Possible New Home For XF2?
Unbound I
Fox might be offloading some of their older properties to some of the distribs.
One company called Arclight and another Gecchi are apparenlty in talks to take
both "X Files" and "Millenium" away. The studio don't plan to follow through on
their promises for films of both but have given the go ahead to another studio
to do so. For a nice sum I'm sure."
Unbound I
Check out my book about The X-Files at
http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html
ColemansLoveChild
So, Fox isn't really getting rid of X-Files or Millennium but probably
offering them to ArcLight to develop -- my guess is that ArcLight
would assign this to their DarcLight (note the "D") division, which
handles sci-fi/fantasy/horror films. If ArcLight manages to produce
anything, then Fox would distribute the final movie. Essentially,
Chris Carter and his 1013 Productions have been replaced by ArcLight,
since Fox wants nothing more to do with him. Now, considering how
"loose" and "fluid" dealmaking is in Hollywood, I highly doubt
ArcLight has an exclusive to X-Files or Millennium. I bet they've
simply been offered a chance pitch something with regard to these two
properties to Fox. That's all. If Morgan & Wong wanted to take the
X-Files movie mantle, their production company could probably offer a
serious pitch to Fox as well. It all boils down to this: 1) Who can
come up with the best story idea for another X-Files feature, and one
that could be done on a modest budget. And 2) Who can convince
Duchovny to sign on the dotted line. M&W would probably have the best
shot at convincing Duchovny to go with it. The question is: would M&W
ever be interested in reviving The X-Files? I think their production
company, and their better relationship with Duchovny (compared to
Chris Carter's), is the best chance for bringing back The X-Files to
the big screen.
---------------------
Morgan and Wong in place of Carter? That would certainly make me
happy. At least in theory. I would assume that would mean no Mytharc
bullshit and never having to look at the crappy replacement characters
again. Yay.
Unbound I
board or something else?
The one thing I've had trouble understanding since this came out is why Fox
would sell off TXF completely. That didn't make sense to me - even if you take
into consideration that TXF may have nothing left to offer in their eyes
(especially with all the season dvds out now). I thought selling off the whole
enchilada would've been a stunning move given how much money TXF generated for
Fox.
So this sounds much more plausible. Fox retains rights to TXF, but someone
else is in charge of production and putting together a movie. As far as the
Morgan and Wong speculation, is that just coming out of thin air or is their
something behind that because they have shown zero interest in TXF for quite
some time now. Of course, getting a chance to make *their* movie and having
sole creative input would, I'm guessing, be a nice turnaround if their working
experience with Carter was as bad as many insist it was. Personally, I don't
think Morgan and Wong would need to be involved for David to be interested. I
think he has interest in another film and always has, but he wants to make sure
it's done right.
David could also be a player here if he wanted. If Arclight went to him and
gave him creative control, he certainly is putting himself into a position to
be more than an actor in the Hollywood movie-making game. And if "House of D"
does well critically, his resume suddenly looks a whole lot different to the
folks who make the key decisions.
This is all very interesting stuff. What it tells me, assuming these reports
are valid, is somebody out there (no pun intended) believes a second XF film
remains a viable enterprise. I've thought that was the case as well though I've
had my doubts lately that it would ever happen- but it's been clear the folks
at Fox don't want to commit much in the way of resources to such a project.
Michele Jackson
"ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b5910f8.04030...@posting.google.com...
. If Morgan & Wong wanted to take the
> X-Files movie mantle, their production company could probably offer a
> serious pitch to Fox as well.
But I don't really trust Morgan and Wong with the MSR. After the last
seasons, I believe that's in need of serious attention. I want humor, of
course, but not satire at this juncture. Well, satire is ok, but I don't
need spoofing of the MSR and I'm afraid that Morgan and Wong wouldn't give
the relationship the treatment it needs given coming back from William, the
separation, Mulder's "death," etc. I'm not saying that I want the next
movie to deal with any of those issues (actually, I would like to see
something happen on the William front, though). I'm just saying that even
if we have a great MOTW, I'd like to see what they've been through as
subtext in all of Mulder and Scully's movie dealings with one another.
I really don't think M & W would give us that great scene in FTF where one
wants to go left, the other wants to go right and Mulder drives straight as
a compromise. They'd give us "sure, fine, whatever," instead, which is fine
in its place, when you havea whole season of shows, but not ok when this
next movie may be the last XF we ever get. Michele
stormlantern
> Interesting post on TalkBack:
Who can convince
> Duchovny to sign on the dotted line<
Uh...I seriously doubt he'd need much convincing in any case. ;)
Unbound I
There would be much more at stake if he did - especially if the film tanked.
But everything I've heard for quite some time indicates he's always been very
interested in doing another film -- moreso than probably a lot of people may
realize. I think the larger question is the deal he would cut to return and
specifically the type of creative input he'll be allowed to have and also
possibly seeking a producer's credit (which would probably mean a lower salary
up front but points and possibly a cut of the backend profit).
ColemansLoveChild
Basically a message board. It's at AICN, at the bottom of whatever
rumor or news Harry comes up with.
> The one thing I've had trouble understanding since this came out is why Fox
> would sell off TXF completely. That didn't make sense to me - even if you take
> into consideration that TXF may have nothing left to offer in their eyes
> (especially with all the season dvds out now). I thought selling off the whole
> enchilada would've been a stunning move given how much money TXF generated for
> Fox.
> So this sounds much more plausible. Fox retains rights to TXF, but someone
> else is in charge of production and putting together a movie. As far as the
> Morgan and Wong speculation, is that just coming out of thin air or is their
> something behind that because they have shown zero interest in TXF for quite
> some time now.
I think it was just speculation on the poster's part. Though with
Carter out of the way it's quite plausible.
>Of course, getting a chance to make *their* movie and having
> sole creative input would, I'm guessing, be a nice turnaround if their working
> experience with Carter was as bad as many insist it was. Personally, I don't
> think Morgan and Wong would need to be involved for David to be interested. I
> think he has interest in another film and always has, but he wants to make sure
> it's done right.
> David could also be a player here if he wanted. If Arclight went to him and
> gave him creative control, he certainly is putting himself into a position to
> be more than an actor in the Hollywood movie-making game. And if "House of D"
> does well critically, his resume suddenly looks a whole lot different to the
> folks who make the key decisions.
Duchovny would be fine as well. He, in many ways, was the only one to
come up with any decent ideas whatsoever over the last couple seasons
from what I know. Just as long as Carter is off it, as he's shown
conclusively that he's now incompetent.
> This is all very interesting stuff. What it tells me, assuming these reports
> are valid, is somebody out there (no pun intended) believes a second XF film
> remains a viable enterprise. I've thought that was the case as well though I've
> had my doubts lately that it would ever happen- but it's been clear the folks
> at Fox don't want to commit much in the way of resources to such a project.
What's also interesting is, assuming Cartr's gone, what the hell can
be done with the storyline seeing as how he was so desperate he made
it a mess to insure his future involvement. Mytharc became so stupid I
just wish it could be ignored, but that's not too likely if canon is
followed from the last scene of the show.
ColemansLoveChild
> "ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1b5910f8.04030...@posting.google.com...
> . If Morgan & Wong wanted to take the
> > X-Files movie mantle, their production company could probably offer a
> > serious pitch to Fox as well.
>
> But I don't really trust Morgan and Wong with the MSR.
And you trust Carter?
>After the last
> seasons, I believe that's in need of serious attention.
Yeah, thanks to the mess Carter made here as well.
>I want humor, of
> course, but not satire at this juncture. Well, satire is ok, but I don't
> need spoofing of the MSR and I'm afraid that Morgan and Wong wouldn't give
> the relationship the treatment it needs given coming back from William, the
> separation, Mulder's "death," etc.
Well Chris was the one that created almost all these issues and
couldn't -- or more accurately wouldn't -- do anything much of
substance the last couple years with the relationship because he was
too busy pulling people's collective chain over issues such as the
pregnancy and so forth. Now somebody else is supposed to clean up a
mess he created over a coouple seasons' worth of tv episodes in a two
hour (maybe a bit more) movie?
Morgan and Wong can do more than satire with the relationship anyway.
Even an episode like Home has some nice relationship moments in it
that I wouldn't necessarily classify as spoof material, and whether
you like it, hate it or are somewhere inbetween, Never Again is almost
purely a "serious" relationship episode that I think was very adult in
its handling of the two and their relationship -- more serious and
adult at looking at things than much of what Carter would later come
up with, particularly in his dreadful seasons of horror known as 8 & 9
where, specifically in 8, he crafted a storyline for the season that
was purely based off the relationship in many ways then did almost
everything he could to ignore it so he could focus on his new leading
man that nobody cared about and also so he could treat Scully's
pregnancy as a cheap gimmick instead of a serious issue within the
show's arc (we neeeded that telegraphed and obvious last scene of
Existence so badly you know, instead of just admitting months earlier
what most everybody else had already realized abnout the parentage of
the fucking kid in her belly).
>I'm not saying that I want the next
> movie to deal with any of those issues (actually, I would like to see
> something happen on the William front, though). I'm just saying that even
> if we have a great MOTW, I'd like to see what they've been through as
> subtext in all of Mulder and Scully's movie dealings with one another.
I owuld have liked to have seen much of this while the show was still
on the air. Like, oh, in fucking season 8, and even in season 9, but
evidently that was impossible with that dick Carter doing everything
he could to destroy the show and what made it work.
Frankly, as long as Carter ain't God over a production and Anderson
and Duchovny have a bit of say over their characters and what happens
between them, something tells me you'll get much more of what you want
than if Carter was involved. In fact, maybe they should just hand the
thing over to David as Unbound suggested -- just as long as he doesn't
give us something like HAD.
>
> I really don't think M & W would give us that great scene in FTF where one
> wants to go left, the other wants to go right and Mulder drives straight as
> a compromise. They'd give us "sure, fine, whatever," instead, which is fine
> in its place, when you havea whole season of shows, but not ok when this
> next movie may be the last XF we ever get. Michele
There were many great relationship moments in M&W episodes. Why do you
believe Carter -- he that screwed up almost everything from the
serialized plot to the relationship over the course of seasons 8 & 9
-- more capable after the mess he made on all fronts over the last few
years?
Maybe you don't, I don't know, but I believe that if you want these
things handled in a meaningful manner you better hope Carter has
nothing to do with the next movie, or at least has some demands placed
on him in regards to what you mentioned and isn't allowed to make
further moronic decisions as he did so well in the past. He needs to
go. Or be ignored. Whichever.
Morgan and Wong (or Duchovny)>>>Carter. I think there'd be a far
better chance for a series of movies if they were in charge instead of
surfer boy.
Unbound I
>
>unbo...@aol.com (Unbound I) wrote in message
>news:<20040307114640...@mb-m12.aol.com>...
>> >From: ChrisCar...@yahoo.com (ColemansLoveChild)
>> >
>> >happy. At least in theory. I would assume that would mean no Mytharc
>> >bullshit and never having to look at the crappy replacement characters
>> >again. Yay.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> First off, what is TalkBack? I can't find a link anywhere. Is it a
>message
>> board or something else?
>
>Basically a message board. It's at AICN, at the bottom of whatever
>rumor or news Harry comes up with.
>
>
>
should've looked there first. :)
>
>
>
>> The one thing I've had trouble understanding since this came out is why
>Fox
>> would sell off TXF completely. That didn't make sense to me - even if you
>take
>> into consideration that TXF may have nothing left to offer in their eyes
>> (especially with all the season dvds out now). I thought selling off the
>whole
>> enchilada would've been a stunning move given how much money TXF generated
>for
>> Fox.
>> So this sounds much more plausible. Fox retains rights to TXF, but
>someone
>> else is in charge of production and putting together a movie. As far as the
>> Morgan and Wong speculation, is that just coming out of thin air or is
>their
>> something behind that because they have shown zero interest in TXF for
>quite
>> some time now.
>
>I think it was just speculation on the poster's part. Though with
>Carter out of the way it's quite plausible.
>
>
>
be surprised if they did although I do think the chance to make *their* version
of TXF as opposed to Carter's would be creatively appealing. At least it would
be for me if I was in their shoes.
>
>
>
>>Of course, getting a chance to make *their* movie and having
>> sole creative input would, I'm guessing, be a nice turnaround if their
>working
>> experience with Carter was as bad as many insist it was. Personally, I
>don't
>> think Morgan and Wong would need to be involved for David to be interested.
>I
>> think he has interest in another film and always has, but he wants to make
>sure
>> it's done right.
>> David could also be a player here if he wanted. If Arclight went to him
>and
>> gave him creative control, he certainly is putting himself into a position
>to
>> be more than an actor in the Hollywood movie-making game. And if "House of
>D"
>> does well critically, his resume suddenly looks a whole lot different to
>the
>> folks who make the key decisions.
>
>Duchovny would be fine as well. He, in many ways, was the only one to
>come up with any decent ideas whatsoever over the last couple seasons
>from what I know. Just as long as Carter is off it, as he's shown
>conclusively that he's now incompetent.
>
>
>
the Fox lot lately. He also has ties to Arclight since Ted Gross (the head of
Arclight) was at Dimension when Carter was working on a deal with that company.
I'm thinking Carter's trying to get involved in this deal in some way. I
certainly could be wrong (and again the AICN report is speculation at this time
anyway), but that's my guess.
>
>
>
>> This is all very interesting stuff. What it tells me, assuming these
>reports
>> are valid, is somebody out there (no pun intended) believes a second XF
>film
>> remains a viable enterprise. I've thought that was the case as well though
>I've
>> had my doubts lately that it would ever happen- but it's been clear the
>folks
>> at Fox don't want to commit much in the way of resources to such a project.
>
>What's also interesting is, assuming Cartr's gone, what the hell can
>be done with the storyline seeing as how he was so desperate he made
>it a mess to insure his future involvement. Mytharc became so stupid I
>just wish it could be ignored, but that's not too likely if canon is
>followed from the last scene of the show.
>
>
>
pitch a screenplay to Fox. <g> But I don't think it's an impossible task. It
juts takes people with creativity to get the job done.
Michele Jackson
"ColemansLoveChild"
> There were many great relationship moments in M&W episodes. Why do you
> believe Carter -- he that screwed up almost everything from the
> serialized plot to the relationship over the course of seasons 8 & 9
> -- more capable after the mess he made on all fronts over the last few
> years?
>
I'm looking for a little more than a few great relationship "moments." I'm
looking for some strong MSR and, while Morgan and Wong may be capable of
presenting that, that's never been their focal point.
I am not prepared to forget everything that Carter did well, just because of
the way the last two years played out. The last 2 years do not erase the
6-7 that went before. Let's not be amnesiac. Even at the end, for instance
the close of "All Things" that we learned he was responsible for, proved CC
could still move me. And I'll never forget how Milagro, way in the 5th
Season, rocked me, making me feel the same intrigue and tension between
Mulder and Scully that I'd first experienced years earlier in "Ice." I know
Milagro was someone else's story, but the script was CC's.
I don't think CC lost his touch completely. I think he misplaced it. The
things that happened later in the show's run were caused by greed,
bitterness and desperation. He was mad at DD for leaving, for the lawsuit
before that. Heck maybe even for the move from Vancouver. He saw the
franchise coming to an end, Harsh Realm and Millenium failed. The Lone
Gunmen didn't have a chance. Time was running out and he was scrambling for
a new "hook," trying to find something that would keep him in the game,
letting his pocketbook take over his brain.
I'd like to hope that he's learned a little since then and that the
pressures that constrained him and resentments he was fighting back then
have lightened by now. Maybe he's gained some humility after all the bad
press and his recent idleness.
Furthermore, if he doesn't have sense, maybe his collaborators will. I
would hope for someone like Vince (and not Frank) to be at his side for
Movie 2.
Anyway, I haven't forgotten the bad, but I haven't forgotten the good
either. When Chris was good he was very good. When M & W were good, they
were quirky. They liked to emphasize a dark aspect of the MSR that I didn't
mind seeing explored within a season, but that I don't really want to see in
a 90 minute movie that may be the last thing we ever get.
I'll entertain other candidates, but if my choices are just CC and M & W,
I'll go with CC. If I was guaranteed 3 movies instead of (maybe) just one,
then I'd be all for letting Glen and James enjoy the reins for a film. But
the way things stand now, I haven't got that luxury. I have no x-file to
spare. Michele
ColemansLoveChild
> "ColemansLoveChild"
>
> > There were many great relationship moments in M&W episodes. Why do you
> > believe Carter -- he that screwed up almost everything from the
> > serialized plot to the relationship over the course of seasons 8 & 9
> > -- more capable after the mess he made on all fronts over the last few
> > years?
> >
>
> I'm looking for a little more than a few great relationship "moments."
Did you even get those in the last two seasons? Seems to me that even
a moment was hard to come by in season 8, even as the entire show was
then purely structured around issues that would naturally be devoted
to the relationship.
Also, I would argue that, my original wording aside, there were many
times just as much relationship work was done in M&W episodes as eps
by anyone else. Like I said, what about Never Again as an example?
>I'm
> looking for some strong MSR and, while Morgan and Wong may be capable of
> presenting that, that's never been their focal point.
I don't see how the relationship was ever less the focal point than
with Carter.
>
> I am not prepared to forget everything that Carter did well, just because of
> the way the last two years played out. The last 2 years do not erase the
> 6-7 that went before.
And a good portion of those earlier seasons were part of the record of
M&W as well.
>Let's not be amnesiac. Even at the end, for instance
> the close of "All Things" that we learned he was responsible for, proved CC
> could still move me.
I think All Things is evidence of Carter's never-ending chain pulling
on the relationship issue. While it's pretty obvious what the point of
the ep is and one can assume that the relationship between the two
changed with it finally, it still is never overtly stated primarily so
he would be left with wiggle room to go back to whatever teasing and
so forth was convenient -- which is a major part of why season 8 is
such a dismal failure.
In fact, he dragged the whole "will they/won't they" scenario out way
too long, as well as the "have they/haven't they" BS that later came
up. From the end of the fifth season through the movie the last bit of
UST I think was drained as the whole thing was taken to a basic point
of no return -- problem being, Carter then dragged the issue out for
another two-plus seasons simply going in circles on the issue because
if he went any further forward at all the game in this regard would be
over. To me that isn't respectful of the relationship, and I think
many or most would agree when they look at that crap known as season
8.
>And I'll never forget how Milagro, way in the 5th
> Season, rocked me, making me feel the same intrigue and tension between
> Mulder and Scully that I'd first experienced years earlier in "Ice." I know
> Milagro was someone else's story, but the script was CC's.
Just to to be pedantic, Milagro was sixth season. And was a great
episode. But that also doesn't change the fact that all the issues you
think need to be dealt with came with the last two seasons that Carter
gave us -- this is his mess, and proved, to me, conclusively that he
was not up to the task of cleaning it up but rather only capable of
making it worse. The stupidity of Scully in the last couple seasons,
Mulder leaving like a coward, the entire retarded baby as messiah
("the father must not be allowed to raise the son") storyline (is
calling it a storyline too generous?), on through to the nonsensical
adoption cop-out and bullshit fugitive ending to The Truth (so, if
Scully can run off with Mulder at the end of the last episode, why
couldn't she do it some six or seven months earlier and taken their
damned kid along? STUPID!) -- all of this was Carter's. How many
chances did he have to fix the problems he'd bring up only to ignore
those and create new ones? Enough -- if and when more X-Files movies
are made, no Carter.
By comparison to the above broad storyline issues, all Milagro is is
another relationship "moment" (and that's no insult to that episode)
as it has no overriding effect on the relationship through the
serialized storyline like the ongoing stupidity of seasons 8 & 9 so
clearly do.
>
> I don't think CC lost his touch completely. I think he misplaced it.
Semantically, what's the difference? Is he ever going to find it? And
why should he be given yet another chance to do so? He couldn't do it
when his career and show were on the line.
>The
> things that happened later in the show's run were caused by greed,
> bitterness and desperation.
Who's to say this wouldn't happen again? That seems to be Carter's one
constant now in regards to how he handles anything to do with The
X-files. Give it to somebody with some confidence and talent left.
>He was mad at DD for leaving, for the lawsuit
> before that.
Duchovny sure looks right to me -- the show should have been cancelled
two seasons earlier and moved in to movies, as he wanted all along.
>Heck maybe even for the move from Vancouver. He saw the
> franchise coming to an end, Harsh Realm and Millenium failed. The Lone
> Gunmen didn't have a chance. Time was running out and he was scrambling for
> a new "hook," trying to find something that would keep him in the game,
> letting his pocketbook take over his brain.
So, what's different now? He like he's in an even worse position than
then. By your standard, this is not conducive to a positive outcome
for future movies.
>
> I'd like to hope that he's learned a little since then and that the
> pressures that constrained him and resentments he was fighting back then
> have lightened by now. Maybe he's gained some humility after all the bad
> press and his recent idleness.
I doubt it. He was always blindly arrogant and full of shit. Even when
his only success was going down in flames. BECAUSE OF HIM.
>
> Furthermore, if he doesn't have sense, maybe his collaborators will. I
> would hope for someone like Vince (and not Frank) to be at his side for
> Movie 2.
I would hope that someone else entirely be in charge. Let Duchovny run
it if you can't trust M&W, but no more Carter. NO no no no no no!
>
> Anyway, I haven't forgotten the bad, but I haven't forgotten the good
> either. When Chris was good he was very good. When M & W were good, they
> were quirky.
So, only Carter was good? I think many would disagree with you. And
much of the charm of that show and what made it "good" was inherently
connected to its quirks -- yet another reason the last couple years
sucked so much, as almost all of that was taken out of the show.
>They liked to emphasize a dark aspect of the MSR that I didn't
> mind seeing explored within a season, but that I don't really want to see in
> a 90 minute movie that may be the last thing we ever get.
Dark aspect? In what context? And by comparison, wouldn't something
like Milagro -- which you trumpeted earlier -- fall into the same
category? Is that a bad episode now? Is it a bad example of the
relationship, putting it in a bad light? I don't think so. But I also
don't believe that of the majority of M&W material we got either on
the subject.
>
> I'll entertain other candidates, but if my choices are just CC and M & W,
> I'll go with CC. If I was guaranteed 3 movies instead of (maybe) just one,
> then I'd be all for letting Glen and James enjoy the reins for a film. But
> the way things stand now, I haven't got that luxury. I have no x-file to
> spare. Michele
You act as if Carter will give you what you want -- looking at seasons
8 & 9 what evidencxe is there of that? After all, all the issues you
think need to be dealt with were brought up and caused by Carter. And
when he had full seasons to deal with them, he did practically nothing
-- see MORONIC pregnancy storyline, or Mulder abduction, for wonderful
examples. Morgan and Wong's work was stellar on that show,
particularly in comparison to Carter's later dismal efforts. By that
standard, I think the choice is rather obvious. I have no idea why any
shipper would want more Carter garbage, frankly.
Michele Jackson
"ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b5910f8.04030...@posting.google.com...
Yes, I did get a few of those moments in the last two seasons, but even if I
hadn't I already told you that I'm not judging CC based only on the last two
seasons.
> Also, I would argue that, my original wording aside, there were many
> times just as much relationship work was done in M&W episodes as eps
During the first season and the first half of the second season, I think M &
W were responsible for some of the show's greatest and most enduring MSR
moments. I can still get chills watching the end of Little Green Men, "I
still have you," but their view of Mulder and Scully changed over time and
diverted from my own. I didn't like the direction.
> by anyone else. Like I said, what about Never Again as an example?
I don't think "Never Again" is a good example. Indeed, you disliked the
last 2 seasons so much and I think that particular episode, though
cinematically beautiful and dramatic, could have fit in perfectly with the
character problems inherent in the show's ending. Indeed, the contrast
between the MSR in "Never Again" and the one in Milagro says everything that
I prefer in Carter over M & W in a nutshell. To me Milagro was
illuminating, not dark. I've always believed that Milagro was NA done right
and that NA was something best forgotten.
You resented Scully's behavior in the last seasons, but I resented her
character regression in "Never Again." And I resented it most because while
CC may be guilty of botching things up through incompetence, I think M & W
had a clearer vision of where they were going and I didn't like what they
saw. Scully's problem with authority has been a constant, but the way she
chose to deal with it in "Never Again" is not consistent with the way she
usually deals with it to me and I didn't appreciate the personality
regression. It was the handling of the character trait, not the trait
itself, that I disputed. If they had wanted to do the movie in flashback
like "Unusual Suspects" and show us what Scully was like 10 years ago, that
would have been fine with me, but I didn't buy the Scully in NA as the
Scully I'd been watching since 1994.
