Is Mulder a dork? (MINOR DREAMLAND I SPOiLERS)
ophel...@my-dejanews.com
I'm mildly disappointed that Mulder has acted like a dork in 2 episodes in a
row. (The "What's his name?" "Puddin'Tane, ask me again and I'll tell you the
same," line in "Triangle" made me want to smack him upside the head).
Not like he hasn't acted like a dork before. One word: "Chinga." (Why did
supposedly workaholic, I'll-risk-my-life-for-the-Truth Mulder waste time
playing with office supplies the second his partner left? Is this the same
person who jumped on top of a moving freight train in "731)?"
I guess so far I've been able to dismiss Mulder's more outrageously dorky
moments as non-canon or dubiously canon. (The weird falsetto squeak in "Jose
Chung," the cracking off of the late VanBlundht Sr.'s tail in "Small Potatoes,
etc).
But he's been dorky enough lately that I may have to re-evaluate the
character. Unfortunately. Anybody want to take a stab at reconciling the
Mulder of "The Pine Bluff Variant" (brave,lonely-but-stoic man of honor)with
the Mulder of "Chinga" (inexplicably underachieving geek) and/or the dance
sequence of Dreamland I (Richard Simmons on PCP (?))
--Ophelia
P.S. Whatever I think of the camera-mugging in "Dreamland I," I bet it was
fun for DD. It's probably dull being lonely-but-stoic *all* the time. :)
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Laurie Cubbison
played by a very good-looking actor. That doesn't happen much in Hollywood.
Most of the time, if they want a character to be a dork, they rely on the look
of the actor and costuming, not the the written characterization. As written
throughout the series, Mulder has always been a dork. And you could argue that
he has consciously or unconsciously chosen to be a dork. He could've stayed a
hotshot in violent crimes. Instead he becomes obsessed with the X-files. His
looks would seem to give him access to a better love life, but he satisfies
himself with porn, the refuge of the lonely. His idea of a vacation is going
to Graceland. Mulder is a dork. He's slightly less dorkish than the Lone
Gunmen, but not by much and only because he's handsomer.
It's one of the reasons I love the X-files. They took their two lead
characters and designed them to have personalities other than the typical
Hollywood leads. Can you think of any other show (not an ensemble like er or
homicide) which would use such characters as its stars?
laurie
AngryPhile
VERY MUCH the "Overgrown Child" as
opposed to last season's matured cynic?
Just add a genuine UFO and
*presto* He's a 12 years old again.
Mulder is stunted in his development,
forever young like Tom Hanks's
character in BIG.
When you look at Mulder's behavior
for this perspective, it makes sense,
oddly enough, as to why he does the things
he does.
For Example
-------------------------------------------------
"I got the coolest job in the world!"
Mulder's crusade explained.
Silly boy Mulder gets to chase aliens & UFOs
and other icky things and he gets paid for it!
"You'll take care of me won't you Scully?"
Mulder/Scully relationship explained.
Scully is a substitute mother figure.
(Perhaps the mom he never had?)
Scully keeps him in line and punishes his misdeeds.
Why, she'll even blow on the alcohol to make it
hurt less like any good mom would.
"Hey guys, let's crack into a top secret Government
building! Oh wait, but first, check out this really cool
picture I stole off the Pentagon mainframe!"
Mulder's choice in friends explained.
The Lone Gunmen are exactly the type of chums
little boy Mulder would pal around with.
The Gunmen are kids too.
"Oooh. Giggle giggle giggle. She's naked. Giggle giggle"
Pornography habit explained.
It's a case of naughty boy antics meets coy curiosity.
After trying to kiss Scully: "I'm sorry."
The 'what-is-he-waiting-for?' explained.
Mulder has no idea what to do with a real woman.
I reminds me of the movie BIG.
My God! He's barely over the "Girls have cooties" phase. ;p
"But this is a normal life Scully."
Mulder's disinterest in settling down explained.
Mulder doesn't see his life as odd or lacking in
anyway. It's his dream come true. Family & girls
are he last thing on his mind. He wants to go out
and play.
"Orders, smorders. Who needs 'em?"
The brat employee explained.
Mulder has a serious need for a MAJOR spanking.
"What? Wash dishes? Clean the office? *Snort*"
Mulder housekeeping explained.
"Cleaning is Mom's job and
if she's not doing it, neither am I."
"See you later Scully."
The ditch explained.
Mulder is stuck in the me-first stage of development.
It never occurs to him that what he does effects
other people.
"But.. but... It's wrong Mr. Bad Guy."
Mulder ideology explained.
He's a wide-eyed innocent in world
of ugly jaded people.
I think perhaps the best symbol of this was
in Fight the Future. Mulder sees the Spaceship and
after all the danger he just went through to
save Scully, he can still sit on the edge and marvel at
it in a childlike fascination.
IMHO, The whole journey of the X-Files is
about Mulder learning there are
more than two colors in the world.
More than black and white.
Nothing is ever totally evil or totally good.
As soon as he realizes that, he becomes an adult,
the show ends and he & Scully can hop in the sack. ;p
-------------------------------------------------
I guess taking his character this direction this
season is the only way it can go. It's a
reasonable explanation for his behavior.
Anyone have other comments or disagree?
aP
PennPart
I'd be happy to volunteer :-)
Sue
You can't worry about what you can't control.
ophel...@my-dejanews.com
angry...@aol.com (AngryPhile) wrote:
> Is it just me or is this season's Mulder is
> VERY MUCH the "Overgrown Child" as
> opposed to last season's matured cynic?
Yes, and it's bugging me. Just my 2 cents.
--Ophelia
Barbara462
>Mulder of "The Pine Bluff Variant" (brave,lonely-but-stoic man of honor)with
>the Mulder of "Chinga" (inexplicably underachieving geek) and/or the dance
>sequence of Dreamland I (Richard Simmons on PCP (?))
Ooooo. I love a challenge. And I think I can do it. I adore PBV Mulder (and
that's how I think of elemental Mulder--what makes Mulder who he is). Now.
Mulder in Chinga. OK. THink about the context of that episode in the canon.
This is the Mulder who is disillusioned. He thinks his life is a lie. His
interest in the X-files dubious. This episode led up to Patient X and TRATB,
and maybe we can see Chinga Mulder as foreshadowing in a way. Mulder in PX is
full-blown disillusioned. He tells Scully "I've had my head up my ass for five
years." He draws a mustache on his own picture. He's lost interest in his
life's work and is depressed and terribly self-disparaging. Scully tends to
anchor Mulder (he's said so himself) and Mulder without Scully (especially mid
season 5) could be very adrift, bored, etc. The X-files is no longer his
life's work, because his life's work seems like a bad joke to him, with himself
as the butt of it.
So a bored and needy Mulder is very in character---a baloon with air let out.
Now in PBV, as a result of his disillusioned monologue in PX, he has been
contacted by a domestic terror group. The contact gives Mulder a chance at
redemption and recovery of self worth. But he's still depressed, so he doesn't
really care if his life is at risk, hence he's stoic. Iloved this episode.
OK...now for Dreamland.
I felt that Mulder was very much within character, given his situation. DD
played it very straight most of the time, IMHO. He must have felt like he'd
gone through the looking glass (an old distorted one, at that). So Mulder
finds himself changing clothes and for the first time sees "himself" in the
mirror. No one else is around. After the initial shock, he's amused by the
stranger looking back at him. It is within Mulder's usual sense of wonder to
be amused and curious. Haven't we all played Jimmy Hendrix in front of the
mirror when we thought no one was looking? Or mugged in front of it? Wondered
how we might look with someone else's body as we peered into the glass? Well,
Mulder's mirror image looks back and he's waaaay different. So M is probably
thinking Marx Brothers!!!!!! What would happen if..... Then the rock star
bit.
Mulder is serious so often, he must occasionally break his angst and be silly
(especially when he's alone)...so we got to peek at Mulder in one of those
moments. It's not out of character--just out of what we know of the character.
And now we know. And now we know he dreams of Scully, too. We didn't know
that before either.
Gee, this has gotten to be longer than I intended, sorry
Barbara Barnett
"if not now, when? (Pirkei Avot)"
visit my fanfic page:
http://members.aol.com/barbara462/index.html
Unbound I
>Date: 11/30/98 3:47 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <73v3q5$ue9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>Okay, I laughed at the mirror scene, bizzare as it was.
>
>I'm mildly disappointed that Mulder has acted like a dork in 2 episodes in a
>row. (The "What's his name?" "Puddin'Tane, ask me again and I'll tell you
>the
>same," line in "Triangle" made me want to smack him upside the head).
>
>Not like he hasn't acted like a dork before. One word: "Chinga." (Why did
>supposedly workaholic, I'll-risk-my-life-for-the-Truth Mulder waste time
>playing with office supplies the second his partner left? Is this the same
>person who jumped on top of a moving freight train in "731)?"
>
>I guess so far I've been able to dismiss Mulder's more outrageously dorky
>moments as non-canon or dubiously canon. (The weird falsetto squeak in "Jose
>Chung," the cracking off of the late VanBlundht Sr.'s tail in "Small
>Potatoes,
>etc).
>
>But he's been dorky enough lately that I may have to re-evaluate the
>Mulder of "The Pine Bluff Variant" (brave,lonely-but-stoic man of honor)with
>the Mulder of "Chinga" (inexplicably underachieving geek) and/or the dance
>sequence of Dreamland I (Richard Simmons on PCP (?))
>
>
>
I guess this all really depends on what your idea of a dork is. I think
Mulder could be classified in direct terms as a dork given the fact he is
essentially a loner with no personal life to speak of who spends the vast
majority of his time obsessing on things beyond the realm of normal
comprehension or understanding.
OK, I admit we're not talking about Revenge of the Nerds dork here. But I
was going for something other than the broad, tape in the middle of glasses
stereotype here. And by that description, Mulder has always been somewhat of a
dork--at least in the way he is viewed by others.
I don't know if the little mirror dance deviates all that greatly from the
Mulder we've come to know. I personally thought it was cute but unnecessary. I
don't think we can really use that scene to define Mulder or try to use in
comparison to other actions we have seen before and those you mention.
I think the character we saw in PBV was clearly someone battling to come to
grips with his own reality and therefore was willing to put his life on the
line in order to find something tangible that he could grasp onto.
Unfortunately for Mulder, his reality remained undefined after that episode and
it wasn't until the movie when he again found his true center of being.
I don't think we've seen a major deviation thus far this season. The comment
you mention in Triangle after all came from his subconscious (if we believe the
dream analogy) and so it could be explained away by any means given how
everyone's dreamscape works. And the mirror dance? Well again, I just think it
was an attempt at humor and depending on whether you did or didn't like it will
decide how in character it is for you.
So is Mulder becoming dorkier? I don't think so. Remember, though, he has
always been a loner, always been an outsider looked upon as strange by
virtually everyone he comes into contact with---with one great exception of
course. Which makes it understandable why Scully has become the center of his
universe.
In many ways, Mulder could be described as being somewhat of a dork if we
chose to. But I also think we've seen enough other traits from heroism, to
dogged determination to protector to know there is much more at work here and
he is after all a complete character.
Unbound I
Unbound I
>
>I'd be happy to volunteer :-)
>
>Sue
>
>
think it's fair to say she owes him one know <g>
gwaihir
says...
>Ooooo. I love a challenge. And I think I can do it. I adore PBV Mulder (and
>that's how I think of elemental Mulder--what makes Mulder who he is). Now.
