Did Lynch & Frost REALLY know?
Peter Mahler
series and I taped all the episodes on their original run on ABC. I've
also seen FWWM many times.
I hope it isn't sacrilige to ask this question, but do any of you think
that during the making of the first season, Lynch & Frost didn't know
themselves who killed Laura? They say that they did, and I want to
believe that they did, but they really wanted to leave the whole thing
pretty ambiguous - I kind of wonder if they didn't "decide" upon Leland
when they realized they had to name the killer in the second season and
then started planting the serious clues. I do remember reading an
interview with Kyle M. in which he said that the original plan was not
to reveal the killer's identity at all, and that Lynch & Frost
"sold-out" to ABC by revealing poor Leland.
I hope I'm not offending anyone.
*Peter
David Thiel
>I hope it isn't sacrilige to ask this question, but do any of you think
>that during the making of the first season, Lynch & Frost didn't know
>themselves who killed Laura? They say that they did, and I want to
>believe that they did, but they really wanted to leave the whole thing
>pretty ambiguous - I kind of wonder if they didn't "decide" upon Leland
>when they realized they had to name the killer in the second season and
>then started planting the serious clues. I do remember reading an
>interview with Kyle M. in which he said that the original plan was not
>to reveal the killer's identity at all, and that Lynch & Frost
>"sold-out" to ABC by revealing poor Leland.
My opinion (and it's opinion only) that Lynch and Frost were pretty much
making it all up as they went. There were symbols that were never assigned a
meaning, much less a significance, within the series (the white horse, the
creamed corn and the possessed dresser knob come to mind). Others symbols
changed in meaning during the course of the show. For instance, the LMFAP's
dance in last Friday's BRAVO episode was supposed to be a clue to Leland/
BOB's identity. Then what does his dance in the final episode mean? There
are also bits that are flatly contradicted later. For example, when the
giant takes Cooper's ring, he gives three clues, and promises that he will
return the jewelry when Cooper finds them to be true. Cooper never
deciphers "the owls are not what they seem" (this is left to the audience),
yet the giant does indeed give back the ring.
It's hard to tell if these were matters which would've been brought up in
the third season (as the horse and the corn were in FWWM), or were
meaningless symbols created by Lynch and Co. to be assigned meaning as the
plot required, or if they were simply meant to be deliberately obscure (and
discussed endlessly in forums such as this).
David Thiel / Traffic Manager Phone: (217) 333-1070
WILL-TV / University of Illinois / Urbana Internet: d-t...@uiuc.edu
"They've taken a supreme oath of celibacy, like their fathers and their fathers
before them." --HOT SHOTS PART DEUX
Robert A. Gougher
t up as they went along, because she stopped watching around episode two, feeli
ng very jerked around. (We had this conversation a week before the second seaso
n premiere.) I responded that I indeed believed that they knew exactly who it w
as for the following reasons:
* Lynch really likes to explore the darkness underneath perfect America.
That targeted Laura's family.
* The funeral scene especially, and Lelands other fits of lunacy strongly
implicated him (IMO) from the beginning. (Yes, I told her I thought it was him
- believe it or not.)
* The diary itself, which came out before the second season started, also
points very strongly to Leland. After reading it, both my roomate and myself w
ere really suspicious of Leland, 'cause it sounded like something an abused chi
ld would write.
One more thing: (I haven't watched the episodes in a while, but...) I reme
mber noting that for about 2-3 weeks before the Maddy Dies episode, Leland is n
ot focused on as much as before - additionally, the Ben Horne thing is brought
up - kind of like a red herring.
I always considered the screenwriting pretty good in the way that it threw
about 15 alternatives in your face but, in retrospect, looks as if it did stay
the course. (It could be argued, however, that a good screenwriter could make
it up as he went along and have it look as I described.)
On another subject, did anyone start taping when the first season was repe
ated? I did, and the neat thing about it is, I also taped the commercials and s
urrounding news blurbs. The pilot is preceded by an ABC news flash saying that
Iraq has invaded kuwait. Almost every episode is preceded then by a desert Shie
ld/desert storm update, and I believe it winds up near the end of the series.
Kind of bizarre, eh? (By every episode, I mean every episode up to the 27th or
so.)
