Still more Buffy...
Patrick MM
going to be writing New X-Men, the comic, starting pretty soon. I think this
should be phenomenal, since as it's gone along, Buffy has become more and
more like the best X-Men comics, essentially a soap opera about superpowered
people fighting evil and saving the world. Buffy used witchcraft as a
metaphor for coming out as gay quite a bit in season 4 and 5, and that's
exactly the sort of things that the X-Men premise allows for. And from what
I've seen of season 6, it looks like we've got a little Dark Phoenix going
on. I think it's got huge potential, and just getting monthly Joss is going
to be great. Plus the artist on the book is going to be John Cassaday, who
does Planetary, and is one of my favorite comic artists. So, that should be
some good stuff.
Anyway, since the last post, I've gone through about another season of
Buffy, from I was Made to Love You up to Dead Things. Spoilers for those
episodes. And, here's the report.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
First, The Body was amazing. I already knew that Joyce would die in the
episode, but that didn't matter. I've never seen anything on TV, or in film,
that captured the experience of losing someone so well. While the Buffy
stuff was all great, I really responded to the scene with the rest of the
gang. Their concerns about being unable to face Buffy were very real. The
Anya speech was one of the most powerful things I've ever heard. Just
brilliant. The Buffy/Tara awkward moment, completely true to life. I'm
unsure about having the vampire appear at the end of the episode, but on the
whole, it's still a really great episode.
I thought Forever was a pretty weak episode. Spike's speech about Joyce was
great, but it felt like just more of the same, but much worse, compared to
The Body. Obviously, they needed to linger on Joyce's death for more than
one episode, but it was a bit weak.
The episode with the Buffy bot was hilarious. I feel like they're getting
really cheap pops by doing multiple versions of the same character episodes
(Dopplegangland, The Replacement), but they're still great. And, the work
with Spike in this episode was great yet again.
The end of season five was really solid. Those knights were a bit
ridiculous, but the final arc was great on the whole, largely because of
Spike. His character arc was really well done. Of particular note, are the
"You treat me like a man" scene in The Gift, and his crying after Buffy's
death.
I'm not the biggest fan of Glory, she never had the personality of The Mayor
or Spike/Dru, but she was a better villain than The Initiative, and all the
threads of the season came together nicely in the season finale. The Gift
was a really epic episode. More than in any other episode of the show, it
really felt like the entire world was at stake, and there were a lot of
great character moments throughout.
I'll have to wait until the end of the year to make a final judgment, but so
far season six has been the best of the show since the second half of season
two. Bargaining and Life Serial felt a bit too padded, but there were a lot
of great moments in there. Willow's spell was really surprising, and set the
tone for things to come nicely. Plus, Spike's sensitive wait for Buffy was
great.
Willow's magic addiction storyline has been excellent so far. Her use of the
forget spell on Tara was great, and the scenes with Rack were another
highlight. While it may have been a bit too stereotypical drug storyline, it
was visually phenomenal, and just seeing Willow in that situation made the
cliche new. The character evolution for Willow has to be one of the show's
greatest accomplishments. She's almost completely different from the season
one character, but it's felt like a natural evolution, like she really has
changed, so there's no need for her Restless fear that it's all just a
put-on. However, I'm sort of annoyed that Tara isn't on as much now that
they've broken up, since Tara has also become one of my favorite
characters. I don't know why, she just brings joy to me when she's onscreen.
Once More With Feeling was absolutely amazing, my second favorite episode of
the show, behind Restless. First off, the plot developments were all great,
and even without the songs, it would have probably been a really good
episode. But add the songs in and you've got a really magical piece of art.
I think the musical gets a bad rap becuase most musicals are awful, with
simplistic plots, and uninteresting songs. However, at its core, it's a
wonderful format, and this episode used the heightened emotion of the
musical to make a realky engrossing piece of television. Nearly every song
was phenomenal. "I'm Under Your Spell" is my favorite, and the "You make me
complete" implied oral sex scene was just beautiful. The Tara/Giles duet in
the shop was great, "Walk through the Fire" was amazing, and "Something to
Sing About" was another highlight. But the real greatness of it was in the
combination of plot advancement and amazing songs. Every single storyline
was completely upended by the musical. I am in awe of that episode still.
Spike's been my favorite character on the show since season 2, so seeing him
and Buffy finally get together was pretty entertaining. I was completely
stunned by the sex scene in Smashed, and the falling through the floor was a
nice touch. All the Spike/Buffy sex scenes so far have felt really dirty,
and I sympathize with Buffy's disgust at herself for going along with it.
I think season six has toned down Spike's righteousness a bit. I was really
happy with the noble Spike of the end of season five and Bargaining, but I
think it's more in character for him to have a bit of an edge. I really like
the fact that he's want Buffy's love, not just her sex.
I still think that Buffy's death was a bit of a gimmick, but her return has
been dealt with really well. I love her embrace of Spike's darkness, and
her guilt about it. The scene where she breaks down to Tara in Dead Things
was amazing. It's a nice twist on Buffy's usual complaint that she can't
have a normal life, and ties into her fear of her primal force from
Restless. I really want to see what the rest of the gang thinks of her
involvement with Spike.
I'm actually a big fan of the Warren/Jonathan/Andrew triumvirate. They seem
like the sort of characters who would be hated by fans, but I think they're
hilarious so far. With Willow and Buffy both so close to the darkness,
having a massive villainous threat would take away from that. I like the way
that the lack of a major threat leaves Buffy without purpose. She can't
unite behind trying to bust Glory or the Mayor, she has to face her inner
demons. However, in Dead Things, those three villains were taken up a notch,
and I'm anticipating really interesting conflicts later in the year. These
are the first real human villains on the show, and the moral implications of
that are far reaching.
So, I really need to see the rest of the show right now. More report later.
Patrick
Mikko Pihkoluoma
I've said it before and I'll say it again: 'The Body' is by far the best
consecutive 40 minutes of television I have ever seen.
> I thought Forever was a pretty weak episode. Spike's speech about Joyce
> was great, but it felt like just more of the same, but much worse,
> compared to The Body. Obviously, they needed to linger on Joyce's death
> for more than one episode, but it was a bit weak.
>
> The episode with the Buffy bot was hilarious. I feel like they're getting
> really cheap pops by doing multiple versions of the same character
> episodes (Dopplegangland, The Replacement), but they're still great. And,
> the work with Spike in this episode was great yet again.
Yes the Buffy-bot was quite a bit of fun.
> The end of season five was really solid. Those knights were a bit
> ridiculous, but the final arc was great on the whole, largely because of
> Spike. His character arc was really well done. Of particular note, are the
> "You treat me like a man" scene in The Gift, and his crying after Buffy's
> death.
And his speech to Buffy after she was brought back was very beautiful, "But
I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but ...
after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... do something
different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of
different ways ... (softly) Every night I save you."
> I'm not the biggest fan of Glory, she never had the personality of The
> Mayor or Spike/Dru, but she was a better villain than The Initiative, and
> all the threads of the season came together nicely in the season finale.
> The Gift was a really epic episode. More than in any other episode of the
> show, it really felt like the entire world was at stake, and there were a
> lot of great character moments throughout.
Very true... I liked Glory, although she couldn't surpass Mayor (no one
could). She was pretty fun and stronger than Buffy which made things a bit
more serious..
> I'll have to wait until the end of the year to make a final judgment, but
> so far season six has been the best of the show since the second half of
> season two. Bargaining and Life Serial felt a bit too padded, but there
> were a lot of great moments in there. Willow's spell was really
> surprising, and set the tone for things to come nicely. Plus, Spike's
> sensitive wait for Buffy was great.
A lot of people seem to hate him for that... Overall people seem to think
that S6 is ridiculously irresponsible and all the characters are not
likeable, so I'm surprised to hear appraise for S6. Anyway, I partly liked
S6, but I felt that S5 was the highlight of the show.
> Willow's magic addiction storyline has been excellent so far. Her use of
> the forget spell on Tara was great, and the scenes with Rack were another
> highlight. While it may have been a bit too stereotypical drug storyline,
> it was visually phenomenal, and just seeing Willow in that situation made
> the cliche new. The character evolution for Willow has to be one of the
> show's greatest accomplishments. She's almost completely different from
> the season one character, but it's felt like a natural evolution, like she
> really has changed, so there's no need for her Restless fear that it's all
> just a put-on.
It still is about that... Why else would she get so addicted to it?
But I do agree with you that Willow's addiction storyline is important and
certainly not a weakness in the season.
> However, I'm sort of annoyed that Tara isn't on as much now
> that they've broken up, since Tara has also become one of my favorite
> characters. I don't know why, she just brings joy to me when she's
> onscreen.
I remember feeling that, but she never quite fitted in.. Not like Anya did.
> Once More With Feeling was absolutely amazing, my second favorite episode
> of the show, behind Restless. First off, the plot developments were all
> great, and even without the songs, it would have probably been a really
> good episode. But add the songs in and you've got a really magical piece
> of art. I think the musical gets a bad rap becuase most musicals are
> awful, with simplistic plots, and uninteresting songs. However, at its
> core, it's a wonderful format, and this episode used the heightened
> emotion of the musical to make a realky engrossing piece of television.
> Nearly every song was phenomenal. "I'm Under Your Spell" is my favorite,
> and the "You make me complete" implied oral sex scene was just beautiful.
> The Tara/Giles duet in the shop was great, "Walk through the Fire" was
> amazing, and "Something to Sing About" was another highlight. But the real
> greatness of it was in the combination of plot advancement and amazing
> songs. Every single storyline was completely upended by the musical. I am
> in awe of that episode still.
I don't care for any of the music, but yes it's pretty exceptional episode.
> Spike's been my favorite character on the show since season 2, so seeing
> him and Buffy finally get together was pretty entertaining. I was
> completely stunned by the sex scene in Smashed, and the falling through
> the floor was a nice touch. All the Spike/Buffy sex scenes so far have
> felt really dirty, and I sympathize with Buffy's disgust at herself for
> going along with it.
>
> I think season six has toned down Spike's righteousness a bit. I was
> really happy with the noble Spike of the end of season five and
> Bargaining, but I think it's more in character for him to have a bit of an
> edge. I really like the fact that he's want Buffy's love, not just her
> sex.
>
> I still think that Buffy's death was a bit of a gimmick, but her return
> has
> been dealt with really well. I love her embrace of Spike's darkness, and
> her guilt about it. The scene where she breaks down to Tara in Dead Things
> was amazing. It's a nice twist on Buffy's usual complaint that she can't
> have a normal life, and ties into her fear of her primal force from
> Restless. I really want to see what the rest of the gang thinks of her
> involvement with Spike.
I liked the Buffy-Spike "relationship" a lot as well.
> I'm actually a big fan of the Warren/Jonathan/Andrew triumvirate.
Yes they're a source of fun.
> They
> seem like the sort of characters who would be hated by fans, but I think
> they're hilarious so far. With Willow and Buffy both so close to the
> darkness, having a massive villainous threat would take away from that. I
> like the way that the lack of a major threat leaves Buffy without purpose.
> She can't unite behind trying to bust Glory or the Mayor, she has to face
> her inner demons. However, in Dead Things, those three villains were taken
> up a notch, and I'm anticipating really interesting conflicts later in the
> year. These are the first real human villains on the show, and the moral
> implications of that are far reaching.
>
> So, I really need to see the rest of the show right now. More report
> later.
Go see it.
Mikko
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>Quick news first. According to a bunch of people in the know, Joss Whedon is
>going to be writing New X-Men, the comic, starting pretty soon. I think this
>should be phenomenal, since as it's gone along, Buffy has become more and
>more like the best X-Men comics, essentially a soap opera about superpowered
>people fighting evil and saving the world. Buffy used witchcraft as a
>metaphor for coming out as gay quite a bit in season 4 and 5, and that's
>exactly the sort of things that the X-Men premise allows for. And from what
>I've seen of season 6, it looks like we've got a little Dark Phoenix going
>on. I think it's got huge potential, and just getting monthly Joss is going
>to be great. Plus the artist on the book is going to be John Cassaday, who
>does Planetary, and is one of my favorite comic artists. So, that should be
>some good stuff.
>
I'm still very doubtful about this given Joss' less-than-stellar track
record on "Fray".
>Anyway, since the last post, I've gone through about another season of
>Buffy, from I was Made to Love You up to Dead Things. Spoilers for those
>episodes. And, here's the report.
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>
>
>
>
>
>First, The Body was amazing. I already knew that Joyce would die in the
>episode, but that didn't matter. I've never seen anything on TV, or in film,
>that captured the experience of losing someone so well. While the Buffy
>stuff was all great, I really responded to the scene with the rest of the
>gang. Their concerns about being unable to face Buffy were very real. The
>Anya speech was one of the most powerful things I've ever heard. Just
>brilliant. The Buffy/Tara awkward moment, completely true to life. I'm
>unsure about having the vampire appear at the end of the episode, but on the
>whole, it's still a really great episode.
>
The vampire is a brilliant capper to the episode - life goes on.
Everything else was so stripped back and normal, but eventually
Buffy's real life would begin again. And it does.