>Mulder in Chinga. OK. THink about the context of that episode in the canon.
>This is the Mulder who is disillusioned. He thinks his life is a lie. His
>interest in the X-files dubious. This episode led up to Patient X and TRATB,
>and maybe we can see Chinga Mulder as foreshadowing in a way. Mulder in PX is
>full-blown disillusioned. He tells Scully "I've had my head up my ass for >five
>years." He draws a mustache on his own picture. He's lost interest in his
>life's work and is depressed and terribly self-disparaging. Scully tends to
>anchor Mulder (he's said so himself) and Mulder without Scully (especially mid
>season 5) could be very adrift, bored, etc. The X-files is no longer his
>life's work, because his life's work seems like a bad joke to him, with >himself
>as the butt of it.
>
>So a bored and needy Mulder is very in character---a baloon with air let out.
Yep, he has no focus any more so he throws pencils at the ceiling wondering
how he managed to end up in the basement - in life and career-wise.
>Now in PBV, as a result of his disillusioned monologue in PX, he has been
>contacted by a domestic terror group. The contact gives Mulder a chance at
>redemption and recovery of self worth. But he's still depressed, so he >doesn't
>really care if his life is at risk, hence he's stoic. Iloved this >episode.
Agreed. I saw a Mulder still depressed, but stoically willing to risk
his life because nothing in his life had any meaning. This is one of
my favorite episodes as well. The loneliness of his near-death must
have seemed terribly appropriate to Mulder at that moment.
I do find it interesting that Mulder and Scully are now involved with
the Domestic Terrorism branch of the FBI. Continuity anyone? <G>
>OK...now for Dreamland.
>
>I felt that Mulder was very much within character, given his situation. DD
>played it very straight most of the time, IMHO. He must have felt like he'd
>gone through the looking glass (an old distorted one, at that). So Mulder
>finds himself changing clothes and for the first time sees "himself" in the
>mirror. No one else is around. After the initial shock, he's amused by the
>stranger looking back at him. It is within Mulder's usual sense of wonder to
>be amused and curious. Haven't we all played Jimmy Hendrix in front of the
>mirror when we thought no one was looking? Or mugged in front of it? >Wondered
>how we might look with someone else's body as we peered into the glass? Well,
>Mulder's mirror image looks back and he's waaaay different. So M is probably
>thinking Marx Brothers!!!!!! What would happen if..... Then the rock star
>bit.
LOL! It was a great scene. Caught in the act of being silly, Mulder
frantically tries to cover up with a bit of martial arts moves and only
makes the situation worse.
Mulder was mugging for the mirror, trying out the body he was stuck in,
seeing how it moved, how it felt. This was the first time he had really
gotten a good look at himself and I think he was trying to cover up a
dawning sense of panic by acting a bit silly.
>Mulder is serious so often, he must occasionally break his angst and be silly
>(especially when he's alone)...so we got to peek at Mulder in one of those
>moments. It's not out of character--just out of what we know of the >character.
>And now we know. And now we know he dreams of Scully, too. We didn't know
>that before either.
One of the reasons I still love this show is because we are constantly
learning new things about the characters. I loved that peek into his
dreams. <g>
We got to see a playful Mulder, trying to relieve the strain of an
impossible event. He is one of those very rare and precious adults
who have retained a child-like sense of wonder and awe at the mysteries
of life and the universe. He is confident enough in himself to act silly,
but really doesn't want an audience. <g>
Joyce
"... a desire to have all the fun is
nine-tenths of the law of chivalry." PDBW
OpheliaMac
touched by vulnerable Mulder/innocent Mulder. I have felt sympathy for
tortured Mulder. I don't really mind Mulder-the-porn-geek or even Mulder they
guy who gives people gifts like "Superstars of the Superbowl" to people when
they've returned from the dead.
It's the "How can this guy possibly get dressed in the morning without
assistance" Mulder that annoys me. (Yes, in Dreamland I Joanne Fletcher really
does have to remind him to change his clothes). I guess in real lie I
have a problem with adults who act like overgrown children and that's my own
thing.
Apparently other people, including Chris Carter and David Duchovny, like this
aspect of the character just fine. I guess you guys are right that Mulder is a
true, canon dweeb-o. I'm not that happy about it, but who asked me? : )
--Ophelia
"Where are we going? Why am I in this handbasket?"
Laura Burchard
Unbound I <unbo...@aol.com> wrote:
> I guess this all really depends on what your idea of a dork is. I think
>Mulder could be classified in direct terms as a dork given the fact he is
>essentially a loner with no personal life to speak of who spends the vast
>majority of his time obsessing on things beyond the realm of normal
>comprehension or understanding.
I am forced to use one of my favorite quotes from my friend St. Rev:
"David Duchovny is the apotheosis of geek chic. The guy's a fucking PhD
candidate in English from where, Princeton? He plays a total geek. A guy
who gets no dates, obsesses over UFOs, and spends most of his money on
porn. And he's THE COOLEST MAN ON TELEVISION. We won, people."
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
gwaihir
says...
>It's the "How can this guy possibly get dressed in the morning without
>assistance" Mulder that annoys me. (Yes, in Dreamland I Joanne Fletcher >really
>does have to remind him to change his clothes). I guess in real lie
>I have a problem with adults who act like overgrown children and that's my
>own thing.
Come on, give the poor guy a break. <g> He just got transported into
somebody else's body, and, from the looks of things, a not very nice
guy who comes complete with family, and you expect him to remember
little things like fresh clothes? <BG>
I think he was just trying to get out of that house as quickly as he
could and go somewhere quiet where he could try to figure out (1) what
happened and (2) how to undo it. He was in shock. Clothes were the
last things on his mind at the moment and I don't blame him. Escape
was a priority.
I don't see a dork or a dweeb or even an overgrown child - just a very
private, lonely, highly intelligent, driven man who somehow has managed
to retain a sense of wonder about the universe and its mysteries.
Laura Shapiro
Unbound I wrote in message <19981201114705...@ng101.aol.com>...
<shameless plug>
Try my story "What He Deserved" (on Gossamer) to read about what that
spanking might be like.
</shameless plug>
~ Laura
--"Repeat to yourself 'It's just a show
I should really just relax...'"
Joel Hodgson
OpheliaMac
>
No problem. Oddly, I feel better about it. (Lets see if this feeling holds
the next time he does something waaaaay doofy.
P.S. -- I love the Mulder of Pine Bluff Variant, too.
And I'm not sure a spanking would help in those overgrown-child moments. He
might just enjoy it. : )
Barbara462
>private, lonely, highly intelligent, driven man who somehow has managed
>to retain a sense of wonder about the universe and its mysteries.
>
Yes! Exactly. I can't see why everyone seems to be complaining about Mulder's
characterization. He WASN"T Mulder. He was scared he'd be recognized and
endanger himself and/or Scully; he was curious and a bit intrigued; He was
horrified at the scene in the kitchen and trying to cope as well as he could.
He was incredibly awkward (as well he would have been, being a middle aged
loner bachelor, as you said, very private, person.) Yeee. Give the guy a
break?!
Circe
> Is it just me or is this season's Mulder is
> VERY MUCH the "Overgrown Child" as
> opposed to last season's matured cynic?
>
I've always seen Mulder as having been emotionally stunted
at the age of 12, so it doesn't greatly surprise me that the
show has gone in that direction.
He's always shown a childlike sense of wonder. Witness his "You
gotta see this!" in Deep Throat. He's always had abandonment
issues. "I knew you wouldn't abandon me, Scully." in Never
Again.
I do think he's been growing, but when you look at what
happened to him at the age of 12, and speculate on what the
remainder of his childhood must have been like, it's not
surprising that he would sometimes still act like a 12 year
old.
--
Circe
The Titanium Magnolia
SPCDD, DD/FM ListMom, Sorceress--MM
If those were my last words, I can do better.--Fox Mulder
Circe
Snipped a lot of cool stuff about Mulder in Chinga.
> So a bored and needy Mulder is very in character---a baloon with air let out.
I've always hated Chinga because of the characterization of Mulder. Hover, this is
the first time I've read an explanation for it that sounds plausible. I still don't
like that ep, but this makes it a little easier to take.
Julia Milton
> He was incredibly awkward (as well he would have been, being a middle
aged
> loner bachelor, as you said, very private, person.) Yeee. Give the guy
a
> break?!
Oooooh ... Mulder/Duchovny is 37 and that's ... <snif> middle-aged?
I guess it could be.
I feel so o-o-old.
Creak.
-- Julia, off to dye her grey hair
Julia Milton
> Mulder was mugging for the mirror, trying out the body he was stuck in,
> seeing how it moved, how it felt. This was the first time he had really
> gotten a good look at himself and I think he was trying to cover up a
> dawning sense of panic by acting a bit silly.
I also thought that, in a panicked/crazy kind of way, Mulder was actually
*hoping* that the figure in the mirror would turn out to be another person
after all. He even did tried the Groucho gambit of hiding "out of view" to
the left of the mirror, and then suddenly hippity-hopping across with one
leg extended. (The only thing Mulder missed out was the spin and ta-da at
the end.)
It was also fun to see Duchovny and McKean try to keep up with each other.
There were one or two moments when they didn't. If only Mulder had watched
more carefully...
--- Julia
Deborah A Tinsley
Julia Milton <mil...@sprint.cough.ca> wrote in article
<01be1da7$946f0400$750767d1@default>...
>
> I also thought that, in a panicked/crazy kind of way, Mulder was actually
> *hoping* that the figure in the mirror would turn out to be another
person
> after all. He even did tried the Groucho gambit of hiding "out of view"
to
> the left of the mirror, and then suddenly hippity-hopping across with one
> leg extended. (The only thing Mulder missed out was the spin and ta-da
at
> the end.)
This was my take on it. Mulder has seen and experienced so much weird stuff
that he's a blooded veteran. He's learned to all out panic. He often uses
humor to dispel his terror-- re PBV, joking during the terrorist lie
detector test and when it looked like he was going to be executed. Scary as
this was, switching bodies, it wasn't immediately life threatening and I
think he hadn't actually realized exactly how dire his situation could be.
Remember in the gas station, or just after, when he asks how they are going
to fix things and the look on his face when he's told it may not be
fixable.
> It was also fun to see Duchovny and McKean try to keep up with each
other.
> There were one or two moments when they didn't. If only Mulder had
watched
> more carefully...
>
> --- Julia
I didn't notice this. I'll have to go back and watch it again.
Deborah
Barbara462
>
>I guess it could be.
Well, he's 38, and I'm a couple of years on the high side of 40, so i can say
it...tho I feel like 18
GeoRed
<Major Snip>
>Mulder is serious so often, he must occasionally break his angst and be silly
>(especially when he's alone)...so we got to peek at Mulder in one of those
>moments. It's not out of character--just out of what we know of the
>character.
> And now we know. And now we know he dreams of Scully, too. We didn't know
>that before either.
>
>Gee, this has gotten to be longer than I intended, sorry
Well done. Couldn't have said it better myself. <g>
Heidi
::::::::with head in hands, rocking slowly::::::::::
"It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter."
<Mulder: He's not just lean.......he's cuisine.>
GeoRed
In article <19981201184436...@ng112.aol.com>, barba...@aol.com
(Barbara462) writes:
>>I don't see a dork or a dweeb or even an overgrown child - just a very
>>private, lonely, highly intelligent, driven man who somehow has managed
>>to retain a sense of wonder about the universe and its mysteries.
