Big Brother 11's Natalie Martinez and Survivor 19: Samoa's Russel Hantz-A comparison in Deception (with Survivor Spoilers).
Hunter
was roundly (and I after doing extensive research found very
unfairly) disliked who almost won that game show, Natalie Martinez
who lied a lot (strange thing to hold against someone in a game in
which you have to lie) and supposedly schemed too much (another
strange thing to complain about) and acted childishly making herself
a irritation to the audience who watched her antics on the live feeds
and "Big Brother After Dark" (its a shame the logistics of "Survivor"
doesn't allow for real time Internet broadcast. The technology isn't
quite there yet, the expense would be prohibitive and you can't
control the contestants like you can in BB). The feeling against her
was such that a lot of what she supposedly said and did was falsely
attributed to her and actually most of the time it was someone else
who said/suggested it. This included essentially suggesting to poison
another contestant with red dye food coloring which that contestant
was potentially fatally allergic to and putting bleach in this same
housemates's contact lens solution both said joking by another
contestant (Lydia Tavera with the red dye and Kevin Campbell with the
bleach in contact lens solution) but she got blamed for it and
treated as if it was a serious threat leading to lynch mob type
feelings against her. Ironically in both cases it was Natalie
essentially saying no don't do that, but it was lost ignored in all
the Nat hate hysteria. It had people thinking she is not only that
way in the House, but she is actually like that outside of the game
when actually we know very little of her personal life and her real
history. A lot of people just don't like her as a person solely on
what she said and did-or in truth mostly on what they THOUGHT she
said and did in the house-in the house as if that is real.
Anyway near the end of the season of BB, I started to see promos for
the present "Survivor 19: Samoa" season and someone being touted as
the game's evil bad guy who now know as Russell. In the promos and in
the first episode we just saw he was doing everything Natalie really
did in the show but to me 10 times worse-and so far just as
effective, that is successful. I figured if people in BB hated
Natalie (I'm part of the apparently small minority who actually liked
her and her gameplay and understood it I believe) then they must be
having a foaming at the mouth death wish at this Russell in
"Survivor" to be consistent.
Now we have to be careful because there are two Russell's in
"Survivor Samoa". There is a big black guy in dredlocks on the Galu
tribe named Russell Swan but that is not the guy I mean. I am talking
about short, white bald Russell Hantz on the Foa Foa tribe.
Incidentally he happens to look somewhat like Russell Kairouz of Big
Brother 11. If they said they were related to each other I would
believe it. Yeah I know BB Russell Kairouz is of Lebanese Christian
Middle Eastern decent and Russell Hantz is from a white European
German one but racial backgrounds to judge relations isn't that
reliable anymore. Both guys are short bald and bearded often (BB
Russell has one on and off). The biggest differences is BB Russell
Kairouz is physically fit and powerful while Russell Hantz looks like
the heaviest thing he lifts are six packs of beer quite often. Back
to the comparison:
The worst thing Natalie Martinez of Big Brother 11 did was lie about
her age. She said she was 18 when she was actually 24. The purpose of
this was to get the others to underestimate her and not consider her
a threat. She could pull this off by her very young looks, her short
frame, the way she dressed (tomboyish) and how she acted, getting to
the point that the other houseguest complained that she acted like
she was 12 never mind 18. With the exception of one person, Kevin
Campbell (who from the middle to the end of the game was her ally),
they were all fooled for the entire game all nine weeks. Even Kevin
put aside his doubts most of the time seeing how she acted (he
immediately called her out on her age to himself at the very start of
the game, saying that she was no younger than 25 but kept it to
himself until near the end of the game but by then Natalie had acted
so childishly no one believed him). Lots of BB Fans took great
offense at this. Somehow it was wrong of her to lie about her age.
Contrary to the majority, I thought and I still think it was great
gameplay. It put people into a certain mindset about her immediately.