>I thought Forever was a pretty weak episode. Spike's speech about Joyce was
>great, but it felt like just more of the same, but much worse, compared to
>The Body. Obviously, they needed to linger on Joyce's death for more than
>one episode, but it was a bit weak.
>
The monster is crappy and it couldn't help but be a step down from the
week before but the Buffy/Angel scene and the Buffy/Dawn scene are
both wonderful.
>The episode with the Buffy bot was hilarious. I feel like they're getting
>really cheap pops by doing multiple versions of the same character episodes
>(Dopplegangland, The Replacement), but they're still great. And, the work
>with Spike in this episode was great yet again.
>
>The end of season five was really solid. Those knights were a bit
>ridiculous, but the final arc was great on the whole, largely because of
>Spike. His character arc was really well done. Of particular note, are the
>"You treat me like a man" scene in The Gift, and his crying after Buffy's
>death.
>
I think season five is the year he worked best.
>I'm not the biggest fan of Glory, she never had the personality of The Mayor
>or Spike/Dru, but she was a better villain than The Initiative, and all the
>threads of the season came together nicely in the season finale.
Clare Kramer in that red dress! I'm sorry, but whatever flaws there
are in her character, the dress makes up for it.
Actually, I happen to like Glory as a villain quite a bit.
>The Gift
>was a really epic episode. More than in any other episode of the show, it
>really felt like the entire world was at stake, and there were a lot of
>great character moments throughout.
>
>I'll have to wait until the end of the year to make a final judgment, but so
>far season six has been the best of the show since the second half of season
>two.
Season 6 does start off really well, yes.
>Bargaining and Life Serial felt a bit too padded, but there were a lot
>of great moments in there. Willow's spell was really surprising, and set the
>tone for things to come nicely. Plus, Spike's sensitive wait for Buffy was
>great.
>
>Willow's magic addiction storyline has been excellent so far. Her use of the
>forget spell on Tara was great, and the scenes with Rack were another
>highlight. While it may have been a bit too stereotypical drug storyline, it
>was visually phenomenal, and just seeing Willow in that situation made the
>cliche new. The character evolution for Willow has to be one of the show's
>greatest accomplishments. She's almost completely different from the season
>one character, but it's felt like a natural evolution, like she really has
>changed, so there's no need for her Restless fear that it's all just a
>put-on.
Except it's her Restless fear that is feeding this storyline really. I
think the addiction thing is a bit heavy-handed. But S6 is probably
the least subtle of all seasons (except for S1 where the show was
still getting its footing).
>However, I'm sort of annoyed that Tara isn't on as much now that
>they've broken up, since Tara has also become one of my favorite
>characters. I don't know why, she just brings joy to me when she's onscreen.
>
You've seen Dead Things, so you know she's not completely gone. They
do realise the potential they have with a character who has grown so
much.
>Once More With Feeling was absolutely amazing, my second favorite episode of
>the show, behind Restless. First off, the plot developments were all great,
>and even without the songs, it would have probably been a really good
>episode. But add the songs in and you've got a really magical piece of art.
>I think the musical gets a bad rap becuase most musicals are awful, with
>simplistic plots, and uninteresting songs. However, at its core, it's a
>wonderful format, and this episode used the heightened emotion of the
>musical to make a realky engrossing piece of television. Nearly every song
>was phenomenal. "I'm Under Your Spell" is my favorite, and the "You make me
>complete" implied oral sex scene was just beautiful. The Tara/Giles duet in
>the shop was great, "Walk through the Fire" was amazing, and "Something to
>Sing About" was another highlight. But the real greatness of it was in the
>combination of plot advancement and amazing songs. Every single storyline
>was completely upended by the musical. I am in awe of that episode still.
>
It's an incredible work of art and I agree with everything you said.
>Spike's been my favorite character on the show since season 2, so seeing him
>and Buffy finally get together was pretty entertaining. I was completely
>stunned by the sex scene in Smashed, and the falling through the floor was a
>nice touch. All the Spike/Buffy sex scenes so far have felt really dirty,
>and I sympathize with Buffy's disgust at herself for going along with it.
>
Yes, it's, um, interesting to see her character subjected to such
things. The show matured a lot in Seasons 5 and 6.
>I think season six has toned down Spike's righteousness a bit. I was really
>happy with the noble Spike of the end of season five and Bargaining, but I
>think it's more in character for him to have a bit of an edge. I really like
>the fact that he's want Buffy's love, not just her sex.
>
>I still think that Buffy's death was a bit of a gimmick,
At the time, though, it was completely unexpected. I'm sure there were
people out there who were spoiled but for people who didn't know, they
were flawed. It might seem a little like a gimmick now that you can go
straight from The Gift into Bargaining, but back then when we had to
wait three months.!!!
>but her return has
>been dealt with really well. I love her embrace of Spike's darkness, and
>her guilt about it. The scene where she breaks down to Tara in Dead Things
>was amazing. It's a nice twist on Buffy's usual complaint that she can't
>have a normal life, and ties into her fear of her primal force from
>Restless. I really want to see what the rest of the gang thinks of her
>involvement with Spike.
>
>I'm actually a big fan of the Warren/Jonathan/Andrew triumvirate. They seem
>like the sort of characters who would be hated by fans, but I think they're
>hilarious so far. With Willow and Buffy both so close to the darkness,
>having a massive villainous threat would take away from that.
Plus, after you fight a God, what's next? A trio of annoying boys was
the exact right move because, as you said, the real darkness is
elsewhere.
>I like the way
>that the lack of a major threat leaves Buffy without purpose. She can't
>unite behind trying to bust Glory or the Mayor, she has to face her inner
>demons. However, in Dead Things, those three villains were taken up a notch,
>and I'm anticipating really interesting conflicts later in the year. These
>are the first real human villains on the show, and the moral implications of
>that are far reaching.
>
Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>So, I really need to see the rest of the show right now. More report later.
>
You really do need to see everything right now.
But report back after Season 6 or part way into Season 7. Don't leave
us hanging 'til the very end!
-- Keith Gow --
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> >Anyway, since the last post, I've gone through about another season of
But it also feels like needlessly forced violence / vampire slaying that
*every* episode must have.
> >I thought Forever was a pretty weak episode. Spike's speech about Joyce
was
> >great, but it felt like just more of the same, but much worse, compared
to
> >The Body. Obviously, they needed to linger on Joyce's death for more than
> >one episode, but it was a bit weak.
> >
>
> The monster is crappy and it couldn't help but be a step down from the
> week before but the Buffy/Angel scene and the Buffy/Dawn scene are
> both wonderful.
Exactly.
> >The episode with the Buffy bot was hilarious. I feel like they're getting
> >really cheap pops by doing multiple versions of the same character
episodes
> >(Dopplegangland, The Replacement), but they're still great. And, the work
> >with Spike in this episode was great yet again.
> >
> >The end of season five was really solid. Those knights were a bit
> >ridiculous, but the final arc was great on the whole, largely because of
> >Spike. His character arc was really well done. Of particular note, are
the
> >"You treat me like a man" scene in The Gift, and his crying after Buffy's
> >death.
> >
>
> I think season five is the year he worked best.
I think he worked pretty well in S6 as well... And in S7.
> >I'm not the biggest fan of Glory, she never had the personality of The
Mayor
> >or Spike/Dru, but she was a better villain than The Initiative, and all
the
> >threads of the season came together nicely in the season finale.
>
> Clare Kramer in that red dress! I'm sorry, but whatever flaws there
> are in her character, the dress makes up for it.
You're weird.
> Actually, I happen to like Glory as a villain quite a bit.
Me too.
> >Spike's been my favorite character on the show since season 2, so seeing
him
> >and Buffy finally get together was pretty entertaining. I was completely
> >stunned by the sex scene in Smashed, and the falling through the floor
was a
> >nice touch. All the Spike/Buffy sex scenes so far have felt really dirty,
> >and I sympathize with Buffy's disgust at herself for going along with it.
> >
>
> Yes, it's, um, interesting to see her character subjected to such
> things. The show matured a lot in Seasons 5 and 6.
Well, basically every season... And S7 developed many of the sidekick
characters...
> >but her return has
> >been dealt with really well. I love her embrace of Spike's darkness, and
> >her guilt about it. The scene where she breaks down to Tara in Dead
Things
> >was amazing. It's a nice twist on Buffy's usual complaint that she can't
> >have a normal life, and ties into her fear of her primal force from
> >Restless. I really want to see what the rest of the gang thinks of her
> >involvement with Spike.
> >
> >I'm actually a big fan of the Warren/Jonathan/Andrew triumvirate. They
seem
> >like the sort of characters who would be hated by fans, but I think
they're
> >hilarious so far. With Willow and Buffy both so close to the darkness,
> >having a massive villainous threat would take away from that.
>
> Plus, after you fight a God, what's next? A trio of annoying boys was
> the exact right move because, as you said, the real darkness is
> elsewhere.
One of the best things about S7 as well.
> >I like the way
> >that the lack of a major threat leaves Buffy without purpose. She can't
> >unite behind trying to bust Glory or the Mayor, she has to face her inner
> >demons. However, in Dead Things, those three villains were taken up a
notch,
> >and I'm anticipating really interesting conflicts later in the year.
These
> >are the first real human villains on the show, and the moral implications
of
> >that are far reaching.
> >
>
> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of the
entire series! ...and I don't even hate Riley! I can imagine how much
damnfine must loath the episode.
Mikko
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
"My dream is of a craftsman's cinema in which
the author can express himself as directly as the
painter in his paintings or the writer in his books."
Patrick MM
>
> And his speech to Buffy after she was brought back was very beautiful,
"But
> I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but ...
> after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... do something
> different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of
> different ways ... (softly) Every night I save you."
>
That was amazing. That's why what's been happening with Spike in later
episodes of the season has been annoying me a bit, because I saw him as a
better person than someone who would coerce Buffy into having sex with him
against her will. But, I guess he's got 150 years of bad, versus two of
good, so he's not completely reformed yet.
> > I'll have to wait until the end of the year to make a final judgment,
but
> > so far season six has been the best of the show since the second half of
> > season two. Bargaining and Life Serial felt a bit too padded, but there
> > were a lot of great moments in there. Willow's spell was really
> > surprising, and set the tone for things to come nicely. Plus, Spike's
> > sensitive wait for Buffy was great.
>
> A lot of people seem to hate him for that... Overall people seem to think
> that S6 is ridiculously irresponsible and all the characters are not
> likeable, so I'm surprised to hear appraise for S6. Anyway, I partly liked
> S6, but I felt that S5 was the highlight of the show.
>
I think the show is much more interesting when the characters are unlikable.
For most of season six, Xander and Anya had very little to do, they were
just happy together, but when Xander walks out on the wedding, he becomes
something of a bastard, but you also really want to see what happens with
him. Buffy flirting with the darkness with Spike makes her the most
interesting she's ever been. Obviously, they're not all bad, but I think
it's much more interesting to watch the characters at their absolute lowest,
then when they're at a pretty solid status quo. Looking back, it really is
the episodes where everything's completely screwed up that I liked, like
Passion, Wild at Heart, New Moon Rising, etc.
>
> I remember feeling that, but she never quite fitted in.. Not like Anya
did.
>
This is true, but at times it feels like Xander, Willow and Buffy all have
the same way of speaking, not exactly, but pretty similar, so having someone
completely reserved like Tara was interesting.
Patrick
Patrick MM
> >Quick news first. According to a bunch of people in the know, Joss Whedon
is
> >going to be writing New X-Men, the comic, starting pretty soon. I think
this
> >should be phenomenal, since as it's gone along, Buffy has become more and
> >more like the best X-Men comics, essentially a soap opera about
superpowered
> >people fighting evil and saving the world. Buffy used witchcraft as a
> >metaphor for coming out as gay quite a bit in season 4 and 5, and that's
> >exactly the sort of things that the X-Men premise allows for. And from
what
> >I've seen of season 6, it looks like we've got a little Dark Phoenix
going
> >on. I think it's got huge potential, and just getting monthly Joss is
going
> >to be great. Plus the artist on the book is going to be John Cassaday,
who
> >does Planetary, and is one of my favorite comic artists. So, that should
be
> >some good stuff.
> >
>
> I'm still very doubtful about this given Joss' less-than-stellar track
> record on "Fray".
>
Haven't read Fray yet, but just based on his Buffy plotting, I'd assume he
should be able to write a mean X-Men. I take it Fray wasn't so good?
>
> Except it's her Restless fear that is feeding this storyline really. I
> think the addiction thing is a bit heavy-handed. But S6 is probably
> the least subtle of all seasons (except for S1 where the show was
> still getting its footing).
>
I think that's probably why she started going into magic, the illicit
lesbian relationship along with increasingly powerful magic, that she keeps
secret from her friends. However, I think by the time she reaches season
six, it's become about the power, and is no longer really a mask for her
fears. She's basically crossed the line from being a social drinker, or
drinking to have fun, and is now about drinking becuase she has to, for no
reason other than she is addicted.
>
> You've seen Dead Things, so you know she's not completely gone. They
> do realise the potential they have with a character who has grown so
> much.