Throughout the MSR, nothing occurred between Mulder and Scully that would
give her cause to think that the only way she could regain control of her
life was to run away. When she gives Mulder the hands off signal, he
usually responds pretty quickly. Thus, if she wanted control, all she had
to do was take it. If M & W wanted to get Scully with Ed, they could have
set up the whole premise for her being there with a lot more care than they
did. Because I found the plot was illogical at its base, the episode failed
for me, insulted me. I loved the ending. I liked the cinematic quality
stuff in Ed's
apartment, the way they were locked together like that and then the door
slamming shut spontaneously. I thought that was cool. In fact, on another
show, I'd probably say that NA was pretty
great, but in terms of the XF characters and relationships I'd come to know,
I thought it was a travesty. Wasn't there a mature way for her to end up
on a date with a man who seemed amiable enough on the surface, but turned
out to be dangerous? She could have done the very same things she did in
NA, but for much more valid reasons. She can be weak and fallible without
being just plain silly.
I don't fault NA because it gave us a less perfect Scully. I fault it
because it gave us less Scully, period. I felt I was watching a caricature.
Jodie Foster might as well have been doing HER voice.
As for Mulder, actually the inexpert way he tried to reach out to Scully was
quite good and I think I understood him extremely well in the episode. But
Scully . . .
I thought she handled the control problem much more believably (and
characteristically) in Milagro than in NA and while you didn't think that
episode had resolution, I certainly think it did. Heck, her putting her
hand on Mulder to save HIM rather than Padgett said an awful lot to me (and
to Padgett too). That was the resolution right there, not to mention her
ending up back in Mulder's apartment, on HIS side of the wall conducting a
stake out. Their quiet domestic ease together. His closing the door (while
she was still putting on her boots to follow him out) in what I think was a
protective measure, because he didn't want her to come. The way she awoke
from unconsciousness and was going to spring into his arms, but he stopped
her, as if he just wanted to confirm that she was alive before holding her.
I mean
nothing more needed to be said. I prefer the guy responsible for Milagro
over the guys responsible for NA.
> And a good portion of those earlier seasons were part of the record of
> M&W as well.
And I haven't forgotten M & W, but since they would not have approved of the
romantic turn the MSR took, I don't think they'd be interested in addressing
it. Carter might not be CAPABLE of addressing it, but at least the will
might be there. I don't know if it is for M & W.
>
> I think All Things is evidence of Carter's never-ending chain pulling
> on the relationship issue. While it's pretty obvious what the point of
> the ep is and one can assume that the relationship between the two
> changed with it finally, it still is never overtly stated primarily so
> he would be left with wiggle room to go back to whatever teasing and
> so forth was convenient -- which is a major part of why season 8 is
> such a dismal failure.
>
But what WAS stated in All Things was enough for me. If you were looking to
have confirmation that M & S had sex, I guess you'd be frustrated by Carter
leaving himself wiggle room, but I wasn't ever looking for that. I wanted
confirmation of other things -- that they choose each other, given other
options. I like to see the fundamental affection, need and voluntary
dependence between them.
> In fact, he dragged the whole "will they/won't they" scenario out way
> too long, as well as the "have they/haven't they" BS that later came
> up.
>
> I would hope that someone else entirely be in charge. Let Duchovny run
> it if you can't trust M&W, but no more Carter. NO no no no no no!
I have nothing against Duchovny being involved or Vince, like I said before.
I'm thinking even John Shiban.
> So, only Carter was good?
No, I never said that. M & W have been good before. But they've also hurt
me. Heavens, Darin's WOTC was delightful and funny, but I was still a
little bothered. Carter hasn't hurt me in the same way. YMMV, actually
it's obvious that your mileage DOES vary.
>I think many would disagree with you.
Well, that has nothing to do with anything. The fact that many disagreed
with me, never stopped me from wanting what I want.
> Dark aspect? In what context?
A type of antagonism or hostility between Mulder and Scully that I don't
mind visiting during the course of a season, but I have no interest in
exploring in a film that may be the last XF we ever get. I want friction
yes, especially when there's fear, hurt or insecurity at its core and you
gain a better understanding of each other through the conflict. I think
that's needed, but I don't want latent animosity to surface without real
cause or for humor's sake alone. Life is short. I just don't need that.
> You act as if Carter will give you what you want --
I don't act like that at all. And never said anything close to it. It's
not like I'm a Carter militant who thinks only HE can do it right. I think
it's a risk either way. I'd just rather take a gamble on him sooner than on
M & W and you would do the opposite. I don't think either bet is a
certainty.
Michele
Pattie
Okay. This time, you hold the torch. I'll just light it and stand
back and watch. My arms are so-o-o-o-o tired from holding it the last
time!
Pattie
ColemansLoveChild
> "ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1b5910f8.04030...@posting.google.com...
> > > Did you even get those in the last two seasons?
>
> Yes, I did get a few of those moments in the last two seasons,
Yeah, there were a few, but they were buried under a bunch of needless
garbage, including unsubtle attacks on that very relationship through
Doggett earlier in the season.
Problem with season eight in particular is that the focus inherently
should have been on the relationship in many ways yet it was ignored
as much as possible so Carter could continue with his teasing and also
promote his new character more heavily at the expense of decent
stories.
>but even if I
> hadn't I already told you that I'm not judging CC based only on the last two
> seasons.
>
And yet the basis of much of your argument for the need for his
involvement are his very destructive arcs through the last two
seasons. I find a contradiction there, frankly. You ignore that it was
specifically Carter that did A, B, and C with the relationship over
the last two seasons yet point out these elements independently of him
as a reason that he needs to be there on the next movie? I see a
dichotomy.
> > Also, I would argue that, my original wording aside, there were many
> > times just as much relationship work was done in M&W episodes as eps
>
> During the first season and the first half of the second season, I think M &
> W were responsible for some of the show's greatest and most enduring MSR
> moments. I can still get chills watching the end of Little Green Men, "I
> still have you," but their view of Mulder and Scully changed over time and
> diverted from my own. I didn't like the direction.
>
> > by anyone else. Like I said, what about Never Again as an example?
>
> I don't think "Never Again" is a good example. Indeed, you disliked the
> last 2 seasons so much and I think that particular episode, though
> cinematically beautiful and dramatic, could have fit in perfectly with the
> character problems inherent in the show's ending.
But your argument is that M&W's view of the MSR changed from what it
originally was -- why is that not also applicapable to Carter over the
last couple seasons? As even you admit, Never Again would fit in well
with the characterization of the last two seasons -- and you dislike
that characterization. Well Carter was the man responsible for a hell
of alot more than one ep those last two seasons.
>Indeed, the contrast
> between the MSR in "Never Again" and the one in Milagro says everything that
> I prefer in Carter over M & W in a nutshell. To me Milagro was
> illuminating, not dark. I've always believed that Milagro was NA done right
> and that NA was something best forgotten.
>
> You resented Scully's behavior in the last seasons, but I resented her
> character regression in "Never Again." And I resented it most because while
> CC may be guilty of botching things up through incompetence, I think M & W
> had a clearer vision of where they were going and I didn't like what they
> saw. Scully's problem with authority has been a constant, but the way she
> chose to deal with it in "Never Again" is not consistent with the way she
> usually deals with it to me and I didn't appreciate the personality
> regression. It was the handling of the character trait, not the trait
> itself, that I disputed. If they had wanted to do the movie in flashback
> like "Unusual Suspects" and show us what Scully was like 10 years ago, that
> would have been fine with me, but I didn't buy the Scully in NA as the
> Scully I'd been watching since 1994.
A flashback would not have made the point, as so much of it,
disfunctional or not, was about the changing nature of the
relationship -- not what Scully had previously been, if there was ever
a great difference at all -- of the two main characters. You can see
this in the way Scully's reactions to Mulder lead her into the date in
the first place and all that comes with it -- the underlying point
being that he doesn't notice her or appreciate her enough -- and by
the end the way Mulder reacts with a tellingly possessive comment that
he has to edit.
Like I said, it's not exactly a pretty view of the relationship but it
does speak to changing expectations within it I think when examined.
Neither character exactly acts professional in their reactions to one
another in this episode, which is a bit of a sea change from what came
before. It's very personal -- the sole reason Scully appears to even
go out on a date is because of Mulder, which is very illuminating. And
the way he acts at the end with such outrage and possessiveness shows
him to be more than just a concerned partner.
>
> Throughout the MSR, nothing occurred between Mulder and Scully that would
> give her cause to think that the only way she could regain control of her
> life was to run away. When she gives Mulder the hands off signal, he
> usually responds pretty quickly. Thus, if she wanted control, all she had
> to do was take it. If M & W wanted to get Scully with Ed, they could have
> set up the whole premise for her being there with a lot more care than they
> did. Because I found the plot was illogical at its base, the episode failed
> for me, insulted me. I loved the ending. I liked the cinematic quality
> stuff in Ed's
> apartment, the way they were locked together like that and then the door
> slamming shut spontaneously. I thought that was cool. In fact, on another
> show, I'd probably say that NA was pretty
> great, but in terms of the XF characters and relationships I'd come to know,
> I thought it was a travesty. Wasn't there a mature way for her to end up
> on a date with a man who seemed amiable enough on the surface, but turned
> out to be dangerous? She could have done the very same things she did in
> NA, but for much more valid reasons. She can be weak and fallible without
> being just plain silly.
It all depends as well where you consider this in the canon. If it
comes after Leonard Betts then it ends up working better -- at least
from your standpoint -- then if it comes before. I also think there's
precedent for Scully doing stupid and illogical things based off
emotion. This is an example of that, and the reasons point to
something more overtly personal brewing between her and Mulder. In
that context, the episode can definitely be seen as a development.
>
> I don't fault NA because it gave us a less perfect Scully. I fault it
> because it gave us less Scully, period. I felt I was watching a caricature.
> Jodie Foster might as well have been doing HER voice.
> As for Mulder, actually the inexpert way he tried to reach out to Scully was
> quite good and I think I understood him extremely well in the episode. But
> Scully . . .
I think the point by the end was just how personal that particular
relationship was becoming, and how it was quickly shifting into
something less and less professional overtly.
>
> I thought she handled the control problem much more believably (and
> characteristically) in Milagro than in NA and while you didn't think that
> episode had resolution, I certainly think it did.
Huh? I never said it was lacking resolution, so much as it is a single
episode that doesn't affect the broad canon like so much of the stuff
in season 8 and 9 does, while also making a point that is redundantly
played over and over again throughout season 6 and 7 about the
relationship. And I will repeat that it's a great episode on its own,
but it's point is a bit diluted in regards to Mulder and Scully
because it had been made before and would be made again (and again,
and again...).
In the end we get this central point of Scully or Mulder choosing each
other over all others throughout season 6 and 7. We see it in The
Ghosts Who Stole Christmas, in much of the storyline of the Mytharc
from from the end of season five to the beginning of season 7 with
Mulder choosing Scully over Fowley, in All Things and, again, in
Milagro. We also get it in various dialogue moments between the
characters or others in that time period. I'm probably forgetting some
more specific examples, but the thing is that that point was not a
unique one to the show -- more than anything it points to the
characters and their relationship going in circles in that period
because things had basically reached or were near their crescendo
here, as it was from the movie onwards.
> Heck, her putting her
> hand on Mulder to save HIM rather than Padgett said an awful lot to me (and
> to Padgett too). That was the resolution right there, not to mention her
> ending up back in Mulder's apartment, on HIS side of the wall conducting a
> stake out. Their quiet domestic ease together.
The fact that she ever was attracted to Padgett in the first place
says something about her, in much the same way Never Again does. That
in some ways she's more comfortable being intimate with a stranger
than she is with Mulder, precisely because of the lack of intimacy
psychologically between her and these other guys as opposed to Mulder.
Much like NA, this points to a screwed up character in some regards.
The difference between Never Again and Milagro is the resolution, as
you rightly point out. Never Again makes the feelings clearer up to
that point in the show but does not resolve them, while Milagro does
both the former and the latter. At least insofar as the characters
again choosing each other over an outsider to the relationship once
again.
>His closing the door (while
> she was still putting on her boots to follow him out) in what I think was a
> protective measure, because he didn't want her to come. The way she awoke
> from unconsciousness and was going to spring into his arms, but he stopped
> her, as if he just wanted to confirm that she was alive before holding her.
> I mean
> nothing more needed to be said. I prefer the guy responsible for Milagro
> over the guys responsible for NA.
>
> > And a good portion of those earlier seasons were part of the record of
> > M&W as well.
>
> And I haven't forgotten M & W, but since they would not have approved of the
> romantic turn the MSR took, I don't think they'd be interested in addressing
> it.
How do you know? According to Carter they would never have such a
relationship -- yet a couple years later he was stating that he had
"always" planned for such a turn to take place (one way or another,
the guy's a liar). Also, I recall hearing that Carter would even edit
Morgan and Wong episodes or scripts to take out more overtly romantic
(or whatever you want to call it) material in earlier seasons. I don't
know what they would have done, but as far as a romantic element
Carter at least tried to pretend himself that there was nothing there
in that same time period (though I always thought the show
contradicted to great extent early on what was being said in
interviews by the cast and Carter as far as that).
>Carter might not be CAPABLE of addressing it, but at least the will
> might be there. I don't know if it is for M & W.
It's a little late to question whether the will is there, as the turn
has already been made and the change in the relationship is going to
have to be, one assumes, inherently part of the record in any future
projects with said characters.
>
> >
> > I think All Things is evidence of Carter's never-ending chain pulling
> > on the relationship issue. While it's pretty obvious what the point of
> > the ep is and one can assume that the relationship between the two
> > changed with it finally, it still is never overtly stated primarily so
> > he would be left with wiggle room to go back to whatever teasing and
> > so forth was convenient -- which is a major part of why season 8 is
> > such a dismal failure.
> >
>
> But what WAS stated in All Things was enough for me. If you were looking to
> have confirmation that M & S had sex, I guess you'd be frustrated by Carter
> leaving himself wiggle room, but I wasn't ever looking for that.
But it's definitely problematic when considering season 8, and since
the show was going in such a romantic direction for such a long period
one also questions why Carter could not allow it to be overtly
confirmed and then move on from there -- when analyzing that it's
telling enough as to Carter's motives, and I'd say it shows that he
was treating that element as a gimmick. Look at season 8 for
confirmation -- the fact taht it was never overtly confirmed left
Carter the leeway to screw up the relationship and the interactions
between the characters in that season; after all, things had to be
stilted, awkward, ambiguous and short as far as Mulder/Scully scenes
otherwise the aforementioned relationship issue would finally by
addressed and confirmed along with the parentage of the baby. The fact
that Carter was incapable of meeting this head-on at all, but rather
could only tell a story by leaving his audience out of much of the
loop as far as the relationship between the two main characters,
points to horrible and lacking storytelling ability and, in the end, a
great amount of cowardice on his part.
The only way Carter never confirming it (except retroactively with his
little scene in Existence and elsewhere) is okay, is if you think the
way the relationship was handled in season 8 was okay. So much of
what's wrong with that season is the way in which the show was scared
to death suddenly of one of its greatest strengths -- the relationship
between its two main characters. This, specifically, would not have
been a problem if the exact nature of said relationship had been
confirmed overtly in season 7 -- All Things would have been a good
place -- and just moved on from there, being able to still use it as a
strength and craft a decent storyline around the pregnancy/baby
through the show's already existing themes of family (Unbound had a
good post on this) instead of the nearly non-existent storyline we
were given in regards to this issue (Mulder returned---> Scully has
baby---> Mulder confirmed as father is all the substance there is for
that storyline in season 8, which is about as much as you could find
from reading a damned outline, maybe less)
See, in the end, not just revealing it at the time instead of later on
was a gimmick that overtly train-wrecked the show (along with Carter's
hate of his star and need to try and pretend that his main character
was not needed). That's unforgiveable, as there's no real reason for
this to have happened other than Carter's cowardly nature on the
subject and the need to have gimmicky gotcha plot elements that most
could see coming a mile off. This is the type of stuff -- inherently
connected to the relationship (and many other areas in the serialized
storyline) -- that makes me hope that Carter never touches anything
XF-related again.
>I wanted
> confirmation of other things -- that they choose each other, given other
> options. I like to see the fundamental affection, need and voluntary
> dependence between them.
We got that in earlier seasons quite enough, and I think the
cofirmation of a physical relationship was needed for resolution
(after all, if you're writing more and more romantically driven plots
it certainly tells the audience of a non-platonic feeling between the
two characters, so why can't we see the change overtly addressed and
resolved onscreen instead of only being hinted at?) and for later
story arcs.
Also, unfortunately, some of Scully's actions in a season like number
8 contradict a great deal of what you say you were looking for and got
earlier in the timeline. Again, because of Carter and his pettiness.
>
>
> > In fact, he dragged the whole "will they/won't they" scenario out way
> > too long, as well as the "have they/haven't they" BS that later came
> > up.
>
> >
> > I would hope that someone else entirely be in charge. Let Duchovny run
> > it if you can't trust M&W, but no more Carter. NO no no no no no!
>
> I have nothing against Duchovny being involved or Vince, like I said before.
> I'm thinking even John Shiban.
Does this include Carter in the head slot?
>
> > So, only Carter was good?
>
> No, I never said that. M & W have been good before. But they've also hurt
> me. Heavens, Darin's WOTC was delightful and funny, but I was still a
> little bothered. Carter hasn't hurt me in the same way. YMMV, actually
> it's obvious that your mileage DOES vary.
Hurt you? So Scully not even bothering to look for Mulder and shoving
his nameplate away in his desk doesn't hurt, but some bitchy arguing
-- that really says nothiong of their true feelings for each other --
in earlier seasons does? I think the former was far more damaging as
far as commentary on the relationship and Scully as a person.
>
> >I think many would disagree with you.
>
> Well, that has nothing to do with anything. The fact that many disagreed
> with me, never stopped me from wanting what I want.
If it has nothing to do with anything, why quote it? I notice you left
out plenty of the rest of my previous post. Just food for thought.
>
>
> > Dark aspect? In what context?
>
> A type of antagonism or hostility between Mulder and Scully that I don't
> mind visiting during the course of a season, but I have no interest in
> exploring in a film that may be the last XF we ever get. I want friction
> yes, especially when there's fear, hurt or insecurity at its core and you
> gain a better understanding of each other through the conflict.
I don't see that in an episode like Home for example. Not at all. So
I'm not seeing as how this is the only way the two treated the MSR on
the show.
Carter certainly had these elements as well. Or are we forgetting --
or striking from the record -- episodes such as One Son, Arcadia and
so forth now? How about a great amount of season 8, where the entire
show, including a Scully pregnant with Mulder's kid, shows a great
deal of hostility towards its missing center? That didn't "hurt"?
I never saw anything as overtly malicious from Morgan and Wong as what
Carter tried to pull the last couple seasons. Oh, I know, you're not
only loking at those seasons -- yes, yes, -- but it certainly would be
more intellectually honest if you would look at them directly and
admit just how much the guy you want back in his old slot had to do
with what was done. At the very least M&W episodes had quality on
their side a majority of the time, unlike what Carter gave us in 8 &
9.
>I think
> that's needed, but I don't want latent animosity to surface without real
> cause or for humor's sake alone. Life is short. I just don't need that.
What was the cause for the animosity towards Mulder in season 8? Was
that okay? Is that to be forgotten now?
>
> > You act as if Carter will give you what you want --
>
> I don't act like that at all. And never said anything close to it. It's
> not like I'm a Carter militant who thinks only HE can do it right.
Yet, once again, you ignore the parts of my post as to what he did
wrong while you only praise what he did right. That says alot. And
that's what you did by again cutting the above paragraph of my post
short where I pointed out some of the horrible and "hurtful" crap he
pulled.
>I think
> it's a risk either way. I'd just rather take a gamble on him sooner than on
> M & W and you would do the opposite. I don't think either bet is a
> certainty.
>
> Michele
I don't think it's a risk either way, as I don't believe that M&W will
mistreat the relationship like you do. The odd thing is, that judging
by your arguments, you're perfectly fine with what Carter did with the
relationship even though it brought on so many of the problems a
future movie will face in that regard. Yet Morgan and Wong are somehow
worse? I can't see how people would believe that in regards to any
element after season 8 & 9.
And why is it that you refuse to judge Carter on seasons 8+9 but have
no problem fully judging Morgan and Wong on their last season and half
or so even though you talk liking their material in the first two
seasons? The two arguments look contradictory I'm afraid.
I guess in the end it was more about the destination than the journey
for you, which would contradict your earlier statements on the
relationship but is the only true defense of Carter in regards to the
relationship when looking at season 8 & 9.
Unbound I
>Date: 3/11/2004 3:46 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <1b5910f8.04031...@posting.google.com>
>
>"Michele Jackson" <michele...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:<Rfz3c.33453$YT.2...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
>> "ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1b5910f8.04030...@posting.google.com...
>> > > Did you even get those in the last two seasons?
>>
>> Yes, I did get a few of those moments in the last two seasons,
>
>Yeah, there were a few, but they were buried under a bunch of needless
>garbage, including unsubtle attacks on that very relationship through
>Doggett earlier in the season.
>
>
>
re-watch the final moments of "Patience" again. Listen carefully to what the
old man tells Scully about the dangers of obsessive relationships and notice
how Scully responds to those comments by then putting Mulder's nameplate in the
desk. I can't think of a more direct statement on Mulder and the Mulder-Scully
relationship in S8 than that moment. It was truly one of the most shocking
moments in the history of the series because it knowingly and willfully
undercut everything the series stood for. Maggie Helwig wrote a wonderful
analysis of this episode and those moments in particular in this newsgroup and
to this day, I think it stands as the definite commentary on that repugnant
episode and that disgusting action by Scully.
People can argue against it if they so desire, but no one will ever be able
to convince me that Carter did not have serious issues with David at that time
and they manifested themselves through the writing by reducing Mulder to an
afterthought. When Scully cried in Doggett's arms at the end of "Without," I
knew the series was in big trouble, but when she put his nameplate in the desk,
I knew it was over. The series I loved was officially dead and it wasn't going
to return.
As far as "Never Again," while I have serious problems with the direction
Morgan and Wong wanted to take Mulder and Scully in S4 (it's one of the
instances where I believe Carter made the right call in vetoing their plan and
going with the crisis of faith storyline instead - though he botched that up
poorly in S5), I do love this episode because I think it's a sensational look
at Scully and where she was at that time. I do think it's realistic and I do
think it was in character because she was searching for her own sense of self.
As she told Mulder in "E.B.E.," his passion was amazing, but also blinding
and I think it blinded her to who she was. She had become sucked into Mulder's
world and lost her own sense of self in the process. This was her way, albeit
an irrational one perhaps, of re-discovering who she was. And Mulder was also
blinded to all of this. He assumed because Scully was at his side, there was
nothing else to question because he never questioned his own reasons for being
there. They were inherent to him. But they weren't inherent to Scully, they
were adopted by her and that's something Mulder didn't understand at the time.
Scully needed to find who she was or risk losing herself completely to
Mulder's powerful personal world. She chose a risky path in "Never Again," but
it felt totally in character to me and I understood precisely her reasons for
doing what she did. The episode worked and the non-resolution ending was a
stroke of genius by Morgan and Wong. There was no ending at that time because
their individual and mutual journeys of self-discovery still had a long way to
go before they ended. So no words from Mulder could suffice.
Unbound I
think if there is a second film, David is going to take some steps to be as
creatively involved as he can be. How that will manifest itself remains to be
seen -- again assuming we even see a second film which is hardly a certainty.
ColemansLoveChild
Well, as I would think you'd probably guess by now, there's no
argument from me on the subject. I was and have been disgusted with
Carter's pathetic and petty attempts to sabotage the relationship, in
the end sinking his own show. He could have done something to turn
things around -- though the above moments would still be there
unforgivably -- but instead chose to only waste time, what little
there was left as far as the Mulder character, even as so much of the
show and its continued plotting was desperately in need of that
character's presence, actions and outlook to illuminate or survive.
The funniest thing was in the final months watching him change his
tune -- how the show was really about the two characters and their
relationship more than anything, bla blah blah. Yet another
contradiction. It's just too bad this wasn't more than an empty
platitude, or at least something that he couldn't realize until it was
too late and he had badly damaged things.
Just remember, it's not as if it was called "The Mulder-Files" or
something, as I remember a Carter yes-man stating bitterly as the show
was going off the air. I guess the majority of the audience --
including myself -- misunderstood just who and what the show was about
for years. :P
> As far as "Never Again," while I have serious problems with the direction
> Morgan and Wong wanted to take Mulder and Scully in S4 (it's one of the
> instances where I believe Carter made the right call in vetoing their plan and
> going with the crisis of faith storyline instead - though he botched that up
> poorly in S5),
I wasn't aware that there was an alternate storyline in the works.
What was the idea from Morgan and Wong?
>I do love this episode because I think it's a sensational look
> at Scully and where she was at that time. I do think it's realistic and I do
> think it was in character because she was searching for her own sense of self.
> As she told Mulder in "E.B.E.," his passion was amazing, but also blinding
> and I think it blinded her to who she was. She had become sucked into Mulder's
> world and lost her own sense of self in the process. This was her way, albeit
> an irrational one perhaps, of re-discovering who she was. And Mulder was also
> blinded to all of this. He assumed because Scully was at his side, there was
> nothing else to question because he never questioned his own reasons for being
> there. They were inherent to him. But they weren't inherent to Scully, they
> were adopted by her and that's something Mulder didn't understand at the time.