RG
Rich Haller
wrote:
> My opinion (and it's opinion only) that Lynch and Frost were pretty much
> making it all up as they went. There were symbols that were never assigned a
> meaning, much less a significance, within the series (the white horse, the
> creamed corn and the possessed dresser knob come to mind). Others symbols
> changed in meaning during the course of the show. For instance, the LMFAP's
> dance in last Friday's BRAVO episode was supposed to be a clue to Leland/
> BOB's identity. Then what does his dance in the final episode mean? There
> are also bits that are flatly contradicted later. For example, when the
> giant takes Cooper's ring, he gives three clues, and promises that he will
> return the jewelry when Cooper finds them to be true. Cooper never
> deciphers "the owls are not what they seem" (this is left to the audience),
> yet the giant does indeed give back the ring.
>
Not quite:
>G: ÒI will tell you three things. If I tell them to you and they come true, >then will you believe me?Ó
They all come true including the owl thing. Major Briggs shows Coop the
printout.
BTW, in the Northern Exposure script draft, the Giant says 'the owls are
not what you think'.
-Rich Haller <rha...@ns.uoregon.edu> University of Oregon, Eugene, OR,
USA
Rich Haller
(Peter Mahler) wrote:
>
> Let me start by saying that I really am a fan of Twin Peaks. I love the
> series and I taped all the episodes on their original run on ABC. I've
> also seen FWWM many times.
>
> I hope it isn't sacrilige to ask this question, but do any of you think
> that during the making of the first season, Lynch & Frost didn't know
> themselves who killed Laura? They say that they did, and I want to
> believe that they did, but they really wanted to leave the whole thing
> pretty ambiguous - I kind of wonder if they didn't "decide" upon Leland
I believe Frost who stated they knew from the first and intended to reveal
it eventually even though this wasn't the crux of the show but rather a
mcguffin to 'provide a spine' (Altman's "Twin Peaks Behind the Scenes").
Also, Ray Wise (Leland) said in an interview on 12/12/90 NPR's Fresh Air:
RW: I found out the morning after the Emmy Awards, this last summer. Mark
Frost and David Lynch called me up to their office. Actually, called
Ben Horne--Richard Beymer--and myself and Sheryl Lee, who played Laura
and Maddie Ferguson, up to the office, and we went into a small room
that was devoid of furniture. It was very dark.
This is true. With a kind of Lava Lamp in the corner--a Lava Lamp
waterfall as I recall. And David was sitting on the floor crosslegged
and so was Mark and so was Sheryl Lee. And Richard and I came in and
we sat down crosslegged. And David leaned over and put his hand on my
knee and he said, "It was you."
"It was always you, from Day One. It was you."
This sounds more authentic to me than Kyle's version (assuming Kyle was
quoted correctly). Note that Kyle wasn't there.
David L. Berk
the series again to try to find hints.
I noticed something interesting in the 3rd episode (the one most recently
aired on BRAVO). In the scene where Leland is dancing with Laura's
picture and the glass in the frame breaks, Leland smears blood all over
the picture. Sure, it's not really anything that you would think too
much of unless you are aware how things turn out in the end. But it is
interesting nonetheless.
--David
Carol Gaupp
Normally a lurker, I had to followup to this one. I'm avidly watching
the Twin Peaks repeats on Bravo. This is the first time I've seen the
early episodes since knowing 'who did it'. Seeing Leland is much more
ominous now. Watching him dance with Laura's picture made me think of his
'dance' with Maddy right before he killed her. And yes, Leland smearing
the blood on her picture had a different slant than last time.
Carol
Sean Vickery
>I hope it isn't sacrilige to ask this question, but do any of you think
>that during the making of the first season, Lynch & Frost didn't know
>themselves who killed Laura?
Recall the scene (in the second last episode of the first season)
where Leland is sitting in the dark in the lounge and observes Maddie
leaving the house, on her way to dupe Jacoby with James and Donna,
so they can retrieve the heart and tape from his place?
Seems to be a pretty strong hint that it was Leland/BOB who beat up
Jacoby, which would be inconsistent with his grief stricken/crazy
father image.
Also, there was a rumour (in this group) that Bob's face appeared in the
mirror of the Palmer residence in a scene at the end of the pilot. I
say a 'rumour', because my tape cuts out a couple of seconds too soon at
the end of this scene. (Mrs Palmer on couch, having a vision of Jacoby
taking the heart.)
