Sheen's granddaughter
Will Nordmeyer
Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested for
burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
morals?
Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
Why wasn't it on the front page? She's the daughter and granddaughter of 2
very big celebrities.
--Will
Lynn
>
> To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
Well, I haven't done any bashing (haven't even read any of the threads), so
maybe I'll weigh in here.
> Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested
> for burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals?
Martin Sheen isn't in a position to make policy that can radically affect my
life or the lives of people I care about. Personally, I gloat when the
Moralistic Bush Jr's, or the Goody-goody Gore's kids or the Schafly's of the
world son get drunk or announce "alternative" lifestyles.
Instead of people bashing Bush, I wish there was a stronger call for less
legislation and less Stepfordization of the country. For a people whose
"leaders" call for "less government in our lives", there are sure an awful
lot of folks in jail and the court system for no other reason than for being
human.
--
Lynn
http://users.lmi.net/ennui
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognizes
genius... -Arthur Conan Doyle, "The Valley of Fear"
============================================================================
* West Wing: http://users.lmi.net/ennui/westwing001.htm *
* WingNuts: http://users.lmi.net/ennui/WingNuts.html *
**********************************************************
meirm...@erols.com
Nordmeyer" <will-...@kimmoore.org> posted:
>To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
>
>Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested for
>burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
>morals?
Her and GWBush's morals.
I think that's clear.
>Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
>
>Why wasn't it on the front page? She's the daughter and granddaughter of 2
>very big celebrities.
>
>--Will
>
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
BobMac
To the best of my recollection, Mr. Sheen has claimed to be
an expert only on a) acting and b) alcoholism. He has never,
AFAIK claimed to be more moral or dignified or
family-oriented than anyone else.
If you wanted a chance to rip his childraising, you hit a
lot harder than this.
BobMac
ing
>
> To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
>
> Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested for
> burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
> morals?
Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
>
> Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
Vilified?! Good lord. He should be lauded. Charlie's
right. It's nobody's business but the family's. The
Sheen's never set themselves up as moral leaders.
>
> Why wasn't it on the front page?
It was. On the front page of the National Enquirer, from
what I heard. The only front page the story really
deserved.
> She's the daughter and granddaughter of 2
> very big celebrities.
So? Big deal. If you're reduced to depending on
"celebrities" for moral guidance and leadership, you're in
real deep do-do.
ing
David Marc Nieporent
>> To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
>> Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested for
>> burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
>> morals?
>Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
>who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
>citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
>of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
>where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
>values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
I thought that a TV/movie actor *did* sit as the highest elected official
in that country, and ran for office on a platform of family values.
That aside,
(1) Bush is being criticized as a _father_, not as a president, and
(2) where did Bush say that he "wants to lead the country back to family
values?" I remember him saying that he wanted to restore *dignity* to the
White House, but not what you said.
>> Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
>Vilified?! Good lord. He should be lauded. Charlie's
>right. It's nobody's business but the family's. The
>Sheen's never set themselves up as moral leaders.
When did Bush?
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent niep...@alumni.princeton.edu
AMYSA
>To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
>Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested for
>burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals?
why would it? and even if it did it's a matter of apples and oranges...
fyi: there's a big difference between burglary and shoplifting.
>Why wasn't it on the front page? She's the daughter and granddaughter of 2
>very big celebrities.
it was on the front page of the *tabloids*, wasn't it? i mean, you pretty much
answered that one when you used the word "celebrities". GWB's kids make the
covers of the papers because he is the *president*. whether or not one thinks
it's appropriate news or not, i would *really* be disapointed in the big
newspapers if they suddenly decided that charlie sheen's daughter was front
page news.
amy
"sometimes you make me sad."--dave nelson
Will Nordmeyer
"ing" <ing.b...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B219D62...@sympatico.ca...
> Will Nordmeyer wrote:
> >
> > To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
> >
> > Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested
for
> > burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
> > morals?
>
>
> Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
> who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
> citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
> of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
> where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
> values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
>
his daughters drink... So I asked if you were going to hold the Sheen's to
the same standard - they are famous people too.
>
> >
> > Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family
matter?
>
> Vilified?! Good lord. He should be lauded. Charlie's
> right. It's nobody's business but the family's. The
> Sheen's never set themselves up as moral leaders.
>
BUT Bush was criticized for stating it was a personal family matter. You
can't have it both ways, unless you want to be a hypocrite.
> >
> > Why wasn't it on the front page?
>
> It was. On the front page of the National Enquirer, from
> what I heard. The only front page the story really
> deserved.
>
But the Bush DAUGHTERs deserved their front page coverage? That's a pretty
big double standard.
>
> > She's the daughter and granddaughter of 2
> > very big celebrities.
>
> So? Big deal. If you're reduced to depending on
> "celebrities" for moral guidance and leadership, you're in
> real deep do-do.
>
Celebrities are role models for our youth... more so than politicians. But,
you all won't criticize them for their failures as parents because they
aren't Republicans.
Will Nordmeyer
"AMYSA" <am...@aol.comasutra> wrote in message
news:20010609135722...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> wi...@kimmoore.org said:
>
> >To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
> >Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested
for
> >burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals?
>
> why would it? and even if it did it's a matter of apples and oranges...
Bush daughters did an activity that a large percentage of college kids do,
and is generally charged as a misdemeanor. Charlie's daughter did something
that not many do and is generally a felony charge. AND the Bush daughters
are legal adults, and Charlie's daughter is still a minor - so who's not
raising their child right?
Why the difference in coverage, double standard?
>
> fyi: there's a big difference between burglary and shoplifting.
>
Yes... and she was charged with burglary...
"MALIBU, Calif. (Reuters) - The 16-year-old daughter of "Spin City" star
Charlie Sheen was arrested on Wednesday at a clothing boutique in this
fashionable coastal resort town just north of Los Angeles and charged with
burglary, police said."