>
Yup, but then I saw Seeing Red. That was unexpected, one of the most
shocking moments in the entire run of the show. And, as much as I hate to
see Tara go, like the death of Ms. Calendar, it really turns everything up a
notch.
>
> Yes, it's, um, interesting to see her character subjected to such
> things. The show matured a lot in Seasons 5 and 6.
>
Definitely, season four it still felt like basically a teen show, however,
in 5 and particularly in 6, they've completely grown up.
I've got two episodes to go in season six, so a full report on the season
when I get to those.
Patrick
Joshua Zyber
If Buffy is dead, and they've had a funeral for her, buried her, and put
up a tombstone that says "Buffy Anne Summers" on it, how is her death a
secret from any of the people or monsters in Sunnydale?
Lars Olsson
: "Keith Gow" <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote in message
: > >Quick news first. According to a bunch of people in the know, Joss Whedon
: is
: > >going to be writing New X-Men, the comic, starting pretty soon. I think
: this
: > >should be phenomenal, since as it's gone along, Buffy has become more and
: > >more like the best X-Men comics, essentially a soap opera about
: superpowered
: > >people fighting evil and saving the world. Buffy used witchcraft as a
: > >metaphor for coming out as gay quite a bit in season 4 and 5, and that's
: > >exactly the sort of things that the X-Men premise allows for. And from
: what
: > >I've seen of season 6, it looks like we've got a little Dark Phoenix
: going
: > >on. I think it's got huge potential, and just getting monthly Joss is
: going
: > >to be great. Plus the artist on the book is going to be John Cassaday,
: who
: > >does Planetary, and is one of my favorite comic artists. So, that should
: be
: > >some good stuff.
: > >
: >
: > I'm still very doubtful about this given Joss' less-than-stellar track
: > record on "Fray".
: >
: Haven't read Fray yet, but just based on his Buffy plotting, I'd assume he
: should be able to write a mean X-Men. I take it Fray wasn't so good?
The problem was with the publication rate, often going several months
between releases, with issue #7 being released more than a full year(!)
after isue #6. Incidentally I never bothered to get the last two
issues...
I'm actually not too thrilled with Joss doing X-Men but then again I'm
not reading the current titles, having stopped my reading at around
issue 200 of Uncanny X-Men, in some ways because of the various crossovers,
but probably most because I have a bad feeling it will turn to shite
shortly......
[snip]
: > Yes, it's, um, interesting to see her character subjected to such
: > things. The show matured a lot in Seasons 5 and 6.
: >
: Definitely, season four it still felt like basically a teen show, however,
: in 5 and particularly in 6, they've completely grown up.
Funny...I've seen others comment that the scoobies were acting a lot
more grown up in the earlier seasons :)
/Lars
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> "Mikko Pihkoluoma" <fak...@welho.com> wrote in message news:btoi24
> >
> > And his speech to Buffy after she was brought back was very beautiful,
> "But
> > I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but
...
> > after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... do
something
> > different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of
> > different ways ... (softly) Every night I save you."
> >
>
> That was amazing. That's why what's been happening with Spike in later
> episodes of the season has been annoying me a bit, because I saw him as a
> better person than someone who would coerce Buffy into having sex with
him
> against her will. But, I guess he's got 150 years of bad, versus two of
> good, so he's not completely reformed yet.
I wouldn't say he has lived two good years yet... His undead living has
always been ambivalent, though the post-chip years have definitely been more
on the comfort seeking animal part of the deal.. And his love for Buffy has
kept him in this world.
I (partly) agree, but it's just that S6 had too few new ideas to last the
whole season... It all becomes somewhat redundant.
> > I remember feeling that, but she never quite fitted in.. Not like Anya
> did.
> >
>
> This is true, but at times it feels like Xander, Willow and Buffy all have
> the same way of speaking, not exactly, but pretty similar, so having
someone
> completely reserved like Tara was interesting.
Yes, I like her character a lot.
Mikko
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
"My dream is of a craftsman's cinema in which
caffeineaddict
Just a theory, but I'd say the grave and tombstone was set up by the
Scoobies out in the woods somewhere (it sure seems that way in
"Bargaining"), and that it's not on any "real" graveyard.
But it's one of those things that have bothered me too.
-- caffeineaddict
Keith Gow
<kall...@hotmail.com> waxed lyrical:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:08:33 GMT, "Joshua Zyber"
><jzy...@SPAMMERS-DROP-DEAD.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>So I've got a question about the beginning of Season 6.
>>
>>If Buffy is dead, and they've had a funeral for her, buried her, and put
>>up a tombstone that says "Buffy Anne Summers" on it, how is her death a
>>secret from any of the people or monsters in Sunnydale?
>>
>
>Just a theory, but I'd say the grave and tombstone was set up by the
>Scoobies out in the woods somewhere (it sure seems that way in
>"Bargaining"), and that it's not on any "real" graveyard.
>
I agree with this and yet, remembering the final episode of S5, isn't
there a small wall behind the grave - something like you might find in
a graveyard?
>But it's one of those things that have bothered me too.
>
It's a little bit strange, given that - surely - Joss had a good idea
of how to resurrect her before he killed her.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>"Keith Gow" <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote in message
Lars explains it in another post - it was his uneven schedule of Fray
that would be of most concern to Marvel.
Fray was pretty good, actually. It's no great revelation - it's
pretty-much "Buffy in the future" with the character being a little
bit more Faith-like. There are some great twists in the plot that are
pretty much Whedon trademarks.
>>
>> Except it's her Restless fear that is feeding this storyline really. I
>> think the addiction thing is a bit heavy-handed. But S6 is probably
>> the least subtle of all seasons (except for S1 where the show was
>> still getting its footing).
>>
>
>I think that's probably why she started going into magic, the illicit
>lesbian relationship along with increasingly powerful magic, that she keeps
>secret from her friends. However, I think by the time she reaches season
>six, it's become about the power, and is no longer really a mask for her
>fears. She's basically crossed the line from being a social drinker, or
>drinking to have fun, and is now about drinking becuase she has to, for no
>reason other than she is addicted.
>
Of the ongoing arcs in the show, Willow's evolution over all 7 seasons
is probably the most complex. I don't think it's as easy to say she's
even addicted - especially post-Seeing Red, when she loses complete
control of herself.
>>
>> You've seen Dead Things, so you know she's not completely gone. They
>> do realise the potential they have with a character who has grown so
>> much.
>>
>
>Yup, but then I saw Seeing Red. That was unexpected, one of the most
>shocking moments in the entire run of the show.
I knew Tara was going to die, but I didn't know how. As usual, the
writers made sure in the preceding episodes we got to know the
character better and really appreciate having her around - only to
have her taken from us.
How she died was quite shocking and unexpected. But it goes with the
"guns are bad" thread that has been hinted at throughout Season 6.
>And, as much as I hate to
>see Tara go, like the death of Ms. Calendar, it really turns everything up a
>notch.
>
Exactly.
>>
>> Yes, it's, um, interesting to see her character subjected to such
>> things. The show matured a lot in Seasons 5 and 6.
>>
>
>Definitely, season four it still felt like basically a teen show, however,
>in 5 and particularly in 6, they've completely grown up.
>
This may be because I've seen the end of the series, but don't be so
quick to decide they've completely grown up - I would say they are
tackling much more adult things in the final seasons and should be
acting with more maturity, but that's not always the case. Remember,
the characters are still only in their early 20s, in a way there is
still quite a bit of growing and changing for them to do.
>I've got two episodes to go in season six, so a full report on the season
>when I get to those.
>
Looking forward to it!
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
It didn't feel like that to me at all. Especially as the fight is
nothing like the regular vampire fights, it's much more desperate and
close-contact... Buffy is struggling a lot. It's not like she gives
him a flying round-house kick to the chest.
>> >I thought Forever was a pretty weak episode. Spike's speech about Joyce
>was
>> >great, but it felt like just more of the same, but much worse, compared
>to
>> >The Body. Obviously, they needed to linger on Joyce's death for more than
>> >one episode, but it was a bit weak.
>> >
>>
>> The monster is crappy and it couldn't help but be a step down from the
>> week before but the Buffy/Angel scene and the Buffy/Dawn scene are
>> both wonderful.
>
>Exactly.
>
>> >The episode with the Buffy bot was hilarious. I feel like they're getting
>> >really cheap pops by doing multiple versions of the same character
>episodes
>> >(Dopplegangland, The Replacement), but they're still great. And, the work
>> >with Spike in this episode was great yet again.
>> >
>> >The end of season five was really solid. Those knights were a bit
>> >ridiculous, but the final arc was great on the whole, largely because of
>> >Spike. His character arc was really well done. Of particular note, are
>the
>> >"You treat me like a man" scene in The Gift, and his crying after Buffy's
>> >death.
>> >
>>
>> I think season five is the year he worked best.
>
>I think he worked pretty well in S6 as well... And in S7.
>
Yes, pretty well, but not perfectly.
<snip>
>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>
>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of the
>entire series!
Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
Besides, the uneven episode I was talking about was "Hell's Bells". So
maybe there were two uneven episodes post-Dead Things.
>...and I don't even hate Riley! I can imagine how much
>damnfine must loath the episode.
>
Damnfine doesn't hate Riley.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>"Mikko Pihkoluoma" <fak...@welho.com> wrote in message news:btoi24
>>
>> I remember feeling that, but she never quite fitted in.. Not like Anya
>did.
>>
Well, Mikko, that was kinda the point - that she didn't seem to fit
in.
>
>This is true, but at times it feels like Xander, Willow and Buffy all have
>the same way of speaking, not exactly, but pretty similar, so having someone
>completely reserved like Tara was interesting.
>
It's interesting to have that kind of character on TV at all.
-- Keith Gow --
Mikko Pihkoluoma
I know, but I still would have liked to see a Buffy episode without monsters
or violence. I'm not against those things as such, but it's really
extremely boring that there is some of that in (almost) every episode.
I surely would have not wanted his character arc to end in S5...
> <snip>
>>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>>> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>>> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>>> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>>
>>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
>>the entire series!
>
> Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
> way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
...you're clearly insane.
> Besides, the uneven episode I was talking about was "Hell's Bells". So
> maybe there were two uneven episodes post-Dead Things.
Jesus, get over it. Hell's Bells is a magnificient episode, if for no
better reason than that there's more Anya moments in it... Just because it
shows your idol-boy in an uncomfortable situation doesn't make it into a
bad episode. It's stretched out because you're meant to be in that pain
for a little longer.
>>...and I don't even hate Riley! I can imagine how much
>>damnfine must loath the episode.
>>
>
> Damnfine doesn't hate Riley.
LOL, now that's funny!
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:53:12 -0500, "Patrick MM"
> <patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>
>>"Mikko Pihkoluoma" <fak...@welho.com> wrote in message news:btoi24
>>>
>>> I remember feeling that, but she never quite fitted in.. Not like Anya
>>did.
>>>
>
> Well, Mikko, that was kinda the point - that she didn't seem to fit in.
I know, that's why I said it!
What on earth do you mean?
alphakitten
For a while I had it at #143 w/ Gone as #144, but I saw it again
recently and have rethought that. It really is the worst ever. The only
things that redeem it are "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the
final scene when Buffy breaks up w/ Spike. That's all folks. It's truly
heinous.
~Angel
Mikko Pihkoluoma
>
>
> Keith Gow wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:14:45 +0200, "Mikko Pihkoluoma"
> > <fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
> >
> >>>Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
> >>>More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
> >>>really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
> >>>is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
> >>
> >>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
the
> >>entire series!
> >
> >
> > Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
> > way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>
>
>
> For a while I had it at #143 w/ Gone as #144, but I saw it again
> recently and have rethought that. It really is the worst ever. The only
> things that redeem it are "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the
> final scene when Buffy breaks up w/ Spike. That's all folks. It's truly
> heinous.
Thank you for expressing your sanity.
Patrick MM
on Older and Far Away through Lessons.
On the whole, I think the end of season six was the best the show's been
since season 2, post Innocence/Surprise, particularly in the Seeing
Red/Villains/Two to Go/Grave arc.
First off however, there was a fairly large slump between Wrecked, up until
the end of Hell's Bells, with the exception of Dead Things. Older and Far
Away had those great Tara/Spike comments, and some good scenes with Clem,
but it had a bit too much Dawn. Dawn was a decent character in season 5,
because she had a clear purpose, but in season 6, she's just dead weight. I
think it would have been much better if Dawn had been offed at some point,
perhaps instead of Tara in Seeing Red. So, the Dawn stealing plot, not very
interesting.
Then, As You Were was just pointless. This Riley is basically the early
season 4, boring Riley, stripped of the complexities that season 5 gave him.
As a result, it's really uninteresting to watch, and having him go after
Spike makes it even worse.
The weakness of the season continued into Hell's Bells, which had that just
embaressing scene of the demons fighting Xander's family. All through the
episode I was thinking that Xander and Anya getting married probably does
deserve an entire episode, but it's a pretty boring one. I assumed that
Xander would have his doubts, come back, marry Anya, and everything would be
happy. The first major shock in a while came when they didn't get married.
