>zoot, wondering if there is deliberate misdirection going on>>
If there isn't, there should be. We should either have firm, solid answers, or
as Dasha--I think--said days ago...where are the people with the cookies?
Actually, that sounds better than 'incontrovertable' proof. I think we all need
a great big chocolatey cookie! Then some logic! And some milk! And some naps.
And some more chocolate. And a little more logic.
And then we all need to forget any of this ever happened, cause it's mucking up
a season of great fanfiction.
Dreamshaper
really sad, really cranky, and really wishing that no one had made a fuss over
the stupid WXW awards in the first place. :-(
Tesla
Are you from Alabama?
And mine is "My dog ain't in this fight,"
of which I heard another attorney say "I don't even have a Chihuahua in this
fight."
Tesla,
who recently got RL threats against her
a**, because she represents a battered wife.
So, flames vs. bullets? no contest. Flame on!
Tesla
Now, waitasecond---
just because I post under my cat's name doesn't make me (or any of us who
like cutesy aliases) a sock puppet.
I'm sure that's not what you're saying.
I don't give my real addy because I represent women with crazed husbands.
But here's my real name and office:
Denise Matthess Hill
Attorney at Law
321 Second Avenue, SE
Decatur, AL 35602
Since my husband and my mom know I write Muldersmut,
and don't care, and since half the County bar has read my webpage, I guess I
don't need to worry.
I suppose if I decide to write MSR, I'll get another nom de internet.
Tesla
anytime, sweetie.
One day, if I ever get done with RL and my WIP,
I will write a Skinnerfic! Just for you!
(Kim recoils in shock and horror)
Kim
>Michaela <mick...@aol.communicate> wrote in message
>journ...@aol.com wrote:
>> >I'd just like to say, for the record, that even though
>I'm a friend of both Jerry and Michaela, I'm not wearing a damned
>bridesmaid's dress with a big bow on the ass.
>>
>> Not even if it's mint green taffeta, darling? Oh the tragedy of it...
>Jerry, Violet, the weddings are off. If Kim won't wear a bow
>on her ass for us, it's just not worth it. <g>
>>
>> <blowing kisses to Kim while daintily dabbing the tears away>
>
>Wha.....???
>
>Well isn't this just the way things go. I get two proposals and they're
>promptly rescinded. I am now going off in a huff.
>
>HU.....Jerry.....FF
>
>P.S. Michaela, sing that damn song in my presence and you and I will not
>only not marry, we will not speak. <g>
No marriage but you can go off and live in sin, you strumpet.
And if you don't like the Celine Dion song, you can do what I do, and change
the lyrics to be "My Fart Will Go On."
I'm just full of helpful suggestions! <g>
WickdZoot
1. This is apparently no longer about the Witches.
2. This is apparently about a large group of wonderful people who were,
unfortunately, associated in various post with the Witches.
3. I don't give a rat's tail about the YVs.
4. I do give a rat's tail about the Witches. You know, there were several
people who not only had their fiction eviscerated, but their personal lives
attacked.
5. Somehow, I am now apparently the cause of the YVs trouble because of my
campaign to shut them down.
6. Somehow, it's taking the high road to ignore the Witches, but it's okay to
go nutzoid over people who don't like your good buddies? Let's all stick our
heads in the sand shall we?
> remembers
>someone pointing big flaming fingers at the heretical!YV, wonders some more,
>gives up, hopes to get a cookie for her effort>
Don't try to think, sweetie, clearly it's not your strong suit at 4 am. I did
NOT, have not, have no reason to flame the Heretical YV. Remember? I'm not
Paige, Paige is not me.
>Now, I'm not saying "None of the YV would dare!" I'm saying--I think everyone
>is saying--that this whole discussion has tasted sour and fake since the
>beginning, and has obviously become the place to air personal grudges.
On several different sides, apparently.
