Wiseguy Jumps the Shark & Other Thoughts
Doug Ashford
JumpingtheShark <http://www.jumpingtheshark.com>, a site devoted to that
moment during a TV series when you realize that it's all downhill from
here.
A few people thought the series never jumped the shark, some thought it
headed downhill after Sonny Steelgrave or Mel Profitt died (or when
Jerry Lewis guest-starred), but the consensus seemed to be "when Ken
Wahl got fat".
2). With "The Simpsons" running in syndication everywhere, I wonder if
anybody else has caught the gratutious Ken Wahl reference in one of the
episodes? Actually, the episode is "This Little Wiggy", when Bart
befriends Ralph Wiggum and goes on an adventure through the city with
Chief Wiggum's master key. According to clicktv.com, it's playing on a
few stations in the next couple weeks (including next Wed. in Boston at
7:30pm on Channel 25).
3). I've always loved Jonathan Banks' work, so I try to catch his movies
when they show up on cable. I saw "Proximity" last week, a decent but
predictable prison drama from a couple years ago starring Rob Lowe
(Banks got second billing). The only thing coming up is "Foolish" on
Showtime, starring Andrew Dice Clay. This could be rough going.
Doug
SimeonSite
>{snip}
>3). I've always loved Jonathan Banks' work, so I try to catch his movies
>when they show up on cable. I saw "Proximity" last week, a decent but
>predictable prison drama from a couple years ago starring Rob Lowe
>(Banks got second billing). The only thing coming up is "Foolish" on
>Showtime, starring Andrew Dice Clay. This could be rough going.
Foolish is a Bad movie. Bad Bad Bad Bad Bad.
Bad as in realizing you'll never get that hour and
a half of your life back.
Stacey (remove "eth" to email)
Paul Giamatti Fan Site: http://members.tripod.com/SimeonSite
Will
> some thought it
> headed downhill after Sonny Steelgrave or Mel Profitt died (or when
> Jerry Lewis guest-starred), but the consensus seemed to be "when Ken
> Wahl got fat".
The fact is this was not a very good series from Day 1. Typical
mid-level Cannell. Big problem was lack of polish, clearly this stuff
was thrown together in great haste.
But in the midst of the mediocrity there were some wonderful things
going on that made it fascinating to watch. Fascinating still, today.
I don't think there was "a moment." Gradually, it became harder and
harder to overcome the force of gravity and keep those balls juggling
in the air.
But clearly the moment they tried, so ineptly, to recapture the
Wahl/Sharkey magic in the dream/hallucination sequence brought into
focus that the people running this show had no idea what was making it
work so well.
JennaStan
>But clearly the moment they tried, so ineptly, to recapture the
>Wahl/Sharkey magic in the dream/hallucination sequence brought into
>focus that the people running this show had no idea what was making it
>work so well.
I didn't like the overly simplistic conclusion to Vinnie's guilt. Sonny was a
bad person who was responsible for his own demise, and then Vinnie banishes him
with a smile on his face. Sonny was a bad person, and he killed himself, but
that wasn't the entire story.
Remorse isn't that easy to shed, and even though I hated what that Lynchboro
arc did to Vinnie, I'm glad Sonny loomed for the final time. The Steelgrave arc
had a resonance tarnished by White Lies.
Did Court TV cut out any scenes with Pete? Why was Pete brought back just to
dribble and work for the halluciSonny?
I think you're right about Wiseguy never being a "good" series. IMO the
strengths came from key relationships or strong characters in each arc, and the
show fell apart when these relationships weren't present. Jerry Lewis did
nothing to make Wiseguy jump a shark, because the Rag Trade arc had harrowing,
beautifully realized bonds between several people, and a wrenching story for
Raglin.
Another error was the increasing manic presentation. BROAD characterazations,
wildly outlandish segments to draw attention, and a total lapse from reality.
This just slaughtered the Public Poison arc, if a casual viewer saw those shows
first they'd never want to watch again.
I really think Vinnie's downward spiral began to hurt Wiseguy by the third
season, not the size of his waistline. A line of angst is crossed at a certain
point; that line had been ripped to pieces by the time of Vinnie's confession
to Eddie Bracken.