> >Why wasn't it on the front page? She's the daughter and granddaughter of
2
> >very big celebrities.
>
> it was on the front page of the *tabloids*, wasn't it? i mean, you pretty
much
> answered that one when you used the word "celebrities". GWB's kids make
the
> covers of the papers because he is the *president*. whether or not one
thinks
> it's appropriate news or not, i would *really* be disapointed in the big
> newspapers if they suddenly decided that charlie sheen's daughter was
front
> page news.
>
Isn't that a double standard? Neither the Bush daughters or Charlie's
daughter SOUGHT media attention, yet when they screw up, the Bush daughters
get front page of "reputable" national newspapers, and Sheen's daughter gets
the "tabloids".
And there's no liberal/Democratic bias in the media.
AMYSA
>I'm just seeing if there is fairness here. BUSH is being hammered because
>his daughters drink... So I asked if you were going to hold the Sheen's to
>the same standard - they are famous people too.
you aren't seeing if there's fairness, you're just trying to stir something up.
if it was chelsea clinton or caroline kennedy or amy carter you'd have
something...in this case you don't. you're comparing the treatment of a b-level
celeb's daughter with the daughters of the president of the united states.
really...do you think there's anything similar there? if you do, that's just
bizarre.
>Celebrities are role models for our youth...
charlie sheen's daughter is not a celebrity or a role model.
>But,
>you all won't criticize them for their failures as parents because they
>aren't Republicans.
blah, blah, blah.
i hear tom selleck's a great parent (although i suppose he's not technically a
republican, is he?) bruce willis's supposed to be a pretty good dad, too, if
you listen to the tabs.
people are people...good or bad or democrat or republican. the president,
however, is on an entirely different level than everyone else, especially when
they want to preach family values, etc. the bush girls haven't really done
anything heinously wrong...they're just being teenagers. however, it was really
stupid of them to think that they'd be able to do such things now that dad's
the president. *that* is what they need a good, hard smack on the forehead for,
not for drinking.
AMYSA
>They both are criminal acts. The difference is (as far as I can tell), the
>Bush daughters did an activity that a large percentage of college kids do,
>and is generally charged as a misdemeanor. Charlie's daughter did something
>that not many do and is generally a felony charge.
if you think not many teenagers shoplift then you should really get out of your
house a little more.
whatever the case, though, you should really drop the whole double standard
nonsense and really think about what you're saying. but, then, i'm going to
give you the benefit of the doubt again and assume that you *do* know what
you're saying and you're trying to make a point where, again, there isn't one.
<snip the rest>
you poor boy.
and people think democrats are hard headed...
BobMac
>
>
> So? Big deal. If you're reduced to depending on
> "celebrities" for moral guidance and leadership, you're in
> real deep do-do.
>
> ing
Y'know, I've heard this before. Remember Charles Barkley's
"I am not a role model" speech? I thought it was incredibly
self centred the first time I heard it. Years later, I
realize what he was on about: it must be terrifying to spend
your life perfecting a fairly narrow set of skills, and
discovering that people suddenly expect you to be a moral
inspiration as well.
BobMac
ing
>
> ing wrote:
> >
> >
> > So? Big deal. If you're reduced to depending on
> > "celebrities" for moral guidance and leadership, you're in
> > real deep do-do.
> >
> > ing
>
> Y'know, I've heard this before. Remember Charles Barkley's
> "I am not a role model" speech? I thought it was incredibly
> self centred the first time I heard it.
I remember that too. I didn't think it was self-centred tho,
I thought he was just speaking his mind -- the guy has a job to
do ... he's a sports figure. I'd be surprised if his contract
stipulated being a role model.
> Years later, I
> realize what he was on about: it must be terrifying to spend
> your life perfecting a fairly narrow set of skills, and
> discovering that people suddenly expect you to be a moral
> inspiration as well.
My thoughts entirely. While I suppose it's perfectly legit to
have papers reporting on the woes and weaknesses of sports figures
like Darryl Strawberry and slews of others ... that they get
criticixed for failing as "role models" puzzles the hell out
of me.
Maybe some can pull it off - Muhammed Ali comes to mind -- but
in the end, they're all just ordinary guys with a narrow set
of skills who have to please their owners at the end of day
-- not stand as role models for a fickle public-at-large.
ing
ing
>
> In article <3B219D62...@sympatico.ca>,
> ing <ing.b...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
> >who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
> >citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
> >of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
> >where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
> >values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
>
> I thought that a TV/movie actor *did* sit as the highest elected official
> in that country, and ran for office on a platform of family values.
Oh for heaven's sakes -- Ronald Reagan had *long* before
given up
acting -- as I recall when he ran for President he was more
often referred to as the (former?) Governor (or something
like that) of California. In any case, he'd been a
politician for several years prior to getting elected POTUS
... and was supposedly politically experienced.
Harry Truman ran a hardware store one time, didn't he? Out
in the mid west? At that time, did folks then demand that
all hardware store owners be as responsible as Truman was
for providing leadership (of whatever kind) to Americans?
>
> That aside,
> (1) Bush is being criticized as a _father_, not as a president, and
No, he is being criticized as the President who is also the
father ... these are, in the minds of Americans, IMO,
inextricably linked.
And FWIW, I *do* think that folks have gone way overboard in
their reaction to the Bush girls and their attempts to gain
access to booze.
The thing is, it's news, NOT because they did it -- millions
of youths their age do what they did -- it's news because of
who their father is. The most powerful politician in the US
-- if not the world. I don't personally think their actions
reflect on him, but I sure can see where a lot of folks
MIGHT think that.
(BTW, loved that line the other night when the theatrical
awards were given out, Obies? Emmys? I forget the name of
that award -- anyway, somebody said "we're as happy as the
Bush twins at happy hour". Good line, that one, I laughed
out loud!)