>>zoot, wondering if there is deliberate misdirection going on>>
>
>If there isn't, there should be. We should either have firm, solid answers,
As far as I'm concerned, all this raving on the YVs *is* misdirection. Have a
good flame war, kiddies, I'm going to continue poking the Witches. Let me know
when someone finally remembers how this started and puts the blame on the right
people.
> And a little more logic.
>
Yes, especially the kind that isn't specious.
zott
Atticus
<<And mine is "My dog ain't in this fight,"
of which I heard another attorney say "I don't even have a Chihuahua in this
fight.">>
ROFL. I thought I was the only one who said "My dog ain't in this fight".
What about "S/He's got the same damn pants to get glad in"?
Amanda
++++++++++++
T H E B A D B O T T O M L I N E:
Feeling flush with the competitive spirit, Bill Mulder feverishly placed his
blue Stratego pieces on the board. "Okay, Teena, this round's for the kids."
*
www.geocities.com/Finchfic
Atticus
<<Since my husband and my mom know I write Muldersmut,
and don't care, and since half the County bar has read my webpage, I guess I
don't need to worry.
I suppose if I decide to write MSR, I'll get another nom de internet.>>
Oh, suuure, but what about the reputation of your poor cat?!
pam
> It's 4am. Do you know where Dreamshaper is? That's right, she's in
> front of her computer, letting cats in and out because cats always
> want in and out at 4am, and wishing she didn't have a uterus.
> TMI? Never. :)
You're letting cats in and out of your computer at 4am,
Sophia Jirafe
I have finally discovered a truth which had heretofore gone unrecognized
by me.
Those of you who are not being personally attacked in this debate are
fighting...because you *like* fighting. No rational, thoughtful,
'quit-fighting' post (like Ambress' original post on this thread) can
ever change that.
This no longer has anything to do with the WW, the YV, fanfic, or, even
in the remotest sense, the X-Files. (Remember that? It's in the forum
name, after all....) It's about people now. It's about the fact that
people, given the slightest opportunity, will form groups and stomp on
each others' hearts.
Congratulations, folks, you've proven 'Survivor', 'Real World' and 'Road
Rules' to be realistic models of human behavior.
I'm just thankful that the newsgroup has its threads separately
contained. I know one thread I won't be reading anymore.
--
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's
opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
--Oscar Wilde
Kim
<Kim said:>
>>Wait! Hold it! Time out!
>>
>>You have "proof" of the identity three Witches?<<
>
>Pardon me, I stated that badly. Post in haste, repent at leisure. What
>I
>should have said is that I have in hand proof of two IP addresses and ISPs.
>
>
>Those have led me to certain conclusions. For the first email, I have been
>able to locate only one poster via Deja news with the same provider who
>is also
>connected with the X-Files newsgroups. For the second, I have traced the
>IP
>headers back to the Utah Educational Network and forwarded said email to
>the
>system administrator.
I want to be very clear about a few things here. Take some baby steps with me,
if you would, please.
As far as I know, nobody has received any emails from the Witches clearly
identified *as* a witch, right?
Let's say just for the purpose of illustration that such an email address would
be "ImaW...@coven.com", OK?
So the email address you have is that of a person you *suspect* of being a
witch?
Again, for purposes of illustration, let's say that the normal ordinary,
subscribed to YV (or Scullyfic or ATXC or whatever) address of Suspected Witch
is "SuzyF...@philes.com."
Nothing has been received from "ImaWitch" at all, right? The one and only thing
we do know *for sure* is Witchy is the website, yes?
Still with me?
So I gather that the header you have came from SuzyFanfic, yes?
So how is the SuzyFanfic address orISP associated with the Witch site?
This is not at all clear to me. This could be my failure to be Netsavvy but I
didn't grasp it in your email.
I do not believe that what anyone has in hand is any sort of definitive proof
**unless** it's shown that SuzyFanfic has the exact same routing, server, etc.
- I don't know the technical term - as the Witch site itself.