The show could've continued forward without Ken, if the right lead had been
cast, if the times were different. I haven't seen the season 4 shows, I don't
know if Steven Bauer was an accapetable replacement, but Vinnie had become as
much a liability as a necessity.
Nadia Sernas
> Will <nos...@noway.com> writes:
>
> >But clearly the moment they tried, so ineptly, to recapture the
> >Wahl/Sharkey magic in the dream/hallucination sequence brought into
> >focus that the people running this show had no idea what was making it
> >work so well.
Jenna, I don't think there was any Wahl/Sharkey magic.There wasn't
anything special about this relationship that was not also special
about relationships between characters on other shows. Because Vinnie
was a very sympathetic person, he allowed Sonny to manipulate him,
which resulted in Vinnie never getting over Sonny's suicide.
I agree that there is no simplistic way of purging such an experience.
White Noise suggested that Vinnie dealt with Sonny in a few days
through lithium and dreams of making him gone. This is naive. One can
never get over such experiences - only learn to live with them.
I totally agree with you here. When you're talking about a Stephen J.
Cannell show, you're talking about guns, useless women, and car
chases. You can always tell a Cannell episode from a David J. Burke
episode. Cannell episodes are like the pilot to Wiseguy. David J.
Burke episodes are full of provocative, intelligent dialogue and
characterizations. Susan Profitt was a Cannell creation - a beautiful,
supportive sister who was supposed to be a border-line genius, but who
never seemed more powerful than a female executive assitant. No One
Gets Out of Here Alive was a David J. Burke episode - full of ideas
that make the viewer think.
I also agree with your comments about the Rag Trade arc. It was
wrenching, and was the most personal story Wiseguy ever told. I loved
John Raglin.
Nadia
Will
> I don't think there was any Wahl/Sharkey magic.There wasn't
> anything special about this relationship that was not also special
> about relationships between characters on other shows. Because Vinnie
> was a very sympathetic person, he allowed Sonny to manipulate him,
> which resulted in Vinnie never getting over Sonny's suicide.
Magic between the characters is another issue, and I think you have an
interesting take on that.
Ken Wahl and Ray Sharkey are the names of the actors who played the
characters in the series.
"Wahl/Sharkey magic" would seem to refer to a chemistry between the
actors that displayed itself on the screen (as opposed to "Vinnie/Sonny
magic"). Whether it was a question of acting styles meshing, or the
personalities of the actors sparking something, I don't know. But the
magic was there.
In addition to my having noticed, hundreds of critics and fans remarked
on it at the time. Both actors also used these or similar words.
JennaStan
>
>> >But clearly the moment they tried, so ineptly, to recapture the
>> >Wahl/Sharkey magic in the dream/hallucination sequence brought into
>> >focus that the people running this show had no idea what was making it
>> >work so well.
>
>Jenna, I don't think there was any Wahl/Sharkey magic.
I didn't write that.
There wasn't
>anything special about this relationship that was not also special
>about relationships between characters on other shows. Because Vinnie
>was a very sympathetic person, he allowed Sonny to manipulate him,
>which resulted in Vinnie never getting over Sonny's suicide.
I don't think the relationship was ever that simple. Sonny manipulated Vinnie,
but he confided in him, tried to avenge crimes against him, and really grew to
love and depend on him. He trusted him. Sonny had 2 or more strong hunches that
Vinnie was a fed (like the limo conversation after they searched Vinnie's
computer), and he went against every instinct he had by letting Vinnie live.
>David J.
>Burke episodes are full of provocative, intelligent dialogue and
>characterizations. Susan Profitt was a Cannell creation - a beautiful,
>supportive sister who was supposed to be a border-line genius, but who
>never seemed more powerful than a female executive assitant. No One
>Gets Out of Here Alive was a David J. Burke episode - full of ideas
>that make the viewer think.
I think you're right overall, even though David wrote several episodes that
were tedious, filled with cute, meaningless psychological quirks and endless
conversation. I really think this overemphasis on psychology were damaging to a
few arcs. DC, and certainly Dead Dog.
And Cannell went too far in the other direction; action at the expense of the
characters.
IMO Cannell set Susan up to have potential, and in Fascination for the Flame,
she did. It was the later writers who crippled her.