We treat 18 year olds differently than 24 year olds. The expectations
and tolerances of behavior are different. As I said they didn't
consider her a real threat, just a childish annoyance that they had
plenty of opportunity to vote off but didn't. In the meanwhile she
plotted and schemed getting other people to do her dirty work and
made several brilliant strategic moves, including coming up with the
Las Minute Lie (LML) to turn one dominant houseguest named Jeff to
vote out another, the aforementioned Russell K. and got her ally
Kevin to do it. She very skillfully lied thoughout the game, some say
often telling useless lies and even did useless things like cheated
at games like pool (it was solely for the housemates relaxation,
nothing competetive in BB) but I suspect it surved to further her
deliberate childishness. Probably contributing as part of her mind
game game play she stole and hid and used another player's gloves
they used for physical competition, something you are allowed to do
in "Big Brother". She was widely condemned for this. However, before
that another housemate Michelle Nonaan (who owned the gloves), stole
and hid another contestants glasses, Ronnie Talbott's, in retaliation
for what that Ronnie did to her (loudly "accidently" waking her). He
eventually found his glasses. For these actions and actions and
statements she NEVER said or did she ended up the villain of the
season to the point of even hatred and false accusations of plotting
poisonings and maiming. Eventually the biggest thing that came back
to haunt her in finale night were the Jury decided who got the
$500,000 prize and who got second place $50,000 was not the stealing
of gloves, not cheating at non BB games like pool and chess but lying
about her age there were also a few other factors but her lying about
her age was her greatest sin with at least three voters on the seven
person Jury (six actual contestants plus the voting public who got a
say in who won) contributing to her 5 votes to 2 votes loss. However,
it was her skillful lies that got her to the Final Two.
In "Survivor Samoa" Russell Hantz to garner sympathy to put people
into a sympathetic mind set about him claimed to be a Hurricane
Katrina survivor who lost his home and his German Shepherd dog Rocky
in the tragedy lying of course that he was from New Orleans but also
that he is a fireman. Like Natalie Martinez he also messed with
personal property, but not just merely stealing, hiding and using it,
but destroying it (secretly of course) to make the other castaways
miserable, namely the socks of Jasion Robinson (very a nice guy who I
liked immediately who if none of my favorite gals make it to the
finals, I would like to see him win among the guys, he is probably
"Survivor Samoa's version of Jordan Lloyd) and pouring out the water
canteens of all his tribemates (including his own of course to throw
of suspicion). The tribe woke up to the shock of all of their water
gone. So far for some reason no one suspects the "obvious" to us:
Someone emptied them (if they did I missed it) although one did say
someone drank all of his. They bitched and moaned justifiably but no
one pointed a finger. Jaison Robinson, the law student, complained
about the loss of his socks how he was getting blisters presumably
even though he has shoes on. I like the guy. Literally a "Tender
Foot" LOL! I'm probably the same way LOL! He sure destroyed the
"black man can't swim" myth! Apparently you can not only take and
hide other people's property as you could do in Big Brother with
Natalie Martinez taking and hiding Michelle Nonaan's gloves and
before that Michelle hiding Ronnie Talbott's glasses, you can destroy
someone else's property too. No voice from upon high like in BB to
question his behavior. He also is networking like mad spreading half
truths and lies. Some of his tribe mates are suspicious particularly
the Police officer Betsy Bolan and another female survivor Marisa
Calihan, the prettiest girl in "Survivor" before she got booted-for
speaking to everyone so quickly and she was on to him. It hasn't come
back to bite him yet since another tribemate, Marisa Calihan (who I
though was the overall prettiest girl on the island and wanted to win
on that shallow basis) was voted out immediately with another
tribemate Ashley who ironically bought his sob story hook, line and
sinker, getting the remaining votes. Russell got none.