> Scully needed to find who she was or risk losing herself completely to
> Mulder's powerful personal world. She chose a risky path in "Never Again," but
> it felt totally in character to me and I understood precisely her reasons for
> doing what she did. The episode worked and the non-resolution ending was a
> stroke of genius by Morgan and Wong. There was no ending at that time because
> their individual and mutual journeys of self-discovery still had a long way to
> go before they ended. So no words from Mulder could suffice.
I watched it again a few months back and found it to be a very well
made episode. The best scene is the last one, which truly sums things
up with it's non-ending and lack of resolution through the two just
having a silent standoff in the final shot.
I got far more out of it than I did the first time I watched it, where
I admit I was more excited at 13 at the prospect of Scully with her
shirt off in the preview than the relatively tame but suggestive
episode that actually came about the next week. There's something
unsettling and slightly erotic about the episode yet you hardly see
much of anything overtly at all (and still question, in typical
fashion for the show, what exactly did happen in some regards, if
really anything). A great lesson in style if nothing else. Another
example in that regard, and others, of how rare gem this show was when
it was at its best.
Pattie
I do agree it would be great if he were creatively involved. Did you
see how much more his character and history were fleshed out when he
co-wrote several episodes? As well, IMHO, Gillian Anderson brought
Scully into a fuller character when she wrote and directed her
episode.
The characters then became thier babies, not just Chris and Company's.
Pattie
Michele Jackson
> >
>
> And yet the basis of much of your argument for the need for his
> involvement are his very destructive arcs through the last two
> seasons. I find a contradiction there, frankly.
There's only a contradiction because you're twisting my statements into what
YOU want my argument to be, rather than addressing what it is. I did not
say there was a need for Carter's involvement in the next movie. I said
that I didn't trust Morgan and Wong with it. If there had been a post
saying that Vince might be writing the next movie, I wouldn't have demurred
at all. All of your criticisms of Carter don't change my view of Morgan and
Wong.
>You ignore that it was
> specifically Carter that did A, B, and C with the relationship over
> the last two seasons yet point out these elements independently of him
> as a reason that he needs to be there on the next movie? I see a
> dichotomy.
I did no such thing. You're living in a fantasy world. I never said he
needs to be there on the next movie. I said that I don't think Morgan and
Wong can resolve the problems. I did not say that I thought ng been ould, I
just don't think they'd be inclined to even try. As for CC, I don't agree
with your conclusion that because he was responsible for the mess, he can't
clean it up. In fact having been there when everything went wrong and
witnessed the fall progressively as it happened, he might have great insight
into restoring things. If he WANTS to tackle the problem I think he can do
so very well. That wasn't his goal before. He had other objectives when
the show ended. Since then I think he may have gained some perspective and
humility. I think he was angry with David (and frankly with viewers) at the
end of the series. I don't think you can hold on to that type of anger
forever, especially not when you will need both David and the fans to get
back what was lost. That's why I think his head could be in a different
place now.
>
> But your argument is that M&W's view of the MSR changed from what it
> originally was -- why is that not also applicapable to Carter over the
> last couple seasons?
Because I saw a willingness in Carter to go with the flow, with the
inevitable (which is partly what Milagro was all about really, the writer
and creater losing control of his own creation). He compromises when forced
and his compromises have always been enough for me. I don't know if M & W
will have that willingness to compromise and I'd rather not take the chance.
>As even you admit, Never Again would fit in well
> with the characterization of the last two seasons -- and you dislike
> that characterization. Well Carter was the man responsible for a hell
> of alot more than one ep those last two seasons.
>
So what? Since I disagree with your basic premise that the man who
destroyed the last two seasons should never be allowed to touch the show
again, all of your arguments about how bad those last two seasons were
aren't going to sway my view on this subject.
Furthermore, I didn't dislike the characterizations during the last 2
seasons as much as you obviously did. By assuming that someone felt exactly
the same way you did, I suppose you're always going to be surprised when
their conclusions differ from yours. Except for Monica Reyes, The Gift and
Roadrunner, there were many things I liked during the last season.
>
> A flashback would not have made the point, as so much of it,
> disfunctional or not, was about the changing nature of the
> relationship -- not what Scully had previously been, if there was ever
> a great difference at all -- of the two main characters.
Only a flashback could have made the point for me, because the Scully I had
known and the relationship she had with Mulder was not the Scully they tried
to present to me in NA. In a flashback I could have seen the girl who
looked up to Ahab and dated her former instructor, the one who took her
skiing and held her in a blanket all night. But she and Mulder had never
shared that same kind of "father figure" relationship. Obviously, she
looked up to him, but she mothered more than he fathered. Their dysfunction
had always been of a different type. It's more about resenting the power
that you give and cede to another, rather than rebelling against the power
that they have.
Scully's reverence for Mulder may be almost as great in proportion to the
way she "worshipped" Ahab, but the "power" Mulder has over her has never
been comparable because (1) he only has the power that she GIVES him, which
is not true of our parents. Parents start out with power and we have no say
in the matter and no matter how long we live in many ways we continue to
respond to
their involuntary control over our destinies and decisions and (2) Scully
has a DIFFERENT but equal amount of power over Mulder. Mulder acts like a
little boy much more often than Scully acts like a little girl. She
constantly mothers, questions and shames him into altering his conduct. And
his beautiful mind aside, he was by far the biggest dunce on the show in
many instances. No one
can be quite as blind or naive than Mulder sometimes was. Actually, Scully
feels the need to boss Mulder around much less often than he does her, but
Mulder is less likely to "disobey" an order from Scully than she is a
direction from him. Either Mulder says nothing when she tells him he's
wrong, but then he goes and follows up like she wanted him to do outside of
his presence OR he
does what she says when she's there and then does something else as soon as
he can get away.
Mulder exhibited no behavior that Scully would have to put up with if she
didn't want to. I think that their partnership is equal at its base and
heart, so that if Mulder treats her like a
subordinate at times, they could deal with that without dismantling the
foundation of the partnership, without it being a deep-seated thing. Yet for
that episode alone, she suddenly acts like a dog who had been chained for a
fence who, once the chain is removed, never realizes he's finally free.
That was a new Scully for me. One I'd never been introduced to before.
So, I can't see the rationale for her behavior in "Never Again." The
episode would probably work better for me if Scully just became attracted to
a troubled guy. She's single. Attractions happen. This
makes more sense than them trying to tell us that she became attracted to
him simply because it was the unpredictable thing to do and to keep sight of
herself she has to do what is NOT expected of her and stop being dutiful. I
think her motivation here makes her seem like LESS of an independent person
and more of a pawn, follower and by product than I'd thought of her before.
I think "Never Again" makes her weaker in ways "Milagro" never comes close
to doing. She didn't take a stand against Mulder or her father or
authority. She
ducked, hid, hung up the phone, pouted and became involved with someone who
revealed violent tendencies (the way he reacted when she tried to unbutton
his shirt and was holding her arm when the door slammed shut, looked like
someone who was out of control and could threaten physical harm). This is
what a child does after whining about being bossed around, not what a woman
does to show she
is the one in charge of her own life.
"Milagro" shows us the adult questions Scully has about herself. "Never
Again" shows us how little she has progressed. She remains the teenager who
is still stealing cigarettes, not because she really wants to smoke, but for
no other reason than that she knows her dad would hate it if he knew. In
"Never Again," she starts out asking for permission to be equal. Why ask
Mulder why she
doesn't have a desk? Why not ask the FBI requisition department and tell
Mulder to "deal with it" when the desk arrives and he feels cramped? She
told him she'd be late for the autopsy in "Milagro" and that was the end of
the story. He waited for her. He didn't have a choice and maybe he learned
a lesson: not to schedule her appointments without checking with her in the
future if he didn't want to end up with egg on his face. In "Never Again,"
if he learned anything it was that she was more reactionary, dependent and
confused than he'd (or I'd) ever before imagined.
I feel that "Never Again" while engaging, exciting and evocative, in parts,
is really superficial, aberrational. It was only about Scully (and Scully
and
Ahab, Scully and Mulder)at her most epidural level and didn't visit the
depths of the character we'd come to know.
I feel that if Scully was not completely out of character in NA, that she
was at least out of her most substantive character and that we were looking
at a superficial, ineffectual woman who may be a
part of Scully, but is such a negligible part that watching her was like
watching a transparency, compared to the depths we usually get. It wasn't
her going to Ed Jerse's place that I
first found out of character. For me, the irreconcilable inconsistencies
started in the FBI office, continued in the hotel room, and traveled to
Jerse's apartment (which was laid out in a
manner quite similar to Mulder's). You say you don't know if there was ever
a great difference between the woman we saw and what Scully had previously
been, but I feel the
person we saw regularly up to that point couldn't inhabit the same body as
the shallow person I saw in NA.
In a lawsuit, when determining the admissibility of evidence, there's a
statute that says you cannot use character to prove conduct. It means that
if a person has a particular
character or trait, you can't point to that character or trait as proof that
that person committed a specific crime. CSM is a smoker, but if there's a
fire at FBI headquarters caused by a
Morley cigarette, we can't use that Morley smoking trait to prove he caused
the fire. However, the Evidence Code says you CAN use character and trait
to show evidence of motive, opportunity,
intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absece of mistatke or
accident. I think of this rule of law when I consider my feelings about
Scully.
I didn't know everything about her and everything that she's done (I noticed
there was some past history about her rebellious youth cut out of the Never
Again script, where young Scully sounded a
lot like young GA, with the mohawk, etc.). Still, it only takes a little
piece of DNA to reconstruct an entire body's make up. Based on the limited
character and traits I DO see and DO know, I think I can make some pretty
accurate assumptions about her motives, goals and approaches to reaching
them. The approaches she used in NA, to resolve her understandable
frustrations, seemed like acts completely foreign to the Scully I'd seen
before. I don't know everything about her. I don't know everything that
she is, but I think I know enough to safely conclude a few things she's not.
For me she is Milagro, not NA.
To address your point about it being easier for her to become attracted to a
stranger than to deal with her feelings for Mulder, I don't think that
Scully was ever attracted to Padgett. She was magnetically drawn to what he
was saying about her and needed to know for herself how much of it was true
and, if a lot of it was true, wanted to know how he knew it when she herself
didn't fully realize it. I think she was fascinated with his fascination of
her.
To the extent that he knew her, she wondered how she could be that easily
known to others. If she's that transparent to him, does that mean she's
that self-delusional?
If she's that transparent to him, does that mean her FBI colleagues see
things she doesn't want them to see too? Or if she is not especially
transparent and Padgett is just so darn insightful, does that
mean that other normal people don't see in her what they SHOULD see (i.e.
her telling Mulder "I think you know me better than that?" Does he? Should
he? Why?)? I think Milagro is a much more layered episode than "Never
Again" and I don't think it shows the characters acting in unexpected ways.
I think Milagro breaks through the surface and shows the character core, a
core that it takes the writer Padgett to bring to us.
I only see NA as being about the MSR in a manufactured sense. I think M & W
made the relationship into something it really wasn't for the purposes of
the episode, while Milagro dealt with the real thing. In Milagro, when
Padgett says at the end that Scully was already in love, it told me what the
whole episode was about, not about being in love per se, but about reacting
to Mulder. From the time she opens the envelope placed under the door of
HIS office, their relationship is at issue. They aren't at odds as they are
in "Never Again" although Mulder is as
furious with her in "Milagro" as he ever gets. In "Milagro" they are still
partners working not against each other, but questioning the dynamics of
that partnership. Scully has the
flaming heart in her hand and Mulder is abstractedly telling her it has
nothing to do with the case over the telephone and he hasn't seen it. He's
so sure that he's right even when she has
the best opportunity to analyze the evidence. As Padgett says, right then
and there Mulder has set up a challenge for her, to prove Mulder wrong, to
show that she can do more than autopsy.
Of course, there's nothing wrong in having her forte in the scientific
rather than the psychological. Mulder is absolutely illogical when it
comes to his faith and pride in her medical
skills and the fact that he thinks profiling is not her strength isn't
demeaning, but she sees it that way, so before she ever learns that Padgett
has been stalking her, her interest in the
"secret admirer" has already been identified as being all about Mulder and
proving him wrong.
Of course, both she and Mulder tell each other that they were right: He
says the heart IS related to the killings as she said and she says that the
heart was sent by a secret admirer as he
said. In the end, as in the end of most X-Files shows, we find that both
Mulder and Scully are right (Scully is right in saying that Padgett
imagined the killings and Mulder is right in
saying that Padgett was involved in them).
Because of the heart and the revelation that Padgett is the secret admirer
who sent it, Mulder has more than just the newspaper classified to make him
suspect Padgett. So,
I don't think he leaped to conclusions there, but I do think he definitely
had no reason to go busting into Padgett's apartment, gun drawn.
I think the show is about underlying sexual tension, about Scully's
feelings about being a sexual object, perceived as such by a stalker and by
her professional
colleagues too. I see it as being not about her sexual attraction to
Padgett, which I think is non-existent, but her inability to realize her
professional goals without quashing her
more human desires and needs. Does she have to totally deny the latter to
maintain the other and, if she does, what is the result, what does the
festering do to her. Padgett's book says
what it has done and is trying to come to terms with how much of what he
wrote is really true.
> In the end we get this central point of Scully or Mulder choosing each
> other over all others throughout season 6 and 7. We see it in The
> Ghosts Who Stole Christmas, in much of the storyline of the Mytharc
> from from the end of season five to the beginning of season 7 with
> Mulder choosing Scully over Fowley, in All Things and, again, in
> Milagro. We also get it in various dialogue moments between the
> characters or others in that time period. I'm probably forgetting some
> more specific examples, but the thing is that that point was not a
> unique one to the show -- more than anything it points to the
> characters and their relationship going in circles in that period
> because things had basically reached or were near their crescendo
> here, as it was from the movie onwards.
But I never minded the MSR going in circles -- at least not in those kinds
of circles. I never yearned for any sexual or romantic progression. I was
happy with an episode if it showed the MSR functioning as much as it
dysfunctioned or -- even better -- functioning because of its dysfunction.
I was pleased whenever M & S revealed more to each other, but never needed
them to reveal anything new to me. That's not what I was there for. I
enjoyed having the things I cherished in their relationship restated and
reaffirmed.
> How do you know?
I don't know. I don't know what Morgan and Wong would be inclined to do. I
don't know M & W as well as I know Carter. That's why I consider him the
lesser of the two evils.
> It's a little late to question whether the will is there, as the turn
> has already been made and the change in the relationship is going to
> have to be, one assumes, inherently part of the record in any future
> projects with said characters.
Not if the next movie is just a MOTW.
> We got that in earlier seasons quite enough, and I think the
> cofirmation of a physical relationship was needed for resolution
I don't. I think it's rather irrelevant. I don't see how whether Mulder or
Scully are having sex could alter their commitment to each other in any way.
You know, I'm the sort of person who thought the bee interrupting the kiss
in the hall was just fine. The scene told me all I needed or wanted to
know. So, I'm just not frustrated by the things that frustrate you. Sorry.
> If it has nothing to do with anything, why quote it? I notice you left
> out plenty of the rest of my previous post. Just food for thought.
I quoted it because I found it a rather amusing and childish ploy and just
thought I'd point out to you how uncompelling such tactics are. When you
can no longer support your point of view, just say that plenty of people
agree with you to bolster it. I don't really care if no one agrees with
me -- except the makers of the next movie. I need THEM to agree with me,
because that way I have more of a chance of getting what I want.
> I don't see that in an episode like Home for example. Not at all. So
> I'm not seeing as how this is the only way the two treated the MSR on
> the show.
I didn't say that this was the only way they treated the MSR. They treated
it beautifully when the show began. They changed course over the years. I
have no reason to think that they will change back. Carter vacillates, so
I'm betting he can be convinced to go with the flow.
>
> Carter certainly had these elements as well. Or are we forgetting --
> or striking from the record -- episodes such as One Son, Arcadia and
> so forth now?
Why do you think that knocking Carter somehow makes M & W look better? It
doesn't. It reminds me of the Mulder and Scully wars. I remember saying
that if I really believed Mulder's brown hair was unattractive, someone
pointing out that Scully's hair was too red and that she was probably a man
wouldn't make me like the brown hair more. I think M & W are unpredictable.
I know CC better, not just because of his own work and the greater bulk of
it to judge, but because of the work he LET other people do on the show.
So, I'd trust him more with the next movie. Doesn't mean I think he's
wonderful. I've complained about him plenty and will probably do so again.
But I just don't think he's anathema to everything the XF I loved stood for.
I didn't particularly like One Son, but if you think that all One Son did
was focus on the antagonism between Mulder and Scully, then you really look
at things superficially. And I really don't know what you mean about
Arcadia. That episode. . . There wasn't any antagonism between Mulder and
Scully in it. They were both having a grand old time. Now, I think it was
kind of a stupid XF, especially when I think of the blooper reel with that
monster in it. But the MSR was a beautiful, funny thing. When Sculster was
sitting on that sofa with Mulder's arm around her, she was really starting
to get into it. My goodness, they were ADORABLE. What are you talking
about?!
You have a big production number in Wetwired (another beautiful episode,
with friction I enjoy) when he goes to identify the body that might be
Scully's, but to me, I can sense the same trepidation
when he's looking for her in Arcadia, passing those bloodied walls as he
ascends the stairs. He's so relieved just to hear her voice when she calls
out to him, but he hides his relief. She tells him that she has seen the
monster. That's when we know how scared he was, because when else would
Mulder ever ignore the fact that Scully is admitting she's seen a monster.
Also, the way he leaves her in the closet as he goes back downstairs is
similar to the subtle protective thing he does in Milagro (leaving her in
his apartment and closing the door when he goes downstairs). He doesn't
want her back downstairs with him, but rather than tell her that, he just
runs out without freeing her.
> How about a great amount of season 8, where the entire
> show, including a Scully pregnant with Mulder's kid, shows a great
> deal of hostility towards its missing center? That didn't "hurt"?
Well, it didn't hurt me, because I didn't see the antagonism you're talking
about. Actually, I thought the last seasons hurt Scully more than it hurt
the MSR. That's what I resented them for, the Scully stupidity. I didn't
feel really bad about the MSR. DD was gone. I felt the options were
limited with what they could do and the MSR fared ok under the dire
circumstances. I didn't think Scully forgot about him. I think it looked
like he ran away from his responsibilities, but didn't consider the harm
irreparable. I was disappointed by some things, but except for William
being given up like that, I wasn't HURT. NA hurt quite a bit. But I was
also a little saddened by the way that Mulder and Scully were willing to
part and never see each other again during that headlight scene in Dreamland
II. So, I just get miffed by things that don't impact other people and I
apparently can accept a lot of things that other people can't, as well.
> I never saw anything as overtly malicious from Morgan and Wong as what
> Carter tried to pull the last couple seasons. Oh, I know, you're not
> only loking at those seasons -- yes, yes, -- but it certainly would be
> more intellectually honest if you would look at them directly and
> admit just how much the guy you want back in his old slot had to do
> with what was done.
I never said that Carter had nothing to do with it. It's not like I'm
turning a blind eye and saying it's not his fault. In fact, I'm the one who
said a lot of what he did was based on his anger at DD. At the time, I
remember scoffing at the "manly man" interviews he gave, saying I hadn't
heard anyone talk like that since Laura Ingalls Wilder on Little House on
the Prairie. I never said CC wasn't responsible for the last Seasons. I
just said that he's also responsible for the seasons that come before it.
You think I must be in denial because I don't agree with you. But it's
simpler than that: I just don't agree.
>
> What was the cause for the animosity towards Mulder in season 8? Was
> that okay? Is that to be forgotten now?
Who's forgetting it? What does it have to do with Movie 2?
Your problem is you seem to want to punish CC. If you want him to be cut
out of the next movie to teach him a lesson, that's fine. Envision him
crying his eyes out, thinking of his baby in someone else's arms (much like
young William is, with that psycho looking farm family) and get your
revenge. For my part, I didn't take it that personally. I don't want to
punish him, whether he needs it or not. I just want a second movie I can
love. I think that having lost everything and been forcibly idle for the
last few years, maybe he's at a place now where he's fresh, repentant and
ready to give me more of what I liked so much in the XF's earlier years.
> And why is it that you refuse to judge Carter on seasons 8+9 but have
> no problem fully judging Morgan and Wong on their last season and half
> or so even though you talk liking their material in the first two
> seasons? The two arguments look contradictory I'm afraid.
Because I think Morgan and Wong simply wanted to be different and their
reasons for changing the direction of the MSR were less pressured, personal
and reactionary than CC's. That's why I think their view was the one least
likely to change over time, because it was not as based on emotion or
current events. I think CC's view of the MSR was the one most susceptible
to changing with the circumstances. He's no longer desperate or angry,
probably just wistful for the heyday that's past him. So, I think he's in
the best position to give (or be persuaded into giving) the next movie the
elements that I want to see.
>
> I guess in the end it was more about the destination than the journey
> for you, which would contradict your earlier statements on the
> relationship but is the only true defense of Carter in regards to the
> relationship when looking at season 8 & 9.
That's the most illogical thing you've said yet, since you're the one so
obviously hung up on "destination." You didn't like Mulder and Scully
running around in circles, rediscovering the same fundamental truths, but I
was fascinated each time they chose one another again, because every
interaction taught me something. If their relationship didn't move farther
ahead (and I think it did), then I felt it was moving deeper, even while
standing in place. I relished the depth. She bursts into his motel room in
The Pilot and he doesn't know what to do. She bursts into his motel in
Requiem, he pulls her in, takes off her boots, covers her up, spoons her (oh
there's that beautiful Arcadia again, spooned like two baby kittens). And
they're in yet another motel room in the series finale, so much closer in
understanding than they were in The Pilot. That's all the "movement" that I
ever needed.
It's because it was and is always about the journey for me that I never
became as bitter about where the show ended up, as others did. All I cared
about was watching Mulder and Scully get there, to the extent that I could.
That's why I wasn't gnashing my teeth when Mulder found Samanta in
Starlight, because I was more concerned that he found peace than that he
found the factual truth about her disappearance and death. I didn't need
the beginning scene in All Things and don't care what CC cut from it. All I
needed was the ending -- which was the beginning, after all. Yeah, it went
in circles. Maybe that's why I liked it!
If I hear M & W's names listed as writers on the next movie, I'm going to be
more worried than if I hear CC's name. It's that simple. But in the end
it's not going to matter, because unless I can somehow make enough money to
become one of the movie's backers, no one is going to ask me to choose the
writers. Michele
Michele Jackson
done with Mulder in that his inner feelings were so very apparent, even if
they were the exact opposite of what was expressed. I loved his abrasive
tactics, because they gave even greater poignancy to the unutttered feelings
beneath them. He was trying to provoke her into talking from the moment he
came into the office after the Vietnam Memorial (which is not unlike the way
he tried to provoke her into talking in Elegy when he comes to her after her
doctor's appointment and doesn't talk about THAT, but does spend a lot of
time talking about dead, dead, dead people). He was trying to provoke her
into talking again in NA when he walked into the office in the end and told
her Congratulations for showing up 3 times in the X Files. And finally in
the closing shot he was still trying to get her to talk, "but it's . . ."
Mulder's manner was lovely -- and quite Mulderish-- throughout. Michele
Unbound I
>direction
>> Morgan and Wong wanted to take Mulder and Scully in S4 (it's one of the
>> instances where I believe Carter made the right call in vetoing their plan
>and
>> going with the crisis of faith storyline instead - though he botched that
>up
>> poorly in S5),
>
>I wasn't aware that there was an alternate storyline in the works.
>What was the idea from Morgan and Wong?
>
>
>
apart to the point where the season would conclude with Scully having Mulder
committed. M&W believed S5 could then be a "season of healing." The problem was
I think they underestimated how much damage such a decision by Scully could
have on the relationship (and I'm not talking romance here) and how such a
decision may have totally underminded the series from that point forward. And I
just don't think the issue of trust was one that needed to be played out at
that time. I think it had been resolved previously and was no longer an issue.
M&W were away from the series for nearly two seasons and in that time a lot
happened between Mulder and Scully. I think Morgan and Wong under-estimated how
much the characters had grown and believed they were still in S2 mode where the
issue of trust could be more effectively dealt with. By S4, that issue was no
longer paramount and no longer needed to be used as a potential wedge between
them.
So I'm glad Carter nixed the idea. It was in the best interests of the
series and the characters. And personally, I like the crisis of faith idea MUCH
better anyway. The problem is, Carter mucked that up in S5 and provided a very
unsatisfactory resolution. But that doesn't detract from the point that it was,
in my opinion, a superior idea to what Morgan and Wong proposed.