I have been lead to believe that with certain ISPs and certain tools, an
individual computer can be identified in email headers. But do websites have
such headers? I don't know. I'd take a computer match as very definite but do
we have that? I don't know. I don't think so.
Netsavvy or not, this is a matter of logical proof, and I don't see it. So,
yes, Zoot, it's less than proof as you yourself admitted. It's something that
may figure into proof someday but it doesn't constitute anything except a
possible starting point.
I do NOT believe it's "proof" if SuzyFanfic said something that sounds like,
even sounds VERY like, something a Witch said. I do NOT believe it's proof for
Suzy Fanfic to have the same ISP, physical location, or server as an email from
a suspected Witch or the Witch site itself.
As to your query about privacy issues and ISPs, I do not believe that unless
you have an obscene or threatening email, thatn an sysop or administrator will
offer you any help as to identifying a particular user. I do believe that a
reckless inquiry to a proprietary system administrator, not an accusation, just
a mere inquiry, could be extremely hurtful to someone IRL. I'm not referring to
a complaint to an ISP but rather the educational server that you mentioned,
which is most likely associated with someone's job or attendance at at school.
An ISP complaint is bad enough (e.g., CiCi's problems of some time back) but to
dig into someone's job or schooling - wow. Very serious. Is Witchiness, as
shitty as it is, worth wrecking someone's life?
And there are other concerns about privacy here too. These are very troubling.
I do believe, no, I know, it would be extremely wrong for anyone to have gone
to the YV private mail list and read it if Paige gave out her password to them.
It's wrong. Anyone who did it would have to know it was a private list and
wrong. And there's no excuse for it. None.
I do believe it would be absolutely wrong for anyone to use any information
gleaned by such an invasion of privacy. Legally, this would be exactly like
attempting to introduce evidence gained through an illegal wiretap -
inadmissable. I can't imagine what people in the XF community would feel about
someone they learned spied on a private mail list. "Excommunication" would be
too mild a word.
I do believe that despite disclaimers to the contrary, that this has become
about YV to you, Zoot. The remark you made to Kari referring to YV as 'lovely,
fine, upstanding people' then proceeding to criticize Sabine and to claim that
the YV people were sending flames, was pretty telling. Have you not, in the
past, been eager to expose people's ugly private side when they present a
gentler side to the public? Is this more of the same? I think so.
I believe that it's possible for some people to have a vested interest in
gaining attention and power through politicking, gossip, innuendo and
intimidation. This situation is ripe for exploitation, manipulation and being
turned into tabloid gossip fodder, yes? And then there are those who sit
silently and take their little notes, just waiting for a chance to turn the
Witch/YV debacle to their advantage in making new alliances or breaking up old
ones. ::::rolling eyes:::
I hear the Witches declared a time-out on their website. How fucking cowardly.
How very unsurprising.
I note again that I know and like some YV people very much. I've spent time
with some IRL and I really have nothing but great fondness for them. They've
been a lot of comfort in my recent (and ongoing) hard times. I hate to see them
hurt by the blanket accusations, and I hate to see them hurt by the Witches
among them, if any.
My agenda is only to remark how this is some sad, sorry bullshit. It's not
about good literary criticism. It's not about anything except a contest to see
who can be the biggest brass-plated cunt. Someone will win that contest but
<snort> that speaks for itself.
So, Zoot, if your intentions toward YV aren't hostile, as you claim, then why
don't you let this go, leave YV to sort it out, declare the Witch "time out" as
your victory, and be cool? If the Witchiness has stopped, it's definitely time
to chill out.
Until you have proof, as outlined above, we don't know who the Witches are.
Until you let this matter end, people can't move on and heal from a wrong done
to them. Until you stop making any issue about the Witches, they have power
over you, over the NG, which includes me, and over nice people in YV, that I'm
not willing to grant to them.