It is only the first episode of "Survivor: Samoa" but I think I can
say this right now: Anyone who hated Natalie Martinez in BB for her
lying about her age messing with other people's property and
spreading descension in the House, to be consistent they MUST want
Russell Hantz to be shot at dawn! To sum up:
Natalie lied about her age to make the other house guest
underestimate her: Russell H. lied about being a victim of a national
tragedy that killed many people, including the death of a loved one
(his non existent dog Rocky) to garner sympathy. He didn't tell them
he was a rich guy who owns an oil company, just like Natalie didn't
tell anyone she was a Taekwondo champion.
Natalie stole and used someone's property to screw with her head (and
vengeance) and give them a disadvantage in competitions; Russell H.
destroyed other people's property, their clothing and dumped their
fresh drinking water, something not easily replaceable at will.
Natalie told many lies that was seemingly useless to sow confusion
but also to get someone evicted, several were successful in that
effort; Russell started networking and telling different versions of
the same story to other people about other people that were largely
not true I feel or taken out of context to get them voted off the
island. It was successful against Marisa Calihan, the first to be
voted off the island.
To be consistent, for those who hated Natalie Martinez you must want
something worse for Russell Hantz. And "Survivor" only just got
started! Oh how I wish there were live real time feeds over the
Internet for "Survivor" if not for myself (I didn't have it for BB)
but for others to report on!
Will Russell Hantz be another Natalie Martinez? Will he lie with
great cunning and good timing getting others to do her dirty work and
being underestimated every step of the way and make it to the
"Survivor" version of the F2 only to have his far more ugly lie
comeback to bite him; or will he be another Ronnie Talbott being too
smart for his own good and overplay his hand too fast and too soon
and gets booted in a few weeks (if not next week's episode
[9/24/09])?
Time will tell!
--
----->Hunter
"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
B.N.
That's a long post about stuff I've never seen, and waaaay too long to
read.
B.N.
madamS
"Hunter" <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2520a3a48...@news.optonline.net...
make. I will answer a few. As far as the age lie, no one can tell what would
have happened if she had told the truth. It is all conjecture. I personally
did not dislike her for telling that lie. I disliked her for telling that
lie and many others (LML, green room, etc.) and then calling other people
liars and talking about how she had her integrity and had played an
honorable and honest game. I have not seen Russell do that yet. Next
point-the stealing of the gloves should not have been allowed, but it was.
Michele walked out of the house without some of her property that she
brought with her. She always intended for Ronnie to get his glasses back.
It was just a rather childish answer to his earlier childish attacks on her.
Whether stealing the gloves was done to gain an advantage may make a
difference in whether or not it was smart game play, but you are talking
about why people dislike her. Most of us here do agree that she was a pretty
good player. She just really sucked when it came time to convince the jury
of that. I don't like thieves, and that includes Russell and Natalie. It
doesn't include Michele, since her action was a prank, and never meant to be
permanent, or Rupert, ironically enough, because he was under the impression
that TPTB wanted him to do it, and they probably did. And finally, the
differences between the way Russell and Natalie are perceived should take
into account the fact that we don't have feeds for Survivor. It might not
make a difference to YOU, because you seem to judge both people on what CBS
chooses to show you. And finally, No, I don't like Russell either. He can
not be bounced out of there quickly enough to please me. That doesn't mean I
> Russell Hantz to be shot at dawn!"
--
madamS
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Sir Winston Churchill
ALOOO
"Hunter" <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote
> To be consistent, for those who hated Natalie Martinez you must want
> something worse for Russell Hantz. And "Survivor" only just got
> started! Oh how I wish there were live real time feeds over the
> Internet for "Survivor" if not for myself (I didn't have it for BB)
> but for others to report on!
That was way too long to read the whole thing, especially because I suspect
your whole point was in this paragraph near the end. I didn't despise
Natalie the way most people did but I also wasn't entertained by her at all.
I disliked Ronnie and Chima more but there was entertainment in their
villainy. And I'll point to Janelle and Evel Dick as people whose behaviors
were much worse than Natalie's but there was something likeable about them.