It's a great decision dramatically, since Xander had basically lost any
reason to be there over season 5 and 6. Season 4's Riley days clearly show
that on Buffy, a stable, healthy relationship is not good for the show. So,
instead of being basically a compromised character, with nowhere left to go,
Xander's relevance is returned by leaving Anya at the altar. By doing this,
both of them have a lot of potentially interesting story territory opened
up.
From there, things just took off. Anya and Spike getting together was a
really good twist, and the scene where Xander attacks Anya for doing that
worked on so many levels. So, with Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya screwed up,
it was a nice counterpoint to see Willow and Tara getting back together.
Ever since the spell scene in Who Are You? I've been a huge fan of the
Willow/Tara relationship. I think they work great together, and seeing them
back together was great.
Which brings us to Seeing Red. When I saw Tara in the opening credits, I
thought it was about time, and then seeing her and Willow kissing much more
than they had in the entire series to this point, it aroused a bit of
suspicion. I think Seeing Red is one of the best episodes of the entire
series, because it took the three major plot lines of the season and
basically wrecked every single one of them.
I'd been a big supporter of Buffy/Spike as I was watching the season, and
this episode sort of screwed everything up for them. As much as I dislike
what it did for Spike's character, the rape scene was really intense. All
the other Buffy/Spike sex scenes seemed to sort of border on rape, with
Spike always pushing Buffy, and it's unclear how far she wants to go. So,
this scene's similarities to the previous stuff was what made it so
interesting.
Seeing Red also was the first episode to really address The Trio since the
attempted rape and murder of Katrina, and marks the first episode where they
really seem to be villains, as opposed to comic relief. I thought they were
great from the beginning of the season, and their evolution was perfectly
executed. They're a nice parallel to Willow, since both start out by
dabbling, and eventually go way beyond where they ever intended to with
their talents. The scene with Warren and the gun was one of my favorite in
the entire series. It's completely alien to the series that a villain would
actually just attack Buffy with a gun. Every other villain has been much
more about posturing, and discussion of killing the slayer. Warren seems to
be the only person who actually wants the slayer dead. That's why I think
he's right up there with Spike as best villain in the entire series.
I knew Tara was going to die at the end of the season, back when the show's
first aired, I'd heard about it somewhere, but I assumed that it would
probably be in the last episode. So, when Tara got shot in Seeing Red, I was
completely shocked. I knew there was something about when Willow and Tara
were so happy, but I was not expecting her to get shot in that episode. From
a story perspective, it's a great decision, because it provides the perfect
catalyst for the end of the season, and puts the audience in the same
position as Xander, wanting Warren dead, but concerned about what killing
him would do to Willow. However, much like the killing of Ms. Calendar back
in season 2, it's tough to lose one of my favorite characters. Spike and
Tara were my two favorites, so losing one of them leaves less to love on the
show.
Villains was another incredible episode. Willow's rage provided a force that
just propelled the episode. Making Willow dark was a great plot decision,
and she provides the most emotional fights since Buffy's fights with Angelus
in season 2. Stripping off Warren's skin was shocking, and an incredible way
to kill him.
I think Villains-Grave were probably the episodes that seemed to go by the
quickest in the show's entire run. It seemed like the episode had just
started, and then the Joss Whedon credit was on. I loved basically the
entire season finale. It felt like absolutely everything was at stake, and
the moral issue of fighting Willow were huge. Also, Alyson Hannigan really
became someone else, and it wasn't just the hair.
The reappearance of Giles was a great shocker. Keeping him out of the
credits was one of the best decisions on the episode. His fight with Willow
was phenomenal. In the last few episodes, it really felt like all of season
six was coming together, and that everything that had occurred did mean
something. It was like watching the three hour climax of a 22 hour movie.
Obviously Willow couldn't actually destroy the world, but I almost didn't
want to see Xander stop her, since dark Willow was just so interesting.
However, the way he stopped her was a great scene, and I loved the crying
at the end. This last chunk of season six marks the first time Xander really
feels relevant since about season three.
I was hoping that Spike would somehow tie into the other events of the
finale, but the end result of his mystical journey was worth it. I started
to notice how he kept saying "I want to go back to my old self," and "I want
to give Buffy what she deserves," rather than "I want the chip out" and "I
want to kill Buffy," so I began to hope that he'd be getting his soul back,
and when it was revealed that he did at the end, it was great.
The one thing that annoyed me about the finale was having Buffy and Dawn
fighting together. I just don't care what happens to Dawn, so having her
help Buffy was basically pointless in my eyes.
So, on the whole I think season six is probably my favorite season. Despite
that brief slump in the middle, this season did the best job of carrying a
strong plot across the entire season. This is the characters at their worst,
and hence, most interesting to watch. The line between good and bad was
completely blurred here, with Buffy and Xander both making really bad
decisions, and Willow obviously fully crossing over. The only person who
hadn't done anything wrong, Tara, was killed. Then, you've got Spike
fighting off his bad side, and The Trio, particualrly Warren getting drawn
further into evil, while a demon, Clem, seemed to be the only really nice
person left. There weren't many outstanding episodes, Once More With Feeling
exclused, but the vast majority of episodes ranged from very good to great,
with very few complete clunkers. Even something like Doublemeat Palace had
the Spike/Buffy scenes to keep it interesting. And the last arc was just
genius, I couldn't see the show topping it.
So, after watching the genius that was Grave, I went on to Lessons, which
quite frankly, sucked. I felt like all the complexity of season six was gone
and I was back in season one. I guess that's the point to some extent, but
this was a complete step backward for the show. I much preferred Buffy out
of high school, and seeing her adventures with her friends on their own.
Instead, we get lame villain in high school. And, Buffy training Dawn was
just awful. I'm not a big fan of Buffy, or post season 5 Dawn, so having
them as the focus of this episode made it a bit tough to watch. I don't like
the idea that the high school is going to be a major part of the plot for
the season, but perhaps that was just this one episode. And, as a bit of a
redeemer, the Spike material was top notch, and the trip through villains
past at the end was genius. And, I'm glad to see that Willow isn't getting
off easy from her actions at the end of season 6.
I've noticed that when you watch the show straight through, as I did, the
season premieres always seem really weak. Each Buffy season is basically one
story, so going from the usually amazing climax of one story, to the
exposition for another makes the beginning seem really weak. That said,
Lessons was still a regressive, really weak episode. And the fact that
Whedon wrote it makes it even more surprising.
More on season seven, which will hopefully pick up, soon.
Patrick
alphakitten
>
> I'd been a big supporter of Buffy/Spike as I was watching the season, and
> this episode sort of screwed everything up for them. As much as I dislike
> what it did for Spike's character, the rape scene was really intense. All
> the other Buffy/Spike sex scenes seemed to sort of border on rape, with
> Spike always pushing Buffy, and it's unclear how far she wants to go.
Huh? It's Buffy who initiates the sex in Smashed, it's Buffy who
(violently) initiates the sex in Gone, it's Buffy who initiates the
second sex scene in As You Were. That makes _her_ the aggressor for half
the Spuffy sex scenes in S6.
~Angel
Patrick MM
"alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>
> Huh? It's Buffy who initiates the sex in Smashed, it's Buffy who
> (violently) initiates the sex in Gone, it's Buffy who initiates the
> second sex scene in As You Were. That makes _her_ the aggressor for half
> the Spuffy sex scenes in S6.
>
True, but then you've got the scenes in Older and Far Away, where Spike is
trying to pleasure Buffy, and she is telling him to stop. I guess if you add
up the scenes, Buffy did have a large part in it, but the vibe I got
throughout the season was that the rape scene had an opening that was fairly
typical of what would usually lead to Spike and Buffy having sex. Not to
bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true, but
I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped her in
season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent, and as a
result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after does he
recognize his mistake.
Patrick
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
I wish there were episodes of Twin Peaks without Dale Cooper saying
quirky things. Or episodes of Law & Order without a dead body. Or
episodes of Dawson's Creek without Joey...
<snip>
>>>>
>>>> I think season five is the year he worked best.
>>>
>>>I think he worked pretty well in S6 as well... And in S7.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, pretty well, but not perfectly.
>
>I surely would have not wanted his character arc to end in S5...
>
Agreed.
>> <snip>
>>>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>>>> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>>>> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>>>> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>>>
>>>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
>>>the entire series!
>>
>> Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
>> way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>
>...you're clearly insane.
>
Episodes worse than "As You Were" in Season 6:
- Gone
- Doublemeat Palace
- Hell's Bells
>> Besides, the uneven episode I was talking about was "Hell's Bells". So
>> maybe there were two uneven episodes post-Dead Things.
>
>Jesus, get over it. Hell's Bells is a magnificient episode, if for no
>better reason than that there's more Anya moments in it... Just because it
>shows your idol-boy in an uncomfortable situation doesn't make it into a
>bad episode.
I like that Xander is in an uncomfortable situation and that any move
he made would have been wrong.
>It's stretched out because you're meant to be in that pain
>for a little longer.
>
It's a badly plotted and paced episode. Don't try to tell me that
padding is an aesthetic choice.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>"alphakitten" wrote...
>>
>>
>> Keith Gow wrote:
>> > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:14:45 +0200, "Mikko Pihkoluoma"
>> > <fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >>>Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>> >>>More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>> >>>really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>> >>>is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>> >>
>> >>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
>the
>> >>entire series!
>> >
>> >
>> > Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
>> > way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>>
>>
>>
>> For a while I had it at #143 w/ Gone as #144, but I saw it again
>> recently and have rethought that. It really is the worst ever. The only
>> things that redeem it are "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the
>> final scene when Buffy breaks up w/ Spike. That's all folks. It's truly
>> heinous.
>
>
>Thank you for expressing your sanity.
>
Now you people are being bizarre. At worst it's an average episode.
When I ranked every episode, I had it in the 80s, but that might be a
bit generous. Pull it back to the hundreds.
Stop having some rose-coloured view of crappy first two season
episodes like "I Robot, You Jane" and "Go Fish" and "Some Assembly
Required". Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
That's far worse.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>I watched the season six finale, and Lessons yesterday, so here's the report
>on Older and Far Away through Lessons.
>
>On the whole, I think the end of season six was the best the show's been
>since season 2, post Innocence/Surprise, particularly in the Seeing
>Red/Villains/Two to Go/Grave arc.
>
That Season 6 found cohesion in the last six episodes was great to
see. It is certainly equal of other finale arcs like, you say, S2. I'd
put S5 in that group as well.
>First off however, there was a fairly large slump between Wrecked, up until
>the end of Hell's Bells, with the exception of Dead Things.
<snipping a lot of your great analysis>
But where's your opinion of "Normal Again"? :-)
<snip>
>Ever since the spell scene in Who Are You? I've been a huge fan of the
>Willow/Tara relationship. I think they work great together, and seeing them
>back together was great.
>
>Which brings us to Seeing Red. When I saw Tara in the opening credits, I
>thought it was about time, and then seeing her and Willow kissing much more
>than they had in the entire series to this point, it aroused a bit of
>suspicion.
Yeah, I think even people who were unspoiled were suspicious by that
point.
>I think Seeing Red is one of the best episodes of the entire
>series, because it took the three major plot lines of the season and
>basically wrecked every single one of them.
>
I love the teaser with the buzz-saws! But, yes, the rest of the
episode is quite superb.
>I'd been a big supporter of Buffy/Spike as I was watching the season, and
>this episode sort of screwed everything up for them. As much as I dislike
>what it did for Spike's character, the rape scene was really intense. All
>the other Buffy/Spike sex scenes seemed to sort of border on rape, with
>Spike always pushing Buffy, and it's unclear how far she wants to go. So,
>this scene's similarities to the previous stuff was what made it so
>interesting.
>
Yes, it's not knowing exactly where the line is or how their
relationship is defined that makes that twist so fascinating.
>Seeing Red also was the first episode to really address The Trio since the
>attempted rape and murder of Katrina, and marks the first episode where they
>really seem to be villains, as opposed to comic relief. I thought they were
>great from the beginning of the season, and their evolution was perfectly
>executed. They're a nice parallel to Willow, since both start out by
>dabbling, and eventually go way beyond where they ever intended to with
>their talents. The scene with Warren and the gun was one of my favorite in
>the entire series. It's completely alien to the series that a villain would
>actually just attack Buffy with a gun. Every other villain has been much
>more about posturing, and discussion of killing the slayer. Warren seems to
>be the only person who actually wants the slayer dead. That's why I think
>he's right up there with Spike as best villain in the entire series.
>
I like the comparison to Spike. In a way, they do parallel one another
- even from back in Season 5 when Warren first appeared and the whole
Buffy-bot thing happened. (Also, rewatch "I Was Made to Love You" now
that you've seen "Seeing Red" - most notably for Tara's compassion
toward someone who might need to build a robot lover for affection,
because everyone needs love. The irony is delicious and cruel.)
<snip>
>I think Villains-Grave were probably the episodes that seemed to go by the
>quickest in the show's entire run. It seemed like the episode had just
>started, and then the Joss Whedon credit was on. I loved basically the
>entire season finale.