>>
>
>Yes! Exactly. I can't see why everyone seems to be complaining about
>Mulder's
>characterization. He WASN"T Mulder. He was scared he'd be recognized and
>endanger himself and/or Scully; he was curious and a bit intrigued; He was
>horrified at the scene in the kitchen and trying to cope as well as he could.
>
>He was incredibly awkward (as well he would have been, being a middle aged
>loner bachelor, as you said, very private, person.) Yeee. Give the guy a
>break?!
Gee, why on earth would he be acting oddly? He is only stuck in a body that is
in far less good shape than the one he is accustomed to. He is terrified he
may be stuck in it permanently, doing a job that is the antithesis of
everything he stands for. He has a ready made family that he cannot in good
conscience (unlike Morris) just up and leave. He misses *Scully*, for gods
sake. And he truely does not know what he is going to do about it. And people
are upset that he forgets to change clothes? That he is wigged out? Please.
Maggie Helwig
> >Oooooh ... Mulder/Duchovny is 37 and that's ... <snif> middle-aged?
> >
> >I guess it could be.
>
> Well, he's 38, and I'm a couple of years on the high side of 40, so i can say
> it...tho I feel like 18
No, _Mulder_ is 37, though Duchovny may be 38 (I dunno). Mulder was born
October 13, 1961. I was born October 23, 1961. So believe me I am aware
what age Mulder is.
And yes, it is strange to hear Mulder described as a "middle-aged
bachelor", and this may be the first time it's happened, but strictly,
it _is_ true. What a weird thought ...
maggie h
Barbara462
>October 13, 1961. I was born October 23, 1961. So believe me I am aware
>what age Mulder is.
>
>And yes, it is strange to hear Mulder described as a "middle-aged
>bachelor", and this may be the first time it's happened, but strictly,
>it _is_ true. What a weird thought ...
>
>maggie h
But of course, you're right, maggie. It is a strange thought, too.
OpheliaMac
Yeah, whatever you think of the ass-wiggling dance, that must have been a ton
of work to choreograph.
Maggie Helwig
> >No, _Mulder_ is 37, though Duchovny may be 38 (I dunno). Mulder was born
> >October 13, 1961. I was born October 23, 1961. So believe me I am aware
> >what age Mulder is.
> >
> >And yes, it is strange to hear Mulder described as a "middle-aged
> >bachelor", and this may be the first time it's happened, but strictly,
> >it _is_ true. What a weird thought ...
> >
> >maggie h
>
>
> But of course, you're right, maggie. It is a strange thought, too.
I've actually been thinking lately that one of the unremarked, tacit,
but quite present sources of poignancy in the show is that -- because of
the coincidence of the age the characters were at the beginning and the
time it's been running -- we are in fact following them into the cusp of
middle age. Scully was not yet thirty when she started work on the
X-Files, and she looked and even acted almost like a kid. Now she's
about to turn thirty-five, and she has lines developing on her face and
looks tired most of the time. She's beautiful, but she's not young and
no one would ever think she was. Kersh's secretary is visibly younger
than her and knows it. (Of course the fact that Scully has also been
through abduction, cancer, infertility and so on and on has to some
extent aged her prematurely.)
Mulder really is a middle-aged bachelor - again, still good-looking, but
aging around the edges. And they must both be quite aware that time is
passing, that they are only getting older, and that they don't seem to
be getting much of anywhere in their lives ... they are no longer
brilliant young agents, they are peculiar folk in an inexplicable career
pattern with no forward movement and very little job security. And when
you're thirty or even thirty-two you can be like that and still easily
imagine that things will be different someday, but it starts to get
harder when you're thirty-five or thirty-seven and you've got a whole
lot of pain behind you.
I've noticed more and more fan-fic writers making the characters --
particularly Mulder, who after all is pushing forty -- reflect on their
age. And while I don't want them to do it out loud on the show (God
forbid!) I think it's hanging around in the subtext.
maggie h
Magpie
>Is it just me or is this season's Mulder is
>VERY MUCH the "Overgrown Child" as
>opposed to last season's matured cynic?
Hmmm, here's a challenge!
Let's see if I can put a different spin on it:
I don't know whether I would naturally put "mature" and "cynic"
together. I know mature people can be cynical, but too much
cynicism, to me, is more adolescent than mature. It's easy to say
"everything sucks". It's more brave to see a way things could be
better and try to make it happen. I think you can be somewhat
idealistic without being completely naive and that *extreme*
cynicism can be just masked cowardice.
>Just add a genuine UFO and
>*presto* He's a 12 years old again.
Well, I would be too! It's a UFO!!!!
>Mulder is stunted in his development,
>forever young like Tom Hanks's
>character in BIG.
Actually, a lot of the qualities Mulder has that seem childish to
us today may are common in heroes out of the past. The 3
Musketeers are pretty boyish, too, but they effect (affect? I
never know which is right!) great changes.
I'd guess all great minds see the world with wonder.
A hundred years ago it was "childish" to dream of building
a flying machine, or go to the moon...
>When you look at Mulder's behavior
>for this perspective, it makes sense,
>oddly enough, as to why he does the things
>he does.
>For Example
>-------------------------------------------------
>
>"I got the coolest job in the world!"
>Mulder's crusade explained.
>Silly boy Mulder gets to chase aliens & UFOs
>and other icky things and he gets paid for it!
Of course, this assumes that real adults do jobs that don't
excite them. I think your average paleontologist also
thinks he's got the coolest job in the world, doing just what
he/she did when he/she was a kid. And again, if you look at
the 3 Musketeers--when D'Artagnan gets his uniform he spends
his first day walking back and forth around the camp to show
it off. :) That's a perk of growing up, you get to be what
you want to be and do what you love (if you're lucky).
>"You'll take care of me won't you Scully?"
>Mulder/Scully relationship explained.
>Scully is a substitute mother figure.
>(Perhaps the mom he never had?)
>Scully keeps him in line and punishes his misdeeds.
>Why, she'll even blow on the alcohol to make it
>hurt less like any good mom would.
Very true. But you could also see it as a sign of maturity that
Mulder can admit to needing help. It would be more childish to
pretend he's too tough to need her. Like when Scully has to
inform him that he's in shock and might want to sit down before
he keels over. Can't always be the brave little soldier!
>"Hey guys, let's crack into a top secret Government
>building! Oh wait, but first, check out this really cool
>picture I stole off the Pentagon mainframe!"
>Mulder's choice in friends explained.
>The Lone Gunmen are exactly the type of chums
>little boy Mulder would pal around with.
>The Gunmen are kids too.
Yup. But have you ever worked on Wall Street? Filled with
little boys--just different kinds of little boys with different
toys (i.e., piles of money and nerf footballs to throw at others
and say, "think fast!")
>"Oooh. Giggle giggle giggle. She's naked. Giggle giggle"
>Pornography habit explained.
>It's a case of naughty boy antics meets coy curiosity.
Well, he didn't look all too curious in Dreamland. Turned on the
porno and promptly fell asleep.;) Mulder does substitute "safe"
porno for real women, but I don't think it's *totally* out of fear
or social ineptness. He has made a conscious decision to put his
work first, making dating a little tough. Do we know how Scully
deals with her lack of a sex life? (Perhaps her apartment is filled
with erotic needlepoint pillows).
>After trying to kiss Scully: "I'm sorry."
>The 'what-is-he-waiting-for?' explained.
>Mulder has no idea what to do with a real woman.
>I reminds me of the movie BIG.
>My God! He's barely over the "Girls have cooties" phase. ;p
Big time fear of rejection here. But to be fair, he had little
reason to think Scully has just been waiting for him to kiss her.
>"But this is a normal life Scully."
>Mulder's disinterest in settling down explained.
>Mulder doesn't see his life as odd or lacking in
>anyway. It's his dream come true. Family & girls
>are he last thing on his mind. He wants to go out
>and play.
I don't know about this. I think he does see his life as different
from other people's, but he is being true to himself. From what
we've learned in the mytharc, Mulder's been raised to be and do
what he is. He realizes he has no business trying to raise a
family with this life, but he's still a better husband/father than
Morris Fletcher who has the wife and the kids, but skips out on
the responsibility. Mulder probably *listened* to Mrs. Fletcher
more in those few minutes than Morris has their whole marriage.
>"Orders, smorders. Who needs 'em?"
>The brat employee explained.
>Mulder has a serious need for a MAJOR spanking.
I don't know that Mulder has trouble following rules for their
own sake, it's just that his priorities don't match those of
the FBI. That sounds like an excuse, I know, but look at it this
way. If a law interferes with the greater good, Mulder ignores it.
The MIB's commit murder because it's "policy".
This season, M's been assigned to scut work not because he's needed
there, but as punishment. Why not continue to try to make a
difference? Even Scully isn't going along with the FBI this season!
Mulder doesn't always disregard protocol, as far as
we know. He comes dressed for work, hands in his (questionable)
expense reports and fills out paperwork. Scully was pretty
surprised to see him playing computer golf at his desk.
>"What? Wash dishes? Clean the office? *Snort*"
>Mulder housekeeping explained.
>"Cleaning is Mom's job and
>if she's not doing it, neither am I."
Do we know that Mulder is a slob? I could be forgetting scenes that
let us know this, but I've never noticed it. I think fanfic tends
to make Mulder more of an Oscar Madison than he really is. I mean,
he's a single man who's been taking care of himself since his late
teens, probably. Single people can get eccentric (believe me, I am
one). He keeps his areas the way he likes them. They may be messy,
but they're not health hazards, as far as we can see. He keeps his
fish alive, pays his bills. He dresses himself well and is clean.
People have different ideas of what they can live with. Just ask
my roomate, who can't figure out how I could leave an empty envelope
on the coffee table for three months and when she finally asks about
it can say, "oh, did I leave that there?" (Can you tell I'm a lot
like FM?)
>"See you later Scully."
>The ditch explained.
>Mulder is stuck in the me-first stage of development.
>It never occurs to him that what he does effects
>other people.
He's getting a little better at this <g>. However, I think the
partnership is a difficult balance to hit. On the one hand, he
absolutely must learn to work with a partner and let her know
what's going on. OTOH, Scully is not his wife, and if he wants
to jet out to the Bermuda Triangle to check out a ship, that's his
business.
>"But.. but... It's wrong Mr. Bad Guy."
>Mulder ideology explained.
>He's a wide-eyed innocent in world
>of ugly jaded people.
But it *is* wrong! In the face of an uncaring world, Mulder refuses
to lower his moral standards!:) We *are* usually talking about murder.
Actually, Mulder doesn't have trouble understanding *all* bad guys--
serial killers make sense to him. (Of course, they are often in a
state of arrested development themselves.) I think the behavior makes
him so angry he just can't even discuss it.
>I think perhaps the best symbol of this was
>in Fight the Future. Mulder sees the Spaceship and
>after all the danger he just went through to
>save Scully, he can still sit on the edge and marvel at
>it in a childlike fascination.
Okay, I was doing that too. ;) It's a spaceship!!! <bg>
>IMHO, The whole journey of the X-Files is
>about Mulder learning there are
>more than two colors in the world.
>More than black and white.
>Nothing is ever totally evil or totally good.
>As soon as he realizes that, he becomes an adult,
>the show ends and he & Scully can hop in the sack. ;p
I don't know if I'd put it exactly this way. From
what we know, Mulder has grown up in the world of
gray. His parents are both very ambiguous people. He
just insists on finding the good in them. (more Luke
Skywalker parallels.)