Unbound I
>do
>> think if there is a second film, David is going to take some steps to be as
>> creatively involved as he can be. How that will manifest itself remains to
>be
>> seen -- again assuming we even see a second film which is hardly a
>certainty.
>>
>> Unbound I
>> Check out my book about The X-Files at
>> http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-0625.html
>
>I do agree it would be great if he were creatively involved. Did you
>see how much more his character and history were fleshed out when he
>co-wrote several episodes? As well, IMHO, Gillian Anderson brought
>Scully into a fuller character when she wrote and directed her
>episode.
>
>The characters then became thier babies, not just Chris and Company's.
>
>Pattie
>
>
>
Mulder, but Scully as well. He's proven that on the series several times over.
I think we'll find out a lot more about his writing skills when "House of D" is
released. The early buzz on that is very positive.
ColemansLoveChild
> "ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1b5910f8.04031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > >
> >
> > And yet the basis of much of your argument for the need for his
> > involvement are his very destructive arcs through the last two
> > seasons. I find a contradiction there, frankly.
>
>
> There's only a contradiction because you're twisting my statements into what
> YOU want my argument to be, rather than addressing what it is. I did not
> say there was a need for Carter's involvement in the next movie. I said
> that I didn't trust Morgan and Wong with it. If there had been a post
> saying that Vince might be writing the next movie, I wouldn't have demurred
> at all. All of your criticisms of Carter don't change my view of Morgan and
> Wong.
And yet so much of your argument isn't just one against Morgan and
Wong, but a defense of Carter to the point where you don't even want
to really directly consider his involvement in seasons 8 & 9.
>
> >You ignore that it was
> > specifically Carter that did A, B, and C with the relationship over
> > the last two seasons yet point out these elements independently of him
> > as a reason that he needs to be there on the next movie? I see a
> > dichotomy.
>
> I did no such thing. You're living in a fantasy world. I never said he
> needs to be there on the next movie. I said that I don't think Morgan and
> Wong can resolve the problems. I did not say that I thought ng been ould, I
> just don't think they'd be inclined to even try. As for CC, I don't agree
> with your conclusion that because he was responsible for the mess, he can't
> clean it up.
So, in conclusion, whether he NEEDS to be there or not you see no
reason why he shouldn't be. Semantically there isn't a great amount of
difference in this instance, as you still believe Carter to be fully
capable of doing something decent with the franchise. I don't. I think
an ep like The Truth was an attempt at that, but outside the
Mulder/Scully scenes -- which isn't enough to carry a movie or show
when everything around that relationship is crap --it was a horrible
episode.
>In fact having been there when everything went wrong and
> witnessed the fall progressively as it happened, he might have great insight
> into restoring things.
What, does that mean that Carter might point to himself for once in
his career? That truly would be a first. There's nothing in his
history to suggest he would. He's always more interested in defending
himself than ever admitting to a mistake.
>If he WANTS to tackle the problem I think he can do
> so very well.
Isn't that what an episode like The Truth was supposed to do? He had
two episodes worth of length, and basically accomplished nothing other
than making a bigger mess for any future storyline.
>That wasn't his goal before. He had other objectives when
> the show ended.
I think his goal was supposed to be to clean things up for a movie
franchise. For whatever reason, he failed miserably.
>Since then I think he may have gained some perspective and
> humility. I think he was angry with David (and frankly with viewers) at the
> end of the series. I don't think you can hold on to that type of anger
> forever, especially not when you will need both David and the fans to get
> back what was lost. That's why I think his head could be in a different
> place now.
In my view he was given more than enough chances and blew them all the
last couple seasons. No more. Whether it's Morgan and Wong or someone
else, I just don't want anymore Carter -- much the same way you feel
about Morgan and Wong.
>
> >
> > But your argument is that M&W's view of the MSR changed from what it
> > originally was -- why is that not also applicapable to Carter over the
> > last couple seasons?
>
> Because I saw a willingness in Carter to go with the flow, with the
> inevitable (which is partly what Milagro was all about really, the writer
> and creater losing control of his own creation). He compromises when forced
> and his compromises have always been enough for me. I don't know if M & W
> will have that willingness to compromise and I'd rather not take the chance.
But, again, it's already done, and they'd have to do something very
drastic and wholly unlikely to undo it. Chances are they'd never have
enough power to pull that off regardless, as there will be certain
demands placed on the production as far as material.
>
> >As even you admit, Never Again would fit in well
> > with the characterization of the last two seasons -- and you dislike
> > that characterization. Well Carter was the man responsible for a hell
> > of alot more than one ep those last two seasons.
> >
>
> So what? Since I disagree with your basic premise that the man who
> destroyed the last two seasons should never be allowed to touch the show
> again, all of your arguments about how bad those last two seasons were
> aren't going to sway my view on this subject.
I'm saying that by your standard for Morgan and Wong, Carter did alot
worse the last two seasons yet you refuse to judge him on his material
in that area while you judge them fully on the material from their
last couple seasons which you dislike. It's not coherent.
On one side you refuse to look at Carter's damaging material -- his
hateful record -- yet basically complain that that's all Morgan and
Wong knew as far as the MSR (at least the last couple years, according
to you), even though that's not any more true as far as them then it
is about Carter. I know you said they did good work the first two
years, but you don't consider that as part of their record in your
argument, just as you refuse to consider Carter's disgusting material
from the last two years when looking at him. I have a problem with
that.
>
> Furthermore, I didn't dislike the characterizations during the last 2
> seasons as much as you obviously did. By assuming that someone felt exactly
> the same way you did, I suppose you're always going to be surprised when
> their conclusions differ from yours. Except for Monica Reyes, The Gift and
> Roadrunner, there were many things I liked during the last season.
That's nice. Most of the fanbase disliked it -- and I'm sorry, but
that matters to any viability here as far as movies. I hate Doggett. I
think Scully was a weepy, bi-polar moron. I hate early season 8 and
that season as a whole. I think it's a badly written, malicious waste.
How somebody could accuse M&W of mistreating the MSR while defending
something like season 8's BS I have no idea.
If you want to defend the mistreatment of the previous story arcs and
the show's main character, as well as the relationship between Mulder
and Scully, during that period, go ahead. Though by contrast, I fail
to see how someone could have a problem with Morgan and Wong on the
same issues while being fine with season 8's handling of things.
>
> >
> > A flashback would not have made the point, as so much of it,
> > disfunctional or not, was about the changing nature of the
> > relationship -- not what Scully had previously been, if there was ever
> > a great difference at all -- of the two main characters.
>
> Only a flashback could have made the point for me, because the Scully I had
> known and the relationship she had with Mulder was not the Scully they tried
> to present to me in NA. In a flashback I could have seen the girl who
> looked up to Ahab and dated her former instructor, the one who took her
> skiing and held her in a blanket all night. But she and Mulder had never
> shared that same kind of "father figure" relationship. Obviously, she
> looked up to him, but she mothered more than he fathered. Their dysfunction
> had always been of a different type. It's more about resenting the power
> that you give and cede to another, rather than rebelling against the power
> that they have.
But it wasn't only about Scully, but actually her relationship with
Mulder. You can dislike what it said, but it's entire point would
cease in terms of a flashback.
>
> Scully's reverence for Mulder may be almost as great in proportion to the
> way she "worshipped" Ahab, but the "power" Mulder has over her has never
> been comparable because (1) he only has the power that she GIVES him, which
> is not true of our parents. Parents start out with power and we have no say
> in the matter and no matter how long we live in many ways we continue to
> respond to
> their involuntary control over our destinies and decisions and (2) Scully
> has a DIFFERENT but equal amount of power over Mulder. Mulder acts like a
> little boy much more often than Scully acts like a little girl. She
> constantly mothers, questions and shames him into altering his conduct. And
> his beautiful mind aside, he was by far the biggest dunce on the show in
> many instances. No one
> can be quite as blind or naive than Mulder sometimes was. Actually, Scully
> feels the need to boss Mulder around much less often than he does her, but
> Mulder is less likely to "disobey" an order from Scully than she is a
> direction from him. Either Mulder says nothing when she tells him he's
> wrong, but then he goes and follows up like she wanted him to do outside of
> his presence OR he
> does what she says when she's there and then does something else as soon as
> he can get away.
>
> Mulder exhibited no behavior that Scully would have to put up with if she
> didn't want to.
So, it's not okay for Scully to get pissed and do something a bit out
of character in NA, but it is okay for her to forget about Mulder and
shove his nameplate away while he's missing in season 8, even though
she was in a much more stable place with him at that point and even
was pregnant with his offspring? *That's* in-character? Okey dokey.
>I think that their partnership is equal at its base and
> heart, so that if Mulder treats her like a
> subordinate at times, they could deal with that without dismantling the
> foundation of the partnership, without it being a deep-seated thing. Yet for
> that episode alone, she suddenly acts like a dog who had been chained for a
> fence who, once the chain is removed, never realizes he's finally free.
> That was a new Scully for me. One I'd never been introduced to before.
>
> So, I can't see the rationale for her behavior in "Never Again." The
> episode would probably work better for me if Scully just became attracted to
> a troubled guy. She's single. Attractions happen. This
> makes more sense than them trying to tell us that she became attracted to
> him simply because it was the unpredictable thing to do and to keep sight of
> herself she has to do what is NOT expected of her and stop being dutiful. I
> think her motivation here makes her seem like LESS of an independent person
> and more of a pawn, follower and by product than I'd thought of her before.
But that could very well be the point. She goes out with another guy
because of her problems with Mulder -- if you take that out of the
episode you're left with something pretty vacuous in my view, and
something that does far less service for the characters present.
As I said, in my opinion it was a relationship episode at its base. It
wasn't pretty, but that's what you see examined within its confines.
And when you're doing a long-running, serialized show, not every
episode has to show the best side of the cahracters or their
relationship, especially when a broader point is being made and it's
all part of the changing dynamics between the two -- as long as it's
not a bitter end, I don't see the problem with a cliffhanger that is
moved past.
> I think "Never Again" makes her weaker in ways "Milagro" never comes close
> to doing. She didn't take a stand against Mulder or her father or
> authority. She
> ducked, hid, hung up the phone, pouted and became involved with someone who
> revealed violent tendencies (the way he reacted when she tried to unbutton
> his shirt and was holding her arm when the door slammed shut, looked like
> someone who was out of control and could threaten physical harm). This is
> what a child does after whining about being bossed around, not what a woman
> does to show she
> is the one in charge of her own life.
So? I don't see why Scully can't be flawed, or a little screwed up.
Mulder was alot screwed up and nobody really had a problem with that.
I don't see why Scully always has to be the dominating presence or
"strong" either.
> I didn't know everything about her and everything that she's done (I noticed
> there was some past history about her rebellious youth cut out of the Never
> Again script, where young Scully sounded a
> lot like young GA, with the mohawk, etc.).
And if that's true, I'd be against it. I never liked the idea of
pasting GA's personality or past over Scully - they aren't the same
person. That's something that's a bit problematic in spots as far as
All Things as well.
>Still, it only takes a little
> piece of DNA to reconstruct an entire body's make up. Based on the limited
> character and traits I DO see and DO know, I think I can make some pretty
> accurate assumptions about her motives, goals and approaches to reaching
> them. The approaches she used in NA, to resolve her understandable
> frustrations, seemed like acts completely foreign to the Scully I'd seen
> before. I don't know everything about her. I don't know everything that
> she is, but I think I know enough to safely conclude a few things she's not.
> For me she is Milagro, not NA.
And somebody could probably just as easily make the argument of Scully
being out of character in an episode like All Things. In quite a few
regards. At least as far as following who we knew her as up until that
episode. I can see how you could argue either side myself.
Which also points to manipulation. Does that really seem like a strong
character that doesn't question her place? Looks like many of the same
insecurities were present to some extent in Milagro.
>
> Of course, both she and Mulder tell each other that they were right: He
> says the heart IS related to the killings as she said and she says that the
> heart was sent by a secret admirer as he
> said. In the end, as in the end of most X-Files shows, we find that both
> Mulder and Scully are right (Scully is right in saying that Padgett
> imagined the killings and Mulder is right in
> saying that Padgett was involved in them).
>
> Because of the heart and the revelation that Padgett is the secret admirer
> who sent it, Mulder has more than just the newspaper classified to make him
> suspect Padgett. So,
> I don't think he leaped to conclusions there, but I do think he definitely
> had no reason to go busting into Padgett's apartment, gun drawn.
>
> I think the show is about underlying sexual tension, about Scully's
> feelings about being a sexual object, perceived as such by a stalker and by
> her professional
> colleagues too. I see it as being not about her sexual attraction to
> Padgett, which I think is non-existent, but her inability to realize her
> professional goals without quashing her
> more human desires and needs. Does she have to totally deny the latter to
> maintain the other and, if she does, what is the result, what does the
> festering do to her. Padgett's book says
> what it has done and is trying to come to terms with how much of what he
> wrote is really true.
That's a very nice look at the episode. I would only add that the same
theme is present in some regards in NA, whether it's handled
differently or much the same, depending on your perspective. I think
both are about questions of identity broadly.
>
>
> > In the end we get this central point of Scully or Mulder choosing each
> > other over all others throughout season 6 and 7. We see it in The
> > Ghosts Who Stole Christmas, in much of the storyline of the Mytharc
> > from from the end of season five to the beginning of season 7 with
> > Mulder choosing Scully over Fowley, in All Things and, again, in
> > Milagro. We also get it in various dialogue moments between the
> > characters or others in that time period. I'm probably forgetting some
> > more specific examples, but the thing is that that point was not a
> > unique one to the show -- more than anything it points to the
> > characters and their relationship going in circles in that period
> > because things had basically reached or were near their crescendo
> > here, as it was from the movie onwards.
>
> But I never minded the MSR going in circles -- at least not in those kinds
> of circles. I never yearned for any sexual or romantic progression. I was
> happy with an episode if it showed the MSR functioning as much as it
> dysfunctioned or -- even better -- functioning because of its dysfunction.
> I was pleased whenever M & S revealed more to each other, but never needed
> them to reveal anything new to me. That's not what I was there for. I
> enjoyed having the things I cherished in their relationship restated and
> reaffirmed.
I think my problem is that it progressed up to that point and really
could or would not go any further for such a long time because the
only place to go, really, was a physical relationship. One got the
feeling at that point taht Carter was trying to play both sides of the
argument -- though the irony always was that the noromos were getting
an inherently romantic show at that point but many didn't realize it
simply because the physical aspect hadn't been overtly shown; in every
other regard, I would argue they got exactly what they had argued
against for so long for full seasons 6&7.
And like I said, I don't think I'd so much have a problem with this if
it was wrapped up and concluded by the end of season 7. I'm sure you
disagree -- seeing as how you like season 8 -- but what makes season 8
such a waste in great amount is that Carter was still playing games
with the relationship. Because of that, hardly anything of meaning is
done with the big story arc of that season, instead only revealing at
the end what most of us knew all along to be the case.
I'll just add, as with most any story, if at some point there's never
any forward progress in any regard it becomes boring. It's basically
sitcom rules at some point. I feel The X-Files for a period treaded
dangerously close to this in some regards, including the relationship.
>
> > How do you know?
>
> I don't know. I don't know what Morgan and Wong would be inclined to do. I
> don't know M & W as well as I know Carter. That's why I consider him the
> lesser of the two evils.
See, the difference between us is simple -- I hate the last two years
and you don't. I didn't know that before. In that context your
argument for Carter makes more sense, though I still question why
you'd dislike what others did with the MSR in earlier seasons so much
while thinking that the repugnant crap Carter pulled -- as you have
already admitted -- was okay. Truly, no offense intended, I don't
understand that in relation to your previous argument of always
wanting a strong and healthy relationship between Mulder and Scully.
>
> > It's a little late to question whether the will is there, as the turn
> > has already been made and the change in the relationship is going to
> > have to be, one assumes, inherently part of the record in any future
> > projects with said characters.
>
> Not if the next movie is just a MOTW.
Why? They're relationship is the same no matter what the type of movie
it is. It must be addressed, and I would assume it would be. It's not
like the relationship as it now is only exists in relation to William
or the Mytharc. It simply is what it is, no matter the type of movie
we get.
>
> > We got that in earlier seasons quite enough, and I think the
> > cofirmation of a physical relationship was needed for resolution
>
> I don't. I think it's rather irrelevant. I don't see how whether Mulder or
> Scully are having sex could alter their commitment to each other in any way.
> You know, I'm the sort of person who thought the bee interrupting the kiss
> in the hall was just fine. The scene told me all I needed or wanted to
> know. So, I'm just not frustrated by the things that frustrate you. Sorry.
And yet you cut out my points against season 8 in this regard, never
addressing them. Season 8 is a prime example of why things needed to
be resolved in this area in my view. The game still being played is
why the relationship is such an odd mess to great degree in season 8,
which is a true waste.
But, oddly, you seem okay with that. If the last scene of Existence
didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8? Like I
said, it appears to me that all that matters to you in this regard was
the destination instead of the bungled journey to that climax -- why
else would you be okay with the tattered mess of a relationship of
season 8 when you argue so strongly about it in regards to others
seasons? I'd appreciate it if you directly answered me on this instead
of cutting this out of your reply.
>
> > If it has nothing to do with anything, why quote it? I notice you left
> > out plenty of the rest of my previous post. Just food for thought.
>
> I quoted it because I found it a rather amusing and childish ploy and just
> thought I'd point out to you how uncompelling such tactics are.
It was an off-hand remark, and your only using the tactics you pretend
I'm trying to use by dragging such a meaningless quote out, while
ignoring so much else of what I've posted, with yet more vacuous and
childish replies in regards to it. It's telling that you choose to
focus on this instead of more substantive issues.
>When you
> can no longer support your point of view, just say that plenty of people
> agree with you to bolster it. I don't really care if no one agrees with
> me -- except the makers of the next movie. I need THEM to agree with me,
> because that way I have more of a chance of getting what I want.
As far as I can tell -- judging by ratings and what happend to the
show -- more agree with me about seasons 8 & 9 and what Carter did
with them than you. The Doggett Files would still be on right now
otherwise.
>
> > I don't see that in an episode like Home for example. Not at all. So
> > I'm not seeing as how this is the only way the two treated the MSR on
> > the show.
>
> I didn't say that this was the only way they treated the MSR. They treated
> it beautifully when the show began. They changed course over the years. I
> have no reason to think that they will change back. Carter vacillates, so
> I'm betting he can be convinced to go with the flow.
Why should I believe that Carter will change back from his last two
years of bullshit any more than you believe Morgan and Wong will turn
around from the work they gave us over the last few years they worked
on the show? Also, Home's a great example of my point because it's one
of the final episodes they made, and it has none of the antagonism you
pretend was all through their work the last couple seasons.
>
>
> >
> > Carter certainly had these elements as well. Or are we forgetting --
> > or striking from the record -- episodes such as One Son, Arcadia and
> > so forth now?
>
> Why do you think that knocking Carter somehow makes M & W look better? It
> doesn't.
I didn't say it makes them look better, but it does show that Carter
himself wasn't any better much of the time by *your* (and that's the
key here) own standard. That's the point.
And you've been doing much the same thing on the other side, so don't
pretend as if you have no idea what the point is.
>It reminds me of the Mulder and Scully wars. I remember saying
> that if I really believed Mulder's brown hair was unattractive, someone
> pointing out that Scully's hair was too red and that she was probably a man
> wouldn't make me like the brown hair more. I think M & W are unpredictable.
> I know CC better, not just because of his own work and the greater bulk of
> it to judge, but because of the work he LET other people do on the show.
> So, I'd trust him more with the next movie. Doesn't mean I think he's
> wonderful. I've complained about him plenty and will probably do so again.
> But I just don't think he's anathema to everything the XF I loved stood for.
You also have no problem with seasons 8 & 9 evidently, which is
telling as to your position. Though I still can't find coherence in
attacking others on the relationship while letting Carter off the
hook.
>
> I didn't particularly like One Son, but if you think that all One Son did
> was focus on the antagonism between Mulder and Scully, then you really look
> at things superficially.
And you've done otherwise with Morgan and Wong? Or is it that they
only did "superficial" work, while Carter's was always fully loaded on
oh so many levels? I'm only using your own standard as far as the
relationship -- I never said I disliked One Son.
>And I really don't know what you mean about
> Arcadia. That episode. . . There wasn't any antagonism between Mulder and
> Scully in it. They were both having a grand old time. Now, I think it was
> kind of a stupid XF, especially when I think of the blooper reel with that
> monster in it. But the MSR was a beautiful, funny thing. When Sculster was
> sitting on that sofa with Mulder's arm around her, she was really starting
> to get into it. My goodness, they were ADORABLE. What are you talking
> about?!
That's the first time I believe anybody referred to Arcadia as
"beautiful". Interesting view.
Scully certainly seemed annoyed and bitchy much of the time in that
episode, with the banter playing much the way one might expect in
certain M&W episodes. I didn't think either hated each other, but I
would think by your M&W standard that you might get that reading as
there definitely were quite a few moments where Scully was less than
pleased with Mulder -- much like, let's say, certain season 3 eps. In
fact, the only thing that makes Arcadia entertaining is watching
Mulder piss off Scully and the rest of the pedantic neighbors therein.
> > How about a great amount of season 8, where the entire
> > show, including a Scully pregnant with Mulder's kid, shows a great
> > deal of hostility towards its missing center? That didn't "hurt"?
>
> Well, it didn't hurt me, because I didn't see the antagonism you're talking
> about. Actually, I thought the last seasons hurt Scully more than it hurt
> the MSR. That's what I resented them for, the Scully stupidity. I didn't
> feel really bad about the MSR. DD was gone. I felt the options were
> limited with what they could do and the MSR fared ok under the dire
> circumstances.
DD wasn't gone for all of season 8 -- he was just wasted, as was the
MSR. I remember even he was pissed about his treatment that last year
in regards to the Mulder character.
>I didn't think Scully forgot about him.
So, what was the point of shoving his nameplate away and so forth? Or
Scully getting criticised for being an irresponsible and bad partner
because she was acting like Mulder early on that season? Or trying to
introduce a love triangle with Doggett, even as it's later revealed
that Mulder and Scully already had taken that next step and she was
pregnant with an Uber-Mulder? Tell, me other than negatives, what were
the points being made in these regards otherwise?
One minute you admit Carter was pissed and had a vendetta gainst DD,
yet you refuse to see how this carried over into the material?
>I think it looked
> like he ran away from his responsibilities, but didn't consider the harm
> irreparable.
It was stupid and underwrittem, like so much of season 9.
>I was disappointed by some things, but except for William
> being given up like that, I wasn't HURT.
I'm very happy about your psychological well-being in this case,
though I find it difficult to understand when considering your other
arguments as far as the MSR and Morgan and Wong.
As for William, that was the biggest storyline for either of the last
two seasons, and even you admit it was botched. The reason it was
botched, was beacuse it was used as a gimmick and then dumped when it
could no longer be used. There was no real plan or idea as far as a
storyline, all it was was a gimmick that started out as and never grew
any deeper than a "Who's the Daddy" arc that unfortunately for Carter
didn't just disappear after the question was answered. Complete and
utter waste, and a sad one because it could have been a great arc if
treated with respect.
Also, Scully and Mulder are two of the worst parents in existence. I'm
sure you think of that as a hurtful comment, but their actions only
back it up.
>NA hurt quite a bit.
Well, it looks like I truly hit one of your hot buttons with that
example of a good episode, huh?
>
> > I never saw anything as overtly malicious from Morgan and Wong as what
> > Carter tried to pull the last couple seasons. Oh, I know, you're not
> > only loking at those seasons -- yes, yes, -- but it certainly would be
> > more intellectually honest if you would look at them directly and
> > admit just how much the guy you want back in his old slot had to do
> > with what was done.
>
> I never said that Carter had nothing to do with it. It's not like I'm
> turning a blind eye and saying it's not his fault. In fact, I'm the one who
> said a lot of what he did was based on his anger at DD. At the time, I
> remember scoffing at the "manly man" interviews he gave, saying I hadn't
> heard anyone talk like that since Laura Ingalls Wilder on Little House on
> the Prairie. I never said CC wasn't responsible for the last Seasons. I
> just said that he's also responsible for the seasons that come before it.
And yet you also defend those last two seasons, and seem to have more
trouble with the superior material that Morgan and Wong gave us in the
earlier years. Does this mean that when looking at M&W eps as opposed
to season 9 eps, you prefer the crap of the last season?
It's weird that you would admit that Carter had a vendetta but can't
acknolwdge the moments it was shown onscreem in season 8. Was the
obvious being revealed -- Mulder being DaDa -- so overpowering that
you don't care about the crap that had previously led up to that? Like
I said, it seems you prefer the destination in this regard over the
journey to get there -- which inherently contradicts your statements
about seasons 6 & 7, I'm afraid.
What you don't seem to realize is that if Carter hadn't been such an
ass you could have had far more MSR in season 8 as well as a good
storyline to go with it, along with the previously great
characteriztaion of the show in the first seven years. All this was
thrown away for pettiness and gimmickry.