Agreed. Those episodes just disappeared when I first watched them.
>It felt like absolutely everything was at stake, and
>the moral issue of fighting Willow were huge. Also, Alyson Hannigan really
>became someone else, and it wasn't just the hair.
>
There is some incredible acting on this show all the way through but
it will never be recognised because it's a "teen" show that's also a
"genre" show.
>The reappearance of Giles was a great shocker. Keeping him out of the
>credits was one of the best decisions on the episode.
A very audible "woo-hoo" came from my mouth when he appeared.
"I'd like to test that theory." Incredible.
>His fight with Willow
>was phenomenal. In the last few episodes, it really felt like all of season
>six was coming together, and that everything that had occurred did mean
>something. It was like watching the three hour climax of a 22 hour movie.
>
And after offing Tara, I really wondered if Giles was going to die,
too.
>Obviously Willow couldn't actually destroy the world, but I almost didn't
>want to see Xander stop her, since dark Willow was just so interesting.
>However, the way he stopped her was a great scene, and I loved the crying
>at the end. This last chunk of season six marks the first time Xander really
>feels relevant since about season three.
>
Xander is always up and down with feeling relevant, which is what I
like about his character. Most TV characters are either hero or comic
relief (or villain) and when they grow and learn they stay grown and
learned. Xander has realistically kept his insecurities.
>I was hoping that Spike would somehow tie into the other events of the
>finale, but the end result of his mystical journey was worth it. I started
>to notice how he kept saying "I want to go back to my old self," and "I want
>to give Buffy what she deserves," rather than "I want the chip out" and "I
>want to kill Buffy," so I began to hope that he'd be getting his soul back,
>and when it was revealed that he did at the end, it was great.
>
I think leaving him out of the finale mostly was a great idea, because
I'd basically forgotten about him until the montage and the revelation
- which was the best way to do it!
<snip>
>So, after watching the genius that was Grave, I went on to Lessons, which
>quite frankly, sucked. I felt like all the complexity of season six was gone
>and I was back in season one. I guess that's the point to some extent, but
>this was a complete step backward for the show. I much preferred Buffy out
>of high school, and seeing her adventures with her friends on their own.
>Instead, we get lame villain in high school. And, Buffy training Dawn was
>just awful. I'm not a big fan of Buffy, or post season 5 Dawn, so having
>them as the focus of this episode made it a bit tough to watch. I don't like
>the idea that the high school is going to be a major part of the plot for
>the season, but perhaps that was just this one episode.
As usual, Whedon won't exactly go where you expect him to. A lot of
people were worried that with the introduction of Dawn's friends in
"Lessons" the show would focus on her more. It doesn't really.
The back to the beginning stuff is important, as the Master says in
the villain montage at the end.
>And, as a bit of a
>redeemer, the Spike material was top notch, and the trip through villains
>past at the end was genius. And, I'm glad to see that Willow isn't getting
>off easy from her actions at the end of season 6.
>
Nobody ever gets away with anything on this show lightly.
>I've noticed that when you watch the show straight through, as I did, the
>season premieres always seem really weak. Each Buffy season is basically one
>story, so going from the usually amazing climax of one story, to the
>exposition for another makes the beginning seem really weak. That said,
>Lessons was still a regressive, really weak episode. And the fact that
>Whedon wrote it makes it even more surprising.
>
I think most of the season premieres lay groundwork for the season
ahead and while never particularly strong, they are always important.
>More on season seven, which will hopefully pick up, soon.
I think you'll enjoy many of the episodes soon enough.
-- Keith Gow --
alphakitten
I have no rose-colored anything of IR-YJ. SAR gets a pass, though. The
premise is less stupid than some of the other S1 & S2 MOW eps, and it
features a staggering amount of quality one-liners.
Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
> 4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>
> As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
> That's far worse.
>
The final 10 minutes are unassailably crappy. The first 30 are
frequently terrific . Swell Espensenian dialogue, the training video,
the actors who play Manny and the Ear Grease Guy, the bizarre, almost
surreal pacing, Spike for once trying to get Buffy to do something
that's in her own best interests, etc.
> -- Keith Gow --
alphakitten
Patrick MM wrote:
> "alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>
>>Huh? It's Buffy who initiates the sex in Smashed, it's Buffy who
>>(violently) initiates the sex in Gone, it's Buffy who initiates the
>>second sex scene in As You Were. That makes _her_ the aggressor for half
>>the Spuffy sex scenes in S6.
>>
>
>
> True, but then you've got the scenes in Older and Far Away, where Spike is
> trying to pleasure Buffy, and she is telling him to stop. I guess if you add
> up the scenes, Buffy did have a large part in it, but the vibe I got
> throughout the season was that the rape scene had an opening that was fairly
> typical of what would usually lead to Spike and Buffy having sex.
That's true, it's just worth noting that the sexual violence that
previously occurred was both mutual and consensual.
Not to
> bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true, but
> I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped her in
> season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent, and as a
> result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after does he
> recognize his mistake.
>
> Patrick
>
>
Which is one of the many, many problems w/ the AR storyline...
~Angel
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
It's "less stupid" so it gets a pass?
The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
last third and is uneven until then, the better.
>
>
>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>> 4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>
>
>
>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>
That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
watching it.
>
>
>
>>
>> As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>> That's far worse.
>>
>
>
>The final 10 minutes are unassailably crappy. The first 30 are
>frequently terrific . Swell Espensenian dialogue, the training video,
>the actors who play Manny and the Ear Grease Guy, the bizarre, almost
>surreal pacing, Spike for once trying to get Buffy to do something
>that's in her own best interests, etc.
They are good elements, but basically all in an unwatchable episode.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
>
>Patrick MM wrote:
<snip>
> Not to
>> bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true, but
>> I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped her in
>> season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent, and as a
>> result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after does he
>> recognize his mistake.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>
>Which is one of the many, many problems w/ the AR storyline...
>
Actually, no. There are no fundamental problems with the attempted
rape story.
Buffy doesn't "set a precedent", they both do. They both go from a
mutal hatred society to two self-loathing people who come together in
a mutually-destructive relationship. As far as Buffy initiates the
kiss in OMWF or the sex in Smashed, Spike has been pursuing her for a
long time beforehand. She goes to him because of this - looking for
some way of feeling again.
The fact that while Spike feels like he wants her back, feels like he
wants to dominate her again, feels like he can make her come back to
him, it exposes in him (to the viewer) an inability to differentiate
between mutual abuse and rape.
He only recognises his mistake when he realises forcing himself on her
doesn't work.
She makes it pretty damn clear it's not what she wants then.
-- Keith Gow --
Mikko Pihkoluoma
Those are good things.
> <snip>
>>>>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>>>>> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>>>>> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>>>>> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>>>>
>>>>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
>>>>the entire series!
>>>
>>> Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
>>> way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>>
>>...you're clearly insane.
>>
>
> Episodes worse than "As You Were" in Season 6:
>
> - Gone
No way. Buffy with shorter hair was nice to see.
While irritating, it was nowhere near the stupidity of that James Bond crap
in As You Were.
> - Doublemeat Palace
No.
Sense of humour.
> - Hell's Bells
Why are you against deliberately slowly paced things?
>>> Besides, the uneven episode I was talking about was "Hell's Bells". So
>>> maybe there were two uneven episodes post-Dead Things.
>>
>>Jesus, get over it. Hell's Bells is a magnificient episode, if for no
>>better reason than that there's more Anya moments in it... Just because
>>it shows your idol-boy in an uncomfortable situation doesn't make it into
>>a bad episode.
>
> I like that Xander is in an uncomfortable situation and that any move
> he made would have been wrong.
Why do you hate the episode?
>>It's stretched out because you're meant to be in that pain
>>for a little longer.
>>
>
> It's a badly plotted and paced episode. Don't try to tell me that
> padding is an aesthetic choice.
How could one argue it isn't?!??
Mikko Pihkoluoma
Kuckoo. 144 is the way to go
> Stop having some rose-coloured view of crappy first two season
> episodes like "I Robot, You Jane"
It has a kickass oneliner from Xander...
> and "Go Fish"
Definitely funnier than 'As You Were'.
> and "Some Assembly
> Required". Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
> 4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
Yeah, but it's not even remotely as badly directed as 'As You Were' is.
In the history of Buffy there was never so much bad acting and direction
than in 'AYW'.
> As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
> That's far worse.
No, it's not. The old lady is funny... Not to mention the slimy
fallos-symbol.
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:50:18 +1100, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
> The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
> last third and is uneven until then, the better.
Agreed.
>>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>>> 4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>>
>>
>>
>>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>>
>
> That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
>
> AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
> watching it.
Go see a doctor.
Mikko Pihkoluoma
Keith said it all, everyone else is wrong.
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> I watched the season six finale, and Lessons yesterday, so here's the
> report on Older and Far Away through Lessons.
>
> On the whole, I think the end of season six was the best the show's been
> since season 2, post Innocence/Surprise, particularly in the Seeing
> Red/Villains/Two to Go/Grave arc.
>
> First off however, there was a fairly large slump between Wrecked, up
> until the end of Hell's Bells, with the exception of Dead Things. Older
> and Far Away had those great Tara/Spike comments, and some good scenes
> with Clem, but it had a bit too much Dawn. Dawn was a decent character in
> season 5, because she had a clear purpose, but in season 6, she's just
> dead weight. I think it would have been much better if Dawn had been offed
> at some point,
> perhaps instead of Tara in Seeing Red. So, the Dawn stealing plot, not
> very interesting.
I really can't see why people start to prefer some characters beyond others
while watching the show. They are all equally interesting and stupid. Dawn
is great in S6... The stealing plot was perfect given her character in S6
that no one seems to understand.
> Then, As You Were was just pointless. This Riley is basically the early
> season 4, boring Riley, stripped of the complexities that season 5 gave
> him. As a result, it's really uninteresting to watch, and having him go
> after Spike makes it even worse.
This is how many votes on the list Keith-is-insane-concerning-AYW, now?
> The weakness of the season continued into Hell's Bells, which had that
> just embaressing scene of the demons fighting Xander's family. All through
> the episode I was thinking that Xander and Anya getting married probably
> does deserve an entire episode, but it's a pretty boring one. I assumed
> that Xander would have his doubts, come back, marry Anya, and everything
> would be happy. The first major shock in a while came when they didn't get
> married.
It's no wonder you didn't like it, since you confess here that you didn't
emotionally understand it at all...
The Mayor is beyond any villain, and mostly beyond any character or actor in
the show.
> I knew Tara was going to die at the end of the season, back when the
> show's first aired, I'd heard about it somewhere, but I assumed that it
> would probably be in the last episode. So, when Tara got shot in Seeing
> Red, I was completely shocked. I knew there was something about when
> Willow and Tara were so happy, but I was not expecting her to get shot in
> that episode. From a story perspective, it's a great decision, because it
> provides the perfect catalyst for the end of the season, and puts the
> audience in the same position as Xander, wanting Warren dead, but
> concerned about what killing him would do to Willow. However, much like
> the killing of Ms. Calendar back in season 2, it's tough to lose one of my
> favorite characters. Spike and Tara were my two favorites, so losing one
> of them leaves less to love on the show.
Don't expect S7 to be what it's not.
> Villains was another incredible episode. Willow's rage provided a force
> that just propelled the episode. Making Willow dark was a great plot
> decision, and she provides the most emotional fights since Buffy's fights
> with Angelus in season 2. Stripping off Warren's skin was shocking, and an
> incredible way to kill him.
Willow should have not killed him and I don't think the skin ripping was "a
cool way" to do it...
> I think Villains-Grave were probably the episodes that seemed to go by the
> quickest in the show's entire run. It seemed like the episode had just
> started, and then the Joss Whedon credit was on. I loved basically the
> entire season finale. It felt like absolutely everything was at stake, and
> the moral issue of fighting Willow were huge. Also, Alyson Hannigan really
> became someone else, and it wasn't just the hair.
>
> The reappearance of Giles was a great shocker. Keeping him out of the
> credits was one of the best decisions on the episode. His fight with
> Willow was phenomenal. In the last few episodes, it really felt like all
> of season six was coming together, and that everything that had occurred
> did mean something. It was like watching the three hour climax of a 22
> hour movie.
It's pretty breathtaking to watch, but not much of anything interest on the
second viewing, perhaps despite the emotional stuff between characters..
> Obviously Willow couldn't actually destroy the world, but I almost didn't
> want to see Xander stop her, since dark Willow was just so interesting.
> However, the way he stopped her was a great scene, and I loved the crying
> at the end. This last chunk of season six marks the first time Xander
> really feels relevant since about season three.
I disagree. Just because he doesn't save the world as often as Buffy does,
doesn't mean he's not relevant.
> I was hoping that Spike would somehow tie into the other events of the
> finale, but the end result of his mystical journey was worth it. I started
> to notice how he kept saying "I want to go back to my old self," and "I
> want to give Buffy what she deserves," rather than "I want the chip out"
> and "I want to kill Buffy," so I began to hope that he'd be getting his
> soul back, and when it was revealed that he did at the end, it was great.