The plight of Wiseguy women traveled from writer to writer. I detested the
women who arrived only to be raped, rescued, or driven insane. Why bother?
Didn't they realize how hollow the traumas became?
>I also agree with your comments about the Rag Trade arc. It was
>wrenching, and was the most personal story Wiseguy ever told. I loved
>John Raglin.
I loved most of that arc, especially David Sternberg and Carol Goldman. Her
actions in her last scenes were a violation of every moment she had up to then.
Just a fast way to write her out.
Nadia Sernas
> >Jenna, I don't think there was any Wahl/Sharkey magic.
>
> I didn't write that.
I apologize, Jenna. I obviously read the post incorrectly...
> I don't think the relationship was ever that simple. Sonny manipulated Vinnie,
> but he confided in him, tried to avenge crimes against him, and really grew to
> love and depend on him. He trusted him. Sonny had 2 or more strong hunches that
> Vinnie was a fed (like the limo conversation after they searched Vinnie's
> computer), and he went against every instinct he had by letting Vinnie live.
Yes, he loved Vinnie, but doesn't everyone who gets close to Vinnie?
Vinnie inspires those feelings in others - they trust him, go to him
with problems,
always depend on him. You do make a valid point that Sonny went
against his instincts
to finally trust Vinnie.
The Sonny/Vinnie magic, chemistry, relationship, or whatever: I well
remember critics' reactions
to the "magic", but to my mind, Vinnie simply didn't exist when Sonny
was around. No matter what
the viewer thought of Sharkey's performance, Sonny dominated our tv
screens with his rolling eyes,
manic gestures and 1940's-style gangster persona. Vinnie didn't even
begin to emerge until "The Marriage
of Heaven & Hell and No One Gets Out of Here Alive, when his authority
as a character at last gets our
notice. And, he had much more emotionally rich relationships with
Roger and Frank than he did with Sonny.
It was guilt over betrayal of a friend that forever bound him to
Sonny.
I really think this overemphasis on psychology were damaging to a
> few arcs. DC, and certainly Dead Dog.
Absolutely right, but remember that Dead Dog, which aired during the
sweeps rating period, came about
through pressure from CBS to make the show flashier and easier to
understand. Except for a few bits, I'm not
a fan of Dead Dog. The arc was originally supposed to be about a
television network - which Burke and Wahl
really wanted to do. Eventually, Burke decided not to bite the hand
that was feeding him.
> The plight of Wiseguy women traveled from writer to writer. I detested the
> women who arrived only to be raped, rescued, or driven insane. Why bother?
> Didn't they realize how hollow the traumas became?
Very true. Except for maybe Amber Twine, they're all unbalanced.
Katherine Gallagher was the last straw. However,
I prefer all of those harsh, ambitious, suicidal women over Angela
from the White Supremacy arc. Ugh. She
undid her blouse to attract Vinnie, and was sickeningly-sweet and
supportive, treating him like a baby.
She reminds me of those girls in high school who will do or say
anything to please a boy. Angela set the women's
movement back 30 years! Thank God for Carol Goldman after that!
> I loved most of that arc, especially David Sternberg and Carol Goldman. Her
> actions in her last scenes were a violation of every moment she had up to then.
> Just a fast way to write her out.
Yes! Why does everyone have to die on Wiseguy?
Nadia
JennaStan
>Yes, he loved Vinnie, but doesn't everyone who gets close to Vinnie?
Most who get close to Vinnie die, are shot, become a grief-stricken wreck, or
go insane, LOL. I think the few who managed not to should hold a reunion every
year.
>The Sonny/Vinnie magic, chemistry, relationship, or whatever: I well
>remember critics' reactions
>to the "magic", but to my mind, Vinnie simply didn't exist when Sonny
>was around. No matter what
>the viewer thought of Sharkey's performance, Sonny dominated our tv
>screens with his rolling eyes,
>manic gestures and 1940's-style gangster persona.
But Vinnie was Sonny's grounding force. Aside from the difference in acting
styles of Tim Currey and Ray Sharkey, I really think that Vinnie kept Sonny
from being the "dominating" that you describe, the dominating of Newquay.