I do think if a person condemns a particular act they should be consistent
with their condemnation *of that act* but it doesn't mean their attitude
toward the individual people will necessarily be identical.
diddy
f6d698...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com:
> That's a long post about stuff I've never seen, and waaaay too long to
> read.
>
> B.N.
>
follow. Interesting thoughts. But way too much on BB, becuz.. this is
SURVIVOR!! BB is just another lame reality show.
Mallard
wrote:
<snip>
It depends on whether their 'evilness' is gameplay or part of their
character. Dr. Wil Kirby (BB2) and this Russell character tell you
right off the bat they are going to lie, cheat, steal (and burn socks)
in the game so they can try to win it. Natalie cheating at pool/chess
isnt game strategy it's a look into her character.
(anyways that's my .02)
Ron
>
> That's a long post about stuff I've never seen, and waaaay too long to
> read.
>
> B.N.
Why don't you SNIP it before replying!?
Ron
> "B.N." <B...@comcast.net> wrote in news:6cdb91d0-25d7-426c-b22f-
> > read.
>
> > B.N.
>
> I think redundancies and thought wandering is what made it hard to
> follow. Interesting thoughts. But way too much on BB, becuz.. this is
> SURVIVOR!! BB is just another lame reality show.
Um, it was crossposted.....and if BB is a lame reality show, then what
is Survivor?
BTW, the latest season of BB had the highest ratings of any season.
do...@webtv.net
'The Big E' said:
"BTW, the latest season of BB had the highest ratings of any season."
I agree. The games are different...but BB is as tough as any reality
show out there due to the psychological component.
It's VERY tough.
Ron
I would do much better on Survivor except for the no food part.
Hunter
do...@webtv.net says...
You know, I thought about rebutting you as an answer to your post but
again, I think it would be better to have it as its own post. Suffice
to say here BB and Survivor have a LOT in common than you think. I do
agree, BB is VERY tough but "Survivor" has a strong psychological
component as well. It is a little more physical than Big brother, but
the mind game is just as an important factor in "Survivor" as it is
in BB.
Hunter
f6d698...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, B...@comcast.net says...(snip)
> > Will Russell Hantz be another Natalie Martinez? Will he lie with
> > great cunning and good timing getting others to do her dirty work and
> > being underestimated every step of the way and make it to the
> > "Survivor" version of the F2 only to have his far more ugly lie
> > comeback to bite him; or will he be another Ronnie Talbott being too
> > smart for his own good and overplay his hand too fast and too soon
> > and gets booted in a few weeks (if not next week's episode
> > [9/24/09])?
> >
> > Time will tell!
> > --
> > ----->Hunter
> >
> > "No man in the wrong can stand up against
> > a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
> >
> > -----William J. McDonald
> > Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
>
> That's a long post about stuff I've never seen, and waaaay too long to
> read.
>
> B.N.
That is why it is a long post, to describe stuff you and others in
this "Survivor" group never seen since I guess you and perhaps many
others didn't see "Big Brother" this past Summer (or perhaps any
other). There was a lot of background to fill so people would make
sense of the comparison I am making.
Similarly I went into some detail on what Russell Hantz did to make
sense of things to the "Big Brother" fans. Perhaps I pulled in a Few
BB fans out of curiosity if there is a Natalie M. like character to
root against.
Hunter
says...
As I said I was making between two characters in two shows that have
more or less the same strategy. If you never seen "Big Brother" then
you needed a background of what happened in BB to see what I meant.
After all, you didn't see BB so how do you get what I was trying to
convey?
Besides "Survivor" is a reality show just like BB is and some of the
premises and intent are comparable. They are not exactly the same of
course, but they are related and situations are similar. Compared to
BB Survivor is harder in terms of deprivation of creature comforts
and the challenges are generally much more physical but the two shows
are both based on the same things: Lies and betrayal. "Survivor" is
just more communal.
Hunter
ebfd23...@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, BigEL...@msn.com
says...