Spike getting his soul back could have been done better, but I'm glad it
happened at all.
> The one thing that annoyed me about the finale was having Buffy and Dawn
> fighting together.
No. It was the highlight of the finale.
> I just don't care what happens to Dawn,
You have to talk to a shrink about this...
Why? Because she's actually a teen-age girl nowadays?
Because she has to go through the regular stuff?
> so having her
> help Buffy was basically pointless in my eyes.
I know you don't like her, but there's a great deal of truth in her
character. That you're blindly not seeing it is your problem and will make
you fail the test of S7.
> So, on the whole I think season six is probably my favorite season.
> Despite that brief slump in the middle, this season did the best job of
> carrying a strong plot across the entire season. This is the characters at
> their worst, and hence, most interesting to watch. The line between good
> and bad was completely blurred here, with Buffy and Xander both making
> really bad decisions, and Willow obviously fully crossing over. The only
> person who hadn't done anything wrong, Tara, was killed. Then, you've got
> Spike fighting off his bad side, and The Trio, particualrly Warren getting
> drawn further into evil, while a demon, Clem, seemed to be the only really
> nice person left. There weren't many outstanding episodes, Once More With
> Feeling exclused, but the vast majority of episodes ranged from very good
> to great, with very few complete clunkers. Even something like Doublemeat
> Palace had the Spike/Buffy scenes to keep it interesting. And the last arc
> was just genius, I couldn't see the show topping it.
>
> So, after watching the genius that was Grave, I went on to Lessons, which
> quite frankly, sucked.
Burn your I-don't-understand-Dawn flag and try to be objective or you will
pretty much hate the rest of the series... Stop dreaming that this season
will continue on the lines of S6. S7 is entirely different. It's in certain
respects reworking of everything Buffy had to offer.
> I felt like all the complexity of season six was
> gone and I was back in season one.
So you failed to see the production values, direction, and the ending of the
episode. Have you seen the second episode? You don't see anything complex
about that?
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
Eh?
You wish there were episodes of Twin Peaks where Dale Cooper didn't
say quirky things?
Or do you really not like vampire slaying in "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer"?
>> <snip>
>>>>>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after Once
>>>>>> More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only one
>>>>>> really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although nothing
>>>>>> is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>>>>>
>>>>>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode of
>>>>>the entire series!
>>>>
>>>> Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
>>>> way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>>>
>>>...you're clearly insane.
>>>
>>
>> Episodes worse than "As You Were" in Season 6:
>>
>> - Gone
>
>No way. Buffy with shorter hair was nice to see.
A minor, minor part of an otherwise crappy episode which ripped off a
crappy movie for some of its crappy gags.
>While irritating, it was nowhere near the stupidity of that James Bond crap
>in As You Were.
>
James Bond crap?
>> - Doublemeat Palace
>
>No.
>Sense of humour.
>
...
>> - Hell's Bells
>
>Why are you against deliberately slowly paced things?
>
It's not that it's slowly paced, it's that it's badly paced. Full of
repetitive, mind-numbing parts. It's a 22 minute episode stretched out
to 44.
>>>> Besides, the uneven episode I was talking about was "Hell's Bells". So
>>>> maybe there were two uneven episodes post-Dead Things.
>>>
>>>Jesus, get over it. Hell's Bells is a magnificient episode, if for no
>>>better reason than that there's more Anya moments in it... Just because
>>>it shows your idol-boy in an uncomfortable situation doesn't make it into
>>>a bad episode.
>>
>> I like that Xander is in an uncomfortable situation and that any move
>> he made would have been wrong.
>
>Why do you hate the episode?
>
We have been through this before.
I like the premise. I like the beginning. I like the end. But in
between it's kinda silly and kinda boring.
>>>It's stretched out because you're meant to be in that pain
>>>for a little longer.
>>>
>>
>> It's a badly plotted and paced episode. Don't try to tell me that
>> padding is an aesthetic choice.
>
>How could one argue it isn't?!??
Slow pacing is an aesthetic choice, but my problem isn't that it's
slow, it's that it's clunky.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
Are you really saying that WtWtA is better?
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>> That's far worse.
>
>No, it's not. The old lady is funny... Not to mention the slimy
>fallos-symbol.
I knew you were beyond help before this.
Now, now, now I'm beating myself in the head.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>Keith said it all, everyone else is wrong.
Thanks.
-- Keith Gow --
Mikko Pihkoluoma
I wouldn't say I don't like it, but the way it's a part of the mandatory
package is very annoying... Equally annoying with the fact that every
episode just has to be less than 50 minutes, and their storylines need to
modify themselves to be part of that.
>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> Dead Things is probably the second best episode of Season 6 after
>>>>>>> Once More With Feeling. And I think beyond Dead Things there's only
>>>>>>> one really uneven episode, a couple of solid standalones (although
>>>>>>> nothing is really standalone anymore) and a great final six.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"One uneven episode"? Ugh. 'As You Were' is the single worst episode
>>>>>>of the entire series!
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, please, I know you are prone to exaggerate, Mikko, but it's in no
>>>>> way the worst episode of the series - or even of the season!
>>>>
>>>>...you're clearly insane.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Episodes worse than "As You Were" in Season 6:
>>>
>>> - Gone
>>
>>No way. Buffy with shorter hair was nice to see.
>
> A minor, minor part of an otherwise crappy episode which ripped off a
> crappy movie for some of its crappy gags.
Haven't seen the crappy movie, but Spike "practicing" in bed was a very
funny scene..
>>While irritating, it was nowhere near the stupidity of that James Bond
>>crap in As You Were.
>>
>
> James Bond crap?
Gadgets, "thrill", hunting... and none of it works for a single moment.
>>> - Hell's Bells
>>
>>Why are you against deliberately slowly paced things?
>>
>
> It's not that it's slowly paced, it's that it's badly paced. Full of
> repetitive, mind-numbing parts. It's a 22 minute episode stretched out
> to 44.
We've discussed this before and everyone on board agreed that the waiting
(Anya in the dressing room!!), arguing, fighting (Don't touch me with those
and Buffy miming and juggling is all extremely important and entertaining.
Added to that, every second of Spike in that episode is a nug of gold and
it's diamonds when Buffy is discussing with her. (There's tons of material
I haven't even addressed yet, all of which are brilliant.)
Mikko Pihkoluoma
How can you not laugh when you see that head open up?
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:19:21 +0200, Mikko Pihkoluoma
> <fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>
>>Keith Gow wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:50:18 +1100, alphakitten
>>> <alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>>
>>> The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
>>> last third and is uneven until then, the better.
>>
>>Agreed.
>>
>>>>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>>>>> 4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>>>>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>>>>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
>>>
>>> AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
>>> watching it.
>>
>>Go see a doctor.
>
> Are you really saying that WtWtA is better?
Yes. WtWtA is not annoying, is not badly acted, has at least horny sex in
it, doesn't have stupid jealousy reactions, etc...
alphakitten
>>
>>I have no rose-colored anything of IR-YJ. SAR gets a pass, though. The
>>premise is less stupid than some of the other S1 & S2 MOW eps, and it
>>features a staggering amount of quality one-liners.
>>
>
>
> It's "less stupid" so it gets a pass?
>
> The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
> last third and is uneven until then, the better.
>
It mostly gets a pass on account of the dialogue. FtR, I am not one of
those nutjobs who believe S2 holds up very well when compared to the
later seasons.
>
>>
>>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>>
>>>4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>>
>>
>>
>>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>>
>
>
> That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
>
> AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
> watching it.
>
AYW has "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the final scene. What else?
>>
>>
>>>As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>>>That's far worse.
>>>
>>
>>
>>The final 10 minutes are unassailably crappy. The first 30 are
>>frequently terrific . Swell Espensenian dialogue, the training video,
>>the actors who play Manny and the Ear Grease Guy, the bizarre, almost
>>surreal pacing, Spike for once trying to get Buffy to do something
>>that's in her own best interests, etc.
>
>
> They are good elements, but basically all in an unwatchable episode.
>
> -- Keith Gow --
No BtVS eps are "unwatchable". A few of them are just crappy when
compared to the rest of the series. I'm sure AYW holds it's own just
fine when compared to the worst (or for that matter best) of Charmed,
Dark Angel, etc.
~Angel
alphakitten
Keith Gow wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:33:18 +1100, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
>
>>
>>Patrick MM wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Not to
>>
>>>bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true, but
>>>I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped her in
>>>season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent, and as a
>>>result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after does he
>>>recognize his mistake.
>>>
>>>Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Which is one of the many, many problems w/ the AR storyline...
>>
>
>
> Actually, no. There are no fundamental problems with the attempted
> rape story.
Oh, come on. The question mark over Spike's intentions is a pretty big
deal. Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
~Angel
alphakitten
Mikko Pihkoluoma wrote:
> Keith Gow wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:19:21 +0200, Mikko Pihkoluoma
>><fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>>
>>
>>>Keith Gow wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:50:18 +1100, alphakitten
>>>><alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>>>
>>>>The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
>>>>last third and is uneven until then, the better.
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>>>>>
>>>>>>4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>>>>>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>>>>>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
>>>>watching it.
>>>
>>>Go see a doctor.
>>
>>Are you really saying that WtWtA is better?
>
>
> Yes. WtWtA is not annoying,
Oh, God. Yes it is!
> is not badly acted, has at least horny sex in
> it,
Ewwwwww! Buffy and Riley...ewww! Seriously, even without being an anti
B/R shipper, SMG and Blucas have zero chemistry. Those scenes are icky.
~Angel
Mikko Pihkoluoma
>
>
> Keith Gow wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:33:18 +1100, alphakitten
>> <alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Patrick MM wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Not to
>>>
>>>>bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true,
>>>>but I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped
>>>>her in season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent,
>>>>and as a result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after
>>>>does he recognize his mistake.
>>>>
>>>>Patrick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Which is one of the many, many problems w/ the AR storyline...
>>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, no. There are no fundamental problems with the attempted
>> rape story.
>
>
> Oh, come on. The question mark over Spike's intentions is a pretty big
> deal.
Intentions? So you mean he didn't try to force her into it?
What is that he was doing then?
> Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
> off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy and
Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn feels
safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
Mikko
alphakitten
Mikko Pihkoluoma wrote:
> alphakitten wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Keith Gow wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:33:18 +1100, alphakitten
>>><alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Patrick MM wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>Not to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>bring up "all women bring rape on themselves," which clearly isn't true,
>>>>>but I think that Buffy "opens the gates." Spike would never have raped
>>>>>her in season 5, or pre-Smashed. It's just that she sets that precedent,
>>>>>and as a result, he feels that he is doing what she wants. Only after
>>>>>does he recognize his mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>>Patrick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Which is one of the many, many problems w/ the AR storyline...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually, no. There are no fundamental problems with the attempted
>>>rape story.
>>
>>
>>Oh, come on. The question mark over Spike's intentions is a pretty big
>>deal.
>
>
> Intentions? So you mean he didn't try to force her into it?
> What is that he was doing then?
>
In the choreography of the scene, there's a shot where he has her flat
on her belly, legs apart, as defenseless as it's possible for her to be.
So what does he do? He flips her over into a postition where he can be
punched/kicked/staked. Without that shot, I'd accept it as attempted
rape. With it, frankly, it comes off as Spike engagning in what was for
them fairly standard foreplay and seriously misjudging her reactions.
>
>>Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
>>off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
>
>
> No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy and
> Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn feels
> safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
>
> Mikko
"What they have between them"!? He just tried to RAPE her! From a
logical standpoint she knows he can't hurt Dawn, sure. Mere hours after
suffering a rape attempt by her former lover, however, she would be
operating emotionally, not logically. There are no circumstances under
which she can believably leave Dawn w/ Spike. Let alone look hurt when
informed he's left town...
~Angel
Mikko Pihkoluoma
You love Spike, don't you?
And suppose your theory is correct, how does that work into a fault of the
attempted rape storyline?
>>>Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
>>>off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
>>
>>
>> No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy
>> and
>> Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn
>> feels safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
>>
>> Mikko
>
>
> "What they have between them"!? He just tried to RAPE her!
So now you think that's what happened?!?
> From a
> logical standpoint she knows he can't hurt Dawn, sure. Mere hours after
> suffering a rape attempt by her former lover, however, she would be
> operating emotionally, not logically. There are no circumstances under
> which she can believably leave Dawn w/ Spike.
Okay, it's a fault. One fault in the storyline. Doesn't make it into a very
fault-filled storyline..
> Let alone look hurt when
> informed he's left town...
I didn't think she looked hurt because he left town.
alphakitten
That's between me and my God.
>
> And suppose your theory is correct, how does that work into a fault of the
> attempted rape storyline?
The entire thing was a fault, regardless of how valid my theory is or
isn't. The one and only point of the AR was to give Spike the motivation
to get his soul back. That's it. There is no attempt to seriously
portray what Buffy would have gone through after that kind of trauma.
It was a bad, bad call, and it was handled insensitively and incompetently.