IMO Vinnie is present throughout the Steelgrave arc. This is where his constant
need to save, or, like Frank said, "pick up strays", begins.
Vinnie sees feds around him killed (that Annette Bening character), sees his
harridan of a mother assaulted because of Sonny's hoods (one of the DUMBEST
plot contrivances), sees Sonny violating Vinnie's code of fair play, but he
also sees the good in Sonny. That's set up from the brilliant shot at the end
of the pilot: Vinnie beams when Sonny says he's taking him off the limo route,
because he's infiltrating a higher rung. Then his smile fades, as he realizes
that this man he's grown to enjoy is the man whose life and business he'll be
destroying.
And it's Vinnie's frustration with knowing the law is good, crime is bad, but
seeing with his own eyes that crime avenged his dead cousin, and how law can
cripple and maliciously destroy, that is carried with him throughout the entire
series.
>And, he had much more emotionally rich relationships with
>Roger and Frank than he did with Sonny.
He didn't begin having the deep emotional relationship with Frank until seasons
2 and 3. He and Roger were close, but not in the same manner that Vinnie and
Sonny were. Sonny was Vinnie's temptation, Vinnie's teacher. Roger was Vinnie's
dark mirror, and he and Vinnie taught each other.
>The arc was originally supposed to be about a
>television network - which Burke and Wahl
>really wanted to do. Eventually, Burke decided not to bite the hand
>that was feeding him.
I'm happy they didn't go for networks, this probably would have been the
Wiseguy version of Network. Wiseguy plummetted when it tried making grand,
sweeping gestures on a political or social theme.
>
>Very true. Except for maybe Amber Twine, they're all unbalanced.
Amber went hysterical at the end. I understood, but I hated their breakup
involving her screaming and crying hysterically. I haven't seen her last
episode, she has a better exit, doesn't she?
>Katherine Gallagher was the last straw.
I loathed her, and I didn't like the actress. Katherine wouldn't have been
there if the producers or the network didn't have to have the damsel in
distress. She had an awful exit, unintentionally funny.
You didn't mention Lacey, from Lynchboro. Perhaps she was another "stand by
your man" gal, but I liked her fire. She argued with men as equals, she loved
Volchek without fawning or bowing to him, she admitted weakness without
descending into babbling madness, she ran Lynchboro, she fought as hard as
Roger or Frank to end Volchek's grip on Lynchboro. And she got a happy ending!
>Yes! Why does everyone have to die on Wiseguy?
Laziness. Very unworthy of Carol.
Doug Ashford
>
> 2). With "The Simpsons" running in syndication everywhere, I wonder if
> anybody else has caught the gratutious Ken Wahl reference in one of the
> episodes? Actually, the episode is "This Little Wiggy", when Bart
> befriends Ralph Wiggum and goes on an adventure through the city with
> Chief Wiggum's master key.
I just saw the episode: in the the scene where Bart and Ralph sneak past
the room where Chief Wiggum is watching TV, we hear the TV announcer
(Harry Shearer, of course) say: "We now return to 'The Return of the
Pink Panther Returns', starring Ken Wahl as Inspector Clouseau."
I assume this is a reference to the poorly-received "Son of the Pink
Panther", a 1993 attempt to revive the Pink Panther series with Roberto
Benigni replacing the late Peter Sellers. Why the Simpsons writers
chose Ken Wahl is beyond me -- maybe they thought he would be a
particularly bad casting choice. It IS pretty amusing to think about.
Doug
Nadia Sernas
> styles of Tim Currey and Ray Sharkey, I really think that Vinnie kept Sonny
> from being the "dominating" that you describe, the dominating of Newquay.
If Newquay dominated, it was in a bad way. Sharkey's performance was
at
the very least, entertaining. Maybe Curry thought he could get by on
the strength
of his english accent and bring a little "class" to the proceedings. I
thought he was
smug, hammy, vulgar - you name it. His work demeaned the show.
> IMO Vinnie is present throughout the Steelgrave arc. This is where his constant
> need to save, or, like Frank said, "pick up strays", begins.
Yes, that's true. But I love the scene in NOGOOHA, during "Good
Lovin'", when
Vinnie falls into the chair, stunned by Sonny's behaviour. It's the
point where I begin
to see him really taking charge. I can't explain why this is.