> (2) where did Bush say that he "wants to lead the country back to family
> values?" I remember him saying that he wanted to restore *dignity* to the
> White House, but not what you said.
If I misspoke myself on that one, I apologize. My point
remains the same however. Whether it's "family values" or
*dignity*, when you set yourself up as a leader using terms
that fall into that huge arena of moralistic intent, you
look a whole lot better at doing the job when you keep your
own house clean.
>
> >> Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
>
> >Vilified?! Good lord. He should be lauded. Charlie's
> >right. It's nobody's business but the family's. The
> >Sheen's never set themselves up as moral leaders.
>
> When did Bush?
Bush is your president. If a POTUS can't be seen to be as
providing, for want of other terms, "moral leadership and
dignity" ... well, who the heck can? It's the highest
elected office in your country. Your people put him there
by vote.
To get HIS job, Martin Sheen took a screen test, for
heaven's sake. I'd bet (without really knowing for sure)
that Sheen got his job because ONE person, or at most half a
dozen folks with clout, selected him for the job.
Based on that, are you implying that Bush and Martin Sheen
share equally in providing moral leadership to Americans?!
Merely because Sheen is a TV/movie actor and the precedent's
been set that since there *was*, at one time a former
TV/movie actor who held the position of POTUS that ergo, all
TV/movie actors must "provide moral leadership" to
Americans?
If so, why not pick Kelsey Grammar or Tom Cruise or John
Travolta as well. Or how about Jane Fonda, Bette Midler or
Kate Hepburn or the entire cast from "Friends". The list is
endless. YOu got no end of actor-type people who'd be
responsible for providing you with moral leadership and
lessons in how to raise kids. And if depend on
entertainers to provide that leadership -- I repeat --
you're in deep do-do.
ing
Will Nordmeyer
"AMYSA" <am...@aol.comasutra> wrote in message
> will-...@kimmoore.org said:
>
> >They both are criminal acts. The difference is (as far as I can tell),
the
> >Bush daughters did an activity that a large percentage of college kids
do,
> >and is generally charged as a misdemeanor. Charlie's daughter did
something
> >that not many do and is generally a felony charge.
>
> if you think not many teenagers shoplift then you should really get out of
your
> house a little more.
>
kids who drink, compared to number of 16 yr olds who shoplift.
> whatever the case, though, you should really drop the whole double
standard
> nonsense and really think about what you're saying. but, then, i'm going
to
> give you the benefit of the doubt again and assume that you *do* know what
> you're saying and you're trying to make a point where, again, there isn't
one.
>
I do see a double standard in the media... but let's stick with the 2nd
question I had in that post... who's morals is her behavior reflecting?
Charlie's? Martin's? Her's only?
Or... lets stick with 2 famous people (father & son)- Martin & Charlie
themselves. Does Charlie's bad behavior demonstrate that Martin is immoral,
as people are implying that the Bush daughters bad behavior is a direct
reflection on their father's morals?
>
> and people think democrats are hard headed...
>
No... I think they are as hypocritical as most republicans. MY people can
do no wrong... but our opponents can do no good. Which is why I'm a
declared independent.
ing
>
> (2) where did Bush say that he "wants to lead the country back to family
> values?" I remember him saying that he wanted to restore *dignity* to the
> White House, but not what you said.
It was probably this quote from George W. that I was
remembering through the mists of time:
"My administration will encourage after-school
programs that build character, and support mentoring
groups that shape and save young lives.
We must give our children a spirit of moral courage,
because their character is our destiny. Our schools
must support the ideals of parents, elevating
character and abstinence from afterthoughts to
urgent goals. Most of all, we must teach our
children the values that defeat violence."
Source: Speech to Republican National Convention
Aug 3, 2000
I took it from this quote that he meant "family values".
ing
David Marc Nieporent
ing <ing.b...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>David Marc Nieporent wrote:
>> ing <ing.b...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
>> >who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
>> >citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
>> >of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
>> >where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
>> >values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
>> That aside,
>> (1) Bush is being criticized as a _father_, not as a president, and
>No, he is being criticized as the President who is also the
>father ... these are, in the minds of Americans, IMO,
>inextricably linked.
But he is being criticized for his failings as a father. Nobody is saying
that if he were a better president, the first daughters wouldn't have done
this.
>And FWIW, I *do* think that folks have gone way overboard in
>their reaction to the Bush girls and their attempts to gain
>access to booze.
>The thing is, it's news, NOT because they did it -- millions
>of youths their age do what they did -- it's news because of
>who their father is. The most powerful politician in the US
>-- if not the world. I don't personally think their actions
>reflect on him, but I sure can see where a lot of folks
>MIGHT think that.
It's news because Americans like gossip. Fact is, the actions of Martin
Sheen's family get news coverage too. Gossip.
>> (2) where did Bush say that he "wants to lead the country back to family
>> values?" I remember him saying that he wanted to restore *dignity* to the
>> White House, but not what you said.
>If I misspoke myself on that one, I apologize. My point
>remains the same however. Whether it's "family values" or
>*dignity*, when you set yourself up as a leader using terms
>that fall into that huge arena of moralistic intent, you
>look a whole lot better at doing the job when you keep your
>own house clean.
I think it's pretty clear that "restore dignity to the WH" means "I am
going to behave." It doesn't mean, "Nobody who is related to me will ever
do anything wrong."
>> >> Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family matter?
>> >Vilified?! Good lord. He should be lauded. Charlie's
>> >right. It's nobody's business but the family's. The
>> >Sheen's never set themselves up as moral leaders.
>> When did Bush?
>Bush is your president. If a POTUS can't be seen to be as
>providing, for want of other terms, "moral leadership and
>dignity" ... well, who the heck can?
Parents? Religious leaders?