KIMBERLY S WALL
> Kimberly,
> Now, waitasecond---
> just because I post under my cat's name doesn't make me (or any of us who
> like cutesy aliases) a sock puppet.
> I'm sure that's not what you're saying.
> I don't give my real addy because I represent women with crazed husbands.
> But here's my real name and office:
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Believe me, at first I didn't know
the difference between a pen name and a sock. But I soon learned that the
sock puppet persona is taken on when you already have a pen name you've
established a reputation under, and you don't want to trash that name with
posts that either flame or hurt.
So you just make up another name.
Example. My name is Kimberly, it's the name I post under and I did not have
the good sense, nor the creativity, to use a pen name. But let's say for
kicks, I decided that I wanted to set up shop cutting people down. People
already know me as Kimberly, and hell - I wouldn't want to screw with that.
I'll call my self Cookie Monster and flame away. Still protecting my
reputation as Kimberly.
There is no way that I would ever expect anyone to give anyone personal
information on the net. I would just like people to get their multiple
personality disorders under control before they post. And if it's not to
much to ask, but to face up to your actions and have the strengths of your
convictions and let the chips fall where they may. We all screw up, every
last damn one of us. But admit to it, and you can at least have a crack at
earning the respect of your peers.
Kimberly
Kim
You know, there's a 'pussy' joke to be made here, but I'm just not going to do
it.
<blows raspberries at myself>
Becky C.
wrote:
>Becky!
>Are you from Alabama?
Nope, North Carolina, but "I don't have a dog in this fight" reaches
there too -- that and "That dog'll hunt" or "I don' b'lieve that
dog'll hunt."
Becky, who also prefers flames to bullets, and either of those to
double-ought buck, which is just hell to dodge.
Becky C.
wrote:
>I suppose if I decide to write MSR, I'll get another nom de internet.
*ponders Tesla writing MSR*
*scans the sky for flying pigs*
Becky C.
Becky C.
<a lot of very sensible things snipped>
>who can be the biggest brass-plated cunt.
Wow, Kim, this is quite the mental image. Is this a pre-existing
phrase, or something invented for the occasion?
*sigh* Now I'm going to have odd mental pictures in my head *all day*!
Becky C.
WickdZoot
You assume that there is an alterior motive for my campaign against the
witches. I won't debate you here, because nobody else gives a hoot. You're
wrong. <shrugging> Believe whatever you like.
I'm not going to discuss who has what personal motives in public or what
personal motives have existed in the past. There isn't a person on this
newsgroup who can't throw stones in that regard. Except, perhaps, for the
lurkers.
That's it. I'm going back to writing some fic, fan and original, enjoying my
employed son, my new carpet, my sweet daughter who has recovered from the
onslaught of puberty, and my pals.
As for declaring a victory, it's not a victory until the reviews are taken
down.
zoot, rolling eyes
WickdZoot
zoot
inquisi...@my-deja.com
"shannono" <shan...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> A private list, chat, or IM is just that: Private. Snarkiness,
> bitching, complaints, and gripes are not only allowed; they're
> expected. We all need a place to vent, and that's what those
> PRIVATE conversations are for.
>
> Violating a confidence in any manner is at minimum rude; boasting
> about it is revolting. The very thought turns my stomach.
>
> Shannon
> Friend of Virginia
>
>
Well Shanono, I am coming to the arguement a bit late, but its never
too late to add one's tuppence worth. Let me start by asking you this
question; what "good" are the Witches doing for fanfic in general. What
exactly have they done to make fanfic better? If in fact, as its been
reported that members of the Virginia group are in fact "witches", then
why by all means shouldn't they be outed? I mean sure the Nazi's made
the trains run on time, and I am sure they had all the secret
handshakes, and passwords the apparent witchy members of the Virgina
board have as well, and for some reason nobody had a major problem with
them either, until 6 million bodies later.