They are both reality shows, both BB and "Survivor" are quite
similar. I like both (as well as "The Amazing Race") The differences
are rather small actually when it comes to what the players have to
do to get ahead. They are not that different at all.
do...@webtv.net
Hunter said to me:
"You know, I thought about rebutting you as an answer to your post but
again, I think it would be better to have it as its own post.
Suffice to say here BB and Survivor have a LOT more in common than you
think. I do agree, BB is VERY tough but "Survivor" has a strong
psychological component as well. It is a little more physical than Big
brother, but the mind game is just as an important factor in "Survivor"
as it is in BB."
Well, Hunt...I agree...Survivor is a LOT more physical than BB.
Thee IS a psychological component to Survivor...but add that in with the
fatigue, lack of food, and poor living conditions...and many folks don't
'think straight.'
I understand and forgive the errors in BOTH games. They have to LIVE
with each other...it's not easy.
do...@webtv.net
Hey, Hunter, babe...in your signature quote:
"No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right
and keeps on acomin'."
I wonder why the MAN in the wrong stands up against up a FELLOW who is
right.
Man=bad
Fellow=good ?
Whaddaya think?
madamS
<do...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14550-4A...@storefull-3111.bay.webtv.net...
he's right and keeps on acomin'.
do...@webtv.net
I said to Hunter about his sig.:
"I wonder why the MAN in the wrong stands up against up a FELLOW who is
right.
Man=bad
Fellow=good ?
Whaddaya think?"
Dubya felt the need to clarify by saying:
"Man = fellow"
Thanks so much<sarcasm>...I KNEW that...it's just interesting that they
used 'fellow' for the man 'in the right'.
Yes...this IS all I've got to do.
:-) :-)
do...@webtv.net
I said about BB and Survivor:
"I understand and forgive the errors in BOTH games. They have to LIVE
with each other...it's not easy."
Dubya added:
"It is certainly hard enough to live with ONE other person..."
You forgot the rimshot. :-)
Oh, btw, does that also include your man servant 'Philipe'?
Hunter
You can say that about anything, but it is relevant. Tell me, if you
have two females one 18 and the other 24 you won't regard them
differently? Have preconcieved notions about them just based on their
ages? I think most people do. That was Natalie's point of the lie, to
get other people to think that she was younger than she was and
judging from what the houseguest said from their own mouths it
worked. They were also upset about it and held it against her. If it
was meaningless then it wouldn't had mattered to them, but it did,
because it made them underestimate her from the very start. Acting
childish was the point. Her acting that way wouldn't had been
credible if they knew she was 24. With them thinking she was 18 and
probably an immature 18 at that they didn't take the "kid" seriously
while unknown to them she was plotting things left and right and
creating disruption on the other side of the house.
That is also what I suspect the Tampax thing was about too to make
her seem younger than she is. Which is generally more believable? A
24 year old who doesn't know how to use a tampon or an 18 year old?
Great psychological game play. This game isn't about honesty. I don't
expect it and I accept that premise. The same with "Survivor". Both
games are designed to make you scheme and betray to get a cash
reward. You of course have to act accordingly. I certainly don't hold
it against people as if that is how they are outside the house.
> I disliked her for telling that
> lie and many others (LML, green room, etc.) and then calling other people
> liars and talking about how she had her integrity and had played an
> honorable and honest game. I have not seen Russell do that yet.
I think that is the major difference between you and me. I don't
mind the lies at all, not even the so called "pointless ones" because
they did have a point, to divide and conquer and sow confusion and
distrust on the other side, in this case the Jeff/Jordan and Russell
Michele side of the house. Both the LML and Green Room lies it was
strategic well timed lies in both cases, especially the LML. As I
read more-and I don't mean the posted comments but descriptions of
the scenes, looking at the scenes themselves-I respect her game more.
I appreciate her scheming.
In regards to honesty and integrity I think she meant that she didn't
turn against her allies, and she in fact didn't if you look at the
record of her votes to evict. She always supported her team members.