> It's the highest
>elected office in your country. Your people put him there by vote.
Right. People voted for him because they wanted taxes cut and government
reduced and such, not because they wanted him raising their children.
>Based on that, are you implying that Bush and Martin Sheen
>share equally in providing moral leadership to Americans?!
Sure, but not in the sense you mean. Only in the negative sense -- neither
of them are responsible for doing that.
Kenneth Brody
First, she wasn't being chaperoned by federal agents at the time she broke
the law. Second, her father didn't sign into law mandatory sentencing for
such crimes. Third, her father and grandfather didn't tell the world that
he kept his own alcohol-related arrest hidden from his daughters because
he felt they didn't need to know about that sort of thing. Fourth, her
father isn't trying to get the press to squash the story.
Does the story of Bush's daughters deserve the high publicity it's getting?
Perhaps not. Is it newsworthy? Definitely yes.
--
+---------+----------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth | kenb...@bestweb.net | "The opinions expressed |
| J. | | herein are not necessarily |
| Brody | http://www.bestweb.net/~kenbrody | those of fP Technologies." |
+---------+----------------------------------+-----------------------------+
GCS (ver 3.12) d- s+++: a C++$(+++) ULAVHSC^++++$ P+>+++ L+(++) E-(---)
W++ N+ o+ K(---) w@ M@ V- PS++(+) PE@ Y+ PGP-(+) t+ R@ tv+() b+
DI+(++++) D---() G e* h---- r+++ y?
RL
morality, and being better than their predecors, then we'll get on their
cases too. If you aren't able to see the difference in this, than no
amount of explaining it is likely to make you change your mind.
One other thing--I think the Sheens have a better grasp of English
syntax than Dubya. I just wanted to point that out.
Will Nordmeyer
"Kenneth Brody" <kenb...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:3B2427A5...@bestweb.net...
> Will Nordmeyer wrote:
> >
> > To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
> >
> > Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got arrested
for
> > burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
> > morals?
> >
> > Should Charlie be vilified for stating that it's a personal family
matter?
> >
> > Why wasn't it on the front page? She's the daughter and granddaughter
of 2
> > very big celebrities.
>
> First, she wasn't being chaperoned by federal agents at the time she broke
> the law.
They've protected Presidents while the presidents did illegal activities
too.
Second, her father didn't sign into law mandatory sentencing for
> such crimes.
And what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make what she did
worthy of national front page coverage. No other 19 year old in Texas gets
that coverage for trying to buy alcohol with someone else's ID.
> Third, her father and grandfather didn't tell the world that he kept his
own alcohol-related arrest hidden from his daughters
> because he felt they didn't need to know about that sort of thing.
SO? It's a personal family matter.
> Fourth, her father isn't trying to get the press to squash the story.
>
Sure he is... Charlie said the same thing that came out of the White
House... "it's a personal family matter". He's allowed that statement but
Bush isn't? Why the hypocricy?
> Does the story of Bush's daughters deserve the high publicity it's
getting?
> Perhaps not. Is it newsworthy? Definitely yes.
Why is it newsworthy? WHy is it any more newsworthy than anyone else?
Because she happens to be the daughter of the president? A position SHE did
not seek. Media attention SHE did not seek?
Will Nordmeyer
"RL" <Isabe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4775-3B2...@storefull-222.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Well, when Charlie or Martin start talking about restoring dignity and
> morality, and being better than their predecors, then we'll get on their
> cases too. If you aren't able to see the difference in this, than no
> amount of explaining it is likely to make you change your mind.
>
> One other thing--I think the Sheens have a better grasp of English
> syntax than Dubya. I just wanted to point that out.
>
I won't argue that. GWB has a great gift for mangling a clear english
sentence (unless it's scripted I believe).
Chris Crandall
: I remember that too. I didn't think it was self-centred tho,
: I thought he was just speaking his mind -- the guy has a job to
: do ... he's a sports figure. I'd be surprised if his contract
: stipulated being a role model.
I wouldn't. Lots of hig-profile contracts contain morals clauses.
For example, if arrested for pedophilia, the team could drop him.
Chris Crandall
: Harry Truman ran a hardware store one time, didn't he? Out
: in the mid west? At that time, did folks then demand that
: all hardware store owners be as responsible as Truman was
: for providing leadership (of whatever kind) to Americans?
Ouch. If only the ignorance of history displayed here meant we were
condemned to repeat H. S Truman's presidency.
President Truman co-ran a haberdashery with an old army buddy. In Kansas
City. Kansas City, Missouri. The business did not succeed, and after
awhile, Truman elected as a Jackson County "judge". This role did not
require legal training (which he did not have), but rather served as a
magistrate and bureaucrat. Truman did, however, study for a couple of
years at a night law school.
Although this job had to be approved for Truman by the corrupt political
machine of Thomas Pendergast, Truman is widely seen as independent of the
machine, and no intimations of corruption have been supported. Truman ran
for Senate from Missouri, was elected twice, and then served as VP during
FD Roosevelt's last term--becoming President when FDR died 12 weeks into
his fourth and final term.
You could look it up.
ing
>
> ing (ing.b...@sympatico.ca) wrote:
> : Harry Truman ran a hardware store one time, didn't he? Out
> : in the mid west? At that time, did folks then demand that
> : all hardware store owners be as responsible as Truman was
> : for providing leadership (of whatever kind) to Americans?
>
> Ouch. If only the ignorance of history displayed here meant we were
> condemned to repeat H. S Truman's presidency.
>
> President Truman co-ran a haberdashery with an old army buddy. In Kansas
> City. Kansas City, Missouri.
In a feeble attempt to defend my own ignorance..... I'm a
Canuck who wasn't old enough to read papers when Truman was
around ... however, I *did* know he ran a store of some sort
so I'll take half a point for that. We may not have all the
tiny details of American history memorized up here, but
we're pretty much up on the big things. So OK. A
haberdashery it was, not a hardware store.