>
>>>>Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
>>>>off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
>>>
>>>
>>>No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy
>>>and
>>>Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn
>>>feels safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
>>>
>>>Mikko
>>
>>
>>"What they have between them"!? He just tried to RAPE her!
>
>
> So now you think that's what happened?!?
From _her_ perspective, it is.
~Angel
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>Equally annoying with the fact that every
>episode just has to be less than 50 minutes, and their storylines need to
>modify themselves to be part of that.
>
You're a nutter. That's just a restriction of television, my friend.
Live with it.
Besides, Once More With Feeling was 8 minutes longer than a normal TV
"hour", so they aren't all the same length ;-)
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
>>>
>>>I have no rose-colored anything of IR-YJ. SAR gets a pass, though. The
>>>premise is less stupid than some of the other S1 & S2 MOW eps, and it
>>>features a staggering amount of quality one-liners.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's "less stupid" so it gets a pass?
>>
>> The sooner people realise that season two only gets really good in the
>> last third and is uneven until then, the better.
>>
>
>It mostly gets a pass on account of the dialogue. FtR, I am not one of
>those nutjobs who believe S2 holds up very well when compared to the
>later seasons.
>
Good. I'm glad you hate "Where the Wild Things Are", too.
>
>>
>>>
>>>Please remember the total absense of fun or sense in Season
>>>
>>>>4's "Where the Wild Things Are".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I hate WtWTA. But it has a (slightly) bigger handful of redeeming
>>>features than AYW (the Spike/Anya scenes, Giles singing Behind Blue
>>>Eyes, Willow's expression when she sees Giles singing BBE).
>>>
>>
>>
>> That's two scenes out of 44 minutes.
>>
>> AYW has more than two good scenes, at least, and I feel better about
>> watching it.
>>
>
>
>AYW has "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the final scene. What else?
>
I like that Willow pretends to hate Riley's wife, for Buffy's benefit.
I like the scene where Riley's wife tells Willow she's strong.
I generally don't hate Riley.
>>>
>>>>As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>>>>That's far worse.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The final 10 minutes are unassailably crappy. The first 30 are
>>>frequently terrific . Swell Espensenian dialogue, the training video,
>>>the actors who play Manny and the Ear Grease Guy, the bizarre, almost
>>>surreal pacing, Spike for once trying to get Buffy to do something
>>>that's in her own best interests, etc.
>>
>>
>> They are good elements, but basically all in an unwatchable episode.
>>
>> -- Keith Gow --
>
>No BtVS eps are "unwatchable".
The rewatch value of 2MP is nearly zero.
>A few of them are just crappy when
>compared to the rest of the series.
I won't be rewatching WtWtA in a hurry either.
>I'm sure AYW holds it's own just
>fine when compared to the worst (or for that matter best) of Charmed,
>Dark Angel, etc.
It's just fine compared with the zero rewatch value Buffies, too.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:16:46 +0200, Mikko Pihkoluoma
>> <fak...@welho.com> waxed lyrical:
>>
>>>Keith Gow wrote:
>>>> As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>>>> That's far worse.
>>>
>>>No, it's not. The old lady is funny... Not to mention the slimy
>>>fallos-symbol.
>>
>> I knew you were beyond help before this.
>>
>> Now, now, now I'm beating myself in the head.
>
>How can you not laugh when you see that head open up?
Because by that time my smile muscles had left the building and my
laughter capacity went into hibernation.
It's stoopid. Even alphakitten doesn't like the end of the episode!
You're in a league of your own, Mikko.
-- Keith Gow --
Patrick MM
>
> Lars explains it in another post - it was his uneven schedule of Fray
> that would be of most concern to Marvel.
>
> Fray was pretty good, actually. It's no great revelation - it's
> pretty-much "Buffy in the future" with the character being a little
> bit more Faith-like. There are some great twists in the plot that are
> pretty much Whedon trademarks.
>
I assume that Marvel would have a good chunk of scripts ready before they
start the Whedon run. In the article that basically confirmed that Whedon
would be on the book, it also said that he wouldn't start his run until
February 2005. So, I assume this is a way to ensure that there won't be
significant delays. I don't see Marvel allowing their biggest moneymaker to
come out with only 6 issues a year.
>
> I knew Tara was going to die, but I didn't know how. As usual, the
> writers made sure in the preceding episodes we got to know the
> character better and really appreciate having her around - only to
> have her taken from us.
>
> How she died was quite shocking and unexpected. But it goes with the
> "guns are bad" thread that has been hinted at throughout Season 6.
>
Yeah, I think it's much better to have her die in a shocking way than get
killed by a vampire, or even by Warren face to face. It emphasizes that
Warren doesn't play by the rules of the Buffy universe.
Patrick
Patrick MM
> When I ranked every episode, I had it in the 80s, but that might be a
> bit generous. Pull it back to the hundreds.
>
If you've still got the episode ranking, could you post it. It'd be
interesting to get another opinion on the series.
Patrick
Patrick MM
>
Normal Again was a really cool episode. I really was unclear with what was
going on at first. I think a slight variation on that would have been an
amazing final episode.
>
> There is some incredible acting on this show all the way through but
> it will never be recognised because it's a "teen" show that's also a
> "genre" show.
>
And the title of the show too. All that gives the impression that it's a
fairly dumb teen show. As you said, the acting is phenomenal, and deserves
more recognition. And, the writing too. Very few other shows have as much
respect for the characters as Buffy does.
Patrick
Patrick MM
>
> I really can't see why people start to prefer some characters beyond
others
> while watching the show. They are all equally interesting and stupid. Dawn
> is great in S6... The stealing plot was perfect given her character in S6
> that no one seems to understand.
>
It's difficult to say why I prefer some characters to other, it basically
boils down to the unpretentious fact that I find a scene with Spike more
interesting than a scene with Dawn, and when you've got unresolved plot
points with Spike/Buffy, and Willow/Tara in season 6, I don't want to watch
Dawn and her stealing troubles. It may be appropriate to the character, but
it's not something that I really want to watch.
>
> The Mayor is beyond any villain, and mostly beyond any character or actor
in
> the show.
>
What about "I really can't see why people start to prefer some characters
beyond others while watching the show." For the same reason you prefer the
Mayor to Warren, I prefer certain characters to others.
>
> Willow should have not killed him and I don't think the skin ripping was
"a
> cool way" to do it...
>
Obviously from an objective standpoint she shouldn't have killed him, but
narrative wise, I think it worked quite well. In order to make Two to
Go/Grave work, Willow has to be a menacing villain, and killing Warren in
that way did it. And come on, the skin ripping was cool.
>
> It's pretty breathtaking to watch, but not much of anything interest on
the
> second viewing, perhaps despite the emotional stuff between characters..
>
I could see that. Not too much really happens in the two episodes, but on
the first viewing, they're amazing.
>
> I disagree. Just because he doesn't save the world as often as Buffy does,
> doesn't mean he's not relevant.
>
I meant more that in seasons 5 and 6, he was basically set. He was in love
with Anya, he had a good job, so there wasn't really that much material for
him to work with, other than commenting on other storylines. So, when he
leaves Anya, he's got somewhere to go, and hence, is relevant to the plot.
>
> > I just don't care what happens to Dawn,
>
> You have to talk to a shrink about this...
>
> Why? Because she's actually a teen-age girl nowadays?
> Because she has to go through the regular stuff?
>
Ok, that's fair, but we've already seen Buffy do basically that same thing
back in seasons 1-3. And, she had the Angel storyline to actually make her
regular stuff more interesting. I think the high school years of the show
were great, but at this point, it just seems a bit reactionary to cover that
same territory again with Dawn, particularly when there are more interesting
story threads to cover.
> > so having her
> > help Buffy was basically pointless in my eyes.
>
> I know you don't like her, but there's a great deal of truth in her
> character. That you're blindly not seeing it is your problem and will
make
> you fail the test of S7.
>
Coming off Lessons, I may have been a bit harsh on Dawn. I thought she was
good in Same Time, Same Place. That posing business was great.
I think Buffy is mainly about interaction between the characters. I don't
find Buffy that interesting on her own, but put her with Spike, and all of a
sudden, she's one of the most interesting people on the show. For me, Spike
and Anya can make any scene interesting, no matter who they're with, while
Buffy and Dawn are dependent on some good interaction for their characters
to be interesting. This is why the Riley era was not so good, becuase you
had two weak characters dominating screen time, and not interacting with
anyone else.
>
> So you failed to see the production values, direction, and the ending of
the
> episode. Have you seen the second episode? You don't see anything complex
> about that?
>
The ending sequence of Lessons was by far the best part of the episode. The
second episode was much better. Spike's problem is really interesting, and
him on that cross was a great visual. It definitely picks up after Lessons.
But, that's partially a result of putting Spike and Anya into the mix. I'm
still expecting to love season seven by the end of it, but coming off the
high point of six, it's a bit tough to adjust to a new season.
Patrick
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
None of what you are saying makes any sense. I do see that as a
misjudgment, but given what he's trying to do, it's not like he's
thinking clearly.
>Without that shot, I'd accept it as attempted
>rape. With it, frankly, it comes off as Spike engagning in what was for
>them fairly standard foreplay and seriously misjudging her reactions.
>
This is a ridiculous statement given what has come before.
From the script:
--------------------------------------------------------------
SPIKE
It wasn't for you. I wanted
something -- anything to make this
feeling stop. I just wanted it to
stop.
(a beat, soft)
You should have let him kill me.
BUFFY
I couldn't.
SPIKE
Why?
BUFFY
You know why.
SPIKE
Because you love me.
A beat. This has gone way beyond pain and retribution. It's down to
the truth now, once and for all.
BUFFY
(softly, honestly)
No. I don't.
SPIKE
Why do you keep lying
to yourself?
BUFFY
I'm not saying I don't have feelings
for you. I do. But it's not love.
I could never trust you enough for it
to become that.
SPIKE
Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy.
Great love is wild and passionate and
dangerous. It burns and consumes.
BUFFY
Until there's nothing left. That
kind of love doesn't last.
He's moving towards her, desperate, tortured.
SPIKE
I know you feel like I do. You don't
have to hide it anymore.
He moves to kiss her. She gently tries to stop him.
BUFFY
Spike --
SPIKE
Let yourself feel it...
He's becoming more forceful.
BUFFY
Stop it...
It's quickly escalated into a very real, very ugly struggle.
SPIKE
You love me...
BUFFY
Don't --
She stumbles back. She grabs onto the shower curtain, falling. The
shower curtain rings pop off like gunfire as she goes down, WHACK! She
gasps in pain as her back cracks against the edge of the tub, then her
head as she stumbles more, dazing her.
Spike is on her, pinning her against the back of the tub, oblivious to
her pain. His kisses are desperate, forceful.
SPIKE
(kissing her)
Let it go... Let yourself love me...
BUFFY
(over)
Stop it... please... stop...
He doesn't listen.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I used the script because that's what I had handy. Besides, any
transcript would be inadequate anyway.
If you really think that Buffy wants sex in that scene, I think the
problem lies with you more than with the scene.
>
>>
>>>Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
>>>off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
>>
>>
>> No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy and
>> Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn feels
>> safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
>>
>> Mikko
>
>
>"What they have between them"!? He just tried to RAPE her! From a
>logical standpoint she knows he can't hurt Dawn, sure. Mere hours after
>suffering a rape attempt by her former lover, however, she would be
>operating emotionally, not logically.
Have you forgotten that she's spent most of the year emotionally shut
down? It's quite plausible she's still running with no emotion or, in
fact, she's shut down again. It's a standard thing for Buffy when
things go really wrong. She shut down after Riley left. She shut down
after her mother died. She went catatonic when Dawn was taken by
Glory.
>There are no circumstances under
>which she can believably leave Dawn w/ Spike. Let alone look hurt when
>informed he's left town...
I don't really think she does look hurt. But - let's say she does -
perhaps that's another sign of Buffy not knowing right from wrong
anymore? Good from bad? She went to the worst person in the world
because "I just wanna feel..." It works well as a metaphor for the
abused wife who just keeps going back to her husband because she
doesn't know what else to do.
It's a horrible story, but it's not really flawed.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
It fits perfectly with his character, though. The chip has been
keeping him in check but now that he has some power over someone
(someone who he's been having a complicated on-off relationship with),
he uses it.
I think the line about Buffy not being able to trust him is the real
motivation to get his soul back. The AR just shows him that he really
can't exist between beast and man anymore. He needs something to make
him more human.
>There is no attempt to seriously
>portray what Buffy would have gone through after that kind of trauma.
>It was a bad, bad call, and it was handled insensitively and incompetently.
>
You're placing what you expect or would have liked to see in the story
as a way to criticise it, which isn't a very valid form of criticism.
Did you really want Buffy to feel victimised? Did you really want her
to go catatonic again?
Or have you just been watching too many Movies of the Week where
victims are victims are victims?
>
>
>
>>
>>>>>Less than 24 hours after the incident, Buffy attempts to drop Dawn
>>>>>off with him for safekeeping. It's a mess.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No it's not. Spike taking care of Dawn has nothing to do with what Buffy
>>>>and
>>>>Spike have between them. Buffy knows Spike can't hurt Dawn, and Dawn
>>>>feels safe with Spike, so I really can't see the mess.