She used them but she never made an alliance deal with Jeff/Jordan
(both Jordan and and Nat agreed they hardly talked to each other) or
Michele or Russell to backstab Chima, Jessie, or Ronnie. She did stay
true to Kevin as well. She used him but again she didn't make any
secret deals with Jeff/Jordan or Russell and Michele to get rid of
him except during the final four and that as we know was a lie told
to Jordan and Michele to make them think they weren't together
anymore by putting Kevin up. She nominated Kevin at the end but as a
pawn for her real target Michele and she told Kevin she was going to
do that before the fact. It was brilliant. That is what she meant by
having honor and integrity. Did she plot and scheme lie about others?
Yes, she sure did but not those in her alliance. I don't hold it
against her at all that she lied about people, that is the central
tool of this game. Even Jordan lied to Kevin's face that she would
take him to the F2 and I don't hold it against her as a person one
bit She didn't lie much in the game because frankly she wasn't really
an active player until Jeff left. So I see the LML and Green room
lies and other lies as good game play, the LML took advantage of
Jeff's paranoia and his preconceived notion about Russell Kairouz and
the Green Room Lie divided and conquered especially near the end when
it fooled Jordan and Michele into thinking Kevin and Natalie weren't
allies anymore.
Natalie came to play the game and being a BB fan she knew what the
game was. I admire that and the more I actually go back and see what
she did the more I do admire it. She did do some bad game moves like
not helping Kevin by finding the key but went to gather more money
during the first Pandora's box; telling that bad lie about not being
able to win BB because she chosen to open the second Pandora's box;
Being so anti Michele because she betrayed Chima after swearing on
her husband that she didn't try to keep her on her side to get her
vote and calling her "The Devil" (again I suspect because of her
night terrors that probably scared her); rubbing her engagement in
Jessie's face by having Michele tell the jury about her engagement
knowing that Jessie would probably react by not giving her his vote.
So that was two votes there she lost and not keeping things civil
between her and Lydia. The vengeful side got the better of her.
>
> Next
> point-the stealing of the gloves should not have been allowed, but it was.
---
I agree it should be against the rules. I feel as I have said
many times it could lead to physical fights if people messed with
each other's stuff, but it was allowed under the rules at the time.
She even effectively asked permission form production if she could
hide things. She was given the answer of not BB house property but
she can personal property. So it seems with "Survivor" as well since
Jeff Probst didn't call out Russell Mantz for stealing and burning
Jaison Robinson's socks. We have no live feeds of course the the show
finished taping over a month ago, but I think we would had seen
footage of Probst informing him not to do it again if it was against
the rules-and we do have the history of Rupert Boneham stealing
people's shoes.
>
> Michele walked out of the house without some of her property that she
> brought with her. She always intended for Ronnie to get his glasses back.
> It was just a rather childish answer to his earlier childish attacks on her.
---
I think the key word is childish. That was her intent. Lying about
her age was just the beginning of it, acting out was part of it. She
played the immature act to the hilt. She soul had gave them back the
moment the game ended but I think the gloves would be mailed back to
Michele just like Kevin's sweat shirt was. One thing though: As
mentioned above Rupert Boneham stole his opponent's shoes in
"Survivor: Pearl Islands" and *sold* them to the natives to gain an
important advantage over them in a challenge. The thing is everyone
*loved* him for that (and that weren't the only things he took IIRC).
So it is not the act itself it is how the player is percieved. I
don't know but maybe, just maybe, Natalie Martinez is a "Survivor"
fan as well as a "Big Brother" fan and she remembered that
psychological tactic. And maybe that is why CBS through the
production companies of both Survivor and "Big Brother" still allow
it, maybe they are looking for another Rupert Boneham moment like
that. She still should give them back though LOL, and yes I still
think it should be banned. I am sure Russell Hantz remembers that
incident if he is a "Survivor" historian.