Really, one could make a case for _Scully_ being the one
who is learning see the world as it really is. She
was the one who thought Mulder was crazy for believing there
could be a conspiracy at work, who followed the rules
even when they're used to hurt her.
>I guess taking his character this direction this
>season is the only way it can go. It's a
>reasonable explanation for his behavior.
I think another thing that's led to Mulder's childlike
demeanor this season is that he's accepted that he loves
Scully and that's okay, as hokey as that sounds. Even
it it's not a romantic love (right, Circe? :) it's something
he can count on. It's made him happier, so he expresses
himself more freely.
Whew! How'd I do? :)
-m
Maggie Helwig
a lot of good stuff, most of which I've snipped. I'm coming late to this
thread, but I do really dislike this "Mulder has never grown up"
business. Perhaps in large part because some of the characteristics
which people bring forward to prove Mulder's arrested development are
those I share with him ...
> angry...@aol.com (AngryPhile) wrote:
> >"Oooh. Giggle giggle giggle. She's naked. Giggle giggle"
> >Pornography habit explained.
> >It's a case of naughty boy antics meets coy curiosity.
>
> Well, he didn't look all too curious in Dreamland. Turned on the
> porno and promptly fell asleep.;) Mulder does substitute "safe"
> porno for real women, but I don't think it's *totally* out of fear
> or social ineptness.
There are actually perfectly normal grown-up people who enjoy porn. And
Magpie's right that it's hardly a giggly reaction. Most of the time that
he's watching porn he looks kind of bored, actually. His work-focussed
and unusual life has not allowed for a lot of sexual expression, but it
looks like, given a choice, he'd rather have a lover than porn. The fact
that he'd apparently rather have porn than casual sex could speak more
to maturity than immaturity.
> >After trying to kiss Scully: "I'm sorry."
> >The 'what-is-he-waiting-for?' explained.
> >Mulder has no idea what to do with a real woman.
> >I reminds me of the movie BIG.
> >My God! He's barely over the "Girls have cooties" phase. ;p
C'mon, she cried out and pulled away from him. Maybe it suggests a
slightly low opinion of himself that he assumes she's repulsed by him,
but it's not like he jumped away and apologized with no provocation at
all. I think Mulder has a reasonably clear idea what to do with a woman.
He _has_ had relationships. He may have been married, fergodsake. If
either of them is having trouble dealing with the idea of a relationship
at this point it's Scully, not him.
> >"But this is a normal life Scully."
> >Mulder's disinterest in settling down explained.
> >Mulder doesn't see his life as odd or lacking in
> >anyway. It's his dream come true. Family & girls
> >are he last thing on his mind. He wants to go out
> >and play.
>
This is where I start reacting personally. Surely the whole point of
this episode is that "a normal life" as strictly defined can really
suck. Mulder has a vision. It's not "play", it's a calling. Can't
someone choose to live a _different_ life? I mean, people do. Artists,
visionaries, political dissidents, mystics ... Maybe Mulder's a little
too hopeful in suggesting that he leads a "normal" life, but he leads a
meaningful life, which is surely what being a grown-up is really about.
Also, if "girls" are the last thing on Mulder's mind that is probably
all to the good, but I don't think _women_ are absent. Lately one woman
in particular has been very prominent in his mind. And as far as I can
see they _are_ working out the contours of their own, not exactly
normal, life.
> he's still a better husband/father than
> Morris Fletcher who has the wife and the kids, but skips out on
> the responsibility. Mulder probably *listened* to Mrs. Fletcher
> more in those few minutes than Morris has their whole marriage.
Good deal of truth there. Who actually seems more mature? Mulder, or Mr
"Get Your Panties On Straight"?
> >"What? Wash dishes? Clean the office? *Snort*"
> >Mulder housekeeping explained.
> >"Cleaning is Mom's job and
> >if she's not doing it, neither am I."
>
> Do we know that Mulder is a slob? I could be forgetting scenes that
> let us know this, but I've never noticed it. I think fanfic tends
> to make Mulder more of an Oscar Madison than he really is. I mean,
> he's a single man who's been taking care of himself since his late
> teens, probably. Single people can get eccentric (believe me, I am
> one).
Hell, married people can be eccentric. I have a long-term relationship
and a child, and I keep the door to my office shut at all times because
I would be mortified if anyone saw the state it's in. And I never cook.
When I was single I cleaned the house about once a year and never ate
anything that wasn't take-out. I did manage to feed my cat but that was
about my limit. Mulder's probably more domestic than I have ever been.
> >"But.. but... It's wrong Mr. Bad Guy."
> >Mulder ideology explained.
> >He's a wide-eyed innocent in world
> >of ugly jaded people.
Again, I'm like that, in my way. Come to one of my nonviolence
trainings, you'll laugh. Mulder's not so "innocent" though (neither am
I). He _knows_ what these people are all about. He just refuses to
accept that the world has to be that way. This is the core of Mulder.
This is the reason we care about him. Maybe Mulder is far _more_ mature
than most people, at least in this respect. Was Martin Luther King just
a baby?
None of the above however -- again in my opinion -- excuses that bit of
dancing in his underwear. I _still_ maintain that this was just one
piece of hasty writing based on a need to pad the script. I've heard all
the arguments to the contrary but I remain unconvinced.
maggie h, being stubborn
GeoRed
>angry...@aol.com (AngryPhile) wrote:
>>Is it just me or is this season's Mulder is
>>VERY MUCH the "Overgrown Child" as
>>opposed to last season's matured cynic?
>
>Hmmm, here's a challenge!
>Let's see if I can put a different spin on it:
>
>I don't know whether I would naturally put "mature" and "cynic"
>together. I know mature people can be cynical, but too much
>cynicism, to me, is more adolescent than mature. It's easy to say
>"everything sucks". It's more brave to see a way things could be
>better and try to make it happen. I think you can be somewhat
>idealistic without being completely naive and that *extreme*
>cynicism can be just masked cowardice.
Ditto. And have I told you lately that I love you? <g>
>>Just add a genuine UFO and
>>*presto* He's a 12 years old again.
>Well, I would be too! It's a UFO!!!!
I am 36 and I have child-like wonder at DD in boxers. Why can't I have one of
those? <g> Seriously, I have to wonder at people who wouldn't have a sense of
wonder about such a thing. I think it is delightful.......actually, I think
Scully must see it that way as well.
>>Mulder is stunted in his development,
>>forever young like Tom Hanks's
>>character in BIG.
>
>Actually, a lot of the qualities Mulder has that seem childish to
>us today may are common in heroes out of the past. The 3
>Musketeers are pretty boyish, too, but they effect (affect? I
>never know which is right!) great changes.
>I'd guess all great minds see the world with wonder.
>A hundred years ago it was "childish" to dream of building
>a flying machine, or go to the moon...
This is a quality that is *required* for a person to be a good scientist, IMO.
It is important. Otherwise, you wouldn't *dream* of trying something new.
>>When you look at Mulder's behavior
>>for this perspective, it makes sense,
>>oddly enough, as to why he does the things
>>he does.
>
>>For Example
>>-------------------------------------------------
>>
>>"I got the coolest job in the world!"
>>Mulder's crusade explained.
>>Silly boy Mulder gets to chase aliens & UFOs
>>and other icky things and he gets paid for it!
>
>Of course, this assumes that real adults do jobs that don't
>excite them. I think your average paleontologist also
>thinks he's got the coolest job in the world, doing just what
>he/she did when he/she was a kid. And again, if you look at
>the 3 Musketeers--when D'Artagnan gets his uniform he spends
>his first day walking back and forth around the camp to show
>it off. :) That's a perk of growing up, you get to be what
>you want to be and do what you love (if you're lucky).
And I don't understand why being thrilled with your job is a sign of
immaturity. Or that just because he looks for and believes in UFO's he is
childish. That is rather condescending, isn't it? That is what he *wants* to
do. It is kind of like being pooh-poohed because you decided to be a homemaker
instead of a geologist.....or vice versa. Kind of insulting and denigrating.
Not that you meant it that way. <g>
>>"You'll take care of me won't you Scully?"
>>Mulder/Scully relationship explained.
>>Scully is a substitute mother figure.
>>(Perhaps the mom he never had?)
>>Scully keeps him in line and punishes his misdeeds.
>>Why, she'll even blow on the alcohol to make it
>>hurt less like any good mom would.
>
>Very true. But you could also see it as a sign of maturity that
>Mulder can admit to needing help. It would be more childish to
>pretend he's too tough to need her. Like when Scully has to
>inform him that he's in shock and might want to sit down before
>he keels over. Can't always be the brave little soldier!
Actually, Mulder is the more emotionally mature of the duo, IMO. It takes far
greater strength to admit you need help than it does to be stoic. Other than
that, I see it as part of *Scully's* makeup that she needs to take care of him
(although, I think this is more fanfic fodder than anything) more than it is
Mulder. Scully is the one who *does* it...... and the one who supposedly
punishes. Not that this is a bad thing......and not that I believe it to be
true (I don't see the punishment thing at all). If Mulder were to walk around
saying, "I'm fine" all the time what would we say? Macho man.....emotionally
stunted, etc. So, Mulder can't win.
>>"Hey guys, let's crack into a top secret Government
>>building! Oh wait, but first, check out this really cool
>>picture I stole off the Pentagon mainframe!"
>>Mulder's choice in friends explained.
>>The Lone Gunmen are exactly the type of chums
>>little boy Mulder would pal around with.
>>The Gunmen are kids too.
>
>Yup. But have you ever worked on Wall Street? Filled with
>little boys--just different kinds of little boys with different
>toys (i.e., piles of money and nerf footballs to throw at others
>and say, "think fast!")
Two words:
Bill Gates
Again, why is this a bad thing? What is wrong with this? Nothing, IMO. I
*like* these guys......much more fun than your average stuffed shirt.
>>"Oooh. Giggle giggle giggle. She's naked. Giggle giggle"
>>Pornography habit explained.
>>It's a case of naughty boy antics meets coy curiosity.
>
>Well, he didn't look all too curious in Dreamland. Turned on the
>porno and promptly fell asleep.;) Mulder does substitute "safe"
>porno for real women, but I don't think it's *totally* out of fear
>or social ineptness. He has made a conscious decision to put his
>work first, making dating a little tough. Do we know how Scully
>deals with her lack of a sex life? (Perhaps her apartment is filled
>with erotic needlepoint pillows).
Again, what is wrong with safe sex? Or working so hard you don't have time to
date. Or being *in love* with someone you don't feel comfortable approaching
and substituting with porn? Would you rather he hired a prostitute? Was a
serial dater? That is *not* more mature. Naughty boy antics? How is that
possible when he is alone in a room sleeping to porn and not gathered around a
playboy with the gunmen? Gee, I am currently unattached......and I harbor
electronic devices in my apartment......I must have the mind of a twelve year
old. <g>. Does this make sense? No....it means I am *responsible*.....I don't
go out and pick up men. Although I certainly could. Would that make me more
mature, or more stupid and reckless?
>>After trying to kiss Scully: "I'm sorry."
>>The 'what-is-he-waiting-for?' explained.
>>Mulder has no idea what to do with a real woman.
>>I reminds me of the movie BIG.
>>My God! He's barely over the "Girls have cooties" phase. ;p
>Big time fear of rejection here. But to be fair, he had little
>reason to think Scully has just been waiting for him to kiss her.