> You think I must be in denial because I don't agree with you. But it's
> simpler than that: I just don't agree.
Well up until now, and still to some extent, I believed that because
you would not directly answer specific points in regards to Carter and
his last two seasons.
>
> >
> > What was the cause for the animosity towards Mulder in season 8? Was
> > that okay? Is that to be forgotten now?
>
> Who's forgetting it? What does it have to do with Movie 2?
What does what Morgan and Wong did in season 4 have to do with Movie
2? Your throwing away your own argument that started this entire
debate. Nice job!
I'm sure you'll cut out and ignore the above paragraph.
>
> Your problem is you seem to want to punish CC.
I want to punish him only as much as you want to "punish" Morgan and
Wong. You'd better look in the mirror when making such accusations.
Now you're pretending as if there's no valid reason when looking at
Carter's record to believe that his work on another movie might be
troublesome. All I have to do is watch five minutes of a season 8 or 9
ep to get that message loud and clear.
>If you want him to be cut
> out of the next movie to teach him a lesson, that's fine.
I don't care what lesson he learns, I just don't want to see his crap
take on this material any longer after the last two pathetic attempts
at full seasons he gave us. He blew it far too many times for my taste
to let him handle this material again.
>Envision him
> crying his eyes out, thinking of his baby in someone else's arms (much like
> young William is, with that psycho looking farm family) and get your
> revenge. For my part, I didn't take it that personally.
Sorry, but whan in the hell are you even talking about? I dislike
Carter in regards to The X-Files at this point -- I don't give a crap
about what he does outside that as far as career or personal life. Am
I to assume by your above quote that you would like to see something
similar and "personal" happen to M&W, seeing as how you're inherently
against them on an XF movie as much as I am against Carter? I know
they "hurt" you personally, but evidently the garbage of season 8 & 9
is A-OK.
>I don't want to
> punish him, whether he needs it or not.
It's about putting someone in charge that can get the best results. I
don't believe that's Carter. It has nothing to do with punishment.
> > And why is it that you refuse to judge Carter on seasons 8+9 but have
> > no problem fully judging Morgan and Wong on their last season and half
> > or so even though you talk liking their material in the first two
> > seasons? The two arguments look contradictory I'm afraid.
>
> Because I think Morgan and Wong simply wanted to be different and their
> reasons for changing the direction of the MSR were less pressured, personal
> and reactionary than CC's.
This is not borne out in looking at their material any more than with
Carter's. You're not being balanced by your own standard when looking
at M&W as opposed to Chris -- anything he did wrong you ignore, while
anything they did "right" in your own view you would like to ignore
just as much.
>That's why I think their view was the one least
> likely to change over time, because it was not as based on emotion or
> current events. I think CC's view of the MSR was the one most susceptible
> to changing with the circumstances. He's no longer desperate or angry,
> probably just wistful for the heyday that's past him. So, I think he's in
> the best position to give (or be persuaded into giving) the next movie the
> elements that I want to see.
I think you can find plenty of poeple that wouldn't need to be
"persuaded" to treat that particular relationship and the material as
a whole with the respect it deserves. I don't think Carter is one of
those people.
>
> >
> > I guess in the end it was more about the destination than the journey
> > for you, which would contradict your earlier statements on the
> > relationship but is the only true defense of Carter in regards to the
> > relationship when looking at season 8 & 9.
>
> That's the most illogical thing you've said yet, since you're the one so
> obviously hung up on "destination." You didn't like Mulder and Scully
> running around in circles, rediscovering the same fundamental truths, but I
> was fascinated each time they chose one another again, because every
> interaction taught me something.
No, you're contradicting yourself, not me. My point, that you've tried
to ignore, was that by not resolving the physical aspect of the
relationship before springing the baby idea on the show inherently
hurt the journey because the show became too wrapped up in playing
mind games rather than giving us substance in season 8 in regards to
the pregnancy arc -- in that area, the only way to defend that vacuous
storyline, that was stilted, "hurtful" and disrespectful as far as the
relationshiop and the viewer's IQ, is to only look at the final
destination and not the journey to get there. See how that works? No
contradiction on my part, but there certainly appears to be one on
yours when looking at your arguments for seasons 6 & 7 as opposed to 8
& 9.
Also, you can't really be on any journey whatsoever if you're only
staying in the same place by going in circles. It's an inherent
contradiction.
>If their relationship didn't move farther
> ahead (and I think it did), then I felt it was moving deeper, even while
> standing in place. I relished the depth. She bursts into his motel room in
> The Pilot and he doesn't know what to do. She bursts into his motel in
> Requiem, he pulls her in, takes off her boots, covers her up, spoons her (oh
> there's that beautiful Arcadia again, spooned like two baby kittens). And
> they're in yet another motel room in the series finale, so much closer in
> understanding than they were in The Pilot. That's all the "movement" that I
> ever needed.
And yet this totally circumvents any depth, or actual lack in that
area, in regards to the broad storylines for season 8 and season 9.
You revel in Mulder spooning Scully, yet you can't understand how a
physical relationship being overtly revealed might have been *needed*
for the story? It looks to me as if you were more focused on
individual moments much of the time rather the actual journey, in
actuality. Sometimes these things need to happen for better reasons
than to give certain segments of the audience a warm and fuzzy feeling
-- that's my point as far as season 8 and what should have been known
from the outset, instead of retroactively, about the relationship and
the parentage of the child.
Obviously their relationship grew and changed over the course of the
show -- who denied that at all? But the problem is in regards to the
waste of season 8 & 9 -- which is a big deal to many of us -- just
what was done with that relationship and how not overtly dealing with
Mulder and Scully being in a physical relationship overtly hurt the
show once the pregnancy was revealed. It left gaps that only existed
because Carter was playing games and was himself more concerned with
the destination -- his gotcha -- than the journey to get there.
Because the relationship for season 8 is a screwed up, unfocused mess
precisely because Carter wanted to hold off on revealing that Muldcer
and Scully had done the naked pretzel and that the kid was therefore
Mulder's.
In the end, if you have no problem with season 8 and its treatment of
the relationship and the baby arc, you inherently contradict your
stance that you were always more concerned with the journey of these
two characters rather than their destination -- truthfully, the two
are inherently interlinked when we're talking about quality, and
that's precisely why so much of season 8 is lacking and hurts that
very relationship. But hey, Mulder was revealed as daddy, so who
cares, right?
There's no reason why Mulder should not have been revealed as either
being in a physical relationship with Scully outwardly by the end of
season 7, or that he was the baby's father either then or EARLY in
season 8, other than to play mind games with the audience. Is there
any other explanation for the choices that were made as to WHEN these
facts should be revealed? I can't see one, and as it is we get no
depth out of the storyline at all, but instead only an obvious answer
that could have been resolved and revealed without a full season of
vacuous material between it and the initial question -- that's the
problem with 8, when looking at the pregnancy arc, and Mulder
abduction, it's all filler with only perfunctory answers (hey Mulder's
alive and he's the kid's father, ask NO MORE cuz no substantive
answers are coming).
ColemansLoveChild
Sounds like a pretty bad idea, though it would have the shock effect
they were probably looking for it's the type of shock that either
would be too damaging, as you said, or all too easily glossed over
later. Inherently you would have to believe it would destroy the basis
of the relationship altogether, and I would not know how Mulder with
his paranoia and issues with people he loves/trusts betraying him
would move past that. It would make Scully no better than all the rest
of the people that stabbed Mulder in the back in his life, thus taking
away the point and uniquness of their relationship.
Michele Jackson
"ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b5910f8.04031...@posting.google.com...
>
> And yet so much of your argument isn't just one against Morgan and
> Wong, but a defense of Carter to the point where you don't even want
> to really directly consider his involvement in seasons 8 & 9.
>
No, YOUR argument is an attack upon CC which seems to have very little to do
with Movie 2, which is the only thing I was talking about when I responded
to your note. I'm not defending him and I'm not defending Seasons 7 & 8.
I'm simply saying that those seasons wouldn't make me bar him from the
movie. I'd trust him with it before I'd trust M & W. I have nothing
against them. I find them quite entertaining and if the show was still on
the air, I'd welcome them back into the fold. But the next movie is another
matter. It will probably be the XF's final shot at posterity. When it
comes to that one last chance, I'd rather not trust M & W with it. I'd
trust CC with it before I'd trust them. That doesn't mean that either of
them would fail or that either would succeed. I'm not rooting for him.
That's simply my preference. I just don't hate him, as you seem to. And,
I'm sorry, but your vehemence on the subject seems more than a bit personal.
I can't share it.
I'd be more fearful if Frank and CC were in charge of the movie together,
because I sensed a direct correlation between Frank's growing authority and
the show's decline. But yes, I think he's still capable of doing good,
because I saw good in the last seasons. I saw bad too, so it's a toss up
what we'd get in the movie. The good or the bad. But the movie itself is a
toss up. It might never materialize at all.
>
> So, in conclusion, whether he NEEDS to be there or not you see no
> reason why he shouldn't be.
Given the choices you offered of M & W and CC, I see no reason why CC
shouldn't be there. If the choice were between Vince and CC, then I'd pick
Vince over him.
>
> In my view he was given more than enough chances and blew them all the
> last couple seasons. No more. Whether it's Morgan and Wong or someone
> else, I just don't want anymore Carter -- much the same way you feel
> about Morgan and Wong.
Actually, it's not much the same way I feel about M & W, because there are
people I'd want less than M & W, like David Amann. My guess is there's no
one you'd less rather have than CC.
>
> I'm saying that by your standard for Morgan and Wong, Carter did alot
> worse the last two seasons yet you refuse to judge him on his material
I already did judge him on the last Seasons of the series. Each and every
Sunday night I came on here and judged him. I simply don't think the
mistakes of the last season mean I'd rather have M & W write the next movie
than him.
> in that area while you judge them fully on the material from their
> last couple seasons which you dislike. It's not coherent.
"It's not coherent," means that you don't agree. I prefer CC when he was
good to M & W when they were good. I preferred CC when he was bad to M & W
when they were bad. That's all. I prefer his style over theirs, if I had
to do a tally. Of course, CC has an edge because I have more of his work to
consider. He's more of a known quality to me. They are not as predictable.
LGM is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series, but overall, I
weigh in favor of CC. I'm more the PMP type than the Humbug type.
> I know you said they did good work the first two
> years, but you don't consider that as part of their record in your
> argument, just as you refuse to consider Carter's disgusting material
> from the last two years when looking at him. I have a problem with
> that.
I do consider it, but CC's good work outweighs theirs in my mind.
>
> That's nice. Most of the fanbase disliked it -- and I'm sorry, but
> that matters to any viability here as far as movies.
Well then maybe whoever is doing the movie will consider the fact that you
hated Doggett and act accordingly. It doesn't make any difference to my
viewpoint that you did.
> How somebody could accuse M&W of mistreating the MSR while defending
> something like season 8's BS I have no idea.
I'm not defending Season 8; I just don't despise it as you do. And the fact
that you deemed it a horrible season doesn't mean that M & W didn't mistreat
the MSR. You act as if one thing proves another. It doesn't.
>
> But it wasn't only about Scully, but actually her relationship with
> Mulder. You can dislike what it said, but it's entire point would
> cease in terms of a flashback.
It wasn't about Scully's relationship with Mulder. It just pretended to be.
In NA, Scully was reacting to Mulder as if he was Jack Willis or Daniel and
she was the girl she had been in the past. The only way the show COULD work
would be in flashback, because it wasn't dealing with present day
characters. Unless, they wanted to tell us that Mulder was a shapeshifter
and THAT's why she was reacting to him like he was one of the father figures
she had known before. From Darkness Falls on we've seen Scully confront
Mulder about the way he makes decisions for both of them, without telling
her, even when her life or death is at risk. She was scared then, but not
too scared to tell him he was out of line. Vulnerable enough to panic and
demand that he get the mites off of her, as she flailed and hit the light
bulb, but even in fear, not hesitant to call him on it when he unilaterally
takes power and decisions away. That early on, the dynamic was established.
NA took Scully backwards to a place she may have been in her past, but not
to a place she'd been with Mulder, with regard to repressing her objections
to his "authority." She didn't repress. She ceded power to him, but always
knew how to take it back and let him know when he'd stepped to far. And,
Mulder was always very quick to release the reins when she DID stand up to
him. The FTF kiss and the Per Magnum scenes were always very symbolic to
me, because of the quick way Mulder takes his hands away both times. That's
the way he was throughout the relationship. The minute he sensed an
objection from her, he backed off. Retreated. She didn't need to rebel
against him -- against her feelings and fears yes, but not against Mulder.
>
> So, it's not okay for Scully to get pissed and do something a bit out
> of character in NA, but it is okay for her to forget about Mulder and
> shove his nameplate away while he's missing in season 8, even though
> she was in a much more stable place with him at that point and even
> was pregnant with his offspring? *That's* in-character? Okey dokey.
Well, your use of perjorative terms doesn't make the description of events
true. She did not forget about Mulder. Furthermore, there were plenty of
things that I did not find "ok" about Season 8. It had 19 episodes and I'm
not going to sit here and critique them all, because I did that back when
they aired. Moreover, you're irrational, so the effort would be wasted.
The mere fact that you leaped to the unfounded conclusion that I loved the
end of the series just because Mulder ended up being the baby's father
establishes your blindness, against anyone who doesn't share your apparent
hatred for CC. I never cared whether Mulder was the kid's dad or not. It
mattered as much to me as whether or not he was Emily's father. I thought
"the truth we both know" kiss was hysterical and in fact argued AGAINST
people who claimed that that proved Mulder was the father, saying that it
was subject to interpretation, as so many things on the show were.
I didn't like what the pregnancy did to Scully's character at all.
Thinking of the depersonification of Scully during Essence, I was struck at
just how deliberate it was. Scully was referred to as "she" and "her" more
in the last 4 episodes than in any 4 seasons of TXF combined. 1013 pays too
much attention to words for this to happen by accident. Look at how Mulder
and Scully call each other that, but when they refer to each other in the
presence of third parties, they always say "Agent Scully" or "Agent Mulder,"
to convey to that third person the professional esteem and respect they have
for their partner. They do this, even when it's personal. In Avatar, Mulder
and Scully were trying to help Skinner as a friend, as much as their boss.
When Skinner nervously asks Mulder what Scully thinks Mulder chooses his
words carefully, "Agent Scully believes . . .." In Biogenesis, Scully looks
at Mulder on that monitor and hears how they have been pumping him with
drugs and she is very careful to stress that he is a man. This is not some
animal or thing they've got locked up in a rubber room. They always choose
nouns and pronouns selectively, so we haven't just been dealing with
careless writing on that score in these last shows. They purposely meant for
Scully to be an inanimate object through certain sequences. It's never so
clear that she's a "vessel" or thing, rather than the individual we've
always known than in the last 10 minutes of alone. Doggett's on the phone,
"Mulder! Skinner! Billy's in the garage; get back in the elevator." He
doesn't mention Scully. Mulder hands Scully to Krycek and says "protect
her." From that point on, until Scully is placed in the car, she never walks
alone and - just as significant, she never speaks. She is passed around like
the baton in a relay race. Krycek puts his hands on her and leads her
downstairs. Doggett meets them at the elevator and he takes Scully from
Krycek, also putting his hands on her. Monica gets out of the car and comes
over and taking Scully from Doggett puts her in the car. Once inside, Scully
begins to act like a human being again and puts on her own seatbelt, but I
wouldn't have been surprised if Reyes had done that too (as Maggie put on
Scully's coat in the hospital). Now, I realize that people DO go out of
their way to assist pregnant women in real life. People help you up and help
you down, fetch and carry for you, but I think the XF was going for more
than that. For whatever reason, they WANTED to objectivify and
de-individualize a character that is usually, well, "more human than human."
I had big problems with the last seasons, but they didn't leave me bitter to
the point where I go ballistic at the mention of CC's name.
As for the "Patience," the nameplate is especially unimportant when you
consider the type of person that Mulder was. Did he place value on that sort
of thing? Was he part of that world? Was he into status and career and
advancement? Not at all. I don't say that part of him didn't regret the
place and respect he didn't have. I think talking with the cop in X-Cops, we
get a glimpse of that wistful side of Mulder. Sometimes, it's not always fun
or fair to be "Spooky." But it was his lot and it's the one he accepted and
when given the chance to follow the traditional path and win kudos or to
take the extreme path and be ridiculed, he always chose the extreme. He
always rejected the official. The official word, the official people, the
official trappings. I think they specifically chose a symbol that would NOT
represent Mulder to take off of his desk, so that the essence of the man
remained. Notice, it's not the poster that was removed. It would have been
more personal, more Mulder, even if Scully had removed pencils from the
ceiling, especially after Chinga. I'm sure it would mean a lot to an Up and
Comer like Tom Colton was when we saw him (he's probably an A.D. by now), to
have someone remove his nameplate. That's not who Mulder was, not when we
met him and not when he left us. There are things that matter a lot to me at
work, but Mulder's sensibilities were not what mine are and that's not the
kind of thing he cared about. Scully was the person more prone to think that
you express your feelings through THINGS. If she had a nameplate and Mulder
removed it, I can see her being hurt and Mulder shocked that she could think
that everything (even the smallest thing) he felt for her could be embodied
in a nameplate. She'd be the one wanting her nameplate on the desk for
Mulder, Diana and outsiders to see, as proof that she was part of the XF and
he'd be thinking it was some strange, fastidious quirk of hers, like he did
when she threw the shirt back at him in Arcadia, because it's Scully that
more easily buys into (or at least is conscious of it, she can and does walk
away from it) the world where nameplates matter. The nameplate was what she
was putting away in the beginning when Doggett came in and she reminded him
that it was her partner's office. The sequence of events that followed told
me that she didn't think that the nameplate represented Mulder or his
territory. A nameplate means something to be sure, but did it mean something
to Mulder, the Mulder that Scully and the audience knew? That would seem to
be the question. Over the years, there was much talk about the cross; if we
compare what the cross is to Scully to what the nameplate is to Mulder, it
becomes clear that the nameplate is secular. I think 1013 chose it, because
it symbolized all of the official, bureaucratic things that Mulder did NOT
represent, so by putting it away Scully showed that she was towing the
professional line where she and Doggett were concerned, but drawing the
personal line.
If Doggett hadn't been there, she have left the nameplate out, because
that's where her heart was. However, she realized she was working with a guy
who was doing his job and showing her respect and she came to feel it would
be petty not to give him the professional courtesy he deserved, just because
she missed Mulder. I think she just realized it was not Doggett's fault that
he was gone. She remembered how she felt about not having a desk thanks to
your beloved NA. Mulder didn't mean to disparage her role. What's more, if
she'd really wanted a desk she could have ordered one from requisition like
Doggett could. However, Mulder not thinking about it himself made her feel
that he thought she was inferior and I think she just decided she wouldn't
make Doggett feel that way. He was ok out in the field. He might not deserve
any perks, but he's entitled to the basics. She's not Mulder, but she's not
Dana Scully, the new special agent either. She remembers clearly how it felt
to be the latter and she's beginning to see what it felt like to be the
former, as the locals lash out at your crazy theories. She's somewhere in
the middle, seeing why Mulder used to get frustrated like he did and seeing
herself in Doggett, as he helped execute her exhumation instructions, even
though he didn't believe in her theories. That's what she would have done
for Mulder. She knew how Doggett must have felt because she knew how SHE has
felt in the same situation. So, in saying he could have a desk and taking
the nameplate away, (not because she'd put Mulder aside but because she
didn't want Doggett to feel like he was outsider on the cases that he was
working on just as hard as she was) she did something for him that she
remembers she would have wanted done for her when she was where he was then.
I loved seeing her find her balance on the middle ground she was treading at
that time.
> But that could very well be the point. She goes out with another guy
> because of her problems with Mulder -- if you take that out of the
> episode you're left with something pretty vacuous in my view, and
> something that does far less service for the characters present.
It WAS pretty vacuous in my view. That's the problem.
>
> As I said, in my opinion it was a relationship episode at its base.
And in my view it was a misshapen Scully episode masquerading as a
relationship episode.
>It
> wasn't pretty, but that's what you see examined within its confines.
> And when you're doing a long-running, serialized show, not every
> episode has to show the best side of the cahracters or their
> relationship,
There are plenty of episodes that don't show the best side of the character
(Paper Heart) or their relationship (Bad Blood comes to mind), but they
aren't insulting to me.
> So? I don't see why Scully can't be flawed, or a little screwed up.
> Mulder was alot screwed up and nobody really had a problem with that.
> I don't see why Scully always has to be the dominating presence or
> "strong" either.
I never said that Scully had to be strong. There are many episodes where
she's not strong at all (BTS, Gender Bender, Milagro, Wetwired, etc.) that
are not insulting to me.
> And somebody could probably just as easily make the argument of Scully
> being out of character in an episode like All Things. In quite a few
> regards. At least as far as following who we knew her as up until that
> episode. I can see how you could argue either side myself.
I think the fact that All Things DID bring up someone from her past and
contrast that relationship to hers with Mulder made it work better than NA
did. NA had her responding to relationships with father figures and then
grafted her past problems in those relationships ONTO Mulder and that's why
I didn't buy it. Furthermore, All Things did not pretend to be about Mulder
when it wasn't.
When I first saw "All Things," I thought Scully's attitude was a lot like
Never Again. The one mitigating factor was that she called Mulder back into
the room as he was leaving and asked him if he ever wanted to stop moving.
This saved things a bit for me, because he was leaving in a huff ("thank you
for lunch" without having finished it) and she called him back and asked him
if he ever wanted to stop moving and even though her tone was not apologetic
when she called after him, I think there was a bit of apology in the
gesture. He was leaving personally offended and her question kind of made it
clearer that her objections were not about him, it was about being too busy
to live life in general. I logged on here and said she was acting a lot like
"Never Again" and "Syzygy" and I thought Unbound made a nice distinction by
saying not really, because her fight was not with Mulder ("you didn't get me
a desk!") in this episode. In "All Things," she was raging against herself
and her own restlessness. She was irritable and it expressed itself in
exasperation with Mulder, but it really wasn't about Mulder. She wasn't
blaming or accusing him and I can deal with her being waspish and impatient
just because she was in a bad mood, if she wasn't faulting him for her own
problems as she was in NA.
So, Scully's unrest was not really about Mulder, yet "All Things" did
address the MSR as a whole, while the only realistic MSR element in NA was
Mulder himself. In "All Things" Mulder and Scully were at CHARACTERISTIC
cross purposes. Mulder's feelings WERE hurt and I felt for him in "All
Things." However, his feelings were not hurt because Scully scorned crop
circles. His feelings were hurt because he translated her comments as her
not wanting to be with him. Now, his feelings were hurt for the same reason
in FTF and Scully's not really the cause of this kind of hurt. It's the MSR.
It's a mutual problem that M & S have of not being able to show their love
for each other outside of work (which is why Scully's feelings were hurt in
"The End," if she's not his favorite, exclusive partner, then he must not
like her personally). If Scully says that she is leaving the FBI, Mulder
hears that she is leaving him, "You were right to want to leave me," he says
in FTF. It's not about a job. It's not about Utah. It's about him. Mulder
thinks that if she is working on a case with him, she loves him and if she's
not and she won't, then he begins to feel that she doesn't love him. Mulder
wasn't all that interested in the corn circles, crop rings, who-knows-what,
himself. This is evidenced when he gets back to town and is so cavalier
about the fact that nothing happened in England. He's not even that
interested in talking about it anymore. He wanted to be with Scully, just
like he wanted to be with her in HTGSC. In that episode, if Scully had gone
on and on about how silly ghosts were (and she did), he wasn't going to get
his feelings hurt, because the ghosts weren't important to him either. What
was important was that Scully might like working with him, but might prefer
to spend her Saturdays and holidays with someone else. That made him feel
lonely, that awareness that he might be her FBI partner, but he was not her
family. Well, in the end of HTGSC, we saw that he IS her family and hey,
maybe she does prefer to be with him Christmas Eve, Saturdays, and on her
personal time, after all.
I really minded that Mulder's feelings were hurt in "All Things," and it was
important to me that Scully not exacerbate his pain. He asks her to pick up
that stuff from Colleen and it just got on my nerves that she couldn't say,
yes, she would. Instead she has to say, "I'll see what I can do for you,"
not making any promises. That just infuriated me, because she was being
deliberately annoying. How much time would it take for her to stop by and
pick up the stuff and to tell Mulder that she would, rather than leaving him
blowing in the wind, for sport? So, yes I think she was being needlessly
irksome there (as Mulder is, even when he's sleeping) and if she hadn't gone
over there for Mulder, I would have wished worse things on her than a near
auto collision. However, the reason I cared so much was because I knew
Mulder was calling her to make emotional contact, NOT because he was
interested in the literature that much. They were at odds. He didn't know
why and he was trying to feel her out and to get things back on track on a
personal level. I needed her to meet him halfway. I needed it more because
she wouldn't meet him even 1/10 of the way in NA. I knew he was making a
personal overture to her, but I don't think Scully knew this. So, I don't
really blame her for Mulder's hurt feelings. For all she knew, Mulder just
wanted some crop circle research and he could have sent an FBI courier over
to pick it up instead of her. So, if she had let him down and not gotten the
stuff from Colleen, I don't think she would have realized that she was
hurting him on a personal level and that would not have been just her fault.