>>>>
>>>>Mikko
>>>
>>>
>>>"What they have between them"!? He just tried to RAPE her!
>>
>>
>> So now you think that's what happened?!?
>
>
>
>
> From _her_ perspective, it is.
>
Different people handle things differently.
-- Keith Gow --
alphakitten
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I used the script because that's what I had handy. Besides, any
> transcript would be inadequate anyway.
>
> If you really think that Buffy wants sex in that scene, I think the
> problem lies with you more than with the scene.
I never said that _I_ thought that! I said that given the nature and
history of their relationship and prior sexual encounters, I don't think
it's impossible that _Spike_ thought that.
~Angel
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>"Keith Gow" <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote in message
I'll post it once you've seen the end of the series. That'll stop my
rankings from influencing your thoughts at all :-)
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>"Keith Gow" <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote in message
>>
>> But where's your opinion of "Normal Again"? :-)
>>
>
>Normal Again was a really cool episode. I really was unclear with what was
>going on at first. I think a slight variation on that would have been an
>amazing final episode.
>
As far as I'm concerned, it works better in the middle of the series
rather than at the end. It still suggest very strongly that we are
watching everything filtered through the mind of the other Buffy,
whether it's the last thing we see or not.
>>
>> There is some incredible acting on this show all the way through but
>> it will never be recognised because it's a "teen" show that's also a
>> "genre" show.
>>
>
>And the title of the show too. All that gives the impression that it's a
>fairly dumb teen show. As you said, the acting is phenomenal, and deserves
>more recognition. And, the writing too. Very few other shows have as much
>respect for the characters as Buffy does.
Agreed 100%
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<patrick...@verizon.net> waxed lyrical:
>"Keith Gow" <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote in message
>>
>> Lars explains it in another post - it was his uneven schedule of Fray
>> that would be of most concern to Marvel.
>>
>> Fray was pretty good, actually. It's no great revelation - it's
>> pretty-much "Buffy in the future" with the character being a little
>> bit more Faith-like. There are some great twists in the plot that are
>> pretty much Whedon trademarks.
>>
>
>I assume that Marvel would have a good chunk of scripts ready before they
>start the Whedon run. In the article that basically confirmed that Whedon
>would be on the book, it also said that he wouldn't start his run until
>February 2005. So, I assume this is a way to ensure that there won't be
>significant delays. I don't see Marvel allowing their biggest moneymaker to
>come out with only 6 issues a year.
>
Exactly. It might well be that they'd want a stockpile of scripts,
something Dark Horse is demanding if he wants another Fray
mini-series.
-- Keith Gow --
alphakitten
>>
>>
>>The entire thing was a fault, regardless of how valid my theory is or
>>isn't. The one and only point of the AR was to give Spike the motivation
>>to get his soul back. That's it.
>
>
> It fits perfectly with his character, though. The chip has been
> keeping him in check but now that he has some power over someone
> (someone who he's been having a complicated on-off relationship with),
> he uses it.
>
> I think the line about Buffy not being able to trust him is the real
> motivation to get his soul back. The AR just shows him that he really
> can't exist between beast and man anymore. He needs something to make
> him more human.
>
That's not the problem. The problem is that rape is way too serious a
crime to be used as a plot point like that. Especially if you're going
to utterly disregard the victim.
>
>>There is no attempt to seriously
>>portray what Buffy would have gone through after that kind of trauma.
>>It was a bad, bad call, and it was handled insensitively and incompetently.
>>
>
>
> You're placing what you expect or would have liked to see in the story
> as a way to criticise it, which isn't a very valid form of criticism.
I'm criticising it for exactly what it is. An attempt to portray a
serious real-life issue that makes no attempt to even slightly portray
it's real-life ramifications.
> Did you really want Buffy to feel victimised? Did you really want her
> to go catatonic again?
Dude, I wanted Spuffy smoochies in S7. I don't take the AR seriously.
My initial post on this subject was mean't to illustrate *why* I don't,
not to list things I wanted to see.
>
> Or have you just been watching too many Movies of the Week where
> victims are victims are victims?
How does my wanting a subject like rape to be handled with a little
sensitivity and responsibility translate to that?
~Angel
alphakitten
>>>
>>
>>
>>AYW has "My hat has a cow" and JM's acting in the final scene. What else?
>>
>
>
> I like that Willow pretends to hate Riley's wife, for Buffy's benefit.
> I like the scene where Riley's wife tells Willow she's strong.
That's not enough to counter the first act in which absolutley NOTHING
happens, the lack of good dialogue, the lackluster performances, the
sluggish direction, the dubious production values, the dullness of
Riley, the dullness of Sam, and the utter laziness of the writing.
Considering the circumstances of their break up, Buffy making cow eyes
at The Enormous Hall Monitor is degrading to the character. Her
treatment of Spike loathsome. Speaking of...while my Blondie Bear may
not be among the great thinkers of our time, he's not fricking retarded.
Storing a bunch of conspicuous looking demon eggs in his bedroom? A
place that Buffy storms in and out of at her leisure? Yeah, whatever.
>
> I generally don't hate Riley.
>
I generally do, but I didn't in AYW until he offered to kill Spike.
>
>>>>>As I said in another post - what about the crappy "Doublemeat Palace"?
>>>>>That's far worse.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The final 10 minutes are unassailably crappy. The first 30 are
>>>>frequently terrific . Swell Espensenian dialogue, the training video,
>>>>the actors who play Manny and the Ear Grease Guy, the bizarre, almost
>>>>surreal pacing, Spike for once trying to get Buffy to do something
>>>>that's in her own best interests, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>They are good elements, but basically all in an unwatchable episode.
>>>
>>>-- Keith Gow --
>>
>>No BtVS eps are "unwatchable".
>
>
> The rewatch value of 2MP is nearly zero.
I didn't yield to its charms until the rewatch.
>
>
>>A few of them are just crappy when
>>compared to the rest of the series.
>
>
> I won't be rewatching WtWtA in a hurry either.
>
>
>>I'm sure AYW holds it's own just
>>fine when compared to the worst (or for that matter best) of Charmed,
>>Dark Angel, etc.
>
>
> It's just fine compared with the zero rewatch value Buffies, too.
>
> -- Keith Gow --
1) There are no zero rewatch Buffies.
2) No it doesn't. It gets worse and worse.
~Angel
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
>Speaking of...while my Blondie Bear may
>not be among the great thinkers of our time,
Say no more.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
<snip>
>Dude, I wanted Spuffy smoochies in S7. I don't take the AR seriously.
Well that's end of discussion then, isn't it.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
<alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
You Spike-lovers make me sick.
You say you don't want to see the victim forgotten or the attempted
rape be used as a "plot point" and yet it's all really about not
wanting to believe Spike is capable of something like that.
Well, he was, we both saw it.
-- Keith Gow --
Mikko Pihkoluoma
I didn't say I like it, but at least watching that doesn't feel like
someones stabbing you with four knives all over the body, like AYW feels.
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
"My dream is of a craftsman's cinema in which
the author can express himself as directly as the
painter in his paintings or the writer in his books."
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> Mikko Pihkoluoma" <fak...@welho.com> wrote in message news:bu0qd5
> >
> > I really can't see why people start to prefer some characters beyond
> others
> > while watching the show. They are all equally interesting and stupid.
Dawn
> > is great in S6... The stealing plot was perfect given her character in
S6
> > that no one seems to understand.
> >
>
> It's difficult to say why I prefer some characters to other, it basically
> boils down to the unpretentious fact that I find a scene with Spike more
> interesting than a scene with Dawn, and when you've got unresolved plot
> points with Spike/Buffy, and Willow/Tara in season 6, I don't want to
watch
> Dawn and her stealing troubles. It may be appropriate to the character,
but
> it's not something that I really want to watch.
I know, but Dawn is an important character... The whole show can't be about
Spike and Buffy -- that would be incredibly boring.
> >
> > The Mayor is beyond any villain, and mostly beyond any character or
actor
> in
> > the show.
> >
>
> What about "I really can't see why people start to prefer some characters
> beyond others while watching the show." For the same reason you prefer the
> Mayor to Warren, I prefer certain characters to others.
Sidekicks are a bit different deal, but I knew I was contradicting myself.
> > Willow should have not killed him and I don't think the skin ripping was
> "a
> > cool way" to do it...
> >
>
> Obviously from an objective standpoint she shouldn't have killed him, but
> narrative wise, I think it worked quite well. In order to make Two to
> Go/Grave work, Willow has to be a menacing villain, and killing Warren in
> that way did it. And come on, the skin ripping was cool.
No, it wasn't.
> > I disagree. Just because he doesn't save the world as often as Buffy
does,
> > doesn't mean he's not relevant.
> >
>
> I meant more that in seasons 5 and 6, he was basically set. He was in love
> with Anya, he had a good job, so there wasn't really that much material
for
> him to work with, other than commenting on other storylines. So, when he
> leaves Anya, he's got somewhere to go, and hence, is relevant to the plot.
He didn't have many things in his life but his fears about the commitment
were definitely hinted at all the time...
> > > I just don't care what happens to Dawn,
> >
> > You have to talk to a shrink about this...
> >
> > Why? Because she's actually a teen-age girl nowadays?
> > Because she has to go through the regular stuff?
> >
>
> Ok, that's fair, but we've already seen Buffy do basically that same thing
> back in seasons 1-3.
No we haven't. Dawn is the younger sister... She has to find her own way in
the midst of becoing an adult. Anyone who has younger siblings can see her
predicaments as very real.
> And, she had the Angel storyline to actually make her
> regular stuff more interesting. I think the high school years of the show
> were great, but at this point, it just seems a bit reactionary to cover
that
> same territory again with Dawn, particularly when there are more
interesting
> story threads to cover.
I don't think there are...
Coming back to the early things in S7 was very neatly done.
> > > so having her
> > > help Buffy was basically pointless in my eyes.
> >
> > I know you don't like her, but there's a great deal of truth in her
> > character. That you're blindly not seeing it is your problem and will
> make
> > you fail the test of S7.
> >
>
> Coming off Lessons, I may have been a bit harsh on Dawn. I thought she was
> good in Same Time, Same Place. That posing business was great.
It's lots of fun.
> > So you failed to see the production values, direction, and the ending of
> the
> > episode. Have you seen the second episode? You don't see anything
complex
> > about that?
> >
>
> The ending sequence of Lessons was by far the best part of the episode.
The
> second episode was much better. Spike's problem is really interesting, and
> him on that cross was a great visual. It definitely picks up after
Lessons.
> But, that's partially a result of putting Spike and Anya into the mix. I'm
> still expecting to love season seven by the end of it, but coming off the
> high point of six, it's a bit tough to adjust to a new season.
I was mesmerized by the skill of direction and production values that
Lessons had to offer, besides I thought going back to the high school (at
least for a little while) was a nice idea.
Mikko
caffeineaddict
wrote:
Keith, I got your Excel statistic-o-rama of our all-episode rankings
right here on my hard drive in case you lost it while changing
computers. Just in case.
But perhaps they're still online at athbd?
-- caffeineaddict
alphakitten
Because I jestingly called him Blondie Bear, or because suggested he's
not overly bright?
~Angel
alphakitten
Jesus Christ on a bike...
>
> Well, he was, we both saw it.
>
> -- Keith Gow --
I have questions about what I saw in Seeing Red. However, since I've
seen Spike do far, far worse, it's not because I have any delusions
about soulless Spike being incapable of rape. Give me a fucking break.
~Angel
Joshua Zyber
of Buffy threads in this forum, arguing over which was the worst Buffy
episode is just about the most ridiculous and annoying thing that has
ever happened in this newsgroup.
Please stop.
Matthew Wilson
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:53:36 +1100, alphakitten
> <alphak...@netscape.net> waxed lyrical:
>
> >
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I used the script because that's what I had handy. Besides, any
> >> transcript would be inadequate anyway.
> >>
> >> If you really think that Buffy wants sex in that scene, I think the
> >> problem lies with you more than with the scene.
> >
> >
> >
> >I never said that _I_ thought that! I said that given the nature and
> >history of their relationship and prior sexual encounters, I don't think
> >it's impossible that _Spike_ thought that.
> >
>
> You Spike-lovers make me sick.
So now this newsgroup really is turning into alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer.
Matthew
Keith Gow
<kall...@hotmail.com> waxed lyrical:
I've still got 'em. I'll post your stats to, if you want...
Although I get a feeling there's backlash coming if we don't all just
calm down a little bit.
I don't want what happed in ATH to happen in ATTP.
-- Keith Gow --
caffeineaddict
wrote:
>Although I get a feeling there's backlash coming if we don't all just
>calm down a little bit.
>
>I don't want what happed in ATH to happen in ATTP.
>
>-- Keith Gow --
Good point. Very good point.
Maybe it's time to let the wonderful world of Buffy get some rest
within ATTP. Knock-down, drag-out arguments like some of the ones
going on are likelier to scare away potential future watchers than
seduce them.
Just my 11 cents, of course.
-- caffeineaddict