Exactly. And anyone who has ever gone out on a limb to kiss someone will know
that there is a bit of nerves in the old stomach whilst waiting for the
slap.....be it physical or emotional. It is called being a human being. I
think Mulder has a very clear idea of what to do with real women if Phoebe and
Diana are any indication. Sure, they are poor choices but who hasn't made
those. They certainly seemed to find *no* problems with him in the *doing*
arena....in fact, I think it is safe to say that both of them were trying to
get back into his bed. Maybe it's just me, but I don't go back to the inept.
<g>
>>"But this is a normal life Scully."
>>Mulder's disinterest in settling down explained.
>>Mulder doesn't see his life as odd or lacking in
>>anyway. It's his dream come true. Family & girls
>>are he last thing on his mind. He wants to go out
>>and play.
>I don't know about this. I think he does see his life as different
>from other people's, but he is being true to himself.
Which takes a good deal of strength and maturity. He most likely considers
himself settled down with Scully.....that is how I interpreted his remarks.
And that is why he sticks to porn. Anything else would be construed as a
betrayal.
> From what
>we've learned in the mytharc, Mulder's been raised to be and do
>what he is. He realizes he has no business trying to raise a
>family with this life, but he's still a better husband/father than
>Morris Fletcher who has the wife and the kids, but skips out on
>the responsibility. Mulder probably *listened* to Mrs. Fletcher
>more in those few minutes than Morris has their whole marriage.
Yes indeed. I think that in his position, having a child would be a selfish
move. A need to establish his manhood. I think that many people jump into
having children quickly without considering all the ramifications.
>>"Orders, smorders. Who needs 'em?"
>>The brat employee explained.
>>Mulder has a serious need for a MAJOR spanking.
>
>I don't know that Mulder has trouble following rules for their
>own sake, it's just that his priorities don't match those of
>the FBI. That sounds like an excuse, I know, but look at it this
>way. If a law interferes with the greater good, Mulder ignores it.
>The MIB's commit murder because it's "policy".
Exactly. From what we have seen the "book" is wrong. Skinner even knew
that.....he turned a blind eye to much of what Mulder did for a *reason*. For
this, he was removed. Hell, Mulder was ordered to stay out of that case in The
End....Skinner is the one who got him in there. It also doesn't hurt that most
of the people giving the so-called orders are *corrupt*.......not something
that should be overlooked in this discussion. It makes a huge difference. It
changes Mulder from a so-called brat, to a man with principles. The man who
shot the clerk in Dreamlands was probably following *orders*. Is he more
mature, or better than Mulder? Hardly.
>This season, M's been assigned to scut work not because he's needed
>there, but as punishment. Why not continue to try to make a
>difference? Even Scully isn't going along with the FBI this season!
And I am damn glad. The immature little wench. <g>
>Mulder doesn't always disregard protocol, as far as
>we know. He comes dressed for work, hands in his (questionable)
>expense reports and fills out paperwork. Scully was pretty
>surprised to see him playing computer golf at his desk.
He does follow protocol except when it is an obstruction to justice or the
cause. It is often used to obstruct him purposefully. By the *bad* guys.
>>"What? Wash dishes? Clean the office? *Snort*"
>>Mulder housekeeping explained.
>>"Cleaning is Mom's job and
>>if she's not doing it, neither am I."
>
>Do we know that Mulder is a slob? I could be forgetting scenes that
>let us know this, but I've never noticed it. I think fanfic tends
>to make Mulder more of an Oscar Madison than he really is. I mean,
>he's a single man who's been taking care of himself since his late
>teens, probably. Single people can get eccentric (believe me, I am
>one). He keeps his areas the way he likes them. They may be messy,
>but they're not health hazards, as far as we can see. He keeps his
>fish alive, pays his bills. He dresses himself well and is clean.
>People have different ideas of what they can live with. Just ask
>my roomate, who can't figure out how I could leave an empty envelope
>on the coffee table for three months and when she finally asks about
>it can say, "oh, did I leave that there?" (Can you tell I'm a lot
>like FM?)
Actually, his desk is clean enough for Scully to leave a rose petal on it in
Never Again and have it be very noticable. For that matter, we know next to
nothing about whether his apartment is dirty or not.......it usually looks
quite neat actually. He has lots of stuff but it is not haphazard. My
apartment is dirtier, as is my desk at work........and what does this have to
do with being a child? I know a four year old whose bedroom is neater than
mine. Some people are just neater than others. And some people say that
geniuses have the messiest desks. <g> Ahhh, that explains it.
>>"See you later Scully."
>>The ditch explained.
>>Mulder is stuck in the me-first stage of development.
>>It never occurs to him that what he does effects
>>other people.
>
>He's getting a little better at this <g>. However, I think the
>partnership is a difficult balance to hit. On the one hand, he
>absolutely must learn to work with a partner and let her know
>what's going on. OTOH, Scully is not his wife, and if he wants
>to jet out to the Bermuda Triangle to check out a ship, that's his
>business.
Damn straight. Most of the cases people call ditches I completely disagree
with. What, are they joined at the hip? So, I guess that when Scully went to
Maine, that was a ditch? No. It is a fine line to walk, certainly. He spends
his down time doing things that can get him into trouble. Does he owe it to
Scully to inform her of his weekend plans? Hardly. The thing that I like about
Mulder is his absolute certainty that Scully can handle parts of cases *on her
own*. She does not need him hovering over her or holding her hand. This is a
great sign of respect. He trusts her and treats her as an equal. OTOH, Scully
finds herself embroiled in a case and calls Mulder away from his off time for
help and does not give him any information. She runs the case. Does Mulder
whine? No, he does as she wishes and provides a steadying influence that she
*says* she needs. Is this a ScullyDitch? Of course not. But it is
interesting to note how many say Mulder is ditching when he does the exact same
thing. Mulder and Scully do not seem to *mind* these aspects of each others
personalities, in fact I think they *like* them. I know I do.
>>"But.. but... It's wrong Mr. Bad Guy."
>>Mulder ideology explained.
>>He's a wide-eyed innocent in world
>>of ugly jaded people.
>
>But it *is* wrong! In the face of an uncaring world, Mulder refuses
>to lower his moral standards!:) We *are* usually talking about murder.
Again, you are correct. And this is a sign of strength. The refusal to "cave
in" and do what is easy. What is so mature about being jaded? And why is it a
*good* thing?
>Actually, Mulder doesn't have trouble understanding *all* bad guys--
>serial killers make sense to him. (Of course, they are often in a
>state of arrested development themselves.) I think the behavior makes
>him so angry he just can't even discuss it.
>
>>I think perhaps the best symbol of this was
>>in Fight the Future. Mulder sees the Spaceship and
>>after all the danger he just went through to
>>save Scully, he can still sit on the edge and marvel at
>>it in a childlike fascination.
>
>Okay, I was doing that too. ;) It's a spaceship!!! <bg>
Who the hell wouldn't? Except maybe CSM. <g>
>>IMHO, The whole journey of the X-Files is
>>about Mulder learning there are
>>more than two colors in the world.
>>More than black and white.
>>Nothing is ever totally evil or totally good.
>>As soon as he realizes that, he becomes an adult,
>>the show ends and he & Scully can hop in the sack. ;p
>
>I don't know if I'd put it exactly this way. From
>what we know, Mulder has grown up in the world of
>gray. His parents are both very ambiguous people. He
>just insists on finding the good in them. (more Luke
>Skywalker parallels.)
>
>Really, one could make a case for _Scully_ being the one
>who is learning see the world as it really is. She
>was the one who thought Mulder was crazy for believing there
>could be a conspiracy at work, who followed the rules
>even when they're used to hurt her.
For sure. Mulder is *looking* for the black and white. The right and wrong.
He is used to gray. Yes, Scully is the one who is doing the learning here. She
*used* to be Ms. Black and White. Mulder is just getting confirmation of
something he suspected all along.
>>I guess taking his character this direction this
>>season is the only way it can go. It's a
>>reasonable explanation for his behavior.
>
>I think another thing that's led to Mulder's childlike
>demeanor this season is that he's accepted that he loves
>Scully and that's okay, as hokey as that sounds. Even
>it it's not a romantic love (right, Circe? :) it's something
>he can count on. It's made him happier, so he expresses
>himself more freely.
>
>Whew! How'd I do? :)
Fantastic! Mulder is, quite simply, happy. He has accepted his feelings for
Scully, he saw the space ship, he got his belief back. For awhile he thought
his entire life was a *lie*......now, he is fairly sure that it isn't. That's
got to be a load off.
I think that much of the things discussed here have their roots in fanfic.
Which of course means that *some* people see things this way (or perhaps they
want to). I do not think it is *true* and I think that fanfic tends to
exaggerate......and over time fanfic becomes it's own sort of canon (strawberry
shampoo??). Especially when *everyone* reads it. It is a cyclical
exaggeration. It becomes difficult to distinguish the fanfic exaggerations and
what is actually seen on the screen. Not that fanfic is a bad thing, at all,
seeing as how I am writing one. <g>
Maggie Helwig
> Yes indeed. I think that in his position, having a child would be a selfish
> move. A need to establish his manhood. I think that many people jump into
> having children quickly without considering all the ramifications.
Besides which, if you are right (as I think you are) that he considers
himself to be effectively "settled down" with Scully, then children are
simply not a possibility, even if he wanted. And it can take
considerable maturity to come to terms with that, as I think he has
done.
maggie h
Bjm1352
> Yes indeed. I think that in his position, having a child would be a selfish
> move. A need to establish his manhood. I think that many people jump into
> having children quickly without considering all the ramifications.
maggie h wrote:
Besides which, if you are right (as I think you are) that he considers
himself to be effectively "settled down" with Scully, then children are
simply not a possibility, even if he wanted. And it can take
considerable maturity to come to terms with that, as I think he has
done.>>
Maggie, if by "simply not a possibility" you mean because Scully and Mulder
believe that Scully is no longer able to conceive a child, I believe there are
two counter-arguments:
1) things on the X-Files are frequently not what they seemed to be! (Perhaps
the long-term effect of the implant in Scully's neck is to regenerate ova???
Who knows what CC is thinking!)
2) someone else brought up this point elsewhere, but I don't recall who it
was... but what happened to that vial of ova that Mulder took in "Memento
Mori"?
Just a couple thoughts rattling around in my brain... : )
bjm1352
(please address e-mail to: bjm...@aol.com)
"Scully" "Yeah?" "Marry me."
gwaihir
>I think another thing that's led to Mulder's childlike
>demeanor this season is that he's accepted that he loves
>Scully and that's okay, as hokey as that sounds. Even
>it it's not a romantic love (right, Circe? :) it's something
>he can count on. It's made him happier, so he expresses
>himself more freely.
>
>Whew! How'd I do? :)
Well said. Well reasoned. We are seeing a more relaxed,
revitalized Mulder who feels his beliefs have been vindicated,
if not yet proven.
RobinS1013
intelligent conversation going on here. I finally feel the need to pipe in. :
)
>I don't see a dork or a dweeb or even an overgrown child - just a very
>private, lonely, highly intelligent, driven man who somehow has managed
>to retain a sense of wonder about the universe and its mysteries.
I tend to agree with this. A few people have compared season five Mulder to
season six, and while I adore Dark, Intense!Mulder from PBV, I think that in
some cases, skepticism is almost being mistaken for maturity. A sense of
wonder is not necessarily a childlike quality. I think an adult who is able to
retain this quality is one of the lucky ones. Maybe this SHOWS his brilliance.