--
Sean Vickery se...@cs.uq.edu.au
Joseph M. Geigel
>that during the making of the first season, Lynch & Frost didn't know
>themselves who killed Laura? They say that they did, and I want to
>believe that they did, but they really wanted to leave the whole thing
>pretty ambiguous -
I have the feeling that they had the whole story of Laura's death
in their mind from day one. I think that FWWM was the result of
putting all of the notes they had on the death onto film. When
I saw FWWM, I got the impression that the majority of plot of the
movie was written (mentally, if not on paper), before filming of
Twin Peaks ever started.
This seemed to be what was in the minds of Lynch and Frost when
they made the series...As for leaving it ambiguous, perhaps they
could have...After all, what they decided to let the public in on
via the series was entirely up to them. However, I think that
the events that led up to Laura's death was pretty clear in their
minds.
Just MHO.
-- jogle
Joseph M. Geigel
In article <14...@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> se...@cs.uq.edu.au (Sean Vickery) writes:
>
>Also, there was a rumour (in this group) that Bob's face appeared in the
>mirror of the Palmer residence in a scene at the end of the pilot. I
>say a 'rumour', because my tape cuts out a couple of seconds too soon at
>the end of this scene. (Mrs Palmer on couch, having a vision of Jacoby
>taking the heart.)
I'm not sure about the pilot, but Bob certainly makes an appearance
in the 2nd episode (Mrs. Palmer sees him behind the couch).
Not having seen these early episodes in a while, I had forgotten that
Bob had appeared so early on. More evidence to me that Lynch and
Frost knew exactly who killed Lauar and how.
- jogle
gei...@seasva.gwu.edu
BogusMan
According to the actor who played Bob <Interviewed in the "Fire Walk With Me"
issue of "Film Threat">, he had been hired as a set dresser. For the final
scenes of the pilot, he was handing "Mrs. Palmer" broken off cigarettes
for her to smoke in different takes. when they finisheed the first
good take, Lynch asked how it came out. The cameraman said it was great,
but you could see this guy in the mirror. Lynch smiled and said, "
We couldn't have Planned this better". So they knew that Bob killed Laura
pretty early on , and I think they then had to decide who Bob possessed,
and actually committed the crimes. I'd say they decided that pretty
soon after figuring out the Bob thing.
Pax
--Judex--
PS: But I also think they kjept themselves flexible enough to change
that if word had leaked out as to the killer. There was quite an
"Andy Did It" cult around here for a while. Ifd an article had been printed
that claimed that Leland did it, I think they would have changed it to
keep the element of suprise. I have heard that when some tabloid claimed
to know the killer's identity, the cast was ordered to shred their scripts,
and were given new ones.
Rich Haller
(BogusMan) wrote:
> PS: But I also think they kjept themselves flexible enough to change
> that if word had leaked out as to the killer. There was quite an
> "Andy Did It" cult around here for a while. Ifd an article had been printed
> that claimed that Leland did it, I think they would have changed it to
> keep the element of suprise. I have heard that when some tabloid claimed
> to know the killer's identity, the cast was ordered to shred their scripts,
> and were given new ones.
I don't think they would have changed if someone claimed Leland had done
it. They filmed versions with both Leland and Ben as the murders just to
keep even the cast guessing. My copy of the episode 2009 script has Ben
instead of Leland as the murderer and dying in Coops arms. If someone had
claimed Leland, I'll bet they would have arranged for someone else to get a
peak of a Ben script and make a counterclaim.
mathias thallmayer
: Pax
: --Judex--
: PS: But I also think they kjept themselves flexible enough to change
: that if word had leaked out as to the killer. There was quite an
: "Andy Did It" cult around here for a while. Ifd an article had been printed
: that claimed that Leland did it, I think they would have changed it to
: keep the element of suprise. I have heard that when some tabloid claimed
: to know the killer's identity, the cast was ordered to shred their scripts,
: and were given new ones.
__________________________
This reminds me of when Kyle was on Saturday Night Live. He was taking
questions from the audience and "revealed" that the killer was "Shelley
the waitress". Then he was called into the control room to take a phone
call from "David Lynch" (an undecipherable yelling voice). And he had
to go back in front of the audience and pretend it was a joke.
This was mildly amusing, but I liked the parody they did later more.
In that, Leo had confessed to the killing, they had physical evidence,
photographs, and videotape. Plus, about 5 notes he had written to Coop
confessing. Still, Cooper remained unconvinced.
--
Mathias
Robert A. Gougher
is innocent! <Laura Palmer music> <throws rock> <SMASH> Leo! You're free to go!