The business did not succeed, and after
> awhile, Truman elected as a Jackson County "judge". This role did not
> require legal training (which he did not have), but rather served as a
> magistrate and bureaucrat. Truman did, however, study for a couple of
> years at a night law school.
Well, lots of folks' businesses fail. No crime in that.
Might have been around the Great Depression time it happened
(I'm guessing) ... folks might not have had a whole lot of
bucks to spend on clothes. That could've been the reason it
failed. So then he gets elected to a judicial position.
Which means people put him there. No crime in that either.
Only means voters thought him capable.
>
> Although this job had to be approved for Truman by the corrupt political
> machine of Thomas Pendergast, Truman is widely seen as independent of the
> machine, and no intimations of corruption have been supported.
There ya go. No intimations of corruption supported. From
all I've read about Harry, (which isn't a bunch, I'll admit)
I kind of liked him. He was "jes plain folk" who had to okay
dropping the big bombs on Japan. I'm sure he thought more
than twice about it ... even though he said he never lost
sleep after it was done. And I'm not sure if that sign on
his desk "the buck stops here" was an apocryphal tale or not
... but it was a good one, nevertheless. Sure would like to
see that sign brought back out and placed on more leaders
desks these days ... not just in your country, but mine too.
Truman ran
> for Senate from Missouri, was elected twice, and then served as VP during
> FD Roosevelt's last term--becoming President when FDR died 12 weeks into
> his fourth and final term.
>
> You could look it up.
I suppose I could, but what I remember about him is through
the mists of time. We are quite well educated about
American history since it was required study when I went to
school ... we just get the teensy details confused
sometimes, maybe it's my age though. I do remember reading
that he played piano himself and was extremely proud of his
daughter's somewhat dubious singing voice .... that he
beamed with pleasure whenever he attended her recitals.
That image kind of warms my heart -- dad's being proud of
their daughters. Brings to mind a Rockwellian scene,
almost.
Cheers
ing
Mary Messall
<Truman as a Jackson County judge>
> Although this job had to be approved for Truman by the corrupt political
> machine of Thomas Pendergast, Truman is widely seen as independent of the
> machine, and no intimations of corruption have been supported. Truman ran
> for Senate from Missouri, was elected twice, and then served as VP during
> FD Roosevelt's last term--becoming President when FDR died 12 weeks into
> his fourth and final term.
I wouldn't want to intimate corruption, certainly, but I don't think you
could be in Kansas City at the time and be actually *independent* of the
machine... I'm from Kansas City, and family tradition has it that a
relative (great uncle? great great grandpa? Fifth cousin thrice removed?
I'd have to check my Mom's geneology files) named Vincent Messall, who
was very definitely a part of the Pendergast machine, talked Truman into
running for the Senate by basically promising him full support...
So that's my claim to fame.
-Mary
Stephen Fuld
news:3B251E...@ups.edu...
>
> I wouldn't want to intimate corruption, certainly, but I don't think you
> could be in Kansas City at the time and be actually *independent* of the
> machine... I'm from Kansas City, and family tradition has it that a
> relative (great uncle? great great grandpa? Fifth cousin thrice removed?
> I'd have to check my Mom's geneology files) named Vincent Messall, who
> was very definitely a part of the Pendergast machine, talked Truman into
> running for the Senate by basically promising him full support...
>
> So that's my claim to fame.
Well, I'm impressed! :-) But given the new data that all humans descended
from a modest sized group in one section of Africa between something like 10
and 40 thousand years ago, I think you are my 1,000th cousin, once removed
:-).
--
- Stephen Fuld
Chris Crandall
: In a feeble attempt to defend my own ignorance..... I'm a
: Canuck who wasn't old enough to read papers when Truman was
: around ..
Yeah, I caught the .ca on your address.
Of course, if you want to talk about how Preston Manning got ousted by
Stockwell Day, and how Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney are trying to make a
comeback . . . well, we'll have to find somewhere else to talk about it.
Joe Clark. He just makes me laugh.
Scott Stevenson
wrote:
Mary,
There is a Victor Messall mentioned several times in the David
McCullough book "Truman"--you might want to check it out.
take care,
Scott
ing
Hey listen! Never look a gift horse in the mouth ... the
antics up here are gonna keep the satiric politico shows
going for years. Half the time the evening news could
easily be mistaken for an episode of
This Hour Has 22 Minutes.
Oh ... and it's not *Stockwell* Day ... it's Doris. We had
a referendum on that - close to 1.5 million agreed. Still
gotta sign the papers though.
>
> Joe Clark. He just makes me laugh.
Wish I could say that. Consider the pain of having to vote
for Joe 'cause nobody better was running. That's when you
know you're really hurting, son!
ing
Bonbon
>Canuck who wasn't old enough to read papers when Truman was
>around ... however, I *did* know he ran a store of some sort
>so I'll take half a point for that. We may not have all the
>tiny details of American history memorized up here, but
>we're pretty much up on the big things. So OK. A
>haberdashery it was, not a hardware store.
>
Sadly, Canadians seem to be much more knowledgable about US government than we
are about Canadian. I wonder why that is.
Bonbon
Mary Messall
/me is confused. You go to KU (hey, I'm working for them this summer)
but you talk about Canadian politics?
-Mary
Mary Messall
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:38:43 GMT, Mary Messall <mmes...@ups.edu>
> wrote:
> >I'd have to check my Mom's geneology files) named Vincent Messall, who
> >was very definitely a part of the Pendergast machine, talked Truman into
> >running for the Senate by basically promising him full support...
> McCullough book "Truman"--you might want to check it out.
Victor, Vincent, one of them "V" names... That's very exciting,
actually. I think I will.