(for a long time, I've described Mulder as "brilliant" and Scully as
"extremely intelligent," not because one is better than the other, but because
they're such DIFFERENT forms of minds)
Can Mulder have his geeky moments? Of course. But that's why we love him,
right? Perfection is a highly overrated quality. Mulder (and Scully) are
REAL. They're distrurbing. They're disfunctional. They're irritating.
They're irrational. The relationship continues to be so intriguing because
it's so complicated, not cut and dry, he likes me he doesn't flowers and candy
we see so often in movies.
I apologize for digressing slightly, not quite an uncommon experience for me ;
)
~Kat
"Tell people there are more than 300,000 stars in the universe and they will
believe you without question. Tell them a porch railing has wet paint on it
and they have to touch it to make sure"
AngryPhile
Thanks for all the warm rebukes.
Mulder has many nice defenders here on atxfa.
I guess I should have made my position
on the issue more clear.
My silly post was playing devil's advocate.
I don't endorse the 'Mulder as a child' idea.
I've only noticed that the writers are playing
this card, like it or not.
Some of the ideas fit into this psychoanalysis,
other don't as neatly. Either way, it can't be
ignored.
My only hope is that the entire 6th season
is not spent exploring this one aspect of
Mulder's personality. It's a fun concept
and allows for Mulder's silly side to show,
but I don't know if I can take too much of it.
(Unless he's dancing around in his underwear)
I like a balance between the many faces of Mulder.
aP
Maggie Helwig
> maggie h wrote:
>
> Besides which, if you are right (as I think you are) that he considers
> himself to be effectively "settled down" with Scully, then children are
> simply not a possibility, even if he wanted. And it can take
> considerable maturity to come to terms with that, as I think he has
> done.>>
>
> Maggie, if by "simply not a possibility" you mean because Scully and Mulder
> believe that Scully is no longer able to conceive a child, I believe there are
> two counter-arguments:
>
> 1) things on the X-Files are frequently not what they seemed to be! (Perhaps
> the long-term effect of the implant in Scully's neck is to regenerate ova???
> Who knows what CC is thinking!)
>
> 2) someone else brought up this point elsewhere, but I don't recall who it
> was... but what happened to that vial of ova that Mulder took in "Memento
> Mori"?
Those ova were dead and gone within seconds of being taken out of cold
storage. If indeed Mulder still has them, their only value is as some
kind of souvenir.
As for any other possibilities -- if the writers _ever_ pull some kind
of trick where Scully amazingly gets her fertility back so she and
Mulder can have kiddies, I will hurl. I'm not saying this because I
don't like kids, I'm saying it exactly because I do know how meaningful
it can be to have a child, and how terrible infertility can be for
someone who wants children. To minimize it would be just cheap.
I'm amazed by the number of people who seem to regard Scully's
infertility as a temporary inconvenience. Surely part of the point of
TXF is that they don't live in a magical world where everything gets
sorted out in time for a happy ending (leaving aside the occasional
sweeps week ep ...). Sometimes things get sorted -- they had to put
Scully's cancer into remission because otherwise there would be no more
show -- but there are pains and losses that are very real and tragic and
can't be fixed up. Melissa is dead and she ain't coming back. Pendrell
is dead, likewise. Mulder's father is dead. And Scully is infertile. If
we take these things as less than real, then it's all just game-playing.
I know the writers have their cheap moments, but I just have to believe
that they take the show too seriously to arrange magical-sentimental
fixes for everything.
In any case, getting back to the original argument, Scully _clearly_
believes that her infertility is real and permanent (you heard the way
her voice shook when she mentioned people with children at the
beginning), and all the evidence suggests that Mulder believes this as
well. There was no indication to the contrary in Christmas Carol/Emily.
So certainly from their point of view it's real, and something Mulder
has necessarily taken into account if he has decided that this
relationship is the one he is "settled down" in for the long term.
maggie h
OpheliaMac
>Those ova were dead and gone within seconds of being taken out of cold
You mean Mulder doesn't have a pocket kryogenics unit? (sp?) : )
"Is that a canister of liquid nitrogen in your pocket, or are you just happy to
see me?"
For what it's worth, it's possible that Scully's remaining frozen ova could be
tracked down and she could go the artificial insemination route. Wrote a
story with that as a premise myself. I suppose she could also locate one or
more of Emily's half-siblings and have some kind of relationship with that
child/children.
Infertile is not quite as hopeless as dead.
Magpie
>Bjm1352 <bjm...@aol.com> wrote:<snipping most of it>
>I'm amazed by the number of people who seem to regard Scully's
>infertility as a temporary inconvenience. Surely part of the point of
>TXF is that they don't live in a magical world where everything gets
>sorted out in time for a happy ending (leaving aside the occasional
>sweeps week ep ...). Sometimes things get sorted -- they had to put
>Scully's cancer into remission because otherwise there would be no more
>show -- but there are pains and losses that are very real and tragic and
>can't be fixed up. Melissa is dead and she ain't coming back. Pendrell
>is dead, likewise. Mulder's father is dead. And Scully is infertile. If
>we take these things as less than real, then it's all just game-playing.
>I know the writers have their cheap moments, but I just have to believe
>that they take the show too seriously to arrange magical-sentimental
>fixes for everything.
In his book, "Adventures in the Screen Trade" William Goldman
says he believes there are 2 kinds of movies (or tv, I think).
I believe he classifies them as comic book movies and not-comic
book movies. The distinction is basically that comic book movies
essentially do not exist in the real world. That doesn't mean they
can't be "serious" movies or vice versa (Bambi, is not a comic
book movie, despite being a cartoon). He compares The Deer Hunter
to MASH. Deer Hunter, despite its serious message, is a comic book
movie. It deals with life as we would prefer it to be. So sometimes
the impossible happens.
Like, a character plays Russian roulette for months
and months and is undefeated: impossible. But it works for the
story. MASH, otoh, had characters die when they *shouldn't*.
How could they *kill* Henry Blake? It didn't advance the plot,
if it was supposed to be a joke, it wasn't funny! That's the thing--
it wasn't supposed to be a joke. It was supposed to be stupid and
unfair and without purpose, like life.
TXF is definitely not a comic book show. It might bend reality to
admit a liver-eating squeeze man, but death still holds sway over
all (apologies to EA Poe). That's what gives it such resonance.
-m
Akakan
Magpie <bel...@ibm.net> wrote in article <3666c...@news1.ibm.net>...
> TXF is definitely not a comic book show. It might bend reality to
> admit a liver-eating squeeze man, but death still holds sway over
> all (apologies to EA Poe). That's what gives it such resonance.
That's why we pull the covers to our chins, glancing around to see what
dark things might lie beyond the world that *we* know . . .
Maggie Helwig
> For what it's worth, it's possible that Scully's remaining frozen ova could be
> tracked down and she could go the artificial insemination route. Wrote a
> story with that as a premise myself. I suppose she could also locate one or
> more of Emily's half-siblings and have some kind of relationship with that
> child/children.
>
> Infertile is not quite as hopeless as dead.
But it can be pretty bad.
What bugs me is the way that so many people seem to take an almost
light-hearted attitude to Scully's infertility. "Oh, there's sure to be
some way around this." Sometimes there just _isn't_. I think this is why
Pendrell's death freaked people out so much. They saw him get shot in
the cliffhanger and thought, "Oh, there's bound to be some way out of
this," and 1013 didn't give it to them. I still think that was the best
thing for 1013 to do.
What Scully told her mother in the kitchen sounded very absolute. Too
absolute just for a doctor telling her, "Well, you don't seem to be
ovulating." God knows what all they did to her. It may have been more
than just taking her ova. And as for the Emilys, I don't think any of
them are "children" in any recognizably human sense. That was surely the
point of the episode. Scully may have a lot of offspring out there, but
she doesn't have any "children".
I just don't think it would be right to give us any magical solutions.
maggie h
Konrad Douglas Frye
(Maggie Helwig) writes:
>I just don't think it would be right to give us any magical solutions.
1013's solution to the cancer arc was more or less black magic and very
few fans complained. I don't see why this situation is all that
different. If anything, the very fact that Scully's ova were frozen and
not destroyed presents the writers with an elegant "out" if they ever
have to go looking for one. We still know virtually nothing about what
was done to her while she was gone and in this case, 1013's reluctance
to dish out the facts works to their advantage.
I think we just have to put up with the idea that the limitations of
traditional medical science don't always apply to the X-Files universe.
1013 can't expect us to forget that Samuel Hartley's and ABH's exist in
the world they've created.
-----
Konrad Frye (umfr...@ccu.umanitoba.ca)
Computer Engineering IV
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Or what? You'll release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with the
bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bjm1352
maggie h wrote:
<<Those ova were dead and gone within seconds of being taken out of cold
storage. If indeed Mulder still has them, their only value is as some
kind of souvenir.
As for any other possibilities -- if the writers _ever_ pull some kind
of trick where Scully amazingly gets her fertility back so she and
Mulder can have kiddies, I will hurl. I'm not saying this because I
don't like kids, I'm saying it exactly because I do know how meaningful
it can be to have a child, and how terrible infertility can be for
someone who wants children. To minimize it would be just cheap.
I'm amazed by the number of people who seem to regard Scully's
infertility as a temporary inconvenience. Surely part of the point of
TXF is that they don't live in a magical world where everything gets
sorted out in time for a happy ending (leaving aside the occasional
sweeps week ep ...). Sometimes things get sorted -- they had to put
Scully's cancer into remission because otherwise there would be no more
show -- but there are pains and losses that are very real and tragic and
can't be fixed up. Melissa is dead and she ain't coming back. Pendrell
is dead, likewise. Mulder's father is dead. And Scully is infertile. If
we take these things as less than real, then it's all just game-playing.
I know the writers have their cheap moments, but I just have to believe
that they take the show too seriously to arrange magical-sentimental
fixes for everything.
In any case, getting back to the original argument, Scully _clearly_
believes that her infertility is real and permanent (you heard the way
her voice shook when she mentioned people with children at the
beginning), and all the evidence suggests that Mulder believes this as
well. There was no indication to the contrary in Christmas Carol/Emily.
So certainly from their point of view it's real, and something Mulder
has necessarily taken into account if he has decided that this
relationship is the one he is "settled down" in for the long term.
maggie h>>
Good heavens, I didn't think my playing devil's advocate would create such a
stir. I also will hurl if Scully miraculously gets back her fertility, and I
certainly don't consider her situation a temporary inconvenience. Your
original argument is right on the mark.
My apologies if I offended anyone.
bjm1352
(please address e-mail to: bjm...@aol.com)
"Scully?" "Yeah?" "Marry me."
Bjm1352
<<What Scully told her mother in the kitchen sounded very absolute. Too
absolute just for a doctor telling her, "Well, you don't seem to be
ovulating." God knows what all they did to her. It may have been more
than just taking her ova. And as for the Emilys, I don't think any of
them are "children" in any recognizably human sense. That was surely the
point of the episode. Scully may have a lot of offspring out there, but
she doesn't have any "children".
I just don't think it would be right to give us any magical solutions.>>
I agree completely with your comment on Scully's conversation with her mother.
That was a heart-breaking moment. However, I don't completely agree with your
statement that Scully doesn't have any "children", inasmuch as SCULLY clearly
considers Emily to have been her daughter (although I concur that she does not
have children in the recognizable human sense; I'm just looking at things from
Scully's POV here).