> Then his smile fades, as he realizes
> that this man he's grown to enjoy is the man whose life and business he'll be
> destroying.
That's Vinnie for you (not a criticism - I like him). He would havehad
to have been told
over and over again in training that it would happen. I wonder if he
lost his focus?
> And it's Vinnie's frustration with knowing the law is good, crime is bad, but
> seeing with his own eyes that crime avenged his dead cousin, and how law can
> cripple and maliciously destroy, that is carried with him throughout the entire
> series.
Makes you wonder why Vinnie stayed in the game!!!!
> He didn't begin having the deep emotional relationship with Frank until seasons
> 2 and 3. He and Roger were close, but not in the same manner that Vinnie and
> Sonny were. Sonny was Vinnie's temptation, Vinnie's teacher. Roger was Vinnie's
> dark mirror, and he and Vinnie taught each other.
I see Vinnie and Frank as bonding in the Profitt arc after Vinnie is
shot, in "Squeeze",
where Vinnie learns of Frank's relationship with Lilla, and Frank is
concerned with Vinnie
being homesick. That's followed by the scene at the lockers in
"Merchant of Death", where
they both express concern over their sexual indiscretions. They are
much closer in these
eps than in any of the Steelgrave arc.
I like the relationship impact of Smokey Mountain Requiem, Squeeze and
Phantom Pain. Roger is
afraid of Vinnie, because he knows he's in danger of confiding in him.
At the same time, he likes
and admires him. I love how he threatens to kill Herb, his boss of 15
years should
he have Vinnie killed!
> involving her screaming and crying hysterically. I haven't seen her last
> episode, she has a better exit, doesn't she?
Amber lost her edge for me when she fell for Vinnie. Her last episode
is "Sleepwalk", which
I don't care for. It could be argued that Vinnie rapes her in it, with
her permission. But I guess
that's how they wanted to portray their relationship. They go to a sex
therapist, and that scene
is very coy. The ep is very relationship-oriented in the way
thirtysomething and shows like it were
in the 80s. You can see that Wiseguy was trying everything to get a
bigger audience.
> You didn't mention Lacey, from Lynchboro.
Gosh, how could I forget Lacey?? She's the saving grace of season 3!
Loved the way she connected
with Roger! Interesting that she was basically set decoration,
swinging her purse and chewing gum until
Roger entered the picture. She was one smart cookie, unlike...
...Carol Goldman in the end. Why oh why, after being such a
ball-breaker did she do something as stupid
as seeing Pinzolo one last time. I apologize in advance for my
vulgarity, but if she had to die by Pinzolo's
hand, at least she could have been "on top".
Nadia
JennaStan
>If Newquay dominated, it was in a bad way. Sharkey's performance was
>at
>the very least, entertaining. Maybe Curry thought he could get by on
>the strength
>of his english accent and bring a little "class" to the proceedings. I
>thought he was
>smug, hammy, vulgar - you name it. His work demeaned the show.
I wouldn't go as far as demeaning, but he did present himself as a panther
sinking his fangs into various set pieces.
The writing is partially to blame. I never recovered from the announcement that
he was supposed to be in his 50's or 60's, but looked young because of
injections. What was the point? Why introduce a ludicrous element just to show
how feisty he was?
>
>Yes, that's true. But I love the scene in NOGOOHA, during "Good
>Lovin'", when
>Vinnie falls into the chair, stunned by Sonny's behaviour. It's the
>point where I begin
>to see him really taking charge. I can't explain why this is.
I love that scene too, along with their huge, epic battle across the aisles,
and, naturally, Nights in White Satin.
>Makes you wonder why Vinnie stayed in the game!!!!
I guess the life of an agent was a compulsion. This is a problem I began having
by season 3. I had no idea why Vinnie wanted to stay an agent. Perhaps to spend
less time with his mother?
>I see Vinnie and Frank as bonding in the Profitt arc after Vinnie is
>shot, in "Squeeze",
>where Vinnie learns of Frank's relationship with Lilla, and Frank is
>concerned with Vinnie
>being homesick. That's followed by the scene at the lockers in
>"Merchant of Death", where
>they both express concern over their sexual indiscretions. They are
>much closer in these
>eps than in any of the Steelgrave arc.