You see, it is all about context when I remember back in "Big
Brother"'s and now its sister game "Survivor"'s history and see other
people who have done similar things that Natalie has done (the things
she actually did that is-and not only got a pass from it are actually
LOVED for it. Man if Natalie Martinez pulled a Johnny Fairplay and
lied about a relative dying a lynch mob would had been formed
(Ironically though she is dead against swearing on relatives lives
and then breaking that oath. That is what set her off against
Michele). People need to put things in perspective.
>
> Whether stealing the gloves was done to gain an advantage may make a
> difference in whether or not it was smart game play, but you are talking
> about why people dislike her. Most of us here do agree that she was a pretty
> good player. She just really sucked when it came time to convince the jury
> of that. I don't like thieves, and that includes Russell and Natalie. It
> doesn't include Michele, since her action was a prank, and never meant to be
> permanent,
---
Actually it wasn't a prank in terms of practical joke but done in
anger for Ronnie deliberately waking her. And you know what? I don't
blame her at all really. My point originally was that Nat wasn't the
first one to take and hide things. Michele was.
>
> ...or Rupert, ironically enough, because he was under the impression
> that TPTB wanted him to do it, and they probably did. And finally, the
> differences between the way Russell and Natalie are perceived should take
> into account the fact that we don't have feeds for Survivor. It might not
> make a difference to YOU, because you seem to judge both people on what CBS
> chooses to show you.
----
Judging from what I dig up from the reports of the live feeds from
Joker's and Big brother updates and other sites. Also I am judging
her against the backdrop of previous houseguest and to me she is far
from the worst. Live feeds are important but I do think what are
reported in post were out of proportion and wrong. I have proven
several times that it was not Nat who wanted to put m&m's in
Michele's drink, it was Lydia but Nat got the blame for it That is
why I didn't trust what anybody posted without citing date time and
camera it or anything else happened. Also, I do think Nat is
getting a raw deal for doing saying things other house guest have
said in anger or jest. It seems Nat was singled out for it. At
anyrate as I have said, I am not going to judge her totally by what I
saw in the house. That is a persona. I will judge her character
outside of the house.
As I said, it is your and everybody else opinion on whether to like
the woman or not, but I will show what is inaccurate about what was
specifically said about her and also if she is singled out for
something most everyone else has done (and yes that is a legit
defense). For instance she got called out for picking her nose in
semi public, well all the house guest did that including Lydia, Jeff
and Ronnie (I am not talking about the update sites themselves but
the posters poster comments on those sites). Casey was sure worried
about doing it since he has a real life nose picking habit. But
Natalie was singled out for it, even some claimed that she ate hers.
Not true. It is the double standard that irks me.
Remember I got into this by trying to find out if Natalie really did
want to put red dye in Michele's drink. I found out that and a lot of
things were not true (she got blamed for what Lydia actually said
with Natalie actually saying no to it), that and I think her game
play is under appreciated. I am not saying she is perfect by no
means. Like the other houseguest she didn't understand Michele's
night terrors which contributed to, if not being the main factor of
her being called crazy by Nat and other houseguest or her shyness.
And she can be vindictive. She is one of these people that if you
have her as your friend she will be loyal to the hilt like she is
with Chima and back you no matter what, but if you get on her bad
side she won't forgive you. Michele found that out. Not an attractive
trait at least not the vindictive side of the coin. But so was Evel
Dick being vindictive against Jen and Nat never attacked anyone
physically like Dick, the contestant that I love to hate. I would
hope he isn't like that outside the house.
I'm just saying she wasn't nearly as bad as people think especially
if you accurately judge her in context of how the other houseguest
acted and said this season or past. And of course fairly judge her
gameplay. I don't believe the Nat we saw in the house is like the Nat
outside. What we saw was a character inside the house she created.
Why? Because the lie about her age fits more or less how she acted.
That's no accident. Again, she is not perfect with her vengeful side
of her, but I am willing to bet she isn't the bad person people think
she is.