But once again, I agree with you that there should be no magical solutions.
Maggie Helwig
> In <1djgni6.1wt...@ip203-145.cc.interlog.com> ksi...@interlog.com
> (Maggie Helwig) writes:
>
> >I just don't think it would be right to give us any magical solutions.
>
> 1013's solution to the cancer arc was more or less black magic and very
> few fans complained.
Well, as I said, I will cut them slack on this one _only_ because if
Scully had died there would be no more show. And they did have the good
grace to say "remission" instead of "cure".
> I think we just have to put up with the idea that the limitations of
> traditional medical science don't always apply to the X-Files universe.
> 1013 can't expect us to forget that Samuel Hartley's and ABH's exist in
> the world they've created.
Well, the first and primary reason I don't want it to happen is that it
would be sentimental. But I don't really expect it to happen anyway --
as I said, it hardly seems 1013's style -- so I'm not exactly laying
awake at night worrying about it.
But it really does bother me that people are, on the whole, so blase
about this. I mean, many people seemed to take the cancer arc very
seriously, and it isn't like anyone ever really believed Scully was
going to die. But if you ever mention her infertility, half a dozen
people will be on you in minutes, going, "Oh, yeah, but they've still
got her eggs, it'll be all right", etc etc. Even if 1013 were to decide
to restore her fertility someday, this is still something that is, right
here and now, a genuine tragedy for Scully. And possibly for Mulder also
(which is what my post that started all this was trying to address). And
it is so strange to me that so many people _will not_ see that.
maggie h
Deborah A Tinsley
But what of Jeremiah Smith the miraculous healer who brings the dead back
to life and repairs stroke damage? I don't know if Scully fertility will be
a focus of the TV show, but I think they've got the elements to undo the
damage?
And what of invitro (sp???) fertilization? If any of her eggs were found,
could they not be fertilized and reimplanted?
Did they take all of her eggs? I guess so. I'm a little fuzzy on the whole
egg situation.
Deborah
Konrad Douglas Frye
(Maggie Helwig) writes:
>Well, the first and primary reason I don't want it to happen is that it
>would be sentimental. But I don't really expect it to happen anyway --
>as I said, it hardly seems 1013's style -- so I'm not exactly laying
>awake at night worrying about it.
No, the chances of it coming up again are virtually zero. Kids and the
X-Files don't mix very well ;)
>But it really does bother me that people are, on the whole, so blase
>about this. I mean, many people seemed to take the cancer arc very
>seriously, and it isn't like anyone ever really believed Scully was
>going to die.
I seem to recall Chris saying that there wouldn't be a "miracle cure" for
Scully's cancer. Unfortunately, he backed himself into such a tight
corner that he had no choice but to resort to one.
I was a little dissapointed but at least his choice made some degree of
sense in terms of continuity.
>Even if 1013 were to decide to restore her fertility someday, this is
>still something that is, right here and now, a genuine tragedy for Scully.
Absolutely, and the 'Christmas Carol'/'Emily' two parter drove that point
home (some might say 1013 hit us over the head with sledge hammer <g>).
This happens to be a case where 1013 has given us a sliver of hope for
Scully (and the Moose too I suppose). Mulder *knows* that her frozen ova are
still out there and that in all likelyhood are still viable. That alters
the equation significantly.
Akakan
Maggie Helwig wrote
> Konrad Douglas Frye wrote:
> > 1013's solution to the cancer arc was more or less black magic and very
> > few fans complained.
>
> Well, as I said, I will cut them slack on this one _only_ because if
> Scully had died there would be no more show. And they did have the good
> grace to say "remission" instead of "cure".
Hm. This didn't bother me one bit. It was obvious, I thought, that Scully's
cancer was caused by the removal of her chip, and I kept waiting for
someone to think of putting it back. (Whatever happened to the original
chip, anyway? Do we know?)
> But it really does bother me that people are, on the whole, so blase
> about this. I mean, many people seemed to take the cancer arc very
> seriously, and it isn't like anyone ever really believed Scully was
> going to die. But if you ever mention her infertility, half a dozen
> people will be on you in minutes, going, "Oh, yeah, but they've still
> got her eggs, it'll be all right", etc etc. Even if 1013 were to decide
> to restore her fertility someday, this is still something that is, right
> here and now, a genuine tragedy for Scully.
It's a tragedy for her only because she doesn't know she's a fictional
character.
What I mean is, from her vantage point, she doesn't realize that 1013 pulls
impossible things from the hat all the time. We do, which simply makes it
hard to get worked up about this issue.
PennPart
<<1) things on the X-Files are frequently not what they seemed to be!
(Perhaps
the long-term effect of the implant in Scully's neck is to regenerate ova???
Who knows what CC is thinking!)>>
WOW what a great idea...in the XF universe anything is possible, I suppose.
<<2) someone else brought up this point elsewhere, but I don't recall who it
was... but what happened to that vial of ova that Mulder took in "Memento
Mori"?>>
WEll, that vial is dead...it was defrosted when Mulder took it with him to
Allentown. But there are still plenty of vials sitting there in the deep freeze
at the Lombard Research Center. The question is, can our heroes "liberate" them
without killing them??
Sue
You can't worry about what you can't control
anem...@my-dejanews.com
ksi...@interlog.com (Maggie Helwig) wrote:
<snip>
> people will be on you in minutes, going, "Oh, yeah, but they've still
> got her eggs, it'll be all right", etc etc. Even if 1013 were to decide
> to restore her fertility someday, this is still something that is, right
> here and now, a genuine tragedy for Scully. And possibly for Mulder also
> (which is what my post that started all this was trying to address). And
> it is so strange to me that so many people _will not_ see that.
During the commercial after Mulder discovered the ova in Memento Mori, my
friend turned to me and said "Oh my God. Scully is barren. For some reason
that seems worse than the cancer." And I agreed - possibly because we'd seen
the cancer coming at the very least since the end of Leonard Betts, and the
infertility just hit us, completely out of the blue - or because we knew the
cancer would eventually have to be cured so that Scully could stay on the
show. Whatever it was, the lack of ova felt like a kick in the stomach to
me. The knockout blow of the season.
I get that same feeling in my gut every time it's brought up on the show.
Because I know how much I want children some day, and to even imagine how I
would feel if I found out I couldn't hurts. A lot. I am quite sure that the
reality would be immeasurably worse.
I never even considered that they'd somehow restore Scully's fertility, but I
agree, it would cheapen the tragedy immensely. Real people have to deal with
these things without magical solutions, and Mulder and Scully, for all their
wacky science and little grey men, have always struck me as being more *real*
than almost anyone else I have seen on TV.
I'd always assumed that if Mulder and Scully settled down and wanted kids,
they'd adopt. I don't think either of them would have a problem with this -
they have both been seen to form genuine bonds with children who are not
related to them. On the other hand, I suppose they'd have to make major
lifestyle changes to be even considered by an adoption agency (witness
Scully's troubles in "Emily"). But if they were going to have kids they'd
have to do that anyways...
Anemone
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Alex Regh
>>"What? Wash dishes? Clean the office? *Snort*"
>>Mulder housekeeping explained.
>>"Cleaning is Mom's job and
>>if she's not doing it, neither am I."
>
>.... Single people can get eccentric (believe me, I am
>one). He keeps his areas the way he likes them. ... Just ask
>my roomate, who can't figure out how I could leave an empty envelope
>on the coffee table for three months and when she finally asks about
>it can say, "oh, did I leave that there?"
And I thought I was the only one who does things like that.....
Alex
--
If you don't go over the top,
you can't see what's on the other side.
--- Jim Steinman ---
Visit my fanfic-homepage at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/2941/
Alex Regh
>"You'll take care of me won't you Scully?"
>Mulder/Scully relationship explained.
>Scully is a substitute mother figure.
>(Perhaps the mom he never had?)
>Scully keeps him in line and punishes his misdeeds.
>Why, she'll even blow on the alcohol to make it
>hurt less like any good mom would.
Yeah, and people wonder why I just don't buy M/S stories.
AFAIK, most women want to have children, but they don't necessarily
marry one...
Magpie
>During the commercial after Mulder discovered the ova in Memento Mori, my
>friend turned to me and said "Oh my God. Scully is barren. For some reason
>that seems worse than the cancer." And I agreed - possibly because we'd seen
>the cancer coming at the very least since the end of Leonard Betts, and the
>infertility just hit us, completely out of the blue - or because we knew the
>cancer would eventually have to be cured so that Scully could stay on the
>show. Whatever it was, the lack of ova felt like a kick in the stomach to
>me. The knockout blow of the season.
>
>I get that same feeling in my gut every time it's brought up on the show.
>Because I know how much I want children some day, and to even imagine how I
>would feel if I found out I couldn't hurts. A lot. I am quite sure that the
>reality would be immeasurably worse.
I agree. For me it's not even just the fact that she can't have
children, which is devestating in itself. It's that someone else
has stolen her children. The idea of meeting your child that was
taken from you _by force_ and having that child consider you a
stranger. That must be the lonliest, most awful feeling in the
world.
That's another reason that I don't think this is something that
could have been visited upon Mulder. I'm not saying that a man
wouldn't feel just as betrayed by having this happen, but it is, I
think, something they are more 'prepared' for on some level. Only
because they always live with the possibility that they could
father a child and not know it.
The important thing, as has been said, is that as far as Scully is
concerned, she can not have children. She had hope with her cancer.
-m
Amblin
Akakan wrote in message <01be1f37$ec14c8c0$dc8f0fce@default>...
> (Whatever happened to the original
>chip, anyway? Do we know?)
In 731, Pendrell indicates that the tests he did on it "effectively
destroyed it"
because it was so delicate.
--Amblin
xxxxx remove "sp" from my username to reply by e-mail xxxxx
Akakan
Amblin <spam...@san.rr.com> wrote in article
<FIV92.17578$q15.4...@news.san.rr.com>...
>
> Akakan wrote in message <01be1f37$ec14c8c0$dc8f0fce@default>...
>
> > (Whatever happened to the original
> >chip, anyway? Do we know?)
>
> In 731, Pendrell indicates that the tests he did on it "effectively
> destroyed it"
> because it was so delicate.
>
> --Amblin
That's right! Thanks. Having no original chip to replant certainly makes
the continuity work better.
GeoRed
In article <747t9i$ouu$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>, umfr...@cc.UManitoba.CA
(Konrad Douglas Frye) writes:
>This happens to be a case where 1013 has given us a sliver of hope for
>Scully (and the Moose too I suppose). Mulder *knows* that her frozen ova are
>still out there and that in all likelyhood are still viable. That alters
>the equation significantly.
Does he really though? I mean, there are probably many of that type of
facility. Wouldn't it be more likely that the one with Scully's ova was
completely destroyed? Ova and all?
Konrad Douglas Frye
writes:
>>This happens to be a case where 1013 has given us a sliver of hope for
>>Scully (and the Moose too I suppose). Mulder *knows* that her frozen ova are
>>still out there and that in all likelyhood are still viable. That alters
>>the equation significantly.
>Does he really though? I mean, there are probably many of that type of
>facility. Wouldn't it be more likely that the one with Scully's ova was
>completely destroyed? Ova and all?
Why bother destroying the facility? It would make a lot more sense and draw
far less attention if the Consortium just relocated like they did in 'The
Erlenmeyer Flask'. The Crawfords bugged out before the CSM's goon arrived
and given their distain for the project I'd assume they'd take a lot of
the frozen ova with them.