Perhaps you would be better served adding to the quality of fanfic in
general, by spending your efforts actually writing, or reading it,
rather than misguidedly protecting those who seek nothing more than to
entertain themselves at the expense of others. Since when did the
politics of fanfic become more important than the quality of the
stories being presented, and who amoung us has the credentials to truly
judge what is good and what is bad...certainly not the witches, as its
rather impossible to veiw ones credentials, if they insist on hiding
behind a charade. Have fun ;)!
WickdZoot
>would write some fic, instead.
>
<waving hand> But I am, I am.
zoot, bouncing back to smut
inquisi...@my-deja.com
"jerry" <jerrynos...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Well said, Shannon.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Jerry
>
>
Yeah I am betting Hermann Goering would have thought it was well said
as well. Have you no oppinons of your own? Have fun :)!
inquisi...@my-deja.com
"Sabine" <emi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> THE WITCHES: critique writers' skills
> PAIGE: slanders writers' PERSONALITIES
>
> Sabine
>
Have you ever read any of their so called "critiques"? Are you sure you
know the meaning of the word slander? Judging from your statements, I
can only assume you haven't, and you don't. I read quite a few, back
when they first started out, and before I got bored with them, and can
say in all honesty, nothing beneficial ever came out of one, other than
the guffaws, and chuckles, derived by its own twisted membership.
Had they made the effort to write, constructive reviews of the works,
they illegally posted to their site, rather than snarky little comments
after each and every sentence, or in the least, had the courage to put
thier names to the "critiques" I don't think anyone would have ever
had a problem with them. While granted, what Paige did might not have
been the nicest thing to do, its certainly no worse, and I doubt
seriously it was done with any concerns regarding what they did to her
works.
The fact that some of you choose to rally behind the witches, over an
established writer, is sickening, as it makes you no better than the
witches themselves. Have fun ;)!
BRING IT ON!!!
Dasha K.
>Jerry and Michaela, I'm not wearing a damned bridesmaid's dress with a big
>bow
>on the ass.
:::snort:::
I WILL!
That's how much I love you guys... <g>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dasha K.
I wouldn't kick him outta bed for eatin' cookies, especially espresso chocolate
chip shortbread. And if he brought me an iced latte, he could stay all day...
Dasha K.
>some of them are. Time for the Virginians to clean house.
Excuse me, but do you actually know any of the YVers? Do you know what their
list set-up and/or rules are?
Look folks, YV is a PRIVATE LIST. Get it? Private. As in, whatever goes on
between them is between them and the rest is none of our damn business.
Dasha K.
>hand. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
It is rather beautiful, isn't it?
Dasha, sending Kim a box of cookies
Dasha K.
>Shannon
>Friend of Virginia
You know, maybe we could get banners for our websites... <g>
Dasha, overposting and trying to inject some levity here
inquisi...@my-deja.com
mar...@aol.comet (marasmus) wrote:
> In article <8pmlrn$2j9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> paigec...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > For the record, since I am sick of this puerile crap:
I suspect they make a pill or ointment for that.
>
> Do you have any idea how you just contradicted the entire basis of
your own
> campaign?
Do tell, cause you failed to make your point here.
>
> I can only think that the air up there on the imaginary moral high
ground is
> very, very thin and some kind of hypoxia has ensued.
*sucks in a big ole lung-full. Nope fine here, except for an
occaisional bout of smokers hack.
>
> Forwarding =private= emails is morally dubious enough.
Having read this thread, I don't recall that being mentioned
specifically as having taken place. But then again, one should always
take care regarding what they say to others, as it often has a way of
coming back and biting them in the arse.
> And it's pretty nasty to expose 30 people to flames through snide
insinuations
> and wild accusations when your "absolute proof" is an IP address for
Chicago
> and some half-arsed forensic linguistics. (and I'm not American so
correct me
> if I'm wrong, but isn't Chicago pretty bloody BIG)
Never heard the term "guilty by association", or "one is judged by
their peers"? Lets not kid ourselves, if there be witches in YV, then I
am sure the moderator knows who they are, or is one
himself/herself/itself, and has chosen to protect them, rather than
expose them, so I guess he/she/it reaps what he/she/it sows.