>
> And finally, No, I don't like Russell either. He can
> not be bounced out of there quickly enough to please me. That doesn't mean I
> "MUST want Russell Hantz to be shot at dawn!"
----
Its called a joke. My point is that if people are upset over Natalie
Martinez lying about her age and stealing and using Michele Nonaan's
gloves in BB then people should be upset beyond measure that in
"Survivor" Russell Mantz lied about being a Katrina victim when so
many people died and stole and burned Jaison Robinson's socks to be
intellectually consistent. Right? I don't like him lying about being
a Katrina victim but if it garners sympathy for him he would have the
psychological edge and if it gets him far in the game, it is great if
shocking game play.
I wish there were live feeds on "Survivor" unfortunately logistics
won't allow it. I didn't get live fees for BB because I didn't have
the time for it but I would like to see it sometime. Maybe next July.
do...@webtv.net
Hunter, BABE...we LOVE you...but those 'War and Peace' length posts are
losing your audience.
You're obveeusly getting close to being like Sheldon in TBBT (The Big
Bang Theory). :-)
I respect your position...now just have fun.
You're a fun seeker, aren't ya?
:-)
Hunter
do...@webtv.net says...
I do agree that the living conditions are much tougher on Survivor it
is perhaps why Survivor winners get one mil while BB winners get only
half a mil A week on slop and is a metal room isn't as tough as
spending a month in the jungle mostly eating boiled rice with food
prizes to keep their strength up every week. And yes I do agree it
could addle the brain.
"Survivor" is tougher than BB overall, so we part in rare total
agreement.
shawn
wrote:
>In article <14550-4A...@storefull-3111.bay.webtv.net>,
>do...@webtv.net says...
>>
>> Hunter said to me:
>>
>> "You know, I thought about rebutting you as an answer to your post but
>> again, I think it would be better to have it as its own post.
>>
>> Suffice to say here BB and Survivor have a LOT more in common than you
>> think. I do agree, BB is VERY tough but "Survivor" has a strong
>> psychological component as well. It is a little more physical than Big
>> brother, but the mind game is just as an important factor in "Survivor"
>> as it is in BB."
>>
>> Well, Hunt...I agree...Survivor is a LOT more physical than BB.
>>
>> Thee IS a psychological component to Survivor...but add that in with the
>> fatigue, lack of food, and poor living conditions...and many folks don't
>> 'think straight.'
>>
>> I understand and forgive the errors in BOTH games. They have to LIVE
>> with each other...it's not easy.
>----
>I do agree that the living conditions are much tougher on Survivor it
>is perhaps why Survivor winners get one mil while BB winners get only
>half a mil A week on slop and is a metal room isn't as tough as
>spending a month in the jungle mostly eating boiled rice with food
>prizes to keep their strength up every week. And yes I do agree it
>could addle the brain.
I think the million versus hall a million has more to do with ratings.
If Big Brother could consistently pull in Survivor ratings I think CBS
would be willing to cough up the extra $500,000. Especially given that
BB runs for three nights a week. As it is I think BB pays the bills,
but it's not a huge money maker for CBS. It's just that it does well
enough that there's no need to try and find three new hours of
programming each week for the summer.
>"Survivor" is tougher than BB overall, so we part in rare total
>agreement.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The living conditions
alone make it tougher, then you add in the lack of food that occurs
many seasons and the tendency to have very physical challenges
compared to what Big Brother USA has. It makes for a much tougher game
even though it only lasts about half as long.
Hunter
"Fellow" in this case means a *good* man, a "mench", an average guy
standing up to a wrong. And that fellow, if he persist will win over
that wrong.
Here is a biography of the Texas Lawman:
It is a simple variation of good will always conquer evil, even if it
may take a long time with patience "...and keeps on acomin'".
--
----->Hunter
"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
-----William J. McDonald
Hunter
Surv...@hotmail.com says...
---
Exactly.