Rg
Ken Bays
Rich Haller <rha...@ns.uoregon.edu> writes:=
>My copy of the episode 2009 script has Ben instead of Leland
>as the murderer and dying in Coops arms.
Whoa... really? I, for one, would LOVE to see how Lynch scripted
this scene. Would you or anyone who has this be willing to type
it up and post it here? Please?!?
Ken
not the only dust my mother raised
Jan Bielawski
<mirror of the Palmer residence in a scene at the end of the pilot. I
<say a 'rumour', because my tape cuts out a couple of seconds too soon at
<the end of this scene. (Mrs Palmer on couch, having a vision of Jacoby
<taking the heart.)
I guess the reason many people have trouble seeing this is that Bob's
reflection is visible way up, near the edge of the picture. Most TV sets
overscan too much to include this within the picture tube. Until there is
a digital TV standard adopted we have to live with this sort of BS.
The "Video Standard" test laserdisc can give one an idea of how badly
the picture is usually compromised by factory settings.
Jan Bielawski
Computervision, San Diego
j...@cvsd.cv.com
Rich Haller
It looks to be exactly the same, only Ben gets shoved into the cell. This
is sort of a give away because while shoving Leland in at the last minute
is a surprise, there is no need to do so with Ben who has already been in
and out of jail and has shown no sign of trying to escape after his initial
resistence (plus he is handcuffed).
Everthing after that point is virtually identical except it is Ben in the
cell, not Leland and they omit the line 'I killed my daughter' when Leland
starts remembering. Everything else is there (maybe some very minor
changes) as it appeared on the screen.
BTW, Lynch didn't have writer credits, it was Frost, Payton, and Engels,
though he usually makes plenty of changes as he directs.
Jan Bielawski
<
<
<Rich Haller <rha...@ns.uoregon.edu> writes:=
<
< >My copy of the episode 2009 script has Ben instead of Leland
< >as the murderer and dying in Coops arms.
<
<Whoa... really? I, for one, would LOVE to see how Lynch scripted
<this scene. Would you or anyone who has this be willing to type
<it up and post it here? Please?!?
Ben's name instead of Leland's was put in the screenplay probably to
keep the identity of Laura's killer secret. Remember similar trick
with the famous Japanese actor Fumio Yamaguchi in the 2nd season? :-)
Bob Ingria
My opinion (and it's opinion only) that Lynch and Frost were pretty much
making it all up as they went. There were symbols that were never assigned a
meaning, much less a significance, within the series (the white horse, the
creamed corn and the possessed dresser knob come to mind).
I think it's incorrect to call these things symbols; they were images
that (most probably) Lynch found interesting purely as images. I
don't believe that they were ever intended to have a fixed meaning,
although some turned into motifs used in roughly the same context
(e.g. the White/Pale horse typically appeared when Leland gave Sarah
the drugged bedtime milk).
Now, depending on whether you're willing/eager to have purely visual
images in what you watch, this aspect of TP may either delight or
infuriate you, or simply be accepted as part of Lynch's style. I
don't think it's fair to criticize Lynch and co. for not doing
something they never set out to do. On the other hand, if one
doesn't like such uninterpreted images, it's quite reasonable to
dislike Lynch's style or at least be put off by this aspect of it.
--
-30-
Bob Ingria
Bob Ingria
This is also the scene where Sarah Palmer shouts ``what is going on in
this house?'' with the sort of exasperation that indicates that
something was wrong long before Laura's death. (And in FWWM, we get
to see some of it, some indication of the day to day trials and
tribulations of the Palmer family.)
--
-30-
Bob Ingria
Bob Ingria
Ben's name instead of Leland's was put in the screenplay probably to
keep the identity of Laura's killer secret. Remember similar trick
with the famous Japanese actor Fumio Yamaguchi in the 2nd season? :-)
Speaking of which, I realized why it is that Catherine reveals herself
as the Japanese buyer to Ben by removing her foot from her shoe. In
one of Ben and Catherine's trysts, one of the things Ben does is to
kiss Catherine's foot. So, they have come full circle.
--
-30-
Bob Ingria
Rich Haller
It's the one where they arrest the OAM, Andy drops his gun, and Ben
suddenly decides it's time to 'wash little elvis'. It has a nice double
symbolism since it emphasizes at the same time who is in the drivers seat.