They don't understand each other. They're scared to put their hearts on the
line. So, she can't say, "I'm jealous of Diana, because she's a woman you
were once involved with and I see her as a rival," and he can't say, "I want
to go to England with you, because I want us to spend time away from the
bureau together." They can't say (or even admit internally) what they really
feel, so if they misunderstand each other, I don't think either the person
who misunderstood or the person who was misunderstood is completely at
fault.
In NA, Mulder's words go unfinished. In One Son, Mulder and Scully reunite,
shooting at the train. I think they reunite emotionally too, but it's
unspoken. In "All Things," it's verbal. She says what she would have missed
if she'd spent her life with Daniel (Mulder being the top thing on the
Potentially Missed List) and he lovingly covers her with a blanket. In the
end, it's not about crop circles or the FBI at all. They interact on a
personal, non-work level for a change and it's clear both to the audience
AND to Mulder (which was not the case in NA) that whatever her problem was,
it certainly was not with him. No, she didn't want to go to England to study
crop circles, but she DID want to be with him, was relieved that he was home
early unexpectedly, DID want to be in his apartment, making him tea and
talking with him way into the night. He knew this and if they were at odds
earlier in the show, the problem is resolved in a more direct (as opposed to
the indirect way we usually get where they both admit they want to work
together, but don't acknowledge they just want to be together as friends, or
more), complete and satisfying way than I've ever seen their friction dealt
with in any other episode.
>
> Which also points to manipulation. Does that really seem like a strong
> character that doesn't question her place? Looks like many of the same
> insecurities were present to some extent in Milagro.
Yes. Milagro and NA are riddled with similarities. That's why I said I
thought Milagro was NA done right in the first place.
> I think my problem is that it progressed up to that point and really
> could or would not go any further for such a long time because the
> only place to go, really, was a physical relationship.
But why go to a physical relationship? What would that have ADDED? I'm not
saying that they should have refrained from an overt physical relationship,
but what would it have added one way or the other? How would that have
deepened the MSR?
> And like I said, I don't think I'd so much have a problem with this if
> it was wrapped up and concluded by the end of season 7. I'm sure you
> disagree -- seeing as how you like season 8 -- but what makes season 8
Season 8 was not my favorite season of the show, but it did not make me want
to crucify anyone.
>I don't
> understand that in relation to your previous argument of always
> wanting a strong and healthy relationship between Mulder and Scully.
>
I never said that I always wanted a strong and healthy relationship between
Mulder and Scully. In fact, I said it's sometimes even better when we see
them functioning through their dysfunction.
The thing is, a lot of Season 8 is nebulous. You are left to read meaning
into it (nothing new on TXF). Often, where you read a negative meaning into
it, I don't. I wasn't with Scully every moment of every day. I don't know
how she might have missed Mulder in private, so I assume she did and
something like Per Magnum helps me to make that assumption. I can read what
I want into the offscreen scenes. Now, we were talking about Agua Mala on
here a few weeks ago. I saw Scully onscreen with my own two eyes not
worrying about Mulder while she delivered a baby. That got on my nerves.
When it comes to things I don't see, I'm like a camel who can live off of my
MSR reserves. I don't need to be told that Scully is still missing Mulder,
based on the strength of the relationship I SAW for 7 years, I won't believe
that it has been destroyed or forgotten based on things I DON'T see. I
don't need to view her missing Mulder, to know that she does. Taking that
approach, I just can't think the MSR was as ruined in the last seasons as
you do. I'm not going to read bad things into the subtext, just because I'm
disappointed by the script's omissions. As I said before, something like
Dreamland II bothers me, because I SAW them saying goodbye forever to each
other in the headlights. In FTF I HEARD Scully tell Mulder she was thinking
of accepting a job in Utah without saying goodbye to him (what?!) When I see
it happen onscreen, I mind. When it doesn't happen on screen, I don't
imagine the worst. Scully was stupid at the end of the series (like leaving
the baby out in the living room to be kidnapped and molested by all and
sundry), but I didn't see her not loving Mulder.
> Why? They're relationship is the same no matter what the type of movie
> it is. It must be addressed, and I would assume it would be. It's not
> like the relationship as it now is only exists in relation to William
> or the Mytharc. It simply is what it is, no matter the type of movie
> we get.
I'd like it to address William though. One thing that made me think he
would be revisited was the stagey behavior of the farm family. From
everything we know on this show about people who conduct themselves in such
a preternaturally wholesome fashion, they must be cult members of some form.
I mean they were practically "Roadrunner" type of people. That just means
that William will be endangered and his parents might have to rescue him in
the movie, proving how stupid it was to send him away in the first place.
What I'd rather learn is that Scully did not send him out to be adopted as
it appears and that we have somehow been fooled. Of course, we heard private
conversations between the couple and if this is a scam, they don't know
about it, aren't part of it, which leaves me a bit pessimistic on that
score. But I want to see a William reference in the movie.
> And yet you cut out my points against season 8 in this regard, never
> addressing them.
What is your point about Season 8? That you hated it? Big deal. That's not
something I care to address. I wasn't in love with Season 8 and 9 but that
doesn't stop me from preferring to trust CC with a movie over M & W. As I
said, if this was Star Trek or something and there were going to be 3 movies
and we knew it, I'd be more than happy to let them write one. But if
there's only one more shot, I trust him more than them, even considering
Seasons 8 & 9. My trust may well be misplaced. I'm not professing complete
faith in the man. I said it was a gamble in my initial posts. It is. If
he gave me a movie like "Roadrunner" with Scully spread-eagled on a bed,
being carried by Doggett, etc., I'd be incensed. But I feel that CC or M &
W, it's a risk either way and I'll play russian roulette with the the former
before the latter.
> If the last scene of Existence
> didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8?
The last scene in Existence did nothing for me either way. Since I never
mentioned it before this post, I'm perplexed as to why you keep throwing it
up in my face? Do you just assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you
is an Existence-lover -- or a Nazi?
> It was an off-hand remark, and your only using the tactics you pretend
> I'm trying to use by dragging such a meaningless quote out, while
> ignoring so much else of what I've posted, with yet more vacuous and
> childish replies in regards to it. It's telling that you choose to
> focus on this instead of more substantive issues.
It is substantive to me because it gives me insight into the "everyone
agrees with me" way you think and helps me analyze the motives underlying
your curious adamence on the CC subject. I ignored other portions of your
post that weren't as important in explaining where you're coming from.
>
> As far as I can tell -- judging by ratings and what happend to the
> show -- more agree with me about seasons 8 & 9 and what Carter did
> with them than you. The Doggett Files would still be on right now
> otherwise.
If people agreed with me, the show wouldn't be on, because I wanted it off
and wished Gillian could have left earlier. If she had, I would have. The
show retained interesting elements for me. For instance, I didn't think
even Badlaa was all that horrible, no matter what it sounded like on paper
("butt Genie"). I thought parts of it were quite good, but I watched it
through a glass darkly, from a distance. I could appreciate the good
elements objectively, without feeling involved as I had in the previous
years. I wasn't in love any longer, but I didn't become irreversibly
bittered like a woman scorned either.
But for Gillian and DD's return appearances, I wouldn't have continued
watching. But that really has nothing to do with the point at hand, which
is Movie 2. This exchange didn't start as an analysis of Seasons 8 - 9 at
all. You believe that the person behind Seasons 8 - 9 should never be
trusted again. If I only had Seasons 8 - 9 to judge him on, I might agree.
But I have much more. On balance, the body of work CC gave me and allowed
others (including M & W) to give me prompted me to say I would trust him
with Movie 2, before M & W. It didn't make me say Seasons 8 - 9 were great,
that Doggett was a God or anything along those lines.
> Why should I believe that Carter will change back from his last two
> years of bullshit any more than you believe Morgan and Wong will turn
> around from the work they gave us over the last few years they worked
> on the show? Also, Home's a great example of my point because it's one
> of the final episodes they made, and it has none of the antagonism you
> pretend was all through their work the last couple seasons.
I don't pretend that antagonism threaded through ALL of their work. I just
didn't like their work that much anymore and didn't like the direction that
they wanted to take the MSR in. I don't NOT believe they'd be willing to
revert to what they were in the first 1.5 years of the show. I just don't
know if they will one way or another. If they gave a press conference
saying that they intend to, maybe I'd change my mind. Given the
uncertainties, I'd trust them over Carter. You'd like to make it seem like
I have some kind of vendetta against M & W to place my opinion on the same
personal level as your animosity for CC, but I just can't feel that strongly
against them, as you would like me to do, to prove your point.
Home has no antagonism, but Mulder was removed from Scully in the bench
scene and I didn't like it, just as I loved (as humor), but was made uneasy
by, his attitude in WOTC. In Home when Mulder suggested Scully only had to
find a guy who did not mind being second-guessed, I think there was a little
voice in her head telling her that at this point in time, there was no other
guy she could find who would embody those things she'd come to look for most
in a partner. She had that look in her eye, but he didn't and their bond
seemed less deep than I would have liked because of that. But it's a fun
show. I mean just his reaction to her Bah-Ram-U attempts at herding was
great enough to recommend the episode, but the incest, legless, armless
mother under the bed and in the car trunk type of humor is not something I
want to see in Movie 2, when I could have something closer to FTF in its
place.
>
> And you've been doing much the same thing on the other side, so don't
> pretend as if you have no idea what the point is.
>
I never knocked M & W, much less knocked them to try to make Carter look
better. So, no I don't know what your point is in telling me how awful he
is, it's not going to make me want them to write the next movie instead.
They could both be equally awful, but awful in different ways, Viva La
Difference!
> You also have no problem with seasons 8 & 9 evidently, which is
> telling as to your position. Though I still can't find coherence in
> attacking others on the relationship while letting Carter off the
> hook.
>
I didn't attack them. I said that if I had to choose, I'd want him instead
of them. The fact that you consider an opinion that diverges from your own
an "attack" is significant. I'm not the one raging about what they
destroyed and how they should never be trusted with anything again, blah
blah blah. I can't hate them like you do CC. In fact, if the series
returned, I'd be happy to have them write 1/3 of all the new episodes.
>
> Scully certainly seemed annoyed and bitchy much of the time in that
> episode, with the banter playing much the way one might expect in
> certain M&W episodes. I didn't think either hated each other, but I
> would think by your M&W standard that you might get that reading as
> there definitely were quite a few moments where Scully was less than
> pleased with Mulder -- much like, let's say, certain season 3 eps. In
> fact, the only thing that makes Arcadia entertaining is watching
> Mulder piss off Scully and the rest of the pedantic neighbors therein.
>
If the only thing wrong with NA was that Scully "was less than pleased with
Mulder," I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. As far as I could see,
Scully was delightful in Arcadia, most of the time. Thank goodness she
wasn't the NA Scully though, because if she had been she would have had to
run off and join a cult because Mulder said, "Make me a sandwich woman!"
Furthermore, Scully wasn't even annoyed with Mulder in Arcadia. She might
have been nervous about her own reactions to him because she was inviting
the Laura Petry stuff, but then pulling back when she realized how much fun
it was or how she, perhaps, wished Mulder wasn't joking when he asked her to
join him on the bed. Ummm, what she was feeling when she ordered him out of
the room -- I don't think it was annoyance. She liked playing house and, if
she was annoyed, was annoyed at HERSELF for liking it.
I think you don't hear anyone describing Arcadia as "beautiful" because of
the stupid garbage monster, but I thought the MSR was rather outstanding. I
especially liked when she answered the door and walked in with the box in
her arms saying, "Mulder, Mulder." He doesn't answer her, as he's up on the
ladder looking at the light fixture. But why is she saying Mulder anyway?
What can he tell her about the neighbors? He just got there himself. The
way she looks to him for explanations senselessly, says his name without
necessity . . . And he knows it too, because he doesn't respond. Knows she
really doesn't need an answer. So, that's the way they interact when
they're going about normal business, but they react the same way in the end
when she's in the closet. They call out to each other, without really
speaking TO one another, finding power and affirmation in each other's names
alone, which is again what happens in the FTF corn field scene.
Yes, there was a certain awkwardness in Arcadia, but I think it was there
because Mulder wasn't "teasing" in the sense that he usually is and neither
was she. In Rain King and Arcadia, I saw a stiffness in Scully because it
wasn't all a joke anymore. I think there was a closing of professional
distance between them and that they were both circling trying to find their
footing in the new, not-so-platonic bond that was developing.
> One minute you admit Carter was pissed and had a vendetta gainst DD,
> yet you refuse to see how this carried over into the material?
I didn't say it didn't carry over into the material. I could tell that
before Season 8 started, by seeing Mulder in the torture chair in the
television commercials. However, the fact that CC was mad at DD didn't make
me think that Scully forgot about Mulder. I was able to separate what went
on onscreen from what went on offscreen and evaluated the 2 separately. The
nameplate had a different meaning for me.
> As for William, that was the biggest storyline for either of the last
> two seasons, and even you admit it was botched.
I don't have to "admit" it was botched. I don't have a personal stake in
Season 8 and never lauded the baby plot or the season. I just wasn't as
destroyed by it as you were.
> Also, Scully and Mulder are two of the worst parents in existence. I'm
> sure you think of that as a hurtful comment, but their actions only
> back it up.
I didn't see Mulder being a parent at all and suppose there could be a valid
reason for him being away as he was in Season 9. As far as Scully being a
bad parent goes, I said the same thing myself many times. I didn't know why
she didn't spare her poor mother a beating and just leave William on the
doorstep so anyone who wanted him could take him, since she wasn't
protecting him at all herself. And I remember thinking that if I were
William, I'd be doing a heck of a lot more than just mentally moving my
mobile. His mom totally ignores him when he cried. I'm not one of those
people who thinks that babies should be picked up immediately all the time,
but when you're standing right over the crib and they're yelling their fool
heads off . . . Scully just stared at him.
But um, what's your point. That Season 8 was bad. You hate it. You made a
Season 8 voo doo doll and still stick pins in it? Good for you. If the
entire XF had been like Season 8, it wouldn't have lasted until Season 8.
If the entire XF had been like Season 8, we wouldn't be contemplating a
second movie. But the entire XF was not like Season 8, so if there's a
second movie, I'd trust CC with it before I'd trust M & W -- which is not to
say I hate them. I don't have voo doo dolls myself. And I don't think them
talentless either. They are extremely talented, but in a quirky way that
tends to put me off almost as much as it draws me in.
>
> Well, it looks like I truly hit one of your hot buttons with that
> example of a good episode, huh?
No. I had nothing to say about NA at all when you first brought it up, but
then you kept insisting I address it, so I did. I only wish it had been
more than good episode. I wish it had been a good XF episode.
> What does what Morgan and Wong did in season 4 have to do with Movie
> 2? Your throwing away your own argument that started this entire
> debate. Nice job!
No you started the entire debate because you can't bear to have someone
disagree with you. M & W are not my favorite XF writers. They were ok (and
in places superlative) in the first season and ok in part of the second
season, but overall their view of the MSR does not jive with my own. And
that was probably true even when Scully brought Mulder a root beer instead
of iced tea, it just wasn't as obvious as it later came to be. Maybe M & W
have changed, you say. I don't know that they have. Maybe CC can change, I
say. He has before. It depends on who he works with. On balance, looking
at all of the hits and the misses, CC fits my tastes better. You don't like
to hear that and I'm sorry that he disappointed you so much, but I just
can't feel the venom. I don't ban him for life, the way you do. But then
again, I wouldn't ban M & W for life either. Michele
ColemansLoveChild
> "ColemansLoveChild" <ChrisCar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1b5910f8.04031...@posting.google.com...
>
> >
> > And yet so much of your argument isn't just one against Morgan and
> > Wong, but a defense of Carter to the point where you don't even want
> > to really directly consider his involvement in seasons 8 & 9.
> >
>
>
> No, YOUR argument is an attack upon CC which seems to have very little to do
> with Movie 2,
It has as much to do with the second XF as your statements about M&W's
work does. Don't try and pretend otherwise, as that was the basis for
this entire discussion.
>which is the only thing I was talking about when I responded
> to your note.
No, as anybody can see when looking back, your intial reply was about
Morgan and Wong and how you didn't trust them. Either you have a bad
memory or you're lying. Either way, what you're saying above is
untrue.
As far my points on Carter, they have just as much to do with Movie 2
as your comments on Morgan and Wong do on the other side.
>I'm not defending him and I'm not defending Seasons 7 & 8.
You have been defending him -- if you weren't, we wouldn't be arguing
about his viability for a second movie at all here (duh) -- and many
times have been avoiding the direct issue of seasons 8 & 9.
> I'm simply saying that those seasons wouldn't make me bar him from the
> movie.
Yes. Many times you either ignore his involvement with those seasons
or, more recently, have been saying you actually like them. Inherently
you have been defending Carter and his record throughout this debate,
otherwise our only argument as far as creative teams would involve
Morgan and Wong. It's very simple, and I have no idea why you now wish
to pretend that you're not defending him and the material he was
responsible for when you clearly have been throughout our exchanges,
as anyone who has read your messages could see.
>I'd trust him with it before I'd trust M & W.
As you've said many times before. We disagree. That's why we've been
having this discussion. It is not complicated.
>I have nothing against them.
In the context of XF material, you have made it clear that you do, I'm
afraid. Just as I have something against Carter in regards to much of
his last couple years of material, so too do you with them on the
other side. That's been the basis of this debate of ours all along.
>I find them quite entertaining and if the show was still on
> the air, I'd welcome them back into the fold. But the next movie is another
> matter. It will probably be the XF's final shot at posterity. When it
> comes to that one last chance, I'd rather not trust M & W with it. I'd
> trust CC with it before I'd trust them.
How many times must you repeat yourself in one paragraph?
>That doesn't mean that either of
> them would fail or that either would succeed. I'm not rooting for him.
> That's simply my preference.
And my preference is Morgan and Wong. Within that context, you have
been defending Carter and his material -- as I said above and you
disengenuously tried to deny. Semantically, you're not going to win
this one. Nor logically. You obviously have been defending him.
>I just don't hate him, as you seem to. And,
> I'm sorry, but your vehemence on the subject seems more than a bit personal.
> I can't share it.
What are you talking about? I already explained that I don't hate him
personally, but dislike what he did with the show -- and,
conveniently, you again choose to ignore one of my explanations on a
subject only to then repeat your previous spiel again. Now you're just
being dishonest as to my statements here, which is pathetic.
I'm no more vehement than you are on the other side about Morgan and
Wong, where you want so far as to personalize your dislike for some of
their material by saying they "hurt" you. Nothing like being
hypocritical -- if my dislike for Carter is vehement and personal,
then so too is yours for Morgan and Wong. Your holier than thou act is
laughable.
>
> I'd be more fearful if Frank and CC were in charge of the movie together,
> because I sensed a direct correlation between Frank's growing authority and
> the show's decline. But yes, I think he's still capable of doing good,
> because I saw good in the last seasons.
That's nice, but for the most part I did not. And that's why I don't
think he should do it, with or without yes-man by his side.
> >
> > In my view he was given more than enough chances and blew them all the
> > last couple seasons. No more. Whether it's Morgan and Wong or someone
> > else, I just don't want anymore Carter -- much the same way you feel
> > about Morgan and Wong.
>
> Actually, it's not much the same way I feel about M & W, because there are
> people I'd want less than M & W, like David Amann. My guess is there's no
> one you'd less rather have than CC.
I don't want him on the movie. There's no comparitive basis as far as
other people that I would dislike more in such a position -- it's an
issue that stands on it's own, as I dislike what he did to derail the
franchise and the show. It's thanks to him there may never even be
more movies.
In the end I don't want him, no. That doesn't mean out of ANYBODY he'd
be my LAST choice, but I'm sure you'll believe otherwise, or try and
argue that at least, since you so often can't be bothered to even
honestly take into account what my opinions are here after I've
explained them -- instead, you just cut much of it away and repeat
what you want to. As you have most recently with the Carter issue and
my supposed -- but denied on more than one occasion by me -- "personal
hatred" for Carter. Just because I don't like his material on the XF
over the last few seasons does not mean I want him to suffer in his
personal life outside of anything XF related -- I just don't want him
to be in charge or significantly involved with the XF franchsie any
longer as I believe he's the source of a great deal if not most of the
problems.
>
> >
> > I'm saying that by your standard for Morgan and Wong, Carter did alot
> > worse the last two seasons yet you refuse to judge him on his material
>
> I already did judge him on the last Seasons of the series. Each and every
> Sunday night I came on here and judged him.
Throughout this debate you've been very vague, sometimes outright
evasive, in regards to the last two seasons. I shouldn't have to go
back through your post history to get your opinons on those years, yet
your lack of discourse on the last two seasons has been consistent in
great measure up until recently in our back and forth discussion.
Maybe because you see it as more important to defend Carter than to
judge him -- or argue for him -- based on *those* seasons within this
context when talking to me. That's at least how it appears to me.
>I simply don't think the
> mistakes of the last season mean I'd rather have M & W write the next movie
> than him.
There are mistakes? I thought you said that outside Reyes and a couple
episodes you liked the last couple seasons. If that were the case, I'd
actually think you'd have more directly defended them, but in
actuality I think your true agenda is only to argue for Carter,
therefor ignoring to great degree what he did wrong -- which is shown
in great measure in regards to the last two seasons, which I think you
clearly know yourself.
>
> > in that area while you judge them fully on the material from their
> > last couple seasons which you dislike. It's not coherent.
>
> "It's not coherent," means that you don't agree.
No, it means that your outlook is incoherent in the way I originally
explained it was. I not only disagree with your comments, I also find
that they lack conheremce on the relationship issue considering
Carter's work his last two years -- work which you have been reticent
(unlike earlier seasons) to discuss.
>I prefer CC when he was
> good to M & W when they were good. I preferred CC when he was bad to M & W
> when they were bad. That's all. I prefer his style over theirs, if I had
> to do a tally. Of course, CC has an edge because I have more of his work to
> consider. He's more of a known quality to me. They are not as predictable.
> LGM is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series, but overall, I
> weigh in favor of CC. I'm more the PMP type than the Humbug type.
I like both Humbug and PMP alot, myself. I don't know why it would
have to be an either or issue inherently, but if I compare Home to
about anything from season 8 it's going to win handily (just as
something like Reqiuem, ironically, would). I didn't find that M&W's
work deteriorated as I feel Carter's so badly did.
>
> > I know you said they did good work the first two
> > years, but you don't consider that as part of their record in your
> > argument, just as you refuse to consider Carter's disgusting material
> > from the last two years when looking at him. I have a problem with
> > that.
>
> I do consider it, but CC's good work outweighs theirs in my mind.
I feel that you don't consider it when you argue that they can't be
trusted with the MSR. If they can't be trusted then neither can Carter
in my view, based on what he did the last couple years. It seems that
with Carter you look at what he did right with the relationship but
not what he did wrong, while with M&W you do just the opposite from
your own prism of what's right or wrong for the relationship.
>
> >
> > That's nice. Most of the fanbase disliked it -- and I'm sorry, but
> > that matters to any viability here as far as movies.
>
> Well then maybe whoever is doing the movie will consider the fact that you
> hated Doggett and act accordingly.
I would hope so, yes. Though if Carter is in charge the chances of a
character like Doggett -- who is unneeded, greatly unknown and/or
unwanted -- appearing suddenly go up I believe. Another reason not to
want him.
>It doesn't make any difference to my
> viewpoint that you did.
Just as it made no difference to my viewpoint whether you liked The
Gift or Reyes or not, yet you were the one to bring that up in the
issue of what you liked or disliked specifically about season 9. I was
only replying in kind -- but if you have a problem with the above
subject matter, you never should have gone down that road yourself
seeing as we never would have conversed on these matters at all if you
had not first done so.
Nothing like hypocritically pointing something out -- you're very good
at that.
>
> > How somebody could accuse M&W of mistreating the MSR while defending
> > something like season 8's BS I have no idea.
>
> I'm not defending Season 8; I just don't despise it as you do. And the fact
> that you deemed it a horrible season doesn't mean that M & W didn't mistreat
> the MSR. You act as if one thing proves another. It doesn't.
All I have done is point out that if Morgan and Wong mistreated the
MSR then by the same token Carter surely did as well the last two
years. I'm only asking you to hold him to the same standard as you do
M&W, not to let them off the hook. As I've explained before, and you
have consistently ignored for convenience's sake.
>
> >
> > But it wasn't only about Scully, but actually her relationship with
> > Mulder. You can dislike what it said, but it's entire point would
> > cease in terms of a flashback.