Then there's the whole 'Emily' thing. It's quite possible that many of
the Consortium's alternate facilities are home to Scully's ova. Why
bother to transport embryos across the country? It seems kind of silly
for the Consortium to keep all their eggs in one basket. I suspect that
all of their hybrid producing facilities have a sample of Scully's ova.
Loligo Opalescens
> It seems kind of silly
>for the Consortium to keep all their eggs in one basket. I suspect that
>all of their hybrid producing facilities have a sample of Scully's ova.
You win -- I groaned. ;-)
L.O.
Konrad Douglas Frye
(Loligo Opalescens) writes:
It was only a matter of time until *somebody* wrote it ;)
LuluBean12
freezer room that Mulder was shown by the red-headed clones. He did not take
all of them with him. And some must still have been available to produce Emily
and others like them.
Lulu
><HTML>Subject: Re: Is Mulder an overgrown child?<BR>
>From: "Deborah A Tinsley" <TINS...@prodigy.net><BR>
>Date: 12/4/98 10:48 AM Eastern Standard Time<BR>
>Message-id: <01be1f44$a4331180$249a9cd1@oemcomputer><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>But what of Jeremiah Smith the miraculous healer who brings the dead back<BR>
>to life and repairs stroke damage? I don't know if Scully fertility will
>be<BR>
>a focus of the TV show, but I think they've got the elements to undo the<BR>
>damage?<BR>
><BR>
>And what of invitro (sp???) fertilization? If any of her eggs were found,<BR>
>could they not be fertilized and reimplanted?<BR>
><BR>
>Did they take all of her eggs? I guess so. I'm a little fuzzy on the
>whole<BR>
>egg situation.<BR>
><BR>
>Deborah<BR>
><BR>
></HT
Laura Burchard
GeoRed <geo...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <747t9i$ouu$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>, umfr...@cc.UManitoba.CA
>>This happens to be a case where 1013 has given us a sliver of hope for
>>Scully (and the Moose too I suppose). Mulder *knows* that her frozen ova are
>>still out there and that in all likelyhood are still viable. That alters
>>the equation significantly.
>Does he really though? I mean, there are probably many of that type of
>facility. Wouldn't it be more likely that the one with Scully's ova was
>completely destroyed? Ova and all?
And would you really *want* to use ova that had been in the Consortium's
possession? Not knowing how they might have been altered?
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Konrad Douglas Frye
>And would you really *want* to use ova that had been in the Consortium's
>possession? Not knowing how they might have been altered?
That's an interesting question and might be fodder for a good fanfic
story.
GeoRed
In article <74nja8$d9b$1...@saltmine.radix.net>, l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard)
writes:
>>Does he really though? I mean, there are probably many of that type of
>>facility. Wouldn't it be more likely that the one with Scully's ova was
>>completely destroyed? Ova and all?
>
>And would you really *want* to use ova that had been in the Consortium's
>possession? Not knowing how they might have been altered?
EEeewwwww..........I don't think I needed that visualization. <g>
Laura Shapiro
>deals with her lack of a sex life? (Perhaps her apartment is filled
>with erotic needlepoint pillows).
Just gotta say that I *love* this thought! I've always pictured Scully as
having a very active, very *private* sexual side, but it'd be nice if 1013
let us see her reading a book by Susie Bright occasionally.
~ Laura
--"Repeat to yourself 'It's just a show
I should really just relax...'"
Joel Hodgson
Laura Shapiro
was arrested at age 12 (he stopped growing up the day Samantha was taken),
and I know I'm not the first person to proffer that theory, but I've rarely
seen it spelled out so charmingly.
I particularly liked the point that Mulder and Scully can't "hop into the
sack" until Mulder grows up emotionally. I agree 100%.
Laura Shapiro
Unbound I wrote in message <19981201114705...@ng101.aol.com>...
>><<Mulder has a serious need for a MAJOR spanking.>>
>>
>>I'd be happy to volunteer :-)
>>
>>Sue
>>
>>
> I think you'll have to get in line behind one Dana Scully, Sue. After
all, I
>think it's fair to say she owes him one know <g>
<shameless plug>
Try my story "What He Deserved" (on Gossamer) to read about what that
spanking might be like.
</shameless plug>
Issab1
>about this. I mean, many people seemed to take the cancer arc very
>seriously, and it isn't like anyone ever really believed Scully was
>going to die. But if you ever mention her infertility, half a dozen
>got her eggs, it'll be all right", etc
>etc. Even if 1013 were to decide
>to restore her fertility someday, this is still something that is, right
>here and now, a genuine tragedy for Scully. And possibly for Mulder also
I think the problem is they've just done so many tragedies to poor Scully that
it's hard for yet another one to resonate emotionally with us.
Mari B.
Sculliwag
In article <36681...@news1.ibm.net>, Magpie wrote:
>I agree. For me it's not even just the fact that she can't have
>children, which is devestating in itself. It's that someone else
>has stolen her children. The idea of meeting your child that was
>taken from you _by force_ and having that child consider you a
>stranger. That must be the lonliest, most awful feeling in the
>world.
I'm glad you mentioned that, b/c until I read your post, this thread was about
to make me scream. Not every woman wants children!! And a woman who doesn't
want children is NO LESS A WOMAN for it. Infertility is NOT a tragedy to every
woman. However, medical rape and having, in effect, your children "stolen"...
now that I'll buy as a more universal tragedy.
As I mentioned in another thread, even a woman who doesn't want children might
experience a twinge of regret at finding out she can't have them, but that
doesn't make it a tragic event in her life, necessarily. In other words, it
isn't *inherently* a tragedy; it's only so if the woman really wanted children
to begin with, and we never saw much indication that Scully did.
And the next time someone writes a line like, "if Mulder and Scully settled
down and wanted kids," would you please preface it with WARNING: nightmare
vision ahead! <g>
(Note: this doesn't mean I think there's anything inherently wrong with
settling down... it would just bore me silly...)
X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X
Send private mail to: Sculliwag at pobox.com
"You ever flown a flying saucer? Afterwords, sex
seems trite."
Magpie
>
>
>In article <36681...@news1.ibm.net>, Magpie wrote:
>
>>I agree. For me it's not even just the fact that she can't have
>>children, which is devestating in itself. It's that someone else
>>has stolen her children. The idea of meeting your child that was
>>taken from you _by force_ and having that child consider you a
>>stranger. That must be the lonliest, most awful feeling in the
>>world.
>
>I'm glad you mentioned that, b/c until I read your post, this thread was about
>to make me scream. Not every woman wants children!! And a woman who doesn't
>want children is NO LESS A WOMAN for it. Infertility is NOT a tragedy to every
>woman. However, medical rape and having, in effect, your children "stolen"...
>now that I'll buy as a more universal tragedy.
>
>As I mentioned in another thread, even a woman who doesn't want children might
>experience a twinge of regret at finding out she can't have them, but that
>doesn't make it a tragic event in her life, necessarily. In other words, it
>isn't *inherently* a tragedy; it's only so if the woman really wanted children
>to begin with, and we never saw much indication that Scully did.
There's a lot of women who might not have made a specific decision not
to have kids but it just doesn't happen for them and that's okay. Maybe
they might think once in a while what it would have been like, or even
be a little sad that this was something they wanted and didn't get, but
it's not a life-ending experience. Scully might very well have not had
children if this had never happened, but the violation was a totally
different story.
Actually, I would
believe that Mulder has accepted that he would never have children
when he devoted himself to this quest. He probably assumed he would
be killed in the process. Scully, OTOH, got into this quest more
slowly--it was just her job at first. I think when it came down to
it she probably would have made the same decision as Mulder, that her
quest came first so she would not have a family. (I just can't
imagine Scully retiring to let Mulder chase the aliens while she
raised a child.) I think she believes this is what she was meant
for and where she does the most good. It's just too bad she has
to deal with people like her twitty sister-in-law.
-m
Deborah A Tinsley
Magpie <bel...@ibm.net> wrote in article <36801...@news1.ibm.net>...
I only have one quibble-- but then don't I always <g>.
> Actually, I would
> believe that Mulder has accepted that he would never have children
> when he devoted himself to this quest. He probably assumed he would
> be killed in the process. snip>
> -m
>
I never get the feeling that Mulder ever thinks it will kill him or that he
will ultimately fail. In season 5 when he was so discouraged instead of
feeling like a failure he thought he'd been wrong. I get the feeling he
thinks he'll always come out of it somehow, maybe that's part of his
arrogance??? I just don't think he'd take all those outrageous risks if he
was thinking about death. Maybe that it. Maybe he just doesn't think about
dying.
Deborah
gwaihir
>
>Magpie <bel...@ibm.net> wrote in article <36801...@news1.ibm.net>...
>
>I only have one quibble-- but then don't I always <g>.
>> Actually, I would
>> believe that Mulder has accepted that he would never have children
>> when he devoted himself to this quest. He probably assumed he would
>> be killed in the process. snip>
>
>
>will ultimately fail. In season 5 when he was so discouraged instead of
>feeling like a failure he thought he'd been wrong. I get the feeling he
>thinks he'll always come out of it somehow, maybe that's part of his
>arrogance??? I just don't think he'd take all those outrageous risks if he
>was thinking about death. Maybe that it. Maybe he just doesn't think about
>dying.
I think he justs accepts death as the price he may have to pay to play
the game. He doesn't think about it because it would detract from what
he needs to do. Maybe he is one of these people able to do for the long
term what most of us manage only briefly in an adrenaline high - accept
that death is a very possible outcome and then just forget about it and
get on with the job.
Joyce
...I will quit watching the X-Files when they
pry the remote out of my cold, dead hand.
Deborah A Tinsley
--
Deborah
"Art is a wicked thing. It is what we are."
Georgia O'Keefe
gwaihir <gwa...@dejanews.com> wrote in article
<75p8f4$7...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> In article <01be2dfc$db420ca0$26ba9cd1@oemcomputer>, "Deborah says...
> >I never get the feeling that Mulder ever thinks it will kill him or that
he
> >will ultimately fail.
snip
>
> I think he justs accepts death as the price he may have to pay to play
> the game. He doesn't think about it because it would detract from what
> he needs to do. Maybe he is one of these people able to do for the long
> term what most of us manage only briefly in an adrenaline high - accept
> that death is a very possible outcome and then just forget about it and
> get on with the job.
>
> Joyce
That makes sense. My Dad told me when he was in storming the beaches at
Saipan and Tinian during WWII, he knew he wouldn't be killed. He knew it
and he thinks that's what kept him alive.
I think I just assumed that was true of Mulder, but your take is probably
closer to the character.
--
Deborah
"Art is a wicked thing. It is what we are."
Georgia O'Keefe
gwaihir
>gwaihir <gwa...@dejanews.com> wrote in article
>> I think he justs accepts death as the price he may have to pay to play
>> the game. He doesn't think about it because it would detract from what
>> he needs to do. Maybe he is one of these people able to do for the long
>> term what most of us manage only briefly in an adrenaline high - accept
>> that death is a very possible outcome and then just forget about it and
>> get on with the job.
>
>That makes sense. My Dad told me when he was in storming the beaches at
>Saipan and Tinian during WWII, he knew he wouldn't be killed. He knew it
>and he thinks that's what kept him alive.
>
>I think I just assumed that was true of Mulder, but your take is probably
>closer to the character.
Either way would work. I just don't see Mulder as being that much of
an optimist. <g>