-Mary
BobMac
This partly explains Toby's disastrous little interlude with
the Indonesians. If you take the definition of a hick to be
an extremely narrow experience of the world (nothing beyond
the valley he was born in) then the biggest hicks in the
world now come from the largest, most richly cultured
cities. Most of us will remember the New Yorker's map of the
United States, with a huge NYC, a tiny LA, and a vague empty
space in between? That's the concept.
(Aside: there is an influential Parisian publisher who once
put out 14 novels one year, all set in the same municipal
ward of Paris. This may be a world's record for total
hickdom.)
Toby, having grown up and lived at one of the centres of
civilization, doesn't really have a grip on what goes on
outside his own little world.
Canadians, however, with the exception of most of our
journalists, pay attention to the world, because we have to.
BobMac
BobMac
Well, Mulroney may have a tiny role in public life, but he
will never be elected to anything again. His domestic
economic management was lousy, and his international efforts
were suicidal.
>
> Joe Clark. He just makes me laugh.
Joe was that first western leader to try to reduce his
government's deficit after the spending craze of the 70s,
did you know that? His first budget was defeated when the
third party was forced to choose between the longstanding
gentlemen's agreement for these situations, and a chance at
self promotion. We've been paying interest, and lately
principal on Ed Broadbent's egotism ever since.
JC's current public profile owes little to his actual
career, and more to a couple of badly run newspapers who
have never forgiven him for success without their
permission.
BobMac
Linda
"Will Nordmeyer" wrote ...
> "ing" wrote ...
> > Will Nordmeyer wrote:
> > > To all of you bashing GWB for Jenna & Barbara's mistakes with alcohol:
> > > Does the fact that Martin Sheen's 16 year old granddaughter got
arrested
> for
> > > burglary reflect badly on Martin's morals? Charlie's morals? or HER
> > > morals?
> > Are you totally incapable of differentiating between a man
> > who sits as the highest elected official in a country whose
> > citizens often refer to that elected person as "the leader
> > of the free world" - a man who ran for office on a platform
> > where he stated he wants to lead the country back to "family
> > values" .... and .... a TV/movie actor?
> I'm just seeing if there is fairness here. BUSH is being hammered because
> his daughters drink... So I asked if you were going to hold the Sheen's
to
> the same standard - they are famous people too.
as a parent, i see the bigger problem as the fake IDs, not the fact that the
girls drink. the fake ID shows premeditation and planning. drinking or
attempting to purchase a drink could be construed as a typical teenage
mistake if it were a spur-of-the-moment occurrence, but arranging for and
paying for a fake ID adds to the seriousness of the crime. did i drink
before i was of legal age (which back in the old days was 19 in arizona...)?
no, however i was admittedly the exception among my peers. did my daughter
drink before she was 21? probably yes. did she try to do it in a public
place by producing illegal, falsified state governmental documents? ummm,
nope. she knew better. her spirit of moral courage kept her from crossing
that line at least. one would hope that the president of the united states
who says:
"We must give our children a spirit of moral courage,
because their character is our destiny. Our schools
must support the ideals of parents, elevating
character and abstinence from afterthoughts to
urgent goals."
would practice what he preaches, as it were.
linda
ing
>
> Chris Crandall wrote:
> > Yeah, I caught the .ca on your address.
> > Of course, if you want to talk about how Preston Manning got ousted by
> > Stockwell Day, and how Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney are trying to make a
> > comeback . . . well, we'll have to find somewhere else to talk about it.
> > Joe Clark. He just makes me laugh.
>
> /me is confused. You go to KU (hey, I'm working for them this summer)
> but you talk about Canadian politics?
Don't know what KU stands for (Kentucky Univ. or Kansas??)
but whatever it is, I'll assume it's in the U.S., so I'm
confused as to why you're confused.
Is talk of, or knowledge about, politics outside the US
really that much of a rarity? If it is, I'm astonished.
ing
Linda
> "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message
> > Second, her father didn't sign into law mandatory sentencing for
> > such crimes.
> And what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make what she did
> worthy of national front page coverage. No other 19 year old in Texas
gets
> that coverage for trying to buy alcohol with someone else's ID.
um, no she didn't just "borrow" someone else's ID. she had it made with a
fake last name, address and birthdate, but her first name and picture.
linda
ing
>
> Sadly, Canadians seem to be much more knowledgable about US government than we
> are about Canadian. I wonder why that is.
>
FWIW, I've found most Americans are fairly parochial in
their views.
If it doesn't take place within their territorial borders,
or if it doesn't involve decisions that may revolve around
questions like "should we send in the military" ... they
don't really pay that much attention.
There's a national satirical news show here called "This
Hour Has 22 Minutes" -- a segment of which is "TALKING TO
AMERICANS!!!" <caps
are part of it> .... where a Canadian comedian, posing as a
newscaster/commentator, visits well-known American
universities, interviews students and professors on the
campus and convinces them to sign petitions to, for
instance, ban the seal hunts in Saskatchewan. They sign in
*droves*! This segment of the show is one of the most
popular. Canucks just hoot over it.
ing
ing
>
> Canadians, however, with the exception of most of our
> journalists, pay attention to the world, because we have to.
>
tsk, tsk. I'd argue with your exception of our journalists, Bob.
For the most part, they pay pretty solid attention. CBC's middle
east coverage has been terrific considering the way their budget's
been hacked almost to death. What's more, it's way more even-handed
and objective reporting than you get from the American
newschannels (CNN in particular).
You're right, Canadians pay attention to the world because
we have to --- and we get a huge amount of that information
from our own journalists, print, radio and TV, who've been
assigned to countries
all over the world. I think we're pretty well-served that
way.
ing
Will Nordmeyer
"Linda" <li...@myinvestment.com> wrote in message
news:9g5j5l$udn$1...@nntp1-cm.news.eni.net...
fake as in forged... it was fake as in somebody elses. It WAS a legitimate
state document. It weren't illegal, or falsified, it just weren't HERS.