They grow closer, but I don't think they had their highest level of love and
trust for each other until Stairway to Heaven and White Noise.
Vinnie had a deep bond with Frank, very long-running. They were mutually
protective of each other, friends, Frank as a semi-parental figure and Vinnie
as Frank's confessor. Vinnie/Sonny weren't the same, they were different,
because that bond had a tenacity and explosive charge. Different, shorter, but
as powerful as Vinnie/Frank.
>I like the relationship impact of Smokey Mountain Requiem, Squeeze and
>Phantom Pain. Roger is
>afraid of Vinnie, because he knows he's in danger of confiding in him.
>At the same time, he likes
>and admires him. I love how he threatens to kill Herb, his boss of 15
>years should
>he have Vinnie killed!
I love Roger/Vinnie. LOVE them. I won't argue about the strength in their
relationship. I only argue that Vinnie/Sonny was as strong as this, and
Vinnie/Frank. 3 very different men with a brooding Italian in common.
>Amber lost her edge for me when she fell for Vinnie.
I believed in her goin to him, because she seemed to be the type of person who
needed a relationship to exist. Most of their courtship worked (I did hate her
actress friend, did she think she was on Broadway?), and then she becomes
another screaming mess when it's time for the fling to end.
Out of Vinnie's women, Amber is easily the best. Their sex at the beginning of
the second Turf Wars episode is some of the hottest I've ever seen, in
television or film.
>Interesting that she was basically set decoration,
>swinging her purse and chewing gum until
>Roger entered the picture. She was one smart cookie, unlike...
Do you think they changed her role because of Ken's departure? In his episodes,
they were building at Lacey falling for him. With Roger, they were attracted,
but they both had those icy exteriors, and she loved Volchek. I believed in her
love for Volchek, I give the actress more credit than the writers, but she was
a surprinsingly well-written female character for Wiseguy.
Nadia Sernas
> The writing is partially to blame. I never recovered from the announcement that
> he was supposed to be in his 50's or 60's, but looked young because of
> injections. What was the point? Why introduce a ludicrous element just to show
> how feisty he was?
I think it was to show how shallow these people are about their
appearance - remember that Susan went for a
blood doping in the Profitt arc. Apparently that a lamb cell
injections make you look younger. Plus, the writers'
perception of the music business was outdated for the late eighties.
> I love that scene too, along with their huge, epic battle across the aisles,
> and, naturally, Nights in White Satin.
Sigh. What a great ep that is!
> Vinnie had a deep bond with Frank, very long-running. They were mutually
> protective of each other, friends, Frank as a semi-parental figure and Vinnie
> as Frank's confessor. Vinnie/Sonny weren't the same, they were different,
> because that bond had a tenacity and explosive charge. Different, shorter, but
> as powerful as Vinnie/Frank.
Yes, remember when Vinnie said "Sonny lived for danger"? It must have
made
Vinnie feel on the edge all the time. Where as he went through all the
traumas
of everyday life with Frank - separation, illness, broken legs, etc.
It was a different
relationship, but one I responded to very much. That's kind of a sappy
scene when
Vinnie tells the comatose Frank that he can't imagine life without
him. But put
Sonny in that hospital bed instead of Frank. The scene would
definitely not work.
> I love Roger/Vinnie. LOVE them. I won't argue about the strength in their
> relationship. I only argue that Vinnie/Sonny was as strong as this, and
> Vinnie/Frank. 3 very different men with a brooding Italian in common.
Now I've changed my mind. I love Roger/Vinnie the best today...
> >Amber lost her edge for me when she fell for Vinnie.
> (I did hate her
> actress friend, did she think she was on Broadway?)
I hated all the stuff skewed to women viewers! Why do they think that
appeals to us? It was so obvious - an unnecessary. I deleted the
second
half of that ep by mistake and have never regretted it.
> Do you think they changed her role because of Ken's departure?
I really can't tell! I'm just glad that she became friends with Roger,
despite
that naughty dialogue between them at times. Loved that! But I loved
even
more that she stuck by Volcek. He was no Vinnie or Roger, but she
loved him,
and that's what counts.