>
> But passing out a password to a private archive and encouraging other
people to
> go there and look is just beyond redemption. How does this differ
> in intent from what the Witches do?
Well you seems to have no problem protecting the rights of the
broomstik gang to privacy, so seems to me turn about is fair play.
>
> Should everyone on your new list watch what they say just in case
you're
> downloading it for later use?
Guess thats for them to decide, if you're not a member, why would you
care?
>
> If you are intent on making your name an emetic for right-thinking
people
> around the world, just keep going the way you are.
Got something against right-thinking people? You're not one of those
long haired, dope smoking, free love, anti-establishment hippie types
are you? If you are that explains alot.
>
> For the record: No one thinks the Witches are big or clever. If you
ignore them
> they have no power. You can't be offended by what you don't read but
you've
> just ensured that most everyone has visited their site.
> Well done.
Did you ever consider, even if it was between doing bong hits, that
perhaps what was done was not for self benefit, but rather for the
benefit, of those who don't have the courage to speak for themselves?
Did you ever consider that the witches might pose an obstacle for those
interested in getting involved with the fanfic community beyond
readership, due to fear of being mercilessly ripped to shreds by a
group of pedantic wannabe's? Turn on the light and perhaps you might
see where I am going with this.
> At least Zoot is sparing people that tedium by setting up her own
voting form.
>
I think Zoot said it best; "Zoot is zoot, zoot is not Paige, Paige is
not zoot". I fail to see what zoot has to do with your argument
regarding Paige, but then again, perhaps you ran out of viable
commentary and needed something to fluff out your portentious
indignation.
> I don't recall any flames. I recall a long discussion about archives,
rec sites
> and gossamer. It was honest but it wasn't particularly toasty. Most
of all it
> was PRIVATE.
Yeah and I bet you think your Mailman doesn't peruse your mail before,
he stuffs it in your box, wake up moonflower.
>
> For the GODDAMNED record, I'm not all sunshine and sweetness but I
have never
> said anything in private which I would not be prepared to defend in
public.
You seem kinda wishy washy to me.
> In fact this is the most unpleasant thing I have ever posted in
public or
> private.
A masochist eh?
> So you've made this silly, fun hobby a completely miserable
experience for me
> and more than 20 other good people who have tried not to react to your
> increasingly bizarre posts.
Maybe if you concerned yourself more with the actual writing, and less
with the politics, you would be a happier person. Have fun ;)!
Dasha K.
>reported that members of the Virginia group are in fact "witches", then
>why by all means shouldn't they be outed? I mean sure the Nazi's made
>the trains run on time, and I am sure they had all the secret
>handshakes, and passwords the apparent witchy members of the Virgina
>board have as well, and for some reason nobody had a major problem with
>them either, until 6 million bodies later.
Oh for the love of GOD!
Why is it that in any argument, someone *always* has to drag Nazis, fascism or
McCarthyism into it? People, this is FANFIC. No one is going to die. We're
all sitting comfortably at our computers. Don't even try to compare a flame
war to the atrocities of the Nazis. That just minimizes what was done by Nazi
Germany.
And I'm not saying that feelings haven't been hurt, that what is happening
isn't real and painful for a whole lot of people. It's just that making
comparisons between fanfic and the Holocaust is completely ridiculous.
Michaela
>Well Shanono, I am coming to the arguement a bit late, but its never
>too late to add one's tuppence worth.
So THIS is where your socks end up when they go missing while you're doing the
laundry. And here I thought my dryer kept eating them. Who knew?
Michaela, always happy to have one of life's little mysteries solved...
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
"The very concept of 'informed consent' implies that once you are informed, you
will consent."
"In the absence of drugs and the presence of preparedness, nature is
efficient."