I'm sure he does practice what he preaches... BUT - does that mean his kids
listened? As you mentioned - your daughter probably drank before she was
21. does that mean you didn't at least TRY to give her a 'spirit of moral
courage' or does it mean that she maybe made a bad choice?
Will Nordmeyer
NOT a fake... Even here in the NG, Cory who is about the biggest Bush
disliker around, acknowledged that it was not a "FALSE" ID, but someone
elses ID.
Unless Cory's posted a retraction which I missed... which would REALLY
surprise me - to have missed it.
Chris Crandall
: /me is confused. You go to KU (hey, I'm working for them this summer)
: but you talk about Canadian politics?
I'm a professor at KU. I spent the last three months in Vancouver.
But Joe Clark, Stockwell Day, Preston Manning? Every American should know
about these guys.
Don't get me started about Kim Campbell!!!
-Chris
Note to Clueless: These are all Candian politicians--none of whom slightly
resemble the politics, character, or *charisma* of TWW's portrayals of US
politicos. All of these politicians are, by Canadian standards,
conservative, although by US standards, they would be center-right.
Stephen Fuld
news:9g3dm0$4su$1...@news.cc.ukans.edu...
> Joe Clark. He just makes me laugh.
Not Canadian, but my biggest recollection of Clark (I believe it was him)
was when the Canadians hid several American's in their embassy in Iran so
that the mob couldn't get them. He was on TV here a lot then. I remember
thinking "How very Canadian!". Just doing very good things, very quietly,
not making a fuss, and maybe a little embarrassed at the fuss made over
them. I still have warm feelings just thinking about it.
--
- Stephen Fuld
Semmens
"Will Nordmeyer" <will-...@kimmoore.org> wrote in message
news:%OtV6.180$Zt6....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Linda" <li...@myinvestment.com> wrote in message
> news:9g5k5l$v24$1...@nntp1-cm.news.eni.net...
> > "Will Nordmeyer" wrote
> > > "Kenneth Brody" wrote in message
> > > > Second, her father didn't sign into law mandatory sentencing for
> > > > such crimes.
> > > And what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make what she
> did
> > > worthy of national front page coverage. No other 19 year old in Texas
> > gets
> > > that coverage for trying to buy alcohol with someone else's ID.
> >
> > um, no she didn't just "borrow" someone else's ID. she had it made with
a
> > fake last name, address and birthdate, but her first name and picture.
> >
> > linda
> >
> Where's that been said? Everything I've read said it was someone else's
ID.
> NOT a fake... Even here in the NG, Cory who is about the biggest Bush
> disliker around, acknowledged that it was not a "FALSE" ID, but someone
> elses ID.
Barbara Bush got caught last fall in Connecticut using a fake ID that had
her first name, but used "Pierce" (coincidentally her grandmother Bush's
maiden name) as her last name, along with a false address. She was not
arrested but the bartender confiscated it.
AFAIK yes, Jenna was "borrowing" someone else's ID when she got caught in
Austin.
Laura
BobMac
then leader of the opposition, Appalling Pierre Trudeau, was
ripping him daily about what he was going to do about this
international crisis. Trudeau, as leader of the opposition,
was briefed in about this, and knew exactly what was going
on. He *knew* that Clark couldn't answer without blowing the
reem. APT didn't care whether he got the real answer,
endangering the lives of the Americans (and, just
incidentally, the Canadians in the embassy) or if he just
got his face on TV looking superior.
BobMac
BobMac
>
> BobMac wrote:
> >
>
> > Canadians, however, with the exception of most of our
> > journalists, pay attention to the world, because we have to.
> >
>
> tsk, tsk. I'd argue with your exception of our journalists, Bob.
> For the most part, they pay pretty solid attention. CBC's middle
> east coverage has been terrific considering the way their budget's
> been hacked almost to death. What's more, it's way more even-handed
> and objective reporting than you get from the American
> newschannels (CNN in particular).
>
True. I just wish some of them could track a gutshot
elephant through four feet of snow. BTW, remember the
headline in the Toronto Global Minion, "Joe Who?" It was
written by somebody whose job was to know who Clark was.
They were utterly exposed in their blinkered incompetence
that week, and they have never forgiven Clark for being the
spot marked X where their trousers fell down in public.
ing
>
> True. I just wish some of them could track a gutshot
> elephant through four feet of snow.
You're referring to Stock Day's on-going problems, right? <g>
ing
BobMac
Well, if you consider almost any story, they are extremely
vulnerable to the first person to give them a good quote.
They have the attention span of a mayfly. Even Barbara Frum
said that the degree of groupthink that goes on is
troubling, even though she agreed with most of it.
Look at Telegdi's recent troubles: he raised a valid point
about immigration law, but the press latched on to one
phrase in it, and politely sank a troublesome backbencher,
so that the government doesn't have to answer the objections
that he (and some very respected human rights organizations)
raised.
Nobody has mentioned that Tom Wappel's entire punishment for
repudiating the constitution was to sign a mendacious
apology and issue a hypocritical press statement.
In the Somalia affair, the punishment handed out has been in
inverse proportion to the responsibility for what was done.
Not one newspaper, except, occasionally, the Toronto Sun has
a correspondent who has a clue about military matters. We
had to take three shots at getting a Hercules to East Timor;
they've Never followed up on that.
We had, here in Ontario, the biggest teachers' strike in the
history of North America. Most newspaper stories were
rehashed press releases from the government, and mangled
quotes from union leaders, completely unanalysed for
consistency or truth. I'm neither a teacher nor an
investigative reporter, but I had better sources on that
than the people writing front page stories for the Minion
and analysis for the Tubby, and I wasn't even looking for
information. (To be fair, neither were the reporters.)