Rich Haller
> that (most probably) Lynch found interesting purely as images. I
> don't believe that they were ever intended to have a fixed meaning,
> although some turned into motifs used in roughly the same context
> (e.g. the White/Pale horse typically appeared when Leland gave Sarah
> the drugged bedtime milk).
>
> Now, depending on whether you're willing/eager to have purely visual
> images in what you watch, this aspect of TP may either delight or
> infuriate you, or simply be accepted as part of Lynch's style. I
> don't think it's fair to criticize Lynch and co. for not doing
> something they never set out to do. On the other hand, if one
> doesn't like such uninterpreted images, it's quite reasonable to
> dislike Lynch's style or at least be put off by this aspect of it.
> --
> -30-
> Bob Ingria
I agree with Bob. Lynch began as a painter and still paints. He has a
painterly rather than a literary or dramatic approach to film making. In my
opinion, he works primarily by intuition and inspiration rather than
aristotelean logic. If a compelling image comes to him, it goes in there
because it must, whether he can give a verbal 'reason' for it or not. In a
work like TP that in its totality is a series form, you can't go back and
undo a previous episode like you can paint over part of a painting in
progress. Rather than compromise a powerful image to make it consistent
with an earlier one, he will put it out there the way it feels right to him
at the time of creation.
He isn't totally nonverbal, probably because he realizes that such an
approach just won't sell, and he is interested in getting his work before
the public. Contrast his later work with Eraserhead, a film made under
excrutiating financial restrictions. I wouldn't be surprised if he figures,
'once is enough'. As I recall, he still thinks that Eraserhead is his only
perfect work, and example of what he really wants to do in film.
-Rich Haller <rha...@ns.uoregon.edu> University of Oregon, Eugene, OR,
USA
"I am not a film critic, but I pretend to be one on Usenet."
Dean Carlson
> <Rich Haller <rha...@ns.uoregon.edu> writes:=
> <
> < >My copy of the episode 2009 script has Ben instead of Leland
> < >as the murderer and dying in Coops arms.
> <
> <Whoa... really? I, for one, would LOVE to see how Lynch scripted
> <this scene. Would you or anyone who has this be willing to type
> <it up and post it here? Please?!?
>
> Ben's name instead of Leland's was put in the screenplay probably to
> keep the identity of Laura's killer secret. Remember similar trick
> with the famous Japanese actor Fumio Yamaguchi in the 2nd season? :-)
>
> Jan Bielawski
whole "Twin Peaks" crew with Ben in it and another with only a
select few with Leland in it.
So yes, David Lynch was up to his old tricks again.
Dean
Bob Ingria
He isn't totally nonverbal, probably because he realizes that such an
approach just won't sell, and he is interested in getting his work before
the public. Contrast his later work with Eraserhead, a film made under
excrutiating financial restrictions. I wouldn't be surprised if he figures,
'once is enough'.
It's interesting that while some of the critics of TP slammed it for
being too weird, there was a review of TP (and Wild at Heart) in
Tikkun that slammed TP for compromising Lynch's surrealism. (One of
the things the author mentioned was the scene when Harry and Cooper
went to the bank and opened Laura's safety deposit box. There is a
deer (?) head on the table and the bank clerk explains: ``It fell
down.'' The author felt that this explanation blunted the surrealism
of the image, by providing a rationale for the head being on the
table.)
As I recall, he still thinks that Eraserhead is his only
perfect work, and example of what he really wants to do in film.
I recently saw _Eraserhead_ during a theatrical revival and was
surprised to notice the odd tree on the night-table in Henry's (?)
apartment. It was very similar to the tree in Lynch's _The
Grandmother_, which is about a young boy who basically grows himself a
new grandmother. I wonder if there isn't this store of primal images
that Lynch has, which he fully deployed in _Eraserhead_, and which he
more sparingly mixes into his other works (the Lodge/Waiting Room is
very reminiscent of the lobby in _Eraserhead_, for instance).
--
-30-
Bob Ingria
kristin king
I'm asking because my mom thinks she went to school
with him.
email replies to me, please.
--
| kak...@peruvian.cs.utah.edu |
| Wire briar, limber lock. / Six geese in a flock. / One flew |
| east. / One flew west. / One flew over the cuckoo's nest. |
Robert A. Gougher
h School in Falls Church, Virginia. This was after he had lived in Boise,Idaho
and also near Spokane, Washington. I believe he was born in Mozula (-2. sp.) Mo
ntana.
Rob