>
> It wasn't about Scully's relationship with Mulder. It just pretended to be.
It wasn't pretending to be anything, that's what it was about. Just
because you disliked what it said does not change this.
> In NA, Scully was reacting to Mulder as if he was Jack Willis or Daniel and
> she was the girl she had been in the past. The only way the show COULD work
> would be in flashback, because it wasn't dealing with present day
> characters.
Scully's issues with Mulder was as another dominating male authority
figure, which is obviously true in many regards. He was the head agent
as well as having the story be first and foremost from the outset
crafted around his obsessions and his quest, not the other way around.
Never Again is about Scully examining where she fits into that,
becoming upset at the idea of being Mulder's tag along.
Mulder was obviously a dominating and controling figure in Scully's
life. She never would have entered into that world if not for him, nor
consistently been drawn further and further down that path if he
wasn't there beside her or, in many instances, leading her. Through
the series -- even up through All Things -- it's Scully that longs for
the normal life in many ways while Mulder lives through the files.
This was a periodic issue that was peppered throughout the series --
not just something that only Morgan and Wong used or brought up out of
nowhere. In the end, she questions it at times, becomes upset about
it, but will never truly leave -- that was always the point.
The theme of the episode fit perfectly into the present, and would not
have worked in flashback because it would have NOTHING to do with the
XF and her relationship with Mulder, as the entire show was about
obviously.
>Unless, they wanted to tell us that Mulder was a shapeshifter
> and THAT's why she was reacting to him like he was one of the father figures
> she had known before. From Darkness Falls on we've seen Scully confront
> Mulder about the way he makes decisions for both of them, without telling
> her, even when her life or death is at risk. She was scared then, but not
> too scared to tell him he was out of line.
She was questioning her place broadly as far as the work and Mulder,
not just getting upset over a very specific incident. As is clear from
the outset, Mulder really does nothing overtly out of line in the
episode, instead it was a build-up that was long in coming.
Also, it could work better if you consider it as part of the post-LB
cancer arc. Which is easy to do.
>Vulnerable enough to panic and
> demand that he get the mites off of her, as she flailed and hit the light
> bulb, but even in fear, not hesitant to call him on it when he unilaterally
> takes power and decisions away. That early on, the dynamic was established.
> NA took Scully backwards to a place she may have been in her past, but not
> to a place she'd been with Mulder, with regard to repressing her objections
> to his "authority." She didn't repress. She ceded power to him, but always
> knew how to take it back and let him know when he'd stepped to far.
Never Again makes it clear that there are broad questions in regards
to the relationship, not just small ones or ones that are specifically
in the moment. It's about Scully therefor questioning her place. Your
counter examples are simply irrelevent because they were of the
moment, not about the broad dynamics of the relationship -- who was
controlling it, and who was following because of the other's goals
and/or obsessions. The longer the series was on the more moot it
became because of how much more equal the quest would become, but at
that point this was not quite the case -- which is the point therein.
>And, Mulder was always very quick to release the reins when she DID
stand up to
> him. The FTF kiss and the Per Magnum scenes were always very symbolic to
> me, because of the quick way Mulder takes his hands away both times.
Again, the above examples are situational and of the moment, which NA
was not about. It was a broad look at the relationship.
>That's
> the way he was throughout the relationship. The minute he sensed an
> objection from her, he backed off. Retreated. She didn't need to rebel
> against him -- against her feelings and fears yes, but not against Mulder.
It was all inherently about Mulder, so that carried over into her
reactions to him. Not difficult to figure.
>
> >
> > So, it's not okay for Scully to get pissed and do something a bit out
> > of character in NA, but it is okay for her to forget about Mulder and
> > shove his nameplate away while he's missing in season 8, even though
> > she was in a much more stable place with him at that point and even
> > was pregnant with his offspring? *That's* in-character? Okey dokey.
>
> Well, your use of perjorative terms doesn't make the description of events
> true.
What was pejorative about any of the comments I made in that
paragraph? Was she consistently shown as being concerned about the
search for Mulder? No, not at all really, with it being pushed to the
background overtly. Was she not pregnant with his kid (if the truth
somehow makes her look worse, that's not my fault)? Obviously she was.
Was I mistaken on the issue of Scully shoving Mulder's nameplate away?
No, not at all.
>She did not forget about Mulder.
No, she remembered him in the moments it was convenient to attack
their relationship -- whether that be through her or the show just
doing it in some other fashion -- including referencing NA, which you
say you hate, pathetically in regards to the desk issue which pointed
to far more of a degeneration of the character than NA ever did by
pretending as if that was still something that was very relevent, and
using it as a contrast to the "superior" partnership that Dogget and
Scully would henceforth be in. Now that, that was disgusting,
especially considering the context. And it's very obvious as to
Carter's agenda by one-sidedly bringing up a dead issue when one of
the parties isn't even present.
>Furthermore, there were plenty of
> things that I did not find "ok" about Season 8. It had 19 episodes and I'm
> not going to sit here and critique them all, because I did that back when
> they aired.
I don't recall asking you to go through every episode piece by piece
at all, so the above is rather pointless.
>Moreover, you're irrational, so the effort would be wasted.
Then isn't your whole argument here wasted, since it's been one with
me? Looks like you're the one who's irrational -- very incoherent in
your outlook -- considering your broad statement about me in contrast
to your actions in regards to engaging me at all. Funny.
> The mere fact that you leaped to the unfounded conclusion that I loved the
> end of the series just because Mulder ended up being the baby's father
> establishes your blindness, against anyone who doesn't share your apparent
> hatred for CC.
I further explained my thinking as to such a supposition, but you
convenintly ignored that explanation as far as Existence and sesaon 8
along with those about my feelings towards Carter specifically. So not
only are *you* irrational, you're also obviously and pathetically
dishonest.
>I never cared whether Mulder was the kid's dad or not.
So, since much of season 8 pertained to the question of paternity, I
guess you would have been fine if it was revealed that the baby was
really someone else's offspring? That wouldn't have bothered you at
all?
Since that was such an inherent question, it was going to be answered
in some form or another in that season, but if it was revealed that
Mulder supported Scully even though Skinner was the father (just cuz I
need a name to fill-in) you would have no qualms? Okey dokey.
>It
> mattered as much to me as whether or not he was Emily's father.
The question was never posed as far as Emily having a father. It was
not an issue like the paternity in season 8 was. Emily was about
medical rape inherently, while the William arc from the outset was not
only about how it was possible that Scully was pregnant (never
answered for shit) but even more as to *who* impregnated her. Are you
really telling me you'd be fine and dandy to find out Scully slept
with some other guy and had his kid instead of Mulder's? Wouldn't that
inherently harm and contradict what the relationship was up to that
point?
>I thought
> "the truth we both know" kiss was hysterical and in fact argued AGAINST
> people who claimed that that proved Mulder was the father, saying that it
> was subject to interpretation, as so many things on the show were.
The key difference as far as that scene as opposed to so many others
in the show's history is that it was a statement -- a confirmation
without contradiction or hint of other possibilities -- as opposed to
a question, as The X-Files was so often about. See, it was the answer
*to* the season's big question -- something rare for the show which
makes its point all the more striking and obvious. I don't know what
else can be read into the scene, as the statement was very clear and
without alternative (the only alternative, really, that I've seen is
to believe that there was no point being made at all there, which is
silly). And I especially find it funny that you would find it vague
considering the way you read so much into other moments in other
episodes all over the place. Very odd.
The way the scene plays -- Scully's comment to Mulder ("I named him
after your father") and his reply ("I don't know, Scully. He looks
suspiciously like AD Skinner") is not subtle at all. I can look at my
own family tree and see the evidence backed up, as baby's very often
are given the name of a close relative -- as Scully made clear was the
case -- and/or, as was also the case in Existence, their father's
middle name (all I have to do is look at my Uncle's first name in
contrast to my Grandfather's middle name for one example).
This was not a subtle or vague moment in the history of the show. Not
one bit.
I find it interesting that you're back to reading so much into wording
and specific actions in scenes, yet can't figure out the point of the
ending to the season. By your own standard -- wording being key, as
well as context -- Existence's last scene is overtly obvious in the
point it's trying to get across. I find it very weird how you are so
incoherent in how you analyze particular episodes or even particular
moments as opposed to others within a specific episode.
> I had big problems with the last seasons, but they didn't leave me bitter to
> the point where I go ballistic at the mention of CC's name.
And who does? He doesn't make me "ballistic" but his actions make me
believe that it's for the best if someone else is in control of any
future XF projects. For whatever reason, you find it convenient to try
and portray me as someone who's "Losing it" in some way by being out
of control with my hatred for Carter as a human being, which I have
said over and over is untrue. Dishonesty's a bad habit when anybody
can see just what it is you're lying about. The above inference is
just another example of your problem in this area.
>
> As for the "Patience," the nameplate is especially unimportant when you
> consider the type of person that Mulder was.
It's not unimportant at all. It's a very specific point. Hilarious how
you can rtead so much into how Mulder refers to Scully or someone
leading her aound when she's pregnant, but can see no point at all in
the events of Patience.
It's attacks on Mulder and the MSR are obvious as can be. Once again,
you show how incoherent your thinking is when looking at one scene as
opposed to another.
>Did he place value on that sort
> of thing? Was he part of that world? Was he into status and career and
> advancement?
So I take it by that standard there's no point being made in Never
Again when Scully asks why she doesn't have a desk, right? Uh huh.
The nameplate issue was totally lacking in any type of subtlety --
again, in order to act as if it was something else you must pretend as
if there's nothing to it at all, as there's no alternate reading to be
had as far as substance. Telling? I'd say so.
Carter's point got through to me loud and clear -- i.e. Mulder's the
past, forget him, and he was also a bad partner. Seemed pretty
"dehumanizing" to me, but I guess there really was nothing of
importance to it. You'd be wise to learn that such scenes are not
filmed to be without point typically, and this clearly was a case
where the point was driven home conclusively. To the extent that there
is no alternative reading on substance to be had, only a pretence by
some that there's nothing really there at all. Which overtly
contradicts my aforementioned little rule to watch for.
>Not at all. I don't say that part of him didn't regret the
> place and respect he didn't have.
So Scully was really doing him a favor by shoving his nameplate away?
Yeah, that must have been it. Give me a break.
>I think talking with the cop in X-Cops, we
> get a glimpse of that wistful side of Mulder. Sometimes, it's not always fun
> or fair to be "Spooky." But it was his lot and it's the one he accepted and
> when given the chance to follow the traditional path and win kudos or to
> take the extreme path and be ridiculed, he always chose the extreme.
What does any of this have to do with Scully shoving his nameplate
away in Patience? Nothing that I can see. I guess having your
existence being thrown in a corner by even the most important person
in your life can be seen as nothing of signifigance when you're a
loser like Spooky Mulder? Wow, I can see why you'd defend Carter on
this since that's what you appear to think.
>He
> always rejected the official. The official word, the official people, the
> official trappings. I think they specifically chose a symbol that would NOT
> represent Mulder to take off of his desk, so that the essence of the man
> remained.
So, what you're saying is, is that there was no point at all? Yeah
right. If that were the case such a scene would not even exist in the
first place. Why would it?
>Notice, it's not the poster that was removed. It would have been
> more personal, more Mulder, even if Scully had removed pencils from the
> ceiling, especially after Chinga. I'm sure it would mean a lot to an Up and
> Comer like Tom Colton was when we saw him (he's probably an A.D. by now), to
> have someone remove his nameplate. That's not who Mulder was, not when we
> met him and not when he left us.
The question remains, why would they stick in that scene, particularly
considering some of the other exchanges and underlying theme within
that episode, if there was no point to it? That's a very big hole in
your argument, to the extent where the entire thing is either
nonexistent or close to it due to such damage.
It's also telling that you have to pull up -- or make up -- so much
information as far as the characters and so forth to get an alternate
reading other than the obvious, and that that alternate reading, in
the end, is only that the scene means nothing of signifigance which
isn't believable considering the broad dynamics of the episode and
where the show was as far as transition.
>There are things that matter a lot to me at
> work, but Mulder's sensibilities were not what mine are and that's not the
> kind of thing he cared about. Scully was the person more prone to think that
> you express your feelings through THINGS. If she had a nameplate and Mulder
> removed it, I can see her being hurt and Mulder shocked that she could think
> that everything (even the smallest thing) he felt for her could be embodied
> in a nameplate.
And WHO removes the nameplate? The woman who thinks in just those
terms! Geez, there goes your argument to even further extent -- in
fact, you just made my argument for me on this subject. Great job. I
applaud you on your logic as far as Scully on this one as it only
strengthens my point and tears up yours. Awesome.
>
> If Doggett hadn't been there, she have left the nameplate out, because
> that's where her heart was. However, she realized she was working with a guy
> who was doing his job and showing her respect and she came to feel it would
> be petty not to give him the professional courtesy he deserved, just because
> she missed Mulder. I think she just realized it was not Doggett's fault that
> he was gone. She remembered how she felt about not having a desk thanks to
> your beloved NA.
Oh, geez, so Patience references an old hurt from an episode you think
is awful in its points on the relationship, yet you think it has no
point whatsoever in regards to said relationship by doing so? Yet more
incoherence.
>Mulder didn't mean to disparage her role. What's more, if
> she'd really wanted a desk she could have ordered one from requisition like
> Doggett could. However, Mulder not thinking about it himself made her feel
> that he thought she was inferior and I think she just decided she wouldn't
> make Doggett feel that way.
Exactly what the episode wants us to know. Mulder was a bad partner,
but things were going to be healthier and better between Scully and
Doggy. Aw.
>He was ok out in the field. He might not deserve
> any perks, but he's entitled to the basics.
Yes, but that ain't something you're entitled to or likely to get when
you're partnered with Mulder. Which is the point.
>She's not Mulder, but she's not
> Dana Scully, the new special agent either. She remembers clearly how it felt
> to be the latter and she's beginning to see what it felt like to be the
> former, as the locals lash out at your crazy theories. She's somewhere in
> the middle, seeing why Mulder used to get frustrated like he did and seeing
> herself in Doggett, as he helped execute her exhumation instructions, even
> though he didn't believe in her theories. That's what she would have done
> for Mulder. She knew how Doggett must have felt because she knew how SHE has
> felt in the same situation. So, in saying he could have a desk and taking
> the nameplate away, (not because she'd put Mulder aside but because she
> didn't want Doggett to feel like he was outsider on the cases that he was
> working on just as hard as she was) she did something for him that she
> remembers she would have wanted done for her when she was where he was then.
Again, Scully was avoiding Mulder's thoughtlessness as a partner. The
contrast is clear, as well as the point. Evidently the clear
thoughtlessness as far as Mulder and his disappearance doesn't count
though -- cuz in that regard, Mulder comes off far better in his
pursuit of missing loved ones throughout the series than Scully does
in season 8.
>
>
> > But that could very well be the point. She goes out with another guy
> > because of her problems with Mulder -- if you take that out of the
> > episode you're left with something pretty vacuous in my view, and
> > something that does far less service for the characters present.
>
> It WAS pretty vacuous in my view. That's the problem.
We've gone over this. At no time have you pointed out how it's vacuous
in message, only how you thoroughly dislike the message and theme of
the episode. Evidently you believe that because you dislike it that
somehow makes it empty, but nothing you've provided as far as argument
has supported such a stance.
Just because you dislike the message doesn't mean it isn't there.
>
> >
> > As I said, in my opinion it was a relationship episode at its base.
>
> And in my view it was a misshapen Scully episode masquerading as a
> relationship episode.
It wasn't masquerading as anything. It was a relationship episode.
Just because you dislike what it says about the relationship doesn't
mean that that wasn't what it was about. You seem to think that
because you dislike that makes it a non-relationship ep, even though
that's clearly what it is about.
>
> >It
> > wasn't pretty, but that's what you see examined within its confines.
> > And when you're doing a long-running, serialized show, not every
> > episode has to show the best side of the cahracters or their
> > relationship,
>
> There are plenty of episodes that don't show the best side of the character
> (Paper Heart) or their relationship (Bad Blood comes to mind), but they
> aren't insulting to me.
Whether NA insults you or not -- or hurts you -- doesn't mean that it
isn't a relationship episode. It's also amazing to see more hypocrisy
on your part, as you try and use other episodes in contrast to make
your point yet criticize me when I have done the same thing to try and
hold you to your own standard as far as the relationship.
>
> > So? I don't see why Scully can't be flawed, or a little screwed up.
> > Mulder was alot screwed up and nobody really had a problem with that.
> > I don't see why Scully always has to be the dominating presence or
> > "strong" either.
>
> I never said that Scully had to be strong. There are many episodes where
> she's not strong at all (BTS, Gender Bender, Milagro, Wetwired, etc.) that
> are not insulting to me.
Oh, yet more contrasts to make a point. What hypocrisy considering
your statements to me when I have done the same. Also, you only make
my point that Scully is flawed and as prone to weakness or bad
judgement as anybody with your other examples, whether you consider
those insulting or not is of litle relevence to my main point. So
again, you only help me through your own argument. Thank you.
>
> > And somebody could probably just as easily make the argument of Scully
> > being out of character in an episode like All Things. In quite a few
> > regards. At least as far as following who we knew her as up until that
> > episode. I can see how you could argue either side myself.
>
> I think the fact that All Things DID bring up someone from her past and
> contrast that relationship to hers with Mulder made it work better than NA
> did.
Your problem with NA is that it's out of character. By the same
standard, I repeat, All Things is just as out of character when
examined. That doesn't make either episode wrong in interpretation or
further illumination, but it does show how little your argument
against NA holds up to scrutiny on the issue.
>NA had her responding to relationships with father figures and then
> grafted her past problems in those relationships ONTO Mulder and that's why
> I didn't buy it.
NA was about dominating males in her life, which fits Mulder as far as
profile. It started out as her entering his world, and NA is about how
much further if at all she wants to go down that path. It's about her
living her life for his quest, even though it isn't really hers.
>Furthermore, All Things did not pretend to be about Mulder
> when it wasn't.
In what way does NA do this? I don't see that at all.
>
> When I first saw "All Things," I thought Scully's attitude was a lot like
> Never Again. The one mitigating factor was that she called Mulder back into
> the room as he was leaving and asked him if he ever wanted to stop moving.
> This saved things a bit for me, because he was leaving in a huff ("thank you
> for lunch" without having finished it) and she called him back and asked him
> if he ever wanted to stop moving and even though her tone was not apologetic
> when she called after him, I think there was a bit of apology in the
> gesture. He was leaving personally offended and her question kind of made it
> clearer that her objections were not about him, it was about being too busy
> to live life in general. I logged on here and said she was acting a lot like
> "Never Again" and "Syzygy" and I thought Unbound made a nice distinction by
> saying not really, because her fight was not with Mulder ("you didn't get me
> a desk!") in this episode. In "All Things," she was raging against herself
> and her own restlessness. She was irritable and it expressed itself in
> exasperation with Mulder, but it really wasn't about Mulder. She wasn't
> blaming or accusing him and I can deal with her being waspish and impatient
> just because she was in a bad mood, if she wasn't faulting him for her own
> problems as she was in NA.
So? That doesn't make NA wrong or AT right, or vice versa. It's a
different angle, but on the issue of what's in character, neither
would or could hold up to the standard you try and place on NA -- i.e.
what we knew of Scully before either episode.
>
> So, Scully's unrest was not really about Mulder, yet "All Things" did
> address the MSR as a whole, while the only realistic MSR element in NA was
> Mulder himself.
I still don't think you've explained how this is the case.
NA could just as easily fit into your outline of the relationship
above. That's the funny thing.
>
> I really minded that Mulder's feelings were hurt in "All Things," and it was
> important to me that Scully not exacerbate his pain. He asks her to pick up
> that stuff from Colleen and it just got on my nerves that she couldn't say,
> yes, she would. Instead she has to say, "I'll see what I can do for you,"
> not making any promises. That just infuriated me, because she was being
> deliberately annoying. How much time would it take for her to stop by and
> pick up the stuff and to tell Mulder that she would, rather than leaving him
> blowing in the wind, for sport? So, yes I think she was being needlessly
> irksome there (as Mulder is, even when he's sleeping) and if she hadn't gone
> over there for Mulder, I would have wished worse things on her than a near
> auto collision.
Judging by how personally you take even small slights, it's not
difficult to figure why you think I hate Chris Carter as a person and
want him "punished". It appears that you're the one with the problem
of over-personalizing things to the point where you swing too far one
way or another much of the time. I guess you need to look in the
mirror before criticizing others in such matters, that is clear.
>However, the reason I cared so much was because I knew
> Mulder was calling her to make emotional contact, NOT because he was
> interested in the literature that much. They were at odds. He didn't know
> why and he was trying to feel her out and to get things back on track on a
> personal level. I needed her to meet him halfway. I needed it more because
> she wouldn't meet him even 1/10 of the way in NA.
NA is about them not being on the same page. What you appear to find
disturbing about that ep is that this goes unresolved -- but such is
the point of the entire thing.
>I knew he was making a
> personal overture to her, but I don't think Scully knew this. So, I don't
> really blame her for Mulder's hurt feelings.
Wait, I thought if she was any more callous you were going to want
something very terrible to happen to her. Now you really don't blame
her at all? Hm.
>For all she knew, Mulder just
> wanted some crop circle research and he could have sent an FBI courier over
> to pick it up instead of her. So, if she had let him down and not gotten the
> stuff from Colleen, I don't think she would have realized that she was
> hurting him on a personal level and that would not have been just her fault.
> They don't understand each other. They're scared to put their hearts on the
> line. So, she can't say, "I'm jealous of Diana, because she's a woman you
> were once involved with and I see her as a rival," and he can't say, "I want
> to go to England with you, because I want us to spend time away from the
> bureau together." They can't say (or even admit internally) what they really
> feel, so if they misunderstand each other, I don't think either the person
> who misunderstood or the person who was misunderstood is completely at
> fault.
>
> In NA, Mulder's words go unfinished.
Yeah, again, your problem seems to be more with the lack of resolution
to any of it than anything else. As even you have made clear that the
theme of that episode is not something unique to the relationship.
>In One Son, Mulder and Scully reunite,
> shooting at the train. I think they reunite emotionally too, but it's
> unspoken. In "All Things," it's verbal. She says what she would have missed
> if she'd spent her life with Daniel (Mulder being the top thing on the
> Potentially Missed List) and he lovingly covers her with a blanket. In the
> end, it's not about crop circles or the FBI at all. They interact on a
> personal, non-work level for a change and it's clear both to the audience
> AND to Mulder (which was not the case in NA) that whatever her problem was,
> it certainly was not with him. No, she didn't want to go to England to study
> crop circles, but she DID want to be with him, was relieved that he was home
> early unexpectedly, DID want to be in his apartment, making him tea and
> talking with him way into the night. He knew this and if they were at odds
> earlier in the show, the problem is resolved
Yes, resolution is the key word for you on this issue I think.
>in a more direct (as opposed to
> the indirect way we usually get where they both admit they want to work
> together, but don't acknowledge they just want to be together as friends, or
> more), complete and satisfying way than I've ever seen their friction dealt
> with in any other episode.
Well, you don't think Existence is direct, so I question your
statement simply when considering the comparison. Again, your
examination to such great extent of the meaning and ending of All
Things in contrast to how you can so clearly miss the point of
Existence is mystifying. Very contradictory.
>
> >
> > Which also points to manipulation. Does that really seem like a strong
> > character that doesn't question her place? Looks like many of the same
> > insecurities were present to some extent in Milagro.
>
> Yes. Milagro and NA are riddled with similarities. That's why I said I
> thought Milagro was NA done right in the first place.
And yet it deals with so many of the same thematic elements, as you
admit. Your problem clearly is that NA is different in resolution of
things -- or more clearly, in its non-resolution.
>
> > I think my problem is that it progressed up to that point and really
> > could or would not go any further for such a long time because the
> > only place to go, really, was a physical relationship.
>
> But why go to a physical relationship? What would that have ADDED? I'm not
> saying that they should have refrained from an overt physical relationship,
> but what would it have added one way or the other? How would that have
> deepened the MSR?
Uh, I explained this again, and you AGAIN ignored and cut it out. It
was needed because of the pregnancy issue of season 8. As I said
before, that season is greatly wasted as far as the pregnancy arc and
the interactions between Mulder and Scully because it wanted to hold
off on the big revelation of Mulder being the father -- therefore, as
far as the serilialized plotting of the season, the entire thing was
pretty close to vacuous. Nothing is really done with the pregnancy,
other than it being revealed that Mulder is the father and Scully
having the kid -- a big waste.
Also, as I said earlier, if you're going to set up a romantic thread
on a show it's expected that at some point it be resolved through a
physical relationship. Why shouldn't it be? That's the question I
would ask. At some point it just becomes dumb, and a tease for the
sake of status quo and the gimmick -- basically cowardice on the
issue, even while exploiting it. Obviously if the two are attracted to
and love each other there's no realistic reason for it to never
happen, as you seem to think would have been fine -- once the romantic
issue, or intentions, were overtly played out in FTF it became
inevitable and only logical that at some point this issue would need
to be resolved lest it become an illogical joke.