There has hardly been a whisper about the fact that North
America is about to have a critical shortage of nurses and
teachers. In Ontario, it's going to be worse than most
places.
But Bush's daughters get done for drinking underage? Wow!
They're all over that story! Just as fast as they can retype
the AP wire copy!
BobMac
It's you're fault... you got me started.
Linda
"Semmens" wrote
> "Will Nordmeyer"
> > "Linda" <rote in message
sorry will, guess i got my "fake id's held by the bush daughters" mixed up.
my mistake.
linda
Stephen Fuld
news:3B276C40...@home.com...
Thanks for that information. I didn't know that. It makes me think even
more highly of him. And even I, as a lowly American, thought that Trudeau
was far to full of himself (and that Quebec separatist junk) to be good for
most of the country.
--
- Stephen Fuld
ing
>
> ing wrote:
> >
> > You're referring to Stock Day's on-going problems, right? <g>
>
> Well, if you consider almost any story, they are extremely
> vulnerable to the first person to give them a good quote.
True. This is a growing phenomenon in the last 7-10 years
it seems.
Turns out we aren't so different from any other country with
media ruled by the 6-second soundbite.
> Look at Telegdi's recent troubles: he raised a valid point
> about immigration law, but the press latched on to one
> phrase in it, and politely sank a troublesome backbencher,
> so that the government doesn't have to answer the objections
> that he (and some very respected human rights organizations)
> raised.
I think his objections would have carried a lot more weight if
the person he'd stood up for hadn't been a Nazi in a former life.
Hard to feel sympathy for a nazi. Still, I see your point.
Shouldn't be left up to a Minister to pull citizenship.
>
> Nobody has mentioned that Tom Wappel's entire punishment
.....
Wappell is dead in the water. Write him off, even though the
arrogant scumbag is gonna collect a higher salary till
the next election. The elderly vote alone will sink him.
>
> In the Somalia affair, the punishment handed out has been in
> inverse proportion to the responsibility for what was done.
This is true.
>
> Not one newspaper, except, occasionally, the Toronto Sun has
> a correspondent who has a clue about military matters.
If that's true, I'm surprised. Mostly 'cause I didn't think
Sun readers had IQ's high enough to absorb military matters.
Didn't Gen. MacKenzie write a few articles for the Star, or
some
magazine before he had that breakdown? I could be wrong on
that.
We
> had to take three shots at getting a Hercules to East Timor;
> they've Never followed up on that.
Well, I don't know -- don't blame the media for all that --
I
wouldn't be surprised if access to docs through the FIA was blocked
by the feds. Mind you, if it was, we should've heard about *that*.
>
> We had, here in Ontario, the biggest teachers' strike in the
> history of North America.
Don't get me started on Mike Harris, dear.
Smoke comes out my ears.
> ....I had better sources on that
> than the people writing front page stories for the Minion
> and analysis for the Tubby, and I wasn't even looking for
> information. (To be fair, neither were the reporters.)
The story ain't over yet. I don't read Tubby's paper, it makes
me nauseous ... so can't comment. I thought the Star gave
pretty good coverage on the issue - ongoing as it is, right
now.
>
> There has hardly been a whisper about the fact that North
> America is about to have a critical shortage of nurses and
> teachers. In Ontario, it's going to be worse than most
> places.
A bit more than a whisper.
Stories/articles/commentary in G&M and Star over the past three/four
days stating exactly what you say on the nurses issue. I'm
waiting for Mike to tell me "we should be grateful" and "we
got it good". <sigh>
>
> But Bush's daughters get done for drinking underage? Wow!
> They're all over that story! Just as fast as they can retype
> the AP wire copy!
Well, yeah -- that WAS a surprise, having it hit the
front pages. You really gotta wonder. Surely editors
didn't need
those colour photos and breathless reportage to bump sales!
It was news, but not *front* page news, it should've been
way-in-the-backpages news.
I thought the McVeigh coverage went way over the top too.
> It's you're fault... you got me started.
S'okay. We are a growing group of ranters and with good reason.
Actually, it's a relief to find out I'm not the only
one feels somewhat the way you do. Without access to the occasional
glass of home-made vino (screw the LCBO) and CBC radio to
keep me
sane, I'd pack it in.
ing
Ann Keitz
<s.f...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Thanks for that information. I didn't know that. It makes me think even
>more highly of him. And even I, as a lowly American, thought that Trudeau
>was far to full of himself (and that Quebec separatist junk) to be good for
>most of the country.
But Trudeau was against the separatists -- I'm not sure what you're
getting at there....
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Will Nordmeyer
:-) Not that I am excusing what they DID do... She does deserve pretty
much whatever the judge sentences her to (life imprisonment might be a bit
excessive for example)...
>
>
ing
Anne's right -- Trudeau was a staunch anti-separatist. He's
the PM who invoked the War Measures Act against the FLQ back
in '69 - maybe it was 1970 -- can't quite remember exact
date now. The October Crisis, it was called.
No matter what people's opinion of him - good or bad -- most
folks agree he was memorable.
ing
Stephen Fuld
news:3B28C330...@sympatico.ca...
Well, while he certainly was memorable, I guess not memorable enough to me
such that I didn't remember his position on Quebec separatism. Appologies
to all, especially the late Mr. Trudeau.
P.S. His wife was quite memorable too :-).
--
- Stephen Fuld
Linda
"Will Nordmeyer" wrote
"Linda" wrote
> > sorry will, guess i got my "fake id's held by the bush daughters" mixed
> up.
> > my mistake.
> > linda
> Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed a big difference in what
happened.
> :-) Not that I am excusing what they DID do... She does deserve pretty
> much whatever the judge sentences her to (life imprisonment might be a bit
> excessive for example)...
well maybe making her drink until she passes out and then wake up with a big
'ol hangover with loud music playing nearby....sure did curtail my affection
for alcohol!
linda