How many times do I have to repeat the above before you'll acknowledge
that I've already answered you fully?
Now, you had *no* reason to repeat your little question above as I
have explained myself multiple times on this issue. Just because you
dislike my answer doesn't mean it isn't there. You're just being
overtly dishonest, which frankly I've had about enough of. Maybe this
time you can quote a portion of my explanations, while still
misrepresnting them by cutting out the rest? Sounds about right.
>
> > And like I said, I don't think I'd so much have a problem with this if
> > it was wrapped up and concluded by the end of season 7. I'm sure you
> > disagree -- seeing as how you like season 8 -- but what makes season 8
>
> Season 8 was not my favorite season of the show, but it did not make me want
> to crucify anyone.
And who did I say I wanted to crucify? In fact, when you accused me of
much the same thing in an earlier post, I denied it -- only to have
you ignore my denials and reiterate your same dishonest accusals of me
having it in for Carter. And again, an example above of you cutting up
a paragraph of mine only to have you act as if you're still loking for
the explanation I gave you within it -- as the rest of *that* further
explained why I thought the need for a physical relationship being
confirmed at the end of season 7 instead of 8 was needed. But, of
course, you act as if I never did explain myself on the issue at all.
That's just sad.
>
> >I don't
> > understand that in relation to your previous argument of always
> > wanting a strong and healthy relationship between Mulder and Scully.
> >
>
> I never said that I always wanted a strong and healthy relationship between
> Mulder and Scully. In fact, I said it's sometimes even better when we see
> them functioning through their dysfunction.
And yet that's exactly why you're against Morgan and Wong -- because
they made the relationship too dysfunctional in your view.
And again, you cut up my paragraph above. As I said, I fail to see how
seasons 8 & 9 are okay if you think Morgan and Wong went too far.
>
> The thing is, a lot of Season 8 is nebulous. You are left to read meaning
> into it (nothing new on TXF). Often, where you read a negative meaning into
> it, I don't.
Yes, as with Patience, where I see a clear theme you try and pretend
there's a disconnect or nothing at all as far as the nameplate issue.
>I wasn't with Scully every moment of every day. I don't know
> how she might have missed Mulder in private, so I assume she did and
> something like Per Magnum helps me to make that assumption. I can read what
> I want into the offscreen scenes.
So why don't you do that and fix all your problems with NA? My God, it
could be a great episode for you if you just followed this standard
with it.
>Now, we were talking about Agua Mala on
> here a few weeks ago. I saw Scully onscreen with my own two eyes not
> worrying about Mulder while she delivered a baby. That got on my nerves.
> When it comes to things I don't see, I'm like a camel who can live off of my
> MSR reserves.
Even as it's being attacked, evidently. I guess since you're a camel
at that point you see what you want to see, kind of like a mirage,
following the whole desert theme.
>I don't need to be told that Scully is still missing Mulder,
> based on the strength of the relationship I SAW for 7 years, I won't believe
> that it has been destroyed or forgotten based on things I DON'T see.
I believe it's being attacked during season 8 based on what I *did*
see. Doesn't mean it destroyed it, but it was hurt (there's that word)
needlessly because of Carter's vendetta.
>I
> don't need to view her missing Mulder, to know that she does.
Based on this, I guess none of us even needed a show after the first
couple years -- why not just "imagine it all". You're only
underscoring what a disaster season 8 is just in this regard, let
alone all the very direct ones. When it does deal with the MSR it
mostly is botched that season, with non-resolution being the theme of
the day -- along with a heavy dose of ignorance -- at least when
Mulder is back amongst the living, because while he's missing he's
being attacked all over the place, along with the precious
relationship you act as if you champion when arguing against Morgan
and Wong.
>Taking that
> approach, I just can't think the MSR was as ruined in the last seasons as
> you do. I'm not going to read bad things into the subtext, just because I'm
> disappointed by the script's omissions.
You certainly can read a great amount into episodes you like, but when
you don't want to see something that's screaming in your face I guess
you just turn on that wonderful imagination you're so proud of. Kind
of explains your debate tactics in this thread, actually.
>As I said before, something like
> Dreamland II bothers me, because I SAW them saying goodbye forever to each
> other in the headlights. In FTF I HEARD Scully tell Mulder she was thinking
> of accepting a job in Utah without saying goodbye to him (what?!)
Did you want something more "terrible than a car wreck" harm her
again? You may want to have these impulses checked out. I guess you
must have been very happy when the bee -- that had been hiding in her
collar for HOURS conveniently -- stung her. Bad Scully. Bad!
>When I see
> it happen onscreen, I mind.
Hm. I guess you must have had your eyes closed through a good portion
of season 8.
Also, the non-existent exploration of the relationship that was
previously so strong was a first for the show in its entire run. It
seems you made up new standards for yourself just so you could pretend
season 8 "wasn't that bad". Because, certainly, never had the
relationship been so bungled before that season, whether through
attacks or simply being ignored.
>When it doesn't happen on screen, I don't
> imagine the worst. Scully was stupid at the end of the series (like leaving
> the baby out in the living room to be kidnapped and molested by all and
> sundry), but I didn't see her not loving Mulder.
Some episodes the last couple seasons she seemed to care more about
Doggett.
>
>
> > Why? They're relationship is the same no matter what the type of movie
> > it is. It must be addressed, and I would assume it would be. It's not
> > like the relationship as it now is only exists in relation to William
> > or the Mytharc. It simply is what it is, no matter the type of movie
> > we get.
>
> I'd like it to address William though.
Whether William's addressed or not, does not change what the
relationship now is in the canon. As I said, the relationship and its
details are not dependent on William -- you act as if because it's
MOTW (which is unlikely, considering) the relationship will not be the
same as it was overtly heading into such a movie.
>One thing that made me think he
> would be revisited was the stagey behavior of the farm family. From
> everything we know on this show about people who conduct themselves in such
> a preternaturally wholesome fashion, they must be cult members of some form.
> I mean they were practically "Roadrunner" type of people. That just means
> that William will be endangered and his parents might have to rescue him in
> the movie, proving how stupid it was to send him away in the first place.
> What I'd rather learn is that Scully did not send him out to be adopted as
> it appears and that we have somehow been fooled.
Already this is too complicated for the confines of a movie,
considering not everybody is going to be an XF fanatic or maybe didn't
bother with the last few seasons. Carter really blew it.
>
> > And yet you cut out my points against season 8 in this regard, never
> > addressing them.
>
> What is your point about Season 8? That you hated it? Big deal.
What is your point when pointing out how much you dislike the work of
Morgan and Wong in their last couple seasons? That you hated their
material? Big deal.
And the reason I make points about season 8 -- specifically in the
above context -- is because you ASKED me questions that directly
pertained to that season and my feelings on it. Then you turn around,
again cut up my post, and act as if you have no idea why I'm referring
to season 8? You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever had
the displeasure to converse with on a message forum. And consider some
of the other posters that has included, that's truly saying something.
Your game is tiresome and frankly pathetic.
>That's not
> something I care to address.
No, you don't appear to care to address many of my answers to your
questions. Yet you're just fine with repeating the same questions over
and over as if I never have answered, even though I clearly have on
many such issues. You are a liar. Tactless but true.
>I wasn't in love with Season 8 and 9 but that
> doesn't stop me from preferring to trust CC with a movie over M & W.
And you'll do anything to promote your preference for Carter over M&W,
including your dishonest, evasive and vague tactics in this thread on
that subject.
Tahts' alaso clearly the reason why you bother to cut all but the most
recent pieces of the thread chain in regards to our debate up. Makes
it more difficult to see what was previously said. Somewhat clever,
but also dishonest considering your other debating methods.
>
>
> > If the last scene of Existence
> > didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8?
>
> The last scene in Existence did nothing for me either way. Since I never
> mentioned it before this post, I'm perplexed as to why you keep throwing it
> up in my face? Do you just assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you
> is an Existence-lover -- or a Nazi?
Uh, again, I further explained my position on this, but you cut that
explanation out -- because it was inconvenient for you. Here you go,
I'm just going to repost it, since I clearly ALREADY answered the
above question as to why I brought Existence up:
But, oddly, you seem okay with that. If the last scene of Existence
didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8? Like I
said, it appears to me that all that matters to you in this regard was
the destination instead of the bungled journey to that climax -- why
else would you be okay with the tattered mess of a relationship of
season 8 when you argue so strongly about it in regards to others
seasons? I'd appreciate it if you directly answered me on this instead
of cutting this out of your reply.
The above point, in case you missed it, is that the only way someone
could argue for season 8 on the strength of the relationships which
you're always acting as if is so damned important, is if they were far
more concerned with the destination than the journey. Otherwise,
considering the emptiness as far as that relationship in season 8, and
the serialzed plot around it, you get basically nothing. Yet you would
argue that Carter did fine by the relationship, even though you missed
his main point at the end of the season while providing little else as
far as substance the rest of the way? Well, whatever -- must have
really closed your eyes and imagined a hell of alot to be satisfied
that season, as well as ignoring whatever you didn't like.
>
> > It was an off-hand remark, and your only using the tactics you pretend
> > I'm trying to use by dragging such a meaningless quote out, while
> > ignoring so much else of what I've posted, with yet more vacuous and
> > childish replies in regards to it. It's telling that you choose to
> > focus on this instead of more substantive issues.
>
> It is substantive to me because it gives me insight into the "everyone
> agrees with me" way you think
I didn't even say everybody agrees with me in the original comment --
I said that *I* believed *many*, not all or even most, would disagree
with you on your implied stance that M&W were only quirky as opposed
to good and that Carter was superior. I stand by that. Now you're just
being hyperbolic -- basically more dishonesty on your part. A
consistent theme in your replies to me, along with the all the
incoherence in them. Lies lies lies. That's all you know.
>and helps me analyze the motives underlying
> your curious adamence on the CC subject.
Is it any more curious than yours on M&W? I've explained my stance,
you've just chosen to ignore a great deal of it.
>I ignored other portions of your
> post that weren't as important in explaining where you're coming from.
No, you're trying to manipulate my paragraphs so you can paste what
you want to as far as meaning onto them and ignore what you don't want
to deal with, even while acting as if you still want me to answer
questions that I've given you the same answers to multiple times only
to have those replies be ignored.
>
> >
> > As far as I can tell -- judging by ratings and what happend to the
> > show -- more agree with me about seasons 8 & 9 and what Carter did
> > with them than you. The Doggett Files would still be on right now
> > otherwise.
>
> If people agreed with me, the show wouldn't be on, because I wanted it off
> and wished Gillian could have left earlier. If she had, I would have. The
> show retained interesting elements for me. For instance, I didn't think
> even Badlaa was all that horrible, no matter what it sounded like on paper
> ("butt Genie").
Now, if I were you, I'd just ask you what this "has to do with Movie
2". Hell, maybe I'll leave it at that.
>
> But for Gillian and DD's return appearances, I wouldn't have continued
> watching. But that really has nothing to do with the point at hand, which
> is Movie 2.
Oh, coherence on a subject for once, even you noticed it. Thing is,
sesaons 8 & 9 are a big part of what I'm judging Carter on -- just as
you admit that you judge Morgan and Wong on their later work. Somehow
you think that's relevent but that doing the same with Carter is not
-- damn, you're back to incoherence.
>This exchange didn't start as an analysis of Seasons 8 - 9 at
> all.
It started as an analysis of seasons 8 & 9 as fa ras bad material
(broadly, the majority of those seasons) just as it started as an
analysis of Morgan and Wong's later work on the show and how that
might translate to a movie. Maybe you should re-read the thread if you
still can't grasp this.
>You believe that the person behind Seasons 8 - 9 should never be
> trusted again. If I only had Seasons 8 - 9 to judge him on, I might agree.
Wait, I thought they were fine seasons for the most part and that you
liked them. Now you agree that they're bad enough that if you judge
Carter on them solely he should be kept away? Yet again, you're
contradicting yourself.
Just as you are by only judging Morgan and Wong on their later work
while you act as if this is wrong to do in regards to Carter. You
never can follow your own standard it appears -- you've actually got
*double*- standards all over the place.
> But I have much more. On balance, the body of work CC gave me and allowed
> others (including M & W) to give me prompted me to say I would trust him
> with Movie 2, before M & W.
You made it clear that you simply didn't trust Morgan and Wong period,
in your very first post on this subject, not just in comparison to
Carter. Just as I don't trust Carter period.
>It didn't make me say Seasons 8 - 9 were great,
> that Doggett was a God or anything along those lines.
Oh, so I guess you and Laura Cap may have disagreements as well. Pity.
>
> > Why should I believe that Carter will change back from his last two
> > years of bullshit any more than you believe Morgan and Wong will turn
> > around from the work they gave us over the last few years they worked
> > on the show? Also, Home's a great example of my point because it's one
> > of the final episodes they made, and it has none of the antagonism you
> > pretend was all through their work the last couple seasons.
>
> I don't pretend that antagonism threaded through ALL of their work. I just
> didn't like their work that much anymore and didn't like the direction that
> they wanted to take the MSR in. I don't NOT believe they'd be willing to
> revert to what they were in the first 1.5 years of the show. I just don't
> know if they will one way or another.
Just as you don't know what Carter would do on the movie. Yet even
though he msitreated the MSR and the show as a wole, you seem to trust
him with it.
>If they gave a press conference
> saying that they intend to, maybe I'd change my mind.
Oddly, Chris Carter need not give such a press conference. I guess he
always was great with the relationship.
>Given the
> uncertainties, I'd trust them over Carter.
Huh, so would I. Something tells me you mis-worded that.
>You'd like to make it seem like
> I have some kind of vendetta against M & W to place my opinion on the same
> personal level as your animosity for CC,
No, you're the one with the agenda as far as pretending I hate Chris
Carter on a personal level. Even though I've explained otherwise --
beacuse you like to see and believe what you want to, and thus are
dishonest.
Just because I say that you view Morgan and Wong much the way I do
Carter does not mean that I think you automatically have great
animostity for them or wish something bad would happen to them, as you
have acted is the case out of nowhere as far as my dislike for Carter
on the XF -- you made something up in your head, and have decided to
stick with it no matter what I say. That's the truth. In the end I
don't have anything personal against Chris Carter, I just don't want
him to make another movie based off his past record -- just the same
way you have made clear you feel about Morgan and Wong. Go ahead and
stick to your own story if you must, but that's how I truly feel on
the subject.
>but I just can't feel that strongly
> against them, as you would like me to do, to prove your point.
You've already proven my point through your own arguments. You've been
arguing against the two based on their past work over their final
years, just as I have with Carter. No difference. Even though you want
to pretend there is, so you can act as if your opinion is more valid
in preferring Carter. In the end, you're just a liar.
>
> Home has no antagonism, but Mulder was removed from Scully in the bench
> scene and I didn't like it, just as I loved (as humor), but was made uneasy
> by, his attitude in WOTC.
Again, you over-read that scene yet miss so much in others. Amazing. I
found that scene pleasant, and I did not think Mulder was "removed"
from Scully at all. Was he supposed to be really into discussing what
color she would want the baby's room to be or something? Geez.
>In Home when Mulder suggested Scully only had to
> find a guy who did not mind being second-guessed, I think there was a little
> voice in her head telling her that at this point in time, there was no other
> guy she could find who would embody those things she'd come to look for most
> in a partner.
Wow, you paste what you want to on *this* scene, yet can't figure out
the point of the ending to Existence? Talk about seeing whatever you
want to, for whatever reason.
>She had that look in her eye, but he didn't and their bond
> seemed less deep than I would have liked because of that.
Yeah, I thought she had that "take me now!" look in that scene too.
Wonder how Mulder missed it?
>But it's a fun
> show. I mean just his reaction to her Bah-Ram-U attempts at herding was
> great enough to recommend the episode, but the incest, legless, armless
> mother under the bed and in the car trunk type of humor is not something I
> want to see in Movie 2, when I could have something closer to FTF in its
> place.
That episode kicks ass. Ironically it's probably too extreme to be
used in a movie.
>
> >
> > And you've been doing much the same thing on the other side, so don't
> > pretend as if you have no idea what the point is.
> >
>
> I never knocked M & W, much less knocked them to try to make Carter look
> better.
And as I said to you, but you cut out because you're so dishonest, I
was only holding you to your own standard for M&W by bringing up some
episodes that Carter oversaw where Mulder and Scully weren't on the
best of terms. Telling that when I use your standard you twist it to
mean that I'm hating on Carter -- that would inherently mean you were
doing the same with M&W, if you actually stopped to consider things.
Again, you only help to maake my point through your own words. Thanks
again.
>So, no I don't know what your point is
Duh, I told you what my point was. You cut that out and ignored it.
You have a real problem with honesty, or lack thereof.
>in telling me how awful he
> is, it's not going to make me want them to write the next movie instead.
I never said he was awful in those paragraphs you're now taking
exception to, I said that there were examples of his "mistreatment" of
the relationship by *your* own standard on the subject. But of course,
you ignore that and act as if I was screaming for Carter's head, when
all I did was look at a couple of episodes where Mulder and Scully
were a bit hostile at points that had nothing to do with the dreaded
M&W.
>
> > You also have no problem with seasons 8 & 9 evidently, which is
> > telling as to your position. Though I still can't find coherence in
> > attacking others on the relationship while letting Carter off the
> > hook.
> >
>
> I didn't attack them. I said that if I had to choose, I'd want him instead
> of them. The fact that you consider an opinion that diverges from your own
> an "attack" is significant.
As significant as the way you use words like "crucify" and "punish" in
relation to my arguments against Carter which don't go along with your
views? Again, you're shown as a hypocrite. Nice work.
>I'm not the one raging about what they
> destroyed and how they should never be trusted with anything again, blah
> blah blah.
You started out with that message from the begining, specifically
mentioneing how YOU did NOT trust them with the MSR. That's how this
started. More dishonesty. It just never ends with you.
>I can't hate them like you do CC.
You remember when I said I did not hate him but would prefer someone
else make the next movie? Yeah, along the same line as your statements
as far as Morgan and Wong. Just because you ignore my replies does not
negate them.
>
> > One minute you admit Carter was pissed and had a vendetta gainst DD,
> > yet you refuse to see how this carried over into the material?
>
> I didn't say it didn't carry over into the material. I could tell that
> before Season 8 started, by seeing Mulder in the torture chair in the
> television commercials.
Oh, so you can see it in some cliched torture scenes, but not in the
obvious thematic attacks on the character throughout early season 8?
If torture scenes was all there was, I would not have a problem with
season 8 in this regard -- though there would still be many others
that I would find problematic.
>However, the fact that CC was mad at DD didn't make
> me think that Scully forgot about Mulder. I was able to separate what went
> on onscreen from what went on offscreen and evaluated the 2 separately.
So, you made up a nice little fantasy world so you could pretend that
season 8 was decent. That's what I see when consider your meaning.
>The
> nameplate had a different meaning for me.
Yeah, evidently a non-meaning. How about the love triangle? That was
pretty damned inspired, no? I felt so bad for Doggett when Mulder
started breathing. Actually, I'm lying about that. You must be rubbing
off on me.
>
>
> > As for William, that was the biggest storyline for either of the last
> > two seasons, and even you admit it was botched.
>
> I don't have to "admit" it was botched. I don't have a personal stake in
> Season 8 and never lauded the baby plot or the season.
You stated that you were "hurt" by its resolution, which seems to be
synonomous for you with bad or "botched". Maybe I misread your
meaning.
I think it was horrible because nothing was done with it of
signifigance.
>I just wasn't as
> destroyed by it as you were.
Who said I was destyoyed? Other than you?
>
> > Also, Scully and Mulder are two of the worst parents in existence. I'm
> > sure you think of that as a hurtful comment, but their actions only
> > back it up.
>
> I didn't see Mulder being a parent at all
Um, since he was the baby's father he was inherently a parent quite
obviously, even if he was a deadbeat.
>and suppose there could be a valid
> reason for him being away as he was in Season 9.
But as is typical of the reatarded writing of that period, no decent
or coherent explanation is ever given.
>As far as Scully being a
> bad parent goes, I said the same thing myself many times.
Yes, both she and Mulder were bad parents. We'd be agreed here if you
only realized that the fact that Mulder was the father made him a
parent.
>I didn't know why
> she didn't spare her poor mother a beating and just leave William on the
> doorstep so anyone who wanted him could take him, since she wasn't
> protecting him at all herself.
Because she was a moron. Like the writers during that season.
>And I remember thinking that if I were
> William, I'd be doing a heck of a lot more than just mentally moving my
> mobile. His mom totally ignores him when he cried.
Yes, his father takes off after he's a been home a day or two, and
mommy doesn't notice his existence until something terrible happens,
only to then give him up for adoption after she previously acted
desperate to have him -- or at least the idea of him. What a great
story. (note sarcasm)
> But um, what's your point. That Season 8 was bad. You hate it. You made a
> Season 8 voo doo doll and still stick pins in it? Good for you.
What is your point when you criticize Morgan and Wong's work later on?
Same thing.
Also, you brought up William, and I responded. Therefor, the question
lays with you as to what the point of bringing that up was. Oh, that's
right, you were "hurt" again -- I guess that's highly relevent as far
as Movie 2. Uh huh.
Further, I discussed the William issue after you brought it up because
it's a great example of Chris Carter -- the man you would prefer for a
second movie -- screwing up a storyline that you evidently think is
important to explore, possibly because of the way it was treated on
the show. I find it ironic that you would want the guy that caused the
mess in this regard to come back and "fix" it even though much of his
solution of fixing it broadly was to get rid of the kid he previously
acted as if was so important because he had no use for him as a
gimmick any longer -- in other words, one could easily argue that in
Carter's mind the issue is settled and he *did* fix or deal woth it
properly already. Show's how screwed up everything was the last couple
years.
>If the
> entire XF had been like Season 8, it wouldn't have lasted until Season 8.
> If the entire XF had been like Season 8, we wouldn't be contemplating a
> second movie.
So I guess you actually admit there were BIG problems? That's all I've
ever said, and I don't trust the man behind those problems. Just as
you don't trust Morgan and Wong.
>But the entire XF was not like Season 8,
And the entirety of Morgan and Wong's work was not made up of season
4.
>so if there's a
> second movie, I'd trust CC with it before I'd trust M & W -- which is not to
> say I hate them.
You mean the way I don't hate Chris Carter, right?
>I don't have voo doo dolls myself.
Who does? An irrational implication/accusation.
>And I don't think them
> talentless either.
So? You want a prize?
>They are extremely talented, but in a quirky way that
> tends to put me off almost as much as it draws me in.
Yes, I know, you're easily hurt. Maybe you should just be more careful
as far as what you watch.
>
> >
> > Well, it looks like I truly hit one of your hot buttons with that
> > example of a good episode, huh?
>
> No. I had nothing to say about NA at all when you first brought it up, but
> then you kept insisting I address it, so I did.
I insisted beacuse you kept on insisting that Mirgan and Wing were
only interested in surface "moments" and that you needed more than
that. NA has moer, but you dislike what it has more of.
>I only wish it had been
> more than good episode. I wish it had been a good XF episode.
It was.
>
>
> > What does what Morgan and Wong did in season 4 have to do with Movie
> > 2? Your throwing away your own argument that started this entire
> > debate. Nice job!
>
> No you started the entire debate because you can't bear to have someone
> disagree with you.
You started it by disagreeing with me in the first place. You quoted
my post, and then I did the same thing back to you -- thing is that
technically you started it by disagreeing with me.
You brought up your dislike for their work through later seasons.
Evidently that's off limits according to you as far as Carter.
>M & W are not my favorite XF writers. They were ok (and
> in places superlative) in the first season and ok in part of the second
> season, but overall their view of the MSR does not jive with my own.
How does your viwe of Morgan and Wong's woprk relate to the movie any
more than my perspective on Carter's? You still have not answered
this, but it's obvious that you're a hypocrite on this issue since you
did the same thing to start this debate with me you actually had the
nerve to question me on (i.e. looking at someobody's past work to
judge them as far as Movie 2).
>You don't like
> to hear that and I'm sorry that he disappointed you so much, but I just
> can't feel the venom. I don't ban him for life, the way you do. But then
> again, I wouldn't ban M & W for life either. Michele
I'd ban him from a second movie, just as you have stated you'd do in
relation to a second movie as far as Morgan And Wong. No more venom
from mr than there is from you -- I don't have to like Carter any
more, or even as much, as you do Morgan and Wong as far as the
X-files. It doesn't mean I want to crucify him.
Now, I've had quite enough of this as you have proven yourself to be a
totally dishonest and illogical debater, that simply is not worth
bothering with from this time on. So if you're replying for my
benefit, don't bother, as I will not read another one of replies on
this issue